| 00:17.44 | *** join/#utah JoshH (n=josh@2607:fa18:100:8000:191:0:0:0) |
| 00:21.25 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@c-67-171-119-91.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:23.02 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2_ (n=brad@c-67-171-119-91.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:14.51 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 01:14.51 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 01:55.00 | *** join/#utah thepaul (n=paul@thepaul.xen.prgmr.com) |
| 01:56.19 | thepaul | Anyone ever heard of Moki Systems in St. George? (http://www.mokisystems.com/) |
| 02:06.25 | goozbach | thepaul: yup, got a friend who works there |
| 02:09.28 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_ (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 02:28.51 | *** join/#utah badonaway (n=q@166-70-80-198.ip.xmission.com) |
| 02:40.22 | *** join/#utah levipod (n=rooms@65-121-75-131.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 02:41.43 | levipod | Ugh, sitting at the airport with CNN on the screen. |
| 02:42.23 | levipod | Michael Moore and Ron Paul on Larry King. |
| 02:43.38 | levipod | And really weak wifi. |
| 02:50.57 | thepaul | michael moore and ron paul merit an "Ugh"? |
| 02:51.11 | thepaul | that's some good tv |
| 02:51.21 | thepaul | whether you agree with them or not |
| 03:02.19 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 03:02.19 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 03:09.14 | *** join/#utah scott___ (n=scott@75-145-58-209-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 03:10.05 | scott___ | anyone know how to access content on www.lds.org for plucker reader? I revived my m505. and need to download a few things |
| 03:13.43 | scott___ | hello? |
| 03:16.47 | *** join/#utah scott___ (n=scott@75-145-58-209-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 03:17.25 | scott___ | how can I access packages on www.lds.org? I run plucker on my palm |
| 03:19.50 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@c-98-202-253-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:27.45 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@75-169-124-7.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 03:28.43 | sjansen | weeps quietly for his beard |
| 03:29.30 | Nafai | I had to shave mine a few weeks ago |
| 03:29.40 | Nafai | Starting to interview for a new job |
| 03:29.51 | Nafai | Know some people may not approve here in Utah :( |
| 03:30.57 | scott___ | where are you interviewing? |
| 03:32.05 | Nafai | nowhere specific at the moment, have a few leads but nothing scheduled yet |
| 03:41.55 | *** join/#utah torriem (n=torriem@c-98-202-77-255.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:49.50 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@72-57-181-23.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 04:01.55 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 04:21.14 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@63.225.228.210) |
| 04:22.44 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://utos.org/irc | Log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | C-x C-c |
| 04:42.05 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@c-24-7-117-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 04:42.05 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 04:44.24 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 04:54.28 | *** join/#utah scott____ (n=scott@75-145-58-209-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 05:34.17 | *** part/#utah torriem (n=torriem@c-98-202-77-255.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:40.32 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 05:46.22 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=decripto@53.250.sfcn.org) |
| 06:57.01 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@c-24-7-117-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 06:57.01 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 08:40.02 | *** join/#utah JoshH (n=josh@2607:fa18:100:8000:191:0:0:0) |
| 12:36.51 | *** join/#utah tyce_ (n=tyce@69.169.175.23.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 13:02.39 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=user@kaptah.deevans.net) |
| 13:50.31 | *** join/#utah fugue88 (n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 13:54.36 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@70-0-88-145.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 14:08.28 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-d6a16ee9d410a7c8) |
| 14:08.28 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 14:27.06 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@199.sub-70-192-21.myvzw.com) |
| 15:03.29 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@199.sub-70-192-21.myvzw.com) |
| 15:07.52 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce^@office2.bluehost.com) |
| 15:07.52 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 15:51.29 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@c-24-7-117-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 15:51.29 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 15:52.04 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 15:59.21 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@173-126-33-50.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 16:01.32 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@c-67-186-242-235.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:02.29 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=decripto@137.65.133.6) |
| 16:05.35 | findlay | elg: did you get that book? |
| 16:12.14 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 16:13.45 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-62-135.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 16:15.00 | findlay | how do I make a variable defined by ./configure --variable=/path/ available to source files? |
| 16:15.13 | sjansen | levi: I'm trying to give emacs another chance. Any tips other than remapping capslock? |
| 16:18.41 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 16:24.10 | *** join/#utah zzzirk_away (n=zzzirk@173-10-29-145-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 16:27.34 | Sargun_Screen | Don't open it! |
| 16:27.51 | Sargun_Screen | there is a bomb! |
| 16:27.58 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@208.110.152.42) |
| 16:27.59 | Sargun_Screen | or something. |
| 16:28.53 | *** join/#utah Cyberkruz (n=Cyberkru@74-95-54-57-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 16:29.40 | thepaul | IT'S A TRAP!, you might even say |
| 16:30.22 | Sargun_Screen | agreed. |
| 16:30.37 | Sargun_Screen | So, please don't open the bridge, until at least until after I get to work. |
| 16:31.15 | Sargun_Screen | It really makes my job a pain in the ass. |
| 16:32.03 | Sargun_Screen | and I don't get into the office for 30 minutes. |
| 16:32.28 | thepaul | i will do my best |
| 16:32.32 | sjansen | bridge? |
| 16:32.54 | Sargun_Screen | sjansen: You didn't hear? |
| 16:33.08 | thepaul | yeah, i have no idea what he's talking about either |
| 16:33.12 | thepaul | just smile and nod |
| 16:33.37 | sjansen | scurries off to tell DHS that Sargun_Screen is threatening to bomb the Bay bridge |
| 16:33.58 | Sargun_Screen | hehe. |
| 16:34.04 | Sargun_Screen | works at a mapping company. |
| 16:34.19 | Sargun_Screen | and if they open up the bridge before I get to work, I have to open up from the train. |
| 16:34.30 | Sargun_Screen | opening up bridges, while moving at 50 mph is difficult |
| 16:37.59 | mulicheng | ** secret DHS agents begin tracking all #Utah communications from this point.. |
| 16:38.53 | sjansen | mulicheng: Nah, they started long ago. |
| 16:39.27 | mulicheng | My bro-in-law works for DHS in Murray or somewhere. Does network stuff for them. |
| 16:40.41 | mulicheng | They spend a lot of extra money. |
| 16:41.03 | sjansen | ~echelon fodder |
| 16:41.04 | ibot | i guess echelon fodder is Bush, Uranium, Dirty Bomb, Jihad, Allah Akbar, TNT, Rent a van, assassination , NSA, wiretaps, sleeper cell, suicide bomb, vest, Oklahoma City, Waco, revenge, anthrax, virgins, fuse, great celebration, July 4th, detcord, martyr, timer, backpack, subway. Ruby Ridge |
| 16:41.38 | jlp_work | "extra money"? what's that? |
| 16:44.57 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2_ (n=brad@254.sub-75-216-116.myvzw.com) |
| 16:45.44 | sjansen | Can you believe it's been more than a year? http://punditkitchen.com/2008/10/07/political-pictures-sarah-palin-helping-choose-obama-wink/ |
| 16:46.46 | *** join/#utah WoodsDog (n=woodsdog@nat/novell/x-6db5599e31f18a21) |
| 16:47.39 | thepaul | ~echelon fodder is also kill all infidels |
| 16:47.40 | ibot | okay, thepaul |
| 16:55.36 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-e84f5633ab55b9e0) |
| 16:55.36 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 17:04.06 | Migs | I started a new Christmas music project: http://christmas.justinreeve.com Basically everyone suggests songs, votes, and every day in December I'll write an arrangement of the top voted songs. |
| 17:04.18 | Migs | Feel free to add your own suggestions (you can suggest as many as you want) |
| 17:09.32 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 17:15.13 | Migs | crap, someone requested Christmas Shoes. |
| 17:15.15 | Migs | I HATE that song. |
| 17:18.34 | sjansen | Migs: There you go, one anti-Christmas Shoes vote. |
| 17:19.10 | RyanE | My wife also hates that song. I personally couldn't tell you what it's like, because I think she's switched the radio every time it's ever been on, before I can even ID it... :) |
| 17:19.10 | Migs | hahaha |
| 17:19.37 | RyanE | and one of the girls she carpools with regularly *loves* that song. Takes all types. |
