| 00:01.19 | sontek | Hey, I might need a cisco consultant that can setup a static tunnel between a juniper ssg20 and either a cisco 2611 or cisco pix 515e if anyone is interested |
| 00:04.35 | Sargun_screen | static tunnel? |
| 00:04.52 | Sargun_screen | What the hell is a static tunnel? |
| 00:04.54 | sontek | Sargun_screen: point to point vpn tunnel |
| 00:04.58 | Sargun_screen | Ah. |
| 00:05.33 | Sargun_screen | I would volunteer, but I'm somewhat unfamiliar with Jewniper equipment |
| 00:05.38 | Sargun_screen | Supaplex is your guy. |
| 00:05.48 | Sargun_screen | sontek: IPSec? |
| 00:06.02 | sontek | Sargun_screen: yeah |
| 00:06.10 | Sargun_screen | I presume your 515E has IPSec licenses? |
| 00:06.15 | sontek | Supaplex: create the tunnel! |
| 00:06.57 | sontek | Sargun_screen: yeah, we just moved our servers to a colo, and we decided to go with juniper instead of cisco for the router at the colo |
| 00:07.05 | sontek | Sargun_screen: we have cisco to cisco tunnels already setup with the pix |
| 00:07.13 | Sargun_screen | Juniper is much better quality IMHO. |
| 00:07.44 | Sargun_screen | sontek: You should have gone wit Vyatta |
| 00:07.46 | Sargun_screen | with |
| 00:07.50 | sontek | but our buddy who said he could setup the tunnel has been working at it for 3 days and hasn't got it going |
| 00:07.55 | sontek | and it has to be done by tomorrow morning =) |
| 00:08.09 | Sargun_screen | I'm guessing since you used 515Es, your volumes are <4Gbit :-P |
| 00:08.50 | Sargun_screen | sontek: Can't quite remember, but do the 515Es do GRE? |
| 00:09.06 | Sargun_screen | or IPIP? |
| 00:09.54 | sontek | Sargun_screen: gre |
| 00:10.16 | Sargun_screen | why don't you just setup a GRE tunnel? |
| 00:11.03 | sontek | Sargun_screen: I only know how to open ports and forward stuff with cisco, thats why we have our buddy doing all of it |
| 00:11.09 | sontek | I wrote code, not much for networking |
| 00:11.09 | Sargun_screen | your buddy |
| 00:11.11 | Sargun_screen | Teehee. |
| 00:11.14 | Sargun_screen | sontek: Ah, cool. |
| 00:11.17 | sontek | but he doesn't seem to be able to get it going |
| 00:11.27 | Sargun_screen | Uh, mind trying to screw with this for a bit? |
| 00:12.11 | Sargun_screen | No in that for PIX thru 6.x, there is no way to explicitly |
| 00:12.11 | Sargun_screen | configure GRE with the PIX as the endpoint. [I don't know about |
| 00:12.11 | Sargun_screen | PIX 7.0; I don't recall seeing GRE mentioned for it.] |
| 00:12.15 | Sargun_screen | It doesn't support GRE |
| 00:13.07 | Sargun_screen | sontek: mind running a show version on your cisco box? |
| 00:13.33 | Sargun_screen | pokes sontek |
| 00:14.00 | sontek | Cisco PIX Firewall Version 6.3(3) |
| 00:14.00 | Sargun_screen | sontek: I'd also join #cisco, and ##networking |
| 00:23.39 | Sargun_screen | sontek: you there ? |
| 00:27.03 | sontek | Sargun_screen: yeah |
| 00:28.44 | Sargun_screen | sontek: Why are you setting up a VPN tunnel btw? |
| 00:30.10 | sontek | Sargun_screen: one of our applications requires direct access to sql to use (its a very old app) |
| 00:30.24 | sontek | Sargun_screen: and making everyone use software clients is annoying |
| 00:30.43 | sontek | so we just do the vpn tunnel, which I know how to get working cisco to cisco |
| 00:30.47 | sontek | just not with juniper |
| 00:31.37 | Sargun_screen | sontek: IMHO, offload the VPN from your main equipment |
| 00:31.47 | Sargun_screen | tie an x86 box (laptops, whatever) to the PIX and the SSG |
| 00:32.14 | sontek | The pix is in our office, the juniper is at our color |
| 00:32.15 | sontek | colo* |
| 00:33.06 | Sargun_screen | Yeah, do they have a free interface? Or is the switch they're tied to tag vlans? |
| 00:35.53 | Sargun_screen | Or do it around the PIX? |
| 00:36.19 | sontek | We have all our other tunnels (cisco -> cisco) on the pix, so it'd be nice to keep it there |
| 00:36.29 | sontek | we just have to get this location talking to it as well |
| 00:38.17 | Sargun_screen | Yeah, we used to run a bunch of tunnels on our ASA5520s, but there is a bug in the OS that causes them to break once in a while... |
| 01:09.40 | *** join/#utah dcarter (n=dcarter@dsl027-165-128.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:10.10 | friocorte | goozbach: what's up? |
| 01:10.23 | Sargun_screen | It's GOOZBACH |
| 01:10.37 | Sargun_screen | sontek: how much are you $/hr? |
| 01:11.12 | friocorte | why can't I get into my remote session? |
| 01:11.34 | friocorte | when was the last time goozbach said anything? |
| 01:11.34 | Sargun_screen | bad luck? |
| 01:11.44 | Sargun_screen | 10:36 <@goozbach> wow, it's dead in here |
| 01:11.52 | friocorte | interesting |
| 01:12.05 | Sargun_screen | ~seen goozbach |
| 01:12.07 | ibot | goozbach is currently on #utos #utah #lugot. Has said a total of 69 messages. Is idling for 1d 7h 35m 9s, last said: 'wow, it's dead in here'. |
| 01:12.14 | Sargun_screen | yeah, you coulda just done that. |
| 01:13.03 | friocorte | suppose I could have |
| 01:13.44 | Sargun_screen | I have to bill you for my usage of /lastlog |
| 01:20.04 | Sargun_screen | HE LEAVES. |
| 01:21.30 | friocorte | there he goes |
| 01:21.32 | friocorte | hmm |
| 01:22.35 | friocorte | perl perl perl! I invoke fozzmoo? |
| 01:23.00 | friocorte | seems like all of KB is offline |
| 01:25.55 | Sargun_screen | KB? |
| 01:26.08 | Sargun_screen | what's kb? |
| 01:28.19 | friocorte | Tier Four is down |
| 01:28.20 | friocorte | eeek |
| 01:28.50 | Sargun_screen | Tier four? |
| 01:28.55 | Sargun_screen | Want to speak english? |
| 01:31.25 | friocorte | goo geek ba bleek bop |
| 01:33.33 | friocorte | There's a big datacenter in Provo/Orem? which is completely offline |
| 01:33.44 | friocorte | I thought it was just my server, it appears to be the entire datacenter |
| 01:35.26 | sontek | friocorte: you are supposed to host at consonus! |
| 01:35.45 | friocorte | sontek: didn't really have a choice in the matter |
| 01:44.59 | Sargun_screen | Hm, I'm packing myself with calories. |
| 01:45.09 | Sargun_screen | Ugh, I hate being sick. |
| 02:26.23 | Sargun_screen | hehehe |
| 02:26.24 | Sargun_screen | http://www.evilhumor.com/pictures/interesting_grave.htm |
