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| 00:25.55 | itsecret | anyone??????????????????????????????????/ |
| 00:26.04 | itsecret | provo anyone??????????????????????? |
| 00:26.43 | Supaplex | why so many extra question marks? |
| 00:26.57 | itsecret | so I get noticed |
| 00:28.02 | herlo | that won't help |
| 00:28.17 | herlo | Supaplex: how's things? |
| 00:28.35 | Supaplex | groovy. how about yourself? |
| 00:28.50 | herlo | doing alright, a bit overwhelmed these days with life, but good nonetheless |
| 00:29.15 | Supaplex | yeah, life tends to offer that. |
| 00:29.37 | *** topic/#utah by herlo -> http://utos.org/irc | Log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | UTOSC - http://2009.utosc.com | PLUG server currently down. No ETA on uptime. Possible failed disk. |
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| 02:47.31 | unum | not sure why I didn't try that before |
| 02:47.45 | unum | my eeepc is now dvorak |
| 03:00.55 | tensai | never seen the need to learn dvorak |
| 03:01.14 | tensai | why do you like it? |
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| 12:26.38 | ^Migs^ | http://picktheperp.com/ |
| 12:26.39 | brac | [Pick the Perp] |
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| 13:00.31 | ^Migs^ | http://www.oddee.com/item_87332.aspx |
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| 15:41.22 | sjansen | ~blame emcnabb for killing plug |
| 15:41.23 | ibot | ACTION blames markl_ and perhaps emcnabb for killing plug and all the evil in the world |
| 15:41.48 | emcnabb | cool |
| 15:41.52 | emcnabb | it was me |
| 15:41.56 | emcnabb | what did I do? |
| 15:42.58 | tensai | rsimpkins: ping |
| 15:45.05 | goozbach | ~blame drew's cancer adn emcnabb for killing plug |
| 15:45.06 | ibot | ACTION blames thesuperbigfrog and perhaps drew's cancer adn emcnabb for killing plug and the end of culture as we know it |
| 15:45.57 | emcnabb | ha |
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| 17:27.46 | Sargun | anyone here a lawyer? |
| 17:30.22 | Sargun | Ordinarily, the hours to be used in computing the regular rate of pay may not exceed the legal maximum regular hours which, in most cases, is 8 hours per workday, 40 hours per workweek. This maximum may also be affected by the number of days one works in a workweek. It is important to determine what maximum is legal in each case. The alternate method of scheduling and computing overtime under most Industrial Welfare Commission Wage Orders, based on an |
| 17:30.22 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:30.33 | Sargun | Can anyone with better language skills than I parse that? |
| 17:30.57 | Sargun | does it mean your employer can either do overtime by the week, or by the day? |
| 17:31.02 | Sargun | or they have to do both? |
| 17:31.44 | sjansen | IANAL |
| 17:31.45 | ^Migs^ | I understood it up until the overtime thing |
| 17:32.08 | ^Migs^ | Never mind. It's computed based on the 40-hour workweek. |
| 17:32.14 | ^Migs^ | can't do it by the day |
| 17:32.47 | Sargun | ^Migs^, are you parsing the statement, or listening to your own experience? |
| 17:32.52 | ^Migs^ | parsing the statement |
| 17:33.14 | ^Migs^ | wait |
| 17:33.30 | ^Migs^ | yes, "which in this case also woudl be computed on the basis of 40 hours per workweek" |
| 17:33.35 | elg | cue ejection bridge |
| 17:33.50 | Sargun | ^Migs^, I think that's only if they work an alternative workweek schedule. |
| 17:33.51 | ^Migs^ | says nothing about day, it's computed by week |
| 17:33.55 | Sargun | though, the statement before that says: |
| 17:33.55 | Sargun | In California, the general overtime provisions are that a nonexempt employee 18 years of age or older, or any minor employee 16 or 17 years of age who is not required by law to attend school and is not otherwise prohibited by law from engaging in the subject work, shall not be employed more than eight hours in any workday or more than 40 hours in any workweek unless he or she receives one and one-half times his or her regular rate of pay for all hours |
| 17:33.55 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:34.04 | ^Migs^ | no, that would trickle over to a normal 8/5 schedule, too |
| 17:34.17 | TehLaser | It looks like it's trying to say that overtime is time in excess of what you would work in a day in a normal week of 40 hours. |
| 17:34.21 | thesuperbigfrog | ~lart ibot |
| 17:34.21 | ibot | overclocks thesuperbigfrog until thesuperbigfrog burns out |
| 17:34.30 | TehLaser | If that's 40 hours in two days, and that's "normal" you get no overtime. |
| 17:34.33 | Sargun | shall not be employed more than eight hours in any workday or more than 40 hours in any workweek |
| 17:35.13 | ^Migs^ | no, wrong |
| 17:35.31 | ^Migs^ | it actually says nothing about that, TehLaser |
| 17:35.41 | TehLaser | In my experience, however, overtime is > 40hrs/week/payperiod. |
| 17:35.43 | sjansen | Sargun: If you think you need a lawyer, you need a lawyer, not an IRC channel. |
| 17:35.45 | ^Migs^ | what kind of legal idiot wrote this crap? |
| 17:36.07 | ^Migs^ | number one rule of technical writing: If no one understands it, your writing is bad. |
| 17:36.10 | TehLaser | ^Migs^: the first paste, not the later paste. |
| 17:36.41 | ^Migs^ | well yeah, in my experience it's based on 40hrs/week. |
| 17:36.45 | TehLaser | That is, I would not have been paid overtime if I worked 80 hours one week and 0 the next on a biweekly pay period. |
| 17:36.53 | sjansen | Number one rule of legal writing: Legal documents are meant to be read by lawyers, not ^Migs^. |
