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| 06:21.29 | levi | Yay, my new myth frontend is alive! Ubuntu is going on as we speak. |
| 06:22.29 | levi | Now I need to buy another HDMI cable. |
| 06:23.01 | Sargun | good job. |
| 06:51.00 | Tene | levi: have you seen this Google Wave stuff? |
| 07:52.22 | levi | Tene: Nope... what is it? |
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| 15:11.15 | whiteley | how should I start to teach my 8-year old how to code? |
| 15:20.55 | unum | XO laptop? |
| 15:21.07 | unum | I learned at that age on basic |
| 15:21.21 | unum | commodore 128 basic and gwbasic |
| 15:27.41 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=user@97-117-71-42.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 15:33.57 | whiteley | he wants to learn to code, but thinks he can learn something quickly that will allow him to write a cool game. |
| 15:34.14 | whiteley | I'm afraid if I start him out with console python apps or something, he will quickly lose interest. |
| 15:36.10 | whiteley | I wonder if something like a game level editor would be an interesting place to start instead. |
| 15:36.19 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 15:38.01 | goozbach | whiteley: sign him up for the atmosphir beta |
| 15:38.10 | goozbach | or get a copy of "snake wrangling for kids" |
| 15:38.23 | goozbach | http://www.briggs.net.nz/log/writing/snake-wrangling-for-kids/ |
| 15:38.42 | goozbach | http://atmosphir.com/ |
| 15:39.20 | jshipley | whiteley: you could try starting him out with pygame instead of starting with console python |
| 15:40.18 | goozbach | here's an interesting idea: http://jackcoughonsoftware.blogspot.com/2009/05/teaching-functional-programming-to-kids.html |
| 15:40.52 | goozbach | teach fundamentals |
| 15:41.08 | goozbach | SWFK is more for the 10-12 or older range methinks |
| 15:43.44 | jshipley | Here's a blog I read a while about teaching kids to code... quite a bit of fun: http://www.bluej.org/mrt/?p=39 |
| 15:44.24 | jshipley | This is using java/greenfoot, not python/pygame, but it should still be somewhat applicable |
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| 16:40.43 | Sargun | I love the things I've created. |
| 16:40.45 | Sargun | I'm amazing. |
| 16:40.47 | Sargun | :-P |
| 16:45.47 | ^Migs^ | grats! |
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| 16:48.36 | ^Migs^ | greenfoot is sweet. I'm adding that to our district's Links of the Day |
| 16:50.01 | Sargun | greenfoot? |
| 16:50.03 | Sargun | purplefood. |
| 16:50.20 | Sargun | http://www.greenfoot.org/getting-started/ |
| 16:50.36 | Sargun | oh neat |
| 16:50.45 | Sargun | I'll give this to a non-programmer |
| 16:51.38 | beelzebob | question for you rh people... |
| 16:51.56 | beelzebob | how would you fix an issue with a corrupted rpm db... |
| 16:52.19 | beelzebob | let's say you restored a server's / partition, but kept /var |
| 16:52.26 | beelzebob | then did a yum update |
| 16:53.17 | beelzebob | which applied updates based on an rpm db somewhere in /var, but does not know that / was actually much older |
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| 17:08.37 | synic | rsimpkins: bleh. SyncIQ isn't my favorite. |
| 17:23.01 | sinuhe | The new --allow-unsupported-modules of SUSE is annoying. |
| 17:23.12 | sinuhe | (s/SUSE/SUSE's modprobe/) |
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| 17:29.37 | beelzebob | hm. I guess I'll just sync over the old /var/lib/rpm and update again.. |
| 17:35.22 | goozbach | there's always scratch http://scratch.mit.edu/ |
| 17:35.55 | goozbach | beelzebob: it it just curruption? |
| 17:36.01 | goozbach | or is it out of date |
| 17:36.12 | goozbach | ? |
| 17:40.13 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 17:45.53 | beelzebob | goozbach: it's just out of date |
| 17:46.28 | beelzebob | I recovered / using an old image, but var held current data |
| 17:47.29 | goozbach | i see, then you did the right thing |
| 17:47.41 | goozbach | make /var/lib/rpm match what / has |
| 17:48.09 | beelzebob | well, what it _did_ have :) |
| 17:48.17 | beelzebob | since I updated using the current /var |
| 17:48.30 | beelzebob | I assume though, that those same updates will be re-applied, and I won't have to worry |
| 17:49.57 | whiteley | beelzebob: bad assumption, unless you get lucky. |
| 17:50.04 | whiteley | beelzebob: can you run the update with --justdb? |
| 17:50.31 | beelzebob | I probably could have :) |
| 17:58.14 | beelzebob | it looks like all the packages that were updated the first time were updated the second time |
