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| 03:58.21 | Tarrant | Silent sunday? |
| 04:01.07 | romanovic | yep |
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| 04:16.18 | Sargun | Sappy sunday |
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| 16:07.36 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 16:07.37 | ibot | drops a truckload of VAXen on fungus |
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| 16:33.50 | unum | http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/05/california-launches-open-source-digital-textbook-initiative.ars <- go schwarzenegger |
| 16:33.51 | brac | [California open source digital textbook plan faces barriers - Ars Technica] |
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| 16:35.00 | ^Migs^ | http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/City-Starts-Charging-Rent-at-Homeless-Shelters.html |
| 16:35.21 | ^Migs^ | City officials this month began charging rent to working families staying in public homeless shelters. |
| 16:35.22 | ^Migs^ | lol |
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| 17:49.35 | maquis | ^Migs^: makes sense to me |
| 17:50.11 | maquis | if they're working, they should be paying at least some amount... perhaps make it dependent on income |
| 17:50.24 | maquis | although, have to be careful not to encourage them to stop working.... |
| 17:51.20 | maquis | perhaps give a grace period... "you can stay here for 3 months without paying, but after that period, everyone will have to pay $X in rent" |
| 17:52.35 | ^Migs^ | I agree completely. It's about time they learn the value of a dollar. |
| 17:52.42 | ^Migs^ | It's funny how they're all whining. |
| 17:52.48 | ^Migs^ | THIS IS NOT FAIR! I HAVE TO BUY DIAPERS! |
| 17:52.50 | ^Migs^ | OMGNOWAI |
| 17:53.30 | maquis | i'm firmly of the opinion that social services should be a temporary thing to get people back on their feet, unless someone is actually disabled in such a way that they are actually unable to support themselves |
| 17:53.36 | ^Migs^ | Amen to that |
| 17:53.44 | ^Migs^ | freeloading never helps anyone |
| 17:53.50 | ^Migs^ | It just sucks when they bring kids into their financial ruin |
| 17:54.04 | dataw0lf | yea! screw poor people! |
| 17:54.14 | ^Migs^ | now sure, sometimes it's not their fault...they get laid off, have major medical bills that blindsighted them out of nowhere... |
| 17:54.39 | maquis | there's a woman who is always begging for things outside of one of the places here near my workplace... i've seen her enough that i know she's not really doing anything to try to get out of her current state, so i have very little sympathy |
| 17:55.09 | maquis | i can understand that sometimes stuff happens, but i think there's a responsibility to at least show effort to get out of it. |
| 17:55.45 | ^Migs^ | right |
| 17:56.20 | maquis | my dad has counselled with people who were asking for help from the church because they couldn't pay for any of their bills, but nobody in the family was working, and when he pointed out a few places that were hiring, they said "i wouldn't work there... that's below me" |
| 17:56.34 | ^Migs^ | ugh |
| 17:56.44 | ^Migs^ | when I was unemployed, I went a couple times to the LDS Employment Networking meetings, or whatever they were called |
| 17:56.56 | Tarrant | I've seen both sides. Family/Friends who only got through because of socail services. I also know people who know the system and all they do is try their hardest to get stuff from the government. The system has to be there to a degree but something does need to be done. |
| 17:57.00 | ^Migs^ | there was a guy there like that. He'd been unemployed for over a year, simply because he refused to take any job that was "beneath him" |
| 17:57.14 | maquis | Tarrant: but were they in those social services for years |
| 17:57.17 | ^Migs^ | haha, my in-laws are government freeloaders like that, Tarrant |
| 17:57.51 | dataw0lf | my family was in the social services for years |
| 17:57.52 | Tarrant | My parents are actually fostering kids from one of these families. One of the daugters is moving to Orgeon because they 'will provide' for her baby... She refuses to work. |
| 17:57.55 | dataw0lf | As I was growing up |
| 17:58.15 | ^Migs^ | I'm just glad to have a job. Even now, if I had to, I'd gladly take a job working at Wal-Mart or something. |
| 17:58.20 | ^Migs^ | heck, I'd have fun doing that, in fact |