| 17:37.17 | ^Migs^ | pfft, I've written and read legal documents before. I have no problem reading them. This is just written poorly. |
| 17:37.26 | ^Migs^ | Used to help my dad go through legal documents in his law office all the time |
| 17:37.51 | ^Migs^ | Is there any more to the text, Sargun? |
| 17:38.22 | sjansen | Writing legal documents is like programming in English. Words have more exact and often unexpectedmeaning, which is why lawyers are hired to read them. |
| 17:39.14 | ^Migs^ | Sure. Lawyers are often aware of nuances you might not expect. I get that. But this isn't a case like that. It's hard to even understand what the document is referring to. |
| 17:39.34 | Sargun | TehLaser, http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_overtime.htm |
| 17:39.35 | brac | [Overtime] |
| 17:39.37 | levi | That particular bit of text also seems to rely on an understanding of the regulations surrounding normal work weeks and the legal alternatives. |
| 17:39.43 | TehLaser | The fact that it's a snippet, not an entire document, probably has something to do with that, Migs. |
| 17:39.46 | ^Migs^ | I think there's more to it |
| 17:39.46 | Sargun | sjansen, lawyers are really fracking expensive. |
| 17:39.49 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I agree TehLaser |
| 17:39.52 | levi | I didn't find that text particularly hard to understand. |
| 17:40.02 | ^Migs^ | why isn't there a niche market for cheap lawyers? |
| 17:40.10 | ^Migs^ | Lionel Hutz & Assoc. |
| 17:40.18 | elg | oh noes!!1 levi is a closet lawyer |
| 17:40.24 | TehLaser | ^Migs^: there sorta is. Prepaid legal stuff. |
| 17:40.28 | sjansen | Sargun: Yeah. Lawyers also carry special insurance that covers giving bad advice. IRC channels don't. |
| 17:40.40 | Sargun | sjansen, but I wont sue an IRC channel. |
| 17:40.45 | levi | Well, my dad is a military lawyer. |
| 17:40.48 | elg | if you do, we kickban you |
| 17:40.49 | Sargun | sjansen, Why do you help people out with their computers in IRC? |
| 17:40.59 | sjansen | Yeah, but somebody might sue you based on advice you took from an IRC channel. |
| 17:41.09 | ^Migs^ | I'd like to become a lawyer and open a law firm that pretty much makes people sell their souls in order to get legal advice, but we charge half what other lawyers do |
| 17:41.18 | Sargun | meh, sjansen, whatever. |
| 17:41.25 | Sargun | /ignore sjansen |
| 17:42.15 | levi | Sargun: Seriously, you can easily get sued for giving legal advice. |
| 17:42.44 | Sargun | levi, ^Migs^ can use the "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer |
| 17:43.15 | ^Migs^ | Are there any online law firms? |
| 17:43.54 | levi | Only lawyers can officially give legal advice, and when they do so, there are liabilities involved. Even if you could find a lawyer to talk to online, they would likely preface anything they say with, "This is not to be considered legal advice" |
| 17:43.54 | ^Migs^ | and if not, why not? |
| 17:43.54 | levi | Sargun: ^Migs^ is not a lawyer; I wouldn't take legal advice from him anyway. |
| 17:43.54 | elg | because the internet is lawless |
| 17:43.58 | Sargun | ^Migs^ probably is better at parsing english than I |
| 17:44.01 | ^Migs^ | If I were a lawyer, I would totally open up a law firm. Then represent people in e-courts. |
| 17:44.10 | ^Migs^ | *open up an online law firm |
| 17:44.14 | elg | like kickbannings |
| 17:44.40 | ^Migs^ | I'd even accept WoW gold as partial payment |
| 17:44.47 | elg | your first client, your baptism by fire, could be mheath |
| 17:44.54 | levi | Heh. |
| 17:45.06 | ^Migs^ | where has mheath been, anyway? |
| 17:45.12 | Sargun | ^Migs^, he's banned from here |
| 17:45.19 | ^Migs^ | whoa, what happened? |
| 17:45.26 | Sargun | ^Migs^, he doesn't remember any of his history |
| 17:45.34 | Sargun | ^Migs^, he denies his entire history |
| 17:45.50 | Sargun | ^Migs^, he apparently lives somewhere on the east coast, he's married, and has a kid. |
| 17:45.51 | ^Migs^ | o...kay? |
| 17:46.06 | ^Migs^ | why is this a bannable offense? |
| 17:46.13 | elg | no kids allowed |
| 17:46.14 | ^Migs^ | weird sure, but, seriously. Who cares? |
| 17:46.15 | Sargun | oh, no, I think he just pissed someone off |
| 17:46.30 | levi | emcnabb, I think, but I don't remember for sure. |
| 17:46.33 | elg | he got banned because people kept asking him not to behave a certain way and he kept doing it |
| 17:46.54 | elg | eventually someone gave the mob ops and the mob kb'd him |
| 17:46.54 | sjansen | someone, as in singular? |
| 17:47.01 | ^Migs^ | I always find it amusing when people concoct elaborate personas on the web, carry them on for awhile, then feel like they're creating this elaborate drama when they reveal their true identities. |
| 17:47.03 | Sargun | Jan 31 12:26:11 <synic> Sargun: aren't you xbmodder and aren't you mheath's friend? |
| 17:47.10 | ^Migs^ | When in reality, nobody cares, and they just forget about it 30 minutes later. |
| 17:47.29 | Sargun | yeah, emcnabb banned him. |
| 17:47.31 | elg | ^Migs^: you have a real identiy? |
| 17:47.33 | Sargun | ^Migs^, I remembered. |
| 17:48.09 | emcnabb | did I ban him? I don't remember |
| 17:48.16 | Sargun | emcnabb, I think so |
| 17:48.20 | elg | ~remember emcnabb |
| 17:48.31 | ibot | How can i forget about emcnabb ? That person is the greatest <fill in whatever is appropriate> in the whole wide world ! |
| 17:48.32 | ^Migs^ | my real identity is a bulgy balding guy who's about to turn 30 |
| 17:48.46 | ^Migs^ | I know, everyone thought I was some young hotshot millionaire, but there it is... |
