| 00:09.02 | sjansen | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1725619/can-you-recommend-a-go-language-web-framework |
| 00:14.15 | Nafai | Yeah, I saw that |
| 00:14.17 | Nafai | hilarious |
| 00:19.52 | TimRiker | missed the PLUG meeting last night. Didn't get back from NY for the CES Innovations awards in time. |
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| 00:24.05 | Nafai | TimRiker: I hear you are building a Android phone |
| 00:30.09 | sjansen | pauses to hate on proprietary software |
| 00:35.13 | Nafai | hate on brother! |
| 00:39.02 | TimRiker | Nafai: yes. http://google.com/#q=saygus there's been a bit of press on it. The handset won CES Innovations award for 2010. I was at the award ceremony in NYC this week. |
| 00:39.28 | Nafai | Cool. Yeah, I've seen some of the announcements. |
| 00:39.48 | Nafai | TimRiker: Are you guys look for developers? :) |
| 00:40.02 | TimRiker | this might work better: http://google.com/search?q=saygus |
| 00:41.20 | TimRiker | Nafai: potentially, yes. I need someone to rebuild Android releases and test them on them on the handset. This will eventually include kernel and bootloader debugging too. |
| 00:42.06 | TimRiker | I'm not really looking for any android application developers. looking for someone that can build android itself. |
| 00:42.21 | Nafai | nods |
| 00:42.47 | Nafai | I definitely could learn. I don't have a problem with C level development and I have a lot of Java experience. |
| 01:11.38 | jalbretsen | TimRiker: CES Innovations awards last night? I think you mean the CMA Awards. |
| 01:11.40 | jalbretsen | ;) |
| 01:13.16 | TimRiker | jalbretsen: it was Nov 10th. PLUG was last night. :) |
| 01:14.52 | TimRiker | http://www.cesweb.org/awards/innovations/2010honorees.asp |
| 01:14.53 | brac | [2010 CES: Innovations Honorees] |
| 01:17.21 | jalbretsen | he he |
| 01:18.44 | TimRiker | eats dinner. hmm, should I twitter that too? |
| 01:31.35 | sjansen | TimRiker: congrats |
| 02:01.48 | TimRiker | sjansen: thx! |
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| 02:18.24 | elg | http://dustin.github.com/2009/10/23/mac-zfs.html |
| 02:18.30 | brac | [ZFS for MacOS X] |
| 02:20.33 | sjansen | Silly Mac user, you should be happy that Steve doesn't want you to have ZFS. |
| 02:20.46 | sjansen | Who are you to question the wisdom of Steve? |
| 02:20.52 | elg | :-) |
| 02:20.54 | sjansen | Nobody! You are nobody! |
| 02:20.57 | elg | disclaimer that I haven't tried it (yet) |
| 02:21.01 | sjansen | Bow before Steve! |
| 02:21.10 | sjansen | Bow! |
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| 02:25.46 | elg | Superbill will save us from Steve, just as soon as he gets sober. |
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| 07:38.08 | tensai | gah! get off the phone already so I can do my maintenance. |
| 07:38.29 | Tene | set off the fire alarm |
| 08:00.55 | tensai | I'm getting tempted to. they hung up and then called back. as if 2 1/2 hours on the phone wasn't enough. |
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| 10:36.25 | tensai | and off to bed. those yahoos never did get off the stupid phone, btw. |
| 10:36.36 | tensai | luckily I figured out a way to restart the server without hanging up on them |
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| 16:06.59 | eightyeight | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd15YVb2M6M |
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| 17:20.47 | unum | anyone know senator Urquhart? I'd like to see the draft legislation he has for Internet Security. |
| 17:22.39 | Jayce^ | I've met him, good guy.. but he's from down south, don't exactly see him much |
| 17:26.31 | synic | eggyknap: ping |
| 17:27.05 | eggyknap | synic: pong |
| 17:27.22 | fozzmoo | Wasn't urquhart considering running against Hatch in 2006? |
| 17:27.30 | JoshH | he's making something for internet security? |
| 17:31.02 | Nafai | I'd love to see Hatch get voted out |
| 17:31.53 | ^Migs^ | Hatch isn't going away anytime soon |
| 17:31.59 | ^Migs^ | He's all anyone's known around here |
| 17:32.22 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: I think he's probably serving his last term right now. |
| 17:33.19 | JoshH | maybe shurtleff is waiting to try to replace him |
| 17:33.25 | JoshH | instead of risking losing to bennett |
| 17:36.05 | ^Migs^ | fozzmoo: I hope you're right |
| 17:36.17 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: ditto |
| 17:36.20 | Nafai | JoshH: Heh, that would be an interesting twist |
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| 17:37.01 | unum | the rumor is that hatch plans to retire |
| 17:37.22 | unum | but ya urquhart has a law related to "internet security" |
| 17:37.33 | unum | including trademarks..... |
| 17:37.36 | unum | idiots |
| 17:37.57 | unum | it's also about phishing and spyware |
| 17:38.07 | unum | I'd really like to see the wording |
| 17:38.32 | unum | but they rarely give it to the democrats on the committee more than 24 hours in advance |
| 17:39.32 | JoshH | oh well, it will probably be nothing more than another utah legislature tech blunder that becomes another embarrassing utah thread on slashdot |
| 17:40.09 | fozzmoo | Wow. |
| 17:40.16 | fozzmoo | Nice swing of public opinion. http://www.gallup.com/poll/124253/Say-Health-Coverage-Not-Gov-Responsibility.aspx |
| 17:41.32 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: nice |
| 17:44.02 | unum | hmm when a republican was president more republican thought health care should be managed by the federal government |
| 17:44.20 | unum | but since a democrat took off they have changed their minds |
| 17:44.35 | Nafai | unum: hear hear |
| 17:44.39 | goozbach | vimperts |
| 17:44.42 | goozbach | here's a question |
| 17:45.01 | goozbach | how do I open a file at a certian point in edit mode? |
| 17:45.28 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Like, open the file and have the cursor be at a certain position? |
| 17:45.29 | goozbach | ie I have a script which is appending some text to a file before firiing up vim |
| 17:45.48 | goozbach | I want vim to open at the last line in edit mode |
| 17:46.35 | fungus | :e FILE<ret>Gi |
| 17:46.52 | Nafai | goozbach: vim <file> + |
| 17:47.09 | goozbach | I know that Gi is the keyseq |
| 17:47.15 | goozbach | Nafai: the + is the key? |
| 17:47.26 | fozzmoo | Nafai: That's pretty cool. Puts the cursor on the last line. |
| 17:47.45 | Nafai | goozbach: Oh, that's from the command line |
| 17:47.54 | Nafai | <- emacs uesr |
| 17:47.56 | Nafai | ser |
| 17:47.57 | Nafai | user |
| 17:48.07 | goozbach | manpage I suppose |
| 17:50.06 | fungus | cool. I like the + options. |
| 17:50.40 | ^Migs^ | fozzmoo: Lol, I love how Americans can't make up their minds |
| 17:50.44 | Nafai | goozbach: what, something's wrong with me for using vim --help? :) |
| 17:51.12 | goozbach | vim -c is close |
| 17:51.22 | ^Migs^ | I'm more of the opinion that the government should help ensure that Americans don't get screwed by health care coverage |
| 17:51.27 | goozbach | vim -c :i $file + |
| 17:51.43 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: It could be that, or maybe education (or indoctrination?) is causing them to rethink their opinions. |
| 17:51.48 | ^Migs^ | what if I'm, like, insanely healthy and don't NEED health care? |
| 17:52.17 | Nafai | fozzmoo: What options? |
| 17:52.22 | ^Migs^ | I shouldn't be forced to participate in a government health care program at my expense, just because everyone else is an obese disgusting slob with heart problems |
| 17:52.37 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: Exactly. You should be able to take that risk. |
| 17:52.44 | Nafai | ^Migs^: that is a very narrow and biggoted opinion though |
| 17:52.52 | Nafai | I am not an obese slob |
| 17:52.59 | ^Migs^ | if the government is going to enforce health care, they also need to enforce healthy lifestyles. Mandatory daily exercise, ban smoking, etc. |
| 17:53.02 | Nafai | I had a kidney transplant |
| 17:53.09 | fozzmoo | Nafai: You're a non-obese slob? |
| 17:53.11 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 17:53.16 | Nafai | not because of any lifestyle choices I have made |
| 17:53.24 | ^Migs^ | I was speaking hypothetically |
| 17:53.25 | Nafai | but I am high risk according to insurance companies |
| 17:53.29 | ^Migs^ | I should be able to CHOOSE to opt out of it |
| 17:53.44 | Nafai | so I can only get insurance from a group health plan |
| 17:53.48 | Nafai | I am currently unemployed |
| 17:53.58 | goozbach | figured it out |
| 17:54.00 | Nafai | so when cobra runs out if I'm not employed by a company with a health plan |
| 17:54.05 | Nafai | I have no insurance |
| 17:54.07 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Congrats. |
| 17:54.09 | goozbach | vim $FILE + -c start |
| 17:54.22 | Nafai | no insurance == no medicine, no labs, no doctor visits |
| 17:54.26 | Nafai | none of that == death |
| 17:54.39 | Nafai | so don't talk to me about the government taking away my rights |
| 17:54.51 | Nafai | a private company that I have no influence over could be taking away my life by default |