| 17:58.22 | dataw0lf | apparently my MD mother and my Ph.D father are just looking for a handout :( |
| 17:58.51 | Tarrant | dataw0lf: I'm not by any means saying that the services aren't needed. They are there to help and often they do. Some people though make it their life mission to not do work and to take advantage of the systems. |
| 17:59.00 | unum | I liked my job at B&N :) |
| 17:59.08 | ^Migs^ | that'd be a cool job, too |
| 17:59.32 | unum | I have a lot of friends that are seriously disabled(blind) and it's interesting to observe how they do things |
| 17:59.32 | dataw0lf | Tarrant: I grew up on the south side of chicago with a lot of other poor people, I rarely, if ever, saw people whiling away the government's money. |
| 17:59.35 | ^Migs^ | you know what I'd love to do? Going back to some grunt job where I'm just performing some repetitive task. I'd have time to listen to audio books all day again. |
| 17:59.41 | maquis | they have a very important purpose... but it bugs me when people take advantage of them |
| 17:59.45 | ^Migs^ | I used to love doing that. Can't do that anymore with my job now. |
| 17:59.48 | Tarrant | dataw0lf: take a trip to rural nebraska. Its very different |
| 17:59.52 | unum | ^Migs^: I couldn't do that. |
| 18:00.03 | ^Migs^ | is it "beneath you?" |
| 18:00.15 | unum | i liked retail. working with people. of course I worked "upper class" retail |
| 18:00.32 | unum | ^Migs^: I need more interaction with people |
| 18:00.32 | maquis | my opinion is, if i had to, i could work doing whatever it took to feed my family... |
| 18:00.35 | ^Migs^ | I like repetitive task grunt work, esp. when it's on a computer, because I always tend to be the fastest at it |
| 18:00.39 | ^Migs^ | oh, I hate interacting with people. |
| 18:00.46 | ^Migs^ | I never answer my phone |
| 18:01.02 | ^Migs^ | if it's important enough, I'll IM them back. |
| 18:01.07 | dataw0lf | maquis: My parents took the six kids they had and ran a lawn mowing service (we'd jump into a van after school). They still needed help. |
| 18:01.27 | maquis | dataw0lf: sure... but they were trying |
| 18:01.29 | dataw0lf | willing to work and do whatever is fine and dandy, and MOST people in bad situations are willing to do so. |
| 18:01.30 | maquis | they weren't just freeloading |
| 18:01.39 | dataw0lf | but a lot of the times, it isn't enough. |
| 18:01.58 | maquis | i think it's fine to have social services for people who are willing to work and show that they're really putting in effort |
| 18:02.14 | maquis | what bugs me is the people who aren't working and just expect a handout |
| 18:02.21 | dataw0lf | so for the majority of social service cases you're for them. |
| 18:02.29 | maquis | dataw0lf: probably, yes |
| 18:02.49 | maquis | i don't know what majority/minority is... but yes, for cases like that, i'm in favor |
| 18:03.30 | maquis | but i see a lot of cases where people expect government handouts for doing nothing, or because they can't afford the 3-story house with 6 bedrooms, and they don't want to try to move down to something lower cost |
| 18:03.50 | maquis | or because they can't pay the bills because they spent all their money on a yacht |
| 18:04.01 | dataw0lf | ... |
| 18:04.10 | dataw0lf | I never knew any yacht owners in the ghetto. |
| 18:04.21 | dataw0lf | I wish I did! Dang, a ride in a yacht sounds fun. |
| 18:04.26 | maquis | dataw0lf: i'm not necessarily talking about ghetto |
| 18:04.33 | maquis | there's people looking for handouts who aren't in the ghetto |
| 18:04.38 | maquis | 'least round these parts |
| 18:05.08 | maquis | that's part of my problem with some of the ways i've seen social services handled |
| 18:05.23 | dataw0lf | you know a yacht owner on welfare? |
| 18:06.13 | maquis | dataw0lf: not that particular one... but i've seen people getting assistance because they bought too expensive of a house and can't make payments anymore and aren't willing to move to someplace smaller |
| 18:07.46 | maquis | i live in a reasonably affluent area, and one thing i've seen is that most people bought the majority of their items on credit without having any way to deal with the possibility of income level... and some of those people are now asking for help both from the government and from the church |
| 18:08.44 | maquis | that's what bothers me... |
| 18:08.57 | maquis | people who are honestly doing everything they can, i respect |
| 18:09.45 | dataw0lf | ah, well, credit in and of itself is stupid. I don't own any credit cards, never took an education loan, never taken a car or house loan. |
| 18:10.07 | maquis | only loan i've ever taken is a mortgage to get our home... |
| 18:10.20 | JoshH | i think we should tell people on welfare, look, you want some money, that's fine, but go out and pick up trash on the road for a few hours per day, or go serve soup at the shelter or something |
| 18:10.24 | maquis | pay off credit cards every month... just use them for the points :) |
| 18:14.30 | ^Migs^ | I do have a mortgage and a car loan, but that's it |
| 18:14.34 | ^Migs^ | gotten rid of all my credit cards. |
| 18:14.50 | ^Migs^ | honestly, even a car loan is stupid. Mortgage is okay. |
| 18:15.23 | JoshH | you can get a reliable car and make payments, or get an old clunker and pay a lot more for ongoing maintenance, fixing whatever problem is happening in the current week |
| 18:15.29 | maquis | the really scary thing is the people who use services like "Money Tree"... payday loans scare me like crazy |
| 18:15.33 | ^Migs^ | oh dear |
| 18:15.43 | JoshH | i think getting a good car is smart, but definitely with a reasonably low payment, and pay it off ahead of schedule |
| 18:15.45 | ^Migs^ | I don't think those people understand what an awful move that is |
| 18:15.55 | ^Migs^ | mortgages should be paid ahead of schedule, too |
| 18:15.59 | JoshH | right |
| 18:16.01 | ^Migs^ | it's just smart...pay a little extra each month |
| 18:16.06 | maquis | if someone needs a payday loan for one month, that means they're paying more the next month, which means they'll need a larger payday loan the next month... which means.... |
| 18:16.15 | maquis | (in most cases) |
| 18:16.21 | ^Migs^ | and then, even if some tragedy happens and you can't make one month's payment, you'll have backpay built up and you'll beo kay |
| 18:16.52 | ^Migs^ | right, maquis |
| 18:16.57 | maquis | ^Migs^: so far i've found it more important to have some liquid money in a high-interest savings account... |
| 18:17.11 | ^Migs^ | there's no such thing as a high-interest savings account nowadays |
| 18:17.17 | ^Migs^ | online banks are even below 1% |
| 18:17.28 | ^Migs^ | well, at least mine is...Etrade |
| 18:17.34 | maquis | enough to pay multiple months of all regular expenses... or to cover any type of medical problems that might not get very well covered by the insurance |
| 18:17.46 | ^Migs^ | you should have both an emergency fund, AND make extra payments on large loans like a mortgage, imo |
| 18:17.53 | dataw0lf | I have 106k in a high-interest account so far |
| 18:18.00 | maquis | ^Migs^: so far, usaa has been very good to us... i don't know the exact rate, but it's about 10 times what i was getting with wells fargo |
| 18:18.04 | ^Migs^ | a proper emergency fund should have at least 6 months worth of expenses |
| 18:18.19 | maquis | ^Migs^: i agree that both are important |
| 18:18.47 | maquis | but i found that it was best to get the emergency fund up first |
| 18:18.53 | maquis | for my personal needs, at least |
| 18:20.00 | ^Migs^ | that's awesome, dataw0lf |
| 18:20.13 | dataw0lf | yup. Only 26 too |
| 18:20.16 | dataw0lf | Army bonuses++ |
| 18:20.23 | sjansen | ~steal dataw0lf's moniez |
| 18:20.24 | ibot | ACTION grabs dataw0lf's moniez and gives it to sjansen |
| 18:20.38 | ^Migs^ | i can haz moni3z? |
| 18:21.15 | ^Migs^ | well, money isn't the most important thing to me. If it was, I wouldn't be working for a school district. |
| 18:21.26 | ^Migs^ | Just as long as my family's needs are taken care of |
| 18:23.59 | sjansen | Money isn't all that important to most people going into the military either. |
| 18:24.31 | dataw0lf | you'd be surprised at the amount of money soldiers blow, though. |
| 18:24.37 | sjansen | I'd bet that dataw0lf pushed himself extra hard to build his nest egg, 'cause working for the military is generally not an extremely profitable enterprise. |
| 18:24.39 | dataw0lf | or, often, their spouses back home. |
| 18:25.00 | dataw0lf | well, I mean, two and a half years of combat and hazard duty pay, plus no federal taxes whatsoever, you can save up a chunk of change |
| 18:25.04 | dataw0lf | provided you don't spend it. |
| 18:25.07 | dataw0lf | many do though. |
| 18:25.46 | dataw0lf | the military has a pretty significant problem with younger troops not maintaining financial responsibility. |
| 18:33.50 | ^Migs^ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBb4cjjj1gI |
