| 01:33.35 | *** join/#utah gerberb (n=gerberb@opensuse/member/Gerberb) |
| 01:39.10 | *** join/#utah tyce (n=tyce@69.169.175.23.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net) |
| 01:43.21 | Sargun | ~weather 94566 |
| 01:48.32 | *** join/#utah bgerber (n=gerberb@suse103.zenez.com) |
| 02:17.49 | goozbach | ok what's the proper OOP way of creating objects when one object has all the attributes of another object (parent class) but adds more? |
| 02:18.00 | goozbach | ie. I have an author object |
| 02:18.07 | goozbach | which has three attributes |
| 02:18.40 | goozbach | and the authenticated author object which has the three attributes that the author object has, but with additional attributes |
| 02:19.04 | goozbach | do I make an Author class and extend it with Author::Authenticated |
| 02:19.55 | goozbach | or a base class author, which has children: author::Anonymous and author::Authenticated? |
| 02:20.48 | goozbach | where the author and author::Anonymous are functionally equivilent. |
| 02:24.13 | levi | If they're functionally equivalent, you don't need to make a separate class for one. |
| 02:24.36 | levi | Just have the base class and one child that has the extra attributes. |
| 02:24.45 | goozbach | that's what I thought but I wasn't sure |
| 02:25.16 | levi | One thing that they teach you in OO class is to make sure that inheritance follows an is-a relationship rather than a has-a relationship. |
| 02:25.55 | goozbach | yeah, I really lack the CS theory knowlege |
| 02:26.22 | levi | This is more of a software engineering theory thing than a CS theory thing. |
| 02:26.36 | goozbach | well yeah, aparently I lack in both |
| 02:26.53 | goozbach | maybe I should break out the two textbooks I have from when I dropped out of school |
| 02:27.46 | levi | The class I took used 'Head First Design Patterns', which seemed like a pretty good text for the sort of person who doesn't like hardcore software engineering texts. |
| 02:28.29 | goozbach | Head first design patterns... I'll look into it |
| 02:29.01 | goozbach | and it's an oriley book |
| 02:29.10 | goozbach | adding it to my safari bookshelf... |
| 02:30.45 | levi | If you're using perl or some similar highly dynamic language, keep in mind that several of the well-known design patterns are there to add the sorts of dynamic effects that come for free in those languages to languages with C++/Java-style type systems. |
| 02:33.51 | levi | It's been a while, and all my OO design knowledge is rusty, so hopefully the book will help. |
| 02:34.01 | goozbach | yeah I'm using perl |
| 02:34.06 | goozbach | but I don't program enough |
| 02:34.54 | goozbach | so I have a problem deciding when to use a new class vs just making an existing class do more |
| 02:37.08 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@techhat.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 02:38.38 | goozbach | levi: thanks for the help |
| 02:44.16 | *** join/#utah zzzirk_a` (n=zzzirk@173-10-29-145-BusName-utah.ut.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 02:45.55 | levi | A lot of these decisions come down to feel and experience. Don't feel bad if you don't have a good answer right away, just be willing to experiment and change ('refactor') until they feel right. |
| 02:46.18 | goozbach | well |
| 02:46.26 | goozbach | I'm just making the docs first |
| 02:46.50 | goozbach | and getting the docs, and the corresponding pseudocode working makes writing the actual code go muche easier |
| 02:47.38 | goozbach | and as this module I anticipate will be used much more than the other module I uploaded to CPAN I want to make sure it's elegant :) |
| 02:52.05 | levi | On a completely unrelated note, it's really weird to see Odd Todd cartoons on America's Test Kitchen. |
| 03:08.41 | goozbach | on the other hand I could just create an author class and only use the appropiate attributes for the anonymous version... |
| 03:08.54 | goozbach | so I don't have to have two author classes |
| 03:09.53 | goozbach | one class with all possible attributes, only some used for the |
| 03:10.00 | goozbach | two types |
| 03:11.16 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@vpn.yellowpages.com) |
| 03:55.01 | *** join/#utah CSJewell (n=Curtis@74-36-215-63.br1.tmn.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 03:59.49 | *** join/#utah Abog (n=toofer@c-76-27-83-60.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:19.09 | levi | I don't understand why people are having so much trouble with this plug-in hybrid concept. |
| 04:20.17 | levi | It's an electric car that can recharge itself on-the-fly via a gas engine-powered generator. |
| 17:54.14 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 17:54.14 | *** topic/#utah is http://utos.org/irc | Log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | UTOSC 2009 Registration is open - http://sn.im/utos-reg | UTOSC Call for Papers ends Aug 27 | We've got fun and games. |
| 17:54.14 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 17:54.20 | TimRiker | sjansen: yeah... qwest killed my dsl the morning and for some reason the bot didn't come back. |