| 17:20.01 | Migs | NICE...Welcome to the Jungle |
| 17:20.08 | Migs | I should play that entirely with sleigh bells |
| 17:20.26 | Migs | it's really the lyrics of Christmas Shoes I loathe. |
| 17:20.41 | Migs | since this will be instrumental only, maybe it would be okay |
| 17:21.25 | sjansen | Nothing says Christmas like death, poverty and saccharin. |
| 17:23.48 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 17:26.18 | Jayce^ | http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=671265086#/album.php?aid=156404&id=671265086 |
| 17:26.35 | Jayce^ | added some photos of this years halloween decorations :) |
| 17:26.35 | Jayce^ | \ |
| 17:27.00 | RyanE | I thought it was some sort of tribute to 'Christmas Shoes' that you'd hobbled together... :) |
| 17:29.48 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (n=carrus85@64.0.193.15) |
| 17:29.50 | sjansen | Jayce^: I refuse to create an account w/ Facebook to see your photos. |
| 17:30.01 | Jayce^ | sjansen: you dont' need to with that link |
| 17:30.13 | Jayce^ | or shouldn't... even redbeard2 could see them |
| 17:30.15 | sjansen | Jayce^: Bzzzt. Wrong. |
| 17:30.17 | Jayce^ | and he's the same way |
| 17:30.31 | sjansen | Facebook Login |
| 17:30.31 | sjansen | You must log in to see this page. |
| 17:30.41 | redbeard2 | sjansen: i also refuse to have a facebook account, and i could see them |
| 17:30.56 | sjansen | *shrug* I only know what I see. |
| 17:31.06 | redbeard2 | maybe you should try firefox? |
| 17:31.08 | sjansen | If elg has created a secret backdoor for you but not me, so be it. |
| 17:31.28 | jlp_work | firefox says: "You must log in to see this page." |
| 17:31.45 | jlp_work | guess I don't need to see it, then |
| 17:31.48 | redbeard2 | was kidding |
| 17:31.54 | Jayce^ | sjansen: try this one... http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=156404&id=671265086&l=8c3a95ec76 |
| 17:31.55 | redbeard2 | about the firefox thing |
| 17:31.55 | sjansen | Try Firefox? What do you think I'm using? IE? |
| 17:31.59 | sjansen | ~lart redbeard2 |
| 17:31.59 | ibot | whacks redbeard2 with the cluebat |
| 17:32.04 | Jayce^ | maybe there was a bounce int that link |
| 17:32.08 | redbeard2 | sjansen: you're not? |
| 17:32.14 | redbeard2 | ducks |
| 17:32.20 | jlp_work | second link works |
| 17:32.22 | RyanE | I could not see them... |
| 17:32.23 | sjansen | redbeard2: I'd threaten to shave you, but we now all know how scary that turns out. |
| 17:32.30 | RyanE | with the first link. Now trying 2nd. |
| 17:32.44 | RyanE | woo! photos! |
| 17:32.54 | Jayce^ | looks like something dumped a dumb account.php think in the first one |
| 17:33.21 | sjansen | Jayce^: Enjoy Halloween much? |
| 17:33.40 | redbeard2 | sjansen: too late. i shaved yesterday. |
| 17:33.46 | Jayce^ | our neighborhood goes all out, so I use it as a chance to freak out some folks |
| 17:34.20 | Jayce^ | especially the older kids that try playing tough |
| 17:34.22 | sjansen | redbeard2: I saw the photo and it burned my retinas. Now I see your ugly mug superimposed every waking minute, even when my eyes are closed. |
| 17:34.38 | redbeard2 | sjansen: now _that_ is an awesome hack |
| 17:41.58 | *** join/#utah Jayce^_ (n=Jayce^@office2.bluehost.com) |
| 17:41.58 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^_] by ChanServ |
| 17:46.01 | sjansen | ~poke elg |
| 17:46.02 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind elg, pokes elg repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 18:13.15 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@67.214.226.66) |
| 18:18.41 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:21.11 | *** join/#utah scott___1 (n=scott@75-145-58-209-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 18:25.08 | Sargun | ? |
| 18:32.10 | tristanbob | If I want to increase wireless coverage in my house without running wires, what do I need? a traditional AP needs a cable for backhaul, so perhaps I need a mesh AP? |
| 18:33.00 | Supaplex | sounds like, maybe a repeater |
| 18:33.09 | fozzmoo | tristanbob: Why are you opposed to running wires? |
| 18:33.24 | tristanbob | fozzmoo, (I'm asking this for someone else, who is opposed) |
| 18:33.48 | fozzmoo | Why are they opposed? :) |
| 18:33.51 | tristanbob | Supaplex, oh, I didn't think of that |
| 18:34.13 | tristanbob | fozzmoo, I guess work and cost |
| 18:34.16 | Sargun | tristanbob, Hm, what's your budget? what kind of house do you have? |
| 18:34.22 | fozzmoo | Or maybe a big fat enhanced antenna on the computer at the far end of the house. |
| 18:34.25 | Supaplex | ddwrt supports this on some routers |
| 18:34.55 | tristanbob | has anyone used openmesh gear before? http://www.open-mesh.com/store/ |
| 18:35.01 | Sargun | tristanbob, Yes, it's ghetto, avoid it. |
| 18:35.11 | Sargun | these guys are the shit: http://ubnt.com/ |
| 18:35.13 | Sargun | use them. |
| 18:35.20 | Sargun | their hardware is pretty nifty. |
| 18:35.21 | tristanbob | Sargun, you tried both? |
| 18:35.26 | Sargun | yes sir. |
| 18:35.44 | Sargun | Open mesh's hardware is better quality, but more difficult to work with. |
| 18:36.17 | fozzmoo | My gut says either may be overkill for the guy who just wants better coverage for his house. |
| 18:37.33 | fozzmoo | tristanbob: http://www.cantenna.com/ |
| 18:37.42 | tristanbob | cool stuff |
| 18:38.17 | tristanbob | wow - I remember the cantenna from 7 years ago |
| 18:38.44 | tvc123 | mmm pringles |
| 18:39.08 | JoshH | how do i get back into town after a weekend to zero new plug or sllug emails |
| 18:40.37 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Better whip up a flame war to compensate. |
| 18:40.58 | JoshH | i was hoping someone else would have done the job |
| 18:42.26 | goozbach | anyone here have experience with ratbox ircd? |
| 18:42.48 | fozzmoo | goozbach: No, but what do *you* know about it? |
| 18:43.04 | JoshH | just use hybrid |
| 18:43.05 | goozbach | fozzmoo: that it has packaged services for CentOS 5.4 |
| 18:43.21 | goozbach | JoshH: have hybrid experience? |
| 18:43.29 | goozbach | I want to get a server up and running |
| 18:43.31 | JoshH | yes |
| 18:43.34 | goozbach | secured via ssl |
| 18:43.38 | goozbach | with a server password |
| 18:43.41 | JoshH | setup several hybrids, but not for a while |
| 18:43.44 | goozbach | and a handful of ops |
| 18:43.49 | goozbach | opers that is |
| 18:43.54 | fozzmoo | ratbox just sounds meaner than hybrid. |
| 18:43.59 | thepaul | inspircd is the way to go these days |
| 18:43.59 | goozbach | and services |
| 18:44.12 | Sargun | back, I stepped out. |
| 18:44.22 | thepaul | oh, nevermind. services integration has more suck on inspircd. |
| 18:44.30 | JoshH | hybrid with hybserv is pretty simple and easy |
| 18:44.49 | goozbach | JoshH: I'll give it a shot |
| 18:45.56 | Sargun | tristanbob, I would recommend putting your backhaul over powerline, and then using the routerstation pro (?), putting three cards in, and using a wireless backhaul of 900 mhz on one of the cards |
| 18:46.27 | Sargun | run WDS/IAPP (?, I think that's it) on the other two cards. |
| 18:46.28 | tristanbob | oh, neat idea |
| 18:46.31 | tristanbob | powerline |
| 18:46.53 | Sargun | setup OSPFv3 over your backhauls |
| 18:47.20 | Sargun | and make all your clients run OSPFv3 |
| 18:47.28 | Sargun | you should have 3 second convergence. |
| 18:48.08 | Sargun | and disperse these uberaccesspoints throughout your house. Preferable 1 in every room |
| 18:48.29 | Sargun | create some basic signal hopping/power control code. |
| 18:49.58 | Sargun | I can only imagine that this would make an ubernetwork that would: |
| 18:50.04 | Sargun | A) Give you and your housemates cancer. |
| 18:50.13 | Sargun | (Children are especially susceptible) |
| 18:50.18 | Sargun | B) Make a kickass network |
| 18:50.26 | Sargun | C) Over complicate a simple problem |
| 18:50.32 | Sargun | D) Confuse clients/hackers |
| 18:51.06 | Sargun | E) Attract some unwanted attention from the FCC |
| 18:56.16 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@254.sub-70-192-251.myvzw.com) |
| 19:01.00 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:06.54 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2_ (n=brad@138.sub-70-193-215.myvzw.com) |
| 19:13.43 | *** join/#utah Cyberkruz (n=Cyberkru@74-95-54-57-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 19:15.25 | tristanbob | Sargun, very creative solution so a simple problem ;) |
| 19:15.37 | tristanbob | s/so/to |
| 19:15.39 | Supaplex | and keep the air throughout your home warmer |
| 19:16.34 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 19:16.37 | tristanbob | anyone use powerline networking? does it work well? |
| 19:16.40 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 19:16.45 | beelzebob | horay for the cs.utah.edu mirror |
| 19:17.42 | beelzebob | 5.2M karmic download rate |
| 19:18.51 | fozzmoo | xkcd.com is pretty cool today. |
| 19:19.31 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@160.sub-70-193-75.myvzw.com) |
| 19:21.16 | Jayce^ | I want a large version of the graphs |
| 19:21.57 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2__ (n=brad@107.sub-70-192-180.myvzw.com) |
| 19:22.30 | mrpull | Jayce^: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/movie_narrative_charts_large.png |
| 19:22.33 | fozzmoo | It's pretty big when you click on them. |
| 19:22.40 | fozzmoo | http://xkcd.com/657/large/ |
| 19:22.41 | Sargun | agreed. |
| 19:22.48 | Sargun | beelzebob, I have 100 mbit/sec from kernel.org |
| 19:23.00 | Jayce^ | ahh, reader didnt' click through as big |
| 19:23.15 | goozbach | get the vector source, and print out a poster sized image on a plotter... HMMM..... |
| 19:23.20 | goozbach | we now have a plotter.... |
| 19:23.26 | beelzebob | Sargun: nice |
