| 00:01.52 | eightyeight | ok. so, here's a question for all you god-fearing christians (of whom i am one (even though it might be after everyone has already gone home for the day)): |
| 00:03.02 | eightyeight | studying biological anthropology, you learn the origins of man. specifically, from sahelanthropous tchadensis. how does the biblical adam fit into this evolutionary bit? |
| 00:03.55 | eightyeight | i have a quote from the lds church that says "adam did not evolve" yet, according to science and the "theories of men", all humans evolved from chimpanzee |
| 00:04.14 | eightyeight | so, if i'm to believe in my faith, how do i meet these two points? |
| 00:10.20 | sjansen | quote from "the church" != doctrine |
| 00:10.42 | eightyeight | even if it comes from a general authority? |
| 00:12.15 | sjansen | Even if it's written by Talmage as he sat in the Salt Lake temple. |
| 00:13.19 | eightyeight | that's not what i was taught |
| 00:13.44 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, we have far too little revealed information about the creation to effectively use it as a yardstick to determine how close science has come to the truth. |
| 00:14.43 | eightyeight | i've been taught that the doctrine of the church is that adam was created by god, in the image of god, and did not evolve from chimpanzee |
| 00:15.04 | sjansen | Check the history of how D&C 138 was added, that's the process for something to gain recognition as doctrine. |
| 00:16.36 | eightyeight | so, are you saying that we have no doctrinal principle regarding the evolution or creation of adam? |
| 00:17.31 | eightyeight | http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=55bf8c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD |
| 00:17.58 | eightyeight | that seems quite authoritative. "the First Presidency issued the following in 1909, which expresses the Church's doctrinal position on these matters" |
| 00:18.46 | fugue88 | eightyeight: You're presuming that we have to fit Adam into that evolutionary chain. |
| 00:19.08 | fugue88 | That chain is founded on assumption based on phenotype. |
| 00:19.09 | eightyeight | fugue88: according to religion, we're all offspring of adam |
| 00:19.19 | fugue88 | No, you're earlier bit. |
| 00:19.28 | fugue88 | "how |
| 00:19.29 | fugue88 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 00:20.05 | fugue88 | I understand we're all offspring of Adam. |
| 00:20.25 | sjansen | Well, there's doctrine and then there's doctrine. I'm not talking about the Gospel According to McConkie, or the contents of someone's patriarchal blessing, I'm talking truth officially revealed to the whole church. I'm not aware of any official church statement that contradicts the theory of evolution. |
| 00:20.28 | eightyeight | as i understand it, either adam was created from the dust of the earth, or he was an evolutionary piece |
| 00:20.33 | fugue88 | I'm saying that there's no reason to believe that a taxonomy based on phenotypical similarity has anything at all to do with genotypical similarity. |
| 00:21.17 | eightyeight | sjansen: my previous link comes from the first presidency in 2002 |
| 00:21.26 | fugue88 | I think eightyeight's 1909 quote qualifies. |
| 00:21.34 | sjansen | What am I missing from your link? I don't see anything providing details of how Adam's body was created before his spirit joined it. |
| 00:21.56 | eightyeight | "It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men." |
| 00:22.01 | fugue88 | Oooohhh, I see your point sjansen . |
| 00:22.22 | fugue88 | I think. |
| 00:22.37 | eightyeight | i'm not looking for an argument. i'm looking for a crucial piece of the puzzle that is missing from my logical brain |
| 00:23.12 | eightyeight | i've always held the firm belief that god orchestrated the big bang all the way through evolution up to today. he operates under his own laws |
| 00:23.18 | sjansen | God created Adam in his own image does not preclude the possibility that God is really patient or tricky. I just don't see the conflict. |
| 00:23.37 | eightyeight | but, it seems the church is putting a furm foot down that adam is not part of this evolutionary bit |
| 00:23.51 | sjansen | The reality that species evolves does not in away reduce the power of God to guide all creation. |
| 00:23.52 | eightyeight | *firm |
| 00:24.03 | eightyeight | i don't question that in the least |
| 00:24.07 | sjansen | Does it? What did I miss? |
| 00:24.13 | eightyeight | i'm only concerned of adam |
| 00:24.13 | fugue88 | Species adapt according to their existing genes. |
| 00:24.35 | eightyeight | sjansen: what hole are you finding in the quote i just pasted? |
| 00:24.36 | fugue88 | When was the last time you saw a species split and gain a chromosome? |
| 00:24.49 | eightyeight | fugue88: within the past week? |
| 00:24.51 | sjansen | All I see is a reaffirmation that we were deliberately create by a loving Father in His own image. |
| 00:24.58 | fugue88 | eightyeight: What, the finches? |
| 00:25.06 | eightyeight | yes |
| 00:25.37 | fugue88 | Sorry, same species. The two populations successfully reproduced with each other. They had phenotypical variation, not a different set of chromosomes. |