| 17:58.25 | whiteley | right. |
| 17:58.33 | whiteley | and if you're lucky, nothing broke. |
| 17:58.52 | whiteley | the problem is, %pre, %post, %postun, %preun scripts are kept in the db. |
| 17:59.23 | whiteley | so, during the upgrade, you were running %preun scripts that didn't match the actual files installed under / |
| 17:59.42 | levi | Good afternoon, folks. Well, almost afternoon, anyway. |
| 17:59.54 | beelzebob | I see |
| 17:59.58 | whiteley | levi: glad to see you decided to wake up. |
| 18:00.06 | beelzebob | I can check what scripts were run though, right? |
| 18:00.22 | whiteley | not sure how you would do that. |
| 18:00.27 | whiteley | if you still have a backup of the old db, |
| 18:00.33 | beelzebob | I do |
| 18:00.44 | whiteley | you could do rpm -q --scripts <package> for all the packages that were upgraded. |
| 18:00.47 | whiteley | and examine them. |
| 18:01.00 | levi | whiteley: I've been awake for far too long, just had my head stuck in debugging. |
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| 18:09.24 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 18:09.51 | emcnabb | how do I turn of the on join message? |
| 18:10.04 | emcnabb | can never remember |
| 18:11.07 | beelzebob | whiteley: thanks for the tip |
| 18:13.52 | Sargun | ~onjoin -emcnabb |
| 18:13.53 | ibot | Sargun: ok |
| 18:13.56 | Sargun | emcnabb, try it now |
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| 18:15.54 | emcnabb | cool, much better :-) |
| 18:15.57 | emcnabb | Sargun++ |
| 18:16.54 | Sargun | Just shows I've been around ibot too long |
| 18:20.18 | unum | lessig has a good blog post up, on why it's wrong to call free software, etc socialism |
| 18:25.56 | JoshH | i think only complete morons don't think it's wrong to call it socialism |
| 18:26.25 | JoshH | even the people in this channel who call obama a socialist don't call free software socialist |
| 18:38.03 | levi | unum: Except he does exactly what he says not to do by redefining Socialism to be, at its heart, coercive. I think getting a politically diverse set of people to actually agree on a definition of socialism would be problematic. :) |
| 18:38.40 | unum | levi: lessig believes that 95% of people think of socialism as a negative thing |
| 18:39.14 | unum | why I agree that everyone would give different definitions I do agree that most would call a it a bad thing |
| 18:39.29 | unum | in the past I've been guilty of using that term, but I think he's right |
| 18:39.34 | levi | unum: I know plenty of people who think socialism is, generally, a good thing. |
| 18:39.38 | unum | and his next post is awesome! |
| 18:42.08 | JoshH | a post about why people shouldn't think free software is socialism makes as much sense as a post about why people shouldn't think that murder is ok |
| 18:42.20 | JoshH | both are essentially saying that people shouldn't be utterly stupid |
| 18:42.48 | JoshH | i've never even heard anyone say that free software is socialism, except for maybe the occasional ballmer quote |
| 18:45.37 | RyanE | Lessig's post reminds me of Benson's talk about how the United Order was not socialism. |
| 18:46.06 | RyanE | or maybe it was Communism... |
| 18:47.45 | unum | JoshH: I've seen plenty. |
| 18:48.32 | JoshH | from people who aren't raving lunatics? |
| 18:48.46 | unum | when manithree comes back remind me to show him this:http://clubtroppo.com.au/ |
| 18:49.00 | unum | JoshH: the guy lessig quotes is not a raving lunatic |
| 18:49.09 | JoshH | well, i haven't read the post |
| 18:49.26 | JoshH | but he'd probably qualify as a moron by my standards |
| 18:49.37 | unum | I tend to do it as well sometimes, because I don't see socialism as a bad thing |
| 18:50.00 | unum | I've always thought as communism as socialism my coercion |
| 18:50.22 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@unwired-42.guest.inscc.utah.edu) |
| 18:50.23 | brac | ~onjoin findlay ~say -chat ~say -chat ~lart Supaplex |
| 18:50.23 | ibot | ok, brac |
| 18:50.45 | findlay | ~rent space |
| 18:50.52 | JoshH | i think socialism is a type of government enforced economic system, and free software is people making software that is free |
| 18:51.05 | JoshH | but maybe my definitions are just narrow |
| 18:51.56 | unum | lessig's argument is 95% of people think like you. and us other 5% are making things confusing and hurting these new social systems by calling them socialism |
| 18:54.26 | findlay | I thought socialism was just a narcissistic academic vagary until recently when the web enabled well meaning programmers to consign whole generations of people to SocialMedia sites by constructing SociallyAwareAsynchronous asinine facebook apps |