| 19:23.42 | goozbach | I may have found my replacemnt for the "periodic table of the perl operators" |
| 19:24.33 | Sargun | loves HE.net as an upstream |
| 19:24.44 | Sargun | loves being a netop. |
| 19:24.58 | sjansen | loves pictures of lolcats |
| 19:25.01 | Sargun | or the closest thing an 18 year old can be to being a netop. |
| 19:25.03 | Sargun | loves sjansen |
| 19:25.05 | Sargun | ~love sjansen |
| 19:25.06 | ibot | If you love sjansen so much, why don't you marry it? (oooooh) |
| 19:25.22 | Sargun | because the mormon church funded prop 8 |
| 19:25.25 | Jayce^ | no, that would be 'eeeewwwww' |
| 19:25.30 | Jayce^ | same sound, but correct meaning |
| 19:25.37 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Your social life is close to non-existent, but your bandwidth rules. |
| 19:26.34 | sjansen | s/funded/encouraged its members to support/ |
| 19:27.24 | JoshH | i don't think gay people see much of a difference |
| 19:27.33 | fozzmoo | ...which doesn't mean the "mormon church" hates gays. |
| 19:27.55 | fozzmoo | I think everyone's problems on the gay marriage issue would be solved by the states getting out of the marriage business altogether. |
| 19:28.08 | JoshH | it just hates them smooching on the plaza |
| 19:28.12 | Migs | I never heard the official statement from the church that Mormons should support prop 8 |
| 19:28.21 | Migs | which leader said it, anyway? |
| 19:28.36 | fozzmoo | Marriage should be something handled by your _insert_religious_like_organization_here_. |
| 19:28.53 | Sargun | fozzmoo, not really.. I get laid often enough to be satisfied. |
| 19:28.55 | Migs | no, I disagree |
| 19:28.56 | JoshH | http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/top-officials-w.html |
| 19:29.06 | Sargun | Migs, that I get laid enough? |
| 19:29.07 | Migs | as long as the IRS gives tax breaks to married people, the state has a right to involve themselves |
| 19:29.15 | JoshH | that's just what they claimed |
| 19:29.29 | stderr | fozzmoo: I fully agree with you. I just wish more "conservatives" did. |
| 19:29.39 | fozzmoo | Migs: Point taken, but it's got to start somewhere. |
| 19:29.41 | Migs | people have the right to not choose to affiliate themselves with a religion, which means they can have secular marriages |
| 19:29.53 | JoshH | fozzmoo, that makes sense, but i think marriage should be a civil right, and churches should avoid getting into politics |
| 19:30.07 | fozzmoo | I actually first heard the idea on Glenn Beck's TV show. |
| 19:30.39 | fozzmoo | It kinda makes sense since so many people nowdays are practicing common law marriage anyway. |
| 19:31.06 | JoshH | i just don't know why religions are so afraid of homos marrying anyway. if god doesn't like it, why not just let him deal with it later after the gays that got married are dead? |
| 19:31.13 | Migs | so we're to take it that just because some General Authorities (is that what they mean by "top Mormon officials?") made some political contributions, all Mormons should support the same politics? |
| 19:31.43 | Jayce^ | JoshH: because, especially with federal involvement, it changes what we can teach and do legally |
| 19:31.47 | Migs | I'm asking for an ACTUAL statement. I didn't hear one. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I didn't hear it. |
| 19:32.08 | fozzmoo | The LDS gospel teaches that homosexual behavior is a sin (not that homosexual people are bad). |
| 19:32.08 | JoshH | Jayce^, how so? i've heard the argument that it would force churches to perform gay marriages, but i don't buy it |
| 19:33.05 | stderr | Migs: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=a1312e636369f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD |
| 19:33.05 | Jayce^ | JoshH: there are much longer descriptions, but if it's a hate crime to not allow it, and we dont' accept it, what's that do? |
| 19:33.05 | Migs | stderr: That was before prop 8 |
| 19:33.05 | sjansen | Uhm, religion to central to social behavior. "Do under others..." and all that. Politics is just the formalization of social interaction, so of course its appropriate for religion to inform the debate. |
| 19:33.05 | fozzmoo | Most gays I know don't care about marriage. I think it's being pushed by the lawyers... |
| 19:33.13 | fozzmoo | They see a big increase in legal fees for gay divorce. |
| 19:33.14 | stderr | sjansen: "unto" ? |
| 19:33.18 | JoshH | Jayce^: it's quite a leap of logic to believe that would be a hate crime |
| 19:33.18 | Migs | I know most Mormons based their anti-prop 8ness on that statement, and the earlier Proclamation on the Family |
| 19:33.23 | JoshH | churche's have always been able to hate whoever they want |
| 19:33.25 | fozzmoo | Do under others. :) |
| 19:33.25 | sjansen | stderr: heh |
| 19:33.26 | stderr | and I've managed to behave socially without religion my whole life. |
| 19:33.27 | fozzmoo | I like that one. |
| 19:33.28 | Migs | but was there ever a specific prop 8 statement? |
| 19:33.33 | Jayce^ | JoshH: is it really? and what just was recently signed? |
| 19:33.42 | sjansen | s/under/unto/ |
| 19:33.57 | JoshH | did the recent bill address church practices at all? |
| 19:34.07 | Jayce^ | and not just hate crimes, but other forms.. I have a CA marriage license, if the lds church stopped accepting some types, they can be forbidden from any |
| 19:34.26 | JoshH | i don't think many gays want a mormon temple marriage anyway, other than maybe a few down in utah county who can't let go of their beliefs |
| 19:34.31 | fozzmoo | goes to eat at Sensuous Sandwich. |
| 19:34.45 | Jayce^ | JoshH: it doesn't specifically address church practices, just behavior, it's up to lawyers and case law to play with it |
| 19:34.59 | Jayce^ | has a lunch meeting too |
| 19:35.03 | JoshH | are church's forced to perform interracial marriages today? |
| 19:35.17 | JoshH | also, i wonder why i keep typing the apostrophe |
| 19:35.18 | stderr | JoshH: noone is saying that the church has to marry gay people. It's private property. They can allow anyone to marry in their church, and can disallow anyone from marrying in their church. |
| 19:35.19 | fozzmoo | JoshH: You're right. It's all about hatred. |
| 19:35.28 | JoshH | fozzmoo: yes, exactly |
| 19:35.29 | stderr | It's about legal recognization. |
| 19:35.38 | JoshH | actually i wouldn't use the word hatred |
| 19:35.44 | sjansen | JoshH: You already did. |
| 19:35.48 | fozzmoo | moral relativism? |
| 19:35.52 | JoshH | but i do think it's about them thinking they have the right to control everyone else |
| 19:36.04 | JoshH | because they consider themselves morally superior |
| 19:36.08 | JoshH | and "right" |
| 19:36.10 | Jayce^ | I think it's about not wanting others to control what we have |
| 19:36.21 | stderr | Jayce^: Oh, please, now. It's not about that at all. |
| 19:36.23 | sjansen | JoshH: So? |
| 19:36.32 | JoshH | so, i don't think that's very nice |
| 19:36.35 | stderr | Noone has ever said the LDS church has to recognize a homosexual marriage. |
| 19:36.42 | Jayce^ | oh really? |
| 19:36.48 | Jayce^ | bull, it's been pushed already |
| 19:37.13 | Jayce^ | just like saying nobody says the scouts have to accept gay leaders |
| 19:37.25 | stderr | That's bullshit. If some wacko is saying that, that's one thing. Noone with any knowledge of the issue is trying to force churches to marry gay people. They're trying to get governments to recognize it. |
| 19:37.28 | Jayce^ | oh wait, that's the annual lawsuit they deal with |
| 19:37.33 | Jayce^ | ~language stderr |
| 19:37.33 | ibot | ACTION grabs stderr by the ear and washes stderr's mouth out with soap |
| 19:37.36 | JoshH | Jayce^: even if there are a few morons out there pushing for it, they will never get it, and it's not a good reason to deny that right to the 99.999 percent of gays out there who have zero interest in mormonism or any other religion |
| 19:37.39 | stderr | the scouts receive federal money. |
| 19:37.43 | Jayce^ | 'right' |
| 19:38.05 | Jayce^ | there is no 'right' there |
| 19:38.26 | Migs | I'm still not sure I see the issue. Mormons aren't the only Christian church in America that has come out and issued a statement on gay marriage. |
| 19:38.39 | Jayce^ | Migs: easy targets :) |
| 19:38.42 | stderr | One can only imagine what the Mormons would do if a bunch of protestants got together and tried to pass a bill that says Mormons' marriages can't be recognized due to LDS's history of polygamy. |
| 19:38.44 | Migs | The gays' problem is that Mormons happen to live in California, too, and that they have a vote in the political process. |
| 19:38.46 | Sargun | Migs, they're by far the biggest supporters of prop 8. |
| 19:38.56 | JoshH | Migs: there are a handful of churchs in america that do recognize gay marriages, so why shouldn't those be recognized by the government as well? |
| 19:39.02 | Jayce^ | stderr: oh wait, they were doing that |
| 19:39.05 | Migs | define "biggest supporter" |
| 19:39.14 | sjansen | It's this simple: If you think smoking is bad for society, regulate smoking. If you think reckless driving is bad for society, regulate driving. If you think homosexuality is bad for society, regulate homosexuality. Now we can disagree about the first part, but the you can't avoid the fact that the second part naturally follows. |
| 19:39.24 | Migs | cuz frankly, I didn't care too much when the whole thing was going on. I'm not in California |
| 19:39.34 | stderr | smoking is a choice. |
| 19:39.36 | JoshH | it's not about california |
| 19:39.37 | stderr | reckless driving is a choice. |
| 19:39.39 | JoshH | they don't want gays marryign anywhere |
| 19:39.40 | stderr | Homosexuality is not. |
| 19:39.48 | JoshH | and a lot of people think if california allows it, the rest of america will follow eventually |
| 19:39.55 | JoshH | which is true, eventually it will be allowed |
