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| 02:46.18 | eightyeight | goozbach: why are you debating mandriva? |
| 02:48.52 | eightyeight | why is the 80-character width still the standard for email, code, and the like? why are we holding on to it? |
| 02:49.35 | sinuhe | I thought the width was 73 characters and only within certain content types? |
| 02:52.26 | eightyeight | i think that's the case for email |
| 02:52.50 | eightyeight | i can understand i guess the eye traveling long distances. breaking it up seems to aleviate reading pain |
| 03:20.31 | levi | So, 2 of the 3 shows I've actually been watching are unlikely to get another season, and the third is likely but not final. I guess I won't be watching much TV next year. |
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| 03:22.45 | eightyeight | probably good |
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| 03:40.46 | Tarrant | levi: what shows? |
| 03:41.55 | Tarrant | eightyeight: 73 characters is the standard because some still use a terminal based application like mutt, pine or mail to read their email. More than 73 chars makes it more difficult to read. |
| 04:13.35 | toofer | hey, what shell do most people here use? Ksh, Bash, etc? |
| 04:13.54 | Tarrant | I'm using ksh. I like it quite a bit but have one or two complaints. Might try zsh. |
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| 04:42.01 | toofer | Tarrant: thanks for the feedback. |
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| 08:53.35 | Supaplex | rehashes a debian Lenny image for the openwrt replacement |
| 08:54.16 | Sargun | ? |
| 08:54.52 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.52 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.52 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.52 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.52 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.53 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.55 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:54.59 | Supaplex | my openwrt router will be a debian one here soon. |
| 08:59.08 | Sargun | 82 seconds |
| 08:59.10 | Sargun | RAWR! |
| 08:59.36 | Supaplex | oh come on. you could retype it faster. |
| 09:01.56 | Sargun | ? |
| 09:02.05 | Sargun | Imagine a beowulf cluster of openwrts |
| 09:03.13 | Supaplex | thanks. I think I wasted brain cells on reading your idea. |
| 09:03.18 | Sargun | haha |
| 09:03.19 | Supaplex | hah :P |
| 09:03.30 | Supaplex | good thing I have plenty to spare. |
| 09:03.36 | Sargun | I at one point did mull the idea a beowulf cluster of OLPCs |
| 09:03.48 | Sargun | it turned out to be cheaper if it was actually $80 or so |
| 09:03.49 | Supaplex | heh nice |
| 09:04.11 | Sargun | Like, if I had control over the OLPC organization, I could do it cheaper ^_^ |
| 09:04.55 | Supaplex | indeed. |
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| 15:01.11 | Jayce^ | http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html |
| 15:01.19 | Jayce^ | hilarious |
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| 15:30.05 | tensai | what's the IP address range reserved for example usage? |
| 15:30.11 | tensai | my google-fu is failing me |
| 15:31.45 | sinuhe | 2001:0db8:: |
| 15:31.52 | sinuhe | /32 |
| 15:32.29 | tensai | sinuhe: thanks. should have clarified that I need ipv4 |
| 15:32.34 | tensai | it's 192.0.2.0/24 |
| 15:33.02 | sinuhe | tensai: Does ipv4 have a reserved example address? There's the non-routeable addresses for the different classes... |
| 15:33.26 | sinuhe | 192.168.0.0/24 or 10.0.0.0, etc. |
| 15:35.35 | JoshH | 10/8 172.16/12 192.168/16 |
| 15:36.12 | sinuhe | tensai: What JoshH wrote. |
| 15:37.44 | JoshH | well |
| 15:37.56 | JoshH | 192.0.2.0/24 is an IANA test net |
| 15:38.15 | JoshH | 192.88.99.0/24 is for 6to4 |
| 15:39.37 | JoshH | didn't realize what you meant by "example usage" at first |
| 16:00.28 | Sargun_screen | sinuhe: hey, what are you doing in san francisco? |
