| 00:01.07 | RyanE | For entertainment purposes, SuperDell would be an *awesome* mayor. For practicality, not so much. |
| 00:01.29 | sjansen | Death to "smart" quotes! |
| 00:01.44 | elg | don't you mean ``smart'' quotes? |
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| 00:06.31 | bug- | âI am so smart...S-M-R-Tâ |
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| 01:22.58 | sanchiro | is this on? |
| 01:23.45 | sanchiro | oh blendmaster.. whence is your name? |
| 01:24.46 | blendmaster1024 | sanchiro, what? huh? |
| 01:25.51 | sanchiro | oh, I am curious what the blending is about? what you blend.. .. etc.. |
| 01:26.19 | sanchiro | I am also trying to figure out why email goes out fine.. but I can't get any email in on exim4 that I want to come in..;) |
| 01:26.27 | blendmaster1024 | oh |
| 01:26.37 | blendmaster1024 | www.blender.org , #blender |
| 01:26.56 | blendmaster1024 | try #exim |
| 01:28.17 | sanchiro | been trying #exim. it's all quiet in there for now.. |
| 01:28.48 | blendmaster1024 | hmm. that happens. try #debian, just maybe, because it uses exim you'll catch someone there |
| 01:38.32 | sanchiro | thanks.. |
| 01:38.50 | sanchiro | I was checking out www.blender.org.. is that your work? blending? looks very cool |
| 01:39.12 | blendmaster1024 | not work, but i'm very very good |
| 01:39.34 | sanchiro | I am trying to find something compelling that I could use to intrigue my boys enough to step away from the Windows OS and to spend a lot more time in linux... |
| 01:39.34 | sanchiro | not work, then a hobby? |
| 01:40.29 | blendmaster1024 | yeah, something like that |
| 01:40.41 | blendmaster1024 | that would be it :) |
| 01:40.53 | blendmaster1024 | i'm presenting at utosc as well |
| 01:41.47 | blendmaster1024 | on blender - and i'm 14 :) |
| 01:42.02 | blendmaster1024 | so, i'm probably the same age as your boys |
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| 01:47.27 | sanchiro | my son is 13... |
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| 04:18.54 | levi | Whoa, Adobe is buying Omniture. |
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| 13:39.34 | tensai | levi: pending regulator approval. because their markets are *so* similar. |
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| 14:34.44 | Sargun | http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10353237-94.html |
| 14:34.46 | Sargun | Hellya. |
| 14:35.38 | unum | too slow |
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| 15:01.20 | Sargun_Screen | unum: for? |
| 15:02.18 | unum | Sargun_Screen: for me. it's a 66% down grade. |
| 15:02.24 | unum | I don't think I could handle that |
| 15:02.37 | Sargun_Screen | What do you use? |
| 15:02.45 | unum | utopia |
| 15:02.49 | unum | 30Mbps |
| 15:02.56 | Sargun_Screen | ...That's wired. |
| 15:03.01 | unum | ya |
| 15:03.05 | unum | I can't use wireless too slow |
| 15:03.29 | Sargun_Screen | Unlesss you figured a way out how to get utopia to go a couple miles, in which case, I'm sure some very rich people would want to talk to you. |
| 15:04.02 | unum | is this going to be used on cell phones |
| 15:04.05 | unum | that would be ince |
| 15:04.07 | unum | nice |
| 15:04.23 | Sargun_Screen | I'm assuming you don't know what wimax is. |
| 15:04.45 | unum | I thought it was an upgrade to wifi |
| 15:04.47 | unum | but I guess not |
| 15:04.48 | Sargun_Screen | or clearwire/wimax |
| 15:05.25 | unum | actually that's not what I meant. what ever the wireless ip's are using now |
| 15:05.30 | unum | I though that's what it was |
| 15:10.32 | Sargun_Screen | Wireless IPs? Mobile IP? |
| 15:13.17 | unum | isp I meant |
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| 15:21.52 | Sargun_Screen | Ah, ok |
| 15:22.03 | Sargun_Screen | WiMAX could repplace that too. |
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| 16:41.27 | sjansen | http://www.businessinsider.com/adobes-acquisition-of-omniture-could-help-define-monetization-analytics-2009-9 |
| 16:46.16 | harleypig | Is anyone familiar with the 'BadName (named color or font does not exist)' error when starting firefox or other gtk apps? |
| 16:46.23 | harleypig | google isn't being very helpful. |
| 16:46.35 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I love how people speculate. |
| 16:46.54 | goozbach | harleypig: make sure your fonts are install |
| 16:46.57 | goozbach | and xfs is running |
| 16:47.29 | harleypig | :> this happened *after* I installed xfs and changed the xorg.conf to use the xfs server. |
| 16:47.52 | harleypig | ps auxw shows xfs is running |
| 16:48.25 | sjansen | goozbach: xfs isn't the problem, it's only used by the (legacy) core font subsystem, not modern FontConfig/Xft. |
| 16:48.52 | sjansen | does a double take |
| 16:48.59 | sjansen | Why would you install xfs? |
| 16:49.18 | goozbach | ahh |
| 16:49.24 | goozbach | XFS is legacy |
| 16:49.26 | goozbach | didn't know |
| 16:49.27 | sjansen | s/FontConfig/FreeType/ |
| 16:50.07 | harleypig | wonderful |
| 16:50.31 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Does that mean you know the real reason? Are you going to tell us? Is it because Adobe's CEO loves green? |
| 16:51.06 | rsimpkins | sjansen: He just purchased a large number of green cubes. Perhaps he does. |
| 16:51.36 | elg | tensai == teh win |
| 16:52.30 | tensai | elg: orly? |
| 16:52.40 | elg | taking over utosc |
| 16:54.41 | harleypig | xorg depends on x11-xfs-utils which depends on xfs |
| 16:56.13 | sjansen | harleypig: distro? |
| 16:56.23 | harleypig | ubuntu |
| 16:56.31 | harleypig | with kde installed |
| 16:56.33 | harleypig | jaunty |
| 17:15.10 | levi | Hi, #utahns. |
| 17:16.29 | goozbach | hi dr levi |
| 17:16.42 | levi | I ain't no dr. |
| 17:16.56 | goozbach | dr nick |
| 17:17.03 | levi | You must be thinking of elg, he's an almost-dr. |
| 17:17.15 | tensai | goozbach: did you go to hollywood upstairs medical college too? |
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| 17:18.46 | JoshH | harleypig: i have x11-xfs-utils but not xfs, and none of the programs for x11-xfs-utils seem to work since no font server is defined |
| 17:20.37 | Sargun | I hate ADOBE. |
| 17:20.45 | Sargun | erm, adobe |
| 17:20.52 | Sargun | erm, adobe products? |
| 17:21.19 | JoshH | i was gonna say, what's wrong with adobe buildings |
| 17:21.49 | unum | I reallly do hope they hire more people at that location |
| 17:22.00 | unum | more hires there, nsa |
| 17:22.09 | unum | that will help lift the local tech market |
| 17:22.14 | unum | not that it's really that bad |
| 17:22.17 | harleypig | JoshH: I commented out the "Files" section in xorg.conf and restarted .... everything's fine now. |
| 17:22.20 | unum | but I always like a pay raise |
| 17:22.21 | harleypig | *shrug* |
| 17:23.29 | Sargun | what location? |
| 17:23.30 | Sargun | NSA? |
| 17:30.16 | fungus | heh, I find that with recent versions of xorg, removing config lines solves most of my problems. |
| 17:30.44 | fungus | it works better with less configuration. praise sensible defaults/auto-configuration |
| 17:52.52 | harleypig | Mildly nsfw: http://pictureisunrelated.com/2009/09/16/unicorns-are-only-supposed-to-have-one-horn/ |
| 17:57.36 | JoshH | pretty xorg is supposed to work great with no xorg.conf at all these days |
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| 18:14.28 | Sargun | Anyone want to play pretend lawyer? |
| 18:14.55 | Sargun | What's the legal action someone can take against me for telling people about them |
| 18:15.07 | goozbach | libel |
| 18:15.08 | goozbach | or slander |
| 18:15.16 | goozbach | depending on weither it's not true |
| 18:15.24 | goozbach | and weither it's written down or not |
| 18:15.56 | Newsome | also depends on the nature of the information |
| 18:16.03 | Newsome | and the source |
| 18:16.50 | jsmith | and any contracts barring said individual from sharing said information |
| 18:17.51 | elg | and how expensive their lawyers are |
| 18:20.45 | JoshH | that advice will be $500, i take paypal |
| 18:22.03 | jsmith | is not a lawyer, and doesn't play one on IRC |
| 18:25.17 | sjansen | goozbach: Sadly, truth is not an absolute defense. |
| 18:25.41 | Sargun | [root@wsdds2 bin]# sed s/^%Traffic/\#\\1/ ddserver-imageSlave.cfg |grep Role |
| 18:25.41 | Sargun | sed: -e expression #1, char 16: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS |
| 18:25.46 | Sargun | Sed gods, I bow down to you |
| 18:26.07 | Sargun | goozbach, written down, and I'm going to be a conduit (like yelp, but for a business setting) |
| 18:26.33 | Sargun | nature of information: Let's say, why someone was let go. |
| 18:27.21 | Sargun | nevermind, figured out the eed |
| 18:27.27 | sjansen | http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=443&sid=&tab=list/view&ad=1586459 |
| 18:27.29 | brac | [ksl.com - KSL Car Classifieds] |
| 18:27.57 | elg | sjansen: that's the car you want to buy me? |
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| 18:28.13 | elg | run! |
