| 00:02.56 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@12.160.38.65) |
| 00:14.19 | *** join/#utah wps_ (n=wps@12.160.38.65) |
| 01:13.52 | *** join/#utah Rolcol (n=Rolcol@unaffiliated/rolcol) |
| 02:07.27 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 02:16.36 | levi | Woot, Chuck got renewed for a 3rd season. |
| 02:17.03 | Tarrant | levi: Thanks for the news :) |
| 02:21.09 | levi | And Dollhouse, too. |
| 02:21.20 | levi | But not Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. |
| 02:30.29 | Tarrant | levi: Where are you getting your info? |
| 02:38.18 | levi | Various web pages and stuff. |
| 02:52.46 | *** join/#utah brasto1 (n=brasto@66-182-82-217.static.slcl007.digis.net) |
| 03:06.31 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@techhat.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:16.28 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@75-101-13-24.dsl.static.sonic.net) |
| 03:16.53 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 03:56.29 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_ (n=Sargun@75-101-13-24.dsl.static.sonic.net) |
| 03:58.32 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce^@74-81-244-222.static.sdyl005.digis.net) |
| 03:58.32 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 04:04.08 | Sargun | Tene, you're a redditor? |
| 04:04.08 | Sargun | http://blogs.gurulabs.com/stephen/2009/05/cross-language-library-loading.html |
| 04:04.21 | Tene | Yes. |
| 04:05.38 | Sargun | Cool. |
| 04:05.47 | Sargun | what subreddits do you subscribe to |
| 04:05.55 | Tene | programming, mostly |
| 04:06.10 | Tene | omg did u vote me up or downâ½â½â½â½ |
| 04:06.34 | Sargun | INTERROBANG! |
| 04:40.31 | Tene | sargun you didn't answer my question. :( :( :( |
| 04:56.48 | levi | Wow, this Linux partition on my laptop was getting dusty. |
| 04:58.00 | Sargun | uhm, oh, upvote. |
| 08:01.08 | Supaplex | ~tuna |
| 08:01.18 | Supaplex | ~tuna it |
| 08:02.54 | Sargun | tuna?! |
| 08:22.45 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 13:00.16 | *** join/#utah fugue88 (n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 13:01.03 | *** join/#utah rsimpkin1 (n=rsimpkin@io.ryansimpkins.com) |
| 13:07.27 | *** join/#utah jnbek|wc_ (n=jnbek@box287.bluehost.com) |
| 13:54.47 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 14:33.11 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce^@office2.bluehost.com) |
| 14:33.11 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 15:04.04 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@173-117-164-93.pools.spcsdns.net) |
| 15:04.04 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:08.30 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 15:16.42 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-7824ae2af0f1ceb1) |
| 15:32.10 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@208.110.152.42) |
| 15:33.01 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=user@97-117-72-236.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 15:45.20 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75-148-99-197-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 15:46.24 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
| 15:48.00 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 16:09.40 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
| 16:43.38 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 17:42.26 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 17:50.51 | ^Migs^ | http://twitshirt.com/ |
| 18:00.29 | *** join/#utah pashdown (i=pashdown@sine.xmission.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:00.38 | *** join/#utah Heartsbane (n=hearts@unaffiliated/heartsbane) |
| 18:00.39 | *** join/#utah gshipley (n=gshipley@nat/redhat/x-3ea6c8c3b7a1ffc6) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 18:04.11 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-017f82b16e552840) |
| 18:24.10 | ^Migs^ | http://notalwaysright.com/unhappily-ever-after/1967 |
| 18:32.06 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-ecb85ff0e5c3fd86) |
| 18:32.18 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-72-236.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:58.07 | maquis | ^Migs^: yeah... saw that yesterday :) |
| 19:02.56 | ^Migs^ | sorry |
| 19:12.49 | *** join/#utah mulicheng (n=dennis@67.40.105.188) |
| 19:34.10 | maquis | o/) tus secretos lo que suenes descubrir o/) |
| 19:34.39 | maquis | wonders how to make the squigly-n |
| 19:36.26 | goozbach | unicode 00f1 |
| 19:36.30 | maquis | shouldn't != doesn't |
| 19:36.31 | maquis | :( |
| 19:37.02 | goozbach | sueño |
| 19:37.18 | goozbach | 00D1 for capital |
| 19:37.21 | maquis | goozbach: great... now how do i make it do that in irssi? |
| 19:37.27 | goozbach | SUE |
| 19:37.42 | goozbach | SUEÃO |
| 19:37.54 | goozbach | ctrl-shift-u in gnome-terminal |
| 19:38.06 | goozbach | it's a feature of your terminal, not your irc client |
| 19:38.12 | maquis | ok... |
| 19:38.26 | goozbach | ctrl-shift-u changes your input to unicode |
| 19:38.33 | goozbach | then you type the number, and press enter |
| 19:38.37 | maquis | looks like my work box is running gnome-terminal... |
| 19:38.44 | maquis | f1 |
| 19:39.02 | maquis | doesn't look like it works to nicely for me |
| 19:39.32 | goozbach | so ñ is <ctrl>+<shift>+<u>, 00f1<enter> |
| 19:39.43 | maquis | 00f1 |
| 19:40.13 | goozbach | what's your $TERM |
| 19:40.28 | mulicheng | screen! |
| 19:40.29 | maquis | screen |
| 19:40.33 | goozbach | hmm |
| 19:40.36 | maquis | on all my terms :) |
| 19:40.43 | mulicheng | all mine too :) |
| 19:40.56 | maquis | blames goozbach for her $TERM being screen |
| 19:41.32 | g | doh |
| 19:41.45 | goozbach | nicks aren't unicode safe :( |
| 19:42.03 | maquis | heh |
| 20:04.07 | sjansen | Random trivia of the day: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-September/009972.html |
| 20:04.08 | brac | [Text file busy] |
| 20:18.06 | *** join/#utah jasonpr (n=jasonpr@216.58.247.235) |
| 20:20.15 | jasonpr | Hey I'm trying to decide what to write a new OSS app in. I'd like to take a quick poll. Who here likes Java/PHP |
| 20:20.33 | mulicheng | Python. |
| 20:20.37 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:20.58 | mulicheng | The question should be, what is the right tool for the job really. |
| 20:22.05 | jasonpr | I'm concerned with what the community is more comfortable with. So they can make changes. |
| 20:22.31 | jasonpr | I personally like java better. it seem like more of an enterprise platform |
| 20:23.15 | maquis | personally, i really don't like php... and java and i don't get along very well |
| 20:23.38 | maquis | as far as java goes, though, it depends on what you're doing with it |
| 20:23.49 | maquis | for php, i've seen very few situations where there wasn't a better tool for the job |
| 20:23.50 | Supaplex | perl6 :) |
| 20:23.54 | mulicheng | I personally found java better for larger teams. |
| 20:24.01 | ^Migs^ | you like java because it's more enterprisey? |
| 20:24.10 | mulicheng | but when you're doing things yourself, I found the overhead extremely annoying. |
| 20:24.22 | mulicheng | example: write a simple web app in Java... write it again with Python. |
| 20:24.30 | maquis | ^Migs^: it is more enterprisey... why that's a good thing is beyond me, but... |
| 20:25.03 | maquis | jasonpr: who are you trying to impress with this software? |
| 20:25.16 | jasonpr | every one :) |
| 20:25.24 | maquis | some big company CEO who knows nothing about software? or open-source devs who know what's going on? |
| 20:25.47 | jasonpr | CTO may know a thing or two |
| 20:26.01 | sjansen | Java isn't bad, it's just so heavy. Syntax heavy, mentally heavy, run time heavy, etc. |
| 20:26.15 | sjansen | PHP is bad. It causes brain damage. |
| 20:26.38 | Supaplex | i togram in php just fine, no dain brammages todays I says. |
| 20:26.49 | Supaplex | ;) |
| 20:26.57 | sjansen | Python is a great choice. |
| 20:27.21 | maquis | ruby is reasonable as a choice if you need scripting and/or web development, too |
| 20:27.52 | sjansen | Ruby is a fun language. It's sad to see the RAILs community dragging Ruby down. |
| 20:27.59 | mulicheng | heavy is a good way to describe Java. |
| 20:28.07 | sjansen | s/RAILs/Rails/ |
| 20:28.47 | Supaplex | is that the new php? |
| 20:28.54 | maquis | ruby is my tool of choice for tasks where i would otherwise use perl |
| 20:29.11 | sjansen | jasonpr: If you're looking to do Web dev, I've used _a lot_ of stuff and Django is definitely my favorite. |
| 20:29.35 | sjansen | No, PHP is the new PHP. |
| 20:29.38 | mulicheng | What is the app supposed to do, be? also good questions to ask... |
| 20:29.50 | mulicheng | don't use Ruby for a Win32 GUI in other words. |
| 20:30.07 | maquis | mulicheng: we tried asking, but he hasn't provided any info, so we're language bashing without requirements until he decides to answer |
| 20:30.10 | Supaplex | I've seen a use or two of rails that reminded me of php. poor programmers can taint any langauge. |
| 20:30.31 | jasonpr | Its supposed to be a rewrite of free PBX |
| 20:30.44 | jasonpr | that hooks into astersik and freeswitch |
| 20:30.54 | mulicheng | I'm personally coding a lot of straight C right now :) |
| 20:30.58 | sjansen | It's true that Ruby does have a non-trivial number of PHP users, but at least Ruby's cesspool isn't as deep. |
| 20:31.16 | maquis | jasonpr: what is the purpose of rewriting free PBX? |
| 20:31.27 | jasonpr | there are good reasons |
| 20:31.33 | sjansen | jasonpr: Ruby might be a good choice then. There's already some Asterisk/Ruby integration projects out there. |
| 20:31.51 | Supaplex | sjansen: agreed. :) |
| 20:31.58 | sjansen | In fact, I think our elg man it possible to use Ruby to write dial plans. (Or some such.) |
| 20:32.09 | sjansen | s/man/made/ |
| 20:32.30 | jasonpr | Does anyone here us XML, XSD, and WSDLs? |
| 20:32.30 | sjansen | s/our// |
| 20:32.47 | sjansen | jasonpr: Wash your mouth out! |
| 20:32.50 | sjansen | ~punish jasonpr |
| 20:32.51 | ibot | ACTION forces jasonpr to install and use Windows |
| 20:33.08 | maquis | ~language jasonpr |
| 20:33.09 | ibot | ACTION grabs jasonpr by the ear and washes jasonpr's mouth out with soap |
| 20:33.33 | sjansen | XML is okay, in moderation. XSD is the start of maddness. WSDL is raving lunacy. |
| 20:33.59 | Supaplex | sjansen: isn't your email tagline about XML? |
| 20:34.07 | Jayce^ | looks up from beating against WSDL's for the last two days and heartily agrees |
| 20:34.07 | maquis | has been burned too many times by stuff starting with X |
| 20:34.23 | sjansen | "XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problems, you're not using enough." -- someone or other |
| 20:34.34 | Supaplex | yup yup. |
| 20:35.50 | sjansen | jasonpr: XML has benefited from some incredible marketing over the last decade. Many of us have used for many things and we can tell you with certainty that it is only appropriate for a small subset of those things. |
| 20:37.18 | jasonpr | I use it extensivly. Good xml is hard to come by. I'm just wondering what the level of experience is out there with correct well formed and well documented XML |
| 20:37.54 | jasonpr | by documented I mean in your XSD and WSDL. LOL i've seen way to many 80pg work documents explaining each element |
| 20:38.00 | mulicheng | I think sjansen's point is that tons of people have experience with it. Most of them don't like it :) |
| 20:38.22 | jasonpr | good to know |
| 20:38.43 | maquis | jasonpr: i agree with mulicheng and jasonpr |
| 20:38.53 | maquis | i've had plenty of experience, and very little of it was positive |
| 20:40.09 | sjansen | XML was originally created as a more humane document markup language than SGML. Both were obviously designed by committee. It might be better than SGML, but hardly humane. |
| 20:40.32 | mulicheng | I replaced 10k lines of generated xml for a java db access with about 100 lines of Python once. That was a very positive experience with XML : (or getting rid of xml) |
| 20:40.39 | sjansen | As luck would have it, XML is pretty handy for data interchange. In moderation. Under the right conditions. |
| 20:41.26 | sjansen | Unfortunately, over the last decades repeated attempts have been made to "fix" problems with XML by using even more XML. |
| 20:42.02 | sjansen | So far, all this has really accomplished is lining the pockets of consultants and software vendors. |
| 20:42.05 | mulicheng | When in doubt, just add some Schema :) |
| 20:42.08 | jasonpr | yeah great for talking with dissimilar systems assuming they system you're talking to doesn't forget to include a name space or is missing a character |
| 20:42.33 | sjansen | I think it is safe to say at this point that XML is most useful went kept relatively lightweight, but described well. |
| 20:43.10 | jasonpr | Anyone had a good experience with an API that does all the XML for you? |
| 20:43.46 | sjansen | Anybody have good experience with bandsaws that do the cutting for you? |
| 20:44.08 | mulicheng | That's just a way of adding some air freshener to the stink in the bathroom really (in my opinion I guess) |
