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| 00:41.49 | elg | anyone familiar with the difference between LIBADD and LDADD? |
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| 00:55.10 | fozzmoo | Ooooh. The Matrix is gonna be on AMC in 5 minutes. |
| 00:55.16 | fozzmoo | Love that editor-for-TV goodness! |
| 00:56.19 | fozzmoo | s/editor/edited/ |
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| 17:37.02 | sjansen | http://www.theonion.com/content/video/advocacy_group_decries_petas |
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| 17:49.59 | harleypig | http://www.reallifecomics.com/ |
| 17:53.30 | fozzmoo | Hmmm... http://www.azfamily.com/home/Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-could-be-next-Arizona-governor-72102302.html |
| 17:56.59 | elg | harleypig: whoa, that star wars curve is way off |
| 17:57.42 | Migs | yeah it is |
| 17:57.48 | Migs | although frankly, I liked all of them |
| 17:58.15 | elg | i liked 2 alright and 3 quite a lot |
| 17:58.33 | elg | 1 still better than most dumb movies (e.g. transformers) but it was definitely the worst. |
| 17:59.14 | elg | and general star wars uptight weenie consensus is that jedi was the worst of the first trilogy |
| 18:04.28 | harleypig | http://hawtness.com/2009/11/25/wtf-girl-photo-she-carved-that-bra-herself/ |
| 18:04.45 | harleypig | feh ... I liked them all, even the last/first three |
| 18:06.35 | harleypig | err ... I liked them all *except for the twilight series* |
| 18:06.37 | levi | Wow, I feel sorry for the dude who discovered his biological father is Charles Manson. |
| 18:09.49 | fozzmoo | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O6weIDifFE&feature=player_embedded |
| 18:12.35 | harleypig | think |
| 18:12.37 | harleypig | feh |
| 18:12.42 | harleypig | http://xrl.in/3v47 |
| 18:17.03 | harleypig | http://xrl.in/3v4b |
| 18:17.14 | harleypig | where's brac? |
| 18:17.19 | harleypig | ~seen brac |
| 18:17.21 | ibot | brac is currently on #utah (8h 11m 17s), last said: '["5 Star Wars Status Updates" by Brian Murphy on CollegeHumor]'. |
| 18:18.04 | harleypig | The 3v47 link is an article on the guy who discovered his father was Chuckles Manson |
| 18:18.36 | harleypig | The 3v4b link is an article on how time and space may not be as tightly bound as thought for the last century |
| 18:21.42 | harleypig | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:22.49 | harleypig | oh wow ... it may also change the accepted big bang theory to a "bounce" theory (a contracting and expanding universe) |
| 18:23.31 | harleypig | It also claims to explain some of the 'dark energy' phenomena |
| 18:35.12 | elg | interesting |
| 18:35.27 | elg | not to mention open up the possibility for ftl travel (or so I've seen headlines claiming) |
| 18:37.03 | elg | can't we call it Petr Gravity though? I can't figure out how to pronounce HoÅava |
| 18:37.11 | elg | and it's hard to type |
| 18:46.55 | elg | kindle2 pdf support |
| 18:53.55 | *** part/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce^@66.147.243.115) |
| 18:58.09 | fozzmoo | Amazon's PDF reader lacks a zoom function which makes many PDFs entirely unreadable on the device. |
| 18:58.13 | fozzmoo | (says Engadget) |
| 19:03.43 | harleypig | elg: It'll be shortened to p-gravity |
| 19:04.13 | elg | pravity |
| 19:04.26 | harleypig | h-gravity will be too annoying to say ... though 'aitch gee' might be better received than 'pee gee' |
| 19:04.48 | elg | or hravity, which is just as unpronouncabel as horava |
| 19:04.57 | harleypig | pravity |
| 19:05.08 | harleypig | sounds almost like depravity |
| 19:06.10 | elg | depravity is what we call antigravity technology |
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| 19:08.18 | elg | grady booch talk here next week |
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| 19:19.45 | levi | elg: You going to it? |
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| 19:20.02 | elg | yea |