| 16:01.05 | tensai | JoshH: see rfc 3330. 192.0.2.0/24 is set aside for documentation and examples, ala example.com |
| 16:03.31 | JoshH | ya, i just thought you were talking about rfc1918 at first for some reason |
| 16:04.39 | Sargun_screen | I'm going to roll out v6 on our backbone soon. |
| 16:12.25 | Tene | http://shorl.com/rarirostonodra |
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| 16:17.46 | sinuhe | Sargun_screen: Teaching a Linux class for Oracle. |
| 16:20.12 | tristanbob_ | "to use dropbox, you must install the proprietary deamon" |
| 16:20.26 | tristanbob_ | doesn't that sound scary? |
| 16:23.36 | tensai | tristanbob_: it worked okay the couple times I tried it |
| 16:24.10 | tristanbob_ | tensai, I like dropbox, but that dialog box sounds ominous, no? |
| 16:24.12 | tensai | it did strike me as a pathetic attempt at open source |
| 16:24.41 | tristanbob_ | I also use crashplan, because it is free, good features, and cross-platform (however, not open source) |
| 16:27.39 | ^Migs^ | whoa, crashplan is nice |
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| 16:39.48 | tensai | just got barfed on |
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| 17:17.49 | sjansen | "I love it when a plan comes together." -- Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith |
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| 18:00.36 | levi | This is hilarious: http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html |
| 18:02.17 | emcnabb | sjansen, this video reminded me of you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ#t=1m46s |
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| 18:31.29 | ^Migs^ | http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/ |
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| 18:38.55 | JentooJesus | Thats some awkward. |
| 18:39.47 | JentooJesus | so simple its clever. better than the pet rock.. |
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| 18:47.33 | ^Migs^ | I like this one: http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/2009/05/05/suffocating-her-with-love/ |
| 18:47.39 | ^Migs^ | also this: http://awkwardfamilyphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/osh-gosh-pawkward.jpg?w=560&h=701 |
| 19:04.49 | tensai | levi: that's great |
| 19:05.02 | tensai | emcnabb: but you made me sick |
| 19:05.09 | Jayce^ | levi: funny, I posted the same link here at 9 :) and now I just get back to see your post :) |
| 19:05.47 | emcnabb | tensai, can't you see sjansen doing something like that? |
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| 19:28.41 | maquis | ~lart emcnabb_afk |
| 19:28.41 | ibot | beats emcnabb_afk over the head with a microkernel |
| 19:28.59 | maquis | walks away whistling softly. |
| 19:31.53 | Sargun | ^Migs^, Man, I wish I came up with that site |
| 19:32.10 | Sargun | ^Migs^, you're like a teenager, on the edge of the internets. |
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| 19:38.20 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 19:38.26 | ^Migs^ | it's what I do |
| 19:41.05 | emcnabb | almost stepped on a huge copperhead a few minutes ago |
| 19:41.12 | maquis | emcnabb: really? |
| 19:41.15 | maquis | how big? |
| 19:41.23 | Supaplex | huge |
| 19:41.23 | emcnabb | it was big (for a copperhead) |
| 19:41.29 | emcnabb | probably 2 1/2 ft |
| 19:41.33 | maquis | wow... nice |
| 19:41.41 | maquis | didja pick'im up? |
| 19:41.57 | emcnabb | my friend and I poked and prodded it with a stick for a few minutes |
| 19:41.59 | maquis | was he sunning himself out on a rock? |
| 19:42.06 | emcnabb | on the walking trail |
| 19:42.37 | maquis | nice |
| 19:45.34 | maquis | likes snakes... |
| 19:48.11 | emcnabb | I do too. had one as a pet growing up |
| 19:48.17 | maquis | what kind? |
| 19:48.40 | maquis | i never had a pet snake officially, but i used to catch them in the vacant lot next door to our house, and read as many books as i could about them |