| 02:26.25 | brac | [Interesting Grave - Evil Humor] |
| 02:41.17 | *** join/#utah levi (n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:06.28 | *** join/#utah ChrisAR (n=ChrisAR@unaffiliated/chrisar) |
| 05:13.19 | *** join/#utah bonez461 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 05:13.30 | bonez461 | anyone around? Sargun? |
| 05:26.05 | *** join/#utah sp (n=0_1@evergreen.shapeless.org) |
| 05:27.36 | bonez461 | hi sp |
| 05:27.50 | bonez461 | how's your port forwarding knowledge? |
| 05:28.11 | sp | same as it ever was |
| 05:28.54 | bonez461 | well, here' my question |
| 05:29.07 | sp | mediocre, if you need help with something |
| 05:29.25 | bonez461 | I have a linksys wrtp54g. has 2 phone ports. locked from vonage. anyway, I was unable to remotely connect to it, so I reset it to factory defaults. |
| 05:29.49 | sp | mmmk |
| 05:30.32 | Sargun_screen | bonez461: |
| 05:30.37 | Sargun_screen | Sargun_screen is around |
| 05:30.42 | Sargun_screen | Sargun's hard drive died. |
| 05:30.47 | Sargun_screen | Sargun_Screen has RAID1! |
| 05:30.53 | bonez461 | ok.. sorry abou tyour hdd .. rip.. |
| 05:31.32 | bonez461 | anyway, I reset it. and after doing that, now it does connect, allows me to connect remotely, but still doesn't forward the ports to the machine of choice, like I want.. |
| 05:32.20 | bonez461 | I can remotely connect now, but testing shows my ports 22, 25, 80, 110 and 443 are still closed, despite my having opened/forwarded them in the wrtp54g's GUI interface |
| 05:32.24 | sp | RIP HDD |
| 05:33.07 | sp | do you have any firewalls on your computer ? |
| 05:33.11 | bonez461 | so the RAID1 saved you, right ?Sargun? |
| 05:33.17 | Sargun_screen | Not quite. |
| 05:33.20 | sp | what OS is running on it? |
| 05:33.23 | Sargun_screen | I thought you were going to buy a new one? |
| 05:33.29 | bonez461 | I don't have firewalls that I know of.. I am running 8,10 ubuntu desktop. |
| 05:33.41 | Sargun_screen | bonez461: Are they forwarding to an inside host? |
| 05:34.14 | sp | I'd run netstat on the nat'd computer to see if you're receiving an incoming request |
| 05:34.32 | sp | if it's linux, you should be able to run watch with netstat |
| 05:34.45 | sp | `watch -d --interval 1 netstat -an -A inet` |
| 05:35.37 | sp | not sure how familiar you are with netstat, but the -a will show you all active ports (listening and connected) |
| 05:36.07 | sp | so, it can tell you if you have the ports listening that you're expecting to receive traffic on |
| 05:36.33 | sp | and also show you if a connection is successful |
| 05:36.53 | Sargun_screen | or rather, tshark -i any port 22 |
| 05:36.54 | sp | .. and it shows you your network adapter's ip address |
| 05:37.00 | Sargun_screen | and then have me try to connect to it from the outside |
| 05:37.14 | bonez461 | forwarding to my linux box.. |
| 05:38.22 | sp | are incoming connections timing out, or are the actively refused? |
| 05:39.17 | bonez461 | I am not sure which. |
| 05:39.25 | bonez461 | could you ping and see.. fyrenice.com |
| 05:41.00 | bonez461 | ?? |
| 05:41.16 | bonez461 | I see several ports. sp.. on 80. one on 53.. |
| 05:41.23 | bonez461 | nothing on 22, 25, 110.. |
| 05:43.15 | Supaplex | ssg20 is a firewall. I support SRX and J series. Possibly M/T series, but screenos is a very different animal than JUNOS. sorry :) |
| 05:43.25 | Supaplex | Sargun_screen: poke poke =) |
| 05:43.28 | sp | if you're watching you might see some of these ports lighting up |
| 05:43.48 | bonez461 | 80 lights up.. |
| 05:44.10 | sp | port 10000 is open |
| 05:44.12 | sp | heh |
| 05:44.21 | sp | ..and 8080 |
| 05:45.22 | Sargun_screen | Supaplex: you might have been abble to make monies nonetheless |
| 05:46.09 | Supaplex | $$$'s is a good thing :) |
| 05:46.51 | sp | well the only ports I"m seeing from my webserver, are vonage/voip related |
| 05:47.28 | bonez461 | do you run vonage too? |
| 05:48.00 | Supaplex | perhaps he means mere voip |
| 05:48.21 | sp | well nmap calls the service 'vonage' |
| 05:48.51 | sp | Ports: 8080/open/tcp//http//Vonage http config/, 10000/open/tcp//sip// (SIP end point; Status: 200 OK)/Ignored State: filtered (998) |
| 05:49.34 | sp | is your linux box using the ip address the router is fowarding to? |
| 05:50.13 | bonez461 | yes, I have a statically assigned IP address for this machine.. |
| 05:50.22 | bonez461 | and it's same, I have triple checked. that in the router |
| 05:50.35 | Sargun_screen | have you rebooted teh router? |
| 05:50.51 | bonez461 | yes.. and have reset it to, back to factory defaults |
| 05:50.59 | sp | well, looking specifically at port 80, I"m getting a response that it's filtered |
| 05:54.43 | sp | might be a silly question, does your router have a netstat-like feature ? |
| 05:55.08 | bonez461 | I don't know of any net stat feature. it has nat.. should I try it with nat turned off, and then on as well? |
| 05:56.07 | sp | I doubt it would work with nat turned off |
| 05:56.34 | sp | I suspect comcast might prevent you from getting an ip address |
| 05:57.29 | sp | but, if I were on comcast, I'd probably set up a linux box as a router |
| 05:57.46 | bonez461 | getting an IP address? if that is so, then how am I able to remotely connect to my router? |
| 05:58.32 | sp | I mean, without nat, presumably having multiple computers connected |
| 05:58.56 | sp | I could see them having an issue with that type of setup |
| 06:00.01 | sp | well, I hope you don't mind, I ran another nmap scan on ports 1-1024 and they're all filtered |
| 06:00.27 | sp | which to me means a firewall |
| 06:00.29 | bonez461 | all filtered. does that then suggest something from isp, comcast? |
| 06:00.32 | bonez461 | a firewall |
| 06:00.49 | sp | are there any firewall features in the router that might be on by default |
| 06:00.56 | bonez461 | let me see. |
| 06:01.06 | sp | I know some of the new qwest dsl modems have some default filtering enabled |
| 06:02.23 | bonez461 | under advanced routing it has one solitary button labled Firewall and Nat. on or off? |
| 06:02.34 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=clints@fedora/herlo) |
| 06:02.34 | *** mode/#utah [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 06:02.39 | bonez461 | and it has dynamic routing too. |