| 17:54.25 | TimRiker | ~lart elg |
| 17:54.25 | ibot | takes out elg with the trash |
| 17:54.49 | sjansen | ibot: Can I have elg's laptop? |
| 17:55.37 | elg | ~rlart |
| 17:55.38 | ibot | takes a large goose feather pillow and swings it wildly in stderr's direction, hitting stderr and sending stderr flying into the closet |
| 18:13.02 | levi | elg: So when did you officially start at FB? |
| 18:24.33 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@vpn.yellowpages.com) |
| 18:29.19 | Sargun | elg, you're in the bay area now? |
| 18:29.54 | levi | Yes he is. |
| 18:30.24 | Sargun | We should have lunch |
| 18:32.13 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 18:32.28 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (i=timr@2002:451b:bd2:1:200:80ff:fe0b:dead) |
| 18:32.28 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:32.43 | Jayce^ | what is network solutions on now?? http://twitpic.com/cra4b |
| 18:33.46 | levi | They switched to Apple Cocoa development? |
| 18:34.16 | JoshH | that's what happens when the marketing department gets an insane director |
| 18:34.33 | JoshH | that person clearly needs to be shot |
| 18:34.39 | levi | (I gotta have more branding!) |
| 18:37.07 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (i=timr@2002:451b:bd2:1:200:80ff:fe0b:dead) |
| 18:37.07 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:41.29 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (i=timr@2002:451b:bd2:1:200:80ff:fe0b:dead) |
| 18:41.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:41.40 | elg | levi: yesterday |
| 18:42.27 | elg | Sargun: so should i get at&t measured rate + sonic.net or comcast or just at&t dsl direct? i'm not interested in at&t for phone |
| 18:43.10 | levi | elg: How are you liking it so far? Getting a MacBook Pro is nice. |
| 18:44.59 | levi | And where did you end up finding a place to live? |
| 18:45.10 | Sargun | elg, Do you care about customer service and crap like that |
| 18:46.46 | JoshH | i'd go with sonic.net |
| 18:47.00 | JoshH | no port blocking, dumb policies, etc |
| 18:47.17 | Sargun | JoshH, Not completely true, they block a couple ports unless you go with the -S option |
| 18:47.27 | JoshH | well, which is fine |
| 18:47.38 | Sargun | JoshH, Also, they're slower, and occasionally their network can be a little flaky. |
| 18:47.47 | elg | do they block any ports I care about? I don't care if they block smb for example |
| 18:48.21 | elg | sonic says they can give me pro (1.5-3/128-384) |
| 18:48.25 | elg | just regular dsl |
| 18:48.43 | elg | i don't care about customer service as long as it's not negative service |
| 18:48.51 | elg | i contact them like once a year? |
| 18:49.02 | elg | unless they're being dumb or something, of course. |
| 18:49.19 | elg | levi: so far it's pretty cool. haven't had a chance to dive into any actual work yet, still getting all set up |
| 18:49.32 | elg | the desktop monitor is awesome huge |
| 18:49.41 | elg | lots of great perks |
| 18:49.50 | elg | but they gave me a blackberry. not sure what to think of that yet. :) |
| 18:49.57 | elg | probably depends on whether I can turn off that stupid red light |
| 18:52.57 | maquis | JoshH: is sonic.net available in seattle? |
| 18:53.10 | JoshH | nah, just CA |
| 18:53.18 | JoshH | in seattle, i'd go with speakeasy |
| 18:53.31 | JoshH | maybe even in CA too |
| 18:53.39 | maquis | is speakeasy a good price? |
| 18:53.57 | JoshH | probably more expensive than qwest or comcast |
| 18:54.01 | elg | Sargun: any idea if a cisco 678 will work with at&t dsl here? |
| 18:54.07 | JoshH | but worth it, if you care about having a good isp |
| 18:54.12 | elg | levi: Santa Clara |
| 18:56.39 | levi | elg: Nice and close to work? |
| 19:02.12 | maquis | notes that speakeasy's dsl seems to be the same amount that we paid comcast last month |
| 19:03.12 | maquis | judging from their website, it looks like they treat home offices and home service the same, so homes get static ip and they might not be too cranky about a server |
| 19:03.40 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (i=timr@2002:451b:bd2:1:200:80ff:fe0b:dead) |
| 19:03.40 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 19:04.10 | JoshH | they aren't cranky about servers |
| 19:05.06 | unum | maquis: but comcast is faster |
| 19:05.33 | *** join/#utah elg_ (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 19:05.56 | JoshH | download speed isn't the only consideration in an isp though, at least for me |
| 19:06.48 | JoshH | subnets, reverse dns, servers allowed, no port blocking/dns intercepting/throttling/etc, and so forth are important as well |
| 19:07.34 | unum | and and comcast is nasty about all of that |
| 19:07.51 | JoshH | i don't like the idea of "residential" service being considered a joke that can be heavily restricted in so many ways |
| 19:08.16 | unum | personally I blame the libertarians |
| 19:12.55 | levi | unum: I like to blame libertarians too, but how do they fit into this? |
| 19:14.02 | harleypig | http://pictureisunrelated.com/2009/08/03/commuting-to-the-nudist-colony-was-a-bad-idea/ |