| 18:55.14 | levi | The ultimate goal of Marxist socialism is elimination of the state entirely. |
| 18:55.36 | findlay | and the adding of 1001 facebook apps to levi's fb page |
| 18:56.10 | findlay | actually, why don't we just put your entire page in a <blink></blink>, levi? |
| 18:56.22 | unum | levi: I was reading that yesterday on wikipedia, and I realized anarchy and communism really are the exact same thing |
| 18:56.47 | levi | unum: For some variants of communism and anarchism, yes. |
| 18:56.53 | unum | levi: true |
| 18:56.59 | JoshH | i always thought that the "free software is socialist" argument was just something spouted by republican businessmen to help convince governments not to use open source software, not something that anyone with a brain actually took seriously |
| 18:57.39 | levi | JoshH: Largely that is true, but serious socialists could also argue that it is socialist as a point in socialism's favor. |
| 18:57.47 | levi | "See, it works in Free Software!" |
| 18:58.04 | levi | These would be the anarcho-socialists. |
| 18:58.11 | unum | as we are saying it all depends on you definition of socialism |
| 18:58.24 | unum | I should take the political compass test again |
| 18:58.27 | unum | it's been a while |
| 18:58.34 | levi | There are also anarcho-capitalists, though. |
| 18:58.43 | levi | These are the extreme libertarians. |
| 18:58.53 | levi | Murray Rothbard, etc. |
| 18:59.47 | JoshH | ya, i've known a few of those |
| 19:00.39 | JoshH | i don't really consider them anarchists though, since it seems they want to have a government, just one made up entirely of private corporations that owns and runs everything |
| 19:01.26 | JoshH | they say things like "if it would be profitable have a road running to your driveway, then they would build it" |
| 19:01.38 | levi | Well, I believe Rothbard considered himself an anarchist, at least later on. |
| 19:01.48 | JoshH | i'm not familiar with him |
| 19:01.50 | levi | I mean, he founded anarcho-capitalism. |
| 19:02.03 | JoshH | just talkign about the ones i've known personally |
| 19:02.20 | levi | He's a well-known Austrian-school economist, so you'll hear him often quoted by libertarians in economic discussions. |
| 19:02.49 | levi | He was also an Objectivist for a while, part of Ayn Rand's inner circle, before they had a falling out of some sort. |
| 19:02.54 | JoshH | maybe i have, but i mostly hear about rand |
| 19:03.22 | JoshH | i don't think the people i'm talking about do a whole lot of reading and thinking though |
| 19:03.39 | levi | I got a chuckle while I was watching season 1 on Andromeda with my wife and I saw Tyr lounging while reading 'The Fountainhead'. |
| 19:36.37 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-71-42.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 19:36.43 | sjansen | http://roflrazzi.com/2009/05/29/celebrity-pictures-laurence-fishburne-not-smart/ |
| 19:37.28 | sjansen | http://punditkitchen.com/2009/05/28/political-pictures-right-crazy/ |
| 19:37.51 | levi | Huh, Albert Einstein was a socialist. |
| 19:38.38 | unum | oddly enough the nazi is an abbreviation of a very long party name that includes the word socialist |
| 19:38.46 | unum | s/the// |
| 19:38.55 | levi | Indeed. |
| 19:40.32 | levi | Einstein wrote an article for the very first issue of the Monthly Review, a socialist magazine that started in 1949. His article was called 'Why Socialism?' and was reprinted in the May 2009 issue on its 60th anniversary. |
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| 19:42.18 | unum | once had a copy of the daily worker |
| 19:42.42 | sjansen | http://failblog.org/2009/05/28/gordon-brown-fail/ |
| 19:46.51 | levi | Anyway, I still think that lessig article sucks. |
| 19:47.48 | tensai | that just proves you're a free software socialist hippie |
| 19:48.15 | levi | Ha ha. I'm hardly a Free Software booster. |
| 19:49.42 | tensai | ah yes, I recall how much you liked the fsf's ddos of apple stores |
| 19:50.08 | levi | You must have missed a lot of my rants if that's the only one you remember. :) |
| 19:51.02 | tensai | that was the one I seem to recall had the most passion |
| 19:51.41 | stderr | I think Einstein's "Why Socialism?" article raised more questions then it answered (regarding socialism) |
| 19:52.23 | tensai | lvm++ |
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| 19:53.05 | levi | I skimmed through it, and it looked like that was the intent. And given its position in the opening issue of a new magazine, that makes perfect sense. |