| 19:20.34 | fozzmoo | Wow. Just read that Fred Lampropoulos has thrown his hat in the ring for Bennett's seat. |
| 19:20.41 | levi | I would probably go if it was convenient, but I can't say he's someone I'd go far out of my way to hear. |
| 19:30.52 | elg | well it is upstairs... |
| 19:35.00 | levi | That would be convenient enough for me to gother. :) |
| 19:35.07 | levi | Er, bother. |
| 19:40.12 | elg | ok, what am I doing wrong? |
| 19:40.24 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:40.31 | elg | search fugal.net wan |
| 19:41.27 | elg | # host falcon |
| 19:41.27 | elg | falcon.fugal.net has address 24.130.129.239 |
| 19:41.27 | elg | # host savage |
| 19:41.27 | elg | (nothing) |
| 19:42.26 | mp_ | dns isn't answering for savage.fugal.net |
| 19:43.01 | elg | # host savage.wan localhost |
| 19:43.02 | elg | Using domain server: |
| 19:43.02 | elg | Name: localhost |
| 19:43.02 | elg | Address: 127.0.0.1#53 |
| 19:43.02 | elg | Aliases: |
| 19:43.03 | elg | savage.wan has address 172.17.64.140 |
| 19:43.13 | elg | yes, savage.fugal.net doesn't exist. but savage.wan does. |
| 19:44.18 | mp_ | what does your machine believe to be authoritative for savage.wan? /etc/hosts or a local nameserver? |
| 19:44.28 | mp_ | (or some other nameserver) |
| 19:45.27 | elg | maybe that's it, |
| 19:45.28 | elg | # hostname -f |
| 19:45.28 | elg | taran.fugal.net |
| 19:45.42 | elg | it's assuming savage.fugal.net not existing is end of story because it's my domain? |
| 19:47.03 | ^Migs^ | is there a decent last.fm scrobbler for Blackberry? |
| 19:47.09 | ^Migs^ | a free one, that is |
| 19:47.22 | elg | decent and blackberry don't really go together, ime |
| 19:47.26 | ^Migs^ | All i've been able to find is Scrobbleberry, but that requires you to use their very rudimentary music player |
| 19:47.46 | elg | except that google maps has managed to be awesome in spite of blackberry |
| 19:48.27 | elg | still looking for a document reader for ebooks, scriptures, etc. |
| 19:48.54 | ^Migs^ | I need to get one for my scriptures, too. I had one on my iPaq that was nice, but what about a good BlackBerry one? |
| 19:49.03 | elg | so far they either suck, no scriptures available, eat up all the RAM, or all three |
| 19:49.12 | mp_ | elg, refer to /etc/host.conf for the resolution order using by the C resolver. by default it's going to check hosts and then query bind |
| 19:49.37 | elg | multi on |
| 19:50.38 | mp_ | what do you want to happen? do you want it to query a nameserver first or check hosts or what? |
| 19:50.51 | elg | i don't really care what it does with hosts |
| 19:51.08 | mp_ | so what's returning the address for hosts in .wan? |
| 19:51.19 | elg | nameserver on localhost |
| 19:51.25 | mp_ | ah |
| 19:52.21 | mp_ | and resolv.conf is pointed to localhost as the nameserver? |
| 19:52.57 | elg | yes |
| 19:54.35 | elg | and if i turn it around, search wan fugal.net then it happily skips wan, e.g. |
| 19:54.38 | elg | host www |
| 19:54.45 | elg | www.fugal.net has address ... |
| 19:55.13 | mp_ | i wonder if setting the ndots option to 0 in resolv.conf would fix it |
| 19:55.24 | elg | but i want it to resolve fugal.net first |
| 19:55.40 | mp_ | has never tried that option before |
| 19:56.44 | elg | hmm, that did fix it |
| 19:56.50 | elg | but do i really want ndots 0? |
| 19:57.06 | mp_ | that's a good question. sadly, i must food. |
| 19:57.50 | elg | from the man page i really don't see why that would help at all |
| 20:02.49 | maquis | grumbles |
| 20:04.12 | maquis | ok... let's say i want something to run whenever xterm is started... but not whenever zsh starts... |
| 20:04.27 | maquis | (so, for example, not when i create a new screen or anything) |
| 20:04.55 | maquis | is the easiest way to do that to have a conditional inside my zshrc checking the value of $TERM or something crazy like that? |
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| 20:07.42 | elg | brac: you're fat. |
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| 20:08.14 | elg | -lart not enough ram |