| 18:38.25 | maquis | dataw0lf: i've heard interesting stories about both what soldiers blow and what their spouses blow... |
| 18:38.56 | maquis | dataw0lf: one guy was telling me about how much he spent a month on amazon... |
| 18:39.01 | JoshH | i thought that was meant to be a dirty joke, until i noticed the nick was maquis |
| 18:39.28 | maquis | reads over her comment a few times trying to figure out why JoshH thought it was dirty... |
| 18:39.48 | JoshH | don't even try |
| 18:39.54 | maquis | ok |
| 18:40.00 | dataw0lf | maquis: Yea, I've seen it happen numerous times. I think when you provide a sort of... "responsibility net", like the military does (e.g., provide housing, food, etc) some people miss out on the importance of being financially responsible. |
| 18:40.04 | maquis | i'm glad that my nick helped you figure out that it wasn't intended :) |
| 18:40.41 | JoshH | does the military provide resources so troops can learn how to manage money wisely? there is more to being smart about money than simply not spending it, after all |
| 18:40.52 | maquis | dataw0lf: are the ones with families (spouse + kids) abck home generally more responsible? or are they all pretty equal in terms of that? |
| 18:41.13 | maquis | (just curious...) |
| 18:41.16 | unum | JoshH: it looked like a set up for one |
| 18:41.18 | dataw0lf | maquis: you know, it usually is _more_ of a problem with the troops with families |
| 18:41.26 | dataw0lf | since you see the repercussions pretty quickly |
| 18:41.42 | dataw0lf | JoshH: yea, they have programs. |
| 18:42.00 | dataw0lf | you'll get hit with an Article 15 if you default on a loan |
| 18:42.11 | dataw0lf | then you'll be forced into mandatory financial counseling. |
| 18:42.23 | maquis | dataw0lf: that's a good point... |
| 18:42.36 | JoshH | i know my brother in the navy spent quite a bit on girls. not hookers per se, but just spending enough money to successfully close the deal with girls that he would meet |
| 18:42.39 | maquis | for the single ones, i guess it doesn't really cause too many problems if they go out and waste their money... |
| 18:42.45 | dataw0lf | maquis: pretty easy for a single soldier to bounce back |
| 18:42.47 | dataw0lf | right, exactly. |
| 18:43.14 | maquis | especially since they don't have to pay for food, housing, etc... |
| 18:43.25 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 18:44.06 | maquis | it is nice that the ones who are supporting families back home don't have to pay for housing at both ends, though |
| 18:44.07 | sinuhe | Anyone know of a good, CLI, non-captive, cd-player (similar to cdio on OpenBSD) for Fedora? |
| 18:44.21 | sjansen | My understanding is that the military recently started investigating what it could do to improve financial literacy of soldiers because the housing collapse had unexpectedly become a readiness issue. |
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| 18:44.42 | maquis | sinuhe: non-captive? |
| 18:44.45 | maquis | whatcha mean by that? |
| 18:44.51 | sjansen | It's much harder for soldiers to do their job well when they're worried their family back home is going to lose the home to foreclosure. |
| 18:44.58 | maquis | uses mplayer for most media... |
| 18:45.03 | maquis | sjansen: yeah... that makes sense |
| 18:45.03 | dataw0lf | sjansen: hmmm, that's an interesting point, I hadn't heard of it. |
| 18:45.05 | sinuhe | maquis: without a captive interface. |
| 18:45.12 | maquis | sinuhe: ah... hmmm |
| 18:46.23 | sinuhe | xmcd used to have an excellent command line player. |
| 18:46.55 | dataw0lf | on a completely unrelated note, anyone else play weewar? |
| 18:50.21 | macnewbold | sinuhe: I used to use mpg123 to play mp3 files, but I am not sure if it does straight CD playing. |
| 18:50.35 | macnewbold | xmms has a command line interface, even though it has a gui too. |
| 18:58.05 | maquis | doesn't listen to cds regularly |
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| 19:05.27 | sjansen | Who needs CDs when there's Pandora/ |
| 19:12.05 | maquis | and jamendo |
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| 19:29.14 | sjansen | " If this trend continues, we may soon see homeopathic computer repair. |
| 19:29.14 | sjansen | Perhaps it will consist of adding a virus to a program, deleting the virus, |
| 19:29.14 | sjansen | and then running the program. You may soon be able to take your laptop |
| 19:29.14 | sjansen | to a faith healer, who will lay his hands on the keyboard and pray for the |
| 19:29.14 | sjansen | recovery of the operating system." -- Some Random PDF I Downloaded This Morning |
| 19:30.31 | maquis | huh |
| 19:34.21 | elg | hooray for free airport internet! |
| 19:34.41 | elg | the first place in glorious orlando that hasn't tried to nickel and dime me to death. |
| 19:34.49 | Tarrant | The guy is implying that superstition comes from a lack of understanding. Computers are moving in the direction where they become complicated enough that for most people they become closer to biology then to auto mechanics. |
| 19:35.53 | maquis | i admit that i've considered black candles and goats/chickens while debugging... but that's different... |
| 19:38.33 | fadein | sjansen: what's the URL to that PDF? |
| 19:40.25 | Tarrant | ray for free airport internet! |
| 19:40.25 | Tarrant | 13:34 <+elg> the first place in glorious orlando that hasn't tried to nickel and dime me to death. |
| 19:40.29 | Tarrant | 13:34 < Tarrant> The guy is implying that superstition comes from a lack of understanding. Computers are moving in the direction where they become complicated enough that for most people they become closer to biology then to auto mechanics. |
| 19:40.32 | Tarrant | 13:35 <+maquis> i admit that i've considered black candles and goats/chickens while debugging... but that's different... |
| 19:40.35 | Tarrant | 13:38 < fadein> sja |
| 19:40.40 | Tarrant | grr putty and your copy on highlight |
| 19:40.44 | sjansen | http://iforget.dunno/some.random.pdf |
| 19:40.51 | Tarrant | http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/lamport/pubs/future-of-computing.pdf |
| 19:41.38 | sjansen | Sounds about right. Opened it this morning, but set it aside until I needed something to distract me during a break. |
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| 20:05.11 | levi | The Leslie Lamport papers are really making the rounds lately. |
| 20:09.43 | Sargun | Please shoot me. |
| 20:17.46 | maquis | ~shoot sargun |
| 20:17.47 | ibot | ACTION shoots sargun in the ear with a phase pistol! |
| 20:18.30 | maquis | Sargun: did that help? |
| 20:19.55 | Sargun | Not enough. |
| 20:20.04 | Sargun | One of my coworkers left the company. |
| 20:20.29 | maquis | at his/her choice? |
| 20:20.30 | Sargun | I've been asked to maintain a PHP based reporting system |
| 20:20.36 | Sargun | his hchoice |
| 20:20.46 | maquis | ooh... |
| 20:20.48 | maquis | i don't blame him |
| 20:22.51 | Sargun | He wrote it |
| 20:22.52 | Sargun | in PHP |
| 20:22.54 | Sargun | it was his idea. |
| 20:22.56 | Sargun | Idwajiodwajd |
| 20:25.39 | *** part/#utah Robdor (n=Robdor@97-117-71-135.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:29.33 | sjansen | "I'm sorry, but my doctor say I have a life threatening allergy to PHP. I won't be able maintain the app or help with any server where it is installed." |
| 20:32.19 | dataw0lf | http://gizmodo.com/5248464/how-the-f+35-demon-helmet-looks-inside |
| 20:33.27 | Sargun_screen | sjansen: I like that idea. |
| 20:59.41 | Supaplex | maquis: there was an old freebsd fdisk bug I filed that called for salt and black candles to work. I tried finding the conversation I had about it with one of my buddies, but it appears the channel logs for it are gone now. (and not on the interwebs. *sniff*). My quote at the time was, 'this feature requires summoning to figure out' and he broke out the black candles and salt :) |
| 21:02.46 | maquis | heh |
| 21:02.56 | maquis | that doesn't surprise me |
| 21:04.41 | Supaplex | fungus might even recall me talking about it. |
| 21:05.18 | levi | Man, the X-32A is an ugly plane. |
| 21:05.24 | levi | http://www.jsf.mil/images/f35/f35_introduction_planes.jpg |
| 21:08.13 | levi | It was apparently the competition to the F35, which is definitely the better-looking plane. |
| 21:17.08 | JoshH | it looks better from the top down, levi |
| 21:17.30 | JoshH | but overall i agree the f35 is better |
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| 21:30.25 | levi | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Engine_of_F-35.jpg |
| 21:31.06 | levi | I assume that's the STOVL version engine. |
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| 23:28.09 | maquis | glares at the screen confused |
| 23:28.11 | maquis | stupid voodoo |
| 23:36.39 | Sargun_screen | Voodoo? |
| 23:46.04 | maquis | points back to this morning's conversation regarding healing of computers, etc |
| 23:47.21 | Sargun_screen | ah |
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