| 06:02.50 | bonez461 | which is one. I am going to switch it off and see what happens |
| 06:04.01 | bonez461 | do I want those both off or on? |
| 06:04.43 | bonez461 | ideas? |
| 06:04.46 | sp | have you looked at portforward.com ?? |
| 06:05.23 | sp | they have step-by-step directions for a ton of routers |
| 06:05.24 | sp | http://portforward.com/english/routers/port_forwarding/Linksys/WRTP54G/WRTP54Gindex.htm |
| 06:05.37 | bonez461 | ok.. |
| 06:05.40 | bonez461 | I'll check |
| 06:05.44 | sp | maybe there's some obscure setting that needs to be tweaked |
| 06:06.13 | sp | I think, I would look over their directions, they're pretty comprehensive |
| 06:06.33 | sp | and if it all checks out, then I might suspect comcast |
| 06:07.20 | bonez461 | ok.. |
| 06:07.25 | bonez461 | I'll work thought that |
| 06:08.13 | sp | but I didn't get a peep from any of the lower ports |
| 06:13.53 | sp | bonez461, does that linux computer have more than one network interface, such as ethernet AND wifi? |
| 06:14.29 | bonez461 | no, not the linux box.. |
| 06:14.35 | sp | hmmm ok |
| 06:14.37 | bonez461 | the router has wifi integrated it it |
| 06:15.17 | sp | I've had issues before where the default gateway get's overwritten on boxes with two ethernet cards |
| 06:16.49 | bonez461 | only one nic on this box |
| 06:16.58 | sp | traffic would come in ok, but it would get sent back out on the wrong interface and never show a response on the appropriate card |
| 06:17.21 | sp | ok, just a thought |
| 06:17.36 | bonez461 | no worry |
| 08:17.17 | *** join/#utah sp (n=0_1@evergreen.shapeless.org) |
| 12:25.13 | *** join/#utah goozbach (n=goozbach@209.41.92.80) |
| 12:25.13 | *** mode/#utah [+v goozbach] by ChanServ |
| 12:44.18 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (n=jtolley@jtolley.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 13:00.15 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 13:16.42 | *** join/#utah gshipley (n=gshipley@nat/redhat/x-9be0ad425671ffce) |
| 13:26.05 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-35b64314fd1b7a7b) |
| 13:26.05 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 13:58.26 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 13:59.53 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 14:09.33 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=Jayce^@office2.bluehost.com) |
| 14:09.33 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 14:23.03 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=user@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 14:54.32 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (n=jtolley@67.186.240.209) |
| 15:10.35 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (i=timr@2002:63cb:d9b2:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 15:10.37 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:18.07 | *** join/#utah carmony (i=JustinCa@c-67-164-249-224.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:20.43 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 15:24.40 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@208.110.152.42) |
| 15:26.34 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75.148.99.197) |
| 15:32.24 | *** join/#utah toofer1 (n=kjordan@kjordan1.securesites.net) |
| 15:35.01 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (n=jtolley@67.186.240.209) |
| 15:35.45 | *** part/#utah toofer1 (n=kjordan@kjordan1.securesites.net) |
| 15:41.24 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=Jake@67.208.136.68) |
| 15:43.41 | *** join/#utah _cyberkruz (n=Cyberkru@208-47-173-164.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 15:43.51 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 15:47.28 | *** join/#utah _brent_ (n=_brent_@166-70-142-225.ip.xmission.com) |
| 15:50.08 | _brent_ | does anybody know how to assign a null value to a variable in an RPM spec file? |
| 15:50.15 | _brent_ | #define foo {null} |
| 15:50.19 | _brent_ | or something |
| 15:54.21 | _brent_ | i guess that would be %define, not #define |
| 15:55.39 | _brent_ | but how to define a null value still escapes me |
| 16:29.30 | levi | http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12228215 |
| 16:29.31 | levi | Yow. |
| 16:30.59 | JoshH | yikes |
| 16:31.19 | JoshH | what an idiot! |
| 16:31.36 | levi | Someone's a little out-of-touch with reality. |
| 16:32.09 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-72-236.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 16:32.24 | _brent_ | wow, i'm all for values, love, family, etc. |
| 16:32.30 | _brent_ | but that guy's a wacko |
| 16:33.18 | levi | I guess that's why normal, sane people ought to get more involved with politics. |
| 16:33.25 | sjansen | Are we talking about Super Dell again? |
| 16:33.33 | levi | Nope. |
| 16:33.37 | JoshH | this guy makes superdell look like einstein |
| 16:33.41 | levi | sjansen: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12228215 |
| 16:33.47 | levi | No, superdell is definitely crazier. |
| 16:34.05 | JoshH | well, actually, i bet superdell would support that resolution |
| 16:34.38 | JoshH | hard to tell which is crazier though, i just wouldn't want to be around either of them |
| 16:34.38 | _brent_ | sjansen: how's the beard these days? |
| 16:36.38 | sjansen | Not as bushy as it used to be. I try to keep it to a 7 or 8 these days. |
| 16:36.46 | levi | I ran across that link on a Mormon blog, Times and Seasons, which was discussing immigration reform. |
| 16:37.33 | _brent_ | here's my beef with the guy in the article: america is great because of two things |
| 16:37.37 | _brent_ | productivity and confidence |
| 16:37.45 | unum | I've been amazed at what percentage of people active in politics are crazy |
| 16:37.46 | sjansen | and immigrants |
| 16:38.02 | unum | it's definately my highest amount of contact with insane people |
| 16:38.04 | _brent_ | things like freedom, democracy, immigrants, sjansen, etc. all lead to one of those two ends |
| 16:38.20 | levi | It's funny how the right-wingers who rail on the left-wingers who are disappointed with what the brethren say/do about gay marriage are now all huffy and disappointed about what the brethren say/do about immigration reform, and don't see any irony in the situation at all. |