| 20:08.14 | brac | salut elg :) |
| 20:08.14 | brac | replaces not enough ram's TUMS with alka-seltzer tablets |
| 20:08.43 | elg | goodbye for now botty |
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| 20:14.15 | maquis | hides from elg |
| 20:20.49 | sjansen | The dig and host commands ignore /etc/hosts. If you want to test /etc/hosts, use ping or getent. |
| 20:22.28 | JoshH | isn't host.conf old? i always use nsswitch.conf |
| 20:23.32 | sjansen | yeah, elg's probably still trying to use a machine he purchased in 1996 |
| 20:41.27 | unum | http://textsfromlastnight.com/view/55528 |
| 20:41.42 | unum | I think a lack of beer goggles is seriously harming my sex life |
| 20:43.47 | elg | i checked nsswitch too, it's fine |
| 20:44.07 | elg | and i'm not using /etc/hosts at all and this is actually a linode |
| 20:44.13 | elg | neener ;-) |
| 20:51.04 | maquis | doesn't have issues with running out of memory... |
| 20:51.06 | maquis | so neener |
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| 20:51.56 | sjansen | ibot: He can have it! |
| 20:52.06 | fozzmoo | yum yum yum yum. |
| 20:52.11 | fozzmoo | yum -y update |
| 20:54.52 | elg | ~lart maquis |
| 20:54.52 | ibot | burns maquis to a crisp with a laser |
| 20:55.04 | elg | I think i saw that episode ibot |
| 20:56.45 | Tene | http://enlightenment.org/p.php?p=news/show&l=en&news_id=17 -- pretty cool |
| 20:57.28 | Tene | (samsung) |
| 21:08.34 | sjansen | So I hear that N years later (for N > 5), Debian finally has multiarch working. Anybody want to tell me real world reasons its better than what RH and SUSE have been doing for ages? |
| 21:09.00 | elg | are you talking about 64 bit stuff? |
| 21:09.30 | elg | is woefully uneducated about the practical issues of 64-bit |
| 21:10.03 | fozzmoo | Well, the big one is support for larger amounts of RAM than 32-bit addressing allows. |
| 21:10.11 | fozzmoo | Without using PAE. |
| 21:10.22 | unum | I'm not sure at all by what you mean by multiarch? |
| 21:11.23 | unum | debian releases for more architechure than RH and SUSE and has done so for a long time |
| 21:12.07 | goozbach | unum: 32 and 64bit stuff on the same kernel at the same time |
| 21:12.16 | goozbach | pretty much needed to support legacy stuff |
| 21:12.58 | unum | thanks |
| 21:13.11 | unum | debian probably just took longer because it wasn't a priority |
| 21:13.33 | unum | since many of the developers are committed to only open source software |
| 21:13.37 | sjansen | On RH and SUSE systems it has been trivial to install both 32 and 64 bit libraries, with user transparent mix of 32 and 64 apps. This is referred to as "multilib". For ages Debian required pure 64 or 32 bit environments, with special packages for 32 bit OOo and Firefox. All other 32 bit apps required a separate chroot. Now Debian has finally finished their "multiarch" solution, but I have a hard time imagining what could make it better or wo |
| 21:13.37 | sjansen | rth the wait. |
| 21:14.09 | fozzmoo | yeesh. No kidding, sjansen. |
| 21:14.54 | unum | why would you need that, if you're running only open source software |
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| 21:14.58 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 21:15.09 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: wb |
| 21:15.09 | sjansen | unum: Because some open source software is not 64 bit safe. |
| 21:15.29 | Jayce^ | yeah yeah, trying to finish some stuff and get out of here :) |
| 21:15.38 | sjansen | unum: Because you want to develop and test 64 and 32 bit code without juggling a chroot. |
| 21:15.47 | Jayce^ | not exactly wanting to be at work today (or @#(*$@# Friday for that matter) |
| 21:15.48 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Did you see the article I posted earlier about "Sheriff Joe" running for gov in AZ? |
| 21:15.54 | Jayce^ | oh yeah |
| 21:16.10 | Jayce^ | love the number he has, even without trying |
| 21:16.17 | fozzmoo | Heh heh. Yeah, it's awesome. |