| 19:14.14 | unum | levi: anti-utopia |
| 19:14.53 | levi | Ahh, yes. |
| 19:15.02 | sjansen | Those aren't real Libertarians. |
| 19:15.25 | unum | sjansen: yes they are |
| 19:15.30 | levi | Real Libertarians are pro-Utopia? |
| 19:15.37 | unum | those who aren't anti-utopia are not real libertarians |
| 19:15.46 | unum | utopia is a government backed program |
| 19:16.01 | unum | which would not exist with out all sorts of different level of government involvement |
| 19:16.11 | unum | such as making quest let them use their lines |
| 19:16.34 | unum | specialy loans, etc |
| 19:17.18 | unum | I took the policital compass test again today, I gone more to the left and down |
| 19:17.32 | unum | I'm becoming a less of a moderate as i get older |
| 19:17.54 | maquis | unum: i'm less concerned about speed... i would love to have reverse dns |
| 19:18.29 | unum | ya, I can't believe comcast doesn't give that to the commercial accounts |
| 19:18.35 | unum | it's crazy |
| 19:18.40 | unum | I gave up and moved to linode |
| 19:19.03 | JoshH | well, utopia doesn't use qwest lines |
| 19:19.19 | unum | it uses qwest poles |
| 19:19.28 | JoshH | true, in some areas |
| 19:19.57 | unum | which qwest allows them to do because they are required by law |
| 19:19.58 | JoshH | but in many cases, qwest wouldn't let them use their poles, which meant they had to go through hoops to bury the fiber, which really delayed the build out in LOTS of neighborhoods |
| 19:20.05 | unum | yep |
| 19:20.08 | unum | they also sued |
| 19:20.24 | unum | so they can use the poles |
| 19:20.36 | unum | I'm just saying it took government involvement for it to be implemented |
| 19:20.38 | sjansen | Most people opposing Utopia aren't doing it because the subscribe to a Libertarian view. If they did, they should also be refusing to allow the government to pave roads or run water and sewer lines. |
| 19:20.43 | JoshH | qwest and comcast have hurt utopia more than anything except their idiotic management (mostly replaced now by smart people) |
| 19:21.13 | unum | sjansen: I don't know a single person opposing it on non-libertarian grounds |
| 19:21.47 | sjansen | You mean you don't know a single person opposing Utopia that isn't hiding behind false claims of Libertarianism. |
| 19:22.06 | JoshH | i don't mind libertarians who are consistent with their beliefs |
| 19:22.18 | unum | a belief in restricting government is libertarian |
| 19:22.24 | JoshH | but the ones who think a crappy broadband duopoly is the free market at work are just idiots |
| 19:22.36 | levi | sjansen: No one said that they're all perfectly consistent in their beliefs. Most people aren't. |
| 19:22.37 | JoshH | besides, qwest doesn't have all the copper out there just because they are the only ones who bothered |
| 19:22.44 | JoshH | government was heavily involved |
| 19:22.58 | sjansen | Or old school Republican. Most people who claim to be Libertarian aren't really. If you challenged them to back full Libertarian policy they wouldn't. |
| 19:23.03 | JoshH | i also hate the people who can't stand any socialism except for the state liquor stores |
| 19:23.22 | unum | JoshH: you forgot the porn filter |
| 19:23.30 | unum | they are ok with a government created porn filter |
| 19:23.48 | unum | and regulating private companies from offering free internet..... |
| 19:23.55 | JoshH | and they usually vote for whatever wacky republican candidate is running |
| 19:24.02 | unum | yep |
| 19:24.11 | levi | "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" |
| 19:24.24 | Jayce^ | *snicker*... you guys are so laughable... |
| 19:24.26 | JoshH | thinking about utah politics makes my blood pressure rise to dangerous levels |
| 19:24.29 | unum | levi: one of my friends almost said that to me |
| 19:24.29 | JoshH | thinks of something else |
| 19:24.54 | unum | it was bizarre |
| 19:24.57 | levi | Jayce^: So are you, so we can all laugh at one another. ;) |
| 19:25.03 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 19:25.09 | unum | wait me mean medicaid, which ever one is for poor people |
| 19:25.16 | unum | s/me/I |
| 19:25.52 | levi | As long as we're laughing and not launching into multi-day useless arguments. |
| 19:26.32 | unum | my goal now when dealing with libertarians is to get them worked up about privacy violations |
| 19:26.42 | unum | though I don't think they believe me since hannity didn't say it |
| 19:26.48 | unum | maybe I need to put it in a chain email |
| 19:27.13 | Jayce^ | ahh unum someday you'll come out of your little boxed in world, and see some reality |
| 19:27.19 | stderr | unum: I think you've run into some pretty odd libertarians. |
| 19:27.27 | Jayce^ | I think most libertarians would rather avoid hannity |
| 19:27.28 | stderr | I don't know many true libertarians who would watch more than 30 seconds of Sean Hannity. |
| 19:27.34 | sjansen | wonders if he could get govt. funding to update Wagner's ring cycle to to explore modern politics in the form of IRC. |
| 19:27.36 | Jayce^ | stderr: agreed |