| 18:28.54 | sjansen | Sargun: For starts, I'd put your s/// in single quotes just to make sure Bash isn't getting its dirty mitts all over your lovely regex. |
| 18:29.03 | jsmith | elg: Run *from* the telcos, or *run* the telcos? |
| 18:29.29 | Sargun | 's/^%Traffic/\#%Traffic/' |
| 18:29.31 | elg | are they moving fast enough that we have to make that distinction? |
| 18:29.35 | Sargun | I ended up doing that. |
| 18:29.50 | Newsome | Sargun: As sjansen has alluded to, Truth is not neccesarily an absolute defense to libel. see http://www.niemanlab.org/2009/02/the-most-dangerous-libel-decision-in-decades/ |
| 18:32.47 | sjansen | Perhaps you can get someone at a higher pay grade to decree how much your company is willing to disclose. |
| 18:34.02 | sjansen | "I am authorized to say that John Doe was fired with cause. Unfortunately, I can not give you specific details. It is SuperMegaCo policy to not reveal anything else." |
| 18:35.09 | Newsome | "Next order of business, and completely unrelated to the previous statement, I am compelled to remind everyone that ..." |
| 18:35.39 | elg | http://code.google.com/p/gource/ |
| 18:36.52 | unum | that's a state law issue though |
| 18:37.06 | unum | of course if you publish it on line, some one there might read it |
| 18:37.18 | sjansen | Do you really want to be the test case the extend the precedent to your district? |
| 18:37.55 | unum | sjansen: can't extend it. it's based off of statute |
| 18:39.06 | levi | sjansen: Nice car. Fun ad. :) |
| 18:40.23 | levi | RX-7s of that vintage are some of the most awesome cars ever, though I dunno what the guy was thinking with the wood trim inside. |
| 19:05.55 | elg | ok, let's say I *want* to be signed into two locations in AIM. how do I get it to shut up about it? |
| 19:08.20 | elg | Jayce^: you use a mobile device for aim ya? |
| 19:08.51 | Jayce^ | at times, when I disconnect it's set to forward to SMS, unless I have my remote one on |
| 19:09.02 | Jayce^ | the two location thing is annoying |
| 19:09.42 | elg | i want to leave the smart phone on 24/7, but also use adium on the laptop |
| 19:09.57 | elg | but i'm not going to put up with this two location message every time I sign on |
| 19:13.46 | stderr | man Scribblenauts is such an amazing game |
| 19:13.54 | stderr | I unleashed it at the office and haven't had my DS in 2 hours :D |
| 19:31.54 | harleypig | http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=36763&provider=top |
| 19:32.07 | harleypig | How can an educator think this is unthinkable? Moron. |
| 19:34.11 | Migs | hahahaha |
| 19:34.15 | Migs | "THE UNTHINKABLE HAPPENED" |
| 19:34.46 | sjansen | Perhaps he means "something happened, but please don't make me think about it". |
| 19:34.51 | Migs | We all know kids don't have sex until after they've graduated |
| 19:35.16 | sjansen | s/graduated/married/ |
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| 19:36.06 | unum | somehow I doubt that was the first time those two had sex |
| 19:36.32 | harleypig | unum: though possibly not with each other. |
| 19:36.42 | Migs | I actually didn't know kids in my high school were having sex |
| 19:36.49 | unum | harleypig: possibly, but I bet they had had sex with each other |
| 19:36.59 | Migs | I just assumed everyone was a virgin like me |
| 19:37.04 | unum | I knew others were having sex |
| 19:37.18 | unum | though no one I was close to |
| 19:37.25 | unum | we were all way to big of nerds for that |
| 19:37.31 | Migs | maybe that was my problem |
| 19:37.33 | harleypig | Migs: seriously? One of the cheerleaders drove a van to school ... it was affectionally called the "Oral Bus" cause she liked to give head during lunch. |
| 19:37.37 | unum | actually I think I was the only one with a girlfriend.... |
| 19:37.42 | harleypig | at my highschool I mean. |
| 19:37.48 | Migs | yeah, I was blissfully unaware of stuff like that, harleypig |
| 19:38.11 | Migs | knowing plenty of principals now, though, I was definitely very naive |
| 19:38.18 | Migs | they have some great horror stories |
| 19:38.25 | sjansen | I didn't think about it. It's unthinkable. Please don't make me think about it. |
| 19:39.11 | harleypig | I mooned my highschool senior class at graduation ceremony practice. :> |
| 19:39.28 | unum | harleypig: where did you go to school |
| 19:39.33 | harleypig | Orem |
| 19:40.10 | unum | by the time I graduated they had become fairly paranoid about those sort of things |
| 19:40.21 | unum | maybe someone could have gotten away with at practice |
| 19:40.29 | unum | i don't remember attending practice |
| 19:40.53 | unum | but they no longer handed out diplomas when they handed out "diplomas" |
| 19:40.54 | harleypig | I wasn't going to the ceremony--I don't remember why. |
| 19:41.14 | unum | I went for my mom |
| 19:41.20 | unum | I refused to do that for college |
| 19:41.32 | unum | of course if I had walked in college they would have found out my secret |
| 19:43.16 | elg | you had a secret? |
| 19:43.32 | unum | I still do.... |
| 19:43.33 | elg | your linux secret? |
| 19:43.34 | sjansen | unum: The seven foot, purple, spiked dragon tail that only appears when you're wearing a gown? |
| 19:43.46 | unum | though these days I think it's only a secret from my mom |
| 19:43.54 | harleypig | You're gay? |
| 19:43.55 | unum | know they all know I'm a communist |
| 19:44.01 | unum | they all know I'm a democrat |
| 19:44.48 | harleypig | A democratic communist? |
| 19:44.48 | unum | they know about the tail |
| 19:44.48 | elg | except your mom? |
| 19:44.48 | synic | eggyknap: ping |
| 19:44.48 | unum | I prefer democratic socialist actually :) |
| 19:44.48 | elg | they put a tail on your gown if you're a dem? |
| 19:44.48 | eggyknap | synic: pong |
| 19:44.48 | elg | is still confused |
| 19:44.52 | jsmith | unum: Isn't that know known as a "progressive democratic socialist"? |
| 19:44.54 | unum | my parents even came to my last lug meeting |
| 19:45.02 | unum | where I presented on civil liberties |
| 19:45.14 | unum | jsmith: yes thanks for correcting me |
| 19:46.16 | unum | I have an interdisciplanary degree from the college of HASS |
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| 19:46.36 | sjansen | Hasselhoff? |
| 19:46.48 | unum | yep david gave it to me himself |
| 19:46.57 | sjansen | Did he let you drive KITT? |
| 19:47.14 | unum | I had to drive KITT on an obstacle course |
| 19:48.51 | unum | supposedly my meeting is at 2pm |
| 19:49.03 | unum | it's only been delayed about three months |
| 19:53.08 | harleypig | unum: you're a libertarian? |
| 19:53.22 | elg | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8255112.stm |
| 19:53.25 | brac | [BBC NEWS | Health | 'Gene cure' for colour blindness] |
| 19:53.25 | unum | civil libertarian |
| 19:53.37 | unum | econmically I believe in strong regulations |
| 19:53.39 | elg | what would it be like to go from color blind to not color blind as an adult? that'd be some trip |
| 19:57.18 | fungus | I wonder if there is a form of color blindness that involves wrong colors, like blue is red and vice-versa. It would be impossible to test for though. |
| 19:58.48 | elg | i think the test might look something like the ubuntu wallpaper. those who think it's ugly have that defect. |
| 19:59.01 | elg | except the heron one. that was ugly. |
| 19:59.39 | fungus | hehe |
| 20:01.47 | fungus | unfortunately that test isn't conclusive as it is subjective. People with bad taste would throw it off. |
| 20:02.42 | fungus | unless... all people with bad taste don't really have bad taste, it's a genetic defect. They are disabled. |
| 20:21.41 | harleypig | Cool! Now I can get that little placard and park closer to the mall! |
| 20:25.28 | elg | harleypig: your bad taste induces disabilities in the rest of us |
| 20:26.08 | harleypig | Soooo ... you're saying I'm a progressive degenerate? |
| 20:26.17 | goozbach | *snort* |
| 20:26.29 | *** mode/#utah [+v harleypig] by goozbach |
| 20:33.55 | harleypig | Watching this utah senate stream is kind of interesting |
| 20:52.23 | goozbach | sometimes I like to go back and read the superdell wikipedia page, just as a measuring stick and say to myself: "yup I'm still sane" |
| 20:54.01 | elg | that's why I keep #utah open |
| 20:54.03 | elg | ducks |
| 20:54.22 | harleypig | quacks |
| 20:56.00 | elg | -chat |
| 20:56.02 | brac | the new google favicon is uggggly |
| 20:56.13 | elg | pent up frustration brac? |
| 20:59.46 | harleypig | Gay community gives reach around to neighbors? http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7932372 |
| 20:59.47 | brac | [ksl.com - Gay community reaches out to neighbors] |
| 21:00.07 | goozbach | harleypig: that was a bit of a reach |
| 21:00.10 | *** mode/#utah [-v harleypig] by goozbach |
| 21:00.18 | goozbach | not for the post, just for the bad joke |
| 21:00.42 | JoshH | somehow i doubt any eagle forum members attended that |