| 19:53.49 | sjansen | ~lvm++ |
| 19:56.25 | Sargun_screen | sjansen: yep. |
| 19:56.30 | sjansen | ~revoke levi's Free Software license |
| 19:56.31 | ibot | ACTION confiscates and destroys levi's Free Software license's DNRC membership certificate |
| 19:56.53 | sjansen | scratches his head and stares, confused |
| 20:12.44 | maquis | ~revoke sjansen |
| 20:12.45 | ibot | ACTION confiscates and destroys sjansen's DNRC membership certificate |
| 20:12.50 | maquis | ~DNRC |
| 20:13.02 | maquis | ~wiki DNRC |
| 20:13.14 | maquis | ah |
| 20:15.36 | sjansen | Years ago my brother emailed Dogbert to discuss his plans for world domination. As a reward, he was granted a small pacific island. |
| 20:18.04 | JoshH | fsf ddos of apple stores? |
| 20:19.28 | tensai | JoshH: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10000290-16.html |
| 20:23.17 | JoshH | well, that's pretty dumb |
| 20:28.29 | unum | so how does policing work with the various anarchist systems? |
| 20:29.15 | unum | I understand the anarch-capatilist who say the government should do nothing but policing and national defense |
| 20:29.40 | unum | (I disagree, but I can see why they think it would work) |
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| 20:30.02 | unum | but I don't understand the ones who argue for private policing. that just seems like it could never work. |
| 20:31.39 | maquis | private policing will always cater to whoever has the most money |
| 20:32.01 | maquis | if that's the government, then you have a police force that works for the government |
| 20:32.03 | JoshH | kinda like our current justice system, but worse |
| 20:32.23 | maquis | if the mafia has more money, then why would the private police work for the government? |
| 20:37.17 | unum | lessig talks about these issues in his first book. the anarcho-captialist went to eastern europe to teach them the values of their way. and they didn't work. because the mafia filled the voided created by a weak government |
| 20:39.28 | levi | maquis: There is no state at all in the anarcho-capitalist system. |
| 20:40.01 | unum | if you want police protection you hire a police department |
| 20:40.18 | unum | so a ya, you pay "protection money" |
| 20:40.54 | JoshH | i wonder who decides what kind of money to use and how much should be made |
| 20:41.14 | unum | good question |
| 20:41.23 | {-} | Money isn't made, it's mined. |
| 20:41.39 | maquis | JoshH: i suppose that you could always make do with trading items |
| 20:41.40 | levi | You use whatever means of trade that is accepted by your trading partner. |
| 20:42.01 | JoshH | i'd offer to have my wife bake pies to pay my personal police force |
| 20:42.18 | JoshH | but then how would i get squad cars for them |
| 20:43.10 | maquis | my guess is that a society like this would end up pretty similar to how it is in places like Somalia |
| 20:44.10 | JoshH | for pretty much any ideology out there, you can see a real world example of a society based on it |
| 20:44.32 | JoshH | if the religious extremists had their way, we'd have a middle east type system |
| 20:44.39 | maquis | when doing debate, we actually debated a resolution which was "oppressive government is preferable to no government" |
| 20:44.55 | JoshH | somalia is about as close to anarchy as it gets |
| 20:45.09 | maquis | it was one of the better debate topics, in my opinion. |
| 20:45.27 | maquis | a lot of topics were very one-sided, and i found that there were some pretty good arguments in each direction for that one |
| 20:45.28 | unum | was that a lincoln douglas topic? |
| 20:45.33 | maquis | unum: yup |
| 20:45.43 | unum | licoln douglas is the best |
| 20:45.49 | JoshH | if liberals got their way on a lot of things, we might have something like holland |
| 20:45.50 | maquis | i can't imagine seeing CX debaters trying to breath through a debate on that issue |
| 20:45.54 | jshipley | I feel that it is immoral to deny police protection, medical care, etc to somebody just because they don't have the money. |
| 20:45.56 | JoshH | which i could personally live with |
| 20:45.59 | maquis | unum: yes it is... |
| 20:46.05 | unum | my high school had one of the best teams at that |
| 20:46.14 | maquis | well, i've heard parliamentary is more fun, but that wasn't an option for us |
| 20:46.20 | jshipley | So, I'd hate to live in Somalia. |
| 20:46.27 | maquis | my coach informed us when he started that if anybody tried to do CX debate, he'd quit |
| 20:46.32 | {-} | JoshH: You're ignoring the implications of size. The US has no chance of being Holland, no matter who is in charge. |
