| 00:00.32 | stderr | thought it was "parkour" |
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| 03:44.48 | tensai | stupid bluetooth. I dunno if it's my phone, my adapter or both. the whole setup is very tenuous. |
| 04:21.39 | levi | downloads the Windows 7 RC. |
| 04:24.04 | levi | Ooh, Chrome has an alpha-quality Linux port now. |
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| 06:31.01 | levi | Woohoo, my new myth frontend has arrived in SLC. |
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| 14:16.05 | tensai | is it just me or does "sexual harassment training" sound like the opposite of what it really is? |
| 14:17.07 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 14:20.54 | jsmith | tensai: Exactly |
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| 15:06.42 | unum | http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=2&em |
| 15:06.45 | brac | [Op-Ed Columnist - Would You Slap Your Father? If So, Youâre a Liberal - NYTimes.com] |
| 15:11.59 | manithree | "To overcome that tendency, I argued, we should set aside time for a daily mental workout with an ideological sparring partner." |
| 15:12.15 | jsmith | manithree: You're wrong! |
| 15:12.17 | jsmith | ducks |
| 15:12.44 | manithree | Along those lines, anybody know of a good fact-based, intellectual liberal columnist along the lines of conservatives George Will or Thomas Sowell? |
| 15:13.20 | manithree | Eh, cut&paste gone wrong. |
| 15:13.30 | unum | pj orork(sp)? |
| 15:13.58 | manithree | P.J. O'Rourke? |
| 15:14.22 | unum | that's the one |
| 15:14.25 | tensai | unum: nice |
| 15:14.36 | unum | he's economic is that what you were looking for? |
| 15:14.50 | manithree | How to Drive Fast on Drugs While Getting Your Wing-Wang Squeezed and Not Spill Your Drink |
| 15:15.07 | unum | i think I need to read that one |
| 15:15.14 | unum | I spilled my beer doing that last night |
| 15:15.51 | manithree | I just want a liberal who intelligently argues their case, not just emotionally. Economists are fine (Mr. Sowell is an economist also) |
| 15:15.59 | unum | hmm i guess O'Rourk is a humorist.... |
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| 15:16.11 | unum | I forgot about that I only read him a little a while a go |
| 15:16.49 | manithree | According to wikipedia he works for the Cato institute and is conservative/libertarian/luddite |
| 15:17.24 | unum | interesting. I didn't expect that from what I had read of his |
| 15:17.32 | unum | my memory must be going |
| 15:19.31 | manithree | I've tried Noam Chomsky, Thomas Friedman (he's close occasionally), Camille Paglia, Christopher Hitchens, Orson Scott Card ... Still looking |
| 15:20.32 | unum | of course Lessigs a liberal blogger ;) |
| 15:21.00 | unum | now do you want democrat or liberal? |
| 15:21.28 | unum | schneier is an other blogger I consider liberal |
| 15:21.46 | manithree | Liberal, probably. I hate all republicrats. |
| 15:22.18 | unum | i asked a friend who I know reads a lot of that sort of stuff |
| 15:22.27 | unum | I'll tell you who he reads as soon as he answers |
| 15:22.31 | manithree | Lessig and Schneier are both fairly focused on their pet issues from what I've read. But I'll look at them again. |
| 15:22.33 | manithree | Thx. |
| 15:22.45 | unum | so do the guys you read argue against public education? |
| 15:23.45 | manithree | Most argue that federal involvement in public education is un-constitutional. Mostly they argue against the teacher's unions. |
| 15:24.31 | unum | I prefer to argue about why federal control is a bad idea rather than on uncostitutional grounds |
| 15:24.44 | unum | do they argue against teachers rights to freely associate |
| 15:25.22 | manithree | Not afaik, just that pandering to them is good for teachers, not students |
| 15:25.53 | unum | I think we should destroy teacher unions by raising pay |
| 15:26.19 | unum | in fact I think all unions should be destroyed that way. raising pay and treating employees decent. |
| 15:26.31 | manithree | Dream on |
| 15:26.52 | unum | you don't think that would destroy unions? |
| 15:27.34 | manithree | With all the money and power UEA and NEA have, absolutely not |
| 15:27.45 | unum | they only have power because people join them |
| 15:28.51 | manithree | But they have momentum and most teachers I know (even conservative-leaning ones) join out of habit and herd. That wouldn't change if they made more money |
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| 15:29.45 | unum | the teachers I know join in order to help increase their pay and control of their classroom |
| 15:29.50 | unum | not out of habit |
| 15:30.02 | unum | that's throwing away a lot of money to support something you don't believe in |
| 15:30.05 | jsmith | The teachers I know felt they had to join, or they wouldn't be accepted by their peers |
| 15:30.13 | jsmith | and or wouldn't get tenure |
| 15:30.19 | JoshH | i don't like unions at all, but i would join one without hesitation if the rest of my coworkers were part of it |
| 15:30.19 | manithree | jsmith: that's the herd mentality |
| 15:30.24 | unum | jsmith: tenure is automatic in utah after three years |
| 15:30.29 | JoshH | unless i would get more pay and better benefits by not joining |
| 15:30.32 | unum | union membership can't affect that |
| 15:30.42 | unum | you do get higher pay by not joining |
| 15:30.46 | manithree | unum: But people believe that |
| 15:30.57 | unum | manithree: then they are stupid |
| 15:31.02 | JoshH | ya, i'm just saying, the employer would ahve to provide an incentive not to join |
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| 15:31.11 | unum | JoshH: you have to pay to join |
| 15:31.13 | JoshH | so basically, i'd join it |
| 15:31.16 | unum | there's already an incentive |
| 15:31.25 | unum | you get to keep your money |
| 15:31.43 | JoshH | well, the idea is that you get benefits by paying to join |
| 15:32.05 | unum | what benefits? |
| 15:32.26 | tensai | or if you're in oregon you pay your "fair share" to the union if you don't join. so you pay either way. |
| 15:32.58 | manithree | Raising teacher's salaries would just give UEA the right to say "look what we did! join us for more" They're not going anywhere. |
| 15:33.18 | unum | oregon's different |
| 15:33.54 | tensai | unum: there's an understatement :) |
| 15:33.56 | unum | oregon's very different. I have recently been learning about our employees in Eugene.... |
| 15:34.09 | manithree | The longer my kids are in public school, the less I like the idea of raising all teacher's salaries. |
| 15:34.35 | unum | the system would need to be changed, but it can't be changed as long as the teachers need the union to protect them |
| 15:34.37 | manithree | Most teachers are overpaid, it's only the rare good teacher that's underpaid. |
| 15:34.51 | jsmith | doubts that |
| 15:34.52 | unum | do you know what most teachers are paid? |
| 15:35.04 | manithree | Do you know how little some teachers do? |
| 15:35.11 | JoshH | some, sure |
| 15:35.17 | unum | do you know what the average starting salary is in Utah for a teacher? |
| 15:35.19 | JoshH | most that i had in school did quite a bit |
| 15:35.23 | manithree | Paying them more isn't going to change anything |
| 15:35.25 | unum | most of mine did to |
| 15:35.35 | manithree | < $20k last time I checked. |
| 15:35.58 | unum | manithree: paying them more needs to come with changes to the system. the system can't get changed until we pay them better |
| 15:36.09 | unum | well it is a little better than that |
| 15:36.13 | manithree | And it's not going to change with unions around |
| 15:36.21 | unum | it's about $28k last I checked |
| 15:36.35 | unum | the unions will stay around as long as the pay is low and the treatment is crappy |
| 15:36.43 | manithree | stalemate |
| 15:37.20 | unum | there's ways to negoiate our way out of the stalemate but most of our law makers want to dismantle the public system and not fix it |
| 15:37.40 | JoshH | i can't understand the conservative anti-teacher feelings |
| 15:37.51 | JoshH | i had maybe 1-2 truly bad teachers throughout my entire public education |
| 15:37.54 | JoshH | and they weren't really that bad |
| 15:37.57 | manithree | unum: most is a strong word, especially among liberals and democrats |
| 15:38.00 | unum | JoshH: same here |
| 15:38.18 | unum | manithree: they voted to start dis mantling. it passed by 1 vote |
| 15:38.24 | unum | so most is correct but only narrowly |
| 15:38.38 | manithree | unum: What legislation are you referring to? |
| 15:39.06 | unum | the voucher law |