| 19:40.00 | Jayce^ | no, no choice there at all.... |
| 19:40.02 | Jayce^ | yeesh |
| 19:40.06 | JoshH | it's just a matter of how much money and goodwill the church wants to squander in the meantime |
| 19:40.44 | Sargun | http://mormonsfor8.com/ |
| 19:40.49 | Sargun | There are about 770,000 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in California, according to the most recent statistics published in its 2007-2008 Almanac. These LDS Church members account for about 2% of California?s population. In a letter dated June 29, 2008, Mormon leaders in Salt Lake City called for church members to work hard to pass Proposition 8 in California. Proposition 8 is a proposed Constitutional Amendment that would |
| 19:40.49 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:41.11 | Migs | JoshH: Because churches still need to abide by the laws of the land. |
| 19:41.18 | stderr | If you believe homosexuality is a choice, you may as well just go camp out at the Creationist Museum and start railing about the faked moon landings. That's how much of an idiot you are. Seriously. |
| 19:41.26 | Migs | okay, June 29, 2008? |
| 19:41.35 | Sargun | Migs, prop 8 happened a long time ago... |
| 19:41.52 | Migs | k, that's all I wanted to know, what I could loo up |
| 19:41.53 | Migs | *look up |
| 19:42.12 | Migs | Awesome. |
| 19:42.27 | maquis | anyone here have google wave invites? |
| 19:42.32 | Migs | yeah, you want one? |
| 19:42.37 | Sargun | http://messengerandadvocate.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fp-letter.pdf |
| 19:42.41 | stderr | now, I personally believe that homosexuality is detrimental in a biological sense, at least in the short term. It doesn't make sense to me, but I certainly don't believe it's a choice. I know too many gay people. |
| 19:42.43 | Sargun | http://www.preservingmarriage.org/ |
| 19:42.45 | stderr | maquis: yea |
| 19:42.49 | Sargun | http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/280669/17/ |
| 19:43.02 | stderr | I think have 10 invites left or so |
| 19:43.06 | stderr | I* |
| 19:43.07 | Sargun | http://www.washblade.com/2008/9-19/news/national/13307.cfm |
| 19:43.16 | Sargun | anyways.. yah... |
| 19:43.18 | tristanbob | I just think it is funny how you all got into that conversation |
| 19:43.19 | maquis | stderr: any chance you could send one to my hubby (i can give you the address in PM)... |
| 19:43.21 | sjansen | stderr: Alcoholism isn't a choice, it's genetic. Obesity isn't a choice, it's genetic. Homosexuality isn't a choice, it's genetic. Pedophilia isn't a choice. Slaughtering native americans wasn't a choice. It was manifest destiny. It's not my fault! IT'S NEVER ANYONE'S FAULT! We're all slaves to circumstance. |
| 19:43.28 | JoshH | stderr: there could be other biological explanations for it though, population control being one, but i don't care enough to research that sort of thing |
| 19:43.35 | Sargun | stderr, Who cares? if the human race dies out, so be it. |
| 19:43.36 | Migs | I was just curious how the Church as an institution actually did involve itself. I wasn't sure. |
| 19:43.39 | maquis | i haven't gotten any invites, but i want him to be able to join as well |
| 19:44.07 | JoshH | sjansen: so we should outlaw alcohol and fatty food? |
| 19:44.18 | Sargun | stderr, there are about 3b men, and 3b women on the face of the planet. Some will create children. |
| 19:44.45 | sjansen | Perhaps. Although I don't expect outlawing alcohol to work any better than it did last time. |
| 19:45.07 | stderr | maquis: sure, pm me the addy. |
| 19:45.15 | maquis | stderr: see pm :) |
| 19:45.17 | JoshH | and you can't outlaw gays either, and denying them marriage isn't making america a happier place |
| 19:45.19 | Sargun | Why ban cannabis? |
| 19:45.28 | Sargun | Why ban gay people happiness? |
| 19:46.01 | Sargun | I'm sure my moral compass doesn't line up with yours, but even I can agree that my moral compass isn't "correct" |
| 19:46.08 | JoshH | actually when NYC banned trans fats in restaurants, conservatives threw a hissy fit |
| 19:46.13 | Sargun | whose is? |
| 19:46.13 | JoshH | talking about freedom, as usual |
| 19:46.25 | JoshH | but who cares about the liberty of gay people |
| 19:46.26 | sjansen | Sargun: Not paying attention, huh? If X harms society, regulate X. Regulate does not always mean ban. |
| 19:46.36 | Sargun | sjansen, ok, effectively ban. |
| 19:46.58 | Sargun | sjansen, How do gay people getting married directly harm society? |
| 19:46.59 | sjansen | No, a ban would be imprisonment or execution. |
| 19:46.59 | stderr | how has homosexuality harmed society? |
| 19:47.22 | JoshH | alan turing should have been turned straight with the genital shock therapy |
| 19:47.29 | stderr | comparing homosexuality to the slaughtering of Native Americans and pedophilia. Jumping Jesus. |
| 19:47.31 | Sargun | JoshH, seriously? |
| 19:47.37 | JoshH | no, idiot |
| 19:47.57 | Sargun | Sarcasm isn't transmitted over the internet. :-P |
| 19:48.06 | stderr | you really, really do not want to meet my gay veteran friend. There would be many a punch thrown. |
| 19:48.11 | JoshH | well i think it's clear by now that i support gay rights :) |
| 19:48.15 | sjansen | stderr: Well, I wanted to use a little hyperbole, but I couldn't very well reference the holocaust or I'd have invoked Godwin's law. |
| 19:48.28 | Sargun | sjansen, I believe you just did. |
| 19:48.30 | JoshH | i think godwin's are fine if done properly |
| 19:48.38 | JoshH | it just depends |
| 19:48.42 | Sargun | sjansen, Anyways, explain, how does homosexuality hurt society? |
| 19:48.54 | Sargun | We've "regulated" gay marriage -- right? |
| 19:49.10 | JoshH | homosexuality is what it is, it's always been a part of society. the question is how how would anyone straight be hurt if homos could get married |
| 19:49.21 | JoshH | and of course the answer is not at all |
| 19:49.25 | stderr | or how homosexuality has "hurt" society in any shape or form. |
| 19:49.28 | sjansen | Sargun: You're missing the point, aren't you. Not homosexual marriage. Homosexual behavior. |
| 19:49.42 | Sargun | Ok, how has homosexual behaviour hurt society? |
| 19:49.43 | stderr | Just from my experience, I've been tremendously helped by gay guys. Their bars always have the best looking women. |
| 19:49.55 | JoshH | there are homos doing eachother in the butt right now within a 5 block radius of me somewhere. is it hurting me or society at all? nope |
| 19:49.58 | Sargun | stderr, not only that, they're usually very nice... |
| 19:50.02 | stderr | Lesbians, meh. They're fun to argue with. |
| 19:50.15 | Sargun | stderr, some lesbians are nice. |
| 19:50.36 | Sargun | you can't generalize. |
| 19:50.46 | stderr | Sargun: that was sorta the joke... |
| 19:50.51 | Sargun | ah |
| 19:51.17 | stderr | I'm being flippant, obviously. SURPRISE: gay people come in all shapes, forms, and attitudes. |
| 19:51.26 | Sargun | anyways, sjansen how do gay people harm society? |
| 19:51.33 | stderr | *whisper* they're just like us, but with better fashion sense *whisper* |
| 19:51.35 | Sargun | by creating targets for hate crimes? |
| 19:51.50 | JoshH | the same way black people harm society when they marry white women or get the priesthood, duh |
| 19:51.54 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@217.sub-75-216-164.myvzw.com) |
| 19:51.59 | JoshH | or use our drinking fountains |
| 19:51.59 | Sargun | stderr, and some have better |
| 19:52.04 | Sargun | sex lives |
| 19:52.07 | sjansen | Sargun: I'm trying to find a comparison you're likely to accept. Fact of the matter is, your value system is likely to cause you to reject any example. |
| 19:52.15 | Sargun | sjansen, Try me. |
| 19:52.38 | stderr | sjansen: ok, well, that's fair enough. But what experience have you had with homosexuals that has shaped your value system that defines them as "harmful" to society? |
| 19:53.03 | JoshH | my value system leads me to believe that religions harm society, but i'm not out there tryign to get religion banned |
| 19:53.12 | sjansen | Treason. Why do we punish treason? We're all one humanity. What harm is there in the citizen of one nation helping another nation? Isn't treason a barbaric remnant of a less enlightened age? |
| 19:53.18 | stderr | since the LDS value system has been fairly fluid, do you believe that it could perhaps evolve to accept homosexuality? |
| 19:53.19 | JoshH | in fact i support religious freedom quite vigorously |
| 19:53.29 | Sargun | JoshH, religion can harm society, but practised well it works well. |
| 19:53.35 | Migs | stderr: Through revelation, yes. |
| 19:53.53 | Migs | that's how polygamy was banned, that's how the blacks were given the priesthood, the same could happen with homosexual marriage |
| 19:53.57 | Sargun | like weed, used correctly, it's fine, but incorrectly, it can wreck lives... |
| 19:54.08 | stderr | ok, well, that's a good starting point. |
| 19:54.10 | JoshH | Migs: do you think it's only a matter of time before a new revelation comes? or does god only change on some things? |
| 19:54.18 | Migs | I wouldn't presume to know |
| 19:54.32 | JoshH | maybe he started liking black people eventually, but gays are just way too icky |
| 19:54.37 | Migs | God is the one in control, not the church (from the LDS perspective) |
| 19:54.55 | JoshH | of course, everything is up to him, you're just doing his will |
| 19:55.04 | Migs | that's the general idea, yes |
| 19:55.46 | stderr | the fact that an omnipotent God actually changes his value system in a human based timeline seems a bit... illogical, no? |
| 19:55.55 | Migs | why? |
| 19:56.02 | Migs | what does omnipotence have to do with that? |
| 19:56.12 | stderr | Don't you believe he's infallible? |
| 19:56.15 | JoshH | why wouldn't someone omnipotent just get it right from the start? |