| 16:39.03 | _brent_ | what that rep from springville is promoting defeats both productivity and confidence |
| 16:39.27 | _brent_ | it smacks of protectionism and partisan politics |
| 16:39.56 | _brent_ | under the guise of being religious |
| 16:40.17 | unum | nice. "we shouldn't be shy to say that America is a Christian nation" |
| 16:40.38 | unum | down with the first ammendement |
| 16:41.19 | sjansen | The US _was_ created as a Christian nation. |
| 16:41.23 | unum | I wonder how close the vote was |
| 16:41.28 | levi | One of my mission companions was an illegal immigrant. But he was from Albania, not Mexico, so it was okay. :P |
| 16:41.37 | unum | sjansen: funny they failed to mention christ in the constitution |
| 16:41.45 | _brent_ | The Christian Republic of Agnosticism and Politics |
| 16:41.51 | sjansen | Which was pretty ground breaking consider until that point the established Eurpeon pattern was Catholic nations, Luteran nations, etc. |
| 16:42.34 | _brent_ | the bigger issue in the late 18th century was that the americans refused to let religion be a tool to supress and opress the masses |
| 16:42.46 | unum | many of our primary founders denied christ being the son of god |
| 16:42.50 | sjansen | In other words, the US has always been a religious nation, but a nation where religious diversity is supported. |
| 16:42.52 | _brent_ | they were decidedly christian, but decidedly against letting anyone use that to control them |
| 16:43.35 | levi | sjansen: You're getting facts in the way of a good slogan, man. |
| 16:46.15 | sjansen | If you ask me, both sides are over reacting. The US is not a atheist nation, there's no need to get all allergic about religion in daily life, or pretend it doesn't exist. So long was we're not trying to forcing a specific religion down anyone's throat. |
| 16:46.56 | levi | sjansen: Both sides of what argument are overreacting? |
| 16:47.05 | unum | sjansen: do you think we should be allowed to force the idea of god down people's throat? |
| 16:47.36 | levi | The only overreaction I saw was the right-wing twisting of Obama's comment regarding religious freedom in America into an anti- |
| 16:47.41 | levi | Christian statement. |
| 16:48.17 | levi | Which is what the 'We ARE a Christian nation!' slogan is all about. |
| 16:48.43 | JoshH | i don't see how the fact that many early americans were christian means the US was founded as a christian nation. |
| 16:48.49 | JoshH | i think it was meant to be a secular nation that protected religious freedom |
| 16:49.03 | _brent_ | i think both of the two major parties are looking for a way to distinguish themselves from the other |
| 16:49.04 | sjansen | Right wing paranoia and zealotry is doing more harm than good. Left wing "open mindedness" is awfully limited to the free expression of only beliefs they find acceptable. |
| 16:49.10 | levi | That's true in the sense that the majority of our population is Christian and free to be so, but not in the sense that our government specifically supports the Christian religion above others. |
| 16:49.29 | neybar | sjansen++ |
| 16:49.45 | _brent_ | ditto |
| 16:50.00 | _brent_ | what it really comes down to is that both sides want power |
| 16:50.23 | JoshH | left wingers might criticize certain beliefs when they are freely expressed, but that doesn't mean they disagree with the right to express those beliefs |
| 16:50.29 | _brent_ | the conservatives want to set up a business-like system that gives them that power |
| 16:50.34 | unum | the left wing people are mostly trying to stop people from using government funds to express religious ideas |
| 16:51.00 | _brent_ | the liberals want to use the conservatives as motivation to get the masses behind something else |
| 16:51.18 | unum | there are some extremists that would outlaw religion all together, but we don't have them proposing resolutions at our conventions :) |
| 16:51.35 | unum | it's too bad the article doesn't mention how close the vote was |
| 16:51.40 | unum | was anyone there? |
| 16:51.58 | unum | we didn't have any crazy resolutions this year (whew) |
| 16:53.15 | sjansen | There is no escaping that government sometimes has make make moral decisions, and send messages about morality. Nothing about left wing ideology makes it inherently less religious. Whether it claims to come from secular humanism or divine revelation, some things are inherently moral questions. |
| 16:53.49 | JoshH | when it comes to rape and murder, sure |
| 16:53.58 | levi | sjansen: Are you saying moral == religious? |
| 16:54.04 | neybar | yes |
| 16:54.13 | _brent_ | in politics, the moral question is often framed as the 'common good' |
| 16:54.29 | sjansen | I'm saying that is is unavoidable that religious opinion will inform moral decision making. |
| 16:54.44 | levi | sjansen: Certainly it will, but it's not the only factor involved. |
| 16:54.58 | sjansen | Instead of denying it, we should learn to recognize it so that we can discuss it honestly. |
| 16:55.33 | levi | I mean, we have thousands of years of philisophical tradition to inform decisions as well, and some of it tries very hard to build up ethics without religious input. |
| 16:56.54 | sjansen | Which is a lost cause if you ask me. |
| 16:57.13 | levi | Why do you think so? |
| 16:57.36 | sjansen | You can't reduce certain decisions to basic laws of physics. |
| 16:57.54 | JoshH | like what? |
| 16:58.03 | levi | How much ethical philosophy have you studied? |
| 16:58.11 | JoshH | i can't think of a single case where a law based on religion is the only way to fly |
| 16:58.13 | sjansen | Avoiding a claim to divine revelation doesn't make certain positions less religious. |
| 16:58.24 | JoshH | that makes no sense |
| 16:58.39 | levi | sjansen: I think you're using a different definition for 'religious' than some of us are. |
| 16:58.50 | levi | Could you define what you mean for us? |
| 16:59.20 | sjansen | At the heart of every argument is axioms. Starting from the point of "we hold these truths to be self evident", you're starting down the path to religion. Whether it's a religion that worships gods or man. |