| 20:44.17 | jasonpr | Some vendors put out Apis to interact with their XML services |
| 20:44.19 | sjansen | The biggest problem with XML is repeated doomed attempts to make XML usable by people who refuse to learn anything new. |
| 20:46.14 | tensai | my teeth hurt |
| 20:46.51 | maquis | tensai: that's usually not good... |
| 20:47.06 | tensai | maquis: I blame xml |
| 20:47.12 | sjansen | There is no such thing as well designed, general purpose XML abstraction. |
| 20:48.03 | sjansen | The only successful APIs to hide XML as so special purpose they could have been hiding any protocol at all, like ASN.1 or Protocol Buffers. |
| 20:48.09 | sinuhe | sjansen: I think you nail the problem with XML these days: fix problem with XML by using even more XML. That doesn't criticize XML itself, however, but itse implementation. |
| 20:48.18 | jsmith | sjansen: I agree |
| 20:48.49 | tensai | jsmith: well aren't you just being agreeable today? |
| 20:49.13 | jsmith | tensai: Hey, after the morning I had... everything this afternoon is just hunky dorey |
| 20:49.28 | sinuhe | s/itse/its/ |
| 20:49.30 | goozbach | jsmith: I agree to your agreement |
| 20:49.41 | jsmith | tensai: You know, the "If you swallow a live frog first thing in the morning, nothing worse is liable to happen to you the rest of the day" maxim |
| 20:50.12 | sinuhe | I think one example of Stuart's statement might be certain transform technologies. |
| 20:50.19 | tensai | you know what they say, virginia is for frog lovers |
| 20:51.05 | tensai | or is it frog livers? well, whatever |
| 20:52.15 | sjansen | ~tensai++ |
| 21:02.39 | maquis | wonders if we scared off jasonpr... |
| 21:14.53 | Heartsbane | blames sjansen. |
| 21:16.06 | sjansen | We didn't need him. |
| 21:16.10 | sjansen | We don't need anybody! |
| 21:16.17 | sjansen | crawls off to his corner to cry |
| 21:17.34 | goozbach | selinux has gotten better, no? |
| 21:17.47 | goozbach | as far as CentOS 5.3 is concerned I mean |
| 21:17.59 | goozbach | I've not gotten bitten by an SELinux bug in a long while |
| 21:18.09 | jsmith | goozbach: Yes, it is better... |
| 21:18.21 | goozbach | but I just spent the last 30-40min trying to figure out why nagios wouldn't start |
| 21:18.29 | goozbach | I could run it manually via the command line as root |
| 21:18.45 | goozbach | but the second I tried to start it with the init script... KABLooey! |
| 21:19.03 | Supaplex | you should have a nagios event for that. |
| 21:19.40 | goozbach | yeah yeah, sure sure, |
| 21:20.33 | goozbach | what's the CLI version of setroubleshooter |
| 21:20.36 | goozbach | ? |
| 21:23.47 | goozbach | nevermind |
| 21:23.50 | goozbach | I just cheated |
| 21:24.23 | goozbach | 'chcon --reference' to the rescue |
| 21:51.33 | *** join/#utah romanovic (n=romanovi@67.182.248.31) |
| 21:58.27 | Sargun | stabs goozbach |
| 21:58.31 | Sargun | ~lart goozbach |
| 21:58.31 | ibot | plops goozbach into a giant vat of herring |
| 22:15.37 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan1.securesites.net) |
| 22:18.19 | *** join/#utah Jayce^_ (n=Jayce^@office2.bluehost.com) |
| 23:32.14 | maquis | ~herring |
| 23:32.23 | maquis | ~herring Sargun |
| 23:32.24 | ibot | ACTION whacks Sargun on the side of the head with a large red herring named alfred |
| 23:32.36 | maquis | ~botsnack |
| 23:32.36 | ibot | maquis: thanks |
| 23:32.46 | Sargun | I don't ever want to get an X-ray again: http://jobs.myspace.com/a/ms-jobs/list/q-X-Ray+Operator |
| 23:49.36 | maquis | ? |
| 23:49.57 | Sargun | maquis, people are using MySpace to recruit X-ray operators |
| 23:50.13 | Sargun | do you know what MySpace is? |
| 23:50.21 | maquis | yes.... vaguely |
| 23:50.51 | Sargun | it's a large collection of crap |
| 23:50.54 | Sargun | made by its users |
| 23:55.02 | maquis | yes... |
| 23:55.42 | Sargun | nevermind |
| 23:56.51 | maquis | honestly, x-ray operators don't really need to know that much |
| 23:57.59 | maquis | they just operate the machinery |
| 23:58.55 | Sargun | maquis, what if they leave the machinery emitting X-Rays? |
| 23:59.05 | Sargun | because they're checking a text message |
| 23:59.22 | maquis | Sargun: yes, there's stupid things they can do... |
| 23:59.30 | maquis | but any job has stupid things that someone can do |
| 23:59.35 | Sargun | what's the worst you can do? |
| 23:59.46 | maquis | and generally they'll be under a lot more restrictions in a job like that |