| 19:56.23 | stderr | Why would someone infallible have to change anything? |
| 19:56.24 | Migs | it makes sense if you think that God wants what's best for humans, and that may depend on cultural aspects. |
| 19:56.36 | Migs | since humans change constantly, what's "best" for us may also change |
| 19:56.46 | Migs | like polygamy one century, no polygamy the next |
| 19:56.46 | sjansen | God only has to give us constant laws if we stay constant. |
| 19:57.06 | JoshH | so why should we try to stay constant? |
| 19:57.09 | sjansen | So long as we're changing as individuals and as a society, the rules will change too. |
| 19:57.16 | Migs | if the rules NEED to be changed, yes |
| 19:57.28 | sinuhe | sjansen: Out of curiousity, please define "homosexual behaviour" in a way that makes it distinct from hetrosexual behaviour (if there is such a thing). |
| 19:57.33 | sinuhe | s/ous/os/ |
| 19:57.37 | JoshH | if we allow gays to marry, god will probably say oh gee, humans just change, time to send the telepathic message to monson |
| 19:57.37 | Migs | and I think you can look at the biblical record to see what might change. Gay marriage probably won't, tbh. |
| 19:57.48 | JoshH | so why hold back? |
| 19:57.49 | sjansen | Otherwise parents would either be forbiding teenages from crossing the road, or allowing toddlers to play in traffic. |
| 19:57.54 | Migs | Polygamy is both approved and condemned in the Bible in different places, though, so we can assume that's different |
| 19:58.19 | sjansen | sinuhe: If you can't tell the difference, I'm sure as not going to explain. ;-) |
| 19:58.43 | stderr | yet polygamy is now considered to be a sin, correct? |
| 19:58.45 | Migs | JoshH: I don't know. Ask God. |
| 19:58.55 | stderr | I've tried asking God a lot of things. |
| 19:58.58 | Migs | in some cultures, no |
| 19:59.08 | sinuhe | sjansen: Aside from the dodge, I'm trying to make a point. |
| 19:59.27 | Migs | in fact, LDS converts in other polygamous countries who have multiple wives are usually allowed to retain their polygamous marriages |
| 19:59.34 | sinuhe | The only distinction I can think of is not what homosexuals can do, but what they can't. |
| 19:59.39 | sjansen | Migs: [Citation Needed] |
| 20:00.04 | Migs | dangit, now I gotta look it up, one sec |
| 20:00.24 | JoshH | Migs: i just asked him, but he hasn't replied, how long should i wait? |
| 20:00.49 | Migs | maybe you're not asking hard enough :) |
| 20:00.54 | stderr | pft |
| 20:01.11 | sjansen | stderr: Polygamy is not considered a sin. The proclamation said "we're law obiding" not "Brigham Young was a lecher". Disobeying the law is considered a sin. There's a difference. |
| 20:01.12 | sinuhe | In my mind, the problem is one of behaving with a member of the opposite sex in a committed relationship. Other than that, homosexual behaviour is non-sense as a term. It is heterosexual marriage that is promoted, not homosexual behaviour that is rejected. |
| 20:01.24 | JoshH | wait, i just got a revelation from him, he says gays are fine by me |
| 20:01.27 | stderr | I've asked God stuff in situations that you probably can't even imagine, and he's never answered. |
| 20:01.30 | JoshH | sweet |
| 20:01.37 | Migs | cool |
| 20:01.45 | Migs | unfortunately, you're not the prophet of the Church |
| 20:02.10 | sjansen | At the point that someone says "I asked God", I'm not going to debate. All I can do is say what I've experienced, I can't question what you've experienced. |
| 20:02.28 | Migs | God certainly gives revelations to many people all over the world, regardless of their religion, but if it concerns His church on earth, Mormons believe He gives it to His prophet(s) |
| 20:02.35 | Migs | exactly |
| 20:02.37 | stderr | what have you experienced? I'm actually intrigued, I have never been touched divinely. |
| 20:03.07 | JoshH | stderr: most people i know that have told me about it think that when they feel a "calm, peaceful feeling", it's their prayer being answered |
| 20:03.18 | JoshH | but it sounds like a placebo effect of sorts to me |
| 20:03.42 | Migs | I tend to get an itchy nose along with that |
| 20:03.44 | stderr | I'm certainly open to the possibility of the existence of a higher power. |
| 20:03.52 | Migs | no joke |
| 20:03.56 | stderr | I just have never experienced anything that would inform me |
| 20:04.16 | Migs | it's hard to explain to those who haven't experienced it, JoshH, though I'm sure you've heard that, too |
| 20:04.35 | JoshH | i've heard about the burning in the bosom |
| 20:04.46 | Migs | I don't usually get that |
| 20:04.55 | JoshH | but i think that's just psychological as well |
| 20:04.59 | Migs | for me, my nose just usually gets really, really itchy |
| 20:05.12 | JoshH | anyway, i'm not really interested in debating whether or not prayer is real or whatever |
| 20:05.19 | Migs | there is warmth and stuff, though, all over my body |
| 20:05.26 | JoshH | i just don't think any of your religious beliefs are a justification to deny liberty to gays |
| 20:05.45 | tristanbob | Sargun, building on your powerline backhaul idea: http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/PowerlineWirelessAccessPoints/WGXB102.aspx |
| 20:06.00 | unum | JoshH: neither did Jospeh Smith :) |
| 20:06.18 | sjansen | For me it's a "preponderance evidence". A feeling in one situation, a 'chance' event in another, but mostly the contrast between how I feel when I behave one way and how I feel when I behave another. |
| 20:06.20 | Migs | Everyone in America has their own beliefs, whether it comes from religion or personal moral values, etc. |
| 20:06.38 | JoshH | joseph was pretty big on letting people do whatever they wanted, right? |
| 20:07.04 | stderr | sjansen: Huh. |
| 20:07.06 | Migs | And in this country, Americans decide the laws by majority votes. If a majority happens to believe one way, regardless of where that belief comes from, the laws will reflect that. |
| 20:07.13 | unum | in the d&c he wrote quite clearly that the government should not push religious views |
| 20:07.29 | stderr | by the behavior feeling you're talking about, are you just addressing your conscience, you mean, or something else? |
| 20:07.37 | JoshH | i wonder why the prophets these days don't teach the same thing |
| 20:07.38 | sinuhe | sjansen: What is a preponderance of evidence? Though only thing I can tell you've said is express frustration that homosexuality is blown off as genetic, and therefore we should just allow it de facto. That's a fair point, but it still begs the question of what part is bad and what is good, hence my question about define homosexual behaviour. |
| 20:07.39 | unum | Migs: there are restriction on what type of laws we will allow |
| 20:07.46 | unum | and it's very hard to overcome those restrictions |
| 20:07.54 | sinuhe | s/Though/The/ |
| 20:08.11 | unum | JoshH: I have to admit, I wonder that too...... |
| 20:08.32 | JoshH | are any of the mormon spinoff sects in favor of gay marriage for that reason? |
| 20:08.43 | JoshH | not that i expect you guys to keep track of what they think any more than i do |
| 20:08.50 | unum | there's a fairly liberal mormon spin off |
| 20:09.03 | sjansen | D&C *mumble* refers to faith as a spiritual gift that some have and others don't. Some people have unquestioning faith, but not me. It's easy to step back and say that could all be a little random biochemistry. So far, though, I've had enough experiences that make me think otherwise that I've stayed more or less commited to my course. |
| 20:09.04 | unum | can't remember what it's called, one of my coworker out eugene's mom joined for a while |
| 20:10.02 | JoshH | sjansen: i've noticed you're a bit more open minded and "liberal" than mainstream utah mormons on quite a few issues, where exactly do you stand on gay marriage anyway? i can't even tell if you're just playing devil's advocate or not |
| 20:10.17 | stderr | he seems pretty opposed. |
| 20:10.26 | stderr | Anyone who thinks homosexuality is a choice... |
| 20:11.44 | unum | stderr: as I understand the scientific belief, it is that it's a scale |
| 20:11.51 | stderr | anyway, if I was going to join a religion, I'd probably go Baha'i. It seems the most reflective of my personal morals. |
| 20:11.52 | unum | so some people find themselves in the middle |
| 20:11.55 | sjansen | My position on gay marriage is the same as my position on the atonement: I don't understand it, but I'm willing to accept what the church says. |
| 20:12.26 | sinuhe | sjansen: I think you and I are on the same page there. |
| 20:12.28 | JoshH | i'd only join a free love religion |
| 20:12.48 | JoshH | jk, i wouldn't |
| 20:13.25 | fozzmoo | You guys are still blabbing about this while I had a nice 8-inch sensuous sandwich? Sheeesh. |
| 20:13.48 | fozzmoo | unum is referring to the Kinsey Scale. |
| 20:13.57 | mulicheng | Yeah, the debate is polarized... |
| 20:14.11 | sinuhe | sjansen: Assuming of course we understand "the church" in our own contexts. |
| 20:14.12 | sjansen | At least I'm not a fascist like fozzmoo. ;-) |
| 20:14.34 | JoshH | i thought he was a neo nazi |
| 20:14.45 | fozzmoo | shaves his head |
| 20:15.08 | stderr | say what you want about the tenets of national socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos. |
| 20:15.53 | mulicheng | The problem with socialism is pretty soon you run out of other people's money. |
| 20:16.09 | mulicheng | Heard that somewhere... I'm not the original. |
| 20:16.19 | stderr | (I was quoting The Big Lebowski) |
| 20:16.25 | JoshH | better than running out of your own :P |
| 20:17.01 | JoshH | actually i really don't like the way terms like socialism are used these days |
| 20:17.17 | mulicheng | I guess it could be restated like this: "The problem with socialism is pretty soon the government runs out of the peoples (my) money) |