| 17:55.03 | ^Migs^ | see, you're someone who should be able to opt into government health care, then, while I, assuming I were perfectly and ridiculously healthy, should be able to opt out |
| 17:55.54 | JoshH | ^Migs^: you should still have to pay at least somethign to cover the possibility of emergency treatment though |
| 17:55.55 | fozzmoo | Nafai: There are obviously some people who really, truly NEED coverage. |
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| 17:56.03 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 17:56.13 | fozzmoo | ~lart sjansen for sighing |
| 17:56.13 | ibot | takes a rusty axe and swings it violently, taking sjansen's head off for sighing |
| 17:56.24 | sjansen | What is it about the SUSE engineers that drives them to design such complicated and yet useless crap? |
| 17:56.32 | fozzmoo | sjansen: German heritage? |
| 17:56.36 | ^Migs^ | All the Congressmen should be forced to enroll in the new government health plan |
| 17:56.38 | JoshH | why are you using suse anyway, and therefore caring? |
| 17:56.52 | ^Migs^ | JoshH: No, I should be able to use my own health plans |
| 17:57.21 | JoshH | indeed, but if you have no coverage at all, and get your legs cut off during your commute sometime, how will you pay? |
| 17:57.24 | Nafai | fozzmoo: true, but most of the arguments about health care reform seem to be in the form of ^Migs^'s theoretical situation above. "I don't want to pay for lazy slobby people so I don't want this" |
| 17:57.41 | JoshH | conservatives think everyone else is a lazy slob |
| 17:57.42 | Nafai | fozzmoo: which completely offends me that that is their entire argument |
| 17:58.04 | ^Migs^ | Therefore, we should form a committee that identifies each lazy slob, and adds a special lazy slob tax |
| 17:58.17 | ^Migs^ | that would resolve this issue |
| 17:58.18 | fungus | Nafai is just one example of many that clearly indicates the *need* for health care reform. |
| 17:58.25 | fozzmoo | My argument is that the government has failed spectacularly every time it tries to directly manage healthcare... why would we choose to give it more responsibility. |
| 17:58.37 | Nafai | Sorry if I'm combative |
| 17:58.55 | Nafai | I'm just in the perfect storm condition for things to get worse for me |
| 17:58.58 | ^Migs^ | No, you just have a chip on your shoulder |
| 17:59.01 | fungus | Now the requirement that ^Migs^ is complaining about, it one small detail in a particular solution. |
| 17:59.13 | Nafai | major pre-existing condition + unemployed |
| 17:59.17 | fungus | Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, comes to mind. |
| 17:59.41 | ^Migs^ | All I originally said was that people should be able to opt out in some fashion |
| 17:59.50 | ^Migs^ | Somehow, you took that personally |
| 17:59.59 | fozzmoo | opt out = hate! |
| 18:00.06 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 18:00.13 | goozbach | Nafai: IIRC the republican plan has provisions for the "uninsurable" |
| 18:00.18 | fungus | to be fair, ^Migs^, you said it in a very mean, unkind way |
| 18:00.23 | JoshH | maybe the public option should only cover those with preexisting conditions that are basically guaranteed to be a drain on insurance companies |
| 18:00.29 | goozbach | but doesn't require *EVERYONE* to be insured |
| 18:00.31 | ^Migs^ | to be fair, everyone needs to lighten up |
| 18:00.32 | Nafai | ^Migs^: it was your second half that I took major issue to |
| 18:00.40 | ^Migs^ | I don't like the republican plan either |
| 18:00.42 | fozzmoo | Obese slobs |
| 18:00.46 | Nafai | is rather light |
| 18:00.47 | JoshH | the republicans have a plan, other than "kill whatever the dems do at any cost"? |
| 18:00.48 | fozzmoo | You're all obese slobs! |
| 18:00.50 | ^Migs^ | I think a merger of the Democratic and Republican plans would be ideal |
| 18:00.53 | Nafai | is not an obese slob |
| 18:01.04 | fozzmoo | I'm kidding. |
| 18:01.08 | ^Migs^ | Nafai: You really thought I was saying you were an obese slob? |
| 18:01.53 | Nafai | ^Migs^: No, that was part of a lame joke just there. "Nafai is rather light" "Nafai is no an obese slob" |
| 18:02.17 | ^Migs^ | deep down, aren't we all obese slobs? |
| 18:02.19 | Nafai | ^Migs^: But I did take issue with the generalization that the only ones who need health care are obese slobs, even if it was just hyperbole |
| 18:02.24 | Nafai | probably |
| 18:02.27 | ^Migs^ | we're basically all just pointing fingers |
| 18:02.31 | Nafai | we do sit all day in front of computers |
| 18:02.34 | Nafai | :) |
| 18:02.54 | Nafai | btw, I'm not mad at anyone |
| 18:02.58 | tristanbob | anyone tried OpenShot for video editing? http://www.openshotvideo.com/ |
| 18:03.02 | ^Migs^ | well, I'm FURIOUS |
| 18:03.04 | Nafai | just frustrated with my own situation :) |
| 18:03.13 | Nafai | tristanbob: Not yet, heard of it though |
| 18:05.29 | fozzmoo | tristanbob: Interesting. They use MLT which was designed for kdenlive. |
| 18:05.46 | Nafai | Is MLT the video processing library? |
| 18:05.53 | fozzmoo | yeah. |
| 18:06.13 | Nafai | cool |
| 18:06.22 | Nafai | I haven't had any luck with video processing on Linux |
| 18:06.31 | fozzmoo | It's finally getting there. |
| 18:06.41 | fozzmoo | I'm doing a lot of stuff in Linux that I couldn't do before. |
| 18:06.46 | fozzmoo | Namely, capture and transcoding. |
| 18:06.49 | Nafai | that's awesome |
| 18:06.53 | fozzmoo | The actually editing is still hit and miss. |
| 18:07.04 | fozzmoo | kdenlive is coming very close, but it's still unstable. |
| 18:07.15 | Nafai | what do you use for the rest -- final cut pro on Windows? |
| 18:07.17 | sjansen | JoshH: Because we officially support SLES. We get payed the big bucks for figuring out their undocumented crap. |
| 18:07.36 | fozzmoo | Ulead MediaStudio Pro on Winbloze. I've been using it for about a decade. |
| 18:07.43 | fozzmoo | It's a lot like Premiere or Vegas. |
| 18:07.49 | Nafai | ah |
| 18:08.02 | Nafai | sjansen: Who do you work for? |
| 18:08.07 | fozzmoo | Nafai: Guru Labs. |
| 18:08.16 | Nafai | ah |
| 18:08.26 | Nafai | I'm so glad I haven't had to deal with SLES |
| 18:08.52 | fozzmoo | IMO, SUSE isn't too bad until you have to deal with yast. :) |
| 18:09.09 | sjansen | At least it's F/OSS so I can crack open the source if I need to. |
| 18:09.34 | sjansen | Working with SLES is better than working with proprietary software any day of the week. |
| 18:09.43 | Nafai | sjansen: amen to that one |
| 18:09.44 | fozzmoo | Much of Suse seems to fit the "overengineered" label. |
| 18:09.52 | JoshH | i'm just an anti-suse bigot |
| 18:09.56 | JoshH | since it's not debian |
| 18:10.00 | JoshH | and it's not even rh |
| 18:10.21 | fozzmoo | JoshH: pfft. |
| 18:11.42 | sjansen | Novell buying SuSE has improved the distro a lot, but until they purge the original engineers it's doomed to have an overly complicated, poorly implemented, rotten core. |
| 18:12.40 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 18:12.42 | sjansen | Baroque art is often ugly, and baroque software is often broken. |
| 18:13.04 | fozzmoo | sjansen: :) |
| 18:13.09 | Sargun | Baroque? |
| 18:13.20 | fungus | ~wiki Baroque |
| 18:13.21 | sinuhe | sjansen: I would not associate SUSE with the baroque |
| 18:13.26 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Sorry- behind your time. |
| 18:13.51 | goozbach | fozzmoo: behind yours as well :) |
| 18:13.52 | sjansen | Standard disclaimer: Everything I said, while true, merely reflects reality and not the opinion of my employer. |
| 18:13.59 | sinuhe | I think ibot definition is limited, leaving out the theological implications of Baroque art. |
| 18:14.05 | sinuhe | s/ibot/ibot's/ |
| 18:14.09 | fozzmoo | goozbach: No, according to Sargun, the rest of us are ancient history. |
| 18:14.28 | goozbach | I see |
| 18:14.41 | Sargun | No, goozbach isn't quite ancient history...some others in here are just modern history |
| 18:15.05 | sinuhe | Implications and motivation. |
| 18:15.06 | goozbach | I'm not ancient history... yet? |
| 18:15.34 | goozbach | I just realized it's 1:15 and I haven't eaten lunch |
| 18:15.42 | Sargun | goozbach, Naw, all ancientness is related to my age. |
| 18:15.50 | Nafai | goozbach: dude, this is #utah. It's 11:15 |
| 18:16.00 | goozbach | oh yeah |
| 18:16.10 | Sargun | Fri Nov 13 10:16:10 PST 2009 |
| 18:16.14 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:16.22 | goozbach | I just realized it's 1:15 and I haven't eaten lunch |
| 18:16.22 | sjansen | "In informal usage, the word baroque can simply mean that something is "elaborate", with many details, without reference to the Baroque styles of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque |
| 18:16.27 | goozbach | ooh oops |
| 18:16.37 | Nafai | goozbach: so do you guys have flooding there? |
| 18:16.49 | goozbach | not at our house luckily |
| 18:16.57 | goozbach | but it was *BAD* in september |
| 18:17.09 | JoshH | how did you end up down there anyway? |
| 18:17.10 | goozbach | I got out just ahead of the nasty pictures you saw on the news |
| 18:17.21 | goozbach | by about 2 hrs |
| 18:17.34 | Jayce^ | got to use the BOB eh? :) |