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| 15:41.19 | manithree | unum: If giving public schools competition and saving money would dismantle them (I don't think it would), then they probably deserve it. Most voucher supporters I know don't support vouchers in an attempt to eradicate public schools. |
| 15:42.16 | unum | manithree: taking money from the public school system and giving it to private organizations is cleary dismantling |
| 15:42.20 | unum | it |
| 15:42.58 | JoshH | i don't see why education needs to be a for profit system |
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| 15:43.21 | manithree | unum: Ah, I thought you were talking about Utah's voucher law which didn't do that. |
| 15:43.37 | JoshH | i don't want schools to be worried about maximizing revenue by buying the cheapest supplies available, i want them focused on teaching |
| 15:43.54 | unum | manithree: did to. if a kid transferred from public school to private school it took money from the public school |
| 15:44.17 | JoshH | besides, private schools usually produce weird kids, in my experience |
| 15:44.39 | unum | you should look at the organization that fundled most of the money into the pro voucher campaign. they have a stated goal of ending the public school system. |
| 15:44.43 | tensai | JoshH: like maquis |
| 15:44.50 | JoshH | definitely |
| 15:44.55 | JoshH | a girl that uses linux? |
| 15:44.57 | unum | JoshH: sounds like you know ones that went to the Liahona |
| 15:45.01 | JoshH | it gets no stranger than that |
| 15:45.09 | unum | no one is taking my money to send someone to the Liahona |
| 15:45.09 | manithree | unum: The voucher law that passed in utah was not funded from property taxes |
| 15:45.37 | unum | manithree: then where did the money come from? |
| 15:45.51 | unum | the schools are funded based on how many students they have |
| 15:45.57 | sinuhe | JoshH: weird kids? |
| 15:46.07 | unum | so each school would lose a certain amount of money for each student that transferred out |
| 15:46.21 | manithree | unum: That was one of the problems with the voucher law, it just came from other tax revenue without specifying where IIRC |
| 15:46.21 | unum | that money would them be availiable to "rebudget" |
| 15:47.08 | unum | since 80% of the budget is education, most of it would have to come out of there anyways |
| 15:47.16 | unum | there aren't a lot of other places to cut |
| 15:48.07 | manithree | True, but the voucher value was much less (30%?) than what the state spends per pupil. So it saves money |
| 15:48.42 | unum | that depends on how it played out |
| 15:49.12 | unum | we don't know who would have used the vouchers. so it may not be true that it would have saved the state money |
| 15:49.52 | JoshH | what the state needs to do is charge for school depending on how many kids you have, regardless of what the eagle forum thinks about it |
| 15:49.55 | unum | people who planned on sending their kids to private school may have sent their kids to one year of kindergarten and then transferred them to private school |
| 15:50.17 | JoshH | and quit forcing the liquor buyers to pay for them |
| 15:50.57 | unum | thus they get the voucher when they would have paid for it themselves in the past |
| 15:51.14 | unum | JoshH: we need to make sure everyone has an education. |
| 15:51.28 | manithree | I think we're back to the stalemate. Generally liberals oppose anything that would allow firing bad teachers. I think that's a critical part of education reform. |
| 15:51.50 | JoshH | that's not true at all |
| 15:52.18 | JoshH | liberals oppose cutting funding for public education, and tend to think teachers should be paid more |
| 15:52.27 | JoshH | it has nothing to do with firing bad teachers |
| 15:52.50 | JoshH | it's not easy to determine that a teacher is bad though |
| 15:53.02 | unum | I think we should fire bad teachers. I just don't know the best way to do it. |
| 15:53.13 | JoshH | all kids learn differently, and standardized tests and such don't work |
| 15:53.37 | unum | the voucher system didn't allow bad teachers to get fired. in fact it would have allowed more REALLY bad teachers to get hired at the Liahona |
| 15:53.38 | manithree | unum: Neither do I, that's why competition is good |
| 15:53.51 | JoshH | i do think we need to overhaul a lot of things about the system |
| 15:53.57 | JoshH | kids should be learning calculus in 7th grade |
| 15:54.01 | unum | manithree: but it's my money and I have a right to decide how it gets spent |
| 15:54.34 | unum | you shouldn't have the freedom to take my money and spend it on running your own personal sunday school |
| 15:54.38 | manithree | unum: It's mine too. And I say our public schools are a tremendous waste of it. Throwing more money at bad teachers will not make it better. |
| 15:54.56 | unum | manithree: I agree that throwing more money and bad teachers won't make it better |
| 15:55.09 | unum | but we need to create a system where we can hire good teachers |
| 15:55.15 | manithree | unum: Then why is that the only plan acceptable to democrats/liberal? |
| 15:55.15 | unum | the voucher system did not do that |
| 15:55.21 | JoshH | i think paying teachers better will attract good teachers to our market, and keep them here longer |
| 15:55.39 | unum | manithree: giving less money to bad teachers doesn't fix the problem either |
| 15:55.49 | JoshH | i don't want my kids taught by someone who resents the system because she gets paid peanuts |
| 15:55.50 | unum | why is that the only solution accetable to conservatives? |
| 15:56.21 | JoshH | and public education is certainly not a "waste of money", unless you don't think we need an educated society |
| 15:56.22 | manithree | which solution? |
| 15:56.33 | unum | manithree: paying less money to bad teachers |
| 15:56.39 | unum | that's what the voucher system did |
| 15:57.35 | manithree | unum: It didn't go into effect, so we can argue all day about what it might have done. But I hope it would have weeded out failing schools and teachers, not just lower their pay. |
| 15:58.03 | unum | the Liahona is a failing school and people still go to it. |
| 15:58.17 | unum | and it has some really bad teachers |
| 15:58.28 | manithree | JoshH: the ROI on public education is horrible. We spend lots of money for an ever-decreasing return. How does that mean I don't want an educated society? |
| 15:58.58 | JoshH | well what kidn of return do you expect? a profit, or a smart populace? |
| 15:59.05 | JoshH | i definitely think the system needs a lot of changes |
| 15:59.11 | JoshH | i just don't think privatization is it |
| 15:59.11 | unum | manithree: how do charter school fail to create the competition that you think will solve all our problems? |
| 15:59.11 | manithree | JoshH: an educated populace |
| 15:59.29 | JoshH | i think we need more learning, less babysitting |
| 15:59.49 | JoshH | teachers should be very knowledgeable in their field, and well paid |
| 15:59.49 | unum | or better worded. How would the voucher law have created better competition than charter schools |
| 16:00.06 | manithree | unum: I have hopes. But so many charter schools are really badly managed (by committee demagoguery) that I'm doubtful. Some are great, though. |
| 16:00.19 | JoshH | i think our kids need to be at least as far along as kids in japan and india |
| 16:00.20 | unum | manithree: how would voucher have been any different |
| 16:00.33 | unum | JoshH: those places have some terrible failings |
| 16:00.37 | JoshH | the main problems with our public education system are that it's used as a glorified daycare |
| 16:00.37 | unum | especially india |
| 16:00.46 | unum | ya we don't want our kids educated like india |
| 16:01.03 | JoshH | obviously i don't want to copy their whole system, unum |
| 16:01.06 | unum | maybe not so much japan |
| 16:01.08 | manithree | I don't want the japanese or Indian model, either |
| 16:01.30 | manithree | I do reject the "throw more money at it" and bad teachers will get better idea |
| 16:01.49 | JoshH | i don't want their model |
| 16:01.57 | JoshH | i want our kids to be as smart as theirs |
| 16:02.07 | unum | manithree: I agree that reforming the system needs to part of raising pay |
| 16:02.07 | JoshH | (the ones that haven't been failed) |
| 16:02.16 | unum | but I think we can negoiate with teachers to do such |
| 16:02.35 | unum | though it will be hard to create a system where teachers are fairly evaluated |
| 16:02.39 | manithree | So where's the liberal agenda for reform? The only plans I've ever seen from liberals are more money to teachers. |