| 17:48.53 | elg | doesn't want to know what ibot puts in that blank |
| 17:49.05 | ^Migs^ | ~remember migs |
| 17:49.06 | ibot | How can i forget about migs ? That person is the greatest <fill in whatever is appropriate> in the whole wide world ! |
| 18:06.51 | ^Migs^ | okay, I think I get Google Squared now. |
| 18:07.04 | ^Migs^ | the power is in adding your own custom columns, and having it autopopulate |
| 18:07.28 | ^Migs^ | like if I wanted a side-by-side comparison of all wii video games, I could type "wii video games" then add fields like Publisher, Developer, Release Date, etc. |
| 18:11.24 | Sargun | Labor law and overtime law are complex topics and while a layperson can research these topics on their own it may be best to consult a California labor attorney with more complex issues and questions. |
| 18:11.29 | Sargun | hehehe |
| 18:14.21 | ^Migs^ | poppycock! |
| 18:15.01 | ^Migs^ | I think at least 10 IANALs trying to decipher legalese = 1 real lawyer |
| 18:19.03 | Sargun | wants to stab labour code |
| 18:19.15 | Sargun | also wants to stab accountants and tax boards |
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| 18:24.54 | JoshH | what's the best way to insert the contents of a file, into another file, before a line in that file (not by number)? i thought about sed and r, but that appends after, and i don't think "i" can read from a file. i basically need to insert a block of code into a bunch of files, starting before a line that all the files have, but on different line numbers |
| 18:27.24 | JoshH | i'd rather do it with find and exec/xargs than make a script, if possible |
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| 18:28.04 | levi | I wonder why last.fm wants to play Guns'n'Roses so much when I told it to make a station based on U2. |
| 18:28.16 | eightyeight | how can i view what cipher, digest and compression was used when encrypting and signing an email to a recipient? |
| 18:28.38 | eightyeight | with gnupg, that is |
| 18:29.11 | eightyeight | i would imagine this should be possible. i can find out what key was used for the algos, but not the algo itself |
| 18:35.53 | elg | trial and error? |
| 18:36.20 | elg | if it's not in the metadata i doubt you can identify it |
| 18:36.39 | eightyeight | well, digging a bit, i found --list-packets. it seems to reports the algos, but it gives something like 'algo: 16'. bit cryptic |
| 18:36.47 | levi | elg: Have you picked your future employer yet? |
| 18:37.18 | levi | eightyeight: Use the Source, Luke. ;) |
| 18:38.25 | elg | not yet. gonna go lie on a bench and get in touch with my inner stomach lining |
| 18:38.30 | levi | Dammit, last.fm, U2 is not like Guns'n'Roses *or* Bryan Adams. :P |
| 18:38.42 | elg | lol |
| 18:38.49 | eightyeight | levi: yes. i'm guessing i need to go that direction, or the rfc |
| 18:39.15 | eightyeight | i was hoping for an "that was easy" button. not getting one it looks like |
| 18:39.20 | elg | basically it comes down to - do I want to prepare for a research-oriented career? |
| 18:39.49 | elg | and being in the middle of my dissertation i'm afraid my present apathy for research is temporary jadedness |
| 18:40.42 | JoshH | guns n roses is better than u2 though, so you should be happy :) |
| 18:44.38 | levi | elg: Heh. Well, research in the field is probably significantly different than research in academia. |
| 18:45.40 | elg | well at google i would have the chance to do research that overlaps in my 20% time |
| 18:45.53 | levi | They probably won't ask you to write dissertations at Google. :) |
| 18:46.01 | elg | yeah, it would be self-driven |
| 18:46.21 | elg | there's also the potential to move into a research group at google later on |
| 18:46.42 | elg | hang out with the research scientists and research engineers |
| 18:46.56 | elg | kind of like bell labs |
| 18:46.58 | levi | Yeah. |
| 18:47.19 | levi | Google and Microsoft are the places to go if you want to mingle with the luminaries of the field. |
| 18:47.21 | eightyeight | looks like rfc4880 provides the answers |
| 18:48.25 | JoshH | ends up getting the job done with perl |
| 18:48.28 | levi | I'd totally take a job with Microsoft Research if I could get one. :) |
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| 18:56.32 | sjansen | elg: I'd be carefully how many hopes you pin on 20% time. I've read reports there's an unwritten expectation that 20% time produce something obviously marketable. |
| 18:57.44 | TehLaser | My company tried to do something like that. |
| 18:57.57 | elg | yeah, i've wondered the same thing. my recruiter has been a bit vague about it which was a warning flag. but I've corresponded with a research scientist who says I could totally do research in 20% time (he has no vested interest in me joining up, he doesn't know me I just cold-contacted him by email) |
| 18:58.31 | TehLaser | They completely missed the point though. You had to write a proposal, get approval, and then the one person who actually took them up on it got laid off when the project didn't turn up anything useful. |
| 19:05.55 | ^Migs^ | good heavens: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/07/oregon.pregnancy.murder/index.html |
| 19:05.57 | brac | [Newborn dies, mother found dead in crawl space; woman charged - CNN.com] |
| 19:08.06 | sjansen | ^Migs^: Why do you find it necessary to revel in human depravity and share it with everyone else? |
| 19:08.55 | sjansen | Wouldn't you rather spend your day looking at kittehs? |