| 18:17.39 | goozbach | (my wife made me come home, and I'm lucky she did) |
| 18:17.46 | JoshH | you like it? |
| 18:17.54 | sjansen | "In modern usage, the term "Baroque" may still be used, usually pejoratively, describing works of art, craft, or design that are thought to have excessive ornamentation or complexity of line, or, as a synonym for "Byzantine", to describe literature, computer software, contracts, or laws that are thought to be excessively complex, indirect, or obscure in language, to the extent of concealing or confusing their meaning. A "Baroque fear" is dee |
| 18:17.55 | sjansen | ply felt, but utterly beyond daily reality." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque |
| 18:17.55 | goozbach | JoshH: Georgia, yeah |
| 18:18.05 | JoshH | i've driven around all over GA, but didn't do much cool stuff |
| 18:18.19 | goozbach | I really miss open spaces and the mountains |
| 18:18.19 | JoshH | i just remember atlanta being very green, and having massive superfreeways |
| 18:18.24 | JoshH | and savannah being cool |
| 18:18.37 | fozzmoo | Yeah- Driving through deep green canyons. |
| 18:18.50 | JoshH | it was like the entire city was covered by shrubs |
| 18:18.52 | goozbach | but yeah, I ended up here because that's where my wife is from |
| 18:18.57 | goozbach | it's tree jungle |
| 18:19.04 | goozbach | and Jayce^ didn't have to use the BOB |
| 18:19.13 | goozbach | luckily |
| 18:19.23 | goozbach | but I did think of some things to add to it on that trip |
| 18:19.29 | goozbach | boots for one |
| 18:19.43 | goozbach | (I know, I should have already had them) |
| 18:21.38 | Sargun | lmao, this company has a ghetto MoH implementation. They're just hooking up a stereo via 3.5 mm to the phone |
| 18:22.12 | goozbach | Sargun: that's awesome |
| 18:22.18 | JoshH | goozbach: you ever go up to the blue ridge/great smoky mountains? |
| 18:22.31 | Jayce^ | http://www.eatmedaily.com/2009/11/mmmvelopes-bacon-flavored-envelopes-from-the-makers-of-bacon-salt-and-baconnaise/ |
| 18:22.52 | goozbach | we did the same thing at a grocery store I worked at except it was using dish network music stations |
| 18:22.59 | goozbach | or perhaps musak |
| 18:23.12 | goozbach | JoshH: yeah, my F-I-L is from Blue Ridge |
| 18:23.28 | JoshH | not quite the rockies, but still beautiful |
| 18:23.33 | goozbach | and I had a cousin (my side of the family) who lived there |
| 18:23.49 | goozbach | most beautiful place I've found in georgia |
| 18:24.04 | goozbach | the family still has some land on the blue ridge mnts |
| 18:24.10 | goozbach | but no cabin :( |
| 18:24.19 | goozbach | I should purchase it and fix that |
| 18:30.14 | Jayce^ | yes, yes you should |
| 18:33.50 | sjansen | "the static settings have to be used only, when no dynamic are avaliable" <-- proof that you can't just put a comma anywhere and get away with it |
| 18:46.41 | *** join/#utah romanovic (n=mclark@216.112.117.10.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:19.31 | goozbach | sjansen: what are you using org-mode for? |
| 19:19.56 | goozbach | what do most people use org-mode for? |
| 19:21.02 | Nafai | planning, note keeping, organization, etc |
| 19:23.56 | goozbach | hmm |
| 19:24.30 | goozbach | cause I just released my whatdid script |
| 19:25.52 | Nafai | flexible agenda views are available. linking to various things (other org mode files, other files, urls, etc). built in tables with a mini-spreadsheet. exporting to LaTeX or html. Great outlining. |
| 19:27.03 | fungus | goozbach, link? |
| 19:27.15 | levi | org-mode is awesome. |
| 19:27.45 | Nafai | levi: indeed it is |
| 19:27.53 | fungus | That sounds great, but I don't want to have to re-learn emacs again. |
| 19:28.14 | levi | You should never have un-learned it. ;) |
| 19:28.21 | fungus | I switched years ago, and all I remember is C-x C-c |
| 19:28.43 | goozbach | fungus: diddo |
| 19:28.45 | goozbach | ditto |
| 19:29.13 | goozbach | fungus: my script is uber simple |
| 19:29.23 | goozbach | http://github.com/goozbach/whatdid |
| 19:29.30 | levi | I never switched to or from emacs/vim, I just use them both. |
| 19:29.31 | goozbach | you type whatdid |
| 19:29.58 | goozbach | and it pops open an editor (vim) and lets you list your task |
| 19:30.27 | goozbach | when the week is up, you can cat the files together and use that to generate a "this is what I did" report |
| 19:30.28 | fungus | that's cool. |
| 19:30.35 | goozbach | with timestamps |
| 19:30.57 | fungus | I have an IRC channel with a bot that collates everything daily for the boss |
| 19:31.13 | goozbach | I've additionally setup remind to pop up every $(billable unit) and remind me to record my whatdid info |
| 19:31.38 | fungus | aha, that's what I really need. reminder. that's the hardest part. :) |
| 19:33.13 | Nafai | oh and org-mode lets you clock in and out of tasks, makes it easy to make time reports |
| 19:33.17 | goozbach | I used remind-gui to build my rule |
| 19:41.42 | goozbach | http://www.gocomics.com/reynoldsunwrapped/2009/11/03/ |
| 20:22.25 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 20:22.25 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:27.07 | tensai | o/~ close every door to me. hide all the world from me. ~/o |
| 20:32.25 | sjansen | ~close tensai's door |
| 20:32.25 | ibot | ACTION stands too close to tensai's door ala http://www.whiteninjacomics.com/comics/tooclose.shtml |
| 20:32.28 | brac | [white ninja comics] |
| 20:37.19 | unum | interesting. |
| 20:38.04 | unum | I guess I shouldn't be suprised that people don't know what they are fighting about |
| 21:00.58 | mulicheng | So I set up glusterfs on a couple servers. |
| 21:01.02 | mulicheng | It is based on fuse |
| 21:01.17 | mulicheng | all the file system is in user space basically. |
| 21:01.25 | mulicheng | but it works pretty well so far. |
| 21:01.44 | mulicheng | You can do raid0, 1, 10 etc similar setups. |
| 21:01.53 | mulicheng | basically whatever you want. |
| 21:34.35 | *** join/#utah ldav15 (n=ldav15@67.214.231.154) |
| 21:47.51 | elg | levi: best emacs version for windows? |
| 21:48.08 | elg | for someone just getting started with Real Editors⢠|
| 21:48.44 | jlp_work | http://www.ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html |
| 21:48.46 | brac | [EmacsW32 Home Page] |
| 22:09.11 | fozzmoo | http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9BUREPO0&show_article=1 |
| 22:18.35 | levi | elg: What jlp_work said |
| 22:27.06 | fozzmoo | http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2009/11/13/guns-or-butter/ |
| 22:29.02 | macnewbold | I'll second/third/etc. the choice of emacs or xemacs |
| 22:29.54 | fozzmoo | I used to be an Emacs guy. |
| 22:30.08 | sjansen | Chicago Mayor Richard Daley recently blamed the Fort Hood shootings on âAmericaâs love affair with guns.â |
| 22:30.24 | fozzmoo | Then I had to work on a SCO Xenix system with no Internet access (circa 1992) and was forced to learn vi inside and out. |
| 22:30.47 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@out1-1601fw.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:30.47 | sjansen | Because it would have been _really_ hard for someone in the military to get a gun in another country. |
| 22:30.47 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 22:31.18 | unum | the democrats are proposing something very similiar to food stamps with health care |
| 22:31.30 | levi | I used to be an emacs guy. Then I was a vim guy. Now I use both. |
| 22:31.32 | unum | of course we already have medicaid |
| 22:31.52 | unum | but the new plan will allow poor people to choose their health care plan |
| 22:32.03 | unum | from the market |
| 22:37.36 | unum | the funny thing is very few people seem to care about the mandate to carry health insurance |
| 22:37.48 | unum | they're all throwing a fit about weather or not there'll be a public option |
| 22:37.56 | unum | I don't really care about the public option |
| 22:37.59 | unum | it doesn't matter |
| 22:38.21 | mulicheng | I don't like the mandate to carry it. I want to be able to choose. |
| 22:38.27 | unum | actually I think bennet's suggestion of moving regulation to the federal level is a good idea |
| 22:38.34 | mulicheng | So if I choose to carry it fine, if I choose not fine. |
| 22:38.55 | unum | mulicheng: do you have an option right now? |
| 22:38.58 | unum | I don't |
| 22:39.05 | unum | my employer has decided that I will have it |
| 22:39.10 | mulicheng | Sure, I pay for my own insurance every month. |
| 22:39.14 | unum | which is much better than him deciding that I won't...... |
| 22:39.17 | mulicheng | I could drop it any time. |
| 22:39.38 | mulicheng | If the costs go up any more, I may decide to take my chances. |
| 22:39.51 | unum | the costs are going to go up |
| 22:39.55 | unum | but you won't have a choice |
| 22:40.08 | mulicheng | because for the 99% of cases that we actually use the doctor for, I pay far more in insurance premiums than I would if I just paid the bill. |
| 22:40.51 | unum | I really hate the way health insurance works |
| 22:40.59 | unum | you could just switch to catostrophic |