| 00:26.21 | fugue88 | Or, in other words, different genes activated in the different populations, but those genes were already there in both |
| 00:26.24 | fugue88 | . |
| 00:26.54 | sjansen | Okay, related example: The New Testament contains a couple stories of Christ curing the blind. |
| 00:27.28 | fugue88 | waits to see where this is going.... |
| 00:27.37 | sjansen | In one case, he used spit to create mud and put it on the blind man's eyes before curing him. In another case, he just cured the man. |
| 00:29.11 | fugue88 | I don't get it. What's the relation? |
| 00:29.12 | sjansen | The difference was not Christ's power, but the person receiving the blessing. The physical ceremony probably increased the faith of the first man, while the second didn't need it. |
| 00:30.26 | eightyeight | i've never questioned the capability of god or how it was done. i'm questioning the doctrinal stance, if it exists, of the church, given the overwhelming evidence in the fossile and genetic record |
| 00:30.33 | sjansen | God is free to accomplish his goals any way he pleases. If one of those methods is something that looks kinda like evolution, who am I to judge? The details don't threaten God's existence or majesty. |
| 00:30.57 | fugue88 | Genetic record? What genetic record? All I'm aware is a phenotype record. |
| 00:31.04 | fugue88 | aware of* |
| 00:31.08 | eightyeight | the human genome project |
| 00:31.26 | fugue88 | That's a record of our evolution from chimps or something? |
| 00:31.35 | eightyeight | talking a swap of spit can provide the complete genetic trace back to "mitochrondrial eve" |
| 00:31.52 | fugue88 | Yep, knew that part. How's that relate us to chimps? |
| 00:31.57 | sjansen | Like I said, I'm not aware of any official church doctrine refuting evolution. There's a whole lot of opinion and interpretation, but that's not doctrine. |
| 00:32.27 | eightyeight | sjansen: well, i'm failing to see the hole in that quote i provided, i guess. seems pretty tight, like unto a dish. :) |
| 00:33.07 | eightyeight | fugue88: isn't mitochondrial eve a direct descendant of sahelanthropous, which was right after the break from chimp? or am i missing something? |
| 00:33.47 | fugue88 | eightyeight: I'd never heard that. I have heard that we can determine that the mDNA Eve was within the past 10,000 years or so. |
| 00:34.01 | fugue88 | This from an anthropology class at a liberal arts college, no less. |
| 00:34.31 | fugue88 | When do "they" say sahelanthropous was? |
| 00:34.42 | eightyeight | 6.5 my |
| 00:35.23 | eightyeight | i wish i had my papers with me. when i get home, i can give more details, but it is my understanding, so far, that sahelanthropous is the closest genetic fossil we have, to the break off chimp |
| 00:35.37 | fugue88 | Wikipedia is listing a differen mDNA estimate than 10,000: 270K-70K bp. |
| 00:35.39 | eightyeight | from that skull, is where the rest of us are aligned |
| 00:36.03 | fugue88 | How's that? Based on phenotype? |
| 00:36.17 | eightyeight | my professor failed to provide those details |
| 00:36.26 | fugue88 | Unfortunate. |
| 00:38.11 | eightyeight | i guess as the wikipedia article states, it's position in the hominid evolution is not widely accepted |
| 00:38.27 | eightyeight | my professer might be provided her opinions on the matter |
| 00:39.42 | eightyeight | whatever may be, she does present a solid argument. she shows skull casts dating further and further back, following the line of homo sapiens sapiens to homo heidelbergensis, homo erectus, etc, all the way back to sahelanthropus |
| 00:40.17 | fugue88 | But genotypical similarity implies phenotypical similarity, not the other way around. |
| 00:41.12 | eightyeight | understood |
| 00:41.47 | fugue88 | When you water your lawn, the lawn gets wet. |
| 00:42.04 | fugue88 | So, we're saying that the lawn looks wet, therefore somebody must have watered it. |
| 00:42.17 | eightyeight | she did show the brow reducing, the brain enlarging, other characteristic traits through the evolutionary process |
| 00:42.27 | fugue88 | Phenotype. |
| 00:42.29 | eightyeight | right |
| 00:42.43 | fugue88 | Evolution of species is a gentic relation. |
| 00:42.51 | eightyeight | right |
| 00:43.06 | fugue88 | The lawn can be wet for other reasons. |
| 00:43.21 | eightyeight | the moment sexual compatibility fails, you have specization |
| 00:43.39 | eightyeight | i'm aware of all of this |
| 00:43.40 | fugue88 | It's a logical fallacy to say that there skulls look similar, so they must have evolved from each other. |
| 00:44.05 | eightyeight | i think i said she was taking the standpoint of genetics |
| 00:44.13 | fugue88 | On the other hand, it would be proper to say that if they evolved from each other, they ought to look similar. |
| 00:44.20 | eightyeight | phonotype was just a result of the genes |
| 00:44.32 | eightyeight | *pheno |
| 00:44.34 | fugue88 | What's the genetics when you're looking at brow sizes? |
| 00:44.48 | sjansen | Okay, I'm back. |
| 00:45.04 | eightyeight | i'm assuming the dna was pulled from the dentician |
| 00:45.07 | sjansen | eightyeight: Sorry, missed your quote in the wall of text. |
| 00:45.49 | eightyeight | sjansen: It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was âthe first man of all menâ (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. |