| 16:02.50 | unum | we could create more smaller schools that allow more competition but that costs a lot more money |
| 16:02.55 | JoshH | well, nobody really has a good plan yet |
| 16:03.10 | JoshH | i do think that as far as funding goes, in utah, there should be a head tax |
| 16:03.54 | JoshH | as far as changing the way teaching is done, i have a lot of ideas, and my vision for what schools should be like is nowhere close to how it is now |
| 16:04.14 | unum | as a member of the state democratic party I feel that we do need to put down a clear plan that outlines ideas for evaluations |
| 16:04.14 | JoshH | but i definitely don't think replacing public education with private is a good idea |
| 16:04.20 | unum | but I'm still far too low on the food chain |
| 16:06.31 | unum | but the most members of the party do recognize that other changes need to be made |
| 16:07.01 | unum | but admittly it's hard to do too much when the union has so much say in the party |
| 16:07.18 | unum | many of the democratic state reps are uea members |
| 16:07.27 | manithree | Knocking down straw men doesn't improve public education either. If there was a real plan to improve public education I and many conservatives would gladly support it. But I can guarantee you any plan that make it easier to fire worthless teachers will be opposed by democrats |
| 16:07.28 | unum | one's even an employee |
| 16:07.34 | JoshH | i think we need a more challenging, better curriculum, and less silly rules that make students feel like toddlers. |
| 16:08.55 | unum | of course right now raising taxes inorder to increase the teaching pool wouldn't be a popular idea |
| 16:09.18 | unum | i know a teacher who is completely crazy. but the school can't fire her because they probably won't be able to replace her |
| 16:09.43 | manithree | It's virtually impossible to fire a teacher when the economy is good |
| 16:09.47 | unum | every year most high schools find them selves with at least one science opening |
| 16:10.00 | JoshH | unions never would have been a problem if people weren't trying to screw their workers in the past |
| 16:10.04 | unum | and on good computer teachers |
| 16:10.11 | unum | JoshH: exactly |
| 16:10.19 | maquis | increasing testing doesn't help, either |
| 16:10.27 | maquis | stupid wasl test |
| 16:10.32 | unum | ya |
| 16:10.36 | manithree | maquis: Especially federal testing |
| 16:11.13 | JoshH | manithree: i don't know where you get these ideas about firing teachers. i clearly remember more than one teacher being fired during my school years |
| 16:11.25 | unum | I really like the idea of small charter schools |
| 16:11.31 | maquis | i honestly think i had some of the best teachers imaginable, but a lot of that was that since it was a private school, they weren't bound by all the rules that the public schools had |
| 16:11.42 | unum | on a high school level they need to be bigger but students can commute farther |
| 16:11.42 | maquis | they could actually teach in the way that worked for their classes |
| 16:11.49 | JoshH | and teachers shouldn't be fired anyway, unless they really screw up |
| 16:11.51 | unum | it won't work as well in the rural areas |
| 16:12.21 | JoshH | as long as most kids are motivated and end up learning the material, the teacher did well |
| 16:12.31 | unum | JoshH: after three years a teacher can't be fire unless they doing something really bad(like molest a student) |
| 16:12.32 | maquis | JoshH: i agree with that. if they're not teaching anything, though... |
| 16:12.34 | manithree | JoshH: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers3-2009may03,0,679507.story |
| 16:12.36 | brac | [Firing tenured teachers can be a costly and tortuous task - Los Angeles Times] |
| 16:12.49 | JoshH | i think principals and administrators need to be canned more often |
| 16:13.00 | manithree | JoshH: If I was as poor a programmer as 90% of my kids teachers, I wouldn't have been fired multiple times |
| 16:13.15 | manithree | Er, I would have been fired |
| 16:13.23 | maquis | i think the most important thing is helping children (and teenagers) get interested in topics and learn how to teach themselves |
| 16:13.30 | JoshH | if you could make a decent living as a programming teacher, maybe you would be one |
| 16:13.51 | unum | JoshH: I would be a history teacher |
| 16:13.56 | JoshH | me too |
| 16:14.02 | unum | but I would be making half my current pay |
| 16:14.04 | JoshH | i'd actually enjoy teaching more than anything else |
| 16:14.07 | JoshH | i love history and geography |
| 16:14.08 | unum | same here |
| 16:14.14 | JoshH | but unless my wife becomes a surgeon, it won't happen |
| 16:14.18 | maquis | sometimes wonders if homeschooling would be worthwhile... or co-op or something |
| 16:14.24 | manithree | I would love to teach, also |
| 16:14.31 | JoshH | homeschooling works if you are smart, and can stay home all day |
| 16:14.36 | tensai | maquis: worthwhile for you or for the kids? |
| 16:14.44 | JoshH | i'm all about homeschooling and private schools as options for those who want it |
| 16:14.47 | unum | JoshH: I think co-op is a good idea because I can't teach art or music |
| 16:14.48 | maquis | JoshH: i plan on being a stay-at-home mom... and i consider myself reasonably smart |
| 16:14.51 | JoshH | just not as replacements for a public system |
| 16:14.56 | manithree | JoshH: Don't for get disciplined |
| 16:15.17 | JoshH | true |
| 16:15.20 | maquis | but i don't know if i could handle it full time, especially with multiple kids at different ages... |
| 16:15.26 | unum | I think you also need to make special care to teach social schools with home schooling |
| 16:15.35 | maquis | unum: yeah |
| 16:15.44 | unum | I know too many home school kids who can't do much because they are painfully shy |
| 16:15.48 | maquis | i've seen enough kids with no social skills who were home-schooled... |
| 16:16.02 | maquis | unum: iv'e seen some who weren't painfully shy.... but... still couldn't make friends |
| 16:16.09 | JoshH | maquis: thing is, teaching kids how to read, how to do various levels of math, history, geography, arts, physical education, etc, is no simple task. if you claim to be up to it, then i believe you, but i don't think a lot of parents are |
| 16:16.38 | manithree | I know lots of home-schooled kids who are very sociable. I know lots of public-educated children who are on the prison track |
| 16:16.59 | maquis | JoshH: i'm not proposing it as something to replace public schools... i'm more concerned right now about the fact that i'm concerned about the level of schooling my future kids are going to get if they end up in public schools |
| 16:17.15 | unum | I met one home school kid that was sociable, but she had been going to private school for four years before i met her |
| 16:17.32 | JoshH | i believe that in utah, you can technically send your kids to any public school, even outside the area you live in, but i'm not 100 percent sure |
| 16:17.35 | unum | the rest were bad. and only one of the ones I met seemed to have much of a career path |
| 16:17.38 | JoshH | some public schools here are great |
| 16:17.42 | JoshH | others are terrible |
| 16:18.23 | JoshH | some of my friends from middle school ended up going to private high schools, and hated it, and didn't get to do much socializing (which is why i made my weird kids comment earlier) |
| 16:18.31 | manithree | JoshH: I don't know about outside the district, but inside I know you can choose. My youngest goes to Orchard (we live by Cascade) for spanish immersion |
| 16:18.32 | maquis | JoshH: not in washington, i know |
| 16:18.36 | JoshH | most of them ended up doing drugs too |
| 16:19.18 | JoshH | but really, i think it just comes down to the fact that changes need to be made with how we educate people |
| 16:19.23 | JoshH | it seems everyone agrees on that much |
| 16:19.24 | manithree | JoshH: Wow. That's scientific. Instead, let's go to a prison and do a survey of educational backgrounds. |
| 16:19.44 | stderr | manithree: that's not scientific either. |
| 16:19.47 | maquis | JoshH: trying to socialize in private school can be very difficult. i went to private schools my entire life, and i know i wasn't able to socialize as much as would've been good. |
| 16:19.48 | JoshH | i don't think kids should be allowed to drop out at 16 either |
| 16:19.50 | manithree | I bet they're mostly home and private schooled, whatta ya think? |
| 16:20.13 | maquis | but at the same time, i know that I got a good education, and i think overall it was worthwhile for me |