| 22:41.01 | Nafai | me too |
| 22:41.08 | mulicheng | I've thought about catostrophic. |
| 22:41.15 | mulicheng | I'm very close to doing that. |
| 22:41.19 | unum | of course I'm an evil socialist |
| 22:41.28 | unum | I would take tri-care if they would let me |
| 22:41.33 | unum | my brother in law loves it |
| 22:41.47 | mulicheng | My one hold up is that we may have another child in the future and catostrophic has 0 maternity benefit |
| 22:41.50 | Nafai | some people suggested that a way to improve health care costs was to move all of the day-to-day stuff (regular check-ups, generic and other inexpensive prescriptions, etc) to self-pay (via an HSA if you so choose) |
| 22:42.22 | mulicheng | Nafai: I think those people are on to something. |
| 22:42.23 | unum | I read a columnist who talked about trying to get a price on an mri |
| 22:42.28 | Nafai | And then major cost items -- like pregnancy, accidents, major health issues (transplants, cancer, etc) -- would be covered under your insurance |
| 22:42.31 | unum | no one would give him a price |
| 22:42.36 | unum | because that's just not how it's done |
| 22:42.41 | fozzmoo | unum: Either way, the government is sticking it's big, fat, ugly nose into something it's never been good at doing. |
| 22:42.47 | harleypig | were there any slides for plug? are they available online somewhere? |
| 22:42.50 | sjansen | Why is it that people think so differently about health insurance than fire insurance? |
| 22:42.56 | unum | fozzmoo: I lack faith in the free market |
| 22:42.58 | unum | and always will |
| 22:43.02 | mulicheng | The government isn't very good at doing anything that I know of these days.. except spending. |
| 22:43.02 | Nafai | fozzmoo: How do we get the insurance companies to change then? |
| 22:43.19 | unum | mulicheng: my toilet still flushes |
| 22:43.33 | fozzmoo | I think there's a role for government, sure. Just not as a provider or management role. |
| 22:43.35 | Nafai | fozzmoo: All I'm hearing is the government sucks at this but no real answers on how else to fix it |
| 22:43.51 | sjansen | Health insurance is no more about getting your doctor's visit payed for than fire insurance is about getting free sprinklers for your house. |
| 22:43.51 | levi | sjansen: Because they're pretty different? |
| 22:43.56 | mulicheng | unum: you lost me. |
| 22:44.03 | unum | fozzmoo: all the government does is manage |
| 22:44.11 | fozzmoo | unum: You're wrong. |
| 22:44.14 | sjansen | Insurance is about paying for catastrophic events. |
| 22:44.19 | Nafai | sjansen: That's the unfortunate thing, it's turned out that insurance has been used for day-to-day |
| 22:44.28 | fozzmoo | If all they did was manage, we woudln't have major cost overruns w/ Medicare and Medicaid. |
| 22:44.37 | Nafai | It should be about catostrophic and high-price care |
| 22:44.55 | unum | mulicheng: who runs your water system where you live |
| 22:44.58 | Nafai | Reduced load on insurance companies and medical practioners would reduce costs |
| 22:45.05 | levi | sjansen: That's what fire insurance is for. Health insurance is a bit of a misnomer. |
| 22:45.22 | fozzmoo | (1) Let insurance companies compete across state lines. |
| 22:45.38 | Nafai | And if the silly pre-existing condition thing was fixed somehow, a lot more people would be covered |
| 22:45.39 | fozzmoo | (2) Establish malpractice payout caps. |
| 22:45.57 | mulicheng | unum: oh, I got you now. Perhaps local governments and federal governments should be qualified separately for my previous statement. |
| 22:46.00 | Nafai | 2 - amen on that one, there is too much CYA going on because dr's are afraid |
| 22:46.00 | fozzmoo | (3) Allow reforms at the state level. |
| 22:46.04 | unum | caps are bad |
| 22:46.09 | unum | but I agree with 1 |
| 22:46.14 | unum | but that conflicts with 3 |
| 22:46.28 | harleypig | unum: I parsed that as 'cops are bad' and I was going to agree ... |
| 22:46.36 | fozzmoo | unum: The Fed. govt established caps on damages from airline crashes back in the 1960s and it has worked out fine. |
| 22:46.37 | unum | mulicheng: in that case, I don't trust the private sector to not give me e. coli |
| 22:46.46 | mulicheng | The do some times. |
| 22:46.51 | sjansen | No it doesn't. Walmart is perfectly capable of dealing with local laws while spanning the nation. |
| 22:46.54 | unum | admittedly the federal government was having some issues for a while.... |
| 22:46.54 | mulicheng | s/The/they |
| 22:46.55 | levi | Then all insurance will be reformed to the level of the state with the most insurance-profit-friendly policies. |
| 22:47.16 | unum | fozzmoo: the government also took on a roll of regulating and inspecting the airlines |
| 22:48.06 | sjansen | The government does a lot of things well. |
| 22:48.18 | mulicheng | Who here wants to argue the TSA is doing us any favors. |
| 22:48.24 | fozzmoo | The government established strict guidelines and has its own investigation bureau, but the airlines maintain and inspect their own aircrafts. |
| 22:48.35 | Nafai | I don't know what the right solution is. All I know is that the current system is so screwed up that my health issues are limiting my career choices, not because they make me incapable of doing the things I want to do, but not being able to get insurance and then not get the care I need is limiting me |
| 22:48.48 | harleypig | mulicheng: They are hilighting the weakness in the idea that more control is better. |
| 22:48.55 | Nafai | mulicheng: TSA isn't in charge of aircraft, as far as I know |
| 22:48.56 | sjansen | From facing down communist Russia to getting the streets plowed, people prefer to whine instead of recognizing how well our nation runs. |
| 22:49.16 | Nafai | mulicheng: I think the FAA is |
| 22:49.28 | unum | the FAA also inspects the the airplanes |
| 22:49.33 | mulicheng | Perhaps if we ran our nation well without spending money we don't have people wouldn't complain as much. |
| 22:49.50 | unum | mulicheng: we did that in the late 90's |
| 22:49.52 | sjansen | Try living in a third world nation. Except for health care, we're among the best run nations, large or small. |
| 22:49.54 | mulicheng | I've worked for the federal before. |
| 22:49.58 | unum | and threw out the people who did it |
| 22:50.15 | Nafai | Perhaps if we ran our nation well without spending money on things that don't help this country (like certain wars...) |
| 22:50.16 | harleypig | sjansen: those are two different topics, covered by differing levels of government. |
| 22:50.18 | mulicheng | even when it was a good good good economy... and guess what, I saw more waste than I've seen anywhere else. |
| 22:50.23 | unum | we had zero deficit spending for several years prior to 2001 |
| 22:50.36 | unum | but then we elected someone who campaigned on cutting federal income |
| 22:50.49 | mulicheng | even the things the government does well, it spends more money than the job requires. |
| 22:50.53 | sjansen | harleypig: No they aren't. When was the last time the Fed plowed your streets or the city council toppled communism? |
| 22:51.38 | unum | mulicheng: but there are things that the free market can't handle |
| 22:51.54 | unum | the answer is open government, not anarchy |
| 22:51.57 | harleypig | sjansen: huh? that's my point ... The feds handle international relations and situations well (for the most part) and local government handles plowing the road ... different levels of government. |
| 22:52.17 | Nafai | besides, look what the 'free market' alone gets you -- things like Bernie Madoff and derivatives trading and housing bubbles |
| 22:52.37 | sjansen | Funny thing is, under a democratic congress and a democratic president, we managed to pay down the debt. Under a republican congress and president, the deficit exploded. And don't come at me with 9/11 'cause that doesn't include drug benefits or tax cuts. |
| 22:52.38 | harleypig | Nafai: Bernie Madoff and his ilk are *rare* in the free market system. |
| 22:52.45 | levi | Heh, this conversation is going nowhere fast. :) |
| 22:53.22 | harleypig | sjansen: ummm ... a democratic president is proposing to triple our national debt |
| 22:53.28 | unum | burns down the anarchists home |
| 22:53.36 | unum | don't call the police! that's communism! |
| 22:53.43 | unum | harleypig: link? |
| 22:53.45 | harleypig | levi: true ... it rarely does anything else. |
| 22:53.46 | sjansen | harleypig: Following the pattern established by his predecessor. |
| 22:54.00 | unum | the debt or the deficit |
| 22:54.02 | sjansen | Remember, the bail outs started before Obama took office. |
| 22:54.15 | harleypig | unum: err .. not sure. |
| 22:54.18 | unum | I thought all bail outs where part of tarp |
| 22:54.42 | unum | the stimulus package wasn't a bail out, it was a large spending bill |
| 22:54.52 | harleypig | tbh, I'm not sure what the difference between deficit and debt is. |
| 22:54.59 | unum | well a large part of it was tax cuts |
| 22:55.11 | Nafai | harleypig: are you sure? how would he have been caught without effective regulation (notice I said effective, the SEC or whoever was supposed to be auditing him did a horrible job for years) |