| 00:46.52 | sjansen | I realize that this is purely conjecture and interpretation, but in context I'd argue the quote is more the effect of "God is our creator, human beings were not created ex nihilo" than "the exact mechanics exercised to create Adam's body were as follows". |
| 00:47.02 | fugue88 | If DNA had been pulled from the dentition, you'd think these people would be talking about genetypes, not phenotypes. |
| 00:47.08 | fugue88 | Just sayin'. |
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| 00:47.44 | fugue88 | undertakingyou: So, I guess you *were'nt* driven away by our conversation.... |
| 00:47.48 | fugue88 | :) |
| 00:48.11 | eightyeight | she showed the evolution from a genetic standpoint. then, the next day, brought in a cart of skulls, so we could see the results of the genetic drifts that were taking place over the millions of years |
| 00:48.44 | fugue88 | Okay, I'll bite. What's the genetic standpoint? |
| 00:49.06 | eightyeight | this isn't a genetics class. it's an anthro 1000 class. so, we haven't spent any time on what specific genes fit where, and how they've played in specific phenotypes |
| 00:49.19 | eightyeight | it's been: |
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| 00:50.00 | eightyeight | "the genes are 1.5% different from chimp. through the genetic line, we can trace our origins to chimp. now, check out what has happened after the split" |
| 00:50.26 | eightyeight | "see, aren't all these skulls and teeth interesting? ooooh" |
| 00:50.38 | fugue88 | Our genes are also 1.5% different from nearly every form of life, if you take into account that we have a different number of base pairs. |
| 00:50.43 | eightyeight | that's it. not much more, except for dates, names and places |
| 00:50.44 | sjansen | Does any of this really matter? The way I see it, it's all just dancing around the real question people care about: Does God exist? |
| 00:50.56 | eightyeight | sjansen: that's what i'm trying to drive home |
| 00:51.26 | eightyeight | (well, not personally, just how god fits in the picture if adam in an evolutionary step) |
| 00:52.01 | fugue88 | I'm trying to drive home this point: there's a struggle to cram Adam into the evolutionary chain. Does he fit in somewhere, or was he created as an original being? My point is that you're assuming there's actually an evolutionary chain in the first place, and that there's very little evidence for that. |
| 00:52.16 | fugue88 | I know that statement goes against 99% of what "they" say, but oh well. |
| 00:52.48 | eightyeight | i understand what you're saying. all i'm saying, is my professor gives a strong argument, and i don't have the pieces to refute |
| 00:52.59 | fugue88 | Sounded like a very weak arg to me. |
| 00:53.00 | bonez46 | i need some quick help with a hard drive issue.. trying to help an old lady..;) my mother.. her machine.. has two ide hard drives.. the one i am on now, in win xp .. is set to Master, the other drive set to Slave with the jumpers.. |
| 00:53.17 | fugue88 | he he... moving on to a diff topic... |
| 00:53.23 | eightyeight | they say the genes take us to chimp. seems strong enough to me |
| 00:54.02 | eightyeight | anyway, i should head home |
| 00:54.06 | bonez46 | when I look at the alternate unbooted drive.. it's showing.. but it only shows having two files, autoexec and confi on it.. if i disconnect the working drive.. though, and plug in the end of the ribbon to this alternate drive.. it boots up and old installation of win98se.. runs slow but fine.. |
| 00:54.21 | fugue88 | eightyeight: Have a good evening. Later, man. |
| 00:54.36 | bonez46 | my question is why won't it show up currently with the ribbon connector connecting both drives, and why doe it report weird things? |
| 00:54.41 | sjansen | Science is about forming theories useful for making predictions. For all I care, science could be teaching phrenology and I wouldn't immediately reject it. It could be used to advance the theory that we'll all just a loogie hawked by an inter=dimensional space squid and it wouldn't threaten my faith since science is about using a subset of avenues to inquiry to achieve consensus, a consensus that should always be possible to change. |
| 00:55.42 | fugue88 | bonez46: Very strange. When you boot the 2nd drive, does it then show additional files? |
| 00:56.08 | bonez46 | when I plug in just the 2nd hdd .. yes, it boots right up.. to win 98se.. |
| 00:56.18 | fugue88 | And you see more files listed? |
| 00:57.18 | bonez46 | my mother has a program on there that allows her to print wills and trusts.. and I'd like to mirror the drive and the programs and run them from a newer drive.. but in mean time I can't understand why I can't see both drives at boot time.. do I need to install grub on the newer drive... and then see if that will allow dual booting? |
| 00:57.30 | bonez46 | yeah, I see more files listed.. all the files for that 98se installation |
| 00:57.37 | fugue88 | Hmmm... |
| 00:58.01 | fugue88 | Are the contents of config.sys and autoexec.bat the same between the two scenarios? |
| 00:58.15 | fugue88 | The partition table might be messed up, or some partition marked hidden, or something. |