| 19:27.38 | JoshH | most people that i've talked to who oppose utopia think it's an actual government isp competing directly against qwest and comcast, rather than a government backed fiber network that private isp's can use to provide their service |
| 19:27.41 | stderr | Jayce^: :) |
| 19:27.50 | JoshH | and the UTA, etc don't try too hard to correct that view |
| 19:28.01 | Jayce^ | stderr: but wait, that doesn't fit into his prepared statements on his reality |
| 19:28.35 | stderr | Jayce^: so I'm in Utah now |
| 19:28.41 | stderr | just had me some Barbacoa |
| 19:28.44 | stderr | mmmm |
| 19:28.48 | Jayce^ | yeah, I coudl feel the disturbance in the force :0 |
| 19:28.53 | stderr | haha |
| 19:28.53 | JoshH | man i love barbacoa |
| 19:28.58 | Jayce^ | hehe, used to love going there when I worked up in SLC |
| 19:29.00 | JoshH | one of the top 10 thing about utah for sure |
| 19:29.07 | JoshH | downtown finally has one |
| 19:29.13 | sjansen | reports stderr and Jayce^ as possible terrorist bent on blowing stuff up in the back woods of UT |
| 19:29.28 | Jayce^ | sjansen: woods? in Utah? where? |
| 19:29.42 | Jayce^ | sjansen: and don't you think I've already been pegged on almost all those lists? |
| 19:29.48 | sjansen | Jayce^: I'm not telling. You'll blow them up. |
| 19:30.30 | stderr | blowing stuff up? nonsense! |
| 19:30.37 | stderr | I shoot stuff and it just _happens_ to blow up |
| 19:30.51 | Jayce^ | now why does this make me think of something harleypig would do: http://bit.ly/15lDRj |
| 19:31.32 | unum | it college I know consistent libertarians |
| 19:31.36 | unum | s/it/in |
| 19:31.48 | Jayce^ | that's some college learning there :) |
| 19:31.58 | unum | but now I just meet neocons, who switch their beliefs about government involvement based on the issue |
| 19:32.05 | Jayce^ | spam 419 ? |
| 19:32.09 | unum | the head of the polisci department is libertarian |
| 19:32.40 | unum | though one day in class he endorsed utopia and told the president of the college republicans he could take his libertarian card |
| 19:33.12 | unum | he argued power systems should be built the same |
| 19:33.18 | unum | we didn't talk about water or sewer |
| 19:35.33 | unum | basically government backs the building of the infrastructure and consumers buy power directly from the producers |
| 19:35.51 | unum | it doesn't matter which electron you get as long you paid for the same number that you use |
| 19:36.10 | unum | a lot of the students thought I was at odds with the professor, but we disagreed on very few things. |
| 19:36.27 | unum | it was the neo con president of the college republicans who was always wrong |
| 19:36.41 | rsimpkins | ~lart debian package management |
| 19:36.41 | ibot | shoots debian package management in his sleep |
| 19:36.57 | rsimpkins | That ain't good enough ibot. |
| 19:36.58 | rsimpkins | ~lart debian package management |
| 19:36.58 | ibot | decapitates debian package management conan the destroyer style |
| 19:37.04 | rsimpkins | That's better. |
| 19:37.05 | levi | ~lart non-debian package management |
| 19:37.05 | ibot | cuts non-debian package management into thin stripes |
| 19:38.03 | rsimpkins | levi: You're smarter than I, therefore you probably would now how to fix my seriously brain dead Debian system. |
| 19:38.06 | sjansen | Better RPM than DPKG. |
| 19:38.28 | rsimpkins | Or maybe I'm the one who is brain dead, for isntalling Debian in the first place. |
| 19:38.33 | sjansen | rsimpkins: Maybe not. DPKG is seriously brain dead in a few places. |
| 19:38.44 | rsimpkins | It clearly is too difficult for a person of my limited mental ability. |
| 19:39.06 | levi | What's broken? |
| 19:39.39 | rsimpkins | levi: I can't install anything. Unmet dependencies. Try 'apt-get -f install' with no packages (or specify a solution). |
| 19:39.43 | unum | DPKG is better than RPM |
| 19:40.24 | unum | rsimpkins: which distro |
| 19:40.27 | sjansen | unum: Oh? I want to verify that none of my binaries have been corrupted. How do I do it on _any_ DPKG-based system? |
| 19:40.28 | rsimpkins | so I do that and get: Errors were encountered while processing: /var/cache/apt/archives/libc6_2.7-18_i386.deb |
| 19:40.29 | unum | I mean release |
| 19:40.34 | levi | rsimpkins: What package broke when you tried to install? |
| 19:40.40 | sjansen | rpm -Va |
| 19:40.55 | rsimpkins | I have no clue, apparently I did something to this system to bork it. |
| 19:41.20 | levi | rsimpkins: Does it give any errors about preinst/postinst scripts failing? |
| 19:41.36 | sjansen | I want to find out which packages is taking all my disk space. (rpm -q --qf '%SIZE %NAME\n' | sort -n) |
| 19:42.00 | rsimpkins | dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/libc6_2.7-18_i386.deb (--unpack): subprocess pre-installation script returned error exit status 1 |
| 19:42.51 | sjansen | unum: I want to install the same package on 500 system without answering they same stupid setup question on every single one. (Debian packaging policy does not require 100% non-interactive install, merely encourages it.) |
| 19:42.54 | levi | rsimpkins: Hmm, I haven't seen a pre-install script fail before. Hold on a sec. |