| 22:55.17 | fozzmoo | rolls his eyes.... out the door and down the street. |
| 22:55.21 | unum | deficit is how much you go in debt per year, debt is how much you currently owe |
| 22:55.27 | Nafai | harleypig: I admit to knowing little about economics and such |
| 22:55.42 | levi | deficit is the amount that your fiscal year's expenses exceed your income. Debt it the accumulated amount owed to others. |
| 22:55.49 | Nafai | Yeah, the more I read about the 90s, the more I realize that things were good during the Clinton era. We just got distracted by the whole intern thing. |
| 22:56.12 | Jayce^ | looks in, ooh boy... |
| 22:56.24 | Jayce^ | unum: zero deficit spending, you're kidding, right? |
| 22:56.34 | fozzmoo | Things were good during the 90s, not because of Clinton (or anyone else), but because we were riding the wave of amazing technology breakthroughs and major peacetime due to the fall of the Iron Curtain. |
| 22:56.36 | unum | Jayce^: during the late 90's no |
| 22:56.40 | Jayce^ | nope |
| 22:56.42 | unum | I'm not kidding |
| 22:56.55 | Jayce^ | you might want to look a little closer at the numbers |
| 22:57.14 | levi | Things looked good in the 90s because there was a huge market bubble. |
| 22:57.14 | harleypig | Nafai: a free market generally makes cheating an unprofitable situation in the long run. As long as the companies and people involved in the free market system are keeping an eye in the medium and long term, Bernie Madoff and Enron type situations are going to be kept to a minimum because of market pressure. |
| 22:57.38 | Jayce^ | clinton's supposed "surplus" was accounting games, shifting money |
| 22:57.38 | fozzmoo | unum: I agree with Jayce^. I was fooled into thinking Clinton "balanced the budget" too. THen I looked into the numbers. It was a shell game just as bad as Bush43 played (4 diff. sets of books.)( |
| 22:57.53 | Jayce^ | and his own next year budget blew it out of the water |
| 22:58.01 | sjansen | I'm not a big fan of the "recovery" money, but I think it's rather hypocritical the way republicans try to lay all blame on Obama. The problem was created under republican watch, by a largely deregulated industry, and while they were in power they were all "Oh noes! Release the flood gates of government spending!" now that they're too weak to do anything but stand in the way of action they're all "You're doing it wrong!" when it'd be more ho |
| 22:58.01 | sjansen | nest to say "Stop copying us!" |
| 22:58.03 | Jayce^ | exaclty |
| 22:58.34 | unum | Jayce^: you examined the federal budget? |
| 22:58.38 | fozzmoo | sjansen: I, for one, do not blame just Obama. I blame everyone in Washington who has been irresponsible with our money. |
| 22:58.49 | Jayce^ | unum: I've looked quite a bit more into it than you apparently :) |
| 22:59.12 | unum | Jayce^: I used to read the documents off of omb.gov |
| 22:59.17 | unum | back in the late 90's |
| 22:59.20 | harleypig | fozzmoo: I would add everyone who doesn't bother to hold their government representatives accountable |
| 22:59.21 | fozzmoo | Bush43, Clinton, and Obama have all grown government. Bush43 talked about fixing SSI, but it didn't happen. |
| 22:59.31 | unum | I doubt you really read through them to find that. |
| 22:59.40 | fozzmoo | harleypig: You're right. We're all at fault because, if you're like me, you didn't even know about this stuff until the last year or so. |
| 22:59.49 | unum | fozzmoo: reagan, and bush41 did to |
| 22:59.51 | harleypig | fozzmoo: :] right |
| 22:59.54 | Jayce^ | here's one.. http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16 |
| 22:59.56 | brac | [The Myth of the Clinton Surplus] |
| 23:00.00 | Jayce^ | nice breakdown of the numbers |
| 23:00.19 | unum | how did you not know this stuff until the last year? |
| 23:00.50 | sjansen | Don't blame me, I voted Super Dell. |
| 23:01.03 | Jayce^ | wait wait? who didn't know this? |
| 23:01.19 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: I remember that article. It is great. |
| 23:01.23 | harleypig | unum: Dunno about anyone else, but I was focusing on more personal matters. |
| 23:01.43 | harleypig | Jayce^: I knew bits and pieces but not the greater picture. |
| 23:01.48 | Jayce^ | actually, I ripped on that back when bush was getting elected.. |
| 23:02.06 | harleypig | and it's not just clintons budget, its a fair number of things. |
| 23:02.18 | carmony | I actually blame a lot of our economic issues due to the greater gap growing between the people who own businesses, and the actual people running them. I just think the goverment it just throwing gas on the fire making things worse :P |
| 23:02.19 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 23:03.01 | carmony | I've been meaning to blog about it forawhile :P just need to find teh time to :P |
| 23:03.02 | fozzmoo | carmony: Did you know that 70% of our economy is small businesses? But all the gov. assistance is going to big businesses that have big lobbyist footprints. |
| 23:03.37 | fozzmoo | It's corruption. |
| 23:03.40 | unum | I think the liberals all agree with that |
| 23:03.41 | harleypig | It's amazing what throwing easy women at someone will accomplish |
| 23:03.57 | carmony | Well, the 70% is hard to exactly gauge, but yes, I believe that regardless small businesses have a huge majority portion of the market :P |
| 23:03.59 | fozzmoo | harleypig: Sounds like a grassroot effort. Let's get started. |
| 23:04.20 | harleypig | fozzmoo: what? throwing easy women at someone? wouldn't work for me ... I'd keep'em for myself. |
| 23:04.23 | Jayce^ | throws an easy harleypig at the fedgov |
| 23:04.31 | unum | so if clinton had spent more money on social security funded programs(as I believe was his wish) and less on defense we wouldn't have had a deficit |
| 23:04.31 | harleypig | o_O |
| 23:04.39 | Jayce^ | that'll scare 'em $#%#$less |
| 23:04.52 | unum | though maybe the programs he wanted to spend it on weren't social security funded |
| 23:04.55 | harleypig | Make sure you put me in spandex |
| 23:04.55 | Jayce^ | unum: he slashed defense |
| 23:04.55 | carmony | and the problem with the giants is that the CEOs and such hold such a small stake in their companies, and the actual owners (stock owners, etc) are too far removed from the operations :P |
| 23:04.56 | unum | or did he win that fight |
| 23:05.12 | carmony | and people trade stock like crazy now, almost no one is doing long term investing |
| 23:05.22 | unum | Jayce^: I know he slashed it, but I thought he wanted to slash it more and that's why gingrich shut down the government |
| 23:05.27 | Jayce^ | and even better, he reprioritized it to help companies, and hurt the infrastructure |
| 23:05.29 | carmony | so you have a bunch of owners just trading hands daily |
| 23:06.07 | harleypig | What a quote: "Wal-Mart, the corporate Mordor of the frenzied Left." |
| 23:06.09 | Jayce^ | carmony: not just that, compare the recent climb in the usual markets inversed to the dollars drop :) interesting to see our 'gains' |
| 23:06.17 | fozzmoo | carmony: Yeah- there's absolutely no sense in using the stock market as a barometer of the economy anymore. It's useless. |
| 23:06.35 | Nafai | I guess I don't know much about politics or economics. |
| 23:06.43 | Nafai | All I know is who absolutely don't agree with. :) |
| 23:06.46 | fozzmoo | Nafai: :) |
| 23:06.55 | Nafai | s/who/who I/ |
| 23:06.55 | carmony | yet most public companies are using it at their sole goal and make decisions based off of that |
| 23:07.04 | Jayce^ | nafai, anybody that says they're here to 'help' me :) |
| 23:07.07 | harleypig | Nafai: who don't you agree with ? |
| 23:07.22 | Nafai | harleypig: Most of the modern conservative movement |
| 23:07.27 | Nafai | Glenn Beck and the like |
| 23:07.33 | fozzmoo | glares |
| 23:07.35 | harleypig | Nafai: and why do you disagree with them? |
| 23:07.36 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 23:07.43 | levi | Glenn Beck sucks! |
| 23:07.53 | fozzmoo | levi: heh heh. |
| 23:07.54 | levi | pushes fozzmoo's buttons. ;) |
| 23:07.56 | harleypig | levi: like a vacuum or a black hole? |
| 23:08.03 | Nafai | I don't want to hurt fozzmoo's delicate sensitivities. :) |
| 23:08.25 | unum | there are different levels of bias |
| 23:08.38 | harleypig | don't you mean degrees? |
| 23:08.48 | harleypig | is nitpicky at all the wrong moments |
| 23:08.54 | unum | I have a hard time watching michael moore because I know he's avoiding anything that would disagree with him |
| 23:08.59 | unum | harleypig: ya, degrees |
| 23:09.06 | unum | I can't read the huffingtonpost |
| 23:09.09 | unum | or indymedia |
| 23:09.10 | sjansen | Glenn Beck is a moron. An entertainer displaying fake emotions and telling slanted stories for a profit. |
| 23:09.20 | unum | I can however watch John Stewart |
| 23:09.24 | fozzmoo | Mass marketing a film that slams on capitalism... yeah. |
| 23:09.34 | harleypig | South Park just did a show parodying him ... though they didn't come right out and say it. |
| 23:09.46 | fozzmoo | harleypig: I thought it was hilarious. |