| 19:08.56 | sjansen | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/06/08/funny-pictures-what-was-inside/ |
| 19:08.56 | eightyeight | http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/popculture/a359/zoom/ |
| 19:09.00 | brac | [ThinkGeek :: God Kills a LOLcat :: Zoom!] |
| 19:10.53 | levi | elg: So, what keeps Facebook in the running? |
| 19:11.08 | eightyeight | 'gpg -vvv -list-packets file.txt' and comparing to rfc4880 gives me the info i'm after |
| 19:11.57 | sjansen | http://punditkitchen.com/ <-- There's some really great stuff in the archive. |
| 19:18.35 | unum | http://roflrazzi.com/upcoming/?pid=10188 |
| 19:18.41 | unum | it's funny because it's true |
| 19:22.28 | neybar | http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/21501 |
| 19:22.53 | neybar | 2 1.5T drives for $200 |
| 19:45.04 | elg | levi: startup culture, potentially lucrative stock, more time off |
| 19:51.52 | sjansen | elg: Will you share your moniez with #utah if Facebook makes you rich? |
| 19:52.12 | elg | i could, uh, buy a new bot. yeah, that's it |
| 20:08.25 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=user@kaptah.deevans.net) |
| 20:28.23 | elg | ~buy sjansen |
| 20:29.04 | ^Migs^ | It's not that I revel in human depravity. Just the opposite, in fact. I found it so disgusting I wanted others to share in my disgust. Psychologically, it helps ease my disgust if others have to suffer through it, too. |
| 20:31.57 | elg | ~disgust ^Migs^ |
| 20:32.03 | elg | ~rlart |
| 20:32.04 | ibot | beats Supaplex senseless with a 50lb Unix manual |
| 20:32.17 | elg | ibot you disgust ^Migs^ |
| 20:33.03 | sjansen | ~punish ^Migs^ |
| 20:33.04 | ibot | ACTION forces ^Migs^ to install and use Windows |
| 20:33.15 | sjansen | If it bothers you, why go looking for it? |
| 20:33.26 | ^Migs^ | I don't. I come across it. |
| 20:33.55 | ^Migs^ | whether someone in another channel or IM shares it, I rarely look for that sort of thing myself. I'm more interested in tech and education-related news. |
| 20:35.39 | sjansen | I avoid mainstream American news media exactly because it wants to waste my time screaming about celebrities, depravity and other pointless stuff. |
| 20:35.48 | sjansen | It's really not that hard to avoid. |
| 20:36.37 | unum | I avoid the stuff about celebrities because I don't care |
| 20:36.52 | unum | I guess I look at the stuf fabout "depravity" because I want to understand it better |
| 20:37.10 | unum | hoping that by better understanding it I may in some small wayhelp it |
| 20:37.31 | sjansen | What's to understand? It's nothing more than the law of large numbers. Given a large enough population, anything and everything will happen. |
| 20:37.58 | unum | our actions influence others |
| 20:38.10 | unum | and by taking proper actions we can decrease suffering |
| 20:38.28 | sjansen | Being able to recite a list every variation over a five year period is not understanding. |
| 20:38.37 | unum | true |
| 20:39.00 | unum | but neither is ignorance of the occurances |
| 20:39.20 | sjansen | It's enough to understand: People suffer, many of them quietly, and being sensitive instead of ignoring warning signs can prevent tragedy. |
| 20:39.52 | unum | how do you know the warning signs if you don't even know the tragedies |
| 20:40.19 | sjansen | The news doesn't delight in educating us in order to change the situation, it delights in titillating us in order to increase viewership. |
| 20:41.01 | unum | I'm sorry you feel that way about all news sources. |
| 20:41.38 | sjansen | unum: Do you honestly think that reading ^Migs^ article will help you recognize a mentally disturbed person more easily? I don't. |
| 20:42.41 | unum | actually ya. I think I'll be more concerned now if someone woman who is not pregnant tells me she is. |
| 20:42.49 | unum | in the past I wouldn't have thought twice about it. |
| 20:42.56 | unum | now I'll probably be a little bit more alert. |
| 20:43.26 | eggyknap | synic: ping |
| 20:44.51 | sjansen | So you'd live in fear because of my elementary gym teacher? We never would have guessed she was pregnant because she never showed until the last couple months, and even then she only looked like she was in here first or second month. |
| 20:45.23 | unum | I know someone like that as well. I simply said I'd be more alert. not live in fear |
| 20:45.30 | sjansen | I really don't see how gradually building a higher and higher level of paranoia is healthy. |
| 20:45.50 | unum | so we would all be better off if we didn't pay attention to current events? |
| 20:46.05 | neybar | heh, have you talked to many women about their current pregnant state? It is usually a fairly sensitive subject. How often have you or haven't you authenticated a claim of being pregnant unless you were a *very* interested party? |
| 20:46.49 | unum | neybar: really it would probably only alert me if there were other factors as well. |
| 20:47.11 | unum | but really I was talking more abstractly originally |
| 20:47.24 | unum | i think it's good to know what's going on the world arround you generally speaking |
| 20:47.32 | unum | though that one case may be hard to defend |
| 20:47.33 | sjansen | We should be discussing how to restructure our financial system, change American financial behavior, fix our health care system, reduce government overhead while effectively increasing security without compromising personal liberty... |
| 20:47.56 | unum | sjansen: and how am I to learn about those things. |
| 20:47.59 | sjansen | There a million different things we need to worry about, none of which Nancy Grace will spend an hour screaming at us about. |