| 16:59.24 | unum | I tend to agree with Joseph Smith on this question. In D&C 134 he said government shouldn't regulate your religious practice as long as it doesn't affect the rights of others. |
| 16:59.29 | *** join/#utah jnbek|wc (n=jnbek@unaffiliated/jnbek) |
| 17:00.04 | unum | sure there will be fine lines where's it difficult to make decisions, but I think you set up a lot of laws based off of that idea |
| 17:00.08 | levi | sjansen: So, 'religion' boils down to following 'self-evident' principles? |
| 17:00.24 | levi | I think I disagree pretty strongly with that definition. |
| 17:00.50 | Jayce^ | levi: we expect you to agree with most anybody elses definitions :) |
| 17:01.02 | JoshH | i'd have to try really hard to convince myself that any religious beliefs are true, but i don't have to try hard to convince myself that murder is a bad thing. it's self evident to me. i don't think that means that i have a religious belief against murder. |
| 17:01.15 | levi | Well, I don't think it's a definition that many people will equate with their concept of religion either. |
| 17:01.28 | sjansen | No, religion boils down to faith. Some people have faith in God and principles he defines. Others have faith in philosophers or political leaders who establish world views. |
| 17:01.45 | JoshH | that's not faith, sjansen |
| 17:01.49 | goozbach | somewhat realvant to the discussion: http://farleftside.com/2009/4-1-09.html |
| 17:01.50 | brac | [The Far Left Side The Off The Grid Web Comic 4-1-09 Take a Spin on the Excess Express!] |
| 17:02.07 | levi | What you say is 'faith' is what I call 'accepting a fact as true', which is not the same thing at all. |
| 17:02.24 | JoshH | agreeing with a philosophy or politician's views is not "having faith in them" |
| 17:02.24 | sjansen | *shrug* |
| 17:02.36 | unum | so if socrates taught the same principles that our country used in setting up government than we could say we are a socratic nation? |
| 17:03.05 | sjansen | I'm comfortable defining Communism and Capitalism as religions. I'm also comfortable with the idea that people may follow several religions at once without realizing they're doing so. |
| 17:03.10 | unum | I agree with many things taugh by socrates and cs lewis but I would never say I have faith in them |
| 17:03.36 | unum | then I would say all of our founding father followed several faiths |
| 17:03.48 | unum | so to say we are a Christian nation is still false |
| 17:04.24 | levi | sjansen: I think that some people follow those philosophies with a devotion that is similar to religion, but I don't think they're religious at all by nature. |
| 17:04.46 | levi | sjansen: I think you're trying to overload the word 'religion' to make a point. |
| 17:04.50 | JoshH | even if the founding documents did explicitly state that this was a christian nation, that doesn't mean it should be one today. pretty much every religion on the planet exists in america now. |
| 17:06.28 | levi | sjansen: I think the point you're trying to make is that no one is a truly rational being, and we all have irrational beliefs. Indeed, I think that people are primarily irrational, and mostly use reasoning to try to support their beleifs that they aquired through some means other than reason. |
| 17:07.21 | JoshH | besides, most people who aren't mormon don't even consider mormons christians, so i think it's funny when radical mormons like that guy pull the christian nation thing |
| 17:07.42 | JoshH | they live in a tiny bubble |
| 17:08.05 | sjansen | If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... |
| 17:08.06 | JoshH | probably served his mission in provo too |
| 17:08.57 | neybar | JoshH: therefor he must immediately be discounted? All missionaries that served in Provo must be radical mormons. |
| 17:08.58 | _brent_ | my whole beef here is that somebody without a clue or an argument to stand on reverted to the religious argument in an attempt to sidestep debate |
| 17:09.00 | levi | sjansen: Is that the point you're trying to make or not? |
| 17:09.23 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@151.155.131.79) |
| 17:09.26 | _brent_ | he tried to make an emotional sale, rather than relying on the merits of his position |
| 17:09.28 | JoshH | neybar: not sure how you came up with that, but that's not what i was saying... |
| 17:10.18 | sjansen | If it sounds like a religion, and causes similar behavior to a religion, it's a religion. Be it Christianity, Islam, Wicca or Secular Humanism. |
| 17:10.37 | goozbach | or Linux fanboyisim |
| 17:10.49 | goozbach | esp those SUSE users |
| 17:10.52 | goozbach | geez |
| 17:11.01 | JoshH | what does secular humanism have in common with religion? |
| 17:11.10 | JoshH | i don't think secular humanists have any god or scriptures |
| 17:11.11 | levi | sjansen: My issue with that is that the term 'religion' becomes meaningless, since absolutely everyone behaves that way. |
| 17:12.14 | _brent_ | i wrote a paper in 1995 that pretty much called organizations like green peace religions |
| 17:12.46 | _brent_ | they certainly have zealots, moral codes, evangelists, etc |
| 17:13.02 | sjansen | I don't think so. I think it is useful to highlight opinions that can not be easily confirmed through experimentation. |
| 17:13.23 | levi | sjansen: opinions, by nature, cannot be confirmed. Otherwise they would be called facts. |
| 17:13.40 | JoshH | that alone doesn't make a religion, brent |
| 17:13.46 | sjansen | Yes, but an awful lot of opinions like to masquerade as facts. |
| 17:14.26 | sjansen | Large portions of psychology and economics, for example, are currently dictated more by religion than science. |
| 17:14.47 | JoshH | how so? |
| 17:15.03 | levi | JoshH: You have to remember his funky definition of 'religion' for that to make sense. |
| 17:15.10 | JoshH | do therapists pray to their god to find the answers for their patients? |
| 17:15.31 | eightyeight | sjansen: are you running f11 beta by chance? |
| 17:15.34 | sjansen | JoshH: It surprises me how small minded you are. ;-) |
| 17:15.47 | _brent_ | JoshH: what then do you define as 'religion'? |
| 17:15.47 | sjansen | eightyeight: On one dev server. |