| 16:20.17 | manithree | stderr: Are you saying JoshH's sample is scientific? |
| 16:20.23 | stderr | manithree: I bet they're mostly _poor_. |
| 16:20.27 | JoshH | i'd be willing to bet that most of the prisoners in there for crimes that aren't white collar didn't pay much attention in school, no matter where they went |
| 16:20.29 | stderr | manithree: No, I'm not. But neither is yours. |
| 16:20.58 | maquis | i wish I could provide the same opportunity to my children, but I don't expect to have the type of money my parents spent on that, and I hope to have more than just one child... |
| 16:21.16 | JoshH | i definitely think poverty leads to crime much more than a substandard education does |
| 16:21.37 | stderr | Or when you're poor you don't have nearly the same assets to defend yourself in court... |
| 16:21.53 | stderr | whether it be wealth, intellect, social status, whatever. |
| 16:22.12 | unum | there's a whole culture to it. and I think public education is a place where we can teach a new culture |
| 16:22.29 | unum | and good teachers can do that, but good teachers often want to feed their own families |
| 16:23.15 | JoshH | if i could make say, 90k teaching history or any other subject i enjoyed, i'd pick that career in an instant |
| 16:23.21 | JoshH | and i think i'd be pretty good |
| 16:23.25 | manithree | stderr: You haven't even heard my methodology, so how do you know surveying prisoners couldn't be done scientifically? My main point was just because someone went to private school doesn't mean they can imply that private schooling leads to drug use. |
| 16:23.44 | JoshH | i wouldn't enjoy working at a for-profit private school though |
| 16:24.07 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 16:24.16 | JoshH | manithree: i wasn't really trying to make that point |
| 16:24.30 | maquis | JoshH: not all private schools are for-profit |
| 16:24.32 | JoshH | just giving my anecdote |
| 16:24.39 | maquis | many are non-profit organizations |
| 16:24.58 | JoshH | i'd enjoy teaching at a public school, if i was treated well and could run my class how i saw fit |
| 16:25.41 | maquis | JoshH: that's the benefits of private over public for teaching |
| 16:25.49 | maquis | the teachers i had could run their classes how they wanted |
| 16:26.12 | stderr | manithree: You proposed surveying prisoners on education based on the premise that educated people versus non-educated people will go to jail/prison equally. |
| 16:26.20 | JoshH | i don't want to only teach a bunch of rich brats though |
| 16:26.26 | maquis | a lot of them commented that they were actually making less than public school teachers they knew, but they felt it was worth-it for the advantages |
| 16:26.32 | maquis | JoshH: not all the kids in private school are rich brats |
| 16:26.46 | maquis | some are, but i'd say probably at least a third weren't in my school |
| 16:26.48 | JoshH | i want to take a class full of normal kids, some who don't expect to enjoy the class at all, and help motivate them |
| 16:27.04 | JoshH | and show them how fun the subject can be |
| 16:27.11 | maquis | JoshH: sure... but if you're in a public school, the government throws too many restrictions on what you can do |
| 16:27.23 | JoshH | which is one thing that needs to change |
| 16:27.34 | maquis | i'd love to do that too, but the government restrictions make it sound horrid |
| 16:28.04 | unum | maquis: which restrictions |
| 16:28.05 | manithree | stderr: I proposed that a survey of prison inmates could scientifically prove his implication (intended or not) that private school leads to drug use is rubbish |
| 16:28.35 | manithree | unum: Teaching to the test, mostly (IMNSHO) |
| 16:29.08 | stderr | manithree: Which immediately assumes that private school kids will be indicted and convicted at the same rate as those not in private school. I disagree. |
| 16:29.41 | JoshH | i would want complete freedom to talk about anything i wanted, including religion, politics, etc, without fear of punishment because of angry parents |
| 16:30.26 | JoshH | some of my favorite class days in college were the ones were the prof just randomly brought up a current events topic and all the students just talked about it for the whole class period, everyone sharing their opinions freely, etc |
| 16:30.53 | JoshH | had some of that in middle and high school too, but not as much |
| 16:31.07 | unum | that's the worst part about all these test. They focus on math and science |
| 16:31.15 | unum | history and currenty events are being pushed to the side |
| 16:31.25 | unum | which I think are the most important topics |
| 16:31.57 | manithree | stderr: Fair enough. But I still contend that my assertion is less hyperbolic than the original. |
| 16:32.54 | stderr | manithree: No argument from me on that count. |
| 16:33.05 | manithree | http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/LAUSD-Teachers-Paid-to-Idle.html |
| 16:33.47 | unum | JoshH: I don't like the idea of my tax money being used for religous education |
| 16:34.08 | JoshH | i don't mean religious education |
| 16:34.20 | unum | but at a high school level I wouldn't be bothered by a teacher discussing religion objectively |
| 16:34.27 | unum | like is done in college classes |
| 16:34.31 | JoshH | i mean discussing it in a non-churchy context without fear of going over the line and getting in trouble |
| 16:34.47 | unum | actually my high school teacher did do that |
| 16:35.06 | JoshH | some teachers do, ya |
| 16:35.10 | JoshH | but more should |
| 16:35.18 | unum | he openly attacked teachings that were taught in my seminary class |
| 16:35.30 | unum | and for good reason the seminary teacher was teaching some baaaaaaaaaaad crap |
| 16:35.42 | JoshH | we need more free speech in the primary education system |
| 16:35.46 | maquis | my teachers did... kind-of... i wouldn't actually refer to it as "objective", since the teachers were generally very anti-religion... but yeah |
| 16:36.18 | maquis | we had some very interesting discussions about a variety of different religions, what they believed, etc... |
| 16:36.21 | JoshH | i don't think there's anything wrong with a teacher telling kids that he's anti-religion and explaining why |
| 16:36.23 | unum | my teachers was second counsilor in his bishopric and would grade our papers while on the stand |
| 16:36.49 | maquis | JoshH: i don't have a problem with that... my problem is when they start attacking specific religions |
| 16:36.52 | JoshH | i don't think any viewpoint should be forbidden |
| 16:37.12 | stderr | discussion religion is fine, just don't do it in the Biology class. |
| 16:37.36 | unum | it's often appropriate in a history class |
| 16:37.36 | maquis | stderr: yeah... ours was usually in history class and philosophy class |
| 16:37.41 | JoshH | sure, but do it in social studies, civics, etc |
| 16:37.42 | maquis | the philosophy class was the most interesting one |
| 16:37.43 | unum | and a civics class |
| 16:37.47 | stderr | well that's, obviously, appropriate |
| 16:37.50 | unum | ya |
| 16:38.00 | unum | philosophy class |
| 16:38.25 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 16:41.18 | unum | see we all agree more than we thought ;) |
| 16:43.57 | maquis | i have to say, the thing that scares me most about our current education system is what i see around me, especially with kids i know at church. |
| 16:44.08 | maquis | i know 16-year-olds who struggle with reading simple words and sentences |
| 16:44.35 | maquis | and it's not just one or two with learning disabilities... it's most of the 16-year-olds |
| 16:45.11 | JoshH | spelling and grammar mistakes are what bug me the most, especially in things like student newspapers |
| 16:45.27 | maquis | in primary, most of the senior primary struggles with reading... |
| 16:45.28 | JoshH | seems like they are a lot more common these days |
| 16:45.40 | unum | everyone I went to church with could read at the age of 16 |
| 16:45.48 | unum | except of course the kid with down syndrome |
| 16:46.09 | unum | I guess big words in the scripture threw them sometimes |
| 16:46.23 | unum | and reading the sacrament prayer terrified some of them so they suddenly couldn't read |
| 16:46.37 | unum | but simple things from conference talks they could read |
| 16:47.15 | maquis | unum: i can tell you out of the primary kids in my ward which ones have parents who are involved in their schooling and improving their reading, and which ones don't have parents that do that |
| 16:47.51 | maquis | (i'm in the primary presidency, so that's the group i see things most obviously with) |
