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| 03:00.06 | *** topic/#utah by herlo -> http://utos.org/irc | Log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | UTOSC 2009 Registration is open - http://sn.im/utos-reg | UTOSC Call for Papers ends Aug 27 | We've got fun and games. |
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| 16:22.26 | levi | Hah, 'The Ethics of selling GPLed software for the iPhone' |
| 16:22.56 | levi | Someone ported xpilot to iPhone and one of the original authors sent him a nastygram saying that selling it was 'betraying the spirit of the GPL'. |
| 16:24.17 | herlo | the guy sending the nastygram is wrong. Just as long as the source code is included too, the author of the iphone app has every right to sell it :) |
| 16:24.46 | herlo | s/included/available and given back to the original author/ |
| 16:25.13 | levi | Yeah, no kidding. I didn't think anyone was that naive about the GPL anymore, especially someone who chose to release software under it. |
| 16:26.21 | levi | Of course, RMS hates the iPhone, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a GPLv4 coming out to address this 'issue'. :P |
| 16:27.40 | levi | The sad thing is that the guy who wrote the question about the ethical situation is trying to play nice with the whiny author. |
| 16:28.10 | levi | If he wanted to retain control over how it was distributed, he shouldn't have GPLed it! |
| 16:30.47 | herlo | yup |
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| 16:38.29 | unum | you don't have to give the code back to the original author |
| 16:38.40 | unum | you only have to give it the people you sell the binary to |
| 16:42.00 | herlo | unum: make it available in general implies such a thing |
| 16:43.34 | unum | I'm not as familiar with v3 as I am with v2 but in v2 you only had to make it availiable to the people you gave the binary to |
| 16:44.00 | unum | which to me does not imply making it generally available |
| 16:48.26 | maquis | i believe unum is right |
| 16:48.55 | maquis | because, if you were selling it, you only needed to provide the code to the people who purchased it, iirc |
| 16:51.13 | herlo | yeah, I guess I had learned that part wrong |
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| 16:57.04 | unum | the vim license requires you give it back to the copyright holder |
| 16:57.27 | unum | and the apple license used to have something like that, not sure if it still does |
| 16:57.36 | unum | but rms opposed it because it did |
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| 17:05.28 | herlo | anyone used login.defs with ldap to make getent show uids greater than 60000? |
| 17:05.39 | herlo | can't get it working.. :( |
| 17:16.07 | mecworks | Hey, anyone that's interested in playing with Mono on the iPhone, here's the MonoTouch preview signup form: http://bit.ly/3MxPlS Preview on Wednesday. |
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| 19:18.24 | sjansen | o/~ We had joy, we had fun, we had seasons in the sun... ~/o |
| 19:18.40 | sjansen | Oh, and games. We also had games. |
| 19:18.53 | levi | Whassup, sjansen? |
| 19:19.10 | sjansen | Laptop got fixed this morning. |
| 19:19.30 | sjansen | > 2 hours to replace the main board |
| 19:19.49 | sjansen | Very obvious that Lenovo didn't design the system to be serviced. |
| 19:20.14 | Jayce^ | wasn't that supposed to be fixed last week? |
| 19:20.47 | sjansen | Yeah. |
| 19:21.32 | sjansen | The repair guy got stuck in Murray and practically begged me to not make him work after 5pm on a Friday. |
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| 19:25.34 | goozbach | and you relented? |
| 19:25.43 | goozbach | s/?/?!/ |
| 19:25.47 | levi | sjansen: How many laptops *are* designed to be serviced? |
| 19:26.03 | levi | I took my old iBook apart, and that was not a fun experience. |
| 19:26.34 | sjansen | About six years ago I watched the mainboard in my Dell laptop being replaced. Took less that 15 minutes. |
| 19:27.01 | sjansen | goozbach: Would _you_ want a rushed, annoyed tech working on _your_ laptop? |
| 19:27.15 | levi | Was it 3 inches thick? |
| 19:27.33 | levi | I think modern laptops pay a price in serviceability for their thinness. |
| 19:27.34 | sjansen | Don't remember. |
| 19:28.22 | unum | I paid $300 for my laptop. If it dies I have pretty low expectations of what can be done |
| 19:28.24 | levi | The mainboard has got to play some sort of structural role in really thin laptops. |
| 19:28.47 | goozbach | sjansen: point |
| 19:28.56 | levi | I'm kind of amazed that you can buy a new netbook for ~$150 or so. |
| 19:29.13 | unum | I think those ones come with a phone contract |
| 19:30.10 | levi | Ah, that'd explain it. |
| 19:30.47 | levi | $250 is still pretty cheap, though. |
| 19:31.00 | unum | ya |
| 19:31.06 | unum | I love mine |
| 19:31.16 | unum | I'll probably go with a 9" next time |
| 19:31.25 | levi | I'm not sure I'd really like using one, though. How big is yours? |
| 19:31.33 | unum | 7" |