| 20:48.21 | unum | my newspaper informs me about many of those things. |
| 20:48.25 | unum | especially local things |
| 20:48.52 | sjansen | So long as we're contributing to depravity by turning it into a lucrative market without our rubber necking, the American media won't change. |
| 20:49.05 | sjansen | s/without/by our/ |
| 20:49.32 | neybar | sjansen: media is too big to fail... I'm not sure us not participating will impact the availability of it. |
| 20:50.08 | sjansen | The British empire is too big to fail, I'm not sure that a bunch of Indians will impact it by making their own salt. |
| 20:50.14 | tensai | neybar: really? the new york times is nearly bankrupt |
| 20:51.16 | neybar | I didn't say it shouldn't fail. I'm going to be very interested to see if it actually does though. |
| 20:51.25 | tensai | somebody calculated that the ny times could give all their subscribers a kindle and switch them to digital distribution cheaper than it could actually print the paper |
| 20:51.43 | sjansen | neybar: If you don't understand the reference I'm making, you've made my point. People claim they want to know every detail of the latest shocking behavior of some looney because it will help them to understand humanity better. It won't. It will only help with understanding loonies. If you want to understand humanity, learn history. |
| 20:53.00 | neybar | agreed, I was being sarcastic. I forgot to raise my hand when I make my "too big to fail" statment. |
| 20:53.22 | unum | the real question is will the new forms of "reporting" be able to match the old forms |
| 20:53.32 | unum | in some ways I agree the new forms are better |
| 20:53.39 | Jayce^ | neybar++ for the 'sarcasm hand' reference |
| 20:54.04 | unum | groklaw was is far more accurate about the topics it covers than the tribune |
| 20:54.27 | sjansen | I'm sure we'll be fine. "Independent" journalism is a _very_ recent invention, and was always a half truth anyway. |
| 20:54.31 | unum | but will the groklaws get drowned out by the organizations with an ax to grind |
| 20:54.58 | unum | sjansen: by very recent would you say last one hundred years? |
| 20:55.08 | sjansen | Less than that. |
| 20:55.40 | unum | I know there was a time when most newspapers were expected to have their slant |
| 20:56.27 | unum | at the turn of the century it was still fairly common |
| 20:56.41 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War |
| 20:57.00 | unum | hearst's war :) |
| 20:57.26 | sjansen | Claiming that Hearst invented the Spanish American war is a bit of a stretch, but he was a significant contributing factor. |
| 20:58.05 | levi | So, the Radiohead channel on last.fm is way cooler than the U2 channel. |
| 20:58.10 | jsmith | Ah, the heady days of "yellow" journalism... |
| 20:58.20 | levi | Rosebud! |
| 20:59.05 | unum | which lead to such horrible things as sanitation standards in food processing |
| 20:59.19 | unum | I want the feces back in my food!!!! Darn government!!! |
| 20:59.59 | sjansen | Despite constant muck raking, propaganda, and corruption, we've managed to end slavery, grant universal suffrage, outlaw discrimination, become a super power, etc. |
| 21:00.32 | unum | I tend to think that they worked together. |
| 21:00.44 | unum | but it all depends on your definition of muck raking |
| 21:01.39 | sjansen | We'll be okay. But we'll be a lot happier when we learn to turn away from the unhelpful dark gossip and focus on achievement, statistically significant issues and kittehs. |
| 21:02.03 | levi | Teh kittehs! |
| 21:02.08 | stderr | Well it certainly hasn't been all sunshine, either. |
| 21:02.35 | unum | I wonder what we will do with the new media. Will it be more Limbaugh, and huffington journal, or more groklaw and schneier |
| 21:02.42 | unum | or a lot of both |
| 21:02.57 | sjansen | No, but the statistical probability that you or someone you know will be murdered and hidden in a basement is very low. The probability that you will need effective healthcare is high. |
| 21:03.03 | unum | with most people comsuming limbaugh and huffington type stuff |
| 21:03.04 | stderr | The United States has accumulated some notable opposition for its unwavering support of Israel and our meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. We've supported dictators in countries and then had to face _our own weaponry_ - not to mention forces we trained - a couple decades later. |
| 21:03.39 | unum | stderr: in the case of iran it didn't take decades |
| 21:03.48 | levi | stderr: You're agreeing with sjansen, then? |
| 21:03.57 | sjansen | stderr: Exactly. These are the statistically significant issues we should be discussing. Not Paris Hilton's latest crotch shot. |
| 21:04.11 | levi | Ugh, I did not need that mental image. |
| 21:04.15 | stderr | Well that's by demand |
| 21:04.17 | unum | sjansen: I could agree with that, but I do think main stream media covers both |
| 21:04.21 | levi | ~shame sjansen |
| 21:04.22 | ibot | Shame on you sjansen! |
| 21:04.23 | stderr | The media is going to sell what... sells. |
| 21:04.35 | unum | stderr: true |
| 21:04.42 | stderr | So look to your left and right. The state of the media is a symptom, it isn't the problem. |
| 21:04.50 | sjansen | stderr: So stop buying it. And when someone IM's you a link, tell them to know it off. |
| 21:04.52 | levi | The problem with rule by market is that you get the lowest common denominator. |
| 21:05.16 | sjansen | It's not enough to say "it's other people's fault". If you're staying silent, it's your fault too. |