| 00:59.33 | fugue88 | Or maybe the two copies of the FAT disagree. |
| 00:59.39 | fugue88 | Miraculously. |
| 00:59.50 | fugue88 | Got a linux box to throw it in? |
| 01:00.44 | fugue88 | Hmm, dinnertime. |
| 01:01.25 | bonez46 | hmm no linux box here... |
| 01:14.41 | maquis | callie's pediatric checkup... doc gives her his pinky to check her sucking strength, then turns to me wth a surprised look. "you must be sore!" |
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| 02:47.52 | bonez2046 | maquis: is this your first? |
| 03:02.57 | bonez2046 | fugue88: that's the this.. with this old 98se drive. it runs fine in my linux box.. but I need to make this drive, either dual bootable... or something so my mother can choose at boot time whether to boot up 98se or xp pro |
| 03:09.14 | fugue88 | bonez2046: Oooh, no fun. |
| 03:09.57 | fugue88 | Do you have the XP install disc? |
| 03:10.23 | fugue88 | If so, you could maybe back up the drive using the linux box, put a fresh format on it, restore, than do the XP install. |
| 03:10.52 | fugue88 | Gotta worry about restoring the old boot loader properly... |
| 03:11.48 | bonez2046 | yeah, I have an xp install disc |
| 03:12.02 | bonez2046 | here's the thing.... |
| 03:24.19 | bonez2046 | this older drive with 98se.. it has a program on it.. which will still run from that disk.. if booted from it.. not sure if the program is somehow coded to the disc itself.. but if moved, it likely won't run any more..the software author has pulled up stakes and closed business.. so this is why I want to be able to make it bootable..this way |
| 03:24.42 | bonez2046 | does that make sense? |
| 03:31.28 | maquis | bonez2046: yes... first |
| 03:33.35 | bonez2046 | congrats..;) |
| 03:37.09 | maquis | thx |
| 04:31.10 | undertakingyou | fugue88: no, I didn't leave based on the conversation |
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| 16:34.24 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 16:34.25 | ibot | DoSes undertakingyou |
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| 16:52.06 | sjansen | ibot: Papa needs a good rlart. Whatcha got for me? |
| 16:52.09 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 16:52.09 | ibot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs Zelut |
| 16:52.29 | sjansen | I suppose that's a start. |
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| 16:57.54 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 16:59.58 | sjansen | I know it's my own fault for stepping outside proggit, but it annoys me the way people take a piece of fluff reporting and misrepresent it to contain something controversial. |
| 17:00.21 | jsmith | sjansen: No kidding... |
| 17:04.05 | sjansen | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/funny-pictures-cat-hates-mornings.jpg |
| 17:06.21 | sjansen | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/funny-pictures-taco-cat-is-a-palindrome.jpg |
| 17:11.15 | jalbretsen | things sjansen is always controversial |
| 17:11.20 | jalbretsen | thinks |
| 17:11.59 | tensai | ~lolcat sjansen |
| 17:18.27 | sjansen | Bah. Lolcats are like a sugar high, after 5 minutes I need another one. |
| 17:21.40 | jalbretsen | agrees |
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| 17:24.11 | Jayce^ | sjansen: here you go then: http://cheezburger.com/TemplateView.aspx?ciid=6027108 |
| 17:24.20 | Jayce^ | my brothers cat, he upped it yesterday |
| 17:25.54 | goozbach | I prefer hotdogs |
| 17:27.53 | unum | I like the "this is what I get for sleeping with the kitted down the street" |
| 17:29.26 | jalbretsen | Mah resent favorite: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/funny-pictures-cat-wears-wizard-hat.jpg |
| 17:30.59 | jalbretsen | http://speaklolcat.com/ |
| 17:32.30 | ^Migs^ | http://games.adultswim.com/meowcenaries-action-online-game.html |
| 17:32.32 | ^Migs^ | lolcat game |
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| 17:39.42 | sjansen | ~lolcat Jayce^ |
| 17:44.59 | harleypig | AGGHHHH!!! |
| 17:46.32 | sjansen | harleypig: There, there. It'll be over soon... Here, have a lolcat. |
| 17:49.04 | harleypig | heh |
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| 17:49.34 | harleypig | I didn't notice the topic of conversation ... I just tried to do a tension breaker. Doesn't work quite the same in irc. |
| 17:55.12 | ^Migs^ | http://techdirt.com/articles/20091203/1531507185.shtml |
| 18:01.47 | harleypig | http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/treasure-seekers-shoes/index.html |
| 18:04.23 | mulicheng | Good thing they locked that copyright infringing criminal up. |
| 18:04.29 | ^Migs^ | yeah |
| 18:04.36 | ^Migs^ | who parties during the movie anyway? rowdy kids, that's who. |
| 18:04.40 | ^Migs^ | good riddance |
| 18:10.53 | maquis | ~lart harleypig |
| 18:10.53 | ibot | cuts off harleypig's head with a halberd that could have been a little bit sharper |
| 18:11.13 | ^Migs^ | ~lart harleypig |
| 18:11.13 | ibot | lowers harleypig's priority |
| 18:11.30 | jsmith | ~stab ^Migs^ |
| 18:11.31 | ibot | ACTION runs at ^Migs^ with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
| 18:11.43 | ^Migs^ | ~whalestab jsmith |