| 19:31.43 | unum | I mostly use it for presentations |
| 19:31.51 | unum | I rarely do anything resembling real work on it |
| 19:31.59 | unum | take notes in meetings sometimes |
| 19:32.16 | levi | I suffered with a Sony Vaio Picturebook for a while. It still does duty as an asterisk server, though I may retire it from that, too. |
| 19:32.36 | unum | mine has a 900mhz processor |
| 19:32.53 | unum | it's nice because I can take it with me with out it being an issue |
| 19:33.08 | unum | if I don't use it, no big deal it wasn't a pain to bring |
| 19:33.24 | levi | I have a Thinkpad that work provided that I carry in my backpack all the time. |
| 19:33.25 | unum | if I need a computer, I have one with me |
| 19:33.48 | unum | I think a thinkpad is the only "real" laptop I would ever buy |
| 19:33.54 | levi | It's kind of heavy, but not terrible now that I don't have to lug a bunch of textbooks as well. |
| 19:33.59 | unum | I have a couple others at my house right now, but they were freebies |
| 19:34.15 | levi | I'm still lusting after one of the new MacBooks. |
| 19:34.16 | unum | I quit carrying a backpack when I left school |
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| 19:34.48 | unum | I wish I had a small bag for my eeepc, the battery sucks so I need to carry the cord, and I like using a bluetooth mouse with it |
| 19:35.01 | unum | I have a cover for it, now it looks like a planner |
| 19:37.33 | sjansen | levi: I wish Programming Scala had existed a few years ago. I'm loving the language now that it has better documentation. |
| 19:38.04 | levi | sjansen: Are you reading Programming Scala or Programming in Scala? |
| 19:38.26 | sjansen | Programming Scala |
| 19:38.39 | sjansen | Programming in Scala is on my TODO list. |
| 19:38.42 | levi | Ahh, the O'Reilly one. I've only skimmed it. |
| 19:38.51 | levi | Programming in Scala is excellent, though. |
| 19:39.02 | sjansen | PS looked like a higher level, faster read than PiS. |
| 19:39.17 | sjansen | No, the Prag Prog PDF. |
| 19:39.28 | levi | I bought the ebook a year or so ago. |
| 19:39.50 | levi | Oh, the O'Reilly one is called 'Programming Scala' as well: http://programming-scala.labs.oreilly.com/ |
| 19:40.13 | sjansen | The Prag Prog and O'Reilly books have the same name. |
| 19:41.19 | sjansen | So when you say the ebook, to you mean Prag Prog PS, or PiS by a smaller publisher. |
| 19:41.22 | sjansen | ? |
| 19:41.29 | levi | I haven't even looked at the Prag Prog one. |
| 19:42.06 | levi | I mean the PiS published by Artima. |
| 19:42.21 | levi | They did a pre-release ebook thing. |
| 19:42.45 | sjansen | Well lookey there, didn't know PiS had a PDF option too. |
| 19:43.06 | levi | It's got a very authoritative feel to it, having been co-authored by the designer of Scala. |
| 19:43.16 | sjansen | Looks like a much better deal. |
| 19:43.23 | maquis | likes thinkpads |
| 19:43.43 | levi | Towards the end of the book, some of the topics aren't quite as in-depth, but that's understandable. |
| 19:43.59 | Jayce^ | goozbach, jsmith-away just for you guys, I have 3 more versions of munchkin coming this week, so we'll have plenty of selections at UTOS game night |
| 19:44.13 | Sargun | http://sargun.smugmug.com/gallery/6985772_VnPFC#609957252_LJr4J |
| 19:44.16 | maquis | mmm... munchkin |
| 19:45.06 | Sargun | mypassword is the password if you want it |
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| 19:45.39 | Sargun | So, impressive, or not? |
| 19:46.43 | levi | sjansen: I'd definitely recommend the PiS book. While it's a tutorial-style book, it still makes a good reference, especially in ebook form. |
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| 19:47.50 | levi | Sargun: The whole standing on the wall thing is pretty impressive. Why are you playing with candles, though? :P |
| 19:48.11 | Sargun | -_- |
| 19:48.38 | Sargun | My Mouth hurts so badly |
| 19:49.07 | levi | Well, maybe you shouldn't burn it next time. |
| 19:49.10 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:50.10 | Sargun | hehe |
| 19:50.13 | Sargun | no, sadly. |
| 19:50.49 | levi | sjansen: PiS has substantial and interesting examples, lots of detail about how the language works, excellent and logical structure, and was generally an A+ book. |
| 19:51.50 | sjansen | Good to know. |
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| 19:55.05 | levi | So, what are you doing with Scala? |
| 19:56.00 | levi | I wrote a simple blog engine with the lift web framework, but I need to do some stuff that will exercise more of the language features. |
| 19:56.18 | levi | The XML literal support is very convenient for dealing with XHTML, though. |
| 20:00.36 | sjansen | In what universe does reduced demand lead to price increases? |
| 20:01.06 | goozbach | sjansen: in the universe that the gvmnt exists |
| 20:02.03 | sjansen | You mean in the universe where political opponents will make any claim, no matter how non-sensical, if it makes an opponents decision sound foolish? |