| 19:48.59 | maquis | my mom freaked out the one time i tried to take a snake inside the house, though... |
| 19:49.32 | JoshH | i had a mexican boa that was always very mean, even though i treated it well |
| 19:50.09 | maquis | for a short period of time, i had a gerbil like that |
| 19:50.26 | maquis | ended up taking it back to the pet shop after it drew blood on my father... |
| 19:51.12 | Supaplex | haha nice |
| 19:51.38 | jsmith | maquis: Gonna buy a Kindle DX? |
| 19:51.43 | maquis | my dad has really heavily callussed hands, so he was the one picking it up since he figured there was no way the gerbil'd be able to bite him |
| 19:51.49 | maquis | jsmith: i've got a kindle1. |
| 19:52.06 | Jayce^ | I see DX, and just keep thinking DealExtreme... which would be fine, but I'd expect it t be cheaper |
| 19:52.07 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 19:52.15 | maquis | i honestly don't have any need for the large form factor of the dx, since i don't feel the need for pdf support |
| 19:52.29 | maquis | but they are nice |
| 19:52.35 | maquis | the 2 is pretty sweet too |
| 19:52.35 | jsmith | Ah... PDF support was the one thing holding me back |
| 19:52.44 | jsmith | (well, that and the cost) |
| 19:52.51 | maquis | jsmith: i recommend it |
| 19:53.09 | JoshH | for me to spend that much, it has to have more uses than simply reading books |
| 19:53.33 | maquis | JoshH: *shrug*... to each their own |
| 19:53.42 | maquis | i prefer a dedicated device for ebooks |
| 19:53.54 | maquis | i can't read for long periods on anything backlit... |
| 19:54.01 | JoshH | it's a cool thing, but too specialized for the price i think |
| 19:54.02 | maquis | spend too much time staring at computer screens anyways... |
| 19:54.11 | JoshH | as for books, i'll always prefer paper |
| 19:54.25 | JoshH | the kindle would be nice for convenience for quick reference reading |
| 19:54.32 | JoshH | but it's already easy enough to use the web for that |
| 19:54.34 | maquis | JoshH: you haven't tried a kindle, have you? |
| 19:54.38 | JoshH | nope |
| 19:55.04 | maquis | so far, everyone i've spoken to who said they would ever preferred paper had never tried a kindle, and the ones who i've then let play on my kindle for an hour generally changed their mind... |
| 19:55.20 | sjansen | I've played with a kindle and I prefer paper. |
| 19:55.26 | maquis | sjansen: really? |
| 19:55.27 | maquis | why? |
| 19:55.32 | sjansen | Too tiny. |
| 19:55.41 | Jayce^ | because it's sjansen, he still prefers ksh after all :) |
| 19:55.42 | maquis | i'm really curious because i haven't heard that much... |
| 19:55.48 | maquis | Jayce^: lol |
| 19:55.51 | JoshH | i wonder about the ergonimics though |
| 19:56.00 | maquis | sjansen: interesting... so, a larger device would be better? |
| 19:56.06 | JoshH | because i can lay in different positions and read a book |
| 19:56.18 | JoshH | but i wouldn't want to have to just hold my hands in front of my face at the perfect angle |
| 19:56.24 | sjansen | Might be okayish for reading paperback fiction, but the screen is too small for technical material. It's also uncomfortable to grip. |
| 19:56.26 | JoshH | but who knows, maybe that's not an issue |
| 19:56.39 | maquis | JoshH: i've never had any problems |
| 19:56.43 | jsmith | sjansen: That's what the DX is for! |
| 19:56.44 | maquis | you don't have to be at any particular angle |
| 19:56.47 | maquis | you can read it from the side |
| 19:56.52 | maquis | sjansen: yes... what jsmith said :) |
| 19:56.58 | maquis | it's specifically for it :) |
| 19:57.09 | JoshH | well, don't get me wrong, i'm sure i would enjoy having one |
| 19:57.22 | JoshH | just wouldn't buy the product at the current price |
| 19:57.27 | maquis | JoshH: i understand that |
| 19:57.39 | sjansen | jsmith: When the DX was announced, we spent a good half hour exploring the announcement and discussing it at GL. My boss even went as far as drawing an approximate of it to get a feel for the new size. |