| 19:44.25 | unum | sjansen: I guess redhat did fix most of the problems they had with their packaging policy where dependencies didn't happen |
| 19:44.28 | sjansen | unum: I want to check what files were installled by a package. (rpm -ql package) I want to see what files will be installed. (rpm -qlp package.rpm) I want to see what scripts will be run. (rpm -qp --scripts package.rpm) |
| 19:44.28 | levi | rsimpkins: Try running /var/lib/dpkg/info/libc6.preinst and see if you can tell why it fails. |
| 19:44.34 | unum | actaully I think dependencies were a later add on hack |
| 19:44.53 | unum | my main problem with redhat based distros now is a lack of packages in the core distro |
| 19:45.32 | levi | My preference for Debian packaging is due to the finer granularity of the packaging, not the package format features. |
| 19:45.40 | sjansen | unum: I want to find out where a file came from, get a description of the package, and a list of other files included. (rpm -qilf /path/to/file) |
| 19:45.50 | unum | levi: i think that's where my experience comes from |
| 19:46.21 | levi | I don't really have a RPM vs. .deb preference. |
| 19:47.17 | unum | I know longer know how to contact the guy who convinced me that deb was better |
| 19:47.21 | unum | though it was a while ago |
| 19:47.28 | unum | rpm has since added things like dependencies |
| 19:47.30 | sjansen | unum: That's not a problem with RPM. It pisses me off that so many Debian users whine about RPM without knowing it. Believe you me, now that dependency hell has been resolved, most of the things you'd want to do on a real system are easier with RPM than DPKG. |
| 19:49.22 | sjansen | unum: RPM has sinced added support for dependencies? That's really what you're going to base your argument on? That's like saying I still prefer riding a horse because cars used to require cranking a starter. |
| 19:50.02 | unum | sorry but when I was picking a distro rpm sucked |
| 19:50.14 | unum | and sucked bad |
| 19:50.53 | unum | the dependicies are still a backwards hack to the format |
| 19:50.53 | sjansen | DPKG has _only_ two technical advantages: People actually use Suggests when creating debs. (RPM technically support Suggest, but no one uses it yet). And triggers. |
| 19:51.18 | sjansen | unum: Have you _used_ RPM? Dependencies are hardly a backwards hack. |
| 19:51.44 | unum | I haven't built one, or looked at the format |
| 19:51.53 | unum | I admit I'm going off of old second hand information |
| 19:52.12 | unum | mostly I just hate the fact that I'm forced to used redhat and I'm going to bad mouth it every chance I get |
| 19:52.18 | sjansen | Compared to all the technical inferiorities of DPKG/APT, those two minor advantages pale. |
| 19:52.37 | unum | up2date sucks |
| 19:52.38 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@2002:451b:bd2:1:200:80ff:fe0b:dead) |
| 19:52.38 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 19:52.53 | sjansen | Nobody has used up2date for years. |
| 19:52.56 | unum | and I really wish I had something like dselect |
| 19:53.09 | unum | sjansen: you have to manually install something else on a redhat box |
| 19:53.22 | sjansen | dselect? I could see basing your argument on aptitude, but not dselect. |
| 19:53.31 | unum | I love dselect |
| 19:53.33 | levi | And for an end user, rather than a system administrator, the technical features of either package manager are pretty much irrelevant compared to how they're used in a distro to package everything. |
| 19:53.35 | Sargun | unum, I feel your pain. |
| 19:53.38 | unum | I'd take aptitude |
| 19:53.40 | unum | Sargun: thanks |
| 19:54.07 | sjansen | unum: Yum has been standard for years. Perhaps you and your co-workers are just idiots who haven't learned to take advantage of RHEL. |
| 19:54.41 | sjansen | levi: That an argument for a distro, not a package manager. |
| 19:54.41 | Sargun | Does RHEL still do that remote deploy thing? Where you can create profiles, and remotely update machines |
| 19:55.12 | sjansen | If you want to whine about a distro, whine about the distro. Don't make stupid claims about a package manager you've never learned to use properly. |
| 19:55.39 | unum | sjansen: yum is not on my redhat server |
| 19:56.18 | sjansen | Unless you're using < RHEL5, you must have specifically removed it. |
| 19:56.55 | sjansen | Anything nearly 3 years old is gonna suck. If you were using Debian, your server wouldn't even be supported anymore. |
| 19:57.54 | unum | rhel5 is less than a year old |
| 19:58.03 | unum | you said it had been a standard for years. |
| 19:58.34 | unum | debian did things right from the beginning redhat had to add all sorts of things on as a hack |
| 19:59.01 | stderr | he said yum has been standard for years. |
| 19:59.14 | sjansen | RHEL5 was released March 14, 2007 |
| 19:59.32 | unum | the page I was looking at was wrong.... |
| 20:00.25 | sjansen | Debian used to have some advantages. RH learned from them, adopted technologies from them, and blew past them while Debian sat on its haunches fighting yet another internal flamewar. Debian was stagnant until Ubuntu came along. |