| 20:02.21 | sjansen | levi: Mostly XML transformation. |
| 20:02.48 | goozbach | sjansen: that's the one |
| 20:03.21 | sjansen | While I agree there are several dangers with Cash for Clunkers, increased gas prices hardly seems like one of them. |
| 20:03.34 | sjansen | But I could be wrong. |
| 20:04.01 | sjansen | Maybe the nation is doomed unless we start requiring everyone to pay for gas with gold bullion. |
| 20:04.57 | Jayce^ | sjansen: in a world where the govt depends on certain revenue targets to be matched from the gas taxes, when those drop, they have to raise the taxes... happened in a lot of places already |
| 20:06.02 | sjansen | That's not increasing the price of gas, that's increasing the gas tax. Something several people have already pointed out makes more sense than Cash for Clunkers, so I still don't see the problem. |
| 20:08.36 | unum | I guess the schneier thing didn't go any where since we all agree |
| 20:08.38 | unum | :) |
| 20:08.40 | Jayce^ | increasing the tax to keep revenue current is still raising the price at the pump for the user... so raises the gas price |
| 20:08.47 | unum | actually I should have posted the last paragraph... |
| 20:08.48 | harleypig | http://www.smashingdarling.com/item/stove |
| 20:08.52 | harleypig | via redbeard2 |
| 20:08.57 | unum | Jayce^: but the overall price will be lower |
| 20:09.21 | unum | just because the per gallon tax rate is higher doesn't mean the overall gas price will be |
| 20:09.26 | Jayce^ | uh, no, just because you use a little less, they still need the same cash amount.. |
| 20:09.34 | unum | correct |
| 20:09.42 | unum | oh I see |
| 20:09.48 | unum | you are assuming the price remains flat |
| 20:09.56 | unum | which it may do because of increased demand else where |
| 20:09.59 | unum | it's hard to predict |
| 20:10.31 | Jayce^ | prices go up, pegged to dollar which is losing value with inflation and other means |
| 20:10.47 | Jayce^ | even on surpluses, supplies will get cut |
| 20:11.17 | Jayce^ | producing countries have budgets pegged to barrel value, and they're well under that now, many are getting desperate |
| 20:11.51 | Sargun | doesn't care about increased gas prices |
| 20:15.34 | levi | sjansen: The libertarian contingent of PLUG are going to be prophesying doom after any government initiative. That's just what they do. |
| 20:16.20 | unum | levi: agreed |
| 20:16.40 | sjansen | Inflation fueled gas price increases can hardly be blamed on Clunkers. |
| 20:16.50 | levi | I love the comment about what should be tax-exempt. Food, shelter... and weapons! |
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| 20:17.10 | stderr | AAAAAGH!! THE GOVERNMENT IS COMING TO GET US! QUICK, FLEE ON THIS FEDERALLY MAINTAINED AND RUN HIGHWAY!! |
| 20:17.35 | unum | what gets me is how much my family members complain about the violation of their second ammendment rights, but don't care about their 1st, or 4th ammendment rights |
| 20:18.12 | sjansen | On the top of inflation, though, I'm curious what everyone is doing to prepare for it. I'm fairly certain we're in for some pretty bad inflation soon, and it makes me sad to think about my hard earned savings evaporating. (I don't expect interest rates to compensate for inflation.) |
| 20:18.33 | sjansen | s/top/topic |
| 20:18.58 | levi | sjansen: Why are you fairly certain we're in for bad inflation? |
| 20:19.39 | sjansen | One way or another, we're going to have to print our way out of the federal debt. |
| 20:20.49 | sjansen | And even if that only happens on the long term, I expect we'll overshoot with the recession fighting trigger inflation. We still don't know how to make economies turn on a dime. |
| 20:21.26 | stderr | economists can't even agree on what makes the economy TURN. |
| 20:21.27 | Jayce^ | sjansen: there are only certain things to hedge against inflation, especially larger inflation.. go to zero debt, have storage (necessities), and certain investment types (stable commodities, inflation-hedge, etc) |
| 20:21.39 | levi | Well, I'm certain there will be inflation in the long term, I just have no idea how bad it will be. |
| 20:22.16 | levi | At the moment, we're still in a state of increasing deflation. |
| 20:24.06 | Jayce^ | actually not really, certain segments have had some deflation, but almost always very localized (in time and region) markets, |
| 20:24.51 | Jayce^ | such as food actually is in deflation if you watch from march to now, but it's a very short one, that is already starting to reverse to previous numbers.. |
| 20:25.10 | Jayce^ | which internationally for the last couple years have been from 11 to 25% inflation |
| 20:25.24 | levi | Whatever, I was just going by this: http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/CurrentInflation.asp |
| 20:26.35 | stderr | a lot of economists believe we could be entering a deflationary recession, actually. |
| 20:26.57 | unum | I understood in inflation was intentional |
| 20:27.02 | unum | in order to avoid deflation |