| 21:01.07 | stderr | goozbach: Try his blog sometime. |
| 21:01.10 | JoshH | "We believe that Utahns are fair-minded and that they eventually will come to see that discrimination does not belong in our state," said Valerie Larabee, executive director of the Utah Pride Center. |
| 21:01.17 | JoshH | wow, what reality does she live in |
| 21:01.20 | harleypig | goozbach: yeah, but you used the word reach too :> |
| 21:01.53 | stderr | goozbach: a quote: "My release came all too quickly, even faster than my appeal was processed. My 10 day sentence, which are interestingly enough mentioned in Revelations, was cut to only 7.5 days for good behavior" |
| 21:02.06 | macnewbold | he's a nut case |
| 21:02.40 | harleypig | Discrimination is necessary to everyone leading a happy life ... it's just that some people object to being discriminated in a way they don't like. |
| 21:02.43 | stderr | he thinks his 10 day (7.5) stint in jail is worthy of Revelations. Fantastic. |
| 21:03.06 | JoshH | harleypig, i don't follow you |
| 21:05.11 | harleypig | JoshH: We need to discriminate between one choice or another all the time. |
| 21:05.19 | macnewbold | discrimination, or judgement, is critical to decision making |
| 21:05.34 | macnewbold | people think it is unfair sometimes though, and sometimes it is |
| 21:06.07 | macnewbold | that's how stereotypes and generalizations get made - in the absence of other details, people tend to lump new data with old data they think is similar |
| 21:06.31 | JoshH | how does that apply to gay people |
| 21:07.05 | harleypig | They think they are being discriminated against. |
| 21:07.17 | JoshH | they are |
| 21:08.08 | harleypig | feh |
| 21:08.35 | harleypig | I work with at least 3 men who are gay ... they get treated the same as everyone else. |
| 21:08.48 | harleypig | And I'm fairly sure at least one of the women is gay. |
| 21:09.25 | JoshH | does she look like a football player? |
| 21:09.34 | harleypig | No, she's actually pretty cute. |
| 21:09.45 | Sargun | harleypig, that significantly depends on where you work |
| 21:09.49 | JoshH | cute lesbian? get a pic right now |
| 21:10.01 | Sargun | JoshH, I know tons of cute lesbians. |
| 21:10.05 | Sargun | Well, not personally. |
| 21:10.07 | harleypig | See, there's a stereotype |
| 21:10.16 | Sargun | you know, porn, and stuff. :-P |
| 21:10.27 | JoshH | harmless stereotypes are not the same as constitutional amendments |
| 21:10.29 | Sargun | But, I do know several lesbians who I'd like to tap. |
| 21:10.31 | stderr | well they may be treated by you like everyone else, but they aren't allowed to marry, right? |
| 21:10.40 | stderr | So legally, they aren't the same as you. Correct? |
| 21:11.02 | JoshH | and herbert think that religion should be a protected class but not orientation |
| 21:11.06 | JoshH | even though he thinks both are choices |
| 21:35.14 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (n=blendmas@unaffiliated/blendmaster1024) |
| 21:36.55 | harleypig | sorry ... rl interfered. |
| 21:37.31 | harleypig | As far as marriage, yes, homosexuals as a group are being discriminated against. Is it bad? Some think so, some not. |
| 21:37.56 | harleypig | As far as rights and privileges, homosexuals think they are being singled out and they are not. |
| 21:38.21 | stderr | well, depends on your definition of "privileges" |
| 21:38.25 | stderr | and "discrimination" |
| 21:38.32 | stderr | do homosexuals get beaten up everywhere they go? of course not. |
| 21:38.48 | harleypig | There is a whole subset of society which cannot take advantage of the things homosexuals are claiming as their own area of prejudice. |
| 21:38.49 | stderr | Do they get convinced that it's _their_ decision to be homosexual by conservative cultures they grow up in? |
| 21:38.57 | stderr | do they get convinced that they're committing a mortal sin? |
| 21:39.06 | stderr | These are pretty several psychological discrimination tactics. |
| 21:39.12 | stderr | s/several/severe |
| 21:39.13 | harleypig | severe? |
| 21:39.17 | stderr | aye |
| 21:39.35 | blendmaster1024 | the thing is, homosexual attraction drops the birthrate, which in turn has a negative impact on society |
| 21:39.44 | blendmaster1024 | which i'm sure you knew |
| 21:39.48 | harleypig | blendmaster1024: that's an invalid argument. |
| 21:39.57 | harleypig | You should go to a rodeo sometime. |
| 21:40.01 | stderr | no kidding |
| 21:40.03 | blendmaster1024 | why? oh lol |
| 21:40.14 | stderr | out of control birthrates are just as bad as dropping birthrates. |
| 21:40.15 | harleypig | Those bulls mount each other fairly regularly. |
| 21:40.19 | harleypig | Sheep do it too. |
| 21:40.22 | blendmaster1024 | LOL |
| 21:40.53 | harleypig | So, ignoring the scriptures for the moment, homosexuality being unnatural cannot be backed up by observing nature. |
| 21:41.39 | blendmaster1024 | harleypig, but they also do the normal version - human homosexuals only do the backwards one |
| 21:41.46 | harleypig | It also can't be backed up by studying historically homosexual societies either. |
| 21:41.53 | neybar | harleypig: I picked an odd time to peek at #utah. I see you talking about bulls mounting each other. :) |
| 21:41.57 | stderr | blendmaster1024: bull. Male bull elephants have been observed having male partners for life |
| 21:42.02 | harleypig | blendmaster1024: really? So the gay men who marry beards don't count? |
| 21:42.06 | stderr | same with various birds. |
| 21:42.09 | stderr | and dolphins |
| 21:42.11 | harleypig | neybar: :> |
| 21:42.16 | blendmaster1024 | this is... |
| 21:42.19 | *** part/#utah blendmaster1024 (n=blendmas@unaffiliated/blendmaster1024) |
| 21:42.30 | JoshH | whether it's natural or not has nothing to do with it anyway |
| 21:42.36 | stderr | Now, do I think there's something biologically wrong with homosexuals? Probably. But I don't think it's a sin and I certainly don't think it's their decision to do so. |
| 21:42.58 | stderr | and I don't really care if they get married or not. If others are allowed to marry, so are they, in my opinion. |
| 21:43.40 | harleypig | JoshH: that was my point |
| 21:44.01 | stderr | and arguing from a religious subtext, then you should have the State define marriage as a religious term and not a legal term. |
| 21:44.16 | harleypig | stderr: I think, regardless of the cause, it *is* a sin ... I also think it's none of my damned business. It's between them and God. |
| 21:45.03 | stderr | well I had a Mormon tell me once I didn't sin in murdering in Iraq yet thought a homosexual was committing a sin. Bizarre. |
| 21:45.21 | harleypig | stderr: ummm ... did you murder anyone in Iraq? |
| 21:45.38 | harleypig | Or did you kill people as a part of your duties? There is a difference. |
| 21:46.21 | stderr | harleypig: defined by whom? |
| 21:46.26 | stderr | Not the ten commandments, certainly. |
| 21:46.34 | harleypig | stderr: both religous and state? |
| 21:46.37 | stderr | and I doubt if Jesus would take that argument. Ever. |
| 21:46.38 | harleypig | stderr: oh bullshit |
| 21:46.58 | harleypig | stderr: God commands thou shalt not kill, then commands the wiping out of entire nation cities. |
| 21:47.11 | stderr | well that's a problem in religion, and how it defines sin. |
| 21:47.19 | stderr | So any argument based around "sin" is fallacious. |
| 21:47.24 | harleypig | stderr: no, it's a problem in how *people* define it |
| 21:47.31 | stderr | so _we_ define sin? |
| 21:47.39 | harleypig | feh |
| 21:47.40 | stderr | It's purely subjective? |
| 21:47.42 | harleypig | this is pointless |
| 21:47.47 | stderr | Heh. |
| 21:47.57 | stderr | Thus why I'm not religious! Whoopee! |
| 21:48.01 | thaddeusq | harleypig: Have you ever watched pig wrestling? |
| 21:48.02 | Jayce^ | harleypig: it's standard trolling op, get used to it :) |
| 21:48.31 | stderr | How is it standard trolling op? If you can't answer these questions how do you determine your morality based upon some external source called "sin"? |
| 21:48.40 | stderr | It's fallacious and you refuse to interpret it that way. And you know it. |
| 21:49.10 | thaddeusq | You can wrestle with a pig in the mud, but, eventually you realize that it will accomplish nothing and the pig enjoys it. |
| 21:49.14 | Jayce^ | stderr: no, it's your normal methodology in approaching a discussion.. looking outside in it's obvious :) |
| 21:49.42 | Jayce^ | really hates the network setup here, folks can't keep anything running... |
| 21:49.44 | stderr | Look, God said "thou shalt not kill". This is a mortal sin. You go to hell if you break it. |
| 21:50.02 | stderr | So I'm wondering how you can explain away exemptions from this rule. |
| 21:50.19 | Jayce^ | apparently my wireless is going away, yet again soon |
| 21:50.50 | tensai | processes another DMCA p2p notice |
| 21:51.09 | maquis | lart DMCA |
| 21:51.21 | Jayce^ | because at times it has been deemed necessary.. and in alternate parts of scripture it is more verbose in describing how you can tell the difference |