| 23:09.52 | Nafai | harleypig: I just read a book "Conservatives without Conscience" that outlined a lot of what I find wrong; a lot of lies, manipulation, not really being based on the values of the original conservative movement, etc |
| 23:09.55 | carmony | lol, I disagree with the way Glenn reports and such :P |
| 23:10.05 | sjansen | Liberals may have their extremist morons, but at least most of them are too boring to get insipid TV shows. |
| 23:10.10 | unum | Glenn Beck intentionally decieves |
| 23:10.14 | carmony | however, some of the material he reports *is* credibale |
| 23:10.17 | Nafai | harleypig: Now, I don't count myself as a Democrat either, I'm just not as acquainted with their lies and so forth |
| 23:10.18 | harleypig | Nafai: I agree ... but I see the exact same thing on both sides of the system. |
| 23:10.25 | Jayce^ | unum intentionally deceives :-) |
| 23:10.36 | fozzmoo | I've become wary of most conservative pundits, actually. |
| 23:10.37 | unum | carmony: I can't watch anyone who is intentionally decieving me |
| 23:10.47 | carmony | well, he is sensational |
| 23:10.48 | unum | Jayce^: well I hope you would never watch my tv show then |
| 23:11.01 | Nafai | harleypig: I am surrounded (hey, I live in Utah County) and with friends and family by people who buy Beck and Limbaugh and others hook line and sinker and don't have a clue on how to have a decent debate about things |
| 23:11.03 | carmony | I don't know how much of it is straite up deceit |
| 23:11.07 | harleypig | RADICAL MODERATISM!!!1!! |
| 23:11.13 | fozzmoo | Michael Reagan, Michael Medved, Sean Hannity, and even Rush Limbaugh to an extent, are completely agenda-driven in the sense that they just want to see the GOP back in the majority. |
| 23:11.15 | Nafai | harleypig: So I despise that side even more |
| 23:11.21 | unum | someone sent me a link where he says tarp spending startetd in january |
| 23:11.30 | Nafai | fozzmoo: Or they just want their pockets lined |
| 23:11.37 | unum | he says that it was inflationary spending and the it added to the debt |
| 23:11.47 | harleypig | Nafai: I've seen both sides. The only difference is the lies. The methods and end goals are the same. |
| 23:12.02 | fozzmoo | Beck, OTOH, has an agenda based on principles and values- a lot of it is based on the words of our founders. |
| 23:12.02 | unum | he know that tarp was passed in oct of last year. |
| 23:12.08 | harleypig | err ... The only difference is the lies that are told. |
| 23:12.10 | Nafai | fozzmoo: Riiiiiiiiight |
| 23:12.18 | unum | fozzmoo: no, none of it is |
| 23:12.20 | fozzmoo | Beck is out to expose both the republicans and the democrats. |
| 23:12.33 | sjansen | Whatever. |
| 23:12.35 | Nafai | The one thing I despise about Beck is that most that I know that listen to him basically believe him only because he is Mormon |
| 23:12.39 | unum | I doubt he's read anything actually written by a founder |
| 23:12.44 | fozzmoo | For example, he's trashed Orrin Hatch several times on his shows. |
| 23:12.52 | Nafai | fozzmoo: not hard, really |
| 23:12.56 | unum | obviously he's never read age of reason |
| 23:13.06 | unum | or anything by hamilton |
| 23:13.20 | fozzmoo | Heh heh. It's funny you mention that. He talked about Hamilton on yesterday's radio show. |
| 23:13.23 | fozzmoo | And Paine. |
| 23:13.37 | unum | I doubt he correctly quoted them |
| 23:13.45 | unum | he makes stuff up |
| 23:13.47 | fozzmoo | And let's not forget his book earlier this year includes Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" verbatim in the back. |
| 23:13.50 | sjansen | When I saw Beck on TV I thought "finally an intelligent conservative commentator" but the more more I saw the more I realized "what a moron, just another jerk entertainer trying to make a buck by pandering". |
| 23:14.05 | Nafai | sjansen: I can't stand watching him for a second |
| 23:14.06 | Jayce^ | sjansen: likely because you don't like what he says :) |
| 23:14.12 | Nafai | fozzmoo: What about his flip-flopping? |
| 23:14.16 | unum | just because he put it in the book doesn't mean he's read it |
| 23:14.21 | levi | My problem with Beck is that he's the sort of person who thinks Ayn Rand and Cleon Skousen are essential political works. |
| 23:14.31 | fozzmoo | Nafai: Flip-flopping? |
| 23:14.48 | fozzmoo | Everyone makes mistakes. I know Glenn has made a few, but he usually comes out and admits it. |
| 23:14.49 | unum | I can't watch people who make stuff up, even when I want to agree with them |
| 23:14.59 | Nafai | fozzmoo: Whenever he had his surgery a year or two ago and the hospital screwed up and he said that the US health care system was the worst. Now that Obama wants to reform it, the US has the best in the world. |
| 23:15.12 | sjansen | America's health care was horrible when he had to experience. Then it was the epitome of perfection when Democrats started doing something to fix it. |
| 23:15.13 | fozzmoo | Nafai: Heh heh. Yeah- there's a lot more to that than you realize. |
| 23:15.15 | harleypig | levi: Ayn Rand and Cleon Skousen in the same sentence ... I'm ... amused in a horribly wrong way. |
| 23:15.30 | Nafai | fozzmoo: oh.....so there is an excuse for the change in the attitude? |
| 23:15.34 | Nafai | I'd like to hear this |
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| 23:15.42 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: now now, two single statements, stand completely on their own, no context necessary :) |
| 23:16.03 | fozzmoo | And he's explained that. He has said, as many problems as we have in our healthcare system, ours is still the envy of the world. World leaders travel to the US for procedures for a reason. |
| 23:16.03 | levi | harleypig: How so? I mean, yeah, these two things do not go together at all, yet Beck pushes them both. |
| 23:16.18 | Nafai | Jayce^: Wait, how come Beck gets to do the same thing, but I can't? |
| 23:16.18 | fozzmoo | His major complaint about his time in the hospital was lack of compassion. |
| 23:16.49 | unum | Nafai: now if you compare Beck to other republicans like say, Romney, he doesn't look like a flip flopper at all :) |
| 23:16.50 | harleypig | levi: I've just never considered anything either has said at the same time. |
| 23:16.52 | fozzmoo | He told a story about a nurse in the ER who just acted like he didn't give a rat's ass there were people in serious amounts of pain there. |
| 23:16.55 | unum | you have to keep it in context :) |
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| 23:17.09 | Jayce^ | Nafai: look at the context, everytime |
| 23:17.19 | fungus | How do you ensure compassion in an industry driven to make money as it's first priority? |
| 23:17.20 | levi | harleypig: Well, they both boil down to 'Communism BAD!' but aside from that... |
| 23:17.33 | harleypig | levi: *blink* |
| 23:17.37 | fozzmoo | fungus: That's an interesting question. |
| 23:17.50 | harleypig | I don't know that I'd boil them down that far, though I suppose you're right ... |
| 23:17.51 | Jayce^ | fungus: It's like the great quote "Safety First"... and yet how many actually ever come close to meaning that? |
| 23:17.58 | Jayce^ | seriously, it's not even close |
| 23:18.15 | Nafai | I have had very compassionate medical care |
| 23:18.18 | Jayce^ | think Mike Rowe had a great blog post about that one a while back |
| 23:18.21 | harleypig | It's been more than two decades since I've read either one of them so I'm probbaly not really qualified to comment on either of them. |
| 23:18.23 | Nafai | ...and some not very compassionate care |
| 23:18.44 | Nafai | I don't think that would change depending on who is running the system |
| 23:18.48 | levi | harleypig: Ayn Rand's entire philosophy is the polar inverse of communism. |
| 23:18.50 | Nafai | it is individual people |
| 23:18.51 | fozzmoo | Beck's experience a couple years ago was pretty extraordinary, I think most people, even he, would agree. |
| 23:19.17 | levi | harleypig: And Skousen is best-known outside the church for his paranoid communist conspiracy books. |
| 23:19.23 | Nafai | I suppose I should get more context |
| 23:19.36 | harleypig | My recent medical experiences were fairly compassion filled, at least until it came time to start paying. |
| 23:19.47 | sjansen | Mike Rowe, now there's a guy I'd like to see in office. |
| 23:20.00 | unum | actually, I think I could support that |
| 23:20.02 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Yeah, there's a man who knows how to get his hands dirty. |
| 23:20.04 | levi | A whole different kind of dirty job! |
| 23:20.10 | Jayce^ | you could seriously enjoy that state of the union speech |
| 23:20.19 | harleypig | levi: I didn't know that about Skousen. But I'm not talking about other peoples reaction to them, just my own. |
| 23:20.21 | Nafai | But every time I try to watch Beck I get so sick |
| 23:20.30 | Jayce^ | levi: nah, it's just as crap-filled as his sewer eps |
| 23:20.32 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: That reminds me, I finally saw an episode of The Alaska Experiment. |
| 23:20.32 | Nafai | I can't believe anything he says |