| 21:05.23 | stderr | If I'm staying silent? |
| 21:05.29 | stderr | scratches his head |
| 21:05.30 | unum | levi: so you're familiar with the market for lemons theory then? |
| 21:05.51 | unum | stderr: I'm staying silent and was even defending it |
| 21:05.59 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@99-203-12-189.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 21:05.59 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:06.03 | stderr | I'm pretty involved in various veteran's organizations and have been for a while. |
| 21:06.12 | macnewbold | ~VFW++ |
| 21:06.14 | stderr | I'm not one to stay silent. |
| 21:06.20 | sjansen | I'm not so nearly pessimistic about people as many. I just think they haven't taken time to examine the consequences of their decisions. |
| 21:06.38 | levi | unum: I'd heard of it before, but it wasn't at the front of my mind. |
| 21:06.51 | unum | levi: you summed it up pretty well there |
| 21:06.58 | sjansen | Many times throughout history, we've proven ourselves capable of making hard decisions, but we have to have enough information to understand the stakes. |
| 21:07.30 | stderr | We've also proven we can make blatant, horrible mistakes too. |
| 21:07.33 | levi | sjansen: Well, I'm not pessimistic about people in general, but I am pessimistic about some aspects of our culture here. |
| 21:08.04 | sjansen | stderr: you == generic you (one) |
| 21:08.35 | levi | As a people, we're being trained *not* to think too deeply about things. |
| 21:08.54 | sjansen | Most people making the "but the market is asking for it" argument are looking for an excuse. |
| 21:09.08 | stderr | levi: There's been an anti-intellectual movement for a while now. |
| 21:09.35 | unum | I'm really disappointed that out of the 12 people in my family I'm one of two who doesn't hate history |
| 21:09.45 | levi | Not only is anti-intellectualism a problem, but more and more effective advertising and marketing campaigns. |
| 21:13.05 | levi | Human beings are not rational by default, we are intuitive and emotional beings with the capability of post-hoc rational analysis of decisions. That capability needs to be nurtured and culturally reinforced for it to lead to rational behavior. |
| 21:13.13 | stderr | the soundbyte culture as well as the general anti-intellectual wave has killed any sort of rational debate on a public level. |
| 21:14.38 | sjansen | I wouldn't say it has killed it, but is doing a very effective job of obscuring it. |
| 21:15.16 | sjansen | There's still a hardy core of people who are attempting rational debate. |
| 21:16.32 | levi | The problem is that it's just a core of people. They still have to resort to irrational appeal to bring enough people to their side to cause any change. |
| 21:16.33 | stderr | well, yea, agreed. I'm a little overly pessimistic about these sorts of things. |
| 21:16.57 | levi | I guess they've always had to do so, though. |
| 21:17.30 | unum | discussing important things in public is considered taboo |
| 21:18.10 | sjansen | I used to be quite pessimistic, but as I got older I noticed how a lot of thing tend to work themselves out after those will the most passion but shortest attention span move on to something else. |
| 21:19.42 | sjansen | We're doomed to be forever lurching back and forth without settling in an optimal policy, but so long as we don't get too far from the target before the next cycle, we'll be fine. (Well, most of us. Sadly, a small number do get hurt horribly. But no one has found a better system yet.) |
| 21:19.49 | levi | I am, in general, optimistic about the future. But I'm not really optimistic about people in general becoming any more rational or well-informed. |
| 21:20.17 | elg | i'm generally optimistic about movies |
| 21:20.49 | stderr | anyone else see Up in 3D? |
| 21:20.50 | stderr | :) |
| 21:21.00 | elg | no but I want to |
| 21:21.06 | stderr | it's really good. |
| 21:21.21 | elg | i'm afraid i'll hate the 3d and throw away $$ |
| 21:21.42 | elg | not that i wouldn't like the 3d effect, but that it won't work over my glasses or my eyes are too far apart or something like that |
| 21:21.48 | levi | I'd like to see Up, but I don't really care one way or another about 3d. |
| 21:21.54 | elg | i haven't tried this new 3d thing yet. but the old one never worked right for me. |
| 21:22.03 | levi | elg: Which old one? |
| 21:22.03 | stderr | ah. my girlfriend has glasses and wore the 3D glasses over hers, they worked fine. |
| 21:22.25 | elg | levi: the color ones, and also whatever they use at disneyworld |
| 21:22.30 | levi | Are these the polarized ones? |
| 21:22.32 | elg | on the honey shrunk the audience and bugs life rides |
| 21:22.36 | *** join/#utah sp (n=0_1@picea.shapeless.org) |
| 21:22.47 | stderr | yea, polarized ones. |
| 21:22.54 | elg | which, btw, scare the daylights out of little kids |
| 21:24.08 | elg | my poor 4.5yo hated those much more than splash mountain. though after splash mountain he didn't want to go on other roller coasters :) later on - a week or two later - he was playing with his cars and playing out splash mountain, so I think it's a good memory overall. he'll forget the terror and remember it fondly |
| 21:24.13 | elg | probably not so for the 3d gimmick movies |
| 21:25.54 | ^Migs^ | how the heck do I get an OpenOffice 3.x headless RPM? |
| 21:27.26 | tensai | get an openoffice 3.x rpm and cut its head off |
| 21:27.32 | tensai | ~rimshot |
| 21:27.32 | ibot | ba-dum CHH |