| 21:52.01 | Jayce^ | tensai: glad I dont' have to deal with those here, but I still get to deal with the card fraud fun :/ |
| 21:52.51 | stderr | ok, point me to the scripture then. |
| 21:53.03 | stderr | I can guarantee Jesus never said anything of the sort, whatsoever. |
| 21:53.23 | thaddeusq | stderr: you were around with Jesus? |
| 21:53.40 | maquis | points to around Alma 47-ish |
| 21:53.50 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 21:54.04 | stderr | Oh, Mormon scripture. Haha. |
| 21:54.05 | thaddeusq | stderr: You can "guarantee" he "never" said anything of the sort? |
| 21:54.23 | stderr | thaddeusq: I can guarantee that the message Jesus was getting across certainly included "NO KILLING" |
| 21:54.49 | JoshH | look at the pics of jesus in mormon's houses, he looks like a total pacifist |
| 21:54.50 | maquis | stderr: really? /me points to Jehovah in the old testament... |
| 21:54.53 | JoshH | and white |
| 21:55.04 | stderr | maquis: A New Testament was written for a reason. |
| 21:55.29 | Jayce^ | and how much of it is missing? and translated funny? |
| 21:55.30 | maquis | stderr: that doesn't change the fact that the Jehovah of the old testament is Jesus in the new testament |
| 21:55.32 | stderr | if you want a country and morality run off Old Testament-esque morality, move to Iran. |
| 21:55.33 | thaddeusq | stderr: keep in mind Jesus wrote nothing in the Bible. New or Old Testament. |
| 21:55.55 | maquis | steps out of the mud again... |
| 21:56.04 | elg | pushes maquis back into the mud |
| 21:56.05 | stderr | Jayce^: so your argument to Jesus about killing being justified would be "You _could_ have said it!" ? |
| 21:56.17 | elg | -chat your argument |
| 21:56.18 | thaddeusq | realizes that he jumped in with the pig. |
| 21:56.18 | brac | your argument is over i don't recall the exact same trap WoodsDog did. |
| 21:56.22 | tensai | Jayce^: at least with card fraud you know who the bad guy is |
| 21:56.41 | maquis | still points back to Alma 47... |
| 21:56.42 | tensai | Jayce^: or which one I should say. not necessarily "who" |
| 21:56.46 | Jayce^ | tensai: not unless you are doing some fun legwork, pretty easy to hide that |
| 21:56.56 | Jayce^ | yeah, which card is easy |
| 21:57.23 | stderr | maquis: ok, what about civilians who died in the course of the invasion of Iraq? Justified? |
| 21:57.23 | tensai | I mean which party. the one who made the charge. with a p2p notice it's hard to see who's more wrong. |
| 21:57.30 | elg | is starting to get rather annoyed by youtube "embedding disabled by request" videos |
| 21:57.36 | JoshH | me too |
| 21:57.39 | Jayce^ | stderr: no, I'm saying that it can be correct, and usually an outsider can't know the whole details |
| 21:57.41 | stderr | or is everyone who was party to the death of a civilian meet the criteria of "mortal sinning"? |
| 21:58.10 | JoshH | i guess killing is bad except for when god tells you to do it |
| 21:58.11 | stderr | Jayce^: so sins live in a gray area, then? |
| 21:58.20 | goozbach | stderr: is murder against the law? |
| 21:58.40 | goozbach | then why are there executions? |
| 21:58.47 | goozbach | jumps in to the puddle! |
| 21:58.51 | JoshH | stderr: this is why logic and religion don't mix |
| 21:58.54 | goozbach | oh crap |
| 21:59.01 | goozbach | I just realized I gotta run |
| 21:59.03 | goozbach | CRUD! |
| 21:59.04 | stderr | goozbach: because of the State's definition of murder. |
| 21:59.11 | goozbach | hmm |
| 21:59.15 | stderr | which is a lot clearer than God's definition of sin. |
| 21:59.22 | goozbach | religion's definition of murder... |
| 21:59.24 | goozbach | hm |
| 21:59.30 | goozbach | *shrug* |
| 21:59.32 | thaddeusq | is glad that God is going to judge all men. I'd sure like to send everyone except me and my family to Hell! |
| 21:59.47 | fungus | hehe |
| 21:59.49 | goozbach | thaddeusq: go to heck |
| 21:59.50 | Jayce^ | stderr: no, it means the actual definition isn't as easy for somebody without a higher authority to judge |
| 21:59.58 | goozbach | you *ARE* in #utah |
| 22:00.07 | thaddeusq | goozbach: I've got a get out of hell free card! |
| 22:00.14 | goozbach | heck is a place for people who don't beleive in gosh |
| 22:00.20 | eightyeight | dang it |
| 22:00.43 | goozbach | thaddeusq: I wasn't commenting on your destination, just your use of the word hell |
| 22:00.46 | JoshH | fetchin flippers |
| 22:00.50 | goozbach | trying to be funny |
| 22:00.58 | thaddeusq | :) |
| 22:00.59 | *** mode/#utah [-v goozbach] by goozbach |
| 22:01.11 | *** join/#utah Jayce^_ (n=Jayce^@office2.bluehost.com) |
| 22:01.12 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^_] by ChanServ |
| 22:01.34 | JoshH | what i'd like to know, seriously, about mormon beliefs is why hot drinks include coffee and tea but not hot chocolate, and why caffeine is considered bad even though it's not even mentioned in the book at all |
| 22:01.51 | JoshH | and even though it's considered bad, it's not actually against any rules |
| 22:02.09 | Jayce^ | JoshH: what it boils down to is harm and addiction... |
| 22:02.26 | thaddeusq | would sure like to see the conclusion of this religious discussion.... Oh wait, no I wouldn't! Bye All! |
| 22:02.32 | eightyeight | JoshH: the early saints asked brigham young the same question at a conference, and he said "hot drinks" could be translated as "tea" and "coffee" |
| 22:02.33 | elg | JoshH: why caffeine is considered bad is cultural. your guess is as good as any. probably because coffee and tea have caffeine in common and caffeine is a drug, cue leap to conclusions |
| 22:02.44 | JoshH | hot chocolate has caffeine too though |
| 22:02.45 | Jayce^ | and it can be, if you have an addiction to anything, it is against the rules... could be healthy grain, and it would be wrong if you cannot control yourself |
| 22:02.52 | elg | why hot drinks means coffee and tea... because that's what someone said somewhere along the line |
| 22:03.03 | eightyeight | JoshH: the whole 'caffiene' thing is mormons trying to grasp the "why", and missing the point entirely |
| 22:03.14 | Jayce^ | JoshH: though smaller amounts, and it has been warned against if you have too much |
| 22:03.18 | elg | historically, the Word of Wisdom was not given as a commandment initially, and even when it was it wasn't religiously followed for a few generations after. |
| 22:03.36 | JoshH | it just seems like the church should put out a statement saying "ok, we realize the drinks rule makes no sense, so just have what you want", because everyone i ask says it's a silly thing |
| 22:03.50 | elg | some mormons get their panties in a bunch about eating too much (or any) meat |
| 22:03.51 | JoshH | but they obey it anyway because they have to |
| 22:03.55 | stderr | JoshH: the Mormon church regularly does that |
| 22:04.01 | stderr | They just lag by 5 or 6 generations |
| 22:04.04 | stderr | give em time. |
| 22:04.08 | maquis | JoshH: very simply because the scriptures aren't the final source of information. we have a living prophet who clarifies things |
| 22:04.19 | eightyeight | JoshH: he who needs to be told everything to do isn't exactly a solid candidate for ethics |
| 22:04.29 | JoshH | i just can't fathom how anyone thinks tea is bad for you, especially since science shows that it's good for you |
| 22:04.42 | JoshH | same with wine though, of course |
| 22:04.48 | eightyeight | JoshH: some tea is good for you |
| 22:04.54 | Jayce^ | and science used to show that smoking was good for you :) |
| 22:04.58 | fungus | stderr: it doesn't take time, it takes massive social flack, then their PR people "clarify" stuff. |
| 22:05.06 | eightyeight | white and green tea are high in antioxidants, while oolong, red and black teas aren't |
| 22:05.22 | stderr | fungus: you mean the prophet has a vision. |
| 22:05.22 | JoshH | Jayce^: smoking some things can help prevent cancer :) |
| 22:05.22 | Jayce^ | and the actual scriptures about it doesn't say tea is completely bad, but the manner it's used, and other elements can cause problems |
| 22:05.24 | JoshH | according to some studies |
| 22:05.25 | fungus | revelation comes from the marketing dept |
| 22:05.26 | Jayce^ | JoshH: same "science" |
| 22:05.41 | stderr | "Feh, we'll practice polygamy, screw the cultural pressure and federal government. *cue federal troops* *cue vision*" |
| 22:06.08 | JoshH | eightyeight: green tea is the one i keep hearing about that's supposed to be good for you |
| 22:06.21 | sjansen | JoshH: Science shows certain types of teas might be good. At one point, doctors thought tobacco was healthy too. Theories change, so you'll find that most Mormon value the spiritual benefits of being obedient over the theoretical health benefits of certain teas. |
| 22:06.30 | elg | i see the WoW as a lower law in place to curtail addictive behavior among the saints. overly restrictive, probably. "better safe than sorry", and as with many things has just as much cultural momentum as spiritual |