| 18:11.44 | ibot | ACTION stabs jsmith with a rather narrow and pointy whale named Montgomery |
| 18:11.45 | harleypig | what'd I do? |
| 18:11.56 | harleypig | ~lart everybody |
| 18:11.56 | ibot | tries to shut everybody up |
| 18:12.01 | harleypig | :D |
| 18:12.02 | Jayce^ | you are you.. |
| 18:12.03 | jsmith | harleypig: I stook up for ya |
| 18:12.11 | harleypig | stook? |
| 18:12.41 | jsmith | Yeah... archaic past tense of "stood" |
| 18:12.45 | maquis | harleypig: you were a convenient target |
| 18:12.47 | harleypig | heh |
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| 18:12.59 | harleypig | maquis: ah |
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| 18:17.52 | maquis | spills grape nuts in her keyboard..... |
| 18:18.23 | jsmith | maquis: Seriously? |
| 18:18.52 | maquis | jsmith: yes, i did |
| 18:19.25 | jsmith | maquis: Hopefully dry grape nuts, and not grape nuts + milk |
| 18:19.35 | maquis | jsmith: correct |
| 18:20.26 | maquis | i usually eat my grape nuts with yogurt. i was trying to mix the grape nuts with the yogurt and some of the grape nuts tried to escape |
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| 18:22.10 | maquis | who was it that made the comment about a breast being the only intuitive user interface? |
| 18:28.14 | jsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:30.52 | maquis | jsmith: it is certainly *NOT* intuitive |
| 18:31.02 | maquis | heh: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5636391.html |
| 18:31.52 | maquis | actually a more reasonable patent than most software patents i've seen... but funny |
| 18:31.57 | goozbach | maquis: maybe your little one isn't that deductive :) |
| 18:32.05 | goozbach | I am just kidding of course! |
| 18:32.11 | maquis | goozbach: lol |
| 18:52.18 | tensai | maquis: I've seen a number of /. trolls claim that, but I would certainly agree with you |
| 18:52.40 | tensai | we had two who struggled with it and one who took to it her first try |
| 18:54.03 | maquis | just had a ten-minute struggl, but got her on for the moment (through the shield adapter thingy that makes it easier for them to connect) |
| 18:55.16 | TehLaser | That's more of an instinctual UI. |
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| 19:16.26 | Sargun | maquis, breasts do not have an intuitive ui. |
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| 19:25.42 | levi | maquis: My wife had lots of issues with getting our first kid to breastfeed. She ended up using a pump for the first year. That was no fun at all. Second kid went better, but wasn't without difficulty. |
| 19:26.23 | ^Migs^ | all my kids had problems breastfeeding |
| 19:26.35 | ^Migs^ | my wife pumped with this baby for a few months before just going to formula |
| 19:26.44 | ^Migs^ | the other babies, pumping lasted about 5 or 6 months |
| 19:27.00 | elg | wonders if it's genetic |
| 19:27.03 | ^Migs^ | low milk supply plus inverted nipples made it hard |
| 19:28.06 | ^Migs^ | well, I have three songs so far: http://christmas.justinreeve.com/ |
| 19:28.29 | elg | so I got me that zazzle tie |
| 19:28.34 | levi | The whole natural childbirth/breastfeeding movement needs to take a step or two back and just chill out. |
| 19:28.41 | elg | came out crooked. and the moron that designed it made the lettering too big |
| 19:29.06 | elg | but, zazzle is replacing my order without me needing to pull any teeth, so that's good |
| 19:29.08 | Tene | jsmith: "nipple nazis"? |
| 19:29.31 | elg | levi: anyone who's not chilled out needs to chill out |
| 19:29.48 | levi | Tene: He must be referring to the breastfeeding consultant ladies. |
| 19:29.55 | levi | elg: What did you put on the tie? |
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| 19:30.53 | elg | I think it makes sense to go as natural as the woman is comfortable doing, and breastfeed whenever it's possbile/convenient. there are immunological benefits to breast feeding. but there are plenty of reasons to not |
| 19:31.22 | elg | http://www.zazzle.com/remove_before_flight_tie-151097933594012781 |
| 19:31.36 | elg | that's the updated design with the lettering small enough not to get stuck in the knot |
| 19:31.53 | elg | and yes the moron was me. |
| 19:32.12 | tensai | as with free software and most everything else, zealots often hinder their own cause |
| 19:32.51 | elg | so what's the best windows IM client these days? |
| 19:34.25 | thaddeusq | elg, pidgin |
| 19:36.28 | ^Migs^ | pidgin |
| 19:36.35 | ^Migs^ | trillian's pretty good, too |
| 19:41.09 | goozbach | elg: putty to a screen session running irssi |
| 19:41.11 | goozbach | :) |
| 19:41.20 | elg | not for me silly |
| 19:42.30 | goozbach | trillian is pretty nice |
| 19:48.46 | sjansen | ~lart slideshare |
| 19:48.46 | ibot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs slideshare |
| 19:49.51 | goozbach | slideshare does suck |
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| 19:57.25 | elg | ~rlart |
| 19:57.26 | ibot | teaches neybar the basics, including how to RTM |
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| 20:24.55 | ^Migs^ | hmmm, woot.com has a good deal on 1GB Disney Mix Sticks right now |
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| 21:20.35 | ^Migs^ | http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2009/12/04/tis-the-season-to-be-a-practical-joker/ |