| 21:28.00 | ^Migs^ | that made me snort, haha |
| 21:28.10 | ^Migs^ | and I don't toss around snorts lightly |
| 21:28.19 | elg | sure, blame your coke problem on tensai |
| 21:29.10 | elg | is amused to be in the middle of a bidding war with two recruiters one on each coast |
| 21:29.11 | jsmith | ^Migs^: "yum install openoffice.org-headless" worked for me :-p |
| 21:29.14 | sjansen | ^Migs^: Most likely? Build your own RPM. RPM spec files can include flags for enabling or disabling features when building custom packages. I wouldn't hold your breath though. |
| 21:29.49 | sjansen | ORLY? |
| 21:30.06 | ^Migs^ | which distro, jsmith? |
| 21:30.20 | sjansen | didn't expect openoffice.org-headless to exist |
| 21:30.23 | ^Migs^ | neither did I |
| 21:31.41 | jsmith | sjansen: Both Fedora 10 and (soon to be) 11 |
| 21:33.11 | ^Migs^ | wonder if those RPMs would work in RHEL4 |
| 21:33.35 | sjansen | snorts |
| 21:33.40 | ^Migs^ | :) |
| 21:37.39 | goozbach | Jayce^: you'll enjoy this, I went to the gun show on Saturday... and I ran into my F5 technical rep. |
| 21:37.52 | goozbach | yeah a techie with a gun! |
| 21:37.54 | Jayce^ | :-D |
| 21:38.00 | Jayce^ | you bring home anything fun? |
| 21:38.14 | goozbach | methinks it's time to try and start the GA chapter of GeeksWithGuns |
| 21:38.15 | Jayce^ | or was everything stripped clean, and overpriced as most our local shows are? |
| 21:39.03 | tensai | that was pretty awesome of my cell phone to freeze up when I tried to answer a call |
| 21:39.10 | tensai | windows mobile ftw |
| 21:39.18 | Jayce^ | local company that I deal with a lot that does factory reloading, hasn't been able to get primers for over a month :( |
| 21:39.35 | Jayce^ | tensai: I had a treo that developed that behavior too, amazing stuff |
| 21:41.13 | unum | oddly enough I'm getting a ccp |
| 21:41.38 | unum | maybe I'll get a really big knife |
| 21:41.49 | Jayce^ | 25% of Utahns have one :) |
| 21:41.53 | jsmith | goozbach: I was in ATL for 4 hours on Saturday... I should have called you |
| 21:42.11 | unum | Jayce^: is that based on how many have been issued. or how many have been issued to utahns? |
| 21:42.22 | Jayce^ | utahns.. non-residents is a different bucket |
| 21:42.34 | goozbach | Jayce^: way pricey |
| 21:42.49 | goozbach | almost $2k for a HK usp .45 |
| 21:42.54 | unum | I hope that stat means 25% of adults |
| 21:43.07 | stderr | goozbach: holy crap. |
| 21:43.21 | Jayce^ | dang! ekim got a used one off ksl for *way* less than that |
| 21:43.35 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 21:43.55 | goozbach | yeah, a new one from the local gun shop is only about $1200 $1300 |
| 21:44.15 | goozbach | saw two P90S |
| 21:44.16 | levi | I enjoyed shooting guns when I was younger, but I never got the gun bug. |
| 21:44.31 | goozbach | but they were hefty as well |
| 21:44.37 | goozbach | one was used for 1600 |
| 21:44.43 | Sargun | tensai, palm pre doesn't freeze. |
| 21:44.50 | goozbach | the other was new, at just under 1900 |
| 21:45.07 | stderr | http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130855632 <- goozbach |
| 21:45.08 | brac | [H&K HK USP CT .45 Pistol w/ Threaded Barrel & MORE : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com] |
| 21:45.59 | goozbach | Jayce^: that's the reason my account rep went to the show, he bought *ALL* of the primers for whatever caliber he was reloading from the vendor. |
| 21:46.25 | Jayce^ | I still don't have a press, and yet I'm buying primers/brass/etc |
| 21:46.44 | Sargun | Grr, google apps suck |
| 21:46.53 | levi | Sargun sucks. |
| 21:47.09 | levi | Sargun: Er, why do they suck? |
| 21:47.10 | Jayce^ | really sucks, I had a nice multi-year plan of what I was buying, and when, how to save for it, etc.. last two years have really thrown things off |
| 21:47.25 | goozbach | that does suck |
| 21:47.29 | Sargun | levi, well, I've just been seeing a lot of freezing of their apps on my Pre. |
| 21:47.57 | levi | Sargun: Is that Google apps sucking or the javascript engine on the Pre sucking? |
| 21:48.49 | stderr | Jayce^: but you can get presses pretty cheap, right? I've only seen them at shows, I've never actually operated one before. |
| 21:49.05 | sjansen | Sargun: Let me fix that for you. "It's too early to know if Palm Pre doesn't freeze." |
| 21:49.31 | Jayce^ | stderr: depends on the press, but yeah, they are common, and much less expensive.. so get the bullet parts now, then grab a rockchucker kit for like $350 |
| 21:49.39 | Jayce^ | or step up to a dylan press or such |
| 21:49.41 | stderr | Jayce^: ah cool. |
| 21:51.23 | Sargun | sjansen, I haven't seen any other apps locking up on here |
| 21:51.24 | unum | just saw an ad in facebook. colbert in iraq |
| 21:51.45 | sjansen | Sargun: And you've owned it all of what? 48 hours? |
| 21:51.53 | Jayce^ | http://www.break.com/index/signs-the-economy-is-getting-rough.html |
| 21:51.54 | brac | [Tough Economic Times Video] |
| 21:52.04 | Sargun | 72 |
| 21:52.08 | sjansen | Come back when you phone doesn't hold it's original charge... and you're able to grow facial hair. :-P |
| 21:52.27 | stderr | might be waiting a while. |
| 21:52.35 | Sargun | sjansen, Also, on the original treo I would have lots of issues with google maps |
| 21:53.02 | Sargun | stderr, why do you say that |
| 21:53.41 | stderr | aren't you like 14? |
| 21:53.43 | stderr | _can_ you grow facial hair? |