| 20:00.30 | unum | unfortunatly the server admin doesn't believe in upgrades |
| 20:00.47 | Sargun | cat /etc/*-release |
| 20:00.49 | unum | he finally applied the security updates |
| 20:00.53 | unum | it's 4.0 |
| 20:00.56 | unum | or what ever |
| 20:01.00 | rsimpkins | unum: Who is your admin? |
| 20:01.08 | unum | rsimpkins: no one you know |
| 20:01.22 | stderr | the server admin "doesn't believe in upgrades" ? |
| 20:01.23 | rsimpkins | unum: I want to make sure I never do. Can you msg me his name? |
| 20:01.24 | unum | the funny thing is he recently printed out some big old thick pamplet on security |
| 20:01.29 | stderr | that's essentially his job. |
| 20:01.57 | unum | stderr: you know that, I know that, but he doesn't seem to understand that.... |
| 20:02.07 | sjansen | unum: Your companies stupidity is not RPMs fault. You'd be in no better position if you used DPKG, and perhaps even worse since you'd have to deal with a shorter support cycle. |
| 20:02.20 | unum | rsimpkins: he'll never leave here, he's part owner |
| 20:02.39 | unum | sjansen: sorry I made a statement based off of outdate information |
| 20:02.47 | unum | but fedora still sucks. |
| 20:02.59 | sjansen | Potatoes Potahtoes. |
| 20:03.02 | unum | why don't my system upgrades with yum seem to ever work |
| 20:03.30 | sjansen | I'll be the first to admin the flaws (and advantages) of Fedora. |
| 20:03.36 | unum | by that I mean major system upgrades live 9->10 |
| 20:03.38 | stderr | ha! "admin" |
| 20:03.47 | unum | stderr: ya no kidding |
| 20:04.37 | sjansen | But I'm tired of clueless Debian uses using decade old prejudiced and incorrect info to bag on RPM. If they'd ever pull there collective heads out of... maybe they'd do more to improve DPKG/APT. |
| 20:04.38 | rsimpkins | I love debian - "I repeat, this is very dangerous. If at all in doubt, answer no. If you know exactly what you are doing, and are prepared to hose your system, then answer Yes." |
| 20:04.45 | unum | I'm glad redhat finally removed the full install option |
| 20:04.49 | unum | why would you even have that |
| 20:05.11 | rsimpkins | At this ponit, yeah, I'm ready to hose my system down with a new distro. |
| 20:05.19 | maquis | rsimpkins: that is one of the things i like about linux in general |
| 20:05.27 | unum | rsimpkins: which version are you running |
| 20:05.29 | sjansen | unum: For starters? Experimenting and learning. |
| 20:05.38 | maquis | the fact that some distros might warn you and say "what you're about to do is stupid", but it doesn't prevent you from doing it |
| 20:05.40 | rsimpkins | unum: Apparently it doesn't know. |
| 20:05.46 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (n=Tadaka@c-71-195-194-202.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:05.50 | rsimpkins | frankenstein? |
| 20:05.57 | rsimpkins | Isn't that a debian release? |
| 20:06.01 | unum | rsimpkins: what does /etc/apt/sources-list say |
| 20:06.12 | rsimpkins | unum: 'you're screwed buddy' |
| 20:06.13 | unum | sid is a release that will break all your toys |
| 20:07.18 | unum | I'm still glad they got rid of the install everything option |
| 20:07.25 | unum | some day I hope to train my admin |
| 20:07.34 | unum | I don't even install X on my servers |
| 20:07.47 | unum | he doesn't like ubuntu because it wouldn't let him log into X as root |
| 20:07.52 | Sargun | o.O |
| 20:07.53 | unum | and that's why redhat is better |
| 20:08.00 | maquis | unum: ipes |
| 20:08.02 | Sargun | Why would you want to login to X as root? |
| 20:08.07 | maquis | doesn't boot to X *ever* |
| 20:08.08 | Sargun | maquis, ipes? |
| 20:08.09 | unum | Sargun: cause he's a windows admin |
| 20:08.26 | maquis | X is something to start when you need it |
| 20:08.28 | Sargun | unum, Throw him off the roof of the building. |
| 20:08.29 | maquis | not immediately at boot |
| 20:08.48 | rsimpkins | unum: What company do you work for? This guy sounds pretty incompetent. |
| 20:09.02 | Sargun | maquis, On my laptop I start X immediately, because I start firefox, Pidgin, and X-Chat right after I log in. |
| 20:09.02 | unum | rsimpkins: venturedata |
| 20:09.08 | unum | I had to check and make sure he wasn't in here |
| 20:09.12 | Sargun | haha |
| 20:09.24 | stderr | well if he was competent he'd already be sniffing your network traffic |
| 20:09.27 | unum | he hangs out in #utaug somitems |
| 20:09.29 | unum | stderr: true |
| 20:09.39 | unum | he thinks his filters are effective.... |
| 20:09.44 | unum | he only filters port 80 |
| 20:10.37 | Sargun | unum, Everything goes over port 80, don't you know the internet explorer is the internet. |
| 20:11.55 | unum | Sargun: thanks to john dougal it's only legal for porn to be distributed over port 80 |
| 20:11.56 | unum | so that's the only one you need to filter |
| 20:12.23 | unum | the owner of my company doesn't know who his state rep is |
| 20:12.28 | unum | the suprised me |
| 20:12.38 | unum | I think it's Dougal btw |
| 20:13.36 | unum | rsimpkins: if you're trying to break into our network I tightened most things down. you can no longer log in externall with the user account and password being the same, or the password being password |