| 20:27.26 | unum | slight and slow inflation is not bad, deflation is very bad |
| 20:27.47 | Jayce^ | not necessarily |
| 20:28.02 | Jayce^ | especially after inflation |
| 20:28.09 | Jayce^ | but either extreme is very bad |
| 20:28.28 | levi | unum: Depends on who you ask. Asking libertarians is going to get you a pretty different answer than if you ask a 'mainstream' economist. |
| 20:28.47 | unum | levi: true, I'm going off what I was told by my professor a long time ago |
| 20:28.51 | stderr | older article http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/29/stagnation-recession-deflation-oped-cx_nr_1030roubini.html |
| 20:28.57 | unum | because when you have deflation you screw your comsumer |
| 20:28.58 | stderr | still relevant, however. |
| 20:29.00 | unum | and they stop buying |
| 20:29.09 | JoshH | my opinion is the same as paul krugman's, whatever it is |
| 20:30.23 | levi | Whether deflation is bad or not largely depends on why it's hapening. |
| 20:30.28 | levi | s/hapening/happening/ |
| 20:32.20 | stderr | whatevs. economics is boring and barely qualifies as science. If the economy fully collapses, I'm looking forward to starting my post-apocalyptic motorcycle gang. |
| 20:32.37 | unum | I'm with stderr on this one |
| 20:32.51 | unum | now I just need to get a loan so I can buy a bike |
| 20:33.25 | stderr | How many libertarian economists does it take to change a lightbulb? |
| 20:33.36 | sjansen | I used to think that. Now I think economics is fascinating, although macro-economics still has a long way to go before it can handle the full complexity of the real world. |
| 20:33.45 | stderr | None, if the government would just leave it alone, it would screw itself in. |
| 20:34.12 | sjansen | At it's heart, econ is about understanding human behavior. A subtle and surprising topic. |
| 20:34.19 | levi | sjansen: I think economies are fascinating, and I wish economics was up to understanding them. |
| 20:35.12 | stderr | I lean towards levi's... erm... position ;P |
| 20:36.00 | levi | sjansen: Austrian Economics is basically built, like an elegant castle, on the top of a model of human behavior. |
| 20:36.16 | maquis | doesn't understand economics... |
| 20:36.34 | sjansen | I tend to prefer micro over macro. Contract negotiation, consumer behavior, etc. |
| 20:36.35 | maquis | instead, i do what i can to avoid as many negative consequences of the economy as possible |
| 20:36.56 | maquis | if you don't got it, don't spend it. if you do got it, you don't got to spend it... |
| 20:37.06 | maquis | and, if you need it, have extra |
| 20:38.06 | stderr | sjansen: yea, nothing wrong with microeconomics |
| 20:38.41 | stderr | the amount of variables that are essentially guessed at the macro level is pretty astounding |
| 20:39.43 | sjansen | A constant problem for bishops at BYU is getting freshman to show up for church on time. Most bishops handle it by giving a topic encouraging right behavior. An econ. professor instead asked that more mirrors be installed in the dorms. Or so the story goes. |
| 20:40.15 | sjansen | s/topic/talk |
| 20:40.16 | maquis | sjansen: s/topic/talk/? |
| 20:40.19 | maquis | ok |
| 20:40.37 | maquis | wait... how'd the mirrors help? just because they weren't able to get ready in time because they were waiting for mirrors |
| 20:40.40 | maquis | ? |
| 20:41.04 | sjansen | yup |
| 20:41.08 | maquis | ah |
| 20:41.26 | maquis | that might be why my freshman ward didn't have a big problem with that... we met at 1:30pm |
| 20:41.27 | stderr | God doesn't like you if you have dirt behind your ears |
| 20:41.43 | JoshH | the byu jokes in the comments on the ice cream shortage story on ksl were hilarious |
| 20:41.49 | JoshH | even though i'd heard most of them |
| 20:42.56 | sjansen | stderr: Not quite. The opposite sex won't notice you if you haven't primped and spritzed correctly. |
| 20:43.26 | JoshH | http://pastebin.com/m67fdff08 |
| 20:44.05 | Jayce^ | explains a lot sjansen :) |
| 20:45.03 | sjansen | JoshH: Haven't spent much time on BYU campus, have you? |
| 20:46.27 | JoshH | nope, but i spend plenty of time around U fans :) |
| 20:46.27 | stderr | man, church as a single's bar. Your guys culture is so odd to me sometimes. |
| 20:46.27 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (i=Migs@205.122.50.21) |
| 20:46.27 | goozbach | stderr: we don't refer to it as a single's bar |
| 20:46.27 | JoshH | single's ward, big difference |
| 20:46.27 | goozbach | it's "Meat Market" |
| 20:46.28 | JoshH | no alcohol |
| 20:46.34 | Jayce^ | but there is jello |
| 20:46.53 | maquis | it's a meat market, and sometime in the first week in any single's ward, you get the ward menu handed out |
| 20:47.08 | goozbach | "ward menu" |
| 20:47.10 | goozbach | LOL |
| 20:47.19 | Sargun | meat market? |
| 20:47.20 | goozbach | I've never heard it called that |
| 20:47.20 | levi | My parents had a whole book of BYU coed jokes. |
| 20:47.25 | maquis | goozbach: what else would you call it? |
| 20:47.32 | goozbach | maquis: that works |