| 21:16.41 | fozzmoo | I gotta wonder if he has any sons and if they're as stoic as he is. |
| 21:16.56 | sjansen | unum: Basically, for N years Debian sucked hard core, but because most people installed 32 bit only a small population noticed. |
| 21:17.23 | fozzmoo | snickers |
| 21:17.48 | fozzmoo | sjansen: What about Ubuntu? Have they been doing multilib or have they followed Debian's lead? |
| 21:17.59 | sjansen | Ubuntu followed Debian's lead. |
| 21:18.13 | unum | there have been a lot of 64 bit ubuntu installs |
| 21:18.16 | fozzmoo | Wow. I had no idea. |
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| 21:18.33 | fozzmoo | unum: Right, but you can't run (or develop) 32-bit software in that, if I understand correctly. |
| 21:19.02 | fozzmoo | That can be mighty inconvenient. |
| 21:19.25 | unum | fozzmoo: sure for developers |
| 21:19.30 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Well, you could run a handful of special built 32 bit apps like OOo. |
| 21:19.44 | unum | but for a server admin I don't understand the issue |
| 21:19.47 | fozzmoo | Or for someone who downloads some application binary "for Linux." |
| 21:19.56 | unum | unless you have proprietary package you are running |
| 21:20.12 | sjansen | The kernel could handle 32 and 64, mostly it was the loader and package manager that were at fault. |
| 21:20.12 | unum | fozzmoo: ya, but if you use ubuntu and debian most everything you want is in the repos |
| 21:20.15 | unum | it's not like redhat |
| 21:20.41 | unum | where you are always downloading packages off the web because nothing's in the repos |
| 21:21.05 | fozzmoo | I rarely install software that isn't in a repo, but I know a lot of novice Linux users would. |
| 21:21.20 | fozzmoo | Like, download a Linux app from download.com. :) |
| 21:21.42 | sjansen | unum: *shrug* I don't care that you can't feel a real pain that I felt and reject Debian because of. My question was if multiarch is actually as awesome as some Debian users claim, or just a sad example of Debian users sticking their head in the sand while Debian took forever to catch up with the rest of the world again. |
| 21:21.43 | fozzmoo | What about statically compiled 32-bit apps. Would Ubuntu/Debian do okay with those? |
| 21:22.09 | Jayce^ | has never had luck on any system with 32/64 hybrids |
| 21:22.20 | fozzmoo | s/Ubuntu/64-bit Ubuntu/ |
| 21:22.31 | Jayce^ | fought RH for quite a while on that with the cybersource modules |
| 21:22.37 | sjansen | s/feel/imagine/ ; s/reject/rejected/ |
| 21:22.58 | Jayce^ | 3-rd party prorpietary POS... |
| 21:24.27 | goozbach | just signed a bunch of GPG keys from our recent keysigning party |
| 21:24.37 | goozbach | it's been years since I've signed anyone's key |
| 21:24.40 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Did you see Fred Lampropoulos will be running for Bennett's seat? |
| 21:24.58 | harleypig | http://www.bobandtom.com/photo/album/featured/10350 |
| 21:24.58 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: yeah, will be interesting to see if it changes what Lee does, don't think it will though |
| 21:25.18 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: It's good to see some good, principled people in the running so far. |
| 21:25.29 | Jayce^ | and with the chance to drop bennet |
| 21:25.32 | Jayce^ | t |
| 21:25.33 | fozzmoo | I wonder if Eager will keep it up with the competition building up. |
| 21:25.57 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Oh, I think it'll be a repeat of Chris Canon. He won't make it out of the convention. |
| 21:25.59 | Jayce^ | I think she'll make a lot more lame quotes, get desperate, and fold |
| 21:26.16 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: well, the delegates I know of so far are working towards that |
| 21:26.28 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Good deal. :) |
| 21:26.46 | fozzmoo | Well, have a happy Thanksgiving people! |
| 21:27.17 | fozzmoo | Be sure you give thanks to your respective deity for #utah. :) |