| 22:04.34 | unum | that is very convincinc |
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| 22:29.51 | tensai | there's a podcast of car talk? why didn't anybody tell me?!? |
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| 22:38.17 | levi | tensai: There's also a podcast of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, which is the best radio show ever. |
| 22:39.01 | jsmith | levi: Better than Car Talk? Are you mad? |
| 22:39.38 | levi | Wait Wait has me rolling on the floor every time. |
| 22:39.52 | levi | Car Talk is amusing sometimes. |
| 22:40.21 | levi | Did you see the Car Talk cartoon they made? |
| 22:40.59 | jsmith | is glad to be able to hear Car Talk and Wait Wait back to back on Saturday mornings |
| 22:41.32 | mrpull | another vote for Wait Wait over car talk |
| 22:41.51 | sjansen | ~Wait Wait++ |
| 22:42.51 | mrpull | Cartalk == Subaru Driving Yuppy + Vacuum Leak + Trip to Dealership + Smokers Laugh |
| 22:42.58 | mrpull | * 100000 |
| 22:44.03 | tensai | levi: the car talk cartoon was horrible. I tried to like it, I really did. |
| 22:44.23 | levi | It was pretty bad. I only saw the first one, though. |
| 22:44.32 | tensai | I think I suffered through 2 of them |
| 22:44.45 | levi | How many did they make? |
| 22:45.00 | tensai | my favorite wait wait panelists are roy blount, mo rocca and paula poundstone |
| 22:45.33 | tensai | I had my mythtv record them all I think it recorded 4 or 5 before I canceled it |
| 22:46.50 | elg | cartalk beats wait wait anyday |
| 22:46.55 | elg | but not the cartoon |
| 23:11.27 | levi | boggles at blog.sethroberts.net |
| 23:14.42 | sjansen | Foot Fungus Cured With Socks is an interesting idea. |
| 23:15.05 | levi | Sure, but his attitude is all screwy. |
| 23:15.41 | fozzmoo | Why? He writes like he's intelligent but he's skeptical of global warming? |
| 23:16.00 | fozzmoo | "This means that something powerful â not carbon dioxide â has been producing changes in global temperature so large they cause carbon dioxide to rise and fall in amounts as large as those we are now worried about. Until we know what this is there is no way to allow for it." |
| 23:16.00 | levi | No, nothing to do with the global warming bits in particular. |
| 23:16.07 | fozzmoo | oh. |
| 23:16.11 | levi | Of course you'd latch on to that. :P |
| 23:16.29 | elg | climategate: the only truly intuitive interface |
| 23:16.41 | fozzmoo | Anybody else read the Harry Read Me? |
| 23:17.23 | fozzmoo | I doubt many in the MSM (or the Non-MSM) could make heads of tails of it. I found it very enlightening. |
| 23:17.32 | levi | I was thinking along the lines of his ranking his sleep experience every night on a 1-100 scale, except he uses one decimal place as well an insists that there's a huge difference between 99.4 and 99.8 or something, and asks if anyone has any insight as to whether one of 4 random things he did was what made him sleep so much better. |
| 23:17.47 | fungus | eww, who doesn't have at least a weeks supply of socks? |
| 23:17.52 | fozzmoo | levi: Wow. His attitude *is* all screwy. |
| 23:18.11 | fozzmoo | fungus: That's an interesting statement coming from someone with your nick. :) |
| 23:18.20 | sjansen | heh |
| 23:18.28 | fungus | hehe. I *am* fungus, and have a 2 month supply |
| 23:18.45 | levi | And in the socks post, he has a rant about how mainstream science couldn't figure out how to cure his foot fungus, and he figured it all out by himself with his awesome SCIENCE POWERS! |
| 23:19.08 | levi | Our scientists must really suck! |
| 23:19.19 | levi | And textbooks are worthless for learning science! |
| 23:19.23 | fozzmoo | My foot fungi problems stopped when I got a note excusing me from P.E. |
| 23:19.59 | elg | not to mention hoity-toity professors at prestigious universities |
| 23:20.12 | sjansen | And grad students. |
| 23:20.29 | elg | ~lart sjansen |
| 23:20.29 | ibot | slaps a compatible dib on sjansen's head |
| 23:20.39 | sjansen | Danke. |
| 23:20.49 | fozzmoo | Well, hoity-toity grad students anyway. |
| 23:23.22 | elg | there's a fine line there, between science and pseudoscience |
| 23:23.48 | elg | some pseudoscience is easy to recognize |
| 23:23.51 | levi | I'm not sure this Seth Roberts guy is entirely clear where that line is. |
| 23:23.53 | elg | some is not |
| 23:23.57 | elg | and likewise with science |
| 23:24.07 | sjansen | What I think == science. Anythin I disagree with == psuedo-science. |
| 23:24.20 | elg | easy for you, but not all of us have your mind |
| 23:24.32 | elg | ;-) |
| 23:24.55 | unum | speaking of pseudo-science |
| 23:24.58 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construct_theory_of_ADHD |
| 23:25.18 | elg | in his shangri-la diet book, it sounds all very good. i liked his approach to the problem. he didn't sound so utterly wacky as he does on his blog, and his theory while a little bit out there isn't entirely unfathomable |
| 23:26.36 | elg | my own experiments were inconclusive. IANA whatever kind of scientist studies things like diet and weight loss, but I could whip up a good half dozen hypotheses that I thought were simpler (occam's razor) than his to explain my results, which weren't all that impressive anyway. |