| 20:46.48 | unum | I'm not sure what you mean by CX |
| 20:46.51 | JoshH | true, size matters |
| 20:46.59 | maquis | unum: policy debate |
| 20:47.10 | unum | I thought that's probably what you meant |
| 20:47.14 | maquis | the guys who talk so fast that you can't follow them :P |
| 20:47.31 | unum | the year I was in debate we switched coaches from a lincoln douglas guy to a policy guy |
| 20:47.33 | maquis | i did debate for 2 years... LD debate, impromptu and extemporaneous speech |
| 20:47.39 | unum | so we had strong teams for both |
| 20:47.59 | unum | I did it one year and tried a few things. I was never any good. |
| 20:48.12 | maquis | my coach tried to make the 2 of us who were extemp/impromptu do oratory... then he found out in our third tourney that neither of us had actually bothered to write a speech |
| 20:48.20 | maquis | we would just re-use an extemp topic we'd done earlier in the day |
| 20:48.21 | unum | the foreign extemp people are incrediable liars..... |
| 20:48.25 | maquis | unum: oh yeah |
| 20:48.29 | maquis | i made some good ones |
| 20:48.56 | maquis | my worst one was where i couldn't remember what issue of newsweek i'd found some data in... but i knew it was toward the end of february... |
| 20:49.09 | unum | "if I don't know what's going on neither will the judge" |
| 20:49.25 | maquis | "according to the february 30 issue of newsweek..." (at this point, i realize what i just said, but continue on... judge didn't notice) |
| 20:49.57 | maquis | unum: it's all about categorizing the judge |
| 20:50.59 | maquis | and not going too far off... i actually got data, and tried to keep the facts straight... but if you can't remember the exact stat, or you can't remember which issue of what magazine it came out of, you gotta just keep going |
| 20:51.01 | {-} | I did extemp and persuade. Extemp pissed me off because of the people who just made up their facts. Persuade pissed me off because there this girl/robot who did a super polished anti-flag burning speech. |
| 20:51.20 | maquis | {-}: heh |
| 20:51.48 | {-} | Thank goodness the anti-flag burning wackos found something else to obsess about. |
| 20:51.49 | maquis | i got really annoyed at this one girl in our district who somehow incorporated cheese into every impromptu speech she did |
| 20:52.00 | maquis | the first 2-3 times, it was interesting |
| 20:52.20 | maquis | by the time i'd heard her give 15 different impromptus, i wanted to die |
| 20:52.37 | maquis | (primary advantage of extemp... you didn't have to watch your opponents' speeches) |
| 20:53.01 | unum | ya |
| 20:53.28 | unum | wikipedia talks about different ideas that different anarcho-captailist have put forward |
| 20:55.56 | goozbach | primary advantage of not being on the debate team... not having to listen to debates! |
| 20:56.38 | unum | if you're extemp you don't have to listen to them either |
| 20:56.43 | unum | except perhaps your own |
| 20:57.57 | eggyknap | synic: ping |
| 20:59.38 | peno | synic is dead |
| 20:59.43 | eggyknap | Apparently ;) |
| 20:59.59 | peno | he's around here somewhere though |
| 21:00.48 | synic | eggyknap: pong |
| 21:01.51 | maquis | unum: yeah |
| 21:02.35 | maquis | saturday evenings were always the hardest part of tournaments |
| 21:03.00 | maquis | by about 5pm on saturdays, our coach had to come prod us to go to our rounds... |
| 21:03.24 | maquis | otherwise we'd just sit in the cafeteria wishing that they had something actually edible for purchase |
| 21:03.38 | unum | maquis: you're from washington aren't you |
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| 21:12.41 | {-} | maquis is from mars |
| 21:16.19 | Heartsbane | ok... why Mars? |
| 21:21.59 | {-} | alliteration |
| 21:27.03 | Heartsbane | weak sauce, I was hoping for a good reason |
| 21:31.45 | {-} | ~take Heartsbane's sauce |
| 21:31.56 | {-} | ~steal Heartsbane's sauce |
| 21:31.57 | ibot | ACTION grabs Heartsbane's sauce and gives it to {-} |
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| 22:10.29 | thesuperbigfrog | feels uneasy about Oracle's control of Java |
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| 22:40.26 | rsimpkins | thesuperbigfrog: huh? |
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| 22:46.58 | harleypig | anyone good with apache's redirectmatch direction and can give me some pointers? |
| 22:47.10 | harleypig | s/direction/directive/ |
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| 23:04.51 | Heartsbane | JUst die already http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12479617 |
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