| 17:15.51 | levi | Rewritten, sjansen says that large portions of psychology and economics, for example, are currently dictated more by unconfirmed speculation than science. |
| 17:15.55 | JoshH | if it doesn't believe in a god and have leaders and books that tell people what the truth is and what to believe, then it's not a religion, imo |
| 17:16.06 | eightyeight | sjansen: so that probably means that you're not playing back music on it, eh? |
| 17:16.15 | sjansen | Religion doesn't have be limited to prayer. It can instead find expression in other rituals. |
| 17:16.41 | JoshH | i don't consider myself small minded, sjansen, i just have a narrower definition of religion than you do, apparently |
| 17:16.49 | _brent_ | JoshH: that's a pretty narrow view. many native american groups never had written language, but they certainly had religion |
| 17:17.07 | sjansen | While Freud established a tradition of exploration, he also established a lot of other traditions that it took psychologies decades to escape. |
| 17:17.11 | thaddeusq | JoshH: You must believe in a god to be a religion?? |
| 17:17.19 | JoshH | sure, they didn't have books, but they had stories and teachings that were passed along |
| 17:17.20 | levi | _brent_: Then substitute 'book' with 'oral history', etc. |
| 17:17.53 | _brent_ | still, how is that any different than green peace? or oprah? |
| 17:17.57 | JoshH | thaddeusq: yes, i think so |
| 17:18.20 | JoshH | of course, there can be more than one god, if you want to be technical |
| 17:18.46 | levi | So, religion boils down to organized and heavily marketed ideas. |
| 17:19.02 | _brent_ | still sounds like oprah to me |
| 17:19.07 | JoshH | ideas that involve a divine being that needs to be worshipped |
| 17:19.21 | JoshH | or at least obeyed |
| 17:19.28 | eightyeight | sjansen: reason i ask, i's i'm attempting to playback music, and after about 5s, it starts to skip, increasing to the point where playback is no longer audible. cerious if you experienced this as well, and if you had a work around |
| 17:19.35 | eightyeight | if not, that's cool. just curious |
| 17:19.36 | JoshH | oprah has worshippers, but they don't consider her divine |
| 17:20.06 | goozbach | JoshH: you haven't met any of the oprah worshipers down here then |
| 17:20.13 | sjansen | Rush Limbaugh, Jim Cramer, Richard Stallman, and Karl Marx have all inspired just as much and more devotion than Jesus and Muhammad, What makes one a religion and another not? |
| 17:20.31 | sjansen | eightyeight: Sorry, no audio. |
| 17:20.47 | JoshH | nobody thinks they will suffer in the afterlife if they don't do exactly as RMS or marx says to do |
| 17:21.11 | _brent_ | so religion requires belief in an afterlife? |
| 17:21.15 | sjansen | And yet there are religions that also don't believe in an afterlife. |
| 17:21.23 | unum | sjansen: which ones |
| 17:21.27 | JoshH | it requires belief in the divine/supernatural/etc |
| 17:21.33 | JoshH | and in most cases, an afterlife |
| 17:22.05 | JoshH | i'm honestly surprise that you guys have such broad, open ended definitions of religion |
| 17:22.16 | unum | JoshH: I find myself agreeing with you |
| 17:22.19 | JoshH | and i wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate |
| 17:22.30 | unum | though it is definetaly hard to draw fine lines |
| 17:22.47 | _brent_ | i think the difference is in the context |
| 17:22.48 | unum | I'm sure many researchers on the subject have many different definitions |
| 17:22.58 | JoshH | i don't consider scientology a religion, oddly enough |
| 17:22.59 | levi | I think 'religion' must have some sort of a spiritual component, which differentiates it from others forms of belief systems. |
| 17:23.22 | JoshH | but i do consider FLDS a religion, as well as a cult |
| 17:23.34 | JoshH | greenpeace is neither |
| 17:23.39 | _brent_ | or both |
| 17:23.49 | sjansen | In retrospect, doesn't it seem that an awful lot of financial decision have been based on supernatural thinking lately? |
| 17:24.22 | levi | sjansen: No, I think they were based on greedy "I'll get mine and get out before it explodes" kind of thinking. |
| 17:25.33 | sjansen | "Home prices always rise." What part of that thought involves exploding markets? |
| 17:26.07 | _brent_ | my definition: religion is merely the formal structure surrounding a set of beliefs shared by a group of individuals |
| 17:26.15 | JoshH | anyway, back to the original topic... i think america should protect all religious beliefs, but keep them out of the government. crazy religious beliefs can't become dangerous as long as they are just beliefs, and aren't acted upon or forced on anyone. |
| 17:26.30 | sjansen | "This single computer program can sufficiently predict the future in order to out perform the market." What part of that involves exploding markets? |
| 17:26.55 | Jayce^ | JoshH: like global warming, gotta keep that religion out of govt :) |
| 17:27.02 | Jayce^ | hate having it forced |
| 17:27.09 | JoshH | i agree Jayce^ |
| 17:27.20 | sjansen | Crazy religious beliefs can and will be acted upon so long as examining and discussing them is verboten. |
| 17:27.32 | JoshH | global warming should be studied, and either proven or debunked |
| 17:27.33 | _brent_ | well said. |
| 17:27.38 | _brent_ | (sjansen) |
| 17:27.58 | _brent_ | which is what offends me about the guy in springville |
| 17:28.16 | _brent_ | he was hoping to ramrod his measure through by making disagreement taboo |
| 17:28.54 | sjansen | If I can't admit that my decision is informed by religion, I'm just going to hide its involvement. |
| 17:30.05 | _brent_ | but stuart, if you question my bill, you're questioning God. you don't want to question God, do you? |
| 17:30.13 | levi | sjansen: If a decision isn't defensible by means other than appeal to religion, then you'll have a hard time convincing anyone who doesn't follow your religion to agree to it. |
| 17:30.14 | JoshH | you should admit that your decision is based on religion, if that's the case. but if religion is your ONLY basis for your opinion, then it shouldn't become public policy |
| 17:30.33 | _brent_ | now we're all saying the same thing |