| 16:47.54 | unum | ya parents really do make a difference |
| 16:47.55 | manithree | maquis: You probably think you can, but I bet you can't |
| 16:48.06 | unum | and that's one of the problems utah is having trouble grappling with |
| 16:48.12 | unum | and one of the idealogue divides |
| 16:48.20 | jshipley | I remember being expected to read in my kindergarten class |
| 16:48.41 | unum | as a liberal I want to spend tax money to make sure everyone learns reguardless of their parents |
| 16:49.08 | unum | conservatives seem to think there's nothing we can do so why waste the money |
| 16:49.34 | maquis | unum: i'm reasonably conservative (although i guess i'm liberal in utah), and i would love to spend tax money to make sure everyone learns to read and to enjoy learning regardless of their parents |
| 16:49.36 | unum | though I don't know that i know the solution other than smaller class sizes so the teachers can spend more one on one time with the students that need it |
| 16:49.37 | manithree | unum: Wrong, conservatives don't want to try the same old things that aren't working, just more expensively |
| 16:49.58 | maquis | unum: i do think that the parents are always going to make a difference, though |
| 16:49.58 | unum | manithree: but smaller class sizes aren't the same old thing |
| 16:50.05 | unum | maquis: that's true |
| 16:50.16 | unum | but I do believe we can lessen the gap |
| 16:50.23 | maquis | i think that even if all students learn to read, the ones whose parents encourage it will usually still be better readers simply because they have that advantage |
| 16:50.26 | unum | I entered kindergarten reading. |
| 16:50.29 | maquis | but the gap is way too big |
| 16:50.46 | maquis | unum: me too... i read my first novel while in kindergarten! :) |
| 16:51.13 | manithree | unum: Yeah, they are. There is NO correlation between spending/student and education. Lowering class sizes helps a little in some places, but does nothing major. |
| 16:51.37 | manithree | I would like to see smaller class sizes, but that is not going to fix public schools |
| 16:52.05 | maquis | i want to see teachers have the power to make decisions in their classrooms |
| 16:52.12 | unum | manithree: I guess that's the sort of thing a liberal blogger would need to blog about |
| 16:52.24 | unum | because their is reasearch that supports that |
| 16:52.26 | manithree | I think if we could all get over the "conservatives don't want an educated populace" canard, the issues would be a little clearer. |
| 16:52.37 | unum | there's research that supports both, it all depends on who's paying for it :) |
| 16:52.41 | maquis | if i've got a class of high schoolers who don't want to read, and I know the kids well enough to think "you know what, they would probably like The Catcher in the Rye", I don't think the school district should be able to say I can't teach that book |
| 16:52.55 | maquis | (personally, i didn't like that book much, but that was the first example i could think of) |
| 16:53.43 | unum | manithree: but the conservatives don't seem to care about those that don't have involved parents |
| 16:54.01 | maquis | now, the place i think that smaller class sizes come in is that I think a teacher with a smaller class will have an easier time getting to know his students well enough to know what is going to get them interested |
| 16:54.03 | unum | manithree: conservatives want to put it all in the hands of the parents, and the parents are often stupid or don't care |
| 16:54.17 | unum | maquis: excellent point |
| 16:54.24 | manithree | unum: Disagreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to cast aspersions on their motives |
| 16:54.42 | unum | manithree: sorry. I worded that poorly. |
| 16:55.12 | unum | I have never seen an appropriate solution from conservative to deal with children who's parents don't care about their education |
| 16:55.15 | unum | that is what I meant |
| 16:55.31 | maquis | I love the fact that I had some classes that were small enough that the teacher had time to sit down with me individually and discuss *my* interests. I remember sitting with my science teacher outside of class time, working on an art project and discussing black holes and stellar life cycles |
| 16:56.06 | unum | maquis: and I think that's exactly what is needed for these situations |
| 16:56.18 | maquis | I recall that same teacher coming up to me in the halls one day to let me know about a program that was going to be on PBS the following week about astronomy |
| 16:56.52 | maquis | she didn't have to tell me... we weren't even studying astronomy in that class at all, but she knew that was an area of science that interested me, and she wanted to keep that interest going |
| 16:57.04 | eggyknap | Fedora peoples: anyone know what package I need to install to get a thing called "certutil"? |
| 16:57.07 | manithree | unum: Saying conservatives want to dismantle public education and put all the responsibility on parents is not true. Just because you think that's what our methods would do doesn't mean that's what we want. |
| 16:57.14 | eggyknap | is playing with systemtap, which wants certutil |
| 16:57.26 | unum | manithree: there are many conservatives that DO want to do that. |
| 16:57.42 | unum | just like there are many liberals who simply want to give money to the unions |
| 16:57.48 | manithree | unum: I think those would be the extreme libertarians, no the conservatives. |
| 16:57.56 | maquis | manithree: i don't think *anyone* wants to make education worse... I think that everyone just has different views on what will make education better |
| 16:58.07 | unum | my brother calls himself a conservative and wants to eliminate the public school system |
| 16:58.25 | maquis | unum: but he wants to replace it with something that would still be accessible to all students, right? |
| 16:58.27 | manithree | Then as a conservative, why are people always telling me I hate poor people and black people? |
| 16:58.47 | unum | many of the largest finicial donors to the pro voucher campaign also have that stated goal |
| 16:59.00 | unum | maquis: no my brother's a dork |
| 16:59.00 | maquis | manithree: because everyone judges the people they disagree with, and guesses at their goals |
| 16:59.19 | manithree | maquis: And that is SOOO constructive. |
| 16:59.25 | unum | manithree: as a liberal why are people always telling me that I will destroy the economy |
| 16:59.33 | maquis | unum: ok... so maybe not *everyone* wants education to be better, but i'd say the majority of people on both sides of the debates want children to get a good education |
| 16:59.42 | unum | maquis: I agree. |
| 16:59.50 | unum | that's actually what started this all off |
| 16:59.54 | maquis | :) |
| 16:59.58 | unum | is how people should talk to moderates on the other side |
| 17:00.03 | unum | it was in an article that I linked |
| 17:00.08 | unum | well I have a lunch date |
| 17:00.17 | maquis | unum: yeah... |
| 17:00.29 | maquis | apparently i hate being in the majority on anything.... |
| 17:00.37 | maquis | in utah, i'm a liberal, in washington i'm a conservative... |
| 17:00.45 | manithree | I hate issues discussions turning personal |
| 17:00.52 | maquis | my mom considers me a flaming liberal... |
| 17:01.00 | JoshH | wow... |
| 17:01.13 | maquis | JoshH: my mom thinks fox news is fair and balanced... :P |
| 17:01.19 | JoshH | and to me you seem half a step to the left of chris buttars :P |
| 17:01.23 | rsimpkin1 | maquis: Sounds like your mother as never met an actual flaming liberal. |
| 17:01.29 | jsmith | recruits half of #utah to join his "Radical Moderates" party |
| 17:01.36 | rsimpkin1 | lol |
| 17:02.00 | tensai | jsmith: and the other half for the Moderate Radicals party? |
| 17:02.01 | jsmith | rsimpkin1: You laughed! You're in! |
| 17:02.10 | jsmith | tensai: Exactly :-) |
| 17:02.11 | rsimpkin1 | I will start the opposite party, the conservative progressives. |
| 17:02.11 | maquis | part of my problem is that on certain issues, i'm pretty strongly liberal, and on other issues i'm strongly conservative... and on a lot of issues i sit in the middle |
| 17:02.17 | maquis | so, i don't really fit in any group |
| 17:02.28 | jsmith | maquis: Amen, sister! You're in too! |
| 17:02.51 | manithree | maquis: Nobody does |
| 17:03.02 | tensai | maquis: but isn't that the reality? only the wackos and pundits really follow the party lines. |
| 17:03.30 | manithree | Parties are conglomerations for political necessity (convenience?) |
| 17:03.49 | maquis | it makes it hard to vote, though |