| 22:06.56 | sjansen | s/shows certain/shows only certain/ |
| 22:07.01 | JoshH | i think the old beliefs about tobacco are irrelevant |
| 22:07.02 | fungus | stderr: don't forget the African American thing in the '70s. revelation from PR |
| 22:07.08 | elg | in the end it boils down to if you want a temple recommend you must answer affirmative to "do you follow the word of wisdom" or somesuch wording |
| 22:07.09 | JoshH | medical science back then was much more primitive |
| 22:07.16 | stderr | fungus: Oh I know. |
| 22:07.19 | Jayce^ | fungus: PR.... RIIIIIIIGHT |
| 22:07.33 | stderr | Jayce^: no, you're right, God just lagged really long on the whole civil rights thing. |
| 22:07.34 | Jayce^ | and there was never anything otherwise before that with opinions :) |
| 22:07.39 | stderr | his phone to the prophet was broken. |
| 22:07.55 | Jayce^ | stderr: that's why missiouri wanted to kick the saints out, because of their hardcore pro-slavery thing... |
| 22:07.56 | JoshH | honestly though i think the wow is really bad for lds PR |
| 22:07.58 | Jayce^ | oh wait, opposite |
| 22:08.01 | elg | joseph smith ordained black men to the priesthood |
| 22:08.14 | JoshH | because it's the biggest thing that makes people think mormons are weirdos, besides polygamy, and it really provides no benefit to them |
| 22:08.25 | Migs | lol |
| 22:08.29 | elg | the ban was a cultural evolution. David O McKay said it was just a policy |
| 22:08.31 | Jayce^ | JoshH: besides health, obedience, etc... |
| 22:08.43 | elg | an unfortunate cultural evolution, imho |
| 22:08.45 | Migs | every church in America has had to come to grips with racism at some point. Timeframe is completely not the issue here. |
| 22:08.46 | JoshH | i don't think it's a health issue |
| 22:08.57 | elg | ok, IMNSHO |
| 22:08.59 | JoshH | plenty of people who are fit as a fiddle drink coffee and tea and alcohol |
| 22:09.09 | JoshH | and plenty of fatties never have any of that |
| 22:09.13 | stderr | Migs: timeline is an issue if you claim to have an infallible God. |
| 22:09.21 | stderr | which most major religions do |
| 22:09.21 | JoshH | if it's a health issue, why not add stuff like trans fats to it? |
| 22:09.23 | Migs | Infallible God, but not infallible prophets. |
| 22:09.52 | Migs | Jayce^ - Utah was still a slave state |
| 22:09.56 | eightyeight | JoshH: i know of an individual who drinks 24 cans of coke a day, yet no cavities, no bone loss, high oxygen levels. all around healthy as a horse. so, we should all drink 24 cans of coke per day? |
| 22:10.13 | Jayce^ | JoshH: and I know some folks on steroids that are pretty darn strong... but oh wait.. there is more there.. |
| 22:10.15 | sjansen | *shrug* It all comes down to: "Who you gonna listen to." If you feel you've received confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true and Thomas Monson is God's prophet today, everything becomes less important. If you don't, of course the logic won't work as well for you. |
| 22:10.25 | Migs | Mormons were generally pro-abolition, yet Utah still remained a slave state due to the abundance of southern Saints |
| 22:10.35 | Migs | at least those who crossed the plains |
| 22:10.36 | Jayce^ | Migs: funny, don't quite think so, since it was a state *after* the war |
| 22:11.16 | sjansen | stderr: We can claim a infallible God while allowing for his patience with fallible people. |
| 22:11.17 | stderr | Jayce^: it was a territory, and sanctioned slavery by law in 1852. |
| 22:11.19 | Migs | what are you talking about? Utah was a slave state right up until the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect |
| 22:11.26 | maquis | points to sjansen's comment about who you listen to |
| 22:11.33 | JoshH | i think if the lds church would ditch the WoW and let people do what they want, and simply say "try to be healthy" or something like that, they would convert more people |
| 22:11.34 | maquis | Migs: uh... no... utah wasn't a state at the time |
| 22:11.41 | Migs | no, I didn't mean a literal state |
| 22:11.43 | Jayce^ | Most saints in missouri were prohibited by the mobs from voting because they were voting anti-slavery |
| 22:11.45 | Migs | thanks, stderr |
| 22:11.55 | maquis | JoshH: it's not about what's going to convert more people, or about logic |
| 22:11.58 | JoshH | people hear "they ban coffee and tea" and think "whoa what a strange cult" |
| 22:12.10 | stderr | JoshH: I dunno about that. |
| 22:12.11 | Jayce^ | JoshH: some do, others understand it :) |
| 22:12.12 | eightyeight | JoshH: no, i don't think so. conversion doesn't come from what you can and can't eat. conversion comes from a recognition that god revealed something to you to be true |
| 22:12.18 | stderr | I thought Mormons still practiced polygamy *shrug* |
| 22:12.21 | maquis | it's a commandment, so it's not something that we can just decide to ignore |
| 22:12.48 | stderr | I think there's much weirder things in LDS than banning some drinks. Every religion has a restriction of food and drink intake. |
| 22:13.15 | JoshH | maquis: from what i understand, most major revelations came from the top guys wanting something to change, praying to god asking if it was alright if they changed that, and feeling the good feelign that they consider confirmation, and going with it. i have no doubt that they same thing could happen regarding the WoW. |
| 22:13.31 | Migs | At least Mormons are generally known for adhering to theirs |
| 22:13.39 | Migs | most religions just ignore their dietary restrictions |
| 22:13.54 | Migs | it's more "optional" |
| 22:14.02 | stderr | well, except for Jews and Muslims. |
| 22:14.06 | Migs | makes you wonder why you'd even have it in the first place |
| 22:15.06 | sjansen | JoshH: Appearance can be deceiving. We may have tens of thousands of missionaries actively knocking doors and talking to people today, but that doesn't mean we're trying to convert everyone. We're trying to find those who are prepared to listen. Changing the message just to be more inviting is our goal. Sharing what we believe to be God's will is our goal. Until he tells us differently, we'll continue to share what we think he said, no matter how it |
| 22:15.07 | sjansen | 's received. |
| 22:15.08 | elg | JoshH: that's about right in many cases. but I think in general they would have to feel pretty strongly about it to overcome momentum and change the status quo, especially in a "backpedalling" manner. |
| 22:15.17 | eightyeight | i find it funny people bicker about the "rules" and "commandments" of our church. is it impeding your day-to-day? are you restricted somehow, because someone else of another faith has different dietary beliefs than you? |
| 22:15.39 | sjansen | Talking about what Mormon's should and shouldn't do is really a waste of time, since that's now how we think it works. |
| 22:15.42 | Jayce^ | sjansen: think you meant an "isn't" in there |
| 22:15.43 | elg | which is why these sorts of things, the non-vital issues, lag a couple generations (not saying the WoW would be repealed in a couple generations, but if it would be it would probably be in a couple generations) |
| 22:15.50 | JoshH | i think the WoW is like an old blue law that is still enforced even though lots of people think it's dumb, just because of inertia. i don't think it's considered enough of a priority for the presidents to spend time pondering it |
| 22:16.05 | JoshH | but i stand by my assertion that it does contribute to the church's "weird" image |
| 22:16.28 | eightyeight | and being a linux geek isn't a 'weird' image? :) |
| 22:16.34 | Migs | yeah, that's why nearly every general conference has some Word of Wisdom-related talk. Because it's so unimportant. |
| 22:16.36 | JoshH | linux is mainstream now |
| 22:16.51 | eightyeight | heh. for the whole 2% of us |
| 22:16.59 | *** join/#utah elg_ (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:17.00 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg_] by ChanServ |
| 22:17.03 | Jayce^ | JoshH: not really, in that sense |
| 22:17.10 | rsimpkins | How many people use Linux? |
| 22:17.13 | JoshH | well, not among the general computer illiterate population |
| 22:17.26 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: and know they are using it :) |
| 22:17.33 | rsimpkins | Or rather, how many installations of Linux are there? |
| 22:17.38 | JoshH | but regular people who actually know that a monitor is not the computer itself do know what linux is, and lots have at least thought about trying ubuntu |
| 22:17.39 | sjansen | So is the WoW. Tobacco bad. Overeating bad. Alcohol dangerous. There's a lot in the WoW that was ahead of its time. We're will wait until everyone else discovers the rest was too. |
| 22:17.47 | elg_ | Migs: yes but theyre not talking abt oats for the horse, theyre talking ab6 addiction |
| 22:17.48 | rsimpkins | Do we even know? |