| 20:47.35 | maquis | it's got pictures... and names... |
| 20:47.41 | goozbach | I've just never heard it before |
| 20:47.42 | stderr | "meat market" ?? |
| 20:47.54 | maquis | yeah... meat market |
| 20:47.59 | goozbach | stderr: what do you do at a meat market? |
| 20:48.03 | stderr | facepalms |
| 20:48.09 | goozbach | look at the meat, and make a selection |
| 20:48.11 | maquis | because most of the people are looking for a good chunk of meat... |
| 20:48.24 | JoshH | unum is |
| 20:48.29 | JoshH | that he can marry |
| 20:49.13 | stderr | so you refer to your potential significant others as pieces of meat? |
| 20:49.16 | JoshH | i can't believe anyone goes to a singles ward just to get "meat" though. that's what real bars are for |
| 20:49.17 | stderr | Whew. |
| 20:49.17 | unum | I don't think they typically hand them out now that they are all on line |
| 20:49.45 | stderr | yea, if a singles ward is a meat market, a singles bar is free meat samples |
| 20:49.55 | unum | back when they did hand them out, my ward once put "the menu" at the top |
| 20:50.09 | maquis | JoshH: given that the majority of these types don't go to bars.... |
| 20:50.19 | unum | I chased out our last elder quorum presidency because they were meat seakers |
| 20:50.41 | sjansen | I've never heard it called a meat market. I have heard ward directories called the ward menu. |
| 20:50.52 | maquis | unum: ah... makes sense that they would move to online |
| 20:50.59 | unum | maquis: exactly |
| 20:51.03 | levi | sjansen: Never heard it called a meat market? Wow. |
| 20:51.14 | maquis | i'm surprised that some people haven't heard of the menu... |
| 20:51.19 | maquis | but yeah... |
| 20:51.23 | unum | I've heard all sorts of acronyms for the activiews |
| 20:51.29 | unum | feed and breed |
| 20:51.31 | JoshH | maquis: theyd on't go to bars because they aren't allowed to, and they also aren't allowed to indulge in meat before marriage, so it doesn't make sense they would be at church just for that purpose |
| 20:51.47 | unum | s/acronyms/alternative names |
| 20:51.48 | JoshH | unless their idea of meat is a bride |
| 20:51.48 | unum | can't remember the fhe one |
| 20:52.05 | unum | JoshH: ya that's the case |
| 20:52.07 | levi | JoshH: Yes, 'meat' means 'marriage' in this context. :P |
| 20:52.20 | maquis | JoshH: whether it's "just" that purpose depends on the person... and... generally most are primarily interested in "meat" as "marriage" |
| 20:52.26 | JoshH | people who can't lose their virginity until marriage do funny things, i guess |
| 20:52.49 | JoshH | i like the way the amish handle it |
| 20:52.52 | unum | some single wards are very much about dating and getting married |
| 20:52.56 | unum | others are less so |
| 20:53.07 | JoshH | turn 18, go live out in the real world doing what you want for a year, and if you want to be amish afterward, come back and be amish |
| 20:53.07 | levi | They don't go to church *just* to meet people, they go to a singles ward instead of a family ward because of that, among other reasons. |
| 20:53.12 | unum | the bishop can have a bigg affect on that... |
| 20:53.18 | maquis | unum: definitely true |
| 20:53.34 | maquis | although, in the wards i was in that were less about dating/marriage, they still joked around about it quite a bit |
| 20:53.43 | JoshH | there was a "scandal |
| 20:53.56 | unum | ya going to the family ward listening to men several years younger than me talk about how much they love their wife and kids wasn't fun for me |
| 20:54.01 | JoshH | several years ago about byu students going to vegas to get quickie marriages and divorces, so they could have sex on the wedding night |
| 20:54.03 | maquis | ie, for the freshman wards, where most of the guys are premies, you still get a lot of joking around about dating/marriage simply because... |
| 20:54.08 | sjansen | The more often people move, the higher the marriage rate. The lower the turn over rate, the lower the marriage rate. |
| 20:54.12 | JoshH | i remember reading about it in the tribune |
| 20:54.21 | levi | JoshH: What I mean is, they go to church because they want to go to church, but they select a singles ward because it's an easy way to meet lots of eligible single girls. |
| 20:54.23 | unum | JoshH: I couldn't find it there |
| 20:54.27 | unum | I've looked |
| 20:54.33 | unum | it's not in their archive |
| 20:54.35 | JoshH | ya levi, i know |
| 20:55.00 | JoshH | unum: i have vivid memories of reading about it in the paper edition when i was in my late teens or early 20's, so like 8-10 years ago |
| 20:55.09 | levi | (or eligible single guys, for the girls) |
| 20:55.13 | sjansen | JoshH: And it was made very clear to us as freshman that doing so was grounds for excommunication. |
| 20:55.22 | JoshH | oh, i'm sure |
| 20:55.35 | JoshH | even though it's technically within the rules |
| 20:55.57 | JoshH | also, i thought it was lame when that BYU girl on the real world got kicked out |
| 20:56.05 | JoshH | it was just a TV show, not like she was just shacking up or anything |