| 19:57.49 | maquis | i hope the technology drops in price over the next while... |
| 19:58.03 | sjansen | It's a step in the right direction. I classify the DX as "not useless" but still not compelling enough for me to use. |
| 19:58.41 | maquis | :) |
| 19:58.47 | Jayce^ | yeah, price and pdf/alternate sources were my main issues. but I agree, holding one didn't compel me enough... some version could in the future, who knows |
| 19:59.40 | sjansen | The DX price needs to drop to about $200, or the device needs to allow me to write on the screen and save what I write or draw to an electronic format that can be transferred to other devices. |
| 19:59.47 | maquis | i had the advantage of holding it pretty quickly... there's a lot of them around here... :) one of my managers had one, and a couple teammates have them |
| 19:59.52 | sjansen | As a mere document reader, the Kindle is way too expensive. |
| 20:02.19 | maquis | aside from the fact that i can't read on the bus due to feeling sick whenever i'm on the bus, I've used my kindle a ton... i actually discovered that i read way more now than before, too |
| 20:03.24 | maquis | once i can read again, i'm sure my reading will shoot back up again |
| 20:03.35 | maquis | i've got a pile of books lined up to read |
| 20:06.23 | unum | is reading path between the seas by david mccullough |
| 20:06.38 | unum | who will be in town tomorrow btw |
| 20:09.18 | maquis | unum: is that as good as his other books? |
| 20:09.28 | maquis | i've read 1776 and John Adams, and enjoyed both of those |
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| 20:09.43 | maquis | although, i'm a big fan of revolutionary war history, so I haven't really looked into his other books much |
| 20:11.08 | unum | I'm a big fan of teddy |
| 20:11.21 | unum | so I've read his teddy book and am now working on this one |
| 20:11.42 | unum | I'm enjoying it more than I did 1776, but it's very dependent or what subject matter you like |
| 20:12.07 | unum | I only have three left and I've read them all :) |
| 20:12.44 | unum | relates all too well to today's wtf |
| 20:14.13 | unum | in 1776 I think he expected his reader to be more familiar with things than I was |
| 20:14.39 | unum | so it jumped around a lot for me, because I couldn't fill in the blanks |
| 20:18.14 | maquis | the one downside i had to reading 1776 and john adams is that i think i read them too close together... because they cover similar time periods, he had a bit more overlap than i would've preferred |
| 20:18.30 | maquis | but i don't think i can really complain too much about that... :) |
| 20:27.26 | unum | I didn't notice a lot of overlap |
| 20:27.35 | unum | iirc 1776 was about the war |
| 20:27.44 | unum | s/about/mostly about |
| 20:30.56 | unum | shouldn't $list=s/,$//; strip the comma from the end of the line |
| 20:31.18 | unum | and while I'm at it. How do I do a search and replace on a file using a one line perl command |
| 20:35.40 | levi | I've been reading Daniel J. Boorstin's books lately, The Creators and The Discoverers. |
| 20:36.27 | levi | He's also got a couple of early American history books. |
| 20:36.27 | Supaplex | unum: like sed -ri, but with perl? |
| 20:36.41 | unum | Supaplex: ya, I saw it on the mailing list a while back |
| 20:37.02 | maquis | levi: how's that? |
| 20:37.03 | Supaplex | humm I'd have to look at perldoc perlrun first. kinda busy. |
| 20:37.24 | Supaplex | unum: sounds interesting. that's one of those topics I'd be willing to (re)learn. :) |
| 20:37.44 | levi | The Discoverers is really fascinating. I like it better than The Creators, but that was interesting too although it seemed to drag a bit more for me. |
| 20:38.01 | Sargun | Fri May 8 13:37:57 PDT 2009 |
| 20:38.03 | Sargun | YAH |