| 23:27.08 | elg | the most important of which, the mere consciousness of what you're eating. just paying attention to what you eat and when you eat it will do wonders |
| 23:27.38 | levi | He reminds me very much of my father-in-law with all his goings-on about Kefir and the medical establishment and whatnot. |
| 23:28.19 | unum | I think psycology is a psuedo-science |
| 23:28.29 | elg | i think that's a rather broad brush |
| 23:28.51 | unum | ya it is |
| 23:29.14 | levi | I think unum is a pseudo-person. |
| 23:29.19 | unum | especially since I meant psychiatry |
| 23:30.11 | levi | You should go hang out with some scientologists. They hate all that stuff too. ;) |
| 23:30.25 | elg | unum: that's even wronger |
| 23:30.49 | unum | is still bitter about being drugged as a child |
| 23:31.20 | unum | I think therapy is a good thing for a lot of people |
| 23:32.04 | unum | but when it comes to drugging people to effect people's mental state scientist don't really know what they are doing |
| 23:32.15 | elg | hogwash |
| 23:32.42 | elg | your psychiatrist may not have, i wouldn't know |
| 23:33.00 | unum | I never saw a psychiatrist, a physician drugged me |
| 23:33.15 | elg | so that makes psychiatry pseudoscience? |
| 23:33.16 | unum | same is true for many people on anti depressants |
| 23:34.05 | unum | the use of drugs for altering people mental states is a psuedo-science |
| 23:34.08 | elg | that's like saying physics isn't a science because some programmer miscalculated the trajectory of a missile |
| 23:34.09 | fozzmoo | unum: My psychiatrist basically blames that on a vast shortage of psychiatrists. |
| 23:34.36 | unum | fozzmoo: or a bad health program where people don't get mental health coverage |
| 23:34.38 | levi | I took some anti-depressants for a while. I honestly didn't notice anything that I could definitively pin on the drugs. Eventually I just quit taking them, and again I didn't notice anything. |
| 23:34.39 | elg | unum: it is definitely a challenging science |
| 23:34.46 | elg | and one with many unanswered questions |
| 23:34.58 | fozzmoo | I wouldn't call it psuedo-science as much as a science that we've only begun to understand very well. |
| 23:35.03 | elg | but it is most definitely not pseudoscience, and frankly that's an insulting attitude |
| 23:35.15 | unum | elg: what bugs me is that so many of the people involved choose to turn their back on the unaswered questions |
| 23:35.43 | elg | unanswered questions are a staple of science |
| 23:35.43 | unum | feyman's famous talk about cargo cults was based off of the psychatairy field |
| 23:35.57 | unum | elg: looking at unaswered questions is a staple of science |
| 23:36.05 | unum | not ignoring them because they're inconvient |
| 23:36.06 | elg | yes |
| 23:36.30 | elg | who's ignoring unanswered questions? |
| 23:36.48 | fozzmoo | I'm ignoring that. |
| 23:37.00 | levi | Heh, there's an entry later in the blog where he quotes a guy who started eating nothing but meat. He immediately started sleeping much better. Of course, he was also standing on one foot for a while, but it was clearly the meat diet that made the difference. |
| 23:37.02 | elg | fozzmoo: pseudoscientist! ;-) |
| 23:37.04 | unum | http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect?currentPage=all |
| 23:37.22 | unum | that article talks about how the drug companies are ignoring why placebos are getting better |
| 23:37.35 | unum | in fact placebos now work as well as prozac |
| 23:37.42 | elg | for what? |
| 23:37.48 | unum | but psycatrist are ignoring it |
| 23:37.56 | unum | for treating depression |
| 23:38.03 | elg | what kind of depression? |
| 23:38.22 | unum | bipolar |
| 23:38.55 | unum | as diagnosed by a trained doctor, I'm not sure what type |
| 23:38.55 | elg | unum: do you know anybody close to you with bipolar? |
| 23:39.06 | unum | elg: I know several that have been diagnosed |
| 23:39.11 | fozzmoo | Hmm. I can't imagine someone with truly debilitating bipolar disorder being treated effectively with placebos. |
| 23:39.14 | unum | some take medication others do not |
| 23:39.22 | elg | fozzmoo: exactly |
| 23:39.30 | unum | well you're both wrong |
| 23:39.30 | elg | absolutely no way |
| 23:39.32 | unum | read the article |
| 23:39.36 | unum | it happens |
| 23:39.46 | elg | unum: I don't need to read your @#!!$# article, I know first-hand that meds do work |
| 23:39.49 | elg | and the wrong meds dont' work. |
| 23:39.52 | fozzmoo | I recently discovered there are two kinds of bipolar disorder in the psychiatry field... |
| 23:39.56 | unum | elg: placebos do work |
| 23:40.10 | fozzmoo | I think they call the other Bipolar 2 or something |
| 23:40.11 | unum | relying on your antedotal experience is psuedoscient |
| 23:40.30 | elg | then tell me why my wife was stuck in the hospital for 2 weeks with severely debilitating psychosis while the right cocktail was found |
| 23:40.40 | fozzmoo | Anyway- one is low functioning and the other is high functioning. |
| 23:40.50 | elg | why didn't the other meds work if it's just placebo? |
| 23:41.24 | unum | elg: no one knows |
| 23:41.30 | unum | that's the unanswered question |