| 20:56.18 | sjansen | I continue to go to a singles ward mostly because it is less tedious than being ignored in a family ward. |
| 20:56.23 | unum | she chose to go there |
| 20:56.28 | levi | Going to a singles ward is also a handy way to avoid serious church callings. :P |
| 20:56.32 | unum | wouldn't have lasted long at byu anything |
| 20:56.45 | unum | levi: you haven't been to my singles ward ;P |
| 20:57.18 | maquis | levi: in my experience, a young single person is likely to get a more serious calling in a singles ward than in a family ward |
| 20:57.19 | unum | our elders quorum presidency is made up of the guys not currently undergoing church disicpline |
| 20:57.23 | levi | Well, it didn't really work for me in the long run, as I ended up as an EQ Pres. But if you stay under the radar... |
| 20:57.23 | sjansen | JoshH: She was in violation of a very specific requirement in the honor code. Not like she could claim she wasn't warned. |
| 20:57.40 | JoshH | i feel like she was in violation of the letter of the code, but not the spirit of it |
| 20:58.02 | maquis | JoshH: that doesn't change the fact that she chose to violate a requirement of the honor code, for which she knew the consequence |
| 20:58.12 | JoshH | the code is clearly meant to discourage men and women from living together, but i think in the case of a TV show, they could have been more understanding |
| 20:58.21 | JoshH | it just shows that they are hardcore sticklers |
| 20:58.27 | maquis | JoshH: that's not the only point of the honor code |
| 20:58.31 | sjansen | The letter was about the spirit. |
| 20:58.47 | levi | I think they were *less* understanding because of the TV show. |
| 20:58.48 | eggyknap | Should is surprise anyone that BYU administrators are "hardcore sticklers"? :) |
| 20:59.22 | JoshH | not a surprise, but just another bullet point about how non-fun byu is for people who might not be too zealous about the religion |
| 20:59.32 | maquis | and if they make an exception because it's "just a tv show", then how can they continue to uphold the rule for everyone else |
| 20:59.44 | maquis | JoshH: well, if they feel that way, then there's plenty of other schools in the US |
| 20:59.55 | JoshH | true, there are |
| 20:59.57 | maquis | personally, i had a lot of fun at byu |
| 21:00.20 | levi | JoshH: Lots of stuff goes on at BYU that would be very frowned upon by the Honor Code Office. |
| 21:00.27 | Jayce^ | meh, I went to Ricks, BYU had nothing on there |
| 21:00.28 | maquis | in fact, the one year i wasn't having as much fun was the year i was stuck in an apartment with a bunch of girls who kept trying to find ways to get around all the rules |
| 21:00.33 | JoshH | my opinion is that byu should relax a bit and try catering to a wider variety of students, since not all mormons are that extreme, but they can of course do what they want |
| 21:00.42 | maquis | JoshH: i disagree |
| 21:01.10 | eggyknap | BYU has no problem getting enough students to fill itself to overflowing, without trying to cater to anyone else. |
| 21:01.14 | levi | JoshH: BYU doesn't need to cater to a wider variety. They already have to turn away tons of people who would be just fine living by the rules. |
| 21:01.17 | JoshH | you can disagree, that's fine |
| 21:01.36 | maquis | JoshH: i would've had a much better time if i hadn't had to deal with roommates who honestly shouldn't've been there |
| 21:01.54 | JoshH | really? what was so bad about them? |
| 21:02.05 | sjansen | I preferred the strict atmosphere. I appreciated not needing to deal with drunk roommates. I appreciated not being woken up by the sound of a bed banging against the wall. I appreciated having a quiet apartment on Sunday. Etc. |
| 21:02.26 | maquis | JoshH: they were constantly having problems sticking to numerous things in the honor code; and they just generally made my life miserable because i wasn't like them |
| 21:03.26 | JoshH | see, i personally think one of the great things about college is getting to know people who aren't like you, and learning how to be friends with a diverse group |
| 21:03.46 | JoshH | but i am the kind of person who hates rules and policies, and i prefer a free, open environment where anything goes |
| 21:04.02 | maquis | JoshH: i had plenty of opportunities to go to schools where i'd be with a bunch of people who have different standards from me |
| 21:04.04 | JoshH | and i'm also not religious, so i don't think that people get punished later on for having fun in life |
| 21:04.13 | JoshH | so that's part of it |
| 21:04.25 | maquis | i made a conscious choice that i wanted to be with people who would have similar standards |
| 21:04.30 | maquis | and i'm glad i did |
| 21:04.41 | sjansen | That happens at BYU too. One of my good friends from BYU is a Muslim from Bangladesh. I'm pretty sure he was there because he appreciated the same things I mentioned. |
| 21:05.37 | JoshH | yes, i know that not everyone at byu is white, american, etc |