| 20:13.46 | Sargun | doesn't know who his state rep is. |
| 20:13.53 | unum | well there might be one account where the username and password is the same |
| 20:13.55 | rsimpkins | unum: huh? |
| 20:13.57 | unum | Sargun: do you work in politics |
| 20:14.13 | Sargun | unum, No, I wasn't able to vote until 8 months, 1 day ago. |
| 20:14.14 | rsimpkins | unum: I'm reading your companies website. |
| 20:14.29 | unum | rsimpkins: you asked me where I worked after I complained about the security, so I was accusing you of trying to break in :P |
| 20:14.40 | rsimpkins | Oh. hehe. :) |
| 20:14.44 | unum | Sargun: plus you moved recently didn't you |
| 20:15.09 | rsimpkins | unum: Is this a really small company? |
| 20:15.23 | unum | rsimpkins: <20 full time employees |
| 20:15.33 | Sargun | unum, No, I've lived in the bay area my entire life. |
| 20:15.40 | rsimpkins | unum: Where like 50% of the company is a director or manager? |
| 20:15.46 | unum | Sargun: what are you doing in #utah |
| 20:15.53 | Sargun | unum, Stalking emcnabb. |
| 20:15.54 | unum | rsimpkins: yep |
| 20:15.59 | unum | Sargun: good plan |
| 20:16.16 | Sargun | unum, yup. |
| 20:16.20 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@cpe-071-070-229-150.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 20:16.20 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 20:16.23 | unum | well I should say 50% of the full time staff |
| 20:16.41 | unum | we have hundreds of part timers |
| 20:16.49 | unum | but I'm not sure they're really even people ;) |
| 20:16.55 | Sargun | haha |
| 20:17.20 | unum | it's easier if I don't think of them as people |
| 20:21.09 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 20:21.16 | stderr | it's a little crass to continually complain about the people/company you work with. |
| 20:21.34 | Sargun | My X crashed |
| 20:22.02 | unum | I wasn't complaining about them. I was complaining more about what I do. |
| 20:22.04 | unum | i never see them |
| 20:22.13 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 20:22.39 | elg | levi: abt 20 minute drive w/o traffic (there was no appreciable traffic yesterday at 9am) |
| 20:22.52 | elg | 30 minute train ride plus shuttle, and I'm only 3 minutes from the train station |
| 20:23.05 | elg | and I can get stuff (like my dissertation) done on the train/shuttle |
| 20:23.08 | levi | Not too bad, that's about what my drive here is. |
| 20:23.42 | elg | my walk in cruces was 35 minutes |
| 20:23.50 | elg | not bad at all with a good podcast or something to do |
| 20:24.03 | levi | A 30 minute train ride would be nice. |
| 20:24.16 | elg | it's a nice comfy train too |
| 20:24.17 | levi | I would actually kind of like a long train commute. |
| 20:24.21 | elg | high-back seats |
| 20:24.23 | elg | soft |
| 20:24.33 | elg | armrest in the middle comes up so you can curl up if it's not too crowded |
| 20:24.38 | elg | and it's not, for that stretch |
| 20:25.16 | levi | What's rent like in your area? |
| 20:25.42 | elg | we have a 3br townhouse, 2 car garage, 2.5 bath |
| 20:25.45 | elg | $2300 |
| 20:25.56 | elg | watches everyone keel over |
| 20:26.12 | levi | Ow. |
| 20:26.14 | elg | that's about typical, maybe a bit cheap |
| 20:26.27 | levi | Yeah, that's about what I expected, though. |
| 20:26.39 | levi | I hope you're being paid well. :) |
| 20:26.42 | Jayce^ | cheap compared not too recent prices there, but yeah, compared to here... |
| 20:27.34 | levi | Of course, you're used to not having a lot of disposable income. |
| 20:27.36 | elg | ya |
| 20:28.24 | levi | How does the landlord feel about brick ovens and container gardens? ;) |
| 20:28.37 | elg | she'd probably have a heart attack. :) |
| 20:28.42 | elg | i sold the oven though |
| 20:28.45 | maquis | elg: sorry... i didn't keel over at the cost for the townhouse... |
| 20:28.57 | elg | maquis: well you live out by the wormhole |
| 20:29.12 | maquis | elg: that's not too different from prices here |
| 20:29.23 | Jayce^ | aww, no oven! |
| 20:29.41 | maquis | commute sounds good, though |
| 20:29.53 | levi | I guess you'll have to do your bread in dutch ovens. |
| 20:29.59 | maquis | we've got an hour-long bus ride, or a 45-minute train ride (but have to get home from train, which can be a pain) |
| 20:30.04 | maquis | train ride is nice, though |
| 20:30.14 | maquis | goes right along the edge of the water the entire way |
| 20:30.28 | levi | BTW, did you see the America's Test Kitchen show on 'almost no-knead' bread? |
| 20:30.37 | elg | i mostly do in dutch ovens now anyway |
| 20:30.41 | elg | easier, more reliable |
| 20:30.45 | elg | a little less adventurous |
| 20:30.59 | elg | no i didn't |
| 20:31.05 | elg | i might get a bike for getting to/from the train |
| 20:31.17 | levi | It was a refinement on the no-knead recipe. Apparently they found it produced good results more reliably. |
| 20:31.35 | levi | They used a little less hydration and just a tiny bit of kneading. |
| 20:31.55 | elg | that's more or less what i do. though i don't do any kneading in the traditional sense |