| 23:20.44 | Jayce^ | first or second season |
| 23:20.54 | harleypig | Nafai: who? Mike Rowe? |
| 23:20.57 | harleypig | :> |
| 23:20.57 | fozzmoo | No idea. It was on the GREEN channel. Probably 1st. |
| 23:21.04 | Nafai | harleypig: Beck, I don't know who that is :) |
| 23:21.25 | harleypig | -_- you don't know who Mike Rowe is? |
| 23:21.38 | Nafai | I have yet to find a recent conservative thinker (is there suck a thing) that I can stand to listen to or read |
| 23:21.52 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: was it a group out hiking, or several groups, each at their own structure? |
| 23:22.05 | Nafai | harleypig: uh oh, what am I ignorant of? |
| 23:22.06 | fozzmoo | Two groups. One dad with two daughters... another group of some others. |
| 23:22.08 | harleypig | Nafai: feh ... extremism, in any form, leaves little room for thinking. |
| 23:22.11 | Jayce^ | Nafai: I feel the same way about most liberals |
| 23:22.27 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: first season, yeah |
| 23:22.30 | fozzmoo | Jayce: It was actually the episode where they both get picked up by the plane at the end of the 3 months. |
| 23:22.31 | harleypig | Nafai: :> He's the host of a show called Dirty Jobs. |
| 23:22.38 | Nafai | harleypig: Ah, okay, I know the guy :) |
| 23:22.48 | harleypig | and I was being a smart ass |
| 23:23.21 | fungus | Dictionary: harleypig - 1) smart ass |
| 23:23.31 | Jayce^ | 2) fat one too |
| 23:23.40 | Nafai | harleypig: exactly. I lived in Austin, TX, about the only liberal city in Texas, during the 2004 election. I worked with a lot of liberal people and I had a hard time believing their conspiracy theories about Bush and the war. I really couldn't see it and didn't want to, because it was so extreme. Now I believe some of what they said now. But extremism is a turn off. |
| 23:23.51 | unum | I guess my question is, should those of us born with medical issues, be force to pay for those issues ourselves? |
| 23:23.59 | Nafai | Good question unum |
| 23:24.09 | harleypig | hey! the pc term is obese! |
| 23:24.25 | unum | I'm very skinny, I have lupus |
| 23:24.30 | Nafai | unum: but you wouldn't want to be a freeloader |
| 23:24.32 | Jayce^ | unum: in short, yes.. but that's why we have /civil/ ways of helping... |
| 23:24.38 | Nafai | Jayce^: Where? |
| 23:24.39 | unum | not that that causes me to be skinny |
| 23:24.52 | Jayce^ | Nafai: most were shut down to do govt interference |
| 23:24.58 | unum | bull crapt |
| 23:25.00 | Nafai | Jayce^: Like what? |
| 23:25.04 | Nafai | I haven't heard of these. |
| 23:25.05 | Jayce^ | take shriners hospitals for one example... how many are left? |
| 23:25.11 | sontek | >< |
| 23:25.14 | Jayce^ | Nafai: never heard of the old LDS hospitals? |
| 23:25.16 | Nafai | Jayce^: Dude, when I was a baby, Shriner's wouldn't take me |
| 23:25.19 | Jayce^ | or catholic ones? |
| 23:25.23 | Nafai | Jayce^: I guess. |
| 23:25.25 | unum | none of them were shut down by government interference |
| 23:25.29 | Nafai | Jayce^: They put me on a waiting list |
| 23:25.31 | Jayce^ | unum: bull crap |
| 23:25.33 | Nafai | When I needed care *then* |
| 23:25.39 | Jayce^ | that's exactly why most don't exist anymore |
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| 23:25.50 | Jayce^ | regulation, insurance gaming, etc.. |
| 23:25.52 | unum | Jayce^: I would like to see one statement from shriners saying that it was the government |
| 23:26.10 | unum | the church spun theirs off as a non profit |
| 23:26.14 | unum | they still exist |
| 23:26.14 | Jayce^ | unum: take a little time, look at what happened to the entire industry |
| 23:26.19 | unum | and are in fact doing quite well |
| 23:26.28 | Jayce^ | and were largely taken by IHC, obama's favorite example |
| 23:26.28 | ^Migs^ | "Today, my school's volleyball team went to the state tournament. When one of our girls hit the ball out of bounds, the other team's student section began to chant "Keep it in!". My school's instantaneous response? To cheer "That's what she said!". I love my school. MLIA." |
| 23:26.32 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 23:26.35 | unum | in fact obama says he want the church hospitals to be a model for the whole country |
| 23:26.57 | unum | Jayce^: exactly |
| 23:26.58 | Nafai | IHC isn't too bad; I had a good experience at IMC |
| 23:26.59 | unum | they weren't shut down |
| 23:27.11 | Jayce^ | IHC is what has closed most other options down in UT |
| 23:27.12 | unum | the government is looking at them as a model |
| 23:27.24 | Nafai | Jayce^: I'm sure that's the case, stupid big business. :( |
| 23:27.26 | unum | ok, but that's the lds churches hospitals |
| 23:27.34 | Jayce^ | their hospital and hmo system has trashed everything else |
| 23:27.46 | unum | and I think you meant to say other hospitals never really opened here because of them |
| 23:27.49 | unum | not that they left |
| 23:28.18 | Jayce^ | unum: many closed, or had to sell.. they couldn't meet new mandates, or deal with the exclusions |
| 23:28.30 | Nafai | Jayce^: Anyway, what's civil about the current system for average people? |
| 23:28.31 | unum | name one in utah that closed |
| 23:28.37 | unum | companies sell all the time |
| 23:28.58 | Jayce^ | Nafai: the current isn't civil anymore, you have to play the game, which is mostly mandated by the govt, or their approved companies |
| 23:29.19 | Jayce^ | that's the point, we're just doing *more* of what got us the trouble we have now |
| 23:29.24 | unum | the government doesn't tell people they can't offer free health care |
| 23:29.30 | Nafai | Jayce^: I guess I don't know enough to see how the govt is doing the mandating? It's the insurance companies, isn't it? |
| 23:29.59 | Jayce^ | Nafai: tell me, how easy is it to get ala-carte insurance now, or how about that nice plan you might see in another state? |
| 23:30.00 | unum | and ihc didn't take the hosiptals from the church, ihc was formed specificly to manage them when the church decided they didn't want to any more |
| 23:30.11 | Jayce^ | is it the insurance company that won't let you |
| 23:30.22 | unum | I can not find an reference to the church forming ihc due to government meddeling |
| 23:30.33 | Jayce^ | unum: you're reading what we said wrong |
| 23:30.49 | Jayce^ | they weren't *formed* from that, they were molded over years by it |
| 23:30.55 | Jayce^ | and friend |
| 23:30.56 | Jayce^ | s |
| 23:31.33 | unum | anyways, I can't find anything that says the church created the non profit because of the government |
| 23:31.42 | Jayce^ | company based healthcare was simply an alternative to raises, and a loophole for taxes at first, now it's basically required |
| 23:31.42 | unum | I'd like to see that |
| 23:31.52 | unum | I agree with that |
| 23:31.56 | Nafai | Jayce^: That I can definitely agree with |
| 23:32.04 | Nafai | And absolutely abhor |
| 23:32.04 | Jayce^ | you can't get tax benefits from buying your own |
| 23:32.17 | Jayce^ | you can't get plans ala-carte anymore |
| 23:32.23 | unum | my company will do away with company based insurance when the non-discrimanation law is passed |
| 23:32.24 | Jayce^ | you can't get partial covereage |
| 23:32.26 | Nafai | so even people that can qualify for their own get dinged |
| 23:32.38 | Jayce^ | even paying #@$#@$ cash nowadays, they funnel it through their own hmo.. |
| 23:32.44 | Nafai | unum: non-descrimination law? |
| 23:32.51 | unum | the state regulates the isurance companies |
| 23:33.23 | unum | Nafai: that's part of the package being considered. all insurance companies have to cover you at the same rate reguardless of pre existing conditions |
| 23:33.27 | Nafai | Jayce^: So are you saying my hate of the insurance companies (even though they did "work" for me this year and my transplant) is mis-placed |
| 23:33.42 | Jayce^ | we used to carry a partial plan for my family, due to specific health issues, and because we *were* on federal health coverage... |
| 23:33.44 | Jayce^ | can't do that now |
| 23:33.45 | Nafai | unum: For company-offered group plans, right? |
| 23:33.59 | unum | Nafai: nope for all |
| 23:34.02 | Jayce^ | Nafai: most companies are still bad, but many were shaped that way |
| 23:34.31 | Jayce^ | what we have nowadays are those that 'play the game'... |
| 23:34.54 | Jayce^ | so I detest them as they are now, and what it is... but more govt in the mix just will make things worse... |
| 23:34.57 | Nafai | I don't know. The reason I dislike many of the pundits these days is because of the fear-mongering. But nothing has got me more afraid, for my life and health, than insurance. |
| 23:34.57 | harleypig | LEGALIZE RECREATIONAL DRUG USE! |
| 23:35.09 | Jayce^ | besides my views on the constitutionality of the whole thing |
| 23:35.39 | unum | atleast if taunabaum knows what he's talking about: |
| 23:35.42 | unum | http://electoral-vote.com/evp2009/Senate/Maps/Oct30-s.html |
| 23:35.43 | brac | [Electoral-vote.com: Election news] |
| 23:35.44 | Jayce^ | Nafai: I've had plenty of issues with it in my family too, and I've lived under both sides... I'd rather roll things back |