| 22:18.03 | rsimpkins | I've awlays wondered how you coun't that. |
| 22:18.11 | JoshH | i don't think we know how many people use any OS |
| 22:18.19 | JoshH | mac user stats are probably the most accurate |
| 22:18.30 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: desktop numbers aren't hard to get. it's embedded and others that are a bit more tricky |
| 22:18.33 | rsimpkins | JoshH: Well, with commercial OSs you can at least kind of guess based on sales. |
| 22:19.05 | eightyeight | http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8 |
| 22:19.06 | JoshH | user agent data from a site like google might give the best idea |
| 22:19.11 | rsimpkins | With Linux, because there is no real central authority for it, does not have the benefit. |
| 22:19.24 | Jayce^ | and you're talking to an OMNT^H^H^HAdobe employee about htat |
| 22:19.24 | eightyeight | http://gs.statcounter.com/ |
| 22:19.43 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: For desktop use, I was after the whol sheebang. |
| 22:19.59 | eightyeight | http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php |
| 22:20.06 | rsimpkins | wooops. mean that to be addressed to JoshH. |
| 22:20.10 | JoshH | sjansen: i understand that line of thinking, but if i was a missionary, what i'd dread the most is having to explain things like why tea is banned, since it makes no sense |
| 22:20.25 | eightyeight | all paint the same picture. linux is less than 2%. mac is under 10% windows really has the rest. |
| 22:20.45 | rsimpkins | Where do they come up with this 2% number? |
| 22:21.06 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: javascript page counters on clients web pages |
| 22:21.21 | eightyeight | who's hitting the sites, and with what? |
| 22:21.22 | rsimpkins | "IDC's report for Q1 2007 says that Linux now holds 12.7% of the overall server market" |
| 22:21.24 | neybar | JoshH: Mostly it's a non-issue. If someone was going to get hung up on not drinking tea, they probably aren't going to be interested anyway. |
| 22:21.28 | *** join/#utah CSJewell (n=Curtis@74-36-215-63.br1.tmn.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 22:21.32 | JoshH | sjansen: didn't you go on a mission to brazil? how was it telling people they would have to give up coffee? |
| 22:21.37 | rsimpkins | That server market is a major take of the total Linux installed base. |
| 22:21.45 | JoshH | because "someone figured hot drinks meant coffee" |
| 22:21.48 | rsimpkins | and someone mentioned embedded devices, which adds more. |
| 22:21.57 | Sargun | You have to not drink warm liquids? |
| 22:22.05 | JoshH | heh, see? |
| 22:22.18 | eightyeight | JoshH: it's not hard at all |
| 22:22.20 | Sargun | rsimpkins, Linux is losing the embedded market. |
| 22:22.33 | rsimpkins | Sargun: How do we know that? |
| 22:22.51 | eightyeight | JoshH: by that point, you've gone far enough down the discussion path, that they believe what you teach to be true. the lord has implemented a health standard. that's it |
| 22:23.01 | Sargun | rsimpkins, At least in my employers industry (nav devices, primarily) |
| 22:23.07 | rsimpkins | Do we believe it, or do we actually have proof in the form of numbers that back up our claim to Linux growth? |
| 22:23.20 | eightyeight | it would be the same if you were converting to islam. you can't have meat, unless it was blessed in the appropriate manner |
| 22:23.27 | Sargun | But low-cost, single-purpose handheld devices.. The number of customers who want to use Linux is going down. |
| 22:23.30 | eightyeight | or you can't have pork if your jewish |
| 22:23.34 | sjansen | thaddeusq: Having a different opinion isn't trolling. |
| 22:23.38 | JoshH | yes, and most people outside the middle east think muslims are weird |
| 22:23.45 | Sargun | Really the only nav provider using Linux is TomTom |
| 22:23.49 | JoshH | just like most americans think mormons are weird |
| 22:24.01 | rsimpkins | Sargun: yeah, but tom tom sells quite a few devices, do they not? |
| 22:24.02 | Jayce^ | JoshH: usually *diet* isn't the leading cause of that though |
| 22:24.15 | eightyeight | you believe it's ordained of god, and you follow it |
| 22:24.36 | Sargun | rsimpkins, Their sales aren't growing. |
| 22:24.49 | Sargun | compared to the number of smart phone users, and non-tomtom devices, it's not impressive. |
| 22:24.52 | JoshH | jews are different though, they are mainstream enough that people are used to their quirks |
| 22:25.07 | eightyeight | JoshH: how are jews mainstream, and muslims aren't? |
| 22:25.12 | rsimpkins | Sargun: Do you get what I mean though? How do you estimate the global reach of Linux in ALL markets? Server, desktop, embedded, etc? |
| 22:25.18 | JoshH | mormons are considered barely above cult status by the mainstream, so them being unable to have tea seems more "strange" than jews not having pork |
| 22:25.27 | Sargun | rsimpkins, Yes, but I wasn't talking about that. |
| 22:25.35 | eightyeight | JoshH: islam is larger than judaism |
| 22:25.44 | Sargun | This is how you measure it: http://counter.li.org/ </sarcasm> |
| 22:25.46 | brac | [Linux Counter: Home Page] |
| 22:25.47 | rsimpkins | Sargun: So, what do you think? How would someone estimate that number? |
| 22:25.58 | JoshH | eightyeight: i'm talking about in western society |
| 22:26.15 | eightyeight | judaism is very eastern thought. not western at all |
| 22:26.35 | sjansen | JoshH: Not a problem. Very quickly you realize the only possible approach is to get straight to the point and let them decide for themselves. |
| 22:26.58 | Sargun | rsimpkins, Score off a few hundred 1x1 mile areas of the world |
| 22:27.01 | JoshH | ok, pick a regular american from the midwest. tell him jews can't have pork. he'll say "ya, i know that, so what?" tell him mormons can't have coffee or tea, and if he didn't know, he'll think "really? gee, that's wierd." |
| 22:27.07 | sjansen | JoshH: If you think it's hard telling people to give up coffee, you should try teaching the law of chastity. |
| 22:27.20 | eightyeight | heh |
| 22:27.21 | Sargun | and take survey of how many linux devices are in that square mile |
| 22:27.35 | Sargun | rsimpkins, Now, if there is a datacentre in there, your numbers are going to be thrown off |
| 22:27.36 | Jayce^ | sjansen: and in brasil too eh? :) |
| 22:27.39 | rsimpkins | Sargun: That seems totally outta step. What if I chose a squar mile in San Jose? :) |
| 22:28.27 | rsimpkins | I know analysts come up with numbers, but they seem to just invent them outta nowhere. |
| 22:28.44 | eightyeight | JoshH: ultimately, there's a few things that separate mormons from mainstream christianity. if we're "weird", so be it. believe it or not- it's up to you. |
| 22:28.59 | Sargun | rsimpkins, that's why you need a few hundred. |
| 22:29.01 | rsimpkins | "Oh, well, 50 million sounds good. There are 50 million Linux devices, and that number is expected to rise by 20% over the next 10 years." |
| 22:29.17 | eightyeight | like work for the dead. woah! that's odd. you think not drinking tea is weird. try baptism for the dead. how does that work? |
| 22:29.55 | harleypig | eightyeight: and the water must get pretty gross after awhile too |
| 22:29.59 | eightyeight | do we actually dig graves, and dunk corpses? or is there something more there? |
| 22:30.43 | fungus | it's baptism *for* the dead, not *of* the dead |
| 22:30.58 | rsimpkins | HITLER! OVER THERE! LOOK! |
| 22:31.03 | harleypig | fungus: I like that response ... very concisse |
| 22:31.05 | JoshH | that at least has an explanation in the faith other than "we don't know why exactly, we just obey it" |
| 22:31.14 | rsimpkins | Get the hitler. |
| 22:31.15 | eightyeight | we are a peculiar people. the lord's people always have been, clear back to adam. the point is, so what? either take it or leave it. |
| 22:31.18 | sjansen | fungus: We know, silly. Just point out how weird thinks can be when they're misinterpreted. |
| 22:31.27 | sjansen | s/misinterpreted/misunderstood/ |
| 22:31.30 | harleypig | Like blood sacrifice |
| 22:31.38 | JoshH | what was peculiar about adam? |
| 22:31.45 | JoshH | other than his ribs had the magical power to make women |
| 22:31.51 | harleypig | sjansen: both misinterpreted and misunderstood are valid |
| 22:32.01 | fungus | adam was peculiar because he was different from the rest of the population |
| 22:32.03 | eightyeight | JoshH: if you don't know *exacly* the point of the word of wisdom, then it's this: you maintaing control over the body, not the body controlling you. it's that simple |
| 22:32.05 | harleypig | JoshH: see ... that's a misinterpreation and a misunderstanding |
| 22:32.17 | fungus | he was human. that was different back then |
| 22:32.21 | JoshH | heh |
| 22:32.35 | JoshH | i guess did separate him from the neanderthals |
| 22:32.51 | harleypig | fungus: you mean he was the only sapien among habilis? |
| 22:32.58 | JoshH | well, i guess they were extinct by then |