| 17:30.57 | levi | sjansen: Even if, in fact, it *could* be defensible and others might be otherwise inclined to agree. |
| 17:31.02 | JoshH | it seems like me and levi agree almost all of the time, even though he's mormon and i'm atheist/agnostic |
| 17:31.21 | sjansen | If you aren't willing to recognize that your position is ultimately religious, based opinion instead of reproducible observation, we're never going to be able to come to a compromise. |
| 17:32.22 | levi | sjansen: I think that it would be easier to come to a compromise without the baggage that religion brings to the table. |
| 17:32.25 | sjansen | In other words, religious needs to be less stigmatized and more discussed. |
| 17:33.33 | sjansen | I have no problem with laws based purely on religion, so long as the harm it does to non-observers is acceptable. |
| 17:33.49 | levi | I mean, when you bring religion into the picture, you're dealing not only with whatever measurable effects the decision might have, but also whatever intangible effects the religious beliefs dictate. |
| 17:34.40 | sjansen | For example, I would have no problem outlawing street cleaners in front of synagogues on the sabbath. I would have a problem with mandatory circumcision unless there is a clear medical benefit. |
| 17:34.49 | JoshH | sjansen: most atheists are perfectly fine with christmas, and can't stand the douches like michael newdow. i think seeing christian trees in public is an acceptable level of "harm" |
| 17:35.03 | JoshH | err christmas trees |
| 17:35.31 | JoshH | but things like forcing car dealerships and liquor stores to close on sundays is terrible |
| 17:35.33 | levi | And when it's acceptable for laws to be passed purely due to religious belief, then you can't compromise with the believers because they believe they are absolutely right, and that belief becomes admissible evidence for the case. |
| 17:36.00 | JoshH | that's why freedom of religion and freedom from religion are both equally important |
| 17:36.55 | _brent_ | i think any group of people should be able to vote on pretty much anything they like |
| 17:37.10 | unum | aaaaaaaaaaaaaah |
| 17:37.13 | JoshH | depends what |
| 17:37.16 | sjansen | Returning to the heart of the discussion, instead of opposing the statement "American was founded as Christian nation", co-opt it. |
| 17:37.21 | _brent_ | and if the majority decides to close malt shops and flower boutiques on thursdays, they win |
| 17:37.30 | JoshH | issues that involve people's rights shouldn't be up for a vote |
| 17:37.33 | unum | that's horrible |
| 17:37.43 | JoshH | issues that involve who is going to lead the school board should be |
| 17:37.45 | unum | you should not be able to vote on my freedom of speech |
| 17:38.00 | _brent_ | that's exactly what our country did 200 years ago |
| 17:38.04 | JoshH | mob rule is not a good system |
| 17:38.05 | unum | you should not be able to vote on my freedom to peaceably assemble |
| 17:38.13 | _brent_ | i'm not describing mob rule |
| 17:38.22 | JoshH | majority gets their way on everything = mob rule |
| 17:38.25 | unum | _brent_: and they screwed up one very important thing |
| 17:38.40 | _brent_ | one person can certainly vote for removing freedom of speech |
| 17:38.40 | unum | which was finally fixed by blood shed several decades later |
| 17:39.00 | _brent_ | i'm not prescribing anything here, folks |
| 17:39.08 | _brent_ | just describing democracy |
| 17:39.12 | unum | once you take a way freedom of speech you have destroyed democracy |
| 17:39.21 | _brent_ | of the people, by the people, etc |
| 17:39.25 | _brent_ | means what the people want, they get |
| 17:39.33 | JoshH | that's not the kind of democracy we have in america, thankfully |
| 17:39.43 | unum | JoshH: agreed |
| 17:39.49 | _brent_ | american democracy != mob rule |
| 17:39.55 | sjansen | "Two hundred years ago, in a world of Catholics and Lutherans, Americans chose to come together as Christians. Today, in a world of Christian, Muslims and Atheists, we still choose to come together. Diversity, It's the American way." |
| 17:39.57 | _brent_ | because the majority chose order |
| 17:40.32 | levi | sjansen: Which is pretty much what Obama said in Turkey. |
| 17:40.41 | unum | _brent_: at one time they made that decicion. and made it very difficult to change. |
| 17:40.54 | _brent_ | they coupled democracy with beauracracy |
| 17:41.00 | _brent_ | (not in the bad sense at all) |
| 17:41.06 | unum | they intentionally made it so it would take a > 50% vote to remove freedom of speech |
| 17:41.23 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (i=timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 17:41.23 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:41.39 | unum | they felt the principle was that important to democracy that it shouldn't be a simple majority vote |
| 17:42.47 | JoshH | i wish the people who wanted a theocracy would go start their own theocracy somewhere, and leave america to the people who actually do love freedom |
| 17:43.20 | Jayce^ | I wish people who keep growing the fedgov would go somewhere so I could keep my freedom |
| 17:43.21 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 17:43.25 | sjansen | JoshH: Welcome to Utah. ;-) |
| 17:43.36 | JoshH | utah decided to become a state |
| 17:43.40 | Jayce^ | sjansen :) |
| 17:43.42 | JoshH | and ditched polygamy, etc |
| 17:43.57 | Jayce^ | JoshH: yeah, we saw what happened if you didn't |
| 17:44.17 | JoshH | what? |
| 17:44.52 | Jayce^ | army got sent, conscription, various other happenings |
| 17:45.22 | JoshH | eh, i've read about the johnston's army situation, and i don't think there was ever really much of a threat |
| 17:45.26 | sjansen | Violent mob persecution, threatened military oppression, blatant disregard for civili liberties of Mormons. |
| 17:45.33 | JoshH | they just wanted to know what was going on |
| 17:45.50 | JoshH | if utah didn't want to become a state, and change some behaviors, it wouldn't have been forced to |
| 17:46.00 | JoshH | they wanted the benefits |
| 17:46.11 | Jayce^ | JoshH: funny, my relatives spoke differently |
| 17:46.14 | levi | Heh. I'm pretty sure it would have eventually been forced to. |
| 17:46.21 | levi | Eminent domain and all taht. |