| 17:09.37 | JoshH | maquis: same here actually |
| 17:10.05 | JoshH | in general, i'm extremely socially liberal, perhaps even libertarian |
| 17:10.09 | JoshH | economically, i'm fairly moderate |
| 17:10.31 | JoshH | but i support things like gun rights |
| 17:11.25 | JoshH | i think the 2 party system, and the way people are either considered liberal or conservative is a problem |
| 17:13.14 | rsimpkin1 | JoshH: How big of gun should I be able to own? I've always wondered that. |
| 17:13.53 | JoshH | we should all have doomsday cannons |
| 17:13.59 | rsimpkin1 | Oh right on. |
| 17:14.08 | rsimpkin1 | We can play scortched earth, for real. |
| 17:14.42 | rsimpkin1 | I've always been curious what gun right advocates think about that question. |
| 17:14.43 | stderr | I believe that each grade of firearm (rifle, handgun, assault rifle, etc) should each have it's own training prerequisites. |
| 17:14.52 | stderr | its* |
| 17:15.06 | JoshH | i think assault rifle needs a good definition |
| 17:15.10 | rsimpkin1 | How powerful a weapon should I be able to own? |
| 17:15.26 | stderr | assault rifle has its own definition. |
| 17:15.36 | JoshH | i think assault rifle should mean full auto |
| 17:15.41 | stderr | Bull. |
| 17:15.46 | JoshH | not just "2 evil features" or whatever |
| 17:15.59 | stderr | Fully automatic rifles should need their own training. |
| 17:16.03 | JoshH | agreed |
| 17:16.22 | maquis | and some level of testing... like getting a car |
| 17:16.30 | rsimpkin1 | So, you think people should be able to own full-auto by going to a class? What about BIGGER than full-auto? |
| 17:16.31 | JoshH | but, when i think of an assault rifle, i think of a rifle that troops would assault something with |
| 17:16.39 | JoshH | and that's not an single shot ar-15 |
| 17:16.47 | stderr | JoshH: Again, bull. |
| 17:16.48 | rsimpkin1 | Should I be able to get a 50 caliber full auto, with a class, for example? |
| 17:16.52 | JoshH | why? |
| 17:17.14 | stderr | Fully automatic weapons are used for two things: attacking vehicles (large caliber automatic weapons), and laying down cover. |
| 17:17.46 | JoshH | don't soldiers use short bursts when shooting at people? |
| 17:17.47 | stderr | In my small, tactical unit, we rarely, if ever, used fully automatic, on our M4, or as a SAW (they jam too much when you're a pathfinder in the dirt for a week) |
| 17:17.52 | rsimpkin1 | stderr: And target practice! :) |
| 17:17.55 | stderr | and we assaulted positions all the time. |
| 17:18.03 | stderr | No, one shot one kill. |
| 17:18.16 | maquis | that was my understanding as well |
| 17:18.19 | maquis | one shot one kill |
| 17:18.24 | stderr | Why would I expend more than one round on an enemy? Center of body mass, they're going down. |
| 17:18.29 | JoshH | well, the point is, i don't think a single shot ar-15 should be treated much differently than a single shot 30-06 |
| 17:18.35 | stderr | Again, bull. |
| 17:18.58 | stderr | A semiauto AR-15/M4 has capabilities that a single shot hunting rifle like a 30-06 does not have. |
| 17:18.59 | JoshH | why? what's the difference, other than looks and power? |
| 17:19.12 | JoshH | and ability to add accesories |
| 17:19.21 | stderr | you can put rails on a 30-06. |
| 17:19.26 | rsimpkin1 | Like night vision laser scopes? |
| 17:19.36 | stderr | An assault rifle is used as a SMG / rifle hybrid |
| 17:19.51 | eggyknap | with duct tape, who needs rails? :) |
| 17:19.53 | eggyknap | returns to lurk mode |
| 17:20.08 | JoshH | well, we probably agree more than we disagree, i just think we could get by with less levels of classification |
| 17:20.10 | stderr | it's shorter, has little recoil, and has more velocity. |
| 17:20.55 | JoshH | i don't think that a proficiency training and test is a bad idea for ownership of any level of gun though |
| 17:20.59 | stderr | I can recover from one shot instantly and move to another target, at very, very short ranges. |
| 17:21.13 | stderr | Everyone who wants to own a weapon shoulder undergo proficiency training. |
| 17:21.17 | stderr | should* |
| 17:21.23 | stderr | shoulder? I'm tired. |
| 17:21.32 | JoshH | it's silly to think that i could buy a shotgun at walmart and wreak some havoc at a mall, but would have to jump through hoops to get an ak with a few features |
| 17:23.19 | JoshH | it's almost as dumb as the fact that i can buy watery budweiser at 7-11, but need to go the liquor store for slightly stronger black butte porter |
| 17:23.39 | stderr | If your interpretation of the 2nd amendment is to prevent further tyranny (I know mine is), having civilians untrained in the weapons they own is more of a hazard to any sort of insurgency you may want to participate, rather than a benefit. |
| 17:24.25 | tensai | I think training classes are a good idea. I took a hunters ed course in high school. they're required in idaho to get a hunting license. |
| 17:24.37 | JoshH | same here tensai |
| 17:24.40 | tensai | but I'm not convinced any sort of class would stop a lunatic from going on a rampage at a diner |
| 17:24.45 | JoshH | i took it when i was 14 though |
| 17:24.48 | jsmith | took it in junior high school |
| 17:25.09 | JoshH | and i had to shoot a .22 for some reason |
| 17:25.16 | maquis | stderr: all the more reason for the government *not* to require training... |
| 17:25.16 | JoshH | can't remember if you could use any gun or not |
| 17:25.19 | maquis | :( |
| 17:25.21 | JoshH | but i always hunted with a bow |
| 17:25.40 | maquis | tensai: i don't think the point of the training is to stop someone from going on a rampage... |
| 17:25.48 | rsimpkin1 | JoshH: So, how big of gun should I be able to own? Did you figure it out? |
| 17:26.00 | maquis | just like drivers ed isn't to stop someone from driving their car through the house of someone they're mad at |
| 17:26.15 | JoshH | i don't have a hard limit in mind, rsimpkin1 |
| 17:26.49 | tensai | maquis: I agree, but JoshH implied it would stop you "weak[ing] havoc at a mall" |
| 17:26.53 | rsimpkins | JoshH: So, as big as I want? |
| 17:27.10 | stderr | maquis: why is that? |
| 17:27.15 | JoshH | that's not really the point of training, but it is the point of background checks, waiting periods, etc |
| 17:27.34 | JoshH | you don't need that to get a 12 gauge at wally world |
| 17:27.38 | JoshH | but you do for other types of guns |
| 17:27.52 | tensai | ah, I see your point |
| 17:28.27 | JoshH | but honestly i don't think a 20 minute training session would help much either |
| 17:28.29 | maquis | stderr: the point of training is to teach people *how* to use it responsibly. the purpose of the class isn't to instill morals, although it can be mentioned |
| 17:28.40 | stderr | maquis: Right... |
| 17:28.47 | JoshH | i was raised around guns and taught safety practices from a very young age |
| 17:28.48 | rsimpkins | maquis: What about bringing back the militia? |
| 17:28.53 | JoshH | you can't pick that up in a short seminar |
| 17:28.56 | rsimpkins | I'm all for bringing back militias. |
| 17:29.14 | rsimpkins | Vigilante justice FTW. |
| 17:29.28 | maquis | JoshH: i'm thinking something on the level of drivers ed... a couple of sessions, and some instructor-led practice sessions... and perhaps a practical test... |
| 17:29.58 | JoshH | of course there will always be instructors that advertise the fastest, easiest, and cheapest classes too |
| 17:30.37 | JoshH | realistically, i don't think it's a great solution |
| 17:30.42 | JoshH | but probably better than nothing |
| 17:31.46 | rsimpkins | I honestly think that it is actually worse than nothing, but mmkay. |
| 17:32.02 | JoshH | worse in what way? |
| 17:32.16 | tensai | I'd like to know if any scientific studies have looked at whether background checks or waiting periods actually decrease gun violence |
| 17:32.25 | stderr | requiring people to train in the weapons they want to possess is worse than nothing? |
| 17:32.47 | JoshH | i don't think they do, tensai |
| 17:32.51 | rsimpkins | It comes down to the core issue - how big a gun should I be able to own? If there is no limit - what does that mean? Can I own a tank, as long as I take some class? |
| 17:32.53 | JoshH | but i can't recall any specific study right now |
| 17:32.59 | stderr | Ask the Iraqis how their insurgency went with little to no training in firearm use. |
| 17:33.03 | JoshH | you can own tanks right now |
| 17:33.11 | JoshH | doesn't the mozy guy own one? |
| 17:33.29 | rsimpkins | I don't think you can arm it. |
| 17:33.43 | rsimpkins | You can own it as a historical item. |