| 23:41.36 | unum | that they refuse to look at |
| 23:41.38 | fozzmoo | But since so much is still unknown, I think some psychiatrists have to go figuratively poking around- trying different meds - to see if one works. |
| 23:41.40 | elg | "they" |
| 23:41.41 | unum | why did it take two weeks? |
| 23:41.50 | unum | because the doctors don't really understand what is wrong |
| 23:41.59 | unum | the field of psychiatry |
| 23:42.00 | elg | i don't dispute that. but research is ongoing |
| 23:42.08 | mp_ | i think this conversation is making me double-blind |
| 23:42.10 | elg | much has been learned in the past 8 years |
| 23:42.23 | unum | nothing has been learned |
| 23:42.23 | elg | and even more in the 20 years before that |
| 23:42.29 | elg | you're an ignorant assl. |
| 23:42.32 | unum | we still don't know anything |
| 23:42.33 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 23:42.48 | fozzmoo | I thoroughly enjoyed "Change Your Brain, Change Your Life" Good book. |
| 23:42.53 | unum | we know when we give certain drugs to some people it makes a difference |
| 23:42.56 | fozzmoo | Really sheds some light on what we *do* know now. |
| 23:42.58 | elg | putting you on ignore. i can't deal with it |
| 23:43.13 | unum | when we give those same drugs to other people it does nothing |
| 23:44.04 | elg | bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, etc. are real physical illnesses and treatable with medication. that's not psuedoscience or psuedomedicine, it's the real thing. Yes, there are many unanswered questions and research is ongoing (go read the scientific journals). |
| 23:44.43 | elg | Yes, some psychiatrists are quacks and some physicians are even worse, working on limited knowledge. |
| 23:44.55 | unum | the main problem is an over diagnosis |
| 23:45.02 | elg | Yes, I think there is probably much overdiagnosis of ADHD and related disorders. |
| 23:45.04 | fozzmoo | unum: I can go along with that. |
| 23:45.21 | unum | people who don't really have chemical imbalances(or what ever they call it now) are being drugged |
| 23:45.41 | fozzmoo | A lot of child psychiatrists should probably try recommending eating less sugar. |
| 23:45.50 | unum | I know someone who was refused treatment by a therapist because she refuse prozack |
| 23:46.08 | unum | turns out she had pmdd not bipolar |
| 23:47.41 | levi | unum: The way you're talking about this suggests that you think they know more than you're saying you think they know. |
| 23:48.06 | levi | I mean, if they didn't know anything, they couldn't have correctly diagnosed her with pmdd later. |
| 23:48.52 | levi | Medicine is difficult, and brain-related medicine even more so. |
| 23:48.58 | unum | my point was that they're all over the map |
| 23:49.25 | unum | she's still not on medication and learning to deal with those symptons seperately |
| 23:49.53 | levi | Practicing of all kinds of medicine is all over the map. Because it's hard, and the people doing it aren't perfect. |
| 23:49.55 | unum | I'm sure there are many in the psychiatric field who see the over diagnosis and are trying to rein it in |
| 23:50.15 | unum | and you are right it is really hard |
| 23:50.19 | unum | it's very complicated |
| 23:50.23 | unum | and that's what bugs me |
| 23:51.03 | unum | drawing the line is hard in most fields |
| 23:51.42 | levi | Be grateful people are getting drugged instead of thrown into asylums or being lobotomized or whatever. |
| 23:51.58 | levi | And hope that we eventually get better at understanding and treating this stuff. |
| 23:51.59 | unum | in sometypes of medicine it's easy(like when I had a dislocated elbow, they got that with out any problem) others it's hard(my doctor *thinks* I have lupus) |
| 23:52.06 | elg | the brain is in almost all ways a big black box. try debugging a (very) complex system that's a black box |
| 23:52.32 | unum | levi: my problem is it seems everyone is on drugs |
| 23:52.37 | elg | the scientific thing to do is to put in inputs and observe outputs |
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| 23:53.15 | unum | while there are certainly people who couldn't function with out drugs, should we start giving drugs to everyone because we think it will make them feel better |
| 23:54.03 | unum | elg: if you would read the article you would see that the industry is ignoring the out put they don't like |
| 23:54.09 | unum | they view it as a hurdle to over come |
| 23:54.17 | unum | I shouldn't say they are completely ignoring it |
| 23:54.27 | unum | but they refuse to exmine it |
| 23:55.06 | unum | the problem may just be that the diagonese criteria they are using is wrong |
| 23:55.48 | unum | and while people who are truly bipolar only respond to the proper drug, they are incapable of diagnosing who is really bipolar any other way |
| 23:56.01 | unum | I didn't word that right |
| 23:56.21 | unum | what I meant to say is, people who are truly bipolar won't respond to the placebo |
| 23:56.51 | unum | but the psychiatrist refuse to realize that that means most of the people they are diagnosing as bipolar really aren't |
| 23:57.29 | unum | discarding evidence that you don't like is psuedoscience |
| 23:57.54 | mp_ | "If she floats, she's a witch!" |