| 21:30.38 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@98.202.253.229) |
| 21:32.16 | harleypig | http://www.bobandtom.com/photo/album/big-things-gallery |
| 21:32.36 | sjansen | ~scare jalbretsen |
| 21:32.36 | ibot | ACTION puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at jalbretsen |
| 21:33.15 | JoshH | i know lots of people on debian were using 64 bit kernels with 32 bit userlands that worked just fine, or 64 bit firefoxes with the 32 bit plugin wrappers, but it's never been an issue for me since i went fully 64 bit and didn't look back at all |
| 21:34.25 | TehLaser | I've never had any problems with 64bit except a) Java, and b) Flash. |
| 21:34.49 | JoshH | the official 64 bit flash beta from adobe is basically flawless, ime |
| 21:35.44 | jalbretsen | sjansen: I'm immune to being scared due to when my birthday is. |
| 21:36.53 | Tene | JoshH: you mean besides the typical flash behavior of using ALL AVAILABLE CPU? |
| 21:37.06 | JoshH | i haven't even had that |
| 21:37.20 | JoshH | not since going with the 64 bit version anyway |
| 21:37.26 | Tene | huh |
| 21:37.29 | Tene | maybe I'll try it. |
| 21:38.34 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 21:39.08 | sjansen | JoshH: Do you mean mixed 32 and 64 libraries and binaries without chroot? Or just a 64 bit kernel? |
| 21:39.20 | sjansen | The devil is in the mix, not the kernel. |
| 21:39.31 | JoshH | just kernel, since messing with libs can be a pita |
| 21:40.45 | sjansen | JoshH: Are you aware of any real world scenario that makes multiarch better than multilib? |
| 21:40.45 | JoshH | the idea of having a chrooted browser always seemed absurd to me |
| 21:41.21 | elg | JoshH: obviously you're not paranoid enough. |
| 21:41.33 | elg | JoshH: come back when the idea of a chrooted ls doesn't seem wacky |
| 21:41.44 | JoshH | i think the only good real world scenario is a fully 64 bit system with 64 bit flash and lots of gigs of memory |
| 21:41.56 | JoshH | but i'm a simple man |
| 21:42.41 | harleypig | http://www.bobandtom.com/photogallery/view/last-90-days/oddities/9962 |
| 21:42.50 | harleypig | Ted Williams halloween costume |
| 21:43.41 | JoshH | elg, i never even bothered chrooting bind or postfix (unless it was default) |
| 21:43.52 | jalbretsen | so I trust everyone has gotten there Star Trek DVDs / Blue Ray Discs by now. |
| 21:43.56 | JoshH | actually i did chroot bind once, but later decided it was a waste of time |
| 21:43.58 | elg | no wonder you got rooted every thursday afternoon |
| 21:44.10 | elg | (kidding. I never saw the urgency for chrooting everything under the sun) |
| 21:44.13 | JoshH | if you want to be paranoid, might as well go all the way |
| 21:44.14 | TehLaser | Yeeeeees. Having gobs and gobs of RAM is nice. |
| 21:44.22 | TehLaser | I think I overspent on RAM on my last build though. |
| 21:44.25 | elg | jalbretsen: how's the blu-ray? |
| 21:44.25 | levi | jalbretsen: The new Star Trek movie, you mean? |
| 21:44.35 | JoshH | and be like that one browser hacker who only logs into his bank from a vm that gets reset every time it boots |
| 21:44.42 | sjansen | None of you understand what I'm asking do you? |
| 21:44.42 | elg | needs an hdtv and blu-ray player first, but I'm guessing that would be one of my first blu-ray discs |
| 21:45.01 | jalbretsen | levi: Yep, new one |
| 21:45.05 | elg | sjansen: I do, and I thought I was 64-bit dummy. i don't have any idea what the answer is though |
| 21:45.10 | levi | Yeah, we've got the DVD. |
| 21:45.23 | jalbretsen | elg: Don't own a blu-ray, had to get DVD |
| 21:45.26 | levi | I still don't have blu-ray. |
| 21:45.55 | elg | was thinking of an hdtv for christmas, but unexpected expenses happened |
| 21:46.13 | elg | so i'm aiming a bit lower - maybe a receiver |
| 21:46.33 | sjansen | This is why distro wars piss me off so much. Few people understand their preferred distro, let alone other distros, well enough to make a comparison. And I'm too stupid to stay above the fray. |