| 17:33.45 | stderr | rsimpkins: I think any weapon that is tactically sound and realistic to use in small unit operations should be trainable to obtain. |
| 17:33.46 | JoshH | i believe you can get things like grenade launchers, with the right permits and approval from the ATF and sherriff |
| 17:34.07 | rsimpkins | stderr: Where does it say that in the constitution, excactly? It says arms, not small arms. |
| 17:34.13 | stderr | JoshH: well, you can _make_ a grenade launcher. The problem comes in purchasing 40mm grenades. |
| 17:35.01 | JoshH | but in general, for the kind of weapons that civilians generalyl don't have, i think that steep fees, applications approved by ATF and the local sherriff are what it takes |
| 17:35.34 | rsimpkins | So, should I be able to own - say - an artillery cannon? |
| 17:35.41 | rsimpkins | Cause that'd rock! |
| 17:35.43 | JoshH | obviously i don't think everyone should be able to have a bazooka, but i'm not a fan of the assault weapons ban as it was |
| 17:35.58 | tensai | JoshH: I have a hunch they don't either but I'd like to know if anybody (without an agenda) has actually studied it |
| 17:36.00 | JoshH | because it seems like it just banned various features that collectors like to have |
| 17:36.13 | JoshH | full auto weapons were already regulated separately anyway |
| 17:36.24 | JoshH | and the ones that are legal are incredibly expensive |
| 17:36.51 | JoshH | my stepdad had a full auto mac11, and sold it for several thousand dollars, more than 10, iirc (a few years ago) |
| 17:37.36 | JoshH | it wouldn't have been practical for mass slaughter though, since the full clip emptied in about 2 seconds |
| 17:38.19 | JoshH | it was basically a toy for quickly putting a bunch of holes in a target |
| 17:41.00 | rsimpkins | IMHO, it was a major mistake to create the national guard. We should have never done that. But now that it is an institution, we are stuck with it. And it is not compatitible with the bill of rights, and that document hasn't been updated to reflect it. |
| 17:41.42 | neybar | if I make a change in a pam module, with that be reflected immediatly, or do I need to restart something? I'm trying to setup vsftp with virtual users with pam_pwdfile, but I can only login with actual users. |
| 17:41.45 | JoshH | i think having reserves for the military that are actualy in the military is a good thing |
| 17:42.06 | JoshH | but i see no reason they should be mutually exclusive with a well trained and regulated civilian militia |
| 17:42.36 | rsimpkins | JoshH: I'm sure you'll remember your american history, and what a state or county militia actually consisted of, and how those groups eventually fell under federal control. |
| 17:42.38 | tensai | neybar: you may have to restart the daemon. I can't recall precisely. |
| 17:43.28 | rsimpkins | Therefore, the bill of rights does not reflect modern elemnts that were common 220 years ago. |
| 17:44.48 | rsimpkins | Of course, the courts will have to figure out what 'well regulated' means, but I think it is common sense. |
| 17:46.25 | rsimpkins | What do you think would happen if we all got our rifles, went down to the park, and started doing drills? |
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| 17:51.43 | JoshH | i think that might actually be legal, rsimpkins, but i don't know for sure. |
| 17:51.54 | JoshH | well, not if by drills, you mean shooting |
| 17:52.09 | JoshH | but if you mean walking around and twirling them and stuff... |
| 17:52.23 | maquis | neybar: stay on topic... :P |
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| 17:55.42 | neybar | maquis: sorry. |
| 17:57.29 | maquis | neybar: wasn't quite certain if i was trying to say to stay off-topic or on-topic... but... :P\ |
| 17:58.06 | goozbach | neybar: pam config changes happen without any restarts |
| 17:58.19 | goozbach | but any daemon which may have opened a config or such needs to be restarted |
| 18:03.08 | romanovic | rsimpkins, on a side note, the U of U ROTC does drills up at red butte gardens with rubber duckys, and people regularly complain (at least they did when i was in ROTC several years ago) |
| 18:04.22 | romanovic | (rubber ducky == fake M4 or M16, but looks and weighs the same) |
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| 19:36.55 | unum | hmmm i suddenly can't overwrite file on an nfs mount |
| 19:37.15 | unum | I guess I shouldn't say suddenly we did run yum update recently |
| 19:47.32 | maquis | unum: lol |
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| 20:26.46 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-71-42.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:27.00 | sjansen | Wow, another great marketing decision by Microsoft. |
| 20:28.02 | sjansen | The same people who gave us the Zune, with it's ability to squirt songs at friends, have decided that Microsoft Live Search is more likely to succeed if it's called Bing. |
| 20:28.37 | goozbach | BING! |
| 20:28.51 | goozbach | it's got a certian... ring to it *eyebrow* |
| 20:34.34 | unum | ya because the reason i didn't use it was because it had a stupid name |
| 20:34.41 | ^Migs^ | B.I.N.G. = Bing Is Not Google |
| 20:34.42 | unum | not because google is a billion times better |
| 20:34.48 | unum | ^Migs^: nice |
| 20:35.14 | unum | msn used to block people from searching for xfree86 |
| 20:35.20 | unum | xfree69 was fine btw |
| 20:35.41 | unum | what kind of search engine doesn't let people look for porn? |
| 20:36.17 | ^Migs^ | and they're calling it a "Decision Engine" not "Search Engine" |
| 20:36.35 | maquis | wonders what's wrong with searching for xfree86 |
| 20:36.40 | unum | oh ya that will make it so all the teenagers use it |
| 20:37.07 | unum | maquis: msn used to tell you it was an inappropriate search term |
| 20:37.22 | maquis | huh? |
| 20:37.48 | ^Migs^ | from the video I'm not seeing one innovative thing |
| 20:38.46 | unum | http://forum.weborum.com/index.php?showtopic=261&pid=1996&mode=threaded&start= |
| 20:38.47 | brac | [MSN search blocks Xfree86 - Weborum Webmaster Forum] |
| 20:38.50 | unum | explains it better than I |
| 20:39.29 | unum | Xorg used to be called xfree86 btw |
| 20:39.46 | unum | technically xorg is a fork of xfree86 |
| 20:40.06 | ^Migs^ | that forum doesn't really explain anything |
| 20:41.10 | unum | just that it was blocked |
| 20:41.26 | ^Migs^ | so how is it explained better than you can explain it? |
| 20:41.34 | ^Migs^ | you must really suck at explaining stuff ;) |
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| 20:41.39 | unum | apparantly |
| 20:58.05 | tensai | sjansen: I seem to recall you looking for a debian equivalent of rpm --verify |
| 21:00.32 | sjansen | tensai: Not anymore. I now know that you have to add a package and that even after doing so it's still lame. |
| 21:01.08 | sjansen | IIRC, it basically adds a trigger to DPKG, creating the hash as files are installed, but without as much metadata as RPM. |
| 21:01.09 | tensai | not as useful, true. I needed such a thing today and debsums is sufficient for my purposes. |
| 21:01.45 | tensai | the package I've got is comparing md5sums which are already installed by dpkg |
| 21:02.22 | tensai | there were about 50 packages which it couldn't find md5sums for though |
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| 21:37.26 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@techhat.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:46.31 | tensai | apparently those 50 missing md5sums were related to the problem I was initially having. had to reinstall about 70 packages in total. |
| 21:55.35 | jsmith | tensai: Crazy... |
| 21:56.12 | tensai | some kind of on-disk corruption, but I can't tell where it came from. ram looks good. raid1 claims it's consistent. |
| 21:56.36 | jsmith | You mean, both copies of the data are equally bad :-p |
| 21:59.14 | tensai | heh. pretty much |
| 22:06.18 | fungus | raidz ftw! |
| 22:25.54 | *** join/#utah Lone_Wanderer (n=Dan@c-24-10-162-205.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:25.55 | brac | Forces Lone_Wanderer to learn the Win32 API |
| 22:25.59 | Lone_Wanderer | Ahh, finally. |
| 22:26.58 | Lone_Wanderer | In tcsh, is it possible to make vim edit all the files that are returned by grep -l ? |
| 22:27.59 | sjansen | fungus: Magic ponies for the win! |
| 22:28.22 | Lone_Wanderer | leads sjansen to a magical candy cave and then steals his kidney. |
| 22:29.03 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: Friends don't let friends use tcsh. |
| 22:29.14 | Lone_Wanderer | It appears to be the only shell on this machine. |