| 21:05.45 | maquis | i didn't have to worry about drunk roommates... generally, in the evenings, if i wanted things quieter, my roommates were pretty understanding about it... i didn't have to deal with the smell of cigarette smoke (which makes me hideously sick) |
| 21:06.04 | unum | maquis: most places have rules about those issues |
| 21:06.06 | JoshH | smoking is banned in dorms nearly everywhere afaik |
| 21:06.09 | Jayce^ | hehe, let's talk about strong smells around the prego lady... :) |
| 21:06.14 | unum | alcohol is banned from most |
| 21:06.15 | JoshH | and drinking is also technically against the rules |
| 21:06.23 | JoshH | you can get kicked out of the U dorms if you have alcohol in there |
| 21:06.25 | sjansen | I grew up in ND. The next nearest Mormon family was 30 miles away. It was nice not to be a freak for awhile. |
| 21:06.27 | JoshH | though lots of people did get away with it |
| 21:06.31 | maquis | JoshH: doesn't have to be occurring in the dorms... people who have smoked, if they come close to me, can make me sick |
| 21:06.42 | JoshH | smokers are a dying breed anyway, literally |
| 21:06.53 | maquis | JoshH: i've had problems with cigarette smoke making me sick my entire life, but yes... being pregnant doesn't help |
| 21:07.09 | maquis | er... that was to Jayce^ |
| 21:07.13 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 21:07.33 | Jayce^ | my biggest problem with going to Ricks, was it was a stepping stool for getting me to move to UT... I'll never forgive it for that |
| 21:07.45 | sjansen | And now your trapped. |
| 21:08.10 | levi | I swear I'm going to move out of Utah someday. :) |
| 21:08.45 | tyce | levi: I think I've been saying that same thing for 7 years now. |
| 21:08.54 | JoshH | you don't like UT? |
| 21:08.55 | levi | I kind of like it here, but I've been moving all my life and I've been stationary for too long. |
| 21:08.56 | Jayce^ | yeah, I keep catching flack for old statements limiting myself to 5 years max here |
| 21:09.07 | JoshH | i figured you for one of those guys who would never leave it |
| 21:09.09 | Jayce^ | I miss water and trees |
| 21:09.24 | JoshH | where are you from? |
| 21:09.25 | maquis | Jayce^: come home to seattle! |
| 21:09.44 | levi | I don't know if my wife could handle the rainy season in the PWN. |
| 21:09.56 | maquis | we've got water and trees... and recently, semi-utah-ish weather |
| 21:10.06 | Jayce^ | yeah, my wife is a socal woman, and can't stand the weather up there for that long.. |
| 21:10.10 | maquis | (hotter summers and colder winters) |
| 21:10.32 | levi | I could really deal with the SoCal climate, but not so much the cost of living. |
| 21:10.41 | JoshH | i could handle a few places |
| 21:10.59 | JoshH | i do like SLC, and a couple of the east side suburbs, but i'd rather move out of utah than live in most other cities here |
| 21:11.24 | levi | I kind of miss the Virginia/North Carolina/Maryland areas I lived in, too. |
| 21:11.32 | JoshH | i'd prefer portland or denver (or fort collins) |
| 21:11.35 | unum | I'd like to try Boston |
| 21:11.44 | unum | or DC area |
| 21:11.44 | JoshH | but i could also be happy in seattle, the bay, socal, or phoenix |
| 21:11.48 | JoshH | probably nowhere in the east though |
| 21:11.49 | Jayce^ | montana or ID is probably next for me |
| 21:11.49 | sjansen | I'd like Portland or Dallas. |
| 21:11.56 | JoshH | actually i do like dallas, i lived there for a year |
| 21:12.03 | unum | I haven't really like my little experience in seattle |
| 21:12.07 | unum | it's ok |
| 21:12.12 | levi | I lived in El Paso for a long time. What a hole. :P |
| 21:12.16 | JoshH | the city is great, but with neither mountains nor coastline, it's not ideal |
| 21:12.17 | Jayce^ | love the seattle weather |
| 21:12.19 | tyce | seattle ftw |
| 21:12.27 | unum | the weather is nice |
| 21:12.30 | sjansen | Fargo! |
| 21:12.52 | levi | sjansen: You betcha! |
| 21:12.53 | JoshH | i think if you enjoyed going to bars and having good microbrews on tap, you would like seattle more |
| 21:13.03 | unum | probably |
| 21:13.12 | unum | I went to a wine tasting when I was there |
| 21:13.22 | JoshH | i don't like wine too much, but i can appreciate it |
| 21:13.36 | unum | but ya not being into alcohol I think adds to my dislike of seattle |
| 21:13.39 | unum | too many foodies |
| 21:13.46 | sjansen | All alcohol smells foul to me. |
| 21:13.53 | Jayce^ | the ever-present coffee smell |
| 21:14.21 | maquis | Jayce^: montana's really nice... i'd love to live there... |
| 21:14.25 | Jayce^ | I went on my mission to the largest coffee producing region in the world, and smelled less coffee than I did at home |
| 21:14.29 | maquis | Jayce^: ugh... coffee smell... |
| 21:14.34 | JoshH | the great beer scene is one of the main reasons i like portland and oregon so much |
| 21:14.37 | Jayce^ | maquis: careful, you gotta pick the right part of MT. |
| 21:14.41 | maquis | Jayce^: true |
| 21:14.49 | maquis | i've been to big fork / whitefish area |