| 22:33.22 | fungus | right, the only sapien |
| 22:33.26 | fungus | very peculiar |
| 22:33.34 | goozbach | elg: you just evolved, you lost your tail! |
| 22:33.38 | goozbach | !!! |
| 22:33.41 | sjansen | Okay, wanna talk about weird? The atonement is weird. How does someone suffering and dying 2000 years ago on the other side of the world in away make up for the bad things I do? |
| 22:33.45 | elg | w00t! |
| 22:33.52 | rsimpkins | Can we pick a topic other than death, blood sacrifice, coffee, racial descrimination, relgious freedom, personal philosophies, or politics? I dunno, maybe open source would be good a good thing? |
| 22:33.58 | harleypig | sjansen: or could do |
| 22:34.02 | goozbach | has to go now |
| 22:34.13 | harleypig | rsimpkins: what fun is there in open source? |
| 22:34.14 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: no way man. this is #utah |
| 22:34.19 | rsimpkins | lol |
| 22:34.20 | fungus | rsimpkins: awesome idea. Open Source religion! |
| 22:34.35 | rsimpkins | It just is a never ending debate, and open source has enough of its own internal debates. |
| 22:34.37 | harleypig | We should petition God to open source the universe. |
| 22:34.43 | rsimpkins | we dont' need to add more. :) |
| 22:34.54 | sjansen | There's nothing wrong with trying to understand, but sometimes you just have to accept and wait until you've learned enough basic principles to understand advanced principles. |
| 22:35.00 | eightyeight | if it's not military, church, perl, republicans vs democrats, etc, it's not #utah. :) |
| 22:35.07 | JoshH | i vote stallman for prophet |
| 22:35.13 | harleypig | eww ... |
| 22:35.16 | harleypig | no way |
| 22:35.21 | JoshH | ok fine, just bishop |
| 22:35.25 | eightyeight | i hear he had a girlfriend |
| 22:35.27 | eightyeight | once |
| 22:35.39 | stderr | man I thought the conversation would end after everyone called me a troll, apparently I was mistaken. |
| 22:35.41 | rsimpkins | lol |
| 22:35.50 | harleypig | stallman's a good evangelist but he's not leadership |
| 22:35.56 | sjansen | I'm okay with not fully understanding everything about how the universe works just yet. To me, it's like quantum physics. I trust the people who seem to understand it better, and I trust I'll have enough time to learn everything I need to. That's one of the nice part of believing in eternal life. |
| 22:36.02 | harleypig | stderr: you'll learn |
| 22:36.13 | stderr | Right. |
| 22:36.50 | sjansen | stderr: Because most of us realize you aren't. |
| 22:37.22 | sjansen | Catch _me_ in the right mood though... |
| 22:37.40 | eightyeight | *cough*top post*cough* |
| 22:37.42 | rsimpkins | So - how about a shouttout to OMTR for becoming the biggest tech acquisition in Utah history? |
| 22:37.59 | rsimpkins | Bigger than novell+wordperfect. |
| 22:38.04 | stderr | rsimpkins: who bought em? |
| 22:38.09 | rsimpkins | Adobe. |
| 22:38.09 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Who? |
| 22:38.13 | stderr | ahh. |
| 22:38.21 | stderr | that should be.. interesting. |
| 22:38.22 | rsimpkins | Adobe+OMTR FTW! |
| 22:38.28 | fungus | rsimpkins: but it could be terrible for the employees, depending on what adobe does. |
| 22:38.38 | sjansen | Who? |
| 22:38.39 | rsimpkins | Yeah I know, everyone is like 'what does photoshop have to do with web analytics' |
| 22:38.42 | eightyeight | i read the news, and thought "interesting". then read the rest of my news |
| 22:38.46 | stderr | sjansen: Omniture |
| 22:38.50 | rsimpkins | fungus: That is already negotiated. |
| 22:39.00 | sjansen | Omniture? Never heard of them. Do they make the car? |
| 22:39.08 | sjansen | Oh, wait, that's Dodge. |
| 22:39.09 | rsimpkins | sjansen: They make furniture. |
| 22:39.12 | eightyeight | 1.8 billion should make the shareholders happy though |
| 22:39.18 | phoenix13 | Omniture is the one with all the billboards. |
| 22:39.19 | harleypig | fungus: you tweeted my petition statement? Cool |
| 22:39.29 | fungus | I had to. I loved it |
| 22:39.32 | sjansen | Oh, you mean Mozy. |
| 22:39.35 | JoshH | last time i was in utah county it seemed like mozy was winning the billboard war |
| 22:39.36 | rsimpkins | Josh says he still wants to do billboards. We'll see. :) |
| 22:39.36 | phoenix13 | Hahaha... |
| 22:39.41 | phoenix13 | The "other" billboards... |
| 22:39.51 | sjansen | But I thought Mozy did storage, not furniture. |
| 22:39.57 | phoenix13 | Except some new company called Ma'akoa is starting weird billboards... |
| 22:40.12 | phoenix13 | I've put my furniture into storage... |
| 22:40.14 | phoenix13 | Does that count? |
| 22:40.21 | JoshH | great name for a company that doesn't want anyone to mention it to anybody else |
| 22:40.27 | eightyeight | i sure i have storage in my furniture |
| 22:40.31 | stderr | I went through Spanish Springs to go camping a weekend or two ago, wanted to steal a couple SUPERDELL signs |
| 22:40.41 | rsimpkins | stderr: hehe. :) |
| 22:40.42 | JoshH | you mean saratoga? |
| 22:40.42 | stderr | Didn't have my C&C on me or I would've risked it |
| 22:40.46 | fungus | a lot of the billboards down that way really enforce the provo mormon stereotypes |
| 22:40.46 | eightyeight | at least i can't find my microcd card anywhere |
| 22:40.55 | eightyeight | s/microcd/microsd/ |
| 22:40.59 | stderr | err, yea, maybe it was Saratoga Springs |
| 22:41.06 | JoshH | fungus: i love the ones for husband and wife lingerie shop |
| 22:41.14 | rsimpkins | I need to get me some superdell posters to put up at work. |
| 22:41.25 | stderr | rsimpkins: hehe |
| 22:41.31 | stderr | you and me both! |
| 22:41.44 | rsimpkins | I think he should sell 5 foot high posters with himself holding his favorite firearms. |
| 22:41.53 | JoshH | stderr: you were probably thinking of spanish fork somehow |
| 22:41.53 | stderr | in, what, a large basket? |
| 22:41.57 | rsimpkins | I'd collect all 7. |
| 22:42.03 | stderr | JoshH: ahh |
| 22:42.04 | fungus | think bighead of SuperDell |
| 22:42.55 | eightyeight | i refuse to call him "superdell". i fail to find anything super about him |
| 22:43.01 | sanchiro | help.. my mom has a web site.. hosted by someone named Bravenet.. 2 questions: 1) have any of you heard of this Bravenet? and 2) Any recommendations on hosting a simple informational web site? |
| 22:43.09 | harleypig | eightyeight: a super pita? |
| 22:43.10 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: He is super entertaining. |
| 22:43.10 | eightyeight | "nutjob", "slinky dull" are more fitting |
| 22:43.31 | stderr | fungus: my girlfriend was cracking up at his signs, she laughed for like 30 minutes (as I explained the lengthy story of why Superdell is a douchebag) |
| 22:43.36 | sanchiro | yikes.. what is Mr. Shanze up to now? |
| 22:43.39 | harleypig | eightyeight: so, there is something super about him |
| 22:43.50 | rsimpkins | sanchiro: Read his blog for a good laugh. |
| 22:43.54 | stderr | sanchiro: http://dellschanze.blogspot.com/ |
| 22:44.05 | rsimpkins | It is just classic. |
| 22:44.06 | stderr | just got out of jail! (which was predicted in Revelations inexplicably) |
| 22:44.08 | eightyeight | what's up with the name too? dell? really? i mean, wow |
| 22:44.12 | sjansen | My boss is a thin white Mormon with close cropped hair who has a business selling guns in addition to his main computer-related company... He didn't appreciate the comparison. |
| 22:44.18 | fungus | It's quite hysterical, but then I get depressed when I think about all the people that actually vote for him. |
| 22:44.31 | eightyeight | sjansen: hahahaha! that's hilarious |
| 22:44.46 | stderr | fungus: if he wins my jaw will drop for a whole year |
| 22:44.54 | stderr | I'll need to wheel it around in a handcart |
| 22:44.54 | eightyeight | he lost |
| 22:44.56 | fungus | I will just cry |
| 22:44.59 | stderr | oh did he? |
| 22:45.01 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Does he do totally awesome ads on TV tho? |
| 22:45.04 | JoshH | he won't win, but he will get some votes |
| 22:45.10 | JoshH | well, he might win |
| 22:45.13 | eightyeight | stderr: he's not moving on to the primaries |
| 22:45.15 | JoshH | people are pretty wacko there |
| 22:45.27 | eightyeight | http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/index.php?p=3152&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 |
| 22:45.35 | stderr | eightyeight: ah, thanks *click* |
| 22:47.13 | sanchiro | wow.. sounds like he 'Found Jesus' in the Big House..;) |
| 22:47.27 | phoenix13 | He's a psycho |
| 22:47.37 | rsimpkins | What religion is he? |
| 22:47.43 | eightyeight | mormon |
| 22:47.46 | fungus | lol, mormon |
| 22:48.39 | stderr | to be fair, us agnostics do NOT hold Dell Schanze against you guys. Mormons are generally fairly reasonable people (more so than most religions). |
| 22:48.43 | rsimpkins | I know that wasn't proper English, sorry. :) |
| 22:49.24 | sanchiro | moron |