| 20:32.12 | levi | This didn't really look like traditional kneading either. |
| 20:32.15 | elg | i just do one stretch and fold when I shape it |
| 20:33.54 | levi | I'm torn between wanting to move to the bay area, the PNW, or stay here. |
| 20:34.11 | Sargun | PNW? |
| 20:34.34 | Sargun | elg, you take the VTA? |
| 20:34.41 | elg | no, caltrain |
| 20:34.53 | elg | if you move to the bay area, you'll be by me! |
| 20:34.53 | maquis | Sargun: Pacific NorthWest |
| 20:34.59 | Sargun | elg, do you go through diridon station? |
| 20:35.04 | maquis | levi: i'm cooler than elg... |
| 20:35.09 | elg | i get on at lawrence |
| 20:35.23 | elg | not as many trains service it, but it's not too bad |
| 20:35.28 | stderr | both PNW and the Bay Area are great. |
| 20:35.38 | Sargun | elg, Ah |
| 20:35.49 | Sargun | elg, where in Santa Clara are you |
| 20:36.06 | levi | The PNW would put me near my parents, which would let us dump the kids there occasionally for some time away from them. :) |
| 20:36.10 | elg | by lawrence a bit north of ECR |
| 20:36.24 | Sargun | elg, streets/cross streets |
| 20:37.04 | elg | cabrillo and calabazas |
| 20:38.30 | *** join/#utah Supaplex (n=supaplex@166.70.62.193) |
| 21:06.10 | *** join/#utah elg_ (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:07.57 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 22:10.53 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:13.28 | levi | Whee, I found my OS and compiler class documents. |
| 22:14.18 | levi | Would have been a shame to lose my only Haskell program and my x86 OS stuff. |
| 22:19.37 | *** join/#utah elg__ (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:23.20 | *** join/#utah CSJewell (n=Curtis@74-36-212-55.br1.tmn.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 22:23.27 | *** join/#utah CSJewell_ (n=Curtis@74-36-212-55.br1.tmn.ut.frontiernet.net) |
| 22:26.37 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:26.37 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 22:32.57 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 22:32.57 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 22:33.58 | elg | ~rlart |
| 22:33.59 | ibot | whips out a hot clue gun and makes sure that fadein is stuck to the floor |
| 22:39.38 | levi | elg: What's up with all your bouncing? |
| 22:39.54 | elg | setting up my irc client, going to meetings (taking laptop with) etc |
| 22:40.06 | elg | but is bouncing unusual for me? |
| 22:42.25 | maquis | elg: screen |
| 22:42.26 | maquis | :) |
| 22:42.38 | elg | i prefer to not have to read backlogs :) |
| 22:42.50 | maquis | elg: you don't have to :P |
| 22:46.06 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2_ (n=brad@c-67-172-252-173.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:46.28 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
| 22:48.57 | levi | elg: Set up your screen'd irc client with a backlog limit. |
| 22:49.40 | levi | Man, the PLUG list is full of pretentious prigs today. So full of fail. :) |
| 22:50.11 | maquis | levi: what's going on? |
| 22:50.46 | levi | maquis: Whining about people who don't use English up to their standards. |
| 22:51.12 | maquis | levi: lol |
| 22:51.43 | elg | well if i'm not here, nobody will leave a message that i'd have to read in backlog |
| 22:51.53 | elg | meaning, nobody will have expectations that I would have received said message |
| 22:52.04 | elg | unless they left a message thinking I was here when I wasn't, but that's not my problem. |
| 22:52.38 | levi | elg: Well, it's not really your problem anyway. No one really expects anyone to actually be here even when their nick shows up in the list. |
| 22:52.49 | elg | all my rotten neighbors have their wireless networks secured. punks ;-) |
| 22:52.56 | elg | may be |
| 22:53.07 | sjansen | wants to see a levi vs torriem death match in front of the Eyring Science Center |
| 22:53.28 | elg | but if i don't want to read backlogs and i don't want to have anyone try to communicate with me while i'm not here... kind of eliminates the point of screen |
| 22:53.47 | elg | and using this client has some wins over irssi in screen |
| 22:53.52 | elg | namely growl |
| 22:53.57 | elg | yes, i'm a growl addict |
| 22:55.47 | levi | Grr, stupid proxy blocks sourceforge downloads. |
| 22:56.45 | elg | aaand, here I go again |
| 22:59.05 | maquis | levi vs torriem death match? |
| 22:59.06 | maquis | really? |
| 22:59.23 | maquis | grabs popcorn and runs down to provo, hoping she'll be in time to buy a ticket |
| 23:01.14 | *** join/#utah elg_ (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 23:03.53 | levi | maquis: No, not really. I just told him he was a pretentious linquistic elitist. |
| 23:09.47 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 23:13.38 | *** join/#utah bmidgley2 (n=brad@vpn.yellowpages.com) |
| 23:29.53 | sjansen | http://nat.org/blog/2009/08/can-your-os-do-this/ |
| 23:36.09 | *** join/#utah MountainMatt (n=matt@216.129.125.93) |
| 23:38.18 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@1601br1-egress-1.corp.tfbnw.net) |
| 23:38.18 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |