| 00:00.37 | maquis | if i was a complete idiot, i could probably do a ton of damage to my company, and to our customers |
| 00:01.19 | Sargun | well, you couldn't' kill anyone |
| 00:01.30 | Sargun | and you'd have to actually do _something_ |
| 00:01.39 | Sargun | being lazy wont hurt people |
| 00:01.40 | maquis | Sargun: true |
| 00:02.32 | maquis | but dental hygienists work with the same level of stuff as x-ray technicians... |
| 00:03.14 | maquis | i bet the machinery also has some level of safeguard to make sure that things aren't too dangerous, too |
| 00:04.59 | Sargun | some |
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| 00:08.35 | mgeary | does anyone here happen to work for an ISP? |
| 00:08.42 | maquis | notes that mgeary's nick makes her think of madame giry in phantom of the opera for some reason |
| 00:08.49 | maquis | points at tensai |
| 00:08.53 | Sargun | Why? |
| 00:08.55 | maquis | he does something like that |
| 00:09.09 | Sargun | does network engineering |
| 00:09.11 | Sargun | kind of. |
| 00:09.52 | mgeary | well, the long version is that i'm trying to help someone find a good solution to providing wireless internet access to a couple of side-by-side 4-plexes that are owned by a single owner. |
| 00:10.28 | Sargun | uhm |
| 00:10.33 | mgeary | trying to see if there are any multi-unit-friendly ISPs that don't require unwarranted measures like one subscription per residential unit |
| 00:10.38 | Sargun | speakeasy |
| 00:11.11 | mgeary | they have service in utah county? |
| 00:11.13 | Sargun | why would you need to find someone who works for an ISP |
| 00:11.15 | Sargun | for that |
| 00:11.16 | Sargun | covad? |
| 00:11.31 | Sargun | does covad provide service in utah county |
| 00:11.54 | mgeary | because the owner of the properties would prefer to do things on-the-level. Presumably there are ISPs out there that have a model for this kind of subscription |
| 00:12.08 | mgeary | i mean, it's easy to set up a wide wifi network on a single subscription |
| 00:12.20 | mgeary | but if that's prohibited by the isp, it causes problems sooner or later |
| 00:12.47 | Sargun | speakeasy is probably your best bet |
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| 02:43.39 | stderr | http://www.veracode.com/blog/2009/05/but-thats-impossible/ |
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| 04:56.07 | tensai | ooh, source based routing in linux is cool |
| 04:56.10 | tensai | lartc++ |
| 05:19.36 | levi | tensai: What's cool about it? |
| 05:19.52 | tensai | it's just easier than I was expecting I guess |
| 05:21.00 | tensai | it solved my problem rather handily, which is also nice |
| 05:21.13 | levi | What was your problem? |
| 05:22.52 | tensai | I've got a gre tunnel with a network routing over it. I needed to route out a different interface whenever a packet came in from a device on that network. |
| 07:27.33 | Supaplex | ip can do that w/o lartc in like two rules, and one line added to /etc/iproute2/rt_tables |
| 08:07.24 | Supaplex | that's just scarry. my external usb stick has more storage space than the internal server hdd. |
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| 14:05.09 | eightyeight | Supaplex: heh. that's awesome. maybe you should get more usb sticks, plaid raid them, put them on lvm, and get more disk space! |
| 14:05.22 | eightyeight | or you could just go to best buy and get a new drive. :) |
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| 16:00.31 | tensai | utah's own bob bennett was one of the 5 who voted against the credit cardholder's bill of rights |
| 16:01.09 | fadein | w00t! proud to be a utahn! |
| 16:03.04 | unum | this is the same bob bennett who voted to give those same companies my tax money right? |
| 16:03.52 | Heartsbane | ya |
| 16:03.57 | unum | of course he's just voting how he feel he needs to inorder to beat shurtleff at the convention |
| 16:03.59 | jsmith | Wait... where are the American Express headquarters? |
| 16:04.02 | jsmith | ducks |
| 16:04.35 | unum | he doesn't care what I think since I'll be at the other convention |
| 16:04.49 | unum | I much more interested in the governor race. |
| 16:05.12 | JoshH | we're goign to get shurtleff as a senator, herbert as governor, probably followed by john valentine, and who knows what else |
| 16:05.17 | JoshH | i want to curl up and die |
| 16:05.32 | Heartsbane | k nancy boy |
| 16:05.46 | JoshH | ok, i don't want to die |
| 16:06.10 | Heartsbane | Flip flopper!!! |
| 16:06.25 | unum | Mitt Romney!!! |
| 16:06.28 | JoshH | but i have a feeling my complaining about utah is going to surpass previous record levels |
| 16:06.33 | unum | ok maybe you're not that big of a flip flopper |
| 16:06.44 | unum | JoshH: agreed |
| 16:07.06 | JoshH | carl wimmer's comments about how great herbert is going to be yesterday made me twitch |
| 16:07.10 | unum | though really the trend over all is not in that direction. just in the republican party. |
| 16:07.21 | unum | maybe we can shake a few more voters loose |
| 16:07.26 | JoshH | i doubt it |
| 16:07.46 | Heartsbane | I just want a moderate like Huntsman, I think Herbert is going to go to the far right |
| 16:07.56 | unum | Hatch should retire in three years |
| 16:08.05 | unum | we might be able to get someone decent there |
| 16:08.17 | unum | and herbert will be challanged in the convention |
| 16:08.44 | JoshH | utah repubs are saying they don't want anyone to challenge herbert now |
| 16:09.05 | JoshH | and i can only think of 2 or 3 utah dems that would have a prayer of winning |
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| 16:09.41 | unum | I wonder if Scott would try again |
| 16:09.45 | unum | I hope he will |
| 16:09.50 | JoshH | jim might try |
| 16:09.59 | JoshH | i'd rather see corroon |
| 16:10.00 | unum | ya, I read that in the trib |
| 16:10.12 | mgeary | hi folks. Hey does anyone here have significant knowledge with Provo's fiber network? Can only Broadweave use it? |
| 16:10.17 | fadein | I don't think Herbert has much to worry about in any kind of election using his new shiny voting machines |
| 16:10.22 | unum | I don't know that a non-mormon could win state wide office |
| 16:10.36 | unum | fadein: good point |
| 16:10.52 | JoshH | who isn't mormon? |
| 16:10.55 | unum | I really like corroon and would vote for him myself |
| 16:11.02 | unum | I don't think corroon is |
| 16:11.18 | unum | actually I'm pretty sure I've seen him drinking... |
| 16:11.19 | JoshH | i just assume any dem in office in utah is also mormon, but just doesn't flaunt it as much |
| 16:11.32 | JoshH | even rocky was technically mormon |
| 16:11.55 | unum | corroon's wikipage says he's a devoute catholic |
| 16:12.03 | JoshH | so at least he's religious |
| 16:12.09 | JoshH | that might be all it takes |
| 16:12.12 | unum | ya, maybe |
| 16:12.38 | unum | I really like him, and he has a good track record, other than the planning division thing |
| 16:12.48 | JoshH | as a pretty liberal person, i really liked huntsman moderate, centrist style. and since his popularity was so high, i can't be the only one |
| 16:12.56 | JoshH | his republican detractors were very vocal though |
| 16:13.17 | unum | I voted against him because I was afraid he'd leave office |
| 16:13.25 | unum | though I didn't think it was that likely under Obama |
| 16:14.14 | unum | a lot of people are saying this means that moderate republicans have written office the 2012 presidents race |
| 16:14.35 | JoshH | the non-moderate republicans in utah are thrilled about herbert |
| 16:14.42 | JoshH | and that's because he's not moderate either |
| 16:15.30 | unum | some of them are. my libertarian brother is backing that fred guy already |
| 16:16.13 | JoshH | well libertarians are different |
| 16:16.37 | unum | ya |
| 16:16.56 | unum | my brother tells me the parties have the marriage issue backwards |
| 16:22.56 | JoshH | i'm more worried about other things |
| 16:23.46 | JoshH | i was hoping that huntsman might be open to some bills getting rid of our 3.2 beer that i heard might be drafted up in the next session, but now that's even less likely |
| 16:25.43 | unum | ya |
| 16:25.59 | unum | I would have liked to seen more progress on education |
| 16:26.07 | unum | that's the really important issue to me |
| 16:26.12 | Jayce^ | yeah, cutting it back would be nice :) |
| 16:26.30 | Jayce^ | goes back to work :) |
| 16:26.42 | unum | ya because I much rather pay for people to be in prison their entire adult lives, than pay for their education |
| 16:26.46 | unum | makes much more sense |
| 16:27.00 | Jayce^ | yeah, those obviously work out.. |
| 16:27.12 | unum | more often than not yes it does |
| 16:27.41 | unum | I mean the education works out |
| 16:27.52 | unum | in case someone missed the sarcasm earlier |
| 16:27.58 | Jayce^ | no not really..just in the usual lets people think that spending their way to success works so well :) |
| 16:28.00 | maquis | just don't go the route of washington and base *everything* on tests... |
| 16:28.20 | maquis | seriously, these days the schools won't cover some topics because "it's not on the WASL" |
| 16:28.28 | unum | maquis: I agree with nader local schools and parent groups should have more control |
| 16:28.41 | unum | I think the death of history is the worse aspect of NCLB |
| 16:28.45 | Jayce^ | s/more/all of the/ |
| 16:28.51 | maquis | or, if students are really interested in a topic, the schools won't go in-depth in it because they already covered the information that's on the WASL |
| 16:29.20 | unum | Jayce^: with in costitutional boundries |
| 16:29.29 | Jayce^ | what boundries? |
| 16:29.37 | unum | you can't take my tax money to teach religious principles |
| 16:29.38 | Jayce^ | looks for educational requirements in there |
| 16:29.40 | neybar | I'm on the verge of pulling my son out of public school, I just don't know where to put him next. |
| 16:29.52 | unum | s/principle/concepts |
| 16:29.55 | Jayce^ | unum: THERE SHOULDN"T BE FEDERAL MONEY IN THERE |
| 16:30.10 | unum | states are also bound by the constitution |
| 16:30.12 | Jayce^ | and unum there is *no* reason that they can't teach religious concepts |
| 16:30.28 | Jayce^ | saying you must exclude it is a modern perversion in undestanding |
| 16:30.34 | unum | it's my money the FLDS church can not take it to teach their teachings |
| 16:31.10 | neybar | you can't take my tax money and teach leftist priciples! /sex protection vs absitinence/ insert favorite rail here. |
| 16:31.26 | unum | neybar: that's true. |
| 16:31.34 | maquis | *shrug* |
| 16:31.37 | unum | atleast in this state |
| 16:31.41 | maquis | anything like that should be handled by parents |
| 16:31.55 | maquis | i went to a school where condoms were available in the bathrooms for free, provided by the school |
| 16:32.11 | maquis | it was a big school initiative |
| 16:32.41 | unum | in logan places that teach about leftist principles aren't allow to be tax exempt. only the rightist ones |
| 16:32.52 | unum | actually I think that motion failed, but they tried |
| 16:33.02 | levi | I wish some people I know had got a more thorough education in the pregnancy prevention department. |
| 16:33.12 | maquis | a friend of mine tried to start a christian prayer group and was told that she couldn't because it was not something they wanted at the school, but they allowed a gay/lesbian group to function at the school |
| 16:33.41 | unum | levi: I really do think it should be ok to talk about health relationships AND the statistics of various forms of birth control |
| 16:34.04 | maquis | despite all that, i feel like i got a good education, and i didn't feel like i ended up going down the wrong path or losing my personal faith as a result |
| 16:34.54 | unum | sweet Chaffetz and the ACLU you've got to love news like that |
| 16:35.05 | unum | it's the top story on /. btw |
| 16:35.13 | maquis | unum: what is? |
| 16:35.29 | unum | chaffetz and his anti full body scan bill |
| 16:37.37 | JoshH | i think students should be able to form whatever kinds of groups they want |
| 16:37.49 | JoshH | i don't care if a bunch of kids get together and pray, or talk about what it's like to be gay |
| 16:38.36 | levi | I'm not really sure what the point of abstinence education is. I mean, it's pretty obvious to anyone who's had the basics of sex ed that if you don't do it, you don't get pregnant. |
| 16:38.37 | unum | agreed |
| 16:38.56 | unum | on both points |
| 16:38.57 | JoshH | there isn't a point to it |
| 16:39.19 | Tene | Last time I looked, all the evidence suggested that abstinence-only education didn't affect the rates of teen pregnancy at all. |
| 16:39.28 | JoshH | the people who support that just don't want their kids to think about sex at all, and they think that if they get sex ed, they won't ever think about it, or have it |
| 16:39.37 | JoshH | err, if they don't |
| 16:39.37 | levi | Tene: Of course it wouldn't. |
| 16:39.42 | JoshH | or something |
| 16:40.42 | JoshH | i get the whole "that stuff should be taught at home" thing, but honestly, i don't think i should have to stand up with a cutout board showing all the parts and explaining what the various tubes do in our living room |
| 16:40.46 | JoshH | that should happen at school |
| 16:40.50 | maquis | i saw an interesting article in the news today about a boy who doesn't want chemo for a treatable form of cancer because of religious beliefs. the state he's in has a law saying that parents are required to provide treatment for children. i thought that was a very interesting concept, but I rather disagree with the state law. |
| 16:41.03 | Tene | Supporting absitinence-only education is a very strong signal to the relevant population, "HAY LOOK AT ME I SHARE UR VALUES!!!", but it's not actually effective at anything. |
| 16:41.18 | maquis | JoshH: from what i've seen, that part does happen in schools... at least it did in the schools i've seen |
| 16:41.35 | levi | That happened in the schools I went to. |
| 16:41.49 | levi | We got taught about birth control methods, too. |
| 16:42.11 | JoshH | it happens in most places, but now and then a parent will get outraged and demand some kind of changes |
| 16:42.12 | unum | we didn't talk about birth control methods |
| 16:42.23 | JoshH | i think i had to get some kind of paper slip signed |
| 16:42.27 | Jayce^ | we even had the fun condom over the banana example |
| 16:42.29 | Tene | There have been several cases of preventable deaths caused by parents not seeking medical services for "religious reasons" |
| 16:42.42 | unum | we learned that boys just wanted sex and the older men liked to use younger women with out dads for sex |
| 16:42.45 | Tene | it's pretty horrible. |
| 16:42.51 | unum | we also learned the making out will lead to sex |
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| 16:43.04 | JoshH | what about rock and roll and dancing? |
| 16:43.35 | unum | JoshH: no that's only in lehi |
| 16:43.45 | unum | that they teach that |
| 16:44.10 | unum | no mention of condoms or any form of birth control |
| 16:44.48 | unum | once in high school a guest speaker mentioned in passing that birth control pills need to be taken regulary to be effective |
| 16:45.23 | unum | one class assignment was to come up with saying that encourage abstinence like, don't be a ding a ling, wait for the ring |
| 16:45.39 | unum | don't be a slut keep your legs shut |
| 16:45.41 | maquis | Tene: i agree that there is a chance of preventable deaths, but the kid is a teenager, and he has stated that he does not want treatment. i think that there's something to be said for someone making a personal choice based on their beliefs |
| 16:46.00 | JoshH | if he's a teenager, i think it should be his decision |
| 16:46.14 | Tene | maquis: yes, but it's *his* choice. |
| 16:46.31 | Tene | The cases I'm talking about are with young children, or infants. |
| 16:46.39 | JoshH | pretty much every choice a person makes is based on their beliefs |
| 16:46.57 | JoshH | if i choose to watch the NBA playoffs instead of american idol, i'm choosing that based on my beliefs |
| 16:47.38 | Tene | I can choose to not get chemo for any reason at all, even nonsense, or no reason. |
| 16:48.24 | Tene | we hold parents responsible for the care of their children, though, and if I have a child that gets a disease that's curable through antibiotics, but I let my child die without even trying, that's a problem. |
| 16:48.36 | JoshH | i don't see anything particularly noble abotu a decision to do something just based on religous beliefs, vs any other reason |
| 16:48.56 | levi | Tene: Eventually, though, as you scale age down, you get into the tricky territory of whether you're really making your own decision or not. The teenage years are going to be particularly tricky to legislate. |
| 16:50.14 | maquis | i think that forcing someone to go against their ethical/moral beliefs is wrong in the vast majority of cases. |
| 16:50.45 | JoshH | we don't let the polygamists abuse their little kids just because of their religious beliefs... oh wait |
| 16:50.56 | levi | What if that someone is 4 years old, though? What about 8? 12? |
| 16:51.23 | Tene | JoshH: polygamy isn't the problem there. |
| 16:51.27 | JoshH | in theory, religous beliefs aren't a valid reason to neglect your children |
| 16:51.52 | JoshH | if you're an adult christian scientist, and would rather die from the flu than take some medicine, that's your call |
| 16:52.05 | JoshH | but if your kid needs help, you need to do something about it |
| 16:53.07 | maquis | JoshH: at what age can the kid make their own decision? |
| 16:53.30 | JoshH | depends |
| 16:53.40 | maquis | what amount of input can the parents have on the kid's decision? |
| 16:53.44 | JoshH | how old is this chemo guy? |
| 16:53.49 | maquis | 13 |
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| 16:54.05 | maquis | he has some learning disabilities as well, but he believes strongly that chemo is not something that he wants |
| 16:54.12 | JoshH | well, that's a bit young |
| 16:54.52 | Tene | And I'd say that he's just been misinformed by his parents. |
| 16:54.55 | JoshH | if he's against chemo for religious reasons, i'd feel that that is simply because that's what he was taught, and he's not really capable of disagreeing |
| 16:55.13 | JoshH | if he's against it because he doesn't like the side effects, i'd support that |
| 16:55.29 | maquis | JoshH: why is there a distinction |
| 16:55.31 | maquis | he doesn't want it |
| 16:55.35 | Tene | Would you still agree if he believed strongly that participating in mass suicide so he can get to heaven was what he wanted? |
| 16:56.13 | levi | maquis: We regularly make kids do things they don't want to do. |
| 16:56.20 | JoshH | i think the reason he doesn't want it is an important factor |
| 16:56.22 | levi | And it's a good thing. |
| 16:56.45 | JoshH | what if he didn't want it because an adult told him it would make santa claus not come to him anymore? |
| 16:56.53 | maquis | Tene: that's an interesting question. |
| 16:57.12 | levi | We regularly make adults do things they don't want to do, too. And that's still sometimes a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. |
| 16:58.42 | levi | Society doesn't work if everyone gets to do exactly what they feel like. |
| 16:58.47 | JoshH | i like how the amish people let their 18 year olds live out in the real world for a year and do whatever they want before deciding to commit to the religion and lifestyle |
| 16:59.12 | levi | So, is anyone getting a Palm Pre? |
| 16:59.26 | JoshH | i don't think a kid taught that chemo is against his religion really has any chance of making an informed decision |
| 16:59.26 | Tene | levi: I prbably will. |
| 16:59.39 | maquis | i guess i look at it from the point of view of how I would feel if I was in their position. I don't know much about their beliefs, but I can think of potentially a situation where there could be a controversial treatment that I felt was ethically wrong... would i want the government to say that I had to provide that for my child, even though I felt it was wrong? |
| 17:00.10 | levi | maquis: By definition, you wouldn't want the government to tell you to do it. |
| 17:00.12 | Tene | I'd like to actually try using a preÌ before deciding, though. |
| 17:00.19 | JoshH | maquis: in general, i think it comes down to parental rights, but there are always specific cases that need to be dealt with separately |
| 17:00.22 | JoshH | this is one of those |
| 17:00.47 | maquis | what if i believed that providing that treatment to my child would cause me to break promises I had made to God. does the government have the right to tell me to break those promises? |
| 17:01.03 | levi | maquis: In some cases, clearly yes. |
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| 17:01.31 | maquis | levi: i'm not sure that this particular state law would stand up in the supreme court, honestly. i would be interested in seeing it, though |
| 17:01.54 | elg | heh. this is just a tad pretentious. not offensively so, but it's funny. "Once logged in, click on the link in the "Congratulations" statement to access your offer package. " |
| 17:02.13 | levi | maquis: If you promised God you'd go sacrifice your only child on an altar on a hill, the government would certainly have the right to stop you. |
| 17:02.26 | Tene | There are existing court decisions saying "Invoking the word 'religion' is sufficient reason to let your child die from a clearly preventable cause" |
| 17:02.34 | Tene | iirc |
| 17:02.44 | Tene | I need to find references, though. |
| 17:03.03 | JoshH | if so, that might be legally right, but not morally |
| 17:05.28 | levi | maquis: Of course, if *you* were the insane person who promised that to God, you'd by definition disagree. But you would be wrong, and you'd have to do it secretly and face the legal consequences when you were found out. |
| 17:06.03 | elg | even if you were right, by God, you would have to pay the legal consequences |
| 17:06.15 | elg | sustain and uphold the law and all that. |
| 17:06.21 | JoshH | personally, i've never understood why religion has to be included as a protected category in the anti-discrimination laws, like race and gender. it's something you choose to believe, not something you're born with. with so many different beliefs out there, ranging from wearing funny clothes to letting children die, it just doesn't make sense to treat it the same as those other things |
| 17:06.44 | fungus | levi: so anyone who promises God something is considered "insane"? |
| 17:07.10 | JoshH | i understand freedom of religion and all that, and not having any government sponsored religion, but i think we take it a little overboard in this country sometimes |
| 17:07.38 | macnewbold | this country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution... |
| 17:07.43 | elg | ~dict insane |
| 17:07.45 | macnewbold | so it's a sensitive topic |
| 17:07.59 | JoshH | if the promise that you make to god is that you will never let your kid have medical treatment, then yes, you're insane |
| 17:08.02 | fungus | JoshH: all people are created equal. period. it's very simple. |
| 17:08.06 | elg | by definition, if others don't believe you, you're insane |
| 17:08.11 | elg | in their eyes |
| 17:08.23 | JoshH | created equal, yes |
| 17:08.29 | JoshH | but once created, it goes from there |
| 17:08.44 | fungus | If that is insane, then isn't pretty much every religion insane? |
| 17:09.03 | elg | yup |
| 17:09.08 | JoshH | well, yes, but not all are harmfully so |
| 17:09.12 | fungus | ok, that's acceptable |
| 17:09.19 | elg | except the one that isn't of course ;-) |
| 17:09.27 | JoshH | there's a difference between harmless insanity and dangerous insanity |
| 17:09.28 | fungus | lol |
| 17:09.40 | elg | that's why it's silly to go about persecuting others for their religious beliefs |
| 17:09.49 | elg | silly and all-too-common |
| 17:09.50 | fungus | I just wanted to be clear about where the insanity line is. |
| 17:10.06 | elg | me personally I think I want to side against the crazy lady |
| 17:10.24 | Jayce^ | fungus: it's that one you jumped over a while back while running :-p |
| 17:10.28 | JoshH | note that if i say "i swear to god i'm going to find whoever wrote this crappy software and strangle their whole family", that doesn't make me insane |
| 17:10.32 | elg | but i'm content to not have to side |
| 17:10.59 | elg | JoshH: it does if his family are football players |
| 17:13.10 | sjansen | ~flog elg |
| 17:13.11 | ibot | ACTION whips elg with a cat-5 o' nine tails |
| 17:14.07 | levi | fungus: If you seriously believed God wanted you to kill your child, I would think you were insane. If you seriously believed God wanted you to be nice to your neighbor or some other generally good thing, I probably wouldn't think you were insane. The sanity of the person in question isn't really relevant to the government, anyway, just the fact that they want to kill someone. |
| 17:14.25 | macnewbold | insanity IMHO has to do with irrationality |
| 17:14.37 | macnewbold | not beliefs per se |
| 17:14.43 | macnewbold | but beliefs that can't be justified as rational |
| 17:14.52 | macnewbold | but of course the definition of rational is subjective too |
| 17:14.55 | levi | macnewbold: Everyone is irrational. Insanity is not irrational. |
| 17:15.14 | macnewbold | so mostly insanity is defined as deviating "too far" from the norm |
| 17:15.16 | fungus | levi: you are basing insanity based on good vs evil. That is incorrect |
| 17:15.39 | levi | fungus: No, I just gave two examples, your inference is invalid. |
| 17:15.39 | fungus | not all bad people are insane, and many good people are insane |
| 17:15.57 | macnewbold | levi: irrational to a degree... they may have say an "irrational" fear of spiders, but it isn't irrational for them if they've had a very bad experience with spiders |
| 17:16.04 | levi | I gave no test for insanity, I just posited an insane person and you inferred some test. |
| 17:16.36 | fungus | yes I did infer it, because we have no evidence that that person is insane |
| 17:16.43 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, if God wants me to climb a mountain and sacrifice my son, he'd better help keep the government out of my way. If I try to do my part, and He doesn't run interference with the fuzz, it must not have been very important to Him. |
| 17:16.59 | fungus | sjansen: lol |
| 17:17.06 | levi | macnewbold: People do not make decisions based on reason. They make them based on emotion, instinct, and intuition and later filter some of them through a reasoning process to justify them. |
| 17:17.37 | fungus | note to god, don't choose sjansen for prophetic duty. |
| 17:17.39 | levi | fungus: That person was, by definition, insane because it was my hypothetical scenario and I said so. |
| 17:17.57 | levi | fungus: Go make up your own hypothetical scenario if you really want God telling people to kill their children. |
| 17:18.08 | levi | I'll still say the government should try to stop it, though. |
| 17:18.15 | fungus | I agree |
| 17:18.50 | fungus | But I disagree that, based on the evidence you provided we can conclusively prove they are insane. |
| 17:19.15 | sjansen | levi: I'm strongly inclined to buy a Pre, but not 100% committed until I've help one in my hand and played with it for a while. |
| 17:19.18 | JoshH | i think it was vontrapp here who said he would actualy kill people if the prophet told him to |
| 17:19.20 | levi | I never tried to conclusively prove anything. I just said so, because I am an omniscient narrator. |
| 17:19.23 | JoshH | i'd say he's insane |
| 17:19.33 | fungus | labeling them as such, may create a link between insanity and religion, or insanity and killing |
| 17:19.38 | Jayce^ | JoshH: and he'd likely say the same about you.. |
| 17:19.44 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 17:19.49 | JoshH | probably, but that doesn't change the facts |
| 17:19.56 | neybar | which facts? |
| 17:20.00 | sjansen | JoshH: If you choose to join the military and your commanding officer tells you to kill someone, are you insane for complying? |
| 17:20.27 | JoshH | depends |
| 17:20.29 | macnewbold | it depends if you're complying for religous reasons ;) |
| 17:20.43 | JoshH | if it was an actual battle, then no |
| 17:20.47 | sjansen | JoshH: You allergy to religion doesn't make other people insane. |
| 17:21.23 | JoshH | but if it was a little girl in a house that we were searching and my squad leader told me to shoot her for no reason, then yes |
| 17:21.33 | levi | Well, certainly we're not happy with Muslim mujahideen killing us based on their religious leaders' commands. |
| 17:21.57 | maquis | JoshH: what if your commander didn't tell you why they were telling you to shoot her? |
| 17:22.05 | JoshH | then i wouldn't do it |
| 17:22.26 | elg | I think the best we can do is make our own moral judgements and agree as a society on a set of laws and uphold them |
| 17:22.35 | levi | elg: Exactly. |
| 17:22.56 | elg | that means some people's moral judgements will place them outside the law, and they have to deal with that either by fudging their morality or by facing the consequences agreed upon by the whole |
| 17:23.24 | JoshH | that's basically what we do |
| 17:23.26 | maquis | they've had little children carry remotely-detonated bombs up to military bases to kill soldiers in the past. makes for some interesting ethical dilemmas (particularly if you believe that the children who have done that in the past did not know what they were carrying) |
| 17:23.28 | elg | yup |
| 17:23.37 | elg | and by that reasoning, this lady is in the wrong |
| 17:23.45 | JoshH | my issue is when the moral judgments we make are based on irrationality and "beliefs", rather than reason and logic |
| 17:24.07 | elg | reason and logic aren't very good at dictating morals |
| 17:24.09 | JoshH | which is why i'm fine with laws against murder, but rant often about our 3.2 beer restrictions |
| 17:24.20 | maquis | JoshH: what is rational to you and what is rational to me doesn't necessarily match |
| 17:24.23 | elg | you can use them, in combination with beliefs |
| 17:24.29 | elg | beliefs like it's bad to let people die |
| 17:24.32 | elg | or it's bad to kill people |
| 17:24.37 | elg | but those are in the end also beliefs |
| 17:24.45 | neybar | reason and logic also aren't very well defined. They generally depend on a specific set of either experiences, socially accepted norms etc. |
| 17:24.56 | elg | yup |
| 17:25.04 | JoshH | i think it's natural to conclude that it's best for everyone if we don't murder eachother, or steal eachother's stuff, etc |
| 17:25.11 | neybar | I don't find the muslim culture to be very reasonable to me, but to millions it is very reasonable |
| 17:25.19 | elg | JoshH: of course you do |
| 17:25.21 | elg | you're american |
| 17:25.26 | JoshH | and that it doesn't take a lot of philosophizing to come to that conclusion |
| 17:25.32 | elg | not if you're american |
| 17:25.51 | elg | but there have been societies, and maybe there are some even now, that didn't value life that much |
| 17:25.53 | JoshH | french people feel the same way |
| 17:25.58 | JoshH | and australians |
| 17:26.11 | elg | yes. so do I |
| 17:26.20 | Jayce^ | elg: there are plenty that way now, they just view different classes of people, based on caste, religion, sex, etc |
| 17:26.22 | elg | but it's still based on the belief that preservation of life is important |
| 17:26.25 | fungus | JoshH: have you ever read nietzsche? he rationalized lots of killing, and such |
| 17:26.26 | sjansen | I don't think our opposition to killing people is obviously better for society. |
| 17:26.38 | JoshH | i have not, fungus |
| 17:27.05 | sjansen | Just imagine how much easier it would be to fix social security if we added mandatory euthanasia. |
| 17:27.07 | elg | i was listening to a thing about black widow spiders and how the male dying during mating was an evoluationary benefit |
| 17:27.09 | fungus | Yeah, it's possible to use reason and logic to support anything depending on the facts you use to reason with. |
| 17:27.13 | levi | Rationality does not give you right/wrong absolute answers, it only gives a formal system for coming to conclusions from premises. |
| 17:27.33 | levi | Ultimately, all decisions are irrational. |
| 17:27.39 | Jayce^ | you can rationalize anything to be right, because you bring everything to your own beliefs |
| 17:28.06 | fungus | reason and logic should be tempered with something closer, not necessarily religion, but your own internal morality. |
| 17:28.13 | levi | Human beings are fundamentally irrational. |
| 17:28.29 | elg | right. and we have a more or less agreement on what's moral and our laws are the logic based on those agreed-upon morals |
| 17:28.45 | elg | of course that doesn't stop us from bickering with each other over the finer points of the morals, and with our ancestors |
| 17:28.56 | levi | Sometimes the laws aren't even logical. I would even go so far to say often. |
| 17:29.07 | elg | certainly |
| 17:29.14 | maquis | levi: agreed |
| 17:29.14 | maquis | :) |
| 17:29.20 | levi | The virtue of law is that it is recorded and an attempt is made to enforce them fairly. |
| 17:29.21 | elg | but in premise at least they are an attempt at logic :) |
| 17:29.28 | sjansen | But, but, but... my personal prejudices are clearly the definition of sanity! |
| 17:29.56 | Jayce^ | I'm the sane one, everybody else is off their rocker.. |
| 17:29.57 | levi | elg: I wouldn't even go that far. I would say they're an attempt at reducing the arbitrariness of enforcement. |
| 17:30.02 | Jayce^ | just to rephrase sjansen :) |
| 17:30.03 | elg | that's funny, I thought your personal prejudices were clearly the definition of insanity ;-) |
| 17:30.10 | sjansen | If you disagree with me, you are by definition immoral. |
| 17:30.16 | JoshH | ok, now people are making sense |
| 17:30.50 | elg | levi: I wouldn't lift a finger to defend my earlier statement. :) I'll leave the defense of the sanity of law (if it has any) to the lawyers |
| 17:31.55 | elg | so for me, I think the lady is insane, but she should be allowed to be insane if she wants, but not at the expense of the life of a minor |
| 17:32.55 | elg | presuming medicine can actually help the kid live a normal life, and not just lie in a sick bed for a year or two until he dies. if that's the case it becomes insanity vs insanity |
| 17:33.12 | elg | but mostly i'm glad I don't have to decide |
| 17:37.04 | levi | Before the rule of law, those in power could decide the fate of others basically at their whim. The primary virtue of written law was creating a standard that people knew they were being held to, which kept the whims of the rulers in check. Logic had little to do with it; I think it was originally just a codification of traditional rules of behavior mixed in with some whims and maybe a bit of reasoning. :) |
| 17:37.25 | elg | ~heart rule of law |
| 17:37.26 | ibot | I ⤠rule of law |
| 17:38.52 | levi | Even now, I think the law roughly follows the aggregate feelings, emotional responses, cultural values, instincts, and intuition of the citizenry more than any coherent logical system. |
| 17:39.16 | elg | well, but at a second level of indirection |
| 17:39.19 | elg | via our lawmakers |
| 17:41.37 | levi | The lawyers generally make a big deal out of the logic and reasoning and whatnot, and end up making huge tomes of new legal reasoning out of the process, but I think that's more counterproductive than anything. |
| 17:42.40 | levi | But precedent of previous decisions makes at least as much impact on new decisions as any lawyerly logic. |
| 17:43.24 | sjansen | My cat's breath smells like cat food. |
| 17:43.45 | levi | Anyway. Enough of the political/philisophical stuff. |
| 17:44.02 | stderr | sjansen: my kitten sucks on my hair and it's like trying to rip a leech off |
| 17:44.26 | tensai | sjansen: my baby's breath sometimes smells like cat food |
| 17:44.39 | elg | my baby sometimes smells like poo |
| 17:44.49 | elg | we're not sure why yet, or if it's serious |
| 17:44.52 | levi | elg: Only sometimes? |
| 17:45.44 | elg | well after we put him through the washing machine he doesn't |
| 17:46.00 | sjansen | http://tweetingtoohard.com/top |
| 17:46.02 | brac | [Tweeting Too Hard] |
| 17:46.31 | levi | I hope the Palm Pre is successful, and that the Android market picks up as well. I'm a big iPhone/iTouch fan, but I'd love for this new generation of usable smartphones to really take off and most importantly, get cheaper and drive down data plan costs. ;) |
| 17:47.12 | tensai | just found out that work is sending me a smart phone. not sure what kind yet, but I think it's windows mobile. |
| 17:47.21 | levi | Ew. |
| 17:47.42 | elg | tensai: maybe you can use it as a coaster |
| 17:47.56 | elg | do you have a coffee table you want to protect? |
| 17:48.00 | levi | Well, my wife has an older windows mobile PDA, and it's not so awful that she couldn't use it. |
| 17:51.30 | sjansen | My boss's Windows Mobile has been nothing but a pain. Random lockups, data loss, reduced battery life. |
| 17:52.13 | elg | at first I read that as "random backups" |
| 17:52.26 | elg | random backups are better than no backups, but no data loss is preferable |
| 17:56.15 | *** join/#utah romanovic (n=romanovi@67.182.248.31) |
| 17:57.02 | *** part/#utah romanovic (n=romanovi@67.182.248.31) |
| 17:57.04 | *** join/#utah romanovic (n=romanovi@67.182.248.31) |
| 18:02.21 | maquis | blackberries are okay... iphone is better.... |
| 18:02.36 | maquis | win mobile... i haven't ever tried, and have no intention of trying |
| 18:02.55 | maquis | i've heard good and bad things about android, but haven't had a chance to try it |
| 18:03.16 | elg | my bro seems to like his android |
| 18:04.20 | goozbach | andriod is slow sometimes, but it's nice |
| 18:04.32 | goozbach | the G1 is an OK platform |
| 18:04.43 | goozbach | just give me a freakin headphone jack |
| 18:04.59 | maquis | there's no headphone jack? |
| 18:05.09 | goozbach | nope |
| 18:05.18 | goozbach | some usb-b like jack at the bottom |
| 18:05.28 | goozbach | and the headphones plug into an adaptor |
| 18:05.42 | elg | that's dumb |
| 18:06.03 | goozbach | that, and the fact that the whole face doesn't toggle out of the way for the keyboard are my only two gripes |
| 18:07.00 | tensai | I've heard battery life complaints about the g1 |
| 18:07.52 | goozbach | it'll last me a day |
| 18:07.52 | goozbach | that's all I ask |
| 18:07.52 | elg | hey is anyone in here john jones the third? |
| 18:07.52 | tensai | my enV has battery issues too |
| 18:07.53 | goozbach | though I loved my treo 755p |
| 18:08.00 | goozbach | could go three days without charging |
| 18:10.52 | *** join/#utah ccjoe_ (n=ccjoe@69.20.152.109) |
| 18:10.54 | unum | some remind me to look up moblin when the site's not slashdotted |
| 18:11.05 | unum | I wonder if they have an easy install iso for my eeepc |
| 18:11.21 | tensai | ~onjoin unum check out moblin when it's not slashdotted |
| 18:11.21 | ibot | tensai: ok |
| 18:12.06 | sjansen | The general impression I've got from the G1 is that Google is still a newb in the phone world. It's first product is interesting, but I'm waiting for the 3.0 |
| 18:12.53 | Supaplex | eightyeight: it's a lab server, so it's just making use of the craptastic spare parts, ya know? no need for performance and total spiffyness. |
| 18:13.30 | Supaplex | perhaps I could mod it to use esata. |
| 18:17.08 | sinuhe | elg: Ask that in Wales, and at least half the hands would go up. :-) |
| 18:17.25 | elg | :) |
| 18:18.38 | Jayce^ | elg: I'm pretty sure I work with a guy with that name |
| 18:18.45 | levi | sighs |
| 18:19.31 | levi | It looks like I'm going to have to hack this RTOS kernel to get a debug trace of events. :/ |
| 18:19.40 | elg | well he's your pal on FB, and harleypig and TimRiker. I assume I may have met him at PLUG or something |
| 18:20.02 | elg | but I don't remember him specifically, but I was curious if maybe he is one of you IRC people. |
| 18:20.10 | Jayce^ | don't think he's been before, but is looking at coming in the future |
| 18:20.24 | elg | also tries to decide whether to accept his cousins on FB as friends |
| 18:20.33 | elg | high school age |
| 18:20.54 | elg | if i accept some cousins that aren't even close to my age, I'll feel obliged to accept all cousins that aren't close to my age ... |
| 18:21.38 | maquis | elg: ignore the invite? |
| 18:21.43 | maquis | pretend like it doesn't exist? |
| 18:22.02 | elg | that's what I've been doing. but it does so clutter the pending invites page :) |
| 18:22.17 | elg | from their perspective, me clicking on ignore is the same as me ignoring it indefinitely |
| 18:22.41 | elg | they don't get notified that I rejected them |
| 18:24.12 | maquis | they don't? then go ahead and reject them :) |
| 18:25.09 | elg | otoh, accepting friendship is a nice gesture ... and then if I unfriend them later they also receive no notification |
| 18:25.14 | elg | i just silently slip away |
| 18:26.24 | sjansen | This is why you should've signed up for FB with a fake name and only friended celebrities. |
| 18:28.32 | elg | you mean like how I joined twitter as Ashton Kutchner? |
| 18:30.12 | unum | I don't have any linux people as facebook friends |
| 18:30.28 | unum | i've been trying to balance out my profile. when I first joined it was all church people. |
| 18:30.36 | unum | now it has a bunch of political people |
| 18:31.01 | sjansen | Not exactly. If I signed up w/ FB, I'd be Prince Atreyu, High Bulp of the Republic of Elbonia. |
| 18:31.15 | elg | the political people on fb are the least fun |
| 18:31.26 | elg | i mostly have my political friends ignored |
| 18:31.35 | elg | as in hidden on the news feed |
| 18:32.03 | elg | regardless of their actual views |
| 18:32.42 | elg | and the same goes for people who are excessive twitter -> facebook status or "took the ____ quiz" |
| 18:34.14 | unum | because of all my church friends I have stuff like "Brighm Young" and "the Book of Mormon" all down the right side |
| 18:34.29 | unum | I should become a fan of the aclu |
| 18:34.45 | unum | and equality utah |
| 18:36.05 | Supaplex | note to self. rechargable shavers plugged into the outlet/light combo in the bathroom only charges when the lights are on. doh. |
| 18:36.13 | JoshH | i still haven't even registered for any social networking crap |
| 18:36.17 | sjansen | ~shave Supaplex |
| 18:36.18 | ibot | ACTION grabs the razor & shaving cream & chases Supaplex until he sees TheRedBaron... then grabs TheRedbaron & dry shaves TheRedBaron from head to toe! |
| 18:36.26 | JoshH | i'll hold out as long as possible |
| 18:37.08 | elg | what about nickserv? did you register with him? |
| 18:37.55 | sjansen | NickServ doesn't require to apply some artificial friendship label to everyone I know. |
| 18:38.04 | unum | I finally gave in because I'm involved with big brother big sisters and my little asked me to join |
| 18:38.37 | elg | sjansen: yes, but IRC could be considered a sort of social network in a sense |
| 18:38.40 | elg | an archaic unixy sense |
| 18:38.59 | elg | what you're really saying is you haven't signed up for any artificial friendship sites. ;-) |
| 18:39.21 | sjansen | Most of the recent tech crazes like twitter and face book just make me feel old. |
| 18:39.34 | elg | you knew something would have to do that |
| 18:39.42 | sjansen | Once upon a time, I used to be an early adopter and advocate. |
| 18:39.50 | elg | be thankful it's just social networking and not something like an ulcer |
| 18:40.01 | eightyeight | Supaplex: you don't want to supe it up, but you want to hack in esata? |
| 18:40.03 | sjansen | Now I must be like 65 in tech years. |
| 18:40.08 | eightyeight | ~confuse Supaplex |
| 18:40.09 | ibot | yes how is your pineapple yesterday ? |
| 18:42.12 | unum | hahaha I became a fan of RMS. |
| 18:42.28 | elg | haha |
| 18:43.08 | JoshH | yes, i'm ok with online communication, like irc |
| 18:43.26 | JoshH | but i hate the idea of these social sites where you tag people as friends and then post what you are doing and everyone sees it |
| 18:43.37 | elg | well calling FB online comms might be a stretch, but I don't think it's much of a stretch for twitter |
| 18:44.04 | sjansen | I like knowing what my friends are doing. I just wish they'd blog instead. |
| 18:44.10 | JoshH | agreed |
| 18:44.20 | Supaplex | eightyeight: no need either way really. it's just a pety lab box. |
| 18:44.24 | JoshH | i used to hate blogs actually, but now compared to everythign out there, i think blogs are wonderful |
| 18:44.54 | eightyeight | Supaplex: just giving you crap |
| 18:45.13 | elg | sjansen: one of my good friends used to have a blog. now it just says "Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along." |
| 18:45.21 | elg | he must have joined twitter or something |
| 18:45.24 | eightyeight | sinuhe: have you given up on debian? |
| 18:47.01 | eightyeight | if twitter would just take the time to get their xmpp bot straightened out, it wouldn't be such a crappy service |
| 18:47.37 | sjansen | elg: I think I know that guy. Devastatingly handsome? Incredibly smart? Anyway, turns out he has a hidden blog with most his 5 year old content imported. He just hasn't finished getting it ready for public consumption or adding new content. |
| 18:47.53 | JoshH | twitter would be ok if people used it to post useful information oly |
| 18:48.09 | elg | yeah, that's the one. incredibly bearded and lazy as a perl programmer |
| 18:48.18 | JoshH | but reading all the crap on there takes too much brainpower to sort through |
| 18:48.22 | elg | JoshH: s/twitter/the internet/ |
| 18:48.55 | JoshH | the internet in general is easier to get directly to what you're interested in with |
| 18:49.45 | JoshH | if you read a blog, you can quickly tell if a post is worth reading or not |
| 18:49.52 | JoshH | on twitter, you have to scan through everything, if you care enough |
| 18:52.21 | sinuhe | eightyeight: I still have my Sparc running Debian. |
| 18:53.03 | sinuhe | eightyeight: Debian's community a bit too political for me (says the FSF associate member). |
| 18:53.10 | sinuhe | s/a b/is a b/ |
| 18:53.40 | elg | what's debian's community? the debian development community or the debian users community? |
| 18:54.15 | elg | i know (knew) a whole lot of debian users that couldn't give a flying rat's toe about the politics. maybe most of them moved to ubuntu, but maybe not (it was mostly server users) |
| 18:54.29 | elg | with debian, community is who you hang out with |
| 18:55.41 | elg | take ibot for example |
| 18:55.43 | elg | ~politics |
| 18:55.44 | ibot | Yerp. Everyone has their own opinion. Please discuss them elsewhere. This is #debian, not #politics. [If you wanna discuss politics, that's cool, just do it elsewhere.] |
| 18:56.16 | sjansen | The type of people who choose to participate as DD's, and therefore have the power to define Debian, must have a high tolerance for politics. |
| 18:56.31 | sinuhe | elg: I am referring to voting members and the decisions affected from those members...or as Stuart said. |
| 18:57.00 | sinuhe | sjansen: You're not supposed to prempt my response, dang it. |
| 18:57.16 | sjansen | I didn't preempt. I anticipated. |
| 18:57.32 | eightyeight | sinuhe: so, what is on your laptop currently? |
| 18:57.34 | sjansen | And then I contradicted. |
| 18:58.03 | JoshH | i never cared about the debian politics |
| 18:58.10 | TimRiker | ~politics |
| 18:58.11 | ibot | Yerp. Everyone has their own opinion. Please discuss them elsewhere. This is #utah, not #politics. [If you wanna discuss politics, that's cool, just do it elsewhere.] |
| 18:58.19 | JoshH | but i used to install stock firefox manually instead of using iceweasel |
| 18:58.34 | JoshH | it worked fairly well actually |
| 18:58.55 | eightyeight | iceweasel, in my experience, doesn't render pages the same |
| 18:59.08 | eightyeight | i don't know why either |
| 18:59.20 | JoshH | supposedly it's all the same except for the name and icon |
| 18:59.29 | eightyeight | it's technically forked |
| 18:59.32 | JoshH | but i didn't want to use somethign with such a stupid name |
| 18:59.41 | eightyeight | and icon |
| 18:59.45 | JoshH | right |
| 19:00.04 | JoshH | i would just keep my stock firefox's plugins dir symlinked to the debian mozilla's |
| 19:00.04 | eightyeight | icedove at least redid their icon, and it's actually semi-professional looking |
| 19:00.24 | eightyeight | iceweasel's looks like a 6th grade contest winner |
| 19:00.37 | JoshH | so upgrading directly from within firefox never caused any problems |
| 19:00.40 | JoshH | just had to make a custom launcher |
| 19:00.50 | JoshH | i used the stock thunderbird too |
| 19:01.34 | JoshH | and then i switched to ubuntu |
| 19:03.38 | goozbach | my question... What's Cherokee? |
| 19:03.51 | elg | Cherokee is not Sioux |
| 19:04.19 | sinuhe | eightyeight: Fedora |
| 19:04.49 | eightyeight | goozbach: seems to me it was an apache fork |
| 19:05.48 | sjansen | Cherokee is not a fork, it is a from scratch Web server optimized for speed. |
| 19:06.13 | sjansen | Somewhat like lighttpd and family, but more featureful last I checked. |
| 19:06.40 | sjansen | I actually use Cherokee on my personal server instead of Apache. |
| 19:06.52 | goozbach | hence the question |
| 19:07.04 | goozbach | I was trying to "discover" the hidden blog |
| 19:07.53 | goozbach | I wonder if cherokee can do anything resembling the power of the apache mod_rewrite |
| 19:08.11 | goozbach | heck, I'm supprised Apache can do half the things we're doing with it |
| 19:47.49 | maquis | yawns |
| 19:48.16 | Supaplex | tosses spare lint into maquis open mouth |
| 19:49.27 | maquis | spits, trying to get the lint out of her mouth, and accidentally spits all over Supaplex |
| 19:50.01 | Supaplex | yay! rasberries! |
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| 20:07.14 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (n=jtolley@24.114.252.245) |
| 21:03.39 | *** join/#utah mulicheng (n=dennis@67.40.105.188) |
| 21:23.56 | tristanbob_ | anyone host blogs at wordpress.com? It looks like I would have to pay for features like a custom domain |