| 21:53.46 | sjansen | Between the store model and my boss's phone, I've probably spent ~45 minutes playing with the Pre. Doesn't take long to find flaws. Like the really sucky keyboard. The keyboard sucked. The store model was only 8 hours old and already acting quirky. (Noticable lag, low speaker volume, insensitive accelerometer) |
| 21:54.14 | sjansen | That said, I'm still planning on buying one. |
| 21:54.28 | stderr | curses AT&T |
| 21:54.36 | Sargun | stderr, heh. |
| 21:54.47 | Jayce^ | stderr: just read about the tethering? |
| 21:54.51 | Jayce^ | or the pricing? |
| 21:55.04 | stderr | Jayce^: well I read about it this morning, I've been cursing them for a couple hours now, just vocalized it. |
| 21:55.05 | Sargun | sjansen, did the store model have the latest software on it? |
| 21:55.12 | stderr | (my throat locked up after the news) |
| 21:55.28 | Jayce^ | just goes to show where most of the problems lie :) |
| 21:55.34 | stderr | tis true |
| 21:55.49 | sjansen | Jayce^: What's this? |
| 21:55.50 | Jayce^ | and maybe apple will use this to leverage other companies to 'bidding' more for next years contract |
| 21:56.03 | Jayce^ | sjansen: new iphones announced today, and new os version |
| 21:56.27 | Jayce^ | they finally are releasing tethering, but not with AT&T, basically made it obvious who is blocking it |
| 21:56.28 | levi | New feature! Tethering via USB and Bluetooth! |
| 21:56.36 | levi | Except... AT&T won't support it. |
| 21:57.00 | Jayce^ | and a lot lower prices, except of course AT&T is going to dink over existing customers as usual |
| 21:57.06 | stderr | wonder how much AT&T will charge for it if/when they do cave. |
| 21:57.07 | Sargun | sjansen, I talked to someone who works at palm. He said internally they tested tethering over WiFi |
| 21:57.40 | Sargun | sjansen, The phone makes an ad-hoc network which you can attach to, and it'll run a dhcp server & things |
| 21:57.44 | Sargun | which sounds pretty awesome |
| 21:57.59 | levi | AT&T is taking their sweet time supporting MMS on the new iPhone too. |
| 21:58.17 | Jayce^ | yeah, no AT&T support until late summer.. |
| 21:58.20 | Jayce^ | but everybody else can :) |
| 21:58.23 | jsmith | already has a phone on the AT&T network that will tehter, do MMS, etc. |
| 21:58.33 | Sargun | jsmith, BB? |
| 21:58.40 | jsmith | Sargun: Nokia E71 |
| 21:58.44 | Sargun | Ah, sexy. |
| 21:58.49 | Sargun | I want the Nokia N97 |
| 21:58.52 | jsmith | Yeah... even tethers to Linux just fine |
| 21:59.28 | Jayce^ | yeah, I did it in my treo too, and I've done it on a modded iphone for quite a while, but they do what they can to block it |
| 22:00.32 | Sargun | Jayce^, I don't think Apple actually wants to block the jailbroken iPhone |
| 22:00.36 | levi | I'm curious what photos from the new iPhone will look like. |
| 22:00.42 | Sargun | I think the actions they take are just to appease T |
| 22:00.46 | Jayce^ | not apple, AT&T |
| 22:01.05 | Jayce^ | levi: I'm really interested in the touch interface for focusing |
| 22:01.34 | levi | Speaking of cameras, I got a 50mm f/1.4 lens for my Pentax K100D. |
| 22:01.40 | levi | I love it. :) |
| 22:03.06 | stderr | just purchased a new body myself |
| 22:03.30 | Jayce^ | must be nice timing, my wife's T1i shows up wednesday :) |
| 22:03.38 | sjansen | No way I'm doing business with AT&T. |
| 22:06.27 | levi | I'm too cheap to get a fancy DSLR body. |
| 22:06.39 | levi | I'm quite happy with my current one, anyway. |
| 22:07.12 | levi | HD video would be nice, though. |
| 22:08.52 | Sargun | wonders when we'll see 3rd party pre batteries |
| 22:13.16 | stderr | levi: D5000 is pretty modestly priced. |
| 22:13.32 | stderr | I was about to get one but I went with the D90 because of the builtin motor |
| 22:14.27 | levi | stderr: My K100D was even more modestly priced, and it has both a builtin autofocus motor and builtin shake reduction. |
| 22:22.07 | goozbach | elg: you know gnuplot, don't you? |
| 22:22.14 | goozbach | how do I exit gracefully? |
| 22:22.17 | elg | aye capn |
| 22:22.19 | elg | ctrl-d |
| 22:22.27 | goozbach | ty |
| 22:22.30 | elg | and probably something else, but that's what I do |
| 22:23.12 | fugue88 | goozbach: exit and quit also work |
| 22:24.09 | goozbach | that's the thing, neither of those seem to work |
| 22:25.13 | goozbach | ohh ctrl-d doesn't work either |
| 22:27.28 | elg | hm |
| 22:27.29 | elg | why not? |
| 22:28.58 | goozbach | no idea, |
| 22:29.09 | goozbach | strace tells me it's waiting on a futex |
| 22:29.19 | goozbach | but I have no ide why |
| 22:29.29 | elg | do you have graphs open? what terminal are you using? |
| 22:29.46 | elg | x11? there's some wx windows one I think? |
| 22:39.07 | goozbach | wxt |
| 22:45.10 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 23:28.06 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-2a09ebefdd7747d4) |
| 23:48.33 | maquis | stderr: one of my friends has... uh... whatever the newest high-end nikon is... it was like 8K or something for the body |
| 23:48.54 | maquis | i've got a Canon Digital Rebel XT... with the kit lens and one zoom lens... |
| 23:49.56 | stderr | maquis: D3X? |
| 23:49.59 | stderr | (the Nikon) |
| 23:50.13 | maquis | stderr: i don't remember... lemme ask |
| 23:50.25 | stderr | coo' |
| 23:55.36 | maquis | stderr: he hasn't gotten back to me yet, but i think it might've been the d700... looks like it's a bit lower in price, but i think he got it when it first came out |
| 23:55.49 | maquis | i just remember looking at the price and thinking he was crazy :P |
| 23:57.43 | stderr | maquis: haha, yea, my Dad bought the D700. It's pretty awesome. |
| 23:57.56 | stderr | (and way too much for me to justify paying for) |