| 20:17.19 | JoshH | since there's not a "pure system" of any kind in the world anyway |
| 20:17.53 | unum | mulicheng: have you ever read Utopia? |
| 20:18.37 | unum | JoshH: good point, other than the "these days" part, I don't know that the term was ever used correctly |
| 20:18.42 | mulicheng | Probably studied it in history. |
| 20:18.48 | unum | you should read it |
| 20:18.49 | mulicheng | not read it myself though. |
| 20:18.57 | unum | everyone should |
| 20:19.20 | unum | it's about a democratic socialist society |
| 20:19.33 | JoshH | i think a hybrid capitalist/socialist system, with an emphasis on capitalism and very special attention to liberty is what's best |
| 20:20.05 | JoshH | by socialism, i mean things like zoos and freeways |
| 20:20.08 | JoshH | and certain aspects of healthcare |
| 20:20.09 | sjansen | Everyone should read Ayn Rand, then go out and tear up the nearest stretch of evil government pavement. |
| 20:20.23 | unum | sjansen: nice |
| 20:20.47 | unum | I'm all for public schools as well |
| 20:20.48 | sinuhe | Ayn Rand: the most rational human being (or so she said, in tears, throwing a tantrum) |
| 20:20.53 | JoshH | it's funny how internet libertarians have made us have to explain that we don't support privatization of all roads, just in case anyone is wondering |
| 20:20.54 | fozzmoo | I was just listening to a talk given by Elder D. Todd Christofferson, an apostle in the LDS Church on my way in today... |
| 20:20.58 | unum | though I'd vote against a tax credit for having a child |
| 20:21.17 | JoshH | unum: wait till you get those nice fat refunds and you'll sing a different tune ;) |
| 20:21.43 | unum | JoshH: it's just like how a socialist have to explain we don't support a police state |
| 20:21.49 | JoshH | i just wish that you had to pay a head tax for schooling, so liquor taxes didn't need to be so absurd in utah |
| 20:22.10 | unum | wouldn't the head tax counter the refund? |
| 20:22.11 | stderr | it costs me 13 dollars to get a six pack of my gf's favorite drink |
| 20:22.13 | JoshH | or even better, just allow some casinos |
| 20:22.22 | sjansen | So long as our budget is based on the next generation paying for the present, tax credits for children make _a lot_ of sense. |
| 20:22.42 | JoshH | stderr: alcopops/ |
| 20:22.45 | JoshH | ? |
| 20:22.53 | unum | ouch |
| 20:22.56 | stderr | yea |
| 20:23.01 | fozzmoo | In most of the world, we have been experiencing an extended and devastating economic recession. It was brought on by multiple causes, but one of the major causes was widespread dishonest and unethical conduct, particularly in the U.S. housing and financial markets. Reactions have focused on enacting more and stronger regulation. Perhaps that may dissuade some from unprincipled conduct, but others will simply get more creative in their circumvention.3 There coul |
| 20:23.06 | JoshH | my first tax refund after my daughter was born had me pretty pleased |
| 20:23.48 | tensai | why is my wireless card associating to itself??? |
| 20:23.49 | mulicheng | fozzmoo: that was a great talk and he was dead on. |
| 20:23.50 | unum | I'm for a "flat graduated" income tax, and no other taxes |
| 20:24.03 | tensai | I upgraded to karmic and my wifi stopped working |
| 20:24.18 | JoshH | stderr: blame mark shurtleff for that, it's about 99 percent his fault |
| 20:24.19 | unum | I actually I take that back, usuage taxes and even some sin taxes don't bother me |
| 20:24.20 | fozzmoo | I consider myself a disciple of Rand and I don't want to dig up the road or privatize the airport. |
| 20:24.37 | sjansen | The the same reason, requiring everyone to pay for education, not just parents, makes sense because we want tomorrows tax payers to make as much money as possible so that we can spend their future income today. |
| 20:25.22 | JoshH | stderr: of course, before that, they were in the grocery store but only 3.2 |
| 20:25.22 | unum | sjansen: I look at it this way, I can pay for their adulthood in prison or their childhood in school |
| 20:25.25 | JoshH | so pick your poison |
| 20:25.32 | JoshH | cheap and watery, or expensive and normal |
| 20:26.01 | stderr | the difference between non-state and Utah drinks alcoholic content is negligible. |
| 20:26.08 | JoshH | depends |
| 20:26.08 | tensai | hmm. apparently I can bring it up manually, but not through ifupdown or with networkmanager |
| 20:26.21 | stderr | although they do taste crappier, one would give you that. |
| 20:26.21 | JoshH | the main problem with the 3.2 limit is that it means our selection in the liquor store is terrible |
| 20:26.34 | JoshH | if you enjoy craft beer, this state really sucks |
| 20:26.42 | sjansen | fozzmoo: A disciple, huh? I'd rather be a disciple of someone who saved humanity, than a disciple of someone who destroyed a marriage for giggles. :-P |
| 20:26.43 | JoshH | and what stuff we do have, is expensive |
| 20:27.27 | JoshH | also, the major brands in the grocery store actually make their stuff at far less than 3.2, just to be safe, since unlike the other handful of 3.2 states, utah actually bothers to test occasional samples in a state lab |
| 20:28.56 | JoshH | it also means that all of our local grocery store beer, while not terrible, is all exactly the same percentage (right at the limit), regardless of the style, and some of them are downright horrid as a result |
| 20:29.14 | JoshH | for example, avoid uinta's trader IPA |
| 20:29.28 | stderr | oh, p.s., my halloween costume: http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs008.snc3/11536_1167490345499_1175145775_30420998_6981575_n.jpg |
| 20:30.05 | JoshH | i really don't understand how any of the so called free market capitalists here support the liquor store socialism |
| 20:30.30 | sjansen | is pretty sure that according the Old Testament law he's supposed to stone stderr now |
| 20:30.52 | stderr | >_> |
| 20:30.55 | stderr | <_< |
| 20:30.59 | stderr | I have another picture for you then |
| 20:31.19 | stderr | http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs061.snc3/12861_171374581050_504446050_3359006_473307_n.jpg |
| 20:32.00 | JoshH | pretty sure according to that, you should start your own religion and gain a mass of followers, eventually overthrowing the government |
| 20:32.32 | stderr | the best part is that I'm wearing my awesome "Obamunism" shirt in this picture |
| 20:32.40 | stderr | with a hammer and a sickle for his logo |
| 20:32.43 | stderr | lawlz |
| 20:32.45 | TehLaser | JoshH: it's because capitalism is too good for booze. |
| 20:33.14 | TehLaser | If we let capitalism at alcohol, it'd be so successful that everyone would be drunk all the time. |
| 20:35.41 | unum | some libertarians argue that bannishing drugs made them more popular |
| 20:36.00 | unum | because it raised the amount to made per sell, thus encouraging stronger marketing |
| 20:36.39 | JoshH | it definitely created a lot more crime |
| 20:36.44 | stderr | well, I don't know about that. I don't think it had much effect either way. |
| 20:36.52 | stderr | (in making them "more popular") |
| 20:36.53 | fozzmoo | I agree. I'm all for decriminalization of a lot of drugs |
| 20:36.58 | Nafai | Oh man |
| 20:37.05 | Nafai | I agree with fozzmoo on something political? |
| 20:37.11 | stderr | they're certainly easy to get. I'm sure I could get a sack of weed easier than, say, a good bottle of Glenfidditch. |
| 20:37.11 | sjansen | Whether that's the case or not, America's war on drugs has had devastating consequences for Colombia and Mexico. |
| 20:37.20 | JoshH | Nafai: a stopped clock is right twice a day |
| 20:37.26 | Nafai | JoshH: Heh. |
| 20:37.55 | mulicheng | I think the war on drugs would go away if people weren't as interested in taking drugs. |
| 20:38.05 | mulicheng | seems there will always be a supply if there is a demand. |
| 20:38.21 | mulicheng | don't ask me how to fix that though, complicated problem it is. |
| 20:38.41 | Nafai | frankly I've become warry of any government program entitled "war on ..." |
| 20:38.55 | Nafai | that should be a flag for "doing it the wrong way" |
| 20:39.17 | unum | Nafai: agreed |
| 20:39.20 | fozzmoo | War On Entitlements. |
| 20:39.22 | fozzmoo | That'd be cool. |
| 20:39.33 | Jayce^ | oooh |
| 20:39.35 | JoshH | i'm entitled to fozzmoo's paycheck |
| 20:39.42 | JoshH | at least a decent cut! |
| 20:39.42 | Supaplex | yoink! |
| 20:39.51 | Jayce^ | you know, xkcd should try to do one of those timeline visualizations with WoT..... |
| 20:40.11 | Jayce^ | might prevent some of the @#$@#$ re-reading |
| 20:40.18 | unum | I'm entitled to a freeway!!!! |
| 20:40.24 | unum | and a sewer |
| 20:40.28 | unum | please don't take my sewer |
| 20:40.33 | unum | I'll do anything, I swear |
| 20:40.36 | Nafai | unum needs a place to live |
| 20:40.41 | fozzmoo | unum: You want your own sewer? Buy it yourself. |
| 20:40.43 | Nafai | so don't take his sewer |
| 20:40.48 | goozbach | Jayce^: is there a big enough poster? |
| 20:40.51 | goozbach | :) |
| 20:41.00 | Jayce^ | one heck of a PDF, for sure |
| 20:41.01 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 20:41.03 | Supaplex | should we be generous and give him extra sewage? |
| 20:41.08 | unum | I just want my sewer subsidized with tax payer money |
| 20:41.23 | fozzmoo | unum: if you share with other people, that's doable. |
| 20:42.04 | unum | if we're declaring war on goverment spending let's go after the subsidizing of sports |
| 20:42.06 | TehLaser | Y'know, I rather doubt that if recreational drug prices went down to free market values we'd have less use. |
| 20:42.10 | unum | especially USU's football team |
| 20:42.13 | JoshH | fozzmoo: what specific entitlements are you against? |
| 20:42.23 | unum | USU football, because our crime rate was too low!!!! |
| 20:42.23 | fozzmoo | unum: I agree! |