| 20:38.58 | levi | The Discoverers is kind of a survey of the history of explorers, scientists, and historians. The Creators is a survey fo the history of writers, painters, composers, and religion. |
| 20:40.54 | maquis | levi: ooh... this guy has a lot of interesting books |
| 20:40.57 | levi | I'll probably grab The Seekers as well, which is about the history of religion, philosophy, social science, etc. |
| 20:41.04 | maquis | (and his own page on amazon just for his books) |
| 20:41.23 | levi | Boorstin was until recently the Librarian of Congress, too. |
| 20:41.36 | maquis | most of his books have kindle editions! :) yay! |
| 20:44.48 | maquis | sends some sample chapters to herself |
| 20:45.26 | levi | The chapters from The Discoverers on the history of naval exploration and mapmaking are fascinating. |
| 20:45.51 | unum | perl -pi -e 's/search/replace/g' *.text |
| 20:46.11 | unum | hmm it's a command line perl trick I need to do this from inside a perl script |
| 20:46.35 | unum | I guess I could just execute that, but that seems wrong |
| 20:47.47 | WoodsDog | is a browser part of an OS? I ask this, cause would you judge an OS by the browser that comes with it? |
| 20:48.09 | WoodsDog | judge part of the os by the browser that comes with it... |
| 20:48.34 | Supaplex | I've seen people people judge a computer more by its looks than its capabilities. |
| 20:48.40 | unum | WoodsDog: they have been lawsuits about that question |
| 20:48.46 | WoodsDog | i know, it's not easy |
| 20:49.00 | unum | I tend to agree with those that say it is not part of the operating system |
| 20:49.17 | unum | the operating system should have no use in and of itself |
| 20:49.17 | Supaplex | WoodsDog: a judge, Thomas Penifield Jackson, if I recall. (even if I misspell it) |
| 20:49.44 | WoodsDog | would you say that OS X is better because it has safari and it's better than windows because windows uses IE? |
| 20:49.55 | unum | no |
| 20:50.04 | Supaplex | heck no. |
| 20:50.18 | WoodsDog | OS X might be better, but i don't think i compare browsers |
| 20:50.23 | unum | I don't really consider the web browser part of the os |
| 20:50.24 | WoodsDog | to come to that conclusion |
| 20:50.27 | Supaplex | indeed |
| 20:50.37 | levi | WoodsDog: Why are you asking this question? |
| 20:50.38 | ^Migs^ | what if it's a browser-based OS? |
| 20:50.55 | WoodsDog | stupid lunch time argument i got in with another geeky friend :) |
| 20:51.02 | WoodsDog | i'm trying to see what others think :) |
| 20:51.12 | ^Migs^ | We hardly qualify as "others" |
| 20:51.12 | unum | ^Migs^: I've never understood what that meant |
| 20:51.41 | ^Migs^ | like eyeos.org |
| 20:52.05 | JoshH | star trek was awesome |
| 20:52.07 | unum | so if you were writing a perl script and want to alter a line in a file using that perl script how would you do it |
| 20:52.43 | unum | ^Migs^: it looks like that runs inside of your browser, not the other way around |
| 20:52.55 | JoshH | unum: i think you wanted to use =~ instead of = |
| 20:53.14 | unum | JoshH: ya I figured that part out. at first I tried to use ~= |
| 20:53.44 | levi | WoodsDog: I think you need to talk about what an 'Operating System' is and why you think so, rather than talking about judging them based on web browsers. |
| 20:54.11 | unum | you can borrow my os and corcurrency book if you want |
| 20:54.46 | WoodsDog | levi, I don't know how to define OS. |
| 20:54.52 | WoodsDog | is it what comes on the Install DVD? |
| 20:54.58 | WoodsDog | is it just the kernel? |
| 20:55.08 | WoodsDog | i think it's a hard thing to define |
| 20:56.34 | unum | WoodsDog: some people do define the os as the kernel |
| 20:57.01 | unum | my os book defined it as the kernel and any tools to help the user run and manage end user programs |
| 20:57.08 | unum | or something to the affect |
| 20:57.34 | unum | so basically if it's a program you would use to directly achieve something it's not part of the OS |
| 20:57.39 | Supaplex | I can see both applying. |