| 23:35.51 | harleypig | "It's ok for people your age to have sex. Just make sure you can stand looking at people your age naked!" |
| 23:35.59 | unum | he says that's how it is done in the netherlands(where he lives) |
| 23:36.43 | Nafai | Jayce^: Nothing has me more powerless now (adding my unemployment to the mix). So apologize to any hear I get cranky with about the issue. :) |
| 23:36.55 | unum | ya let's roll things back to when the doctors really couldn't do much in most cases |
| 23:36.59 | unum | I like that |
| 23:37.02 | Jayce^ | Nafai: np.. |
| 23:37.10 | Jayce^ | unum: funny, thought they could do a lot |
| 23:37.17 | unum | then it didn't cost anything. "here drink some whisky" |
| 23:37.18 | harleypig | Nafai: cranky is normal here. |
| 23:37.30 | harleypig | unum: thanks, I think I will ... |
| 23:37.55 | harleypig | Nafai: ya' daft bugger! |
| 23:38.01 | Nafai | heh |
| 23:38.12 | unum | they could do some surgery, and no need to pay for the guy that puts you to sleep |
| 23:38.16 | unum | ya let's go back to those days |
| 23:38.52 | Jayce^ | funny how you can't quite grasp reality :) |
| 23:39.07 | harleypig | unum: take a swig, pour some on the wound, take another swig, take another swig, pour some on the instruments. |
| 23:39.08 | unum | Jayce^: funny how I was thinking the same thing about you :) |
| 23:39.26 | Jayce^ | somehow I think that just maybe, we could still have doctors without the government owning it |
| 23:39.44 | Jayce^ | maybe those mri machines could still work |
| 23:39.50 | unum | that's the plan |
| 23:39.56 | unum | but I'm guesing you haven't read it |
| 23:40.11 | Nafai | Yay for talking to people that half-civil and half-coherent |
| 23:40.20 | unum | not only will the mri machines still work and be privetly owned, people who need them will be able to use them |
| 23:40.30 | Nafai | I've talked to too many crazies and got into too many arguments with people because of this issue |
| 23:40.58 | unum | the thing that upsets me in having to define the terms |
| 23:41.15 | unum | someone who I really thought should know better, didn't know what was meanth by the public option |
| 23:41.20 | harleypig | Nafai: someone here is being half-civil and/or half-coherent about something besides computers? Let the ops know so they can be banned!!! |
| 23:41.25 | unum | I don't really care about the public option, I don't think it matters |
| 23:41.54 | Nafai | harleypig: :) |
| 23:42.00 | unum | but everyone is so upset by it, come to find out, most people don't know what it is |
| 23:42.12 | harleypig | unum: what what is? |
| 23:42.52 | harleypig | I was busy giving Nafai a hard time and didn't notice what you were talking about |
| 23:43.10 | harleypig | the link you gave earlier? |
| 23:43.12 | Nafai | An example of what I was talking about. I shared a link on my blog to a LIVESTRONG petition that they were going to take to Congress about giving people with pre-existing conditions access to health care. I asked people to sign it. A crazy friend of mine started going off about Obama and losing freedoms and the environment. Ugh. I wasn't talking about those things. Shut up. I almost told her that. |
| 23:43.19 | Nafai | :) |
| 23:43.24 | unum | harleypig: the public option |
| 23:44.00 | harleypig | Nafai: but ... if you give the anti-christ a little bit, he'll parlay that into more and more oppression! |
| 23:44.17 | unum | of course too many people I talk to only know what Glenn Beck tells them |
| 23:44.35 | unum | so of course they don't really know what the law says |
| 23:45.08 | harleypig | arghhh!! my browser is so damn slow today ... it's all obama's fault! |
| 23:46.19 | harleypig | and gore ... he invented the damn thing, he should do something about the backlog ... |
| 23:46.21 | Nafai | unum: indeed. I'm sick of the same talking points and people not thinking for themselves. |
| 23:47.02 | Jayce^ | Nafai: remember, most people who think opposite you probably feel the same :) (that of course goes for any topic) |
| 23:47.15 | Nafai | Right, I know |
| 23:47.30 | Jayce^ | ugh, was supposed to leave 30 minutes ago |
| 23:47.33 | Nafai | But I seriously am trying to think things through and see all sides. I guess as long as I know it. :) |
| 23:48.26 | Jayce^ | ta ta folks... time to go free the wife from the kids |
| 23:48.27 | harleypig | unum: Is it possible to disagree with the pubic option and not be a simpleton? |
| 23:48.37 | harleypig | Jayce^: tata's? where? |
| 23:48.49 | Jayce^ | harleypig: the usual spot :-p |
| 23:48.58 | harleypig | :D |
| 23:49.09 | harleypig | don't you mean spots ... oh he's gon already |
| 23:49.09 | Nafai | Like once a cousin shared with me a video from the Family Research Council about abortion and the health bill. He did it in response to a site that researched claims by politicians, because he said the site was run by a person with liberal agenda. I merely pointed out that the FRC had an agenda of its own as well. I didn't say if I agreed with them or not. |
| 23:49.44 | Nafai | My cousin then accused me of being a bad member of my church for some unknown reason. |
| 23:49.44 | unum | harleypig: I disagree with the public option |
| 23:49.49 | Nafai | It was awful. :( |
| 23:49.52 | unum | but I actually know what it is |
| 23:50.26 | harleypig | unum: ah ... I misread/understood your pov |
| 23:50.26 | unum | I'm not a strong opponent to it |
| 23:50.39 | unum | if I was in congress I wouldn't vote against it because of the public option |
| 23:50.56 | harleypig | So, the question--reworded--remains effectively the same: Can a person agree with the pubic option and not be a simpleton? |
| 23:51.14 | unum | Nafai: I've taken to sending people to the link on the churches website that says they have no political position on abortion |
| 23:51.25 | unum | harleypig: yes :) |
| 23:51.38 | harleypig | heh Good to hear. |
| 23:51.49 | unum | but if they start telling me it's about government run hospitals, than they are a simpleton |
| 23:52.08 | Nafai | unum: Right, but the problem was he didn't read what I said. Saying someone has an agenda doesn't mean I disagree with them or agree with them. |
| 23:52.08 | harleypig | hmmm ... |
| 23:52.17 | unum | or if they start telling me how it's going to add to the debt, then they are a simpleton |
| 23:52.25 | unum | Nafai: very very true |
| 23:52.31 | unum | I've dealt with the same sort of thing |
| 23:52.33 | unum | it's very annoying |
| 23:52.44 | harleypig | unum: ok ... how about if they disagree with you? |
| 23:52.49 | Nafai | unum: It's frustrating. I was merely pointing out that his rational works the other way. |
| 23:53.29 | harleypig | Nafai: never wrestle with a pig. Unless you want to get covered in mud and shit. |
| 23:53.39 | Nafai | indeed |
| 23:53.44 | harleypig | Some people are into that though ... |
| 23:53.54 | Nafai | pigs named harley keep trying to wrestle with me too |
| 23:53.57 | unum | harleypig: if they disagree with because the real facts are secret and only glenn beck knows the truth through divine revelation |
| 23:54.05 | unum | then yes they are a simpleton |
| 23:54.27 | Nafai | I almost got in trouble today. :) |
| 23:54.42 | Nafai | I was getting my car fixed and they had Fox News on in the waiting room. |
| 23:55.07 | Nafai | They were talking about something Sarah Palin claimed in her new book that seemed to me to be an out-right lie. |
| 23:55.09 | harleypig | I don't listen to GB or any of those other extremists and it appears to me that the pubic option includes, but is not limited to, the government having a major say in how hospitals are run. |
| 23:55.17 | Nafai | Without thinking, I muttered, "Yeah, right" under my breath. |
| 23:55.30 | Nafai | I got stared at harshly by other customers |
| 23:55.35 | Nafai | (I was in Orem) |
| 23:55.37 | Nafai | Whoops. |
| 23:55.53 | harleypig | Nafai: You should have said "Palin does tricks for $5" |
| 23:55.58 | Nafai | Haha |
| 23:56.12 | harleypig | and stared harshly back. |
| 23:56.14 | synic | eggyknap: ping |
| 23:56.19 | Nafai | I only egg on people I don't know on the Internet |
| 23:56.24 | harleypig | Then pulled out a book of the norman's and started reading |
| 23:56.34 | Nafai | It doesn't matter if they are bigger than me there |
| 23:56.39 | harleypig | :D |
| 23:56.48 | harleypig | It doesn't matter irl either. |
| 23:56.52 | Nafai | True. |
| 23:57.05 | Nafai | I once brought down a 275-lb hockey player at a party at college |
| 23:57.25 | Nafai | Mind you, I was only drinking dew and he was on I don't know what number of beers... |
| 23:57.31 | harleypig | If you can successfully get someone to assault you, you've won. |
| 23:57.36 | harleypig | Even if they don't realize it. |
| 23:57.43 | Nafai | Yes. |
| 23:58.15 | harleypig | On the gripping claw though .... ther's something very satisfying about feeling the bone crunch under your hands ... |
| 23:58.27 | Nafai | :) |
| 23:58.48 | tensai | harleypig: the government already has a major say in hospitals with medicare |
| 23:59.17 | harleypig | tensai: true, but only in relation to patients covered by medicare |
| 23:59.49 | tensai | which is still a lot of people |