| 22:49.26 | eightyeight | stderr: thankfully, most level headed people don't judge large groups by singular individuals |
| 22:49.37 | eightyeight | and those who do, are thought to be a bit off their rocker |
| 22:50.25 | sanchiro | recommendations.. for a simple information site host, ? |
| 22:50.36 | rsimpkins | sanchiro: linnode or slicehost. |
| 22:51.20 | rsimpkins | http://www.slicehost.com/ << I've been happy here. |
| 22:51.21 | brac | [Slicehost - VPS Hosting] |
| 22:52.23 | stderr | eightyeight: Sure, but I'm sure people find it distasteful to find their religion distorted in such a way so publically. |
| 22:53.01 | rsimpkins | How did he distort it, exactly? I didn't read the whole thing. |
| 22:53.28 | eightyeight | yeah. it's rather unfortunate to have a ding dong like schanze. especially when you're evil for voting in hunstman as governor and righteous for voting in schanze |
| 22:53.52 | rsimpkins | was he claiming that hutsman was evil? |
| 22:53.57 | eightyeight | gets rather annoying rather quickly |
| 22:54.22 | stderr | rsimpkins: well, he uses religion as the driving force behind a lot of the wacky things he says. |
| 22:54.39 | stderr | well, it's more of an excuse that he bends to the situation. |
| 22:54.39 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: iirc, his whole campaign, was if you prayed to god, god would tell you that schanze is our new leader, and not to let the devil say your vote towards huntsman |
| 22:55.00 | rsimpkins | eightyeight: so, I guess he had a revelation then? |
| 22:55.12 | phoenix13 | Sounds like a guy I saw on the news before... |
| 22:55.16 | phoenix13 | Last name Jeffs... |
| 22:55.18 | eightyeight | apparently. he must be the next prophet or something |
| 22:55.25 | eightyeight | except, he keeps getting in trouble with the law |
| 22:55.37 | rsimpkins | How does he stay a member of the LDS church? |
| 22:55.45 | rsimpkins | I feel like I'm missing something. |
| 22:56.06 | Migs | uh, he never was a member of the LDS church |
| 22:56.07 | eightyeight | rsimpkins: i don't think he's doing anything that would cause excommunication |
| 22:56.18 | stderr | eightyeight: what about temple recommend? |
| 22:56.25 | eightyeight | what about it? |
| 22:56.28 | rsimpkins | Migs: Oh, so he isn't LDS? |
| 22:56.34 | Migs | wait, who are we talking about? |
| 22:56.36 | stderr | I'm wondering if you can pull a temple recommend for this sort of behavior. |
| 22:56.38 | Migs | Schanze is I think |
| 22:56.40 | Migs | Jeffs isn't |
| 22:56.40 | stderr | Migs: superdell |
| 22:56.43 | rsimpkins | Dell Shanze. |
| 22:57.15 | eightyeight | stderr: i guess that would be up to the bishop and stake president. one of the questions is if you're honest in your dealings wiht your fellow man |
| 22:57.20 | sjansen | prefers Linode over Slicehost |
| 22:57.29 | sjansen | Better management tools, more experience, better prices. |
| 22:57.30 | stderr | eightyeight: Hmmm, I see. |
| 22:57.32 | Migs | Does he actually say things bad about the LDS Church, or try to lead LDS astray into false doctrines? |
| 22:57.34 | sanchiro | well, a conviction will likely result in revocation of his recommend.. |
| 22:57.37 | stderr | sjansen: agreed. |
| 22:57.37 | Migs | If no, then what's the problem? |
| 22:57.42 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I have some performance data that shows overall slicehost is faster/more reliable. |
| 22:57.50 | rsimpkins | sjansen: But I suppose milage may vary. |
| 22:58.06 | Migs | I think you might be forgetting something. Church is for sinners, not perfect people. |
| 22:58.08 | stderr | Migs: well, you'll have to read his blog, but from the outside looking in I would certainly say he's trying to lead people astray with false doctrine. |
| 22:58.24 | Migs | Reading his blog is pretty far down on my agenda |
| 22:58.28 | rsimpkins | and other things, like Linode's API, could be worth a lot. |
| 22:58.45 | stderr | but I'm unfamiliar with what exactly that would entail. Claiming that the Bible prophesized your imprisonment in jail certainly seems a bit ridiculous though. |
| 22:59.10 | Migs | Ridiculous, sure. Blasphemous? Detrimental to the spiritual well-being of others? |
| 22:59.13 | sanchiro | rsimpkins, ok, I am checking slicehost's site.. if a site just has informational pages.. and perhaps a couple pages or sections that are more information, but restricted and require password to access.. no commerce, no shopping cart.. is that something I could just host on my apache server.. ? |
| 22:59.16 | eightyeight | Migs: dell schanze is mormon. he's been on infomercials about celestial marriage in the temple, reading the book of mormon, and other things |
| 22:59.17 | Migs | that would be left up to a church disciplinary council |
| 22:59.23 | sanchiro | 99.999% uptime is not critical |
| 22:59.29 | rsimpkins | sanchiro: yes. |
| 22:59.36 | eightyeight | Migs: he's open about his membership in the lds church |
| 22:59.38 | Migs | my dad used to serve on a disciplinary council :) |
| 22:59.52 | rsimpkins | sanchiro: You can get shared hosting for like $15/year now-a-days. |
| 23:00.08 | Migs | members are excommunicated all the time when they demonstrate an unwillingness to conform to certain laws of the church |
| 23:00.22 | sjansen | sanchiro: Slicehost and Linode are completely do-it-yourself. No pre-packages solutions of any type. |
| 23:00.30 | Migs | it's not unusual. If he's doing that sort of thing, he may get called on it |
| 23:00.32 | Tene | I've heard some good things about openhosting. |
| 23:00.41 | fungus | Also imagine the flack he would give the people that excommunicated him. I don't think they dare take any action against him. |
| 23:00.55 | stderr | wonder how much he tithes |
| 23:00.56 | eightyeight | sanchiro: pending on what you want to pay, root certified might be good for you. 100% managed hosting |
| 23:01.02 | rsimpkins | sanchiro: I figured you were a linux guy, and maybe would want a bit more control, since you're hanging out in #utah on freenode. :) |
| 23:01.21 | eightyeight | stderr: i doubt much. he ows 1.1 million to the irs in debt |
| 23:01.31 | sanchiro | rsimpkins, fair enough.. it depends on what my mom wants for her site.. I'll take her on a tour and see what she says.. |
| 23:01.34 | stderr | ha! awesome. |
| 23:02.17 | rsimpkins | sanchiro: Support a local business - http://www.bluehost.com/ |
| 23:03.25 | eightyeight | stderr: source: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705299285,00.html |
| 23:03.26 | brac | [Deseret News | Driving case puts 'Superdell' in court] |
| 23:04.39 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@c-67-171-119-91.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:08.35 | stderr | eightyeight: thank you sir. |
| 23:09.15 | eightyeight | np |
| 23:10.18 | stderr | reading up on the WoW, I didn't know about this "grain based light drinks" thing. Very interesting. |
| 23:12.10 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 23:12.11 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 23:12.14 | sanchiro | how about this reference.. about the Lord and his view on wine Mark 14: 25 aside from His being the greatest wine maker.. per the wedding at Cana... |
| 23:12.53 | sanchiro | i am anxious to be there at that day ... when he drinks it new in the kingdom of God..;) |
| 23:14.17 | harleypig | naw ... they drink Pepsi and Mt Dew in heaven. |
| 23:14.25 | eightyeight | dr pepper |
| 23:14.34 | eightyeight | nectar of the gods |
| 23:14.47 | harleypig | Pepsi/Mt Dew == nectar of the gods |
| 23:15.40 | eightyeight | pepsi is a failed attempt at making a cola, and mt dew is an adomination |
| 23:16.01 | eightyeight | even tab > pepsi |
| 23:18.40 | harleypig | eightyeight: wtf is an 'adomination' ? |
| 23:18.44 | harleypig | :> |
| 23:19.03 | harleypig | ah ... mt dew will dominate all others ... |
| 23:19.30 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:20.06 | eightyeight | well, i do like the recent mt dew ads. esp the dude head-butting a mtn goat |
| 23:20.17 | harleypig | ... |
| 23:20.26 | harleypig | that's not recent ... that's like a couple of years ago |
| 23:20.37 | eightyeight | shows you how much i watch tv |
| 23:21.24 | eightyeight | i'm a pepper. he's a pepper. she's a peeper, we're a pepper. wouldn't you like to be a pepper, too? |
| 23:21.33 | eightyeight | s/ee/ep/ |
| 23:25.27 | *** join/#utah CSJewell (n=Curtis@74-36-215-63.br1.tmn.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 23:27.05 | *** join/#utah blendmaster1024 (n=blendmas@unaffiliated/blendmaster1024) |
| 23:27.30 | fungus | I'd rather be a peeper. :) |
| 23:33.34 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 23:33.34 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 23:33.34 | harleypig | My favorite old testament story: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_sam/18/ |
| 23:33.43 | harleypig | Just thought I'd share. |
| 23:36.22 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |