| 00:20.14 | maquis | anyone around who can help with a really weird passwordless ssh problem? |
| 00:23.09 | whiteley | won't know unless you ask. :) |
| 00:23.34 | maquis | so, i've used ssh-keygen to create a set of keys on both machines |
| 00:23.53 | maquis | and i've used ssh-copy-id to send the pub-keys into the authorized_keys file for the opposite machine |
| 00:24.33 | whiteley | that's a neat trick. didn't know about ssh-copy-id. |
| 00:24.35 | maquis | i've verified that the authorized_keys files have the correct public keys... (ie, that machine A has the rsa_id.pub for machine B in its authorized_keys, and vice versa) |
| 00:24.48 | maquis | i also restarted ssh after doing that |
| 00:25.05 | whiteley | shouldn't have to restart ssh. |
| 00:25.08 | maquis | but it's still prompting for my login password when I try to ssh |
| 00:25.40 | whiteley | try ssh -v |
| 00:26.13 | maquis | so, i have some interesting sections when i do that |
| 00:26.30 | maquis | debug1: Found key in /home/tuxgirl/.ssh/known_hosts:1 |
| 00:26.32 | whiteley | could be a permissions problem with authorized_keys or ~/.ssh dir. |
| 00:26.35 | maquis | debug1: ssh_rsa_verify: signature correct |
| 00:26.40 | maquis | then it has: |
| 00:26.54 | whiteley | that's your client verifying the server's key. |
| 00:27.25 | maquis | SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS sent, SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS received, SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_REQUEST sent, SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_ACCEPT received |
| 00:27.43 | maquis | but then it switches to: Authentications that can continue: publickey,password |
| 00:28.19 | maquis | and a little later, it switches to trying to find /home/tuxgirl/.ssh/identity, and it can't find that |
| 00:28.28 | maquis | then: |
| 00:28.43 | maquis | Offering public key: /home/tuxgirl/.ssh/id_rsa, send_pubkey_test |
| 00:28.50 | maquis | whiteley: does this make any sense to you? |
| 00:29.02 | whiteley | yes. then what? |
| 00:29.13 | maquis | we sent a publickey packet, wait for reply |
| 00:29.19 | maquis | Authentications that can continue: publickey,password |
| 00:29.38 | maquis | then, it tries to use dsa (which i don't have setup, since my keys are rsa), and then it switches to password |
| 00:29.56 | whiteley | maquis: paste the whole thing into some pastebin? |
| 00:30.00 | maquis | ok |
| 00:30.34 | whiteley | maquis: are both hosts yours? Is one or both ancient? |
| 00:30.40 | maquis | http://pastebin.com/m73922b7b |
| 00:30.53 | maquis | whiteley: both are mine, and they should both be reasonably new |
| 00:30.59 | maquis | i can get the version of ssh from each |
| 00:31.31 | maquis | one is: OpenSSH_5.1p1 Debian-5+b1, OpenSSL 0.9.8g 19 Oct 2007 |
| 00:31.50 | maquis | the other's the same |
| 00:34.07 | whiteley | in sshd_config: PubkeyAuthentication yes ? |
| 00:34.38 | maquis | [imhotep tuxgirl] cat /etc/ssh/sshd_config | grep Pub 255 |
| 00:34.41 | maquis | PubkeyAuthentication yes |
| 00:35.28 | maquis | (for both boxes) |
| 00:35.39 | whiteley | anything in /var/log/auth.log (server side)? |
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| 00:37.48 | maquis | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:37.55 | whiteley | yep. |
| 00:38.11 | maquis | ah... interesting |
| 00:38.20 | maquis | wonder how that ended up writable? |
| 00:39.00 | whiteley | $HOME and ~/.ssh should be 0755, or more secure. authorized_keys should be 0600 |
| 00:39.32 | blendmaster1024 | ive wondered for a while |
| 00:39.54 | blendmaster1024 | what is the leading zero? i though pile bits were only 3 digits long |
| 00:39.57 | blendmaster1024 | file* |
| 00:40.09 | maquis | why does it care what $HOME is? |
| 00:41.48 | maquis | whiteley: looks like that was it |
| 00:41.50 | maquis | thanks! |
| 00:43.57 | whiteley | blendmaster1024: octal |
| 00:44.09 | blendmaster1024 | right |
| 00:44.15 | blendmaster1024 | why the eading 0? |
| 00:44.23 | blendmaster1024 | i thought it was ugo |
| 00:44.27 | blendmaster1024 | ### |
| 00:44.27 | maquis | octal #s can be recognized by the fact they start with 0 |
| 00:44.32 | blendmaster1024 | ohhhh |
| 00:44.33 | whiteley | blendmaster1024: that indicates octal. |
| 00:44.48 | blendmaster1024 | so the leading zero is just a zero... oh |
| 00:45.05 | whiteley | maquis: even if ~/.ssh is 0755, if $HOME is 777, another user can delete/replace ~/.ssh |
| 00:45.07 | blendmaster1024 | that's also wht it doesnt make sense as 1+2+4 |
| 00:45.12 | blendmaster1024 | ok |
| 00:45.15 | blendmaster1024 | thx :) |
| 00:45.21 | maquis | whiteley: oh... |
| 00:45.30 | maquis | i guess that makes sense... |
| 00:45.39 | maquis | would that work, though? |
| 00:45.56 | whiteley | would what work? |
| 00:46.04 | maquis | oh... i guess you could rename the dir |
| 00:46.18 | maquis | but i don't think you could rm -rf it, if the files inside aren't writable, right? |
| 00:47.39 | whiteley | maquis: correct. can't remove it if contents don't allow, but can mv it. |
| 00:47.58 | whiteley | maquis: and create a new one, with different authorized_keys. |
| 00:49.27 | maquis | yeah... ok... that makes sense |
| 00:53.32 | maquis | gets her automated backup script started |
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| 01:18.57 | goozbach | blendmaster1024: the leading digit is for special permissions |
| 01:19.14 | blendmaster1024 | oh |
| 01:19.17 | goozbach | ie Set GID, Set UID, or sticky |
| 01:19.27 | blendmaster1024 | oh |
| 01:19.35 | blendmaster1024 | thats where u set those |
| 01:19.53 | goozbach | chmod 1777 is the same as chmod +rwxs |
| 01:20.39 | goozbach | ohh not exactly |
| 01:21.20 | goozbach | chmod 1777 is the same as chmod a=rwxt |
| 01:25.55 | Sargun | ~seen Tene |
| 01:25.57 | ibot | tene is currently on #utah (11d 1h 40m 27s). Has said a total of 38 messages. Is idling for 2d 17h 43m 10s, last said: 'http://gist.github.com/128499 -- subclassing Ruby from Perl 6.'. |
| 01:30.47 | blendmaster1024 | cool |
| 01:48.11 | Tene | Sargun: what's up? |
| 01:49.31 | Sargun | Tene, did you purchase a palm pre |
| 01:49.51 | Tene | Sargun: not yet. maybe in a week or two |
| 01:50.09 | Sargun | I see you joined #webos-internals |
| 01:50.16 | Tene | Yes. |
| 01:50.19 | Sargun | interested in homebrew? |
| 01:50.26 | Tene | I am. |
| 01:50.54 | Sargun | the palm pre's homebrew capabilities are amazin |
| 01:52.12 | Tene | You can compile arbitrary C for PreÌ, right? |
| 01:55.18 | Tene | I'm kinda curious about installing Parrot on it. |
| 01:55.19 | Sargun | yeah |
| 01:55.26 | Sargun | didn't you see our wiki? |
| 01:55.43 | Tene | I did, but I've been far too busy over the past few days. |
| 01:55.56 | Tene | I don't quite remember anything I read there. |
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| 16:55.21 | harleypig | ibot: 42 |
| 16:55.21 | ibot | hmm... 42 is the answer to life the universe and everything, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/the_answer_to_life,_the_universe,_and_everything |
| 16:55.29 | harleypig | ibot: monkeys |
| 16:55.29 | ibot | This problem, like many others in the computer industry, can be solved by the application of monkeys. |
| 17:01.20 | Jayce^ | ~harleypig |
| 17:01.20 | ibot | methinks harleypig is learned how to read @ 16:55 on 2006-10-18, or the local RMS figure, or a PITA!. Hagrid's stunt double |
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| 17:16.57 | tensai | rsimpkins, Jayce^: glad to hear the server is working |
| 17:20.00 | sjansen | ~seen elg |
| 17:20.03 | ibot | elg <n=fugalh@c-76-113-96-161.hsd1.nm.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 2d 22h 44m 13s ago, saying: 'this seems like a nice compromise'. |
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| 18:24.04 | rsimpkins | tensai: Thank you very much for passing it along to Jason so I could get it. |
| 18:24.33 | rsimpkins | tensai: Had a little trouble with the CD-ROM (timeouts), but the rest of the setup went super smooth. |
| 18:25.41 | tensai | that's really good to hear |
| 18:26.33 | rsimpkins | tensai: My biggest beef at the moment is the postfix that ships with RHEL/CentOS is crappy. |
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| 18:47.09 | levi | So, anyone else notice that CW-30 disappeared from its normal spot when the digital transition happened? |
| 18:51.20 | blendmaster1024 | no |
| 18:51.41 | blendmaster1024 | just so i can sound uninformed, lol... what is CW-30? |
| 18:52.08 | levi | A TV station. |
| 18:52.34 | levi | KUCW are the call letters, IIRC. |
| 18:53.56 | levi | It's the station that's currently running the remastered Star Trek TOS episodes, among other random syndicated shows. |
| 18:54.46 | JoshH | i only see the channels on my directv favorites list |
| 18:55.52 | levi | I'm talking about over-the-air reception anyway. I imagine it's still right where it's supposed to be in cable and dish lineups. |
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| 19:18.17 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: There? |
| 19:18.57 | unum | "...the Intermountain Health in Salt Lake City, where high-quality care is being provided at a cost well below average. These are islands of excellence that we need to make the standard in our health care system. " <- quote by president obama |
| 19:20.14 | blendmaster1024 | yeah |
| 19:20.17 | blendmaster1024 | kind of cool |
| 19:20.35 | blendmaster1024 | also sad, that it's going to be just more government health programs |
| 19:20.46 | blendmaster1024 | broken idea |
| 19:22.32 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: yeah |
| 19:22.56 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: I think I may have found a backscatter bug in postfix. wheeeee. |
| 19:23.06 | rsimpkins | Working with the postfix devs at the moment to confirm. |
| 19:23.52 | Jayce^ | it's not in my everydns account, I'm thinking hans has it |
| 19:24.14 | Jayce^ | I could repoint to another dns if you want |
| 19:25.15 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Would you prefer we just transfer it, so you don't have to pay any more? |
| 19:25.44 | Jayce^ | I'd be fine with that, of course I do get these emails about people who want to buy it from me.... :-p |
| 19:25.47 | unum | blendmaster1024: I don't think you read the speech |
| 19:26.26 | blendmaster1024 | it sounds cool not governmentish |
| 19:26.44 | blendmaster1024 | but government health is what he's working towards |
| 19:26.47 | Jayce^ | blendmaster1024: you must be new here... unum is very *pro* that kind of thing :) |
| 19:26.50 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Can you get me the auth code? |
| 19:27.01 | blendmaster1024 | lol |
| 19:27.20 | blendmaster1024 | where can the speech be found now? |
| 19:27.30 | blendmaster1024 | i saw it but lost the link lol |
| 19:27.40 | blendmaster1024 | and i dont know what to google lolol |
| 19:28.47 | Jayce^ | sent |
| 19:29.15 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Thanks sir. |
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| 19:30.25 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: Put in the order. Might take a few days. |
| 19:30.52 | Jayce^ | and by transferring this, you resolve to not use it for anything other than the linux group, etc, etc etc.. |
| 19:32.04 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: What?!? I thought I could use it for world domination! |
| 19:32.11 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 19:32.20 | Jayce^ | that's what we do everyday pinky |
| 19:32.47 | Heartsbane | Is god angry with you http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6819386 |
| 19:32.48 | brac | [ksl.com - Lightning strikes Oquirrh Mountain temple] |
| 19:32.58 | rsimpkins | ha!! I stumped the postfix devs! woot! |
| 19:33.39 | Heartsbane | or should it read Moroni does blackface? |
| 19:34.40 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: hit up dan, he's a postfix geek |
| 19:34.51 | Jayce^ | and it's always fun to see him stumped.. |
| 19:34.54 | rsimpkins | Jayce^: I've got the devs stumped on this one. It's a doosey. |
| 19:35.00 | unum | http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-06-15-obama-speech-text_N.htm |
| 19:35.03 | rsimpkins | I'll totally get him. :) |
| 19:35.03 | brac | [President Obama's speech to American Medical Association - USATODAY.com] |
| 19:35.07 | Jayce^ | yeah, but watching dan is more fun |
| 19:35.13 | blendmaster1024 | thx unum |
| 19:35.31 | Jayce^ | even more frustrating, when he solves it |
| 19:35.31 | rsimpkins | Oh, he's not in today maybe? I don't see him. |
| 19:35.33 | blendmaster1024 | lo |
| 19:35.35 | blendmaster1024 | lol* |
| 19:36.06 | unum | Jayce^: when you can't get insuarance the idea of having it is nice :) |
| 19:36.43 | Jayce^ | unum: should have been at our discussion on it at plug |
| 19:37.01 | Jayce^ | i've not been able to get it before... |
| 19:37.46 | unum | was it you that was telling me about your wife being on the state plan? |
| 19:37.48 | Jayce^ | and I've had socialized/nationalized health care too |
| 19:37.55 | Jayce^ | no, probably neybar |
| 19:38.38 | unum | it will be interesting to see what happens. things must be really bad else where if our system is the model system |
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| 19:39.35 | rsimpkins | We've done too much mucking around for the 'free market' to be called free any more. More like "free, with restrictions" which is an oxymoron. |
| 19:40.07 | rsimpkins | You can do anything you want, so long as you do everything we say. :) |
| 19:40.15 | Jayce^ | unum: ours is amazingly better, it's the ways we have to pay for it, and are beholden to limited choices by external forces that sucks |
| 19:40.23 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins was there for the discussion too :) |
| 19:41.08 | JoshH | yes, the quality of the care in our country is good |
| 19:41.14 | JoshH | affording it is the problem, especially for major thigns |
| 19:41.23 | blendmaster1024 | yeah |
| 19:41.44 | rsimpkins | That's why I fly to India for all my major surgeries. ;-) |
| 19:41.52 | blendmaster1024 | funny, it and i know that ... must listen to my parents too much lol |
| 19:41.56 | JoshH | for certain things, that's actually a fine idea |
| 19:42.02 | blendmaster1024 | 14 and i know that i mena |
| 19:42.40 | unum | by "ours" I mean utah |
| 19:42.54 | Jayce^ | rsimpkins: nah, india and china are just for the parts :) |
| 19:42.58 | blendmaster1024 | yeah not only utah but ihc in specific |
| 19:43.16 | unum | ya |
| 19:43.30 | blendmaster1024 | wher emy dad works :) |
| 19:43.35 | Jayce^ | unum: actually, you shouldn't be surprised, per capita we have a very high number of quality dr's and similar positions |
| 19:43.39 | rsimpkins | Quite a few nurses know (including my wife and mother in law) do not appreciate IHC in any way. |
| 19:43.42 | JoshH | when i read brandon stout's email about the costs he would have faced if he had slightly different insurance, i was boggling |
| 19:43.52 | JoshH | that's what's unacceptable about our system, imo |
| 19:44.22 | blendmaster1024 | something that scares me about this new system he wants to make is that he wants "All of that information should be stored securely in a private medical record" |
| 19:44.37 | blendmaster1024 | what's "securley" |
| 19:44.49 | blendmaster1024 | they dont know how to make things secure |
| 19:45.09 | Jayce^ | blendmaster1024: they'll have the TSA take care of security :-p |
| 19:45.19 | blendmaster1024 | it should be encrypted with two keys - the doctor's and your's |
| 19:45.52 | blendmaster1024 | or maybe just yours |
| 19:46.17 | blendmaster1024 | and then what about backups? lose that info and it makes no difference that it was electronic |
| 19:46.44 | JoshH | specifics can be worked out |
| 19:47.17 | JoshH | records can be lost the way it is now, and sometimes are |
| 19:47.19 | blendmaster1024 | but they have a history of being worked out wrong... look how they fixed piracy: the dmca |
| 19:47.26 | Jayce^ | or just keep the fedgov out of it :) |
| 19:47.49 | JoshH | heh you sound like one of those blanding artifact hunters |
| 19:48.07 | blendmaster1024 | hoo mee? |
| 19:48.53 | JoshH | no, Jayce^ |
| 19:49.08 | JoshH | i've just read a lot about their "hate for the feds" lately |
| 19:49.26 | blendmaster1024 | yeah the government should "fix" healthcare if they know how and then back out |
| 19:49.50 | JoshH | why? |
| 19:49.52 | blendmaster1024 | dont want no socialized healthcare |
| 19:50.01 | JoshH | should they also get out of running the military and the fire department? |
| 19:50.18 | blendmaster1024 | no - those would break if they were private |
| 19:50.27 | JoshH | healthcare is private, and broken |
| 19:50.30 | blendmaster1024 | but since healthcare doesn't break when it's private |
| 19:50.32 | Jayce^ | JoshH: fire dept, yes... military no, that's one of the things they are supposed to do |
| 19:50.39 | Jayce^ | though they've morphed that in many ways |
| 19:50.40 | blendmaster1024 | it just gets broken, period |
| 19:51.01 | blendmaster1024 | lol they need to fix the "broken, period" and then back out |
| 19:51.37 | JoshH | i just don't think healthcare needs to be a for profit business, especially with such absurd costs |
| 19:51.57 | JoshH | i had my hands x-ray'd recently, and my insurance had to pay over 300 bucks |
| 19:52.12 | Jayce^ | JoshH: actual healthcare costs are much less than charged, it's insurance and legal fees that push *so* much of it.. |
| 19:52.15 | JoshH | just to take a few pictures and have a guy spend 3 minutes looking at them |
| 19:52.38 | Jayce^ | reducing that interference would bring things down to more manageable levels, and allow for markets to start actually being able to do something about it |
| 19:52.38 | JoshH | but if healthcare was affordable in the first place, we wouldn't need insurance |
| 19:53.09 | Jayce^ | as neybar was quoting last week, insurance should be just that, insurance for calamities, not routine services |
| 19:53.10 | blendmaster1024 | yeah |
| 19:53.18 | JoshH | ya |
| 19:53.48 | blendmaster1024 | and if the for-profit people didn't try to juice you they would probably make more money - more people could afford |
| 19:53.53 | Jayce^ | but then when the insurance companies and govt get in there, problems happen |
| 19:53.58 | blendmaster1024 | yeah |
| 19:54.00 | blendmaster1024 | that too |
| 19:54.04 | blendmaster1024 | well that more |
| 19:55.33 | JoshH | there's no logical reason for a small bottle of pills to cost hundreds of dollars, so you need insurance to pay for them, and the insurance company needs to make that back somehow |
| 19:55.41 | JoshH | then a generic version comes out, and that's dirt cheap |
| 19:56.05 | Jayce^ | JoshH: when it comes to pills, one of the big problems is that people in the US subsidize the costs of the rest of the world on them |
| 19:56.06 | blendmaster1024 | well there is silly |
| 19:56.11 | blendmaster1024 | if it was hard to make them |
| 19:56.33 | JoshH | true, i don't know how to fix that one |
| 19:56.33 | blendmaster1024 | if it wasnt then they should not cost much |
| 19:56.38 | Jayce^ | when the EU mandates a low cost on medicine, they just transferred the difference back to people who would pay |
| 19:56.47 | blendmaster1024 | lol sad |
| 19:57.08 | JoshH | i think some R&D should be publicly funded, so drug companies don't need to charge an arm and a leg to make their money back, but you probably disagree with me there |
| 19:57.25 | Jayce^ | and we mandate patent lifetimes so that the companies can recoup the costs incurred during our regulated R&D time.. |
| 19:57.35 | JoshH | patents need major reform |
| 19:57.50 | blendmaster1024 | well think about it this way: if someone has no health problems and they make little money do you think they would like |
| 19:57.57 | Jayce^ | I dont' think it should be publicly funded, and I do agree that regulation there is something we need to keep, but we gotta change some stuff |
| 19:58.05 | blendmaster1024 | the little money they make being taken away for someone else's pills? |
| 19:58.17 | blendmaster1024 | no they would not |
| 19:58.17 | Jayce^ | not like it matters though, medical R&D by private companies is almost a thing of the past |
| 19:58.25 | Jayce^ | just look at pfizers recent actions |
| 19:58.26 | blendmaster1024 | it should not be |
| 19:58.35 | blendmaster1024 | it should be private |
| 19:58.42 | blendmaster1024 | because of what i just said |
| 19:58.44 | JoshH | i do think that a national health system, if created, should have higher prices in some way for risky lifestyles |
| 19:58.51 | blendmaster1024 | the us charges people 40% in taxes |
| 19:59.02 | JoshH | smokers should have to pay much more for lung cancer treatment, for example |
| 19:59.20 | JoshH | or if a guy who eats 5 pizzas a day needs heart surgery, he should have to pay extra |
| 19:59.25 | blendmaster1024 | well if they dont try to stop that is |
| 19:59.31 | blendmaster1024 | if a smoker got forced into it and is trying to stop, that's different |
| 19:59.41 | blendmaster1024 | yes |
| 19:59.44 | Jayce^ | and yet what is the value in a state system that undercuts private industry... just look at FL's hurricane insurance industry.. |
| 19:59.48 | blendmaster1024 | you should have to pay your own |
| 19:59.58 | JoshH | but someone who just plain has a tragedy and needs a bone marrow transplant or somethign shouldn't be financially ruined |
| 20:00.07 | blendmaster1024 | but the government should only take 10% in taxes |
| 20:00.23 | Jayce^ | why should they even take that.. |
| 20:00.26 | blendmaster1024 | JoshH: you are looking at it from the wrong direction |
| 20:00.30 | Jayce^ | they can make do with far less |
| 20:00.38 | blendmaster1024 | is someone justified in stealing because they need help? |
| 20:00.44 | blendmaster1024 | nooo |
| 20:01.03 | blendmaster1024 | they can ask though - people will peobably love to give if it's not taken by force |
| 20:01.25 | JoshH | i think it's possible to be a capitalist at heart, but still believe that certain things shouldn't be a for profit industry |
| 20:01.25 | Jayce^ | let the responsibility fall back to the community.. not the state, or the State |
| 20:01.41 | JoshH | community responsibility? |
| 20:01.43 | JoshH | what do you mean by that |
| 20:02.10 | blendmaster1024 | the state is the community |
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| 20:02.15 | Jayce^ | no it isn't |
| 20:02.20 | blendmaster1024 | the money the state has came from taxes |
| 20:02.40 | blendmaster1024 | the voice of the state is *supposed* to be the voice of the people |
| 20:02.44 | Jayce^ | JoshH: self first, then family, then localized communites (churches, social institutions, etc) |
| 20:03.08 | JoshH | well, for a lot of things, that's how it is |
| 20:03.09 | maquis | Jayce^: agreed |
| 20:03.12 | Jayce^ | many of our greatest healthcare institutions grew exactly out of that organization |
| 20:03.18 | JoshH | but your church isn't going to give you a heart transplant |
| 20:03.28 | blendmaster1024 | the individual should have the absoloute say on what goes on in their life as long as it doesn't stop someone else from doing the same |
| 20:03.34 | JoshH | people in it might pitch in for one, sure |
| 20:03.37 | unum | JoshH: they used to ;) |
| 20:03.38 | blendmaster1024 | JoshH: why not? |
| 20:03.47 | Jayce^ | JoshH: actually, many of the hospitals were created exactly for that.. |
| 20:03.59 | blendmaster1024 | the LDS hospital was actually LDS |
| 20:04.00 | Jayce^ | and then they would also do what they could outside of being the ones to provide the service |
| 20:04.13 | Jayce^ | shriners hospitals, etc.. |
| 20:04.17 | JoshH | besides, not everyone wants to be part of a church |
| 20:04.29 | blendmaster1024 | and LDS people often gift health money when it's needed |
| 20:04.33 | JoshH | and not everybody likes their neighbors |
| 20:04.40 | blendmaster1024 | so....? |
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| 20:04.47 | blendmaster1024 | there are tons that do |
| 20:04.49 | maquis | "your church isn't going to give you a heart transplant" <-- i thought that's what they meant when they talked about a "change of heart" |
| 20:04.50 | Jayce^ | JoshH: a) so, there are other organizations b) the churches have something called "charity" |
| 20:04.58 | Jayce^ | maquis++ |
| 20:05.00 | blendmaster1024 | lolololoolololol maquis |
| 20:05.12 | Jayce^ | JoshH: it's everyones choice, is it ok to steal from others? |
| 20:05.19 | blendmaster1024 | nope |
| 20:05.31 | blendmaster1024 | if it's ok for you to do it to them |
| 20:05.37 | blendmaster1024 | then it's ok for them to do it to you |
| 20:05.40 | Jayce^ | I've got neighbors I don't like, and yet I know that some of my charitable donations are going directly to them based on their situations.. |
| 20:05.41 | JoshH | well, i don't think taxes are theft |
| 20:05.45 | blendmaster1024 | so dont do it to them |
| 20:05.52 | blendmaster1024 | if you dont like them doing it to you |
| 20:05.58 | Jayce^ | JoshH: I think many of them are, but there are some I think are ok |
| 20:06.12 | JoshH | well, i certainly hate them in most cases |
| 20:06.15 | blendmaster1024 | taxes are theft beyond a point |
| 20:06.29 | blendmaster1024 | did you know that the boston tea party was about a 2% tax? |
| 20:06.46 | maquis | just imagine what they'd be doing with our current taxes |
| 20:06.47 | JoshH | i'd personally be ok with a general healthcare fund though, so that nobody has to be bankrupted by a major health crisis, or worse, just die because their insurance company denies something |
| 20:06.51 | unum | blendmaster1024: did you know it was about the fact that they didn't get to vote for the people that set the tax |
| 20:07.11 | unum | maquis: they taxed themselves higher than that. |
| 20:07.23 | maquis | unum: but probably not anywhere near where we get taxed |
| 20:07.40 | maquis | glares in the direction of her income tax |
| 20:07.58 | unum | well the british government was underwriting most of the cost of their defense |
| 20:08.05 | maquis | personally, i think a (low) flat-percentage is a better way to do income tax than what we've got right now |
| 20:08.27 | maquis | and governments should be required to actually live within their budgets |
| 20:08.39 | JoshH | i think flat is a bad idea, but i do think it should be low for all brackets |
| 20:08.40 | unum | i think it would be better for everyone that way, though I would still prefer a graduated flat tax |
| 20:08.50 | maquis | increasing taxes because they waste money is stupid |
| 20:08.56 | JoshH | ya |
| 20:09.04 | maquis | unum: what do you mean by graduated flat tax? |
| 20:09.10 | maquis | JoshH: why is flat a bad idea? |
| 20:09.13 | JoshH | i don't like the idea of raising taxes to make up for budget shortfalls, instead of cutting spending |
| 20:09.14 | unum | you have brackets but no deductions |
| 20:09.40 | JoshH | because i think it would have to be too high for the poorest people |
| 20:09.48 | Jayce^ | and even the creators of the progressive tax claimed that americans would riot if we went beyond 5% :) |
| 20:10.12 | JoshH | americans are much more apathetic these days |
| 20:10.22 | JoshH | like myself, i rant online every day |
| 20:10.26 | JoshH | but i'd never attend a protest |
| 20:10.28 | maquis | JoshH: why would it have to be so high? |
| 20:10.29 | unum | prior to the earned income tax credit the poor were taxed at 15% |
| 20:10.32 | JoshH | i do email lawmakers though |
| 20:10.37 | Jayce^ | most just have no self-responsibility |
| 20:10.42 | maquis | passed a protest this morning on the way to work |
| 20:10.45 | maquis | not about taxes, though |
| 20:11.01 | unum | is fixing his law makers computer this week |
| 20:11.10 | JoshH | maquis: i just believe that in order to adequately fund everything, a flat tax would have to be higher than the poorest people could afford. it's just an opinion, i don't have solid numbers or anything |
| 20:11.29 | maquis | JoshH: i think that they could make it work |
| 20:11.58 | maquis | there's so much waste in the system right now |
| 20:12.00 | Jayce^ | JoshH: so instead of always looking at things as a revenue problem, why don't we just look at the spending problem? |
| 20:12.10 | unum | maquis: which things are you thinking of as waste? |
| 20:12.27 | Jayce^ | just like most americans seem to fail to understand basic budgeting, our lawmakers continue the example |
| 20:12.27 | JoshH | regarding health care though, i just think it's somethign that makes sense to be under government control, similar to police and fire services, trash pickup, etc. obviously i wouldn't want a crappy system managed by incompetent morons that makes people wait forever for treatments though. |
| 20:12.28 | fungus | issues with total amount of taxes collected is unrelated to progressive vs. flat tax rates |
| 20:13.01 | Jayce^ | JoshH: buy why *federal* govt? there is a big difference in responsibility between the state and the fed |
| 20:13.14 | JoshH | i think a bracketed, but still low, system is best |
| 20:13.35 | unum | because I want health coverage when I travel to seattle |
| 20:13.48 | JoshH | Jayce^: i don't care either way, but if it were up to each state, i'm sure some would do a much better job than others, and it could lead to various issues |
| 20:14.09 | maquis | unum: taxes for sports structures... taxes for construction projects that are not budgetted and 8 years later, are needing "another 30-million" even though they've said that every single year |
| 20:14.13 | JoshH | in general, i don't have any ideological reasons to prefer state government over federal |
| 20:14.24 | maquis | olympic-sized swimming pools in a high school just because |
| 20:14.35 | Jayce^ | unum: so, you probably also want coverage when you go to some foreign country... |
| 20:14.45 | Jayce^ | what does that have to do with federal coverage? |
| 20:14.54 | maquis | state-mandated standardized testing that costs 80$/student (despite the fact that there are existing tests available that cost 3$/student) |
| 20:14.56 | Jayce^ | your payment options, and your services should not be so bound! |
| 20:15.08 | JoshH | maquis: taxes for things like stadiums can be ok, depending on the situation. if a sports team will end up bringing a lot of money to the economy over a few years, it makes sense |
| 20:15.29 | JoshH | it can be really tough for a private entity to build an expensive state of the art arena |
| 20:15.35 | Jayce^ | JoshH: but that should be a localized issue, and the local laws/decision process should be what drives it |
| 20:15.39 | JoshH | and a lot of places would have no teams at all if they could only be paid for that way |
| 20:15.51 | maquis | JoshH: maybe... maybe if they paid the players less they would have the money for the arena, though |
| 20:15.56 | maquis | or increase the cost of tickets |
| 20:15.56 | Jayce^ | JoshH: and yet look at the recent RSL stadium issue.. |
| 20:16.07 | JoshH | ya, the RSL issue bothered me |
| 20:16.12 | Jayce^ | there was a private venture willing to pay for it in utah valley |
| 20:16.15 | JoshH | but that was the utah good ole boys network in action |
| 20:16.17 | Jayce^ | and yet it got ramrodded |
| 20:16.20 | maquis | i dislike sports... i don't want to pay for the stadiums |
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| 20:17.19 | maquis | we've have transit projects in our area that have been going on since before i started high school |
| 20:17.38 | JoshH | that's a legitimate feeling, maquis, but i think governments do need to provide incentives and infrastructure for private businesses to thrive |
| 20:17.39 | Jayce^ | I think stadiums can be great for many things, but the local community that is paying should be the ones deciding |
| 20:17.44 | JoshH | sports teams are huge for local economies |
| 20:17.50 | Jayce^ | and we shouldn't be taxing St. George for one in Sandy |
| 20:17.58 | maquis | every year they say "if we get N-million dollars, we'll finish it this year", so taxes go up (again), and at the end of the year, they say the same thing |
| 20:18.12 | JoshH | that said, if locals vote against funding a stadium, i don't think one should be built anyway |
| 20:18.29 | JoshH | the RSL stadium is lame anyway, from what i can tell |
| 20:18.32 | JoshH | i haven't gone to a game |
| 20:19.02 | maquis | if a construction company can go 10 years over on a 3 year project, and use 5x their budget, i think they ought to be out of business |
| 20:19.07 | JoshH | but it's quite small, for a soccer stadium |
| 20:19.19 | JoshH | and i hear getting a beer there is a pita, or it was anyway |
| 20:19.40 | Jayce^ | actually, it's nice, I've been.. I like the design |
| 20:19.48 | JoshH | i wish we had an NFL or MLB team |
| 20:19.54 | JoshH | i know the wasatch front could support one |
| 20:20.01 | maquis | i would like to see more transparency in where my tax money goes, what it's spent on, etc... |
| 20:20.09 | JoshH | at least with attendance, maybe not for a TV market |
| 20:20.19 | Jayce^ | yeah, but those leagues dont' want more teams... they have a nice amount of control where it is right now |
| 20:20.35 | JoshH | actually i think the jazz need a new arena |
| 20:20.40 | maquis | JoshH: we have NFL and MLB here in seattle... and i think we just managed to lose our NBA team |
| 20:20.44 | JoshH | the newer NBA arenas are much nicer than the ESA |
| 20:20.54 | JoshH | and have full restaurants in them, etc |
| 20:21.01 | Jayce^ | maquis: you did, last year... |
| 20:21.10 | JoshH | maquis: that was a sad situation |
| 20:21.19 | maquis | last i heard, the sonics were playing horridly, and were begging for a new place to play |
| 20:21.33 | maquis | they were handing tickets out on the side of the street and still couldn't fill the seats |
| 20:21.34 | Jayce^ | that was lawyer games, and deception at its best |
| 20:21.52 | JoshH | i doubt they were actually giving away free tickets |
| 20:21.57 | maquis | Jayce^: i'm glad that we didn't end up having to pay for a new place for them to play |
| 20:22.01 | maquis | JoshH: i would doubt that, but i got some |
| 20:22.05 | maquis | i didn't even want them |
| 20:22.14 | JoshH | why not? the cost of an arena really is chump change, even for a pricy one |
| 20:22.16 | maquis | i thought they were giving me a flyer |
| 20:22.20 | JoshH | and the money is made back in spades |
| 20:22.52 | JoshH | but forget about sports, think about things like zoos |
| 20:22.55 | maquis | JoshH: we have plenty of arenas here, and they're overpriced |
| 20:23.09 | maquis | the mariners and seahawks used to share the kingdome |
| 20:23.17 | Jayce^ | yeah, the concrete slug |
| 20:23.21 | JoshH | there aren't a lot of completely private zoos, parks, museums, etc, but they really enrich a community |
| 20:23.26 | JoshH | and imo, are quite valuable |
| 20:23.28 | Jayce^ | the new stadiums are waaaay better than the kingdome |
| 20:23.34 | maquis | then they decided they didn't like sharing, so now, right next to each other, we have qwest field and... uh... whatever the other one is |
| 20:23.48 | Jayce^ | JoshH: I love, and do support those, and yet I don't think we should have state taxes for them |
| 20:23.49 | JoshH | the delta center is crap too, i think it's actually the only NBA arena with all plastic seats |
| 20:23.51 | maquis | Jayce^: they suck if you have to pay for them, don't use them, and all they do for you is kill your commute |
| 20:24.08 | JoshH | if we didn't though, Jayce^, we wouldn't have most of them |
| 20:24.12 | JoshH | i think it's a necessary sacrifice |
| 20:24.52 | Jayce^ | JoshH: no, they'd exist, withing the means of the locality |
| 20:25.05 | JoshH | last time i was visiting family in phoenix, we wanted to go to the zoo. there is a private one there, called world wildlife zoo i believe, and it was close to $40 for admission |
| 20:25.20 | Jayce^ | that's not all that uncommon.. |
| 20:25.28 | JoshH | the public phoenix zoo, which is considered one of the top 5 in the country, was much cheaper |
| 20:25.32 | Jayce^ | trying to remember how much I paid last time I went to san diego.. |
| 20:25.35 | JoshH | still very expensive compared to hogle though |
| 20:25.55 | JoshH | i remember the prices seemed outragous, but the private one was completely out of my budget for the trip |
| 20:26.03 | Jayce^ | and while pt defiance was closer, I preferred going to the Pt. Angeles refuge in WA |
| 20:26.40 | JoshH | i'd rather pay an extra 60 cents per year in taxes and have a public zoo that costs 10 bucks to go to |
| 20:26.57 | maquis | wonders where she can get a list of whether PSC and woodland park are financed by taxes |
| 20:27.19 | maquis | pretty sure the science center isn't... admissions is expensive, but it's totally worth it, and it's *constantly* full |
| 20:27.26 | Jayce^ | JoshH: sure, because you see yourself getting a discount, but what about the folks in St. George who aren't going to come up here to hit hogle? |
| 20:27.34 | JoshH | i actually hate the fee for millcreek canyon, and almost always go hiking somewhere else because of it |
| 20:27.42 | maquis | JoshH: do you really think it'd only be 60 cents per year/ |
| 20:27.43 | levi | maquis: Is PSC the one in Portland? |
| 20:27.47 | Jayce^ | maquis: I know PSC was for a while |
| 20:27.52 | maquis | levi: no... PSC is Pacific Science Center |
| 20:27.54 | Jayce^ | levi: no, pacific science center |
| 20:27.58 | Jayce^ | the space needle, etc.. |
| 20:27.58 | JoshH | Jayce^: their fault for living in such a dump ;) |
| 20:28.08 | maquis | Jayce^: space needle isn't part of the science center |
| 20:28.12 | maquis | that's just seattle center :P |
| 20:28.19 | Jayce^ | JoshH: think of how many people say that about UT in general :) |
| 20:28.24 | JoshH | seriously though, you do bring up a good point |
| 20:28.32 | JoshH | think about how much california pays for the rest of the nation |
| 20:28.33 | Jayce^ | maquis: I know, but it's the easiest way to tell somebody where it is :) |
| 20:28.38 | maquis | Jayce^: ah |
| 20:28.41 | JoshH | i believe utah actually gets more federal money than most states |
| 20:28.56 | Jayce^ | JoshH: actually, think how much we pay for them too, especially if current legislation goes through |
| 20:29.13 | JoshH | people talk about california's budget problems like it's ran by a bunch of morons, but they pay for a ton of federal projects |
| 20:29.38 | levi | Ahh. I went to some cool science museum thing in Portland, and I don't remember what it was called. |
| 20:29.48 | JoshH | i recently heard that utah actually does get more fed money coming in than we pay out |
| 20:29.57 | JoshH | but i don't know exact details |
| 20:30.00 | unum | arizona is the state that gets screwed in terms of federal spending |
| 20:30.07 | unum | that's what they get electing anti-earmark people |
| 20:30.07 | Jayce^ | JoshH: right now *every* state does that.. |
| 20:30.18 | JoshH | but utah more than most |
| 20:30.28 | unum | alaska is the real winner |
| 20:30.30 | levi | Now that I think about it, I think I've been to PSC too. |
| 20:30.33 | unum | but utah is not far down the list |
| 20:31.14 | unum | the rest of my family is very conservative and against federal health care reform. they are all on health care programs paid for by federal tax dollars |
| 20:31.17 | unum | some how this seems wrong |
| 20:31.20 | JoshH | i know st george gets a good chunk of my paycheck, even though i always try to avoid exiting the freeway there on my way to vegas |
| 20:31.37 | unum | is the air force base that gets most of it |
| 20:31.41 | JoshH | except maybe for jack in the box |
| 20:31.58 | Jayce^ | mmm, jack in the box... |
| 20:32.02 | unum | which is where most of my family works |
| 20:32.56 | JoshH | i understand the concept of not wanting goverment to run everything, but, i can't really see the rationale of preferring to be ruled by corporations instead, especially when they are screwing you over, like with healthcare |
| 20:33.08 | levi | unum: My father in law is only alive due to federal health care programs, yet he hates the programs with a passion. |
| 20:33.49 | JoshH | the main thing i hate about government interference in the market are government granted monopolies, like utilities and telcos |
| 20:34.12 | levi | JoshH: The people who don't want government to run everything don't want corporations to run everything either, for the most part. AFAICT, they think the current corporate situation is due to government meddling. |
| 20:34.42 | levi | I don't really understand how they expect to get from where we are to where they would like us to be, but being ruled by megacorps isn't part of their vision. |
| 20:35.12 | unum | JoshH: that's why I live in murray. the only I have to deal with is questar. everything else is city owned |
| 20:35.20 | JoshH | well, i don't hear much complaining about megacorps having too much power, unless it's "liberals" or "activists" complaining about lobbying and influence |
| 20:35.26 | tensai | levi: you're thinking of omsi |
| 20:35.38 | levi | tensai: Yeah, that's it. |
| 20:35.44 | tensai | and yes it is way cool |
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| 20:36.29 | levi | JoshH: If you look in the right places, you do. The argument rarely goes there these days, though, due to the government being front-and-center in everyone's mind. |
| 20:36.43 | JoshH | but i'd rather my health care be managed (well) by a government program that can't tell me to FOAD, than by a megacorp that can tell me that, literally |
| 20:37.19 | levi | JoshH: Well, I'm not disagreeing with you, but a lot of people fear the government WILL tell them to FOAD if they're managing health care. |
| 20:37.32 | maquis | JoshH: i'm not so sure the government will manage it well |
| 20:37.41 | JoshH | levi: to me, most of it just boils down to irrational fears against "socialism", with nothing ever really said about corporations |
| 20:37.45 | levi | Of course, some of those people also fear that the government is planning on putting them in concentration camps any day now or something. |
| 20:37.54 | JoshH | government is socialist, corporations aren't, therefore government is worse |
| 20:37.57 | blendmaster1024 | yeah i'd reather it be managed by a megacorp that can BUT DOESN'T act like an idiot is in chare |
| 20:37.59 | blendmaster1024 | charge* |
| 20:38.21 | blendmaster1024 | maquis: the government cant manage anything |
| 20:38.23 | JoshH | maquis: me neither, but it's not being managed very well right now either |
| 20:38.36 | JoshH | blendmaster1024: so how does the government manage the military and the cops? |
| 20:38.41 | unum | if you don't have competition you don't have a free market and there fore you don't have any advantage to it being private |
| 20:38.42 | blendmaster1024 | "government is socialist, corporations aren't, therefore government is worse" |
| 20:38.42 | levi | JoshH: I know, I feel the same way, but I don't think it does any good to assume that conservatives don't worry about the influence of corporations at all. |
| 20:38.50 | JoshH | i don't understand the argument that the government sucks at everything, except for managing the army |
| 20:38.54 | tensai | JoshH: well put |
| 20:38.55 | maquis | JoshH: i much prefer how my health insurance is right now compared to what it would be if my husband was mobilized and i was stuck with the government insurance |
| 20:39.05 | blendmaster1024 | it does a worse job managing most things - anything that it shouldn't manage it cant manage |
| 20:39.22 | blendmaster1024 | if it should manage it - military - then it does a better job |
| 20:39.23 | JoshH | maquis: but what if you needed cancer treatment, like brandon stout's wife, and had to pay half a million dollars? |
| 20:39.38 | blendmaster1024 | then you ask for help from the community |
| 20:39.41 | unum | blendmaster1024: having had power provided privatly and by my goverment I have to disagree |
| 20:39.42 | blendmaster1024 | like they did |
| 20:39.49 | JoshH | the current private system is fantastic for people who just need a few cheap prescriptions and a couple checkups a year, maybe with a baby now and then |
| 20:39.52 | levi | blendmaster1024: I've seen some corporations do a terrible job of managing things, too. Most organizations suck at managing things, whether they're public or private. |
| 20:40.07 | blendmaster1024 | yes they do ... they all follow the same sad model |
| 20:40.10 | maquis | JoshH: i don't know what that situation is... i've found that my current coverage is quite good, though... and i don't think the government would provide better |
| 20:40.20 | blendmaster1024 | look at the freecapitalist project |
| 20:40.44 | blendmaster1024 | the guy in charge of it was doing fine until he was blamed for something he didn't do |
| 20:40.47 | unum | blendmaster1024: what you don't understand that the only reason the free market provides good solutions is because of competition. if you eliminate competition then you get something much worse than goverment ran |
| 20:40.52 | Sargun | http://www.pandora.com/music/song/stars+of+lid/austin+texas+mental+hospital+part+1 |
| 20:40.54 | levi | maquis: Looking only at your personal coverage is missing an important aspect of the system, though. |
| 20:41.11 | maquis | levi: i'm saying that i don't want socialized coverage because i like my current coverage |
| 20:41.22 | JoshH | unum: that's true, and it's why i think the anti-utopia people who think that comcast + qwest = free market are stupid |
| 20:41.23 | blendmaster1024 | yes i do that is what i am trying to say but i forgot the words lol i just remembered "i know this is better but why" |
| 20:41.24 | maquis | i'd rather keep it than go with something else |
| 20:41.37 | maquis | levi: and i don't see why i should pay for my good coverage and other people's coverage as well |
| 20:41.56 | blendmaster1024 | obama scares me |
| 20:42.05 | unum | blendmaster1024: he shouldn't |
| 20:42.07 | blendmaster1024 | i think he wants everything to be socialized |
| 20:42.09 | levi | maquis: Well, sure, that's a classic conservative position. Don't change, things work fine for me! But there are systemic problems in the current system that will likely degrade your coverage. |
| 20:42.17 | blendmaster1024 | that would be very bad |
| 20:42.18 | unum | blendmaster1024: than you haven't been paying attention to him |
| 20:42.19 | JoshH | maquis: how do you feel abotu paying for everyone else's national defense and police protection? what's so bad about adding bone marrow transplants to the mix? |
| 20:42.29 | blendmaster1024 | if you make money then you have to give it away |
| 20:42.37 | unum | blendmaster1024: it's always been that way |
| 20:42.41 | unum | even under bush |
| 20:42.52 | unum | except under bush we were paying to kill people who did nothing to us |
| 20:42.54 | maquis | JoshH: if i was paying separately for my own national defense and police protection.... |
| 20:42.57 | maquis | this is different |
| 20:42.59 | blendmaster1024 | then get the heck rid of it! |
| 20:43.04 | unum | oh also paying people to listen to my phone calls |
| 20:43.08 | blendmaster1024 | go back to 10% taxes |
| 20:43.17 | unum | back? |
| 20:43.19 | unum | googles |
| 20:43.32 | unum | actually I think I have that information on my own server |
| 20:43.33 | blendmaster1024 | the government wastes tons and tons of tax money |
| 20:43.33 | tensai | is finally making some progress |
| 20:43.40 | maquis | blendmaster1024: that's what i was saying earlier |
| 20:43.49 | JoshH | everyone hates the idea of socialist health care, but if the private system was giving us affordable care and people weren't at the mercy of corporations, who frequently deny care or coverage, it wouldn't be an issue |
| 20:43.51 | unum | blendmaster1024: ya they give it to my brother to kill people |
| 20:43.54 | JoshH | the private system IS failing |
| 20:44.02 | blendmaster1024 | they have the wrong mindset - if someone runs out of money one year, they need more the next year |
| 20:44.04 | JoshH | so people are naturally turning to the government for an answer |
| 20:44.07 | JoshH | because what else can you do |
| 20:44.16 | blendmaster1024 | JoshH: that's because the government is squishing it |
| 20:44.21 | JoshH | no it isn't |
| 20:44.23 | maquis | JoshH: then use a company that isn't failing... i just don't think the government is going to make things better |
| 20:44.27 | blendmaster1024 | sigh |
| 20:44.29 | blendmaster1024 | s |
| 20:44.34 | JoshH | the companies aren't failing themselves |
| 20:44.37 | JoshH | they are profiting just fine |
| 20:44.48 | JoshH | but people are paying way too much |
| 20:44.49 | maquis | JoshH: i mean a company that isn't failing you |
| 20:44.56 | tensai | JoshH: it annoys me to no end that some people will run away from anything labeled "socialist" regardless of the merits, despite the fact that some things (not all certainly) just plain work better in a socialist fashion. |
| 20:45.02 | blendmaster1024 | the companies are failing to provide good service because the government doesn't allow the correct way for them to work |
| 20:45.03 | maquis | JoshH: sure... but do you think the government is going to give equivalent coverage for free/ |
| 20:45.07 | maquis | ? |
| 20:45.11 | blendmaster1024 | no |
| 20:45.12 | levi | maquis: You have to consider what happens to soceity as a whole when a large percentage of the population is un- or under-insured. The alternatives are: A. turn them away from emergency rooms and let them suffer/die, or B. provide expensive emergency treatment to them and pay for it anyway at a higher rate. |
| 20:45.15 | JoshH | of course not free |
| 20:45.18 | JoshH | but more affordable, yes |
| 20:45.19 | blendmaster1024 | you just get it from taxes |
| 20:45.25 | blendmaster1024 | other people's money |
| 20:45.33 | maquis | levi: you can't drive a car without paying for insurance |
| 20:45.33 | blendmaster1024 | without their permissioon |
| 20:45.38 | blendmaster1024 | yes you can |
| 20:45.42 | JoshH | the USA currently does spend more on healthcare than most other countries, even though we don't have a public system |
| 20:45.46 | blendmaster1024 | you are just taking a nice fat risk |
| 20:45.51 | JoshH | and people are still going bankrupt for health care every day |
| 20:45.55 | maquis | blendmaster1024: perhaps in some states you can |
| 20:46.00 | blendmaster1024 | JoshH: then the government needa to back out |
| 20:46.06 | levi | maquis: I don't see how that relates to my statement. |
| 20:46.08 | maquis | you can get into trouble for it in some states |
| 20:46.12 | blendmaster1024 | !!! |
| 20:46.14 | TehLaser_ | I believe you can post a bond in lieu of insurance in Utah. |
| 20:46.16 | JoshH | how should the government back out? |
| 20:46.21 | JoshH | i think you don't know what you're talking about |
| 20:46.23 | blendmaster1024 | really? i am pretty sure that's not true here, in utah |
| 20:46.41 | unum | blendmaster1024: it's the law that you either of insuarance or a bond |
| 20:46.42 | maquis | levi: i think people should pay for their own insurance |
| 20:46.46 | maquis | blendmaster1024: i don't live in utah |
| 20:46.50 | blendmaster1024 | the government should back out because they are what is driving the costs up as they try to fix it |
| 20:46.52 | TehLaser_ | Driving without liability insurance or a bond is quite illegal in Utah. |
| 20:47.07 | unum | blendmaster1024: nice theory but completely wrong |
| 20:47.07 | TehLaser_ | has been pulled over for that. |
| 20:47.09 | maquis | i think TehLaser_ is correct in at least most states |
| 20:47.10 | JoshH | maquis: ok, assume everyone pays for insurance. what happens when insurance denies you the treatment you need, simply because it's labeled experimental? |
| 20:47.15 | levi | maquis: Duh. But what if they can't? |
| 20:47.17 | blendmaster1024 | "nice theory"!?!?!?!?!? |
| 20:47.21 | JoshH | is that ok, because the company needs to make money? |
| 20:47.23 | unum | blendmaster1024: stop listening to hanity and beck you'll instantly become smarter |
| 20:47.29 | blendmaster1024 | ok what do you think they should do unum? |
| 20:47.37 | blendmaster1024 | i dont i think |
| 20:47.42 | unum | agreed |
| 20:48.14 | TehLaser | The sad fact of healthcare is humanity cannot afford to provide as much of it as sick people want. |
| 20:48.15 | unum | I think they should introduce a competive plan. |
| 20:48.16 | JoshH | if insurance companies were forbidden from denying treatments that doctors say is the right thing to do, i'd be happier |
| 20:48.22 | TehLaser | At some point, you have to say "enough, you get to die now" |
| 20:48.28 | TehLaser | And nothing can change this. |
| 20:48.31 | maquis | JoshH: then they should go to a company that does cover... |
| 20:48.36 | JoshH | it's not like that maquis |
| 20:48.39 | maquis | or find out what options are available |
| 20:48.42 | blendmaster1024 | if people could do away with money it would help a lot of things |
| 20:48.44 | JoshH | if you are risky enough, you can't even get covered anywhere |
| 20:48.50 | levi | maquis: What about unemployed people? |
| 20:48.50 | JoshH | you are just screwed |
| 20:48.53 | blendmaster1024 | unfortuneatly it would completely destroy others |
| 20:48.53 | unum | maquis: no private company will cover me, unless required by law |
| 20:49.00 | maquis | levi: they can pay for it |
| 20:49.07 | levi | maquis: With what money? |
| 20:49.09 | unum | blendmaster1024: only if the don't adapt |
| 20:49.16 | maquis | levi: not mine |
| 20:49.21 | unum | blendmaster1024: and if it's better than the others why is that bad |
| 20:49.31 | JoshH | maquis: should unemployed people not be allowed to dial 911? |
| 20:49.33 | blendmaster1024 | yeah just do away with money and do value-for-value trades |
| 20:49.41 | JoshH | or go to the city park? |
| 20:49.47 | levi | maquis: So, you lose your job, you run out of savings, and you get appendicitis. What happens? |
| 20:49.52 | blendmaster1024 | i need bread, you need your computer fixed, we trade |
| 20:49.58 | TehLaser | A simple "private" fix to health insurance problems would be to disallow insurance companies from turning people away or setting different rates for people with preexisting conditions. Yes, this would suck for the insurance companies, but if they *all* had to deal with this, it shouldn't be much different than it is now. |
| 20:50.15 | maquis | JoshH: for non-emergencies, they should not... a large majority of emergency-room visits by people without insurance are not emergencies |
| 20:50.22 | unum | TehLaser: that's part of the plan. |
| 20:50.26 | TehLaser | Then have people buy their own insurance, as we don't need artificial grouping to spread risk anymore. |
| 20:50.29 | blendmaster1024 | 98% of 26 MB at 1kbps... whee! |
| 20:50.32 | maquis | JoshH: emergency rooms (even in private hospitals) are not allowed to turn away a true emergency |
| 20:50.34 | levi | maquis: Currently, you go to the emergency room, they treat you, and the costs get absorbed by the system, and everyone else pays for it. |
| 20:50.34 | unum | I think there are some other thing they are trying to do that are better |
| 20:50.49 | JoshH | maquis: and who pays for that? |
| 20:50.56 | maquis | levi: yes... and if they're doing that for a non-emergency, i think it should be illegal |
| 20:51.08 | maquis | JoshH: unfortunately, the hospital, the doctors, and their patients |
| 20:51.10 | TehLaser | And the competition among plans that is sorely lacking with healthcare as a benefit ought to improve things. |
| 20:51.11 | unum | but it's cheaper to treat before it becomes an emergency |
| 20:51.17 | JoshH | they can turn away people for non-emergencies, and they do all the time |
| 20:51.30 | maquis | unum: i'm sorry, but a sore throat is not going to become an emergency |
| 20:51.36 | TehLaser | Unfortunatley, this still doesn't incentivize the insurance companies or the providers to maximize your benefit. |
| 20:51.43 | levi | maquis: So, the only way to get medical treatment if you are uninsured is being critically ill. What's cheaper, being treated for a critical illness or preventative medicine so you don't become critically ill? |
| 20:51.48 | unum | maquis: but a sore tooth will |
| 20:51.49 | TehLaser | maquis: it will if it's strep. |
| 20:51.55 | unum | TehLaser: better answer |
| 20:52.04 | blendmaster1024 | this is crasy you people want socialised? |
| 20:52.10 | maquis | i still haven't heard anyone tell me how the government is going to make everything better |
| 20:52.16 | levi | maquis: A sore throat *could* develop into an emergency if it's the early stages of a nasty infection and you have a poor immune system. |
| 20:52.18 | blendmaster1024 | maquis: it wont |
| 20:52.19 | unum | blendmaster1024: we want more goverment involvement |
| 20:52.22 | JoshH | it would, in theory, make it more affordable for everyone |
| 20:52.32 | maquis | decrease the quality of everyone's medical coverage so that everyone has the same horrid coverage? |
| 20:52.38 | TehLaser | maquis: it's universaility that should make it better, not the government. |
| 20:52.41 | blendmaster1024 | the government will break it they are sooo stupid there |
| 20:52.41 | unum | maquis: I posted a link earlier about the plan |
| 20:52.45 | JoshH | maquis: how much do you expect to pay in premiums once you are a housewife and have kids, based on your husbands insurance? |
| 20:52.47 | levi | maquis: The point is, you're *already* paying for the medical treatment of uninsured people. |
| 20:53.04 | maquis | JoshH: i don't know off the top of my head... |
| 20:53.05 | JoshH | unless your company pays 100 percent or a high percentage even for families, it will be a lot |
| 20:53.06 | levi | maquis: It would be *cheaper* to pay for their insurance and have them not visit the emergency room so often. |
| 20:53.12 | TehLaser | The fact that uninsured people exist, but still have to be cared for and paid for by someone means that expensive treatment takes the place of cheaper treatments earlier. |
| 20:53.19 | JoshH | much more than you would pay in taxes in a national system |
| 20:53.20 | maquis | JoshH: my company does pay a large percentage, though |
| 20:53.20 | unum | blendmaster1024: you already depend on the government for medical emergencies |
| 20:53.29 | blendmaster1024 | right that is BAD |
| 20:53.34 | maquis | and even if it didn't, that is something we would budget in so that we can cover it |
| 20:53.34 | JoshH | does the percentage shrink when you start adding kids to it? |
| 20:53.39 | blendmaster1024 | fortunatly for me i haven't had one yet |
| 20:53.48 | unum | blendmaster1024: I think it's great. works very well |
| 20:53.59 | blendmaster1024 | throws up |
| 20:54.23 | maquis | i know what medicare/medicaid has done to some of the medical industry (my dad's a doctor), and it's made things problematic for the doctors... |
| 20:54.23 | levi | BTW, I've been on government-run health care before as a military dependant. It works pretty darned well. |
| 20:54.32 | JoshH | i think a private system could be fine, even preferable, if it was affordable and people weren't screwed. |
| 20:54.36 | JoshH | but that's not how it is now |
| 20:54.43 | maquis | levi: really? too bad i wouldn't be able to keep my current doctor... |
| 20:54.51 | unum | maquis: ? |
| 20:54.54 | JoshH | why not? |
| 20:55.09 | unum | you really should read the plan before you comment on it |
| 20:55.11 | JoshH | i think that's a scare tactic |
| 20:55.13 | levi | maquis: I had a cornea specialist who had studied with all the other cornea specialists I'd seen. |
| 20:55.30 | maquis | unum: i haven't read all the details, but i was actually looking to see whether my current doctor was covered |
| 20:55.39 | JoshH | besides, you wouldn't be able to keep your current doctor either if you switched jobs and your new insurance had a different network |
| 20:55.41 | levi | maquis: And I got my corena transplant a *lot* faster than I did working through the private medical system. |
| 20:55.42 | JoshH | how is that better? |
| 20:55.52 | unum | maquis: under the yet to be create public option? |
| 20:55.59 | JoshH | the way it is now, insurance companies decide absolutely everything about your healthcare |
| 20:56.02 | maquis | unum: no... under military coverage |
| 20:56.04 | JoshH | why would the government do it worse? |
| 20:56.08 | unum | oh |
| 20:56.33 | tensai | yay! cacti is running again |
| 20:56.59 | maquis | anyway, i don't trust the government with this stuff... i haven't seen any signs that they'd do a good job... |
| 20:57.05 | maquis | but i have to actually get some real work done |
| 20:57.11 | JoshH | do you trust them with the roads and bridges in your town? |
| 20:57.23 | maquis | JoshH: not to finance them in a reasonable way |
| 20:57.28 | JoshH | it's not like you live in minneapolis |
| 20:57.37 | maquis | they spend money like crazy and do nothing |
| 20:57.42 | unum | maquis: they do a lot |
| 20:57.55 | levi | maquis: You don't seem to have actually tried the military system aside from seeing that they didn't have your doctor, which as was pointed out is a common thing when switching private insurance providers as well. |
| 20:57.55 | JoshH | well, the government certainly does have huge problems with paying way too much money for things, but i think the private sector is to blame for that |
| 20:57.56 | unum | all of your roads, the military, the police, so much stuff |
| 20:57.59 | maquis | unum: then why are some of the projects at 5x the initial budget, 10 years late, and still not finished/ |
| 20:58.02 | JoshH | becuse they charge a lot and get away with it |
| 20:58.18 | maquis | levi: correct |
| 20:58.22 | unum | maquis: happens in the private sector to |
| 20:58.23 | levi | maquis: I can name any number of private projects that have been 5x the initial budget, many years late, etc. |
| 20:58.35 | tensai | duke nukem forever? |
| 20:58.55 | unum | many things are done one time and under budget as well |
| 20:59.01 | unum | s/one/on |
| 20:59.11 | JoshH | everyone can agree that the government could certainly use a lot of improvement, in countless areas |
| 20:59.21 | unum | but more transparency is the best solution, not inefficient market solutions |
| 20:59.43 | JoshH | but i'm not convinced that i'd feel less like a rape victim if the government was in charge of paying for my health care than my insurance company |
| 20:59.50 | JoshH | err, more, i guess |
| 21:00.03 | JoshH | and instead of |
| 21:00.05 | JoshH | sigh |
| 21:05.48 | JoshH | overall, i've personally been fairly lucky. I was once prescribed somethign that didn't have a generic version, and would have cost me about 400 per month, but since it wasn't completely necessary for me to live, i just never ended up buying any. another time, i was told to get a certain treatment that insurance companies only pay a small portion of, and it was the same situation with that. i should get it, but i don't, because it's unreasonably |
| 21:06.21 | JoshH | other than that, though, i'm ok. the vast majority of my health care expenses are copays for visits, generic prescription copays, etc, and it's really not a lot of money. |
| 21:07.04 | JoshH | but when i read about people like brandon stout, and how he just happened to be lucky enough to have the precise plan options that saved him hundreds of thousands of dollars, my blood boils. |
| 21:11.49 | Jayce^ | JoshH: but just by being prescribed that, you can now be denied insurance |
| 21:13.21 | JoshH | i never dropped off the prescriptions |
| 21:13.32 | JoshH | dunno where else it would show up |
| 21:13.39 | JoshH | but i don't think it's something that would cause me any problems |
| 21:13.54 | JoshH | but if that were the case, it wouldn't make me like the current private system any more |
| 21:14.03 | Jayce^ | because they share those now, part of that wonderful new documentation :) |
| 21:14.42 | Jayce^ | that's one of neybar's issues.. not using a medicince, but the dr, prescribed it once... never was filled |
| 21:14.58 | JoshH | actually, in the one case, the doctor had me check with the insurance before actually prescribing the treatment, which i did, so we looked into alternates |
| 21:16.44 | TehLaser | I've had doctors start to write me several prescriptions for things, talk about the reletive merits of each, and instruct me to take them all to the pharmacy to see what the costs are and decide there which to fill. |
| 21:17.02 | TehLaser | The pharmacy clerks have been giving me nasty looks lately. |
| 21:18.16 | TehLaser | The fact that it is ofter nearly impossible to get a straight answer to "what is this going to cost?" in the US healthcare system without actually having the treatment done is a sign that the market is throughly broken. |
| 21:20.17 | blendmaster1024 | yeah lol |
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| 22:03.17 | Sargun | Liberals, in utah? |
| 22:03.18 | Sargun | wtf? |
| 22:03.56 | unum | hides |
| 22:04.49 | unum | of course I'm registered to take the concealed wepons permit class on the 27th |
| 22:04.54 | unum | I'm a bad liberal |
| 22:05.48 | levi | What made you decide to get a concealed carry permit? |
| 22:06.28 | Jayce^ | unum: you taking it at the show? |
| 22:08.38 | unum | Jayce^: no |
| 22:08.53 | unum | levi: my older brother arranged the class and asked me to join them so that the rate would be lower |
| 22:09.05 | unum | I don't know why I said yes. I doubt I'll ever own a gun |
| 22:09.16 | Jayce^ | still good to learn the law |
| 22:09.20 | Jayce^ | and it doesn't mean you get your permit |
| 22:09.25 | Jayce^ | it's just a requirement for filing |
| 22:09.33 | unum | ya |
| 22:09.42 | bmidgley_ | and they take your fingerprints when you actually get the permit |
| 22:09.58 | bmidgley_ | let's go do some crimes |
| 22:10.01 | Jayce^ | depends on your class, some offer that as part of the price |
| 22:10.14 | Jayce^ | easier then, than to pay extra at the BCI |
| 22:10.31 | unum | bmidgley_: I always wear gloves, I have bad circulation :) |
| 22:11.37 | bmidgley_ | I'm at the agile conference in sandy today |
| 22:11.42 | bmidgley_ | pretty interesting |
| 22:12.37 | bmidgley_ | I think it's the same stuff we heard in the oslo agile conference |
| 22:12.48 | bmidgley_ | only now it's in a language I can understand |
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