| 21:14.50 | JoshH | for non-drinkers though, utah is pretty tough to beat, i think |
| 21:14.52 | maquis | and loved those |
| 21:15.00 | levi | I was born in MT. |
| 21:15.16 | JoshH | it is a great state, i just hate the politics and regulations so much |
| 21:15.29 | unum | we love Oregon for our office. unemployment so bad, the people there will work for nothing |
| 21:15.41 | sjansen | Montana is beautiful, but I've had enough northern winters. |
| 21:15.49 | JoshH | i'd love montana if i wanted a more rural life |
| 21:16.04 | unum | I like my city slicker life |
| 21:16.07 | levi | I love the Utah proximity to beautiful mountains, but I'm not crazy about the weather here. |
| 21:16.17 | Jayce^ | eagle mountain is getting too big for me, I need to go more rural :) |
| 21:16.25 | unum | ya the extremes in the desert are awful |
| 21:16.37 | unum | Jayce^: I hear you're going to have grocery store soon |
| 21:16.43 | unum | that's big time |
| 21:16.44 | levi | I need more spring and fall, less winter and summer. |
| 21:17.00 | Jayce^ | yeah, that wal-mart is in spitting distance now |
| 21:17.09 | levi | unum: He just wants to get farther way from Super Dell. ;) |
| 21:17.10 | JoshH | the main reason i couldn't handle a small town is crappy broadband, or none at all |
| 21:17.19 | sjansen | Whatcha talkin'bout, Willis? I love UT's mild weather. Just enough variety to avoid being boring. |
| 21:17.23 | Jayce^ | levi: that's a pretty good reason for *anybody* |
| 21:17.27 | JoshH | i want to move out of slc and get utopia, in murray or eastern midvale |
| 21:17.48 | unum | murray's not bad |
| 21:17.51 | unum | I really like it here |
| 21:17.56 | unum | my state rep is the coolest :) |
| 21:18.09 | unum | I need to go help him transfer data from his old computer.... |
| 21:18.31 | JoshH | basically everything i do in town is either downtown or in a sort of L shaped area extending east to the U area and then south a bit |
| 21:18.48 | JoshH | so if i loved down there for utopia, i'd have to drive kinda further than i'd like whenever i did anything |
| 21:19.01 | unum | ya |
| 21:19.10 | unum | I have a friend who says she lives downtown for the same reason |
| 21:19.20 | unum | yet.... in her case it's not at all true |
| 21:19.38 | unum | in fact just last saturday she showered at my place because her place was incovinient to get to |
| 21:19.48 | tyce | *irssi |
| 21:19.53 | Jayce^ | not like that gets you a lot, you could be like neybar, his neighbors have utopia, and they won't wire his house |
| 21:20.01 | JoshH | jerks |
| 21:20.22 | unum | "but I like to be able to walk to the places I go", "where do you walk to?", "when I run...", "I live a half mile from the jordon river trail" |
| 21:20.33 | sjansen | Good to know. I've been looking at Murray. Make sure it's already wired. |
| 21:20.34 | JoshH | i actually did offer on a midvale shortsale that had utopia already installed, but the banks decided to sue the owner's husband since he has the income to pay for it, even though he's not on the loan |
| 21:20.36 | unum | they won't wire my condo yet |
| 21:20.41 | JoshH | so it's been months of no update |
| 21:21.03 | JoshH | but i did actually hear that the husband went down to mexico, heh |
| 22:10.50 | levi | Heh. I went to the page for the company that's doing the '100mpg Hummer'. |
| 22:11.10 | levi | The technology looks cool, but WTF are they doing putting a 2wd drivetrain in a Hummer? |
| 22:11.29 | levi | It's like the final emasculation of the Hummer name. |
| 22:12.48 | levi | Apparently the battery packs can push the beast a whole 40 miles before the engine has to kick in to start supplying electricity. |
| 22:13.52 | levi | Hmm, maybe it is a 4wd. |
| 22:14.04 | Jayce^ | they have 4wd versions, yes |
| 22:14.11 | Jayce^ | and 40 is as much as the volt, so that's pretty good |
| 22:14.32 | levi | The pictures don't look like it, but the text says so. |
| 22:17.37 | levi | The big question... how much does one of those drivetrains cost? |
| 22:18.19 | Jayce^ | yeah, I'm not even going to bother asking that one right now.. think of it like a tesla :) |
| 22:19.03 | levi | Given the big banks of lithium batteries, it can't be anywhere near affordable. :) |
| 22:19.14 | levi | That's the big challege right now. |
| 22:22.01 | levi | Gotta love the torque graphs of electric motors. |
| 22:23.24 | sjansen | 0 to twist steel like a pretzel in .5 seconds? |
| 22:25.31 | levi | Yeah, you start out with peak torque, and it holds steady for a long time. |
| 22:26.20 | levi | I imagine stomping on the pedal has a similar effect as dropping the clutch on a high-powered sports car. |
| 22:47.11 | levi | Yay for knee-jerk informed-sounding replies that are based off faulty assumptions. |
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| 23:08.42 | sjansen | Main screen turn on? |
| 23:08.54 | levi | Apparently he came to his senses while I was writing another reply. |
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| 23:57.03 | maquis | levi: ? |