| 22:29.31 | sjansen | But seeing as you just drugged me and stole my kidney... maybe you're getting what you deserve. |
| 22:29.48 | Lone_Wanderer | :'( I should have known not to steal the guru's body parts! |
| 22:30.37 | unum | supposedly our vendor recommends tcsh |
| 22:32.35 | sjansen | Your vendor is either smoking crack or stuck in a time loop. |
| 22:32.47 | sjansen | I suggest trying to contact Dr. Who for help. |
| 22:32.48 | unum | time loop |
| 22:32.54 | unum | they think it's the 60's |
| 22:33.29 | Lone_Wanderer | Ha! I was wrong, bash is on this machine. Just not where I thought it was. |
| 22:33.42 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: OS? |
| 22:34.07 | Lone_Wanderer | No clue. I just tried sshing in with the FTP credentials I have on a whim. |
| 22:34.10 | Lone_Wanderer | How do I find out? |
| 22:34.40 | sjansen | If it's sun, let me guess you found it under /opt/gnu/xpg/werefreakingmorons/betchacantfindyourhippietools/bash ? |
| 22:34.54 | Lone_Wanderer | no I just typed "bash" |
| 22:34.56 | unum | when I went to their conference everything was tie died |
| 22:34.56 | Lone_Wanderer | no pathname |
| 22:34.56 | unum | I have no idea how you are suppposed to spell that |
| 22:34.59 | Lone_Wanderer | so I still don't know where it is |
| 22:35.07 | jsmith | which bash? |
| 22:35.21 | jsmith | I mean... "which bash" didn't work? |
| 22:35.26 | Lone_Wanderer | /usr/local/bin/bash |
| 22:35.29 | JoshH | if you're ssh'd in, uname |
| 22:35.33 | Lone_Wanderer | Does now :) |
| 22:35.39 | Lone_Wanderer | FreeBSD |
| 22:35.48 | sinuhe | If you type bash --version, it will tell you what it was compiled for |
| 22:35.55 | sinuhe | Ah. uname works too |
| 22:36.09 | Lone_Wanderer | Okay cool. |
| 22:36.18 | Lone_Wanderer | So, now I've got this text file with filenames, one per line |
| 22:36.33 | Lone_Wanderer | is there any way to edit them, one at a time, with vim? |
| 22:36.55 | Lone_Wanderer | (There are 270 files, I don't think opening them all at once would be a good idea.) |
| 22:37.29 | rsimpkins | Lone_Wanderer: for x in `ls *filemask`; do vim $x; done - that work? |
| 22:38.01 | rsimpkins | But with 270 files, I'd be wondering if there was a perl script that could be written to automate it. |
| 22:38.11 | Lone_Wanderer | That's probably a better idea. |
| 22:38.32 | Lone_Wanderer | All I really need to do is replace one domain name with another one in every file. |
| 22:38.46 | rsimpkins | ahh, in that case you don't even need perl. |
| 22:39.02 | sinuhe | That sounds like a job for sed or awk |
| 22:39.04 | Lone_Wanderer | cool |
| 22:39.44 | rsimpkins | Lone_Wanderer: http://www.brunolinux.com/02-The_Terminal/Find_and%20Replace_with_Sed.html |
| 22:39.47 | Lone_Wanderer | makes a note of when he stops doing billable work and starts reading about Awk |
| 22:39.50 | brac | [Find and Replace with Sed] |
| 22:39.56 | Lone_Wanderer | thanks |
| 22:40.16 | tensai | perl -p -i~ -e 's/example.com/other.example.com/' |
| 22:41.03 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: uname -a |
| 22:41.54 | rsimpkins | Yeah, perl one liners are way better, but harder for people who don't know what they do to remember. |
| 22:42.22 | Lone_Wanderer | That's only going to touch files inside the directory I'm in now, right? |
| 22:42.54 | rsimpkins | Best learn to fish rather than be given a fish on this one. |
| 22:43.01 | sjansen | The vast majority of perl one liners I've seen can be accomplished more easily and with less overhead using good ole' coreutils. |
| 22:43.58 | sjansen | rsimpkins: for FILE in `ls bad_habit*` <-- Always a mistake. |
| 22:44.10 | rsimpkins | Yeah, I know that's bad. |
| 22:44.33 | sjansen | rsimpkins: for FILE in good_habit* <-- Glob handles whitespace correctly |
| 22:44.57 | rsimpkins | I stand corrected. |
| 22:45.06 | sjansen | rsimpkins: find -name 'best_habit*' | while read FILE <-- Won't exceed the maximum command length. |
| 22:45.34 | rsimpkins | Okay, now that's just getting snarky! :) |
| 22:46.46 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: As far as I'm concerned, awk is rarely the correct tool for any job. |
| 22:46.56 | Lone_Wanderer | awk isn't a core util? |
| 22:47.12 | sjansen | A temptation to use awk usually indicates either: |
| 22:47.22 | sjansen | a) You don't know the rest of the core utils well enough |
| 22:47.43 | sjansen | b) You're doing something complex enough you should use a real language like Perl, Python or Ruby. |
| 22:48.19 | Lone_Wanderer | okay |
| 22:48.31 | sinuhe | sneezes bull-shit in the corner. |
| 22:48.38 | rsimpkins | lol |
| 22:48.39 | sjansen | ~language sinuhe |
| 22:48.40 | ibot | ACTION grabs sinuhe by the ear and washes sinuhe's mouth out with soap |
| 22:48.41 | maquis | i really hate it when i have something working one day, then come back and for some reason it doesn't work the next day, and nothing i do fixes it |
| 22:49.38 | sjansen | Lone_Wanderer: The one exception is when you need super portable code. In theory, there might be a *nix server out there without Perl installed (probably in a parallel universe), in which case you'd need awk. |
| 22:50.00 | sinuhe | finds ~language to be an interesting detractor. |
| 22:50.24 | sinuhe | ducks |
| 22:50.29 | sjansen | You want interesting? I'll give you interesting! |
| 22:50.36 | sjansen | ~silence sinuhe |
| 22:50.37 | ibot | ACTION shoves an apple in sinuhe's mouth, shoves a spit through ... well, uhm, anyway ... then builds a nice fire and starts roasting |
| 22:52.04 | sinuhe | ibot is so violent |
| 22:53.45 | Lone_Wanderer | so, sjansen, how should I tackle this problem? perl? |
| 22:53.52 | sinuhe | sed |
| 22:53.55 | sjansen | What's the exact problem? |
| 22:54.03 | sinuhe | Wait, sorry sjansen; that was directed at you |
| 22:54.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I have a txt file with a list of filenames |
| 22:54.47 | Lone_Wanderer | need to replace all instances of "domain1" in all of those files with "domain2" |
| 22:55.05 | rsimpkins | In the time we've talked about it, it could have been completed like 6 different ways. |
| 22:55.36 | Lone_Wanderer | Unfortunately, I don't know what any of those ways are. |
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| 22:55.50 | Lone_Wanderer | I trust that sjansen will point me in the right direction without giving me the answer. |
| 22:55.57 | sinuhe | lol |
| 22:56.06 | sjansen | Step 1) Install the GNU coreutils which has a decent version of sed. ;-) |
| 22:57.27 | sjansen | cat list.txt | while read FILENAME; do sed 's/domain1/domain2/g' "$FILENAME" > "${FILENAME}.new"; mv "${FILENAME}.new" "$FILENAME"; done |
| 22:58.29 | Lone_Wanderer | ok |
| 22:58.31 | Lone_Wanderer | thanks |
| 22:58.53 | sjansen | Always a good idea to make a backup of the data before running something like this. |
| 22:59.01 | Lone_Wanderer | nods. |
| 22:59.16 | sjansen | Oh, and toss in a rm "${FILENAME}.new" in there too. |
| 23:00.27 | maquis | what in the world??? |
| 23:00.33 | maquis | i didn't touch nothin! |
| 23:00.34 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm assuming the backup would look something like cat list.txt | while read FILENAME; do cp "${FILENAME}" "${FILENAME}.old"; done |
| 23:00.35 | Lone_Wanderer | ? |
| 23:00.45 | maquis | i just used ls and less |
| 23:00.48 | maquis | neither of those should change anything |
| 23:01.19 | Lone_Wanderer | maquis: one time I made a mirror of a site using wget --mirror and the next day got accused of deleting their htdocs directory |
| 23:01.59 | maquis | i'm so confuddled |
| 23:08.06 | unum | some dynamic sites have delete links |
| 23:08.24 | unum | in which in case that would delete their files |
| 23:08.34 | *** part/#utah Gruph (n=Gruph@tux.ikano.com) |
| 23:10.05 | Lone_Wanderer | unum: That's what I thought at first too, but I made the site and knew that there was no such link. |
| 23:12.42 | sjansen | unum: Not an excuse for two reasons. 1) wget obeys robots.txt 2) eventually another spider, or the infamous Google Bar pre-fetch accelerator, would have found the link |
| 23:13.40 | sjansen | Any developer that makes it possible to delete data with an HTTP GET should have their developer license revoked. |
| 23:17.01 | tensai | sjansen: no need for the rm since you mv the file |
| 23:17.47 | sjansen | slaps head |
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| 23:57.05 | RyanE | I had a web page that would toggle my office ceiling fan, that Google spidered once a week. Oops! |
| 23:57.26 | RyanE | but at least you couldn't *delete* the ceiling fan... :) |