| 21:46.42 | JoshH | sjansen: you're just tryign to get us to admit that debian is inferior, and you will never succeed |
| 21:46.46 | harleypig | http://www.bobandtom.com/photogallery/view/last-90-days/oddities/10234 |
| 21:46.54 | harleypig | Danica's pit crew |
| 21:46.56 | elg | I understand my distro pretty well, with the notable exception of 64-bit |
| 21:47.19 | elg | but I don't understand RH anymore, it's been too long and my rotting memory and the changing landscape have rendered my opinion on RH irrelevant |
| 21:47.27 | sjansen | JoshH: I started out honestly curious, but I'm so tired of the "nope, no problem here, my distro is perfect" response that I get pissed off quickly these days. |
| 21:47.43 | jalbretsen | sjansen: I like Mandriva because it's purple / pink |
| 21:48.24 | TehLaser | Is the difference that multilib still runs all code as 64-bit, but compiles some libraries with 32-bit ints for source-but-not-binary compatibility? |
| 21:48.33 | TehLaser | Or am I hopelessly lost? |
| 21:48.35 | JoshH | i don't participate in distro wars at all, other than to join in on gentoo bashing wherever i see it, or mention how debian is perfect to annoy redhat guys |
| 21:48.55 | levi | Debian has tons of problems, but I'm more skilled at working around those problems than I am with other distros. So Debian rules over all! ;) |
| 21:49.19 | sjansen | Debian users especially piss me off because they have so many dated and incorrect stereotypes about my preferred distro, while barely even knowing their own distro well enough to understand when someone points out something another distro does better. |
| 21:49.22 | TehLaser | JoshH: I don't participate in breathing at all, except for taking oxygen from the air and expelling carbon dioxide. :) |
| 21:49.51 | JoshH | sjansen: i'd use redhat if it didn't still have rpm dependency hell! |
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| 21:50.41 | elg | omg he killed sjansen |
| 21:50.47 | jalbretsen | levi: I'm about the same but for RH et al. I understand how to get around problems better. Although I run Ubuntu as well. |
| 21:51.11 | Tene | looks over, sees sjansen lying dead on the floor. |
| 21:51.39 | elg | was thoroughly nonplussed by the new norah jones album |
| 21:51.53 | TehLaser | is one of those ever-mocked Gentoo users for the same reason. Don't give a crap about CFLAGS, just know how to make portage sing better than apt or yum. |
| 21:52.13 | TehLaser | elg: I think that was the point, actually. |
| 21:52.35 | elg | norah wants me to be nonplussed? |
| 21:52.37 | harleypig | http://www.cafepress.com/harleypig.115104582 |
| 21:53.05 | JoshH | harleypig: that would be an excellent anniversary or valentines gift |
| 21:53.09 | TehLaser | elg: no, she wants you to be confused and perplexed, which tends to lead to nonplussery, at least for a while. |
| 21:53.12 | harleypig | heh |
| 21:53.28 | elg | no, i wasn't confused or perplexed |
| 21:53.31 | elg | just nonplussed |
| 21:54.57 | {-} | http://www.cybercrime.gov/felahyPlea.pdf <-- Selling counterfeit chips to the military should be considered a form of treason and be punishable by death. |
| 21:56.13 | JoshH | what about overcharging them, like KBR? |
| 22:00.35 | {-} | Overcharging is less heinous... How about allowing soldiers going through physical therapy use them as punching bags? |
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| 22:09.06 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 22:44.40 | elg | soldiers have to go through physical therapy to use punching bags? |
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| 22:57.48 | Tene | That's not what he said at all... |
| 22:58.41 | JoshH | how about we allow soldiers in training to use them as targets |
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| 23:54.32 | TimRiker | bored? vote for Emily again: http://www.exploremodeling.com/Contest/Faceof_ELF_2010/19678/Emily_Hone.aspx |
| 23:56.15 | JoshH | i'm bored, but i don't think that's going to cure it |
| 23:58.54 | eightyeight | who's emily hone? |