| 20:42.25 | JoshH | i'd guess healthcare, welfare, etc? |
| 20:42.40 | unum | JoshH: welfare can mean 15 different things |
| 20:42.41 | fozzmoo | JoshH: The Fed. Govt gives cell phones to the poor. |
| 20:42.45 | fozzmoo | It's some Project Lifeline. |
| 20:42.48 | Supaplex | unum: would they axe this new program as the first order of business? |
| 20:42.50 | fozzmoo | Free cell phone with 70 free minutes. |
| 20:42.55 | fozzmoo | That really pisses me off. |
| 20:42.55 | JoshH | personally i've always thought people that need welfare should get it, but they should have to do community service, roadside trash pickup, etc in exchange |
| 20:42.57 | TehLaser | Even if there is a point about marketing making it more lucrative, the law of demand is made of stronger stuff than that. |
| 20:43.23 | unum | what about people with severe mental disablities? |
| 20:43.29 | Jayce^ | JoshH: careful, you'll sound like you're preaching mormon welfare instead of US welfare |
| 20:43.33 | unum | should they get any support from governments? |
| 20:43.34 | JoshH | that would be different |
| 20:43.36 | fozzmoo | The average household in poverty works a TOTAL (yes, even with combined employment) of 16 hours a week. |
| 20:43.47 | JoshH | Jayce^: i'm sure the church and i do agree on at least some things, just not gays and beer |
| 20:44.01 | Jayce^ | JoshH: just sayin :-p |
| 20:44.07 | TehLaser | fozzmoo: does that average include unemployed folk? |
| 20:44.14 | unum | a sifnificant number of people collecting SSI have sever and realy disabiliets |
| 20:44.20 | unum | many of them have paid into that fund |
| 20:44.22 | fozzmoo | TehLaser: Maybe. |
| 20:44.33 | Jayce^ | unum: like typing and spelling problems? :) |
| 20:44.37 | fozzmoo | unum: Disabilities are clearly an exception. |
| 20:44.44 | JoshH | honestly i'd rather have the mentally ill sitting home getting some basic care than walking around downtown screaming profanities at people |
| 20:44.46 | stderr | fozzmoo: are they an exception from your statistic? |
| 20:44.48 | TehLaser | Can you even get SSI if you haven't paid in? |
| 20:44.53 | unum | Jayce^: I can't believe I got a job, thank goodness for government work :) |
| 20:45.09 | fozzmoo | stderr: Not sure. I'll have to cross reference my stat. |
| 20:45.13 | unum | TehLaser: if you are disabled you can. |
| 20:45.14 | stderr | You certainly will. |
| 20:45.52 | JoshH | fozzmoo: so i take it things that benefit everyone, like roads and sewers are ok, but stuff that only "lazy" individuals take advantage of, like cell phones, are bad? |
| 20:45.59 | JoshH | obviously that's a simple way to put it |
| 20:46.03 | unum | my experience with people in Utah collecting from parts of the welfare system is different from what I've heard of out of state |
| 20:46.10 | fozzmoo | cell phones aren't "public Infrastructure" |
| 20:46.11 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@67.136.58.130) |
| 20:46.15 | unum | if you are healthy the state makes you work |
| 20:46.22 | TehLaser | well, the service kinda is. |
| 20:46.25 | Jayce^ | JoshH: and how many of those need to be federal vs state vs other locality? |
| 20:46.29 | stderr | fozzmoo: without a phone how is one supposed to get a job? |
| 20:46.52 | Jayce^ | stderr: i've done it a couple times... it's quite possible |
| 20:46.52 | JoshH | Jayce^: i think federal aid makes sense where local governments can't afford something but need it anyway |
| 20:47.00 | *** part/#utah thepaul (n=paul@thepaul.xen.prgmr.com) |
| 20:47.16 | JoshH | utah does get quite a bit of federal money, even as small and republican as it is |
| 20:47.26 | stderr | I just think that providing them a common tool that is expected of most employees would satiate you more than just handing them money. Yet fozzmoo says he's most pissed about that. |
| 20:47.28 | JoshH | unlike donor states, such as texas |
| 20:47.37 | Jayce^ | *everything* gets federal money nowadays.. |
| 20:47.38 | JoshH | not sure about the reasons, but i'd imagine all the kids are part of it |
| 20:47.43 | *** part/#utah Nafai (n=Nafai@travishartwell.net) |
| 20:47.59 | stderr | Which seems a little ridiculous. Are we just supposed to say go screw yourself? PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS, YA LAZY BROWN PEOPLE!! AMURRRRRICA! |
| 20:48.21 | unum | JoshH: it doesn't sound like you paid attention to the last senate race |
| 20:48.26 | JoshH | stderr: lots of the letters to the editor in newspapers after the katrina disaster were somewhat like that |
| 20:48.33 | stderr | of course they were. |
| 20:48.47 | JoshH | some guy was like "i remember when a dam broke in idaho 50 years ago, the community fixed itself without any help from the feds!" |
| 20:48.50 | unum | oops I meant didn't pay attention |
| 20:48.54 | Jayce^ | because stderr believes that everybody that doesn't agree with him must be because some kind of racism/hate/etc |
| 20:49.12 | Migs | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:49.31 | unum | I assume most people that disagree with me, aren't as famaliar with the situation |
| 20:49.45 | stderr | I believe that if you're a conservative Christian, you should be willing to give up a whole lot more than people in America are to help those less fortunate then you. |
| 20:49.46 | brasto | ok guys, at this office I'm contracting for, they upgraded from ubuntu 8.04 to 9.10 and now Samba isn't working. I'm guessing it's because the samba version differs and the method for authentication or the config file has changed between those two versions. I'm about to verify this, but I thought I'd send a quick inquiry into here to see if any of you know what is likely the cause. |
| 20:50.03 | stderr | and, yes, I believe that a source of a lot of the aggressiveness from conservatives stems from poorly veiled hate. |
| 20:50.09 | unum | stderr: they agree with you, they just don't like being "forced" to give it up |
| 20:50.10 | JoshH | stderr: as the joke goes, if jesus were alive today, one thing he definitely wouldn't be is a christian |
| 20:50.13 | Jayce^ | stderr: but we do, just not the ways you want/expect |
| 20:50.26 | JoshH | my liberal astronomy professor told me that one |
| 20:50.27 | sjansen | agrees with stderr |
| 20:50.49 | brasto | ~summon an ubuntu fan |
| 20:50.50 | ibot | apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing an ubuntu fan's coordinates |
| 20:50.54 | stderr | As an american citizen you're paying a MEASLY amount of taxes. Stop whining. I'm more than willing to take another 20% hit to my income. |
| 20:50.59 | Migs | where do professors get off thinking they're experts on stuf? |
| 20:51.00 | Migs | *stuff |
| 20:51.03 | JoshH | whoa, i dunno about 20% |
| 20:51.13 | stderr | well, I make a lot. |
| 20:51.16 | JoshH | i'd actually rather pay a lower percentage, and cut spending where we spend too much |
| 20:51.19 | JoshH | like, defense |
| 20:51.23 | stderr | so I assume I'd be hit (one of) the hardest |
| 20:51.24 | unum | JoshH: agreed |
| 20:51.32 | Jayce^ | stderr: measly? ohe quite a bit more, and I'd rather they did less and took less |
| 20:51.45 | stderr | pay a lower percentage? You're paying the least amount of taxes in pretty much the history of this country. |
| 20:51.47 | unum | of course my whole family would lose their jobs..... |
| 20:52.21 | brasto | aha, eightyeight ought to know since his license plate says ubuntu on it... |
| 20:52.28 | scott___1 | stderr: that's the difference.. in the US one can decide whether one is rich or poor, healthy or sick, and bear the cost oneself.. in other countries with socialized this and that and higher taxes.. one can't fall as lower as in the US, nor can one climb as high either.. |
| 20:52.35 | JoshH | stderr: i am all about low taxes personally, and wise spending |
| 20:52.39 | JoshH | iraq is not wise spending |
| 20:52.45 | JoshH | education and healthcare are wise spending |
| 20:52.46 | Jayce^ | stderr: lowest taxes my rear.. |
| 20:53.03 | *** join/#utah ldav15 (n=ldav15@67.214.231.154) |
| 20:53.13 | mulicheng | I think the fed should have a balanced budget.. like Utah |
| 20:53.25 | scott___1 | is our Utah budget balanced? |
| 20:53.35 | mulicheng | I like Utah's balanced budget legislation. |
| 20:53.36 | scott___1 | I thought they hit a shortfall again this year |
| 20:53.37 | unum | mulicheng: they did, then someone started cutting taxes and declaring random wars |
| 20:53.50 | unum | the state constitution doesn't allow deficit spending |
| 20:53.56 | stderr | I mean I'm making quite a bit into the 28% tax bracket. Trust me, I notice my income taxes. I'm single, with no dependents, yet I have a girlfriend who lives with me and makes minimum wage, so I do support her. I can say with confidence I'm paying more in income taxes than many, many of you. |
| 20:53.59 | unum | so when they fall short they have to fire people |
| 20:54.09 | unum | 80% of the state budget is education..... |
| 20:54.10 | scott___1 | where do you reside, stderr? |
| 20:54.12 | Jayce^ | scott___1: no, newer projects would have caused a shortfall (ANYBODY budgeting on projections will get that), so they convened special sessions, and cut accordingly |
| 20:54.16 | stderr | scott___1: Utah. |
| 20:54.20 | sjansen | I'm mostly okay with taxes and spending, but balancing the budget should be a given. |
| 20:54.21 | stderr | SLC, Sugarhouse area |
| 20:54.22 | unum | the federal government stepped in and helped out last year |
| 20:54.33 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 20:54.34 | stderr | of course the government should balance the budget, mulicheng. |
| 20:54.38 | stderr | *cough* Clinton *cough* |
| 20:55.00 | Jayce^ | stderr: maybe if he had *actually* managed it that would be worth discussing |
| 20:55.04 | stderr | Noone here is arguing that. I'm certainly for the government streamlining and making spending more efficient. |