| 21:24.09 | tristanbob_ | are there any other good blogging hosts, better than Blogger? |
| 21:24.26 | tristanbob_ | free ones, that is |
| 21:25.53 | Supaplex | localhost is free |
| 21:27.57 | jsmith | tristanbob_: What, opposed to hosting it yourself? |
| 21:31.00 | mulicheng | localhost costs electricity + computer space + computer heat + server maintainance + possible bandwidth/usage costs depending on isp. |
| 21:31.19 | mulicheng | you have to compare if that is cheaper than somewhere else. |
| 21:32.00 | tristanbob_ | jsmith, I used to used email/web myself, but found out that I cannot provide enough bandwidth, horsepower, and availability that the free services provide |
| 21:32.09 | tristanbob_ | I agree mulicheng |
| 21:32.13 | unum | recommends linode again :) |
| 21:32.24 | mulicheng | I also hosted my own email/domain/dns for a time. |
| 21:32.53 | mulicheng | a good learning experience, but you just can't compete in the end... unless of course you spend the $$$, but then it isn't free of course is it. |
| 21:33.05 | Supaplex | oh now you want a blog that's there 24x7. perhaps localhost isn't for you. ;) |
| 21:33.24 | unum | if you are on comcast then it's definetly not :) |
| 21:33.40 | unum | that reminds me I need to find out where they've gotten on running UTOPIA into my place |
| 21:33.48 | maquis | prefers learning experiences over reliability for her own stuff |
| 21:34.02 | tristanbob_ | maquis, I sure learned a lot |
| 21:34.19 | tristanbob_ | first how to implement email/web services, then what it is like to get hacked |
| 21:34.28 | unum | you got hacked? |
| 21:34.33 | unum | how did they do it? |
| 21:34.36 | eightyeight | the truth comes out |
| 21:34.40 | unum | hope you weren't running ftp |
| 21:34.43 | eightyeight | bets ftp |
| 21:34.57 | unum | no one ever believes me when I tell them not to run ftp |
| 21:34.57 | tristanbob_ | I think all good IT people should be hacked at least once |
| 21:35.08 | tensai | maquis: with your history I bet you have lots of learning experiences :) |
| 21:35.10 | tristanbob_ | it is kinda like a failed business is a good thing |
| 21:35.15 | maquis | tristanbob_: i think that part can happen regardless of whether you've got servers up... but yeah... |
| 21:35.18 | maquis | tensai: of course :) |
| 21:35.35 | unum | I've diagnosed other systems, but afaik my own system has never been taken |
| 21:36.00 | maquis | tensai: learning experiences come running for me :) |
| 21:36.09 | mulicheng | what you don't know can hurt you :) |
| 21:36.24 | unum | we had one at work hacked. but when you run ssh on port 22 no time out restrictions and have login as mike with a password as mike, you're begging for it |
| 21:36.32 | tensai | maquis: you should put away the "will work for learning experiences" sign |
| 21:36.33 | eightyeight | synic got busted for running ftp |
| 21:36.53 | unum | the one linux hack I worked with was running ftp |
| 21:37.04 | tensai | unum: most (all?) of my intrusions were from weak passwords like that |
| 21:37.12 | tensai | charlie/charlie is the one I remember |
| 21:37.16 | maquis | unum: ouch |
| 21:38.07 | tensai | it's been a while though. my predecessors thought that firewalls were for sissies and compiled them out of the kernel. I've corrected that misconception. |
| 21:38.18 | unum | they started using it to probe others and it was reporter to our ISP and we just shut it down and restored it was dev box we were sharing with our vendor |
| 21:38.52 | unum | tensai: a firewall is a feature on the router, you don't need them on individual servers |
| 21:39.06 | unum | even when you decide to put one of the interfaces in the DMZ |
| 21:39.07 | mulicheng | unim: I agree |
| 21:39.11 | tensai | I beg to differ. security in layers. |
| 21:39.33 | unum | tensai: I agree with you I was being sarcastic because of a current experience |
| 21:40.03 | mulicheng | firewalls are a waste of time anyhow :P |
| 21:40.05 | unum | it was nice when a certain employee left because it gave me an excuse to lock down our servers |
| 21:40.12 | tensai | unum: my sarcasm detector is out for repairs |
| 21:40.35 | unum | I know he can still get him, I'm not really worried about him, but I shut out a lot of other people in the process |
| 21:41.04 | unum | eightyeight could have easily logged back in at anytime until I made those changes |
| 21:41.11 | unum | and he's the one that scares me :) |
| 21:41.22 | eightyeight | hah |
| 21:42.03 | eightyeight | you should be able to trust me. i've never given you any reason not to. at least i hope i haven't |
| 21:42.08 | eightyeight | so, you shouldn't be scared of me |
| 21:42.18 | Supaplex | mulicheng: not completely. -m recent beats fail2ban in my book. also, only permitting sensitive services from trusted locations has saved me before. |
| 21:42.47 | unum | eightyeight: I'm just kidding. I was scared of supervisors, because they could have logged in. |
| 21:43.13 | unum | but since someone had never heard of nmap he wasn't scared about those sort of things |
| 21:43.48 | eightyeight | that someone seemed smart in many areas. security didn't seem to be one of them |
| 21:44.11 | unum | ya |
| 21:49.03 | sjansen | ~hug linode |
| 21:49.04 | ibot | ACTION jumps into linode's lap and huggles and *hugs* linode |
| 21:49.47 | Supaplex | TimRiker: I think ibot wants to live with linode. |
| 21:49.57 | Supaplex | ibot: get a room |
| 21:49.58 | ibot | ACTION fetches a room |
| 21:51.39 | tensai | is out of both black and color ink :( |
| 21:51.42 | TimRiker | Supaplex: "-m recent" ? |
| 21:51.47 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (n=jtolley@24.114.252.245) |
| 21:51.54 | Supaplex | with iptables |
| 21:52.17 | TimRiker | what type of rules do you have with that? |
| 21:53.55 | TimRiker | something like 'if you try port 139 on this host, then DROP all traffic for 60 seconds"? |
| 21:54.44 | Supaplex | http://rafb.net/p/YBLoZB43.html |
| 21:54.45 | brac | [Nopaste - No description] |
| 21:55.17 | Supaplex | nawe. if you reconnect x times in y seconds, drop all traffic for that matching rule for z seconds until no new traffic matches the rule. |
| 21:55.46 | Supaplex | whitelist is on line 5 |
| 22:00.07 | TimRiker | you don't check to see if they were valid connections though, correct? so if you scp'd 5 times in a row from a greylisted ip, the 4th and 5th times would fail, yes? |
| 22:01.23 | Supaplex | yes, possibly. I usually whitelist myself manually if I expect to do that. or use ipsec anyway. |
| 22:02.37 | Supaplex | this'll be eaiser after I migrate it off openwrt. I have an 8gb cf card nearly ready to swap it with. |
| 22:02.56 | TimRiker | why do you have both SSHDOS and SSH names? they both have the same entries, no? |
| 22:03.25 | TimRiker | you could count 4 and count 20 off the same "name", correct? |
| 22:05.35 | Supaplex | I don't recall. it keeps syslog happy when the same source sweeps my subnet. I only get a sprinkle of logs. I prefer this over log limiting, so it'll ignore the source, instead of the frequency only. |
| 22:06.59 | TimRiker | thx for the example. it would certainly be smaller than fail2ban. |
| 22:08.30 | Supaplex | np |
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