| 20:57.44 | levi | WoodsDog: Like many words, it has different definitions depends on context. |
| 20:57.50 | unum | for example you use a word processor to write a paper |
| 20:57.54 | levi | d/depends/depending/ |
| 20:57.58 | unum | you use a game for entertainment |
| 20:57.58 | levi | s/depends/depending/ |
| 20:58.06 | unum | the os gets you to those programs |
| 20:58.07 | levi | Geez, my fingers aren't working today. |
| 20:58.29 | Supaplex | and in the wider view, a simple ftp client could be considered part of the os. |
| 20:58.38 | WoodsDog | then, are the cool graphics that bring up the windows part of os (like compiz?) |
| 20:58.44 | unum | Supaplex: true, which is part of why a web browser could be too |
| 20:58.47 | Supaplex | but that's on the fringe imo. you can eaisly replace that. |
| 20:58.59 | unum | because a lot of documentation is in html |
| 20:59.01 | unum | WoodsDog: yes |
| 20:59.10 | WoodsDog | is the os programs that I expect to have on my computer when i install it? |
| 20:59.36 | WoodsDog | i think levi is right, it depends on the definition |
| 20:59.57 | unum | ya. I'm speaking of the techinal definition they teach to cs students |
| 21:00.12 | unum | the term is used differently depending on context |
| 21:00.17 | Supaplex | well, if you wrote it so poorly, that it crippels operation, perhaps it's not because it should be defined as part of the os... |
| 21:00.20 | unum | we all use it differntly that way |
| 21:00.26 | Supaplex | (when removed) |
| 21:01.03 | unum | I wouldn't say it's programs you expect, but programs you need |
| 21:01.24 | WoodsDog | i kinda expect certain programs to be on my computer, like an ftp client, even if it's command line |
| 21:01.34 | unum | and in todays world it's arguable that you need a web browser in order to install and configure other software |
| 21:01.46 | WoodsDog | unum, that's very true |
| 21:01.57 | WoodsDog | if i don't have ie on windows, how can i install firefox? :) |
| 21:02.10 | unum | I used to ftp just to avoid using ie |
| 21:02.44 | unum | but ya the cli ftp and ie can be considered as bases to get you what you really want |
| 21:03.01 | unum | in which case it doesn't matter how good they are as long as they can go to getfirefox.com |
| 21:04.23 | unum | of course if you are using google apps, or eyeos than the webbrowser on your workstation is largley just a system tool to get you to something useful |
| 21:05.29 | levi | I think that, for just about any definition of 'Operating System', I can think of some configuration of software that will render that definition ambiguous or meaningless. |
| 21:06.28 | levi | There's sort of a fuzzy concept that the term clearly applies to, but arguing about an exact definition is pointless. |
| 21:07.36 | levi | In an argument about a web browser packaged with some other set of software, bringing the term 'operating system' into the discussion is guaranteed to be counterproductive to actually understanding one another. |
| 21:08.06 | levi | Because you'll certainly end up arguing about what an 'operating system' is. |
| 21:08.18 | levi | And that's probably not the point either of you is trying to make. |
| 21:10.06 | WoodsDog | if are arguing over what OS is better, and he says one is better because of the browser included with that OS |
| 21:10.14 | WoodsDog | it makes it hard...just a dumb argument :) |
| 21:10.52 | levi | You're still getting caught up in the 'operating system' term. See if you can re-write his argument without using 'operating system'. |
| 21:11.41 | levi | Discussions are less likely to devolve into arguments if you don't assume the other party is an idiot. |
| 21:12.12 | WoodsDog | his statement was that "OS X is a better OS than windows whatver. One of the reasons is because OS X has safari and it's a better browser than IE" (I didn't use OS) |
| 21:12.13 | levi | (and if you do want an argument, assuming the guy you're talking with is an idiot is a good way to get one) |