| 20:55.45 | stderr | dang it I have to leave for home, I shall strike up this conversation again however. |
| 20:56.52 | fozzmoo | How about government closer to the people where the governing can be more accountable? |
| 20:57.02 | fozzmoo | That's the big problem, IMO, with government at the federal level. |
| 20:57.09 | scott___1 | out of touch |
| 20:57.45 | mulicheng | Maybe we just need a reboot. Like when Windows has run too long, you just reboot it and start over. |
| 20:57.50 | sjansen | Some things can only be solved at the federal level. We tried devolving most power to the states, it didn't work so we wrote the constitution. |
| 20:57.51 | scott___1 | I think it's great how things are going now.. under Obama.. this will seal the fate of the party.. come election time 2012 |
| 20:57.56 | tensai | brasto: I'm dealing with a few 9.10 issues, but can't provide any help on that particular one |
| 20:58.14 | scott___1 | tensai: what's 9.10 doing on your installation? |
| 20:58.22 | scott___1 | tensai: mine seems to be running pretty well |
| 20:58.49 | tensai | scott___1: network is being weird. that's the big one. otherwise it's a nice upgrade. |
| 20:58.51 | unum | I have mixed feelings about more local government |
| 20:59.04 | unum | generally I support the idea |
| 20:59.30 | brasto | tensai and scott___1 we are having network issues, and we are guessing samba. |
| 20:59.39 | tensai | sjansen: what's this "constitution" you speak of? |
| 20:59.50 | brasto | since samba is how we access the network here. |
| 20:59.57 | scott___1 | ok.. |
| 21:00.01 | brasto | and since printing to cups directly works |
| 21:13.21 | sjansen | http://www.mail-archive.com/kvm@vger.kernel.org/msg24008.html <-- Awesome! |
| 21:15.34 | mulicheng | Does that only work on one physical machine? |
| 21:15.57 | mulicheng | They say distributed but I think they mean distributed between virtual machines right? |
| 21:16.04 | mulicheng | not multiple real machines. |
| 21:16.08 | sjansen | http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Kvm-TheLinuxKernel-basedVirtualMachine/~3/KCPNMk2eN4w/sheepdog-distributed-storage-management-qemukvm |
| 21:16.43 | sjansen | The physical disks are in multiple machines. |
| 21:17.08 | sjansen | http://www.osrg.net/sheepdog/ <-- Best diagram |
| 21:19.07 | Sargun | scrolls up to see how the debate ended. |
| 21:19.57 | sjansen | Sargun: We voted you off the island. |
| 21:20.12 | sjansen | Sorry. I know it's harsh. But them's the breaks. |
| 21:20.41 | goozbach | Sargun: it's true sorry... |
| 21:20.50 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:20.52 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:20.56 | Sargun | do I get a consolation prize? |
| 21:22.12 | goozbach | a toaster |
| 21:24.20 | mulicheng | sjansen: that is cool. |
| 21:24.37 | mulicheng | I've been using linux-vserver for a long time. |
| 21:24.49 | mulicheng | but they don't have a good solution for sharing disks. |
| 21:25.17 | mulicheng | I'm not experienced with KVM though. |
| 21:25.21 | mulicheng | worth the switch? |
| 21:26.07 | Sargun | http://bugs.developers.facebook.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3152 |
| 21:27.55 | sjansen | mulicheng: Sheepdog isn't a good solution yet. It's still too young. |
| 21:28.19 | mulicheng | I've been looking at pfvs2 |
| 21:28.45 | mulicheng | Haven't had a chance to get all the way through a setup though, but it seems it could work. |
| 21:30.19 | sjansen | KVM has distinct advantages over linux-vserver. 1) It can run any OS. 2) It's officially part of the kernel. 3) It's progressing _really_ quickly. |
| 21:30.45 | sjansen | The advantage of linux-vserver and other "container based" solutions is that it's more light weight. |
| 21:30.55 | goozbach | just fired off a KVM backed vista guest on my Fedora 11 laptop! |
| 21:31.09 | goozbach | taking FOR EV ER to install |
| 21:31.11 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Impressive. |
| 21:31.13 | goozbach | but it will just the same |
| 21:31.25 | Sargun | what do you guys think of namespaces? |
| 21:31.36 | fozzmoo | Sargun: It's a good place to organize your names. |
| 21:31.53 | Sargun | ~lart fozzmoo |
| 21:31.53 | ibot | offers fozzmoo some herring |
| 21:32.18 | goozbach | Sargun: global ones shouldn't be too crouded |
| 21:32.19 | Sargun | try to make jokes that'd at least impress your 2 year old. |
| 21:32.23 | sjansen | Sargun: Namespaces are good. We should all have more namespaces. |
| 21:32.37 | Sargun | goozbach, No, the kernel NS stuff |
| 21:32.43 | Sargun | they're like containers |
| 21:32.47 | Sargun | but cheaper. |
| 21:33.15 | tvc123 | Sargun: so like solaris zones/containers? |
| 21:33.23 | goozbach | interesting |
| 21:33.26 | Sargun | tvc123, surely. |
| 21:33.34 | sjansen | Oh, kernel namespaces. We're using namespaces at GL for guest NX access. Very nice. |
| 21:33.43 | goozbach | whenever I need a "container" I just provision a chroot |
| 21:33.44 | tvc123 | nice I hate solaris ... but zones were cool |
| 21:33.55 | sjansen | But not really an alternative to containers. |
| 21:35.03 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Provides user environment compartmentalization? |
| 21:36.03 | tvc123 | Sargun: link? |
| 21:36.16 | goozbach | I like this guy's energy: http://vimeo.com/6999927 |
| 21:36.30 | Sargun | tvc123, uhm can't atm. |
| 21:36.32 | Sargun | just look. |
| 21:38.30 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Limited compartmentalization. Could be used to build a container solution, but isn't one by itself. |
| 21:39.12 | sjansen | http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:lwn.net+linux+namespaces+lwn |
| 21:39.50 | sjansen | Specifically, we're using pam_namespace for polyinstantiated directories. |
| 21:48.30 | Sargun | wonders where that fellow by the name of elg is |
| 21:48.32 | Sargun | ~seen elg |
| 21:48.33 | ibot | elg <n=fugalh@out1-1601fw.corp.tfbnw.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 2d 23h 22m ago, saying: '-chat I'm running'. |
| 21:52.11 | sjansen | I'm sure he's at work, but he's been ignoring me all day. |
| 22:02.02 | brasto | ok any idea what to do when this happens: |
| 22:02.02 | brasto | smbclient -U sherm -P ####### -C "print /etc/hosts" |
| 22:02.02 | brasto | ERROR: Unable to fetch machine password for RC1$@ in domain HERBS |
| 22:02.27 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:08.33 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 22:08.33 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 22:20.36 | brasto | and this comes up in smbtree: Error NT_STATUS_CONNECTION_REFUSED |
| 22:25.38 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@72.sub-75-216-44.myvzw.com) |
| 22:28.52 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:31.57 | beelzebob | anyone work with openvz? |
| 22:32.25 | beelzebob | I'm trying to find a good way to do scripted setup of provisioned vps |
| 22:33.04 | beelzebob | something like kickstart... to setup and manage the packages that are installed into the vps after it is created |
| 22:34.58 | sjansen | Never used openvz, but sounds like something puppet might be good for. |
| 22:36.17 | beelzebob | yes, puppet is very interesting, I've been looking at it |
| 22:36.47 | beelzebob | I think it's usefulness has yet to click in my brain |
| 22:36.47 | beelzebob | I want it to click though :) |
| 22:38.04 | *** join/#utah Nafai (n=Nafai@travishartwell.net) |
| 22:41.57 | tensai | beelzebob: I've read about openvz and I'd like to try it sometime but haven't yet |
| 22:42.07 | tensai | I would concur that puppet is the One Solution to Rule Them All |
| 22:44.15 | Nafai | OpenVZ is pretty cool, I've used it a bit at home |
| 22:48.03 | JoshH | anyone know how to change the sound volume on osx from the command line? |
| 22:48.21 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 22:51.44 | sjansen | JoshH: shutdown -h now |
| 22:52.07 | mulicheng | lol |
| 22:57.35 | Cyberkruz | JoshH: sudo osascript -e "set Volume 0" |
| 22:57.43 | Cyberkruz | :P |
| 22:58.49 | mulicheng | I guess if you want to automate the volume, or do it remotely, cli is needed, but I just push the volume up/down keys on the keyboard. |
| 23:02.09 | *** join/#utah JoshH (n=josh@2607:fa18:100:8000:191:0:0:0) |
| 23:02.50 | *** join/#utah JoshH_ (n=josh@2607:fa18:100:8000:191:0:0:0) |
| 23:03.45 | *** part/#utah JoshH_ (n=josh@2607:fa18:100:8000:191:0:0:0) |
| 23:04.48 | *** join/#utah JoshH (n=josh@2607:fa18:100:8000:191:0:0:0) |
| 23:11.16 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@70-0-173-141.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 23:21.36 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 23:30.54 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 23:30.54 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 23:33.55 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 23:33.55 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 23:50.52 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@h-68-166-190-66.snvacaid.static.covad.net) |
| 23:50.52 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 23:51.55 | tensai | sjansen: did I ever tell you that you turned me into a gnome user? |
| 23:52.12 | sjansen | tensai: Nope. |
| 23:52.22 | sjansen | gets all warm and fuzzy inside |
| 23:52.32 | tensai | and I think I'm happy with that too |
| 23:54.06 | sinuhe | tensai: What is it about Gnome that you like? |
| 23:58.39 | tensai | sinuhe: I like that I'm able to use it in a way that's comfortable to me. it doesn't get in my way. it's snappy. |
| 23:58.54 | tensai | I'm slightly annoyed that I have to occasionally dig out gconf-editor |
| 23:59.53 | tensai | there are a couple weird quirks. I wish the pager would wrap back around to desktop 1 |