| 21:12.22 | WoodsDog | he's not an idiot |
| 21:13.19 | levi | Okay. Now, why do you say his argument was dumb? |
| 21:13.36 | unum | I would have just said that safari can be installed on windows as well |
| 21:13.42 | sjansen | proposes that Congress create a department to prevent the creation of new departments (headed by a czar responsible for preventing the creation of new czars) |
| 21:13.51 | WoodsDog | because i don't agree that a browser is part of an os |
| 21:15.40 | ^Migs^ | for Windows, it is |
| 21:16.18 | levi | WoodsDog: And thus my point. Your friend was using 'os' to mean 'a bunch of software preinstalled or installed together as a base set of software', and you meant something more like the CS definition of the term. When you consider that a great number of people never switch from the pre-installed applications, his argument becomes non-dumb. |
| 21:16.42 | levi | But you would not engage with that argument because you got caught up in a silly definitional detail. |
| 21:16.50 | sjansen | No, it's still dumb. Safari is available for Windows. |
| 21:16.55 | ^Migs^ | Why tf is GaySLC.com following me on Twitter?! |
| 21:17.00 | levi | sjansen: But it is not preinstalled on Windows. |
| 21:17.02 | ^Migs^ | Do they know something I don't? |
| 21:17.24 | levi | ^Migs^: You didn't realize you were gay? I'm sorry, I thought you knew. :P |
| 21:17.43 | sjansen | Judging an OS by the pre-installed software is dumb. If an argument depends on a dumb metric, is by extension also dumb. |
| 21:17.54 | ^Migs^ | How am I going to tell my wife and kids? |
| 21:18.06 | levi | sjansen: You are falling into the exact same trap WoodsDog did. |
| 21:18.22 | ^Migs^ | I feel like I've been robbed of my time to come out of the closet |
| 21:18.56 | sjansen | levi: Your car sucks because it didn't come with a little pine shaped air freshner. |
| 21:19.11 | levi | sjansen: Bad analogy. |
| 21:19.40 | levi | sjansen: Your car sucks because it came with steel wheels instead of shiny alloy wheels. |
| 21:19.41 | sjansen | Exactly. No matter how much you bend over backwards to understand it, a dumb argument is a dumb argument. |
| 21:20.00 | jshipley | levi: Your car sucks because the factory installed fuel injection system regularly fails. |
| 21:20.02 | WoodsDog | i concede that its a dumb argument :) |
| 21:20.14 | levi | sjansen: Um, no, the argument was fine except for the use of the term 'OS' instead of 'default software distribution'. |
| 21:20.50 | jshipley | Although it is entirely possible to change the fuel injector for a better model made by a different company, most people end up using the default injector. |
| 21:21.21 | sjansen | levi: Your banana if purple because you green. |
| 21:21.44 | levi | sjansen: See, you're trying to argue, not discuss. |
| 21:21.56 | levi | sjansen: And sounding rather silly in the process. |
| 21:23.29 | levi | Like it or not, the default set of software that goes on your computer when you buy it new or do a system wipe with a new OS makes a huge difference to a very large population of computer users. |
| 21:24.25 | levi | Failing to understand that your friend was making a point on that level and instead aruging that some piece of software doesn't belong to the label 'operating system' meant that you never really communicated, you just argued. |
| 21:27.07 | maquis | i've made a decision on linux distros based on the default software set |
| 21:27.22 | levi | Anyway, I've made some assumptions about what you and your friend said and meant, so what I've said may not perfectly apply to your actual conversation, but it will undoubtedly be relevant to some future discussion, because this sort of thing happens all the time. |
| 21:27.44 | maquis | the default software set does make a difference even in linux |
| 21:28.01 | maquis | although it makes a much bigger difference for non-techie users than it does for techies |
| 21:28.13 | maquis | particularly when you start looking at the people who don't have the slightest idea how to install something |
| 21:29.12 | levi | Right. And if you start discussing things along those lines, then you have a discussion, and maybe a disagreement. When you get caught up in 'X is not part of the OS!' you have a pointless argument. |
| 21:29.58 | maquis | it's also kind-of hard to distinguish where an OS starts/ends, and even harder to explain that distinction to a non-techie |
| 21:30.01 | maquis | :) |
| 21:30.46 | manithree | maguis: Even for techies it makes a difference: If you want to run Oracle, you use RedHat or SuSE, no matter how much you love Debian or Gentoo |
| 21:31.12 | maquis | manithree: like i said... i have made a decision on what linux distro to use based on included software... |
| 21:42.13 | Heartsbane | mmmmmmmmm... Mountain Dew Throwback |
| 21:46.59 | Heartsbane | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ#t=1m46s |
| 21:48.56 | unum | the size of the managed repository is a major factor in my decision, but not the originally installed software |
| 21:49.18 | unum | well I guess the fact that the originally installed software is somewhat minimal is important to me |
| 21:50.28 | maquis | unum: i agree that the size of the managed repository is more important to me than included software, but i think for the average non-techie, the originally installed software is going to be important |
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| 21:51.03 | unum | maquis: true, I would expect that with a non-techie, but you're a techie |
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| 21:51.17 | unum | most techie's prefer minimal original install |
| 21:51.58 | maquis | yup |
| 21:52.06 | maquis | that's why i don't get along with ubuntu |
| 21:52.07 | maquis | :) |
| 21:52.24 | unum | that's a reason why I'm a debianit |
| 21:52.24 | unum | e |
| 21:52.38 | unum | and recommend ubuntu to non-techies |
| 21:52.43 | maquis | heh... me too :) |
| 21:52.47 | maquis | on both counts |
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| 22:06.24 | Sargun | I LIKE ME HEADPHONES! |
| 22:06.26 | Sargun | er, earphones. |
| 22:11.27 | maquis | Sargun: which headphones do you have? |
| 22:27.38 | jshipley | I really like the default installed software on arch linux :) |
| 22:27.58 | Sargun | maquis, Shure SE115 |
| 22:28.06 | Sargun | maquis, how are you feeling |
| 22:28.42 | Sargun | maquis, whoa, your last non-being a mother mothers day |
| 22:29.26 | jshipley | I like that I don't feel like Ubuntu, or RedHat, or etc., isn't deciding for me which software to use. |
| 22:29.57 | Sargun | likes GENTOO |
| 22:30.03 | Sargun | and CAPITAL letters. |
| 22:30.38 | jshipley | I think I would like gentoo if I could get past the need to compile everything. |
| 22:32.17 | Sargun | jshipley, I can compile you in 2 hours. |
| 22:32.26 | Sargun | I can compile an OS in a few days on this laptop |
| 22:32.42 | Sargun | If I had access to the cluster at work, I could compile an OS in under 10 hours |
| 22:33.15 | jshipley | I tried linux from scratch once, it was a good experience, but not a distro I'd want to use for more than experimentation |
| 22:33.42 | jshipley | s/experience/learning experience/ |
| 22:33.50 | Sargun | LFS lacks some amounts of reason (package manager) |
| 22:34.03 | Sargun | I like optimizing everything to my laptop |
| 22:37.00 | Sargun | And my gentoo is unique. |
| 22:37.13 | Sargun | nobody has the same gentoo, or it's quite unlikely. |
| 22:40.33 | maquis | Sargun: feeling pretty icky today, but yes, i'll be an official mother next mothers day |
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| 22:44.27 | Sargun | maquis, I'm sorry |
| 22:44.48 | Sargun | maquis, Isn't that an odd realization? |
| 22:44.56 | maquis | Sargun: a little bit |
| 22:45.02 | maquis | it's exciting, though |
| 22:49.51 | Sargun | A bit I imagine |
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