| 17:46.31 | sjansen | Try telling that to a people that after being repeatedly being robbed and murdered was told by a governor that "Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you." |
| 17:46.35 | levi | Er, not eminent domain... what am I thinking of? |
| 17:46.35 | JoshH | possibly, we'll never know for sure |
| 17:46.36 | Jayce^ | get another OK land rush |
| 17:46.58 | levi | Manifest destiny, that's the term. |
| 17:47.02 | JoshH | i think the mormons were considered more human than the indians were though |
| 17:47.11 | Jayce^ | depends on the group you talked to |
| 17:47.14 | sjansen | In Utah, sure. Not in Missouri. |
| 17:47.47 | sjansen | Mormon history in the US is complicated. |
| 17:48.01 | JoshH | we can speculate, but the facts are, utah wanted to become a state, was given some conditions, and chose to accept them |
| 17:48.03 | sjansen | On the one hand, we believe this nation was created by God. |
| 17:48.11 | JoshH | so utah has no right to be a theocracy, as much as many people wish it could |
| 17:48.16 | sjansen | On the other hand, it sure didn't treat us all that well in the early days. |
| 17:49.09 | sjansen | How much early Mormon patriotism was an endorsement of the US, and how much was a victim's defense of its abuser? |
| 17:49.13 | levi | I think the thinking is that, although it didn't treat us all that well, the framework of the Constitution made it possible for the church to get established at all. |
| 17:49.57 | levi | Certainly the freedom of religion aspect ran contrary to how people generally felt about religion. |
| 17:50.34 | sjansen | JoshH: My point is, you're defense that Utah "chose" to become a state is pretty weak. You can be certain they would have preferred total independence but knew it was impossible. |
| 17:50.41 | levi | I.e., that theirs was the only right one and that persecuting (even to the point of exiling or even killing them) people who wouldn't accept that was good and right. |
| 17:50.54 | JoshH | from what i know of the "persecution era", it was largely because of acts like burning down a popular newspaper office, owing people money, and getting a reputation for stealing wives (which i won't claim to know is true or not), and not so much simple intolerance and bigotry |
| 17:52.10 | JoshH | i think they would have been welcome to stay in missouri if not for those things, but nobody knows for sure |
| 17:52.22 | levi | JoshH: I think it's certainly more complex than the watered-down history taught in church is, but also not all brought on themselves. |
| 17:52.55 | sjansen | You're ignoring growing political power. There's strong indication that the biggest concern in some counties of Missouri was being out voted. |
| 17:53.00 | sjansen | How many people were forcible removed from their homes before the burning of the press? |
| 17:53.15 | JoshH | also, the claim that the US would have eventually conquered utah by force could be made about any place where the pioneers might have settled |
| 17:53.43 | sjansen | JoshH: How does that strengthen your claim that Utah got what it wanted? |
| 17:54.40 | sjansen | How does it weaken the conjecture that early Mormon's would have preferred to have their own nation? |
| 17:54.48 | JoshH | i'm not saying it got what it wanted, i'm saying it chose its path, and has to live with it now (because you said it was a place where theocrats were free to build a theocracy) |
| 17:57.44 | sjansen | *shrug* Anger, insult and whining might be emotionally satisfying, but from personal experience I know they aren't very productive. |
| 17:58.35 | sjansen | I could just as well say, I wish people who wanted hedonism would go start their own country (on the moon) and leave Utah to the people how actually love Utah. |
| 17:58.40 | JoshH | heh, i don't think this conversation has devolved into insults and whining yet |
| 17:58.44 | JoshH | and i hope it won't |
| 17:59.26 | sjansen | The fact is that decision in Utah are informed by religion, primarily Mormon religion, but I'd hardly call it a theocracy. |
| 17:59.53 | JoshH | nor would i |
| 17:59.57 | sjansen | And I strongly disagree with the opinion that religion and freedom are incompatible. |
| 18:00.18 | JoshH | they are incompatible in a theocracy |
| 18:01.23 | JoshH | as i said earlier, i think that freedom of and from religion are equally important |
| 18:03.06 | JoshH | when i made that comment about theocrats moving somewhere else, i wasn't talking about all religious people, just those who yearn for a theocracy |
| 18:04.39 | JoshH | my ideal world would consist of hedonists and religious people living in harmony, both being free to do whatever they want |
| 18:09.33 | unum | I wish those that were concerned about gay marriage infringing on their rights would work to push for more seperation of church and state in order to secure those rights, rather than doing the opposite |
| 18:10.49 | JoshH | hmm, this wasn't in the trib article, but from ksl's article: Larson also offered the resolution at the 2007 convention. It was defeated then, as well. |
| 18:14.14 | unum | the trib article mentions that he offered a similiar one |
| 18:14.30 | unum | iirc the one in 2007 was all about illegal immigrant being inspired by the devil |
| 18:14.54 | unum | the funny thing is I know mormon immigrants who credit God with getting both legal and illegal immigrants here |
| 18:15.29 | unum | because being in the US is a blessing, and God is responsible for all blessings |
| 18:15.52 | JoshH | heh, i better not get started on that one |
| 18:15.59 | sjansen | I think it's fair to say the extremist Republicans are opposed to immigration, not Mormons. Although some Mormons have a hard time distinguishing between the two sources of "revelation". |
| 18:16.18 | unum | especially when Glen Beck says it |
| 18:16.29 | unum | trembles in fear of the Beckites |
| 18:16.56 | JoshH | sjansen, i agree |
| 18:19.33 | JoshH | i also concur with unum, regarding the beckites |
| 18:20.27 | unum | most of my family is very conservative |
| 18:20.35 | unum | I grew up listening to Limbaugh with my father |
| 18:20.49 | unum | one of my brothers is a republican delagate |
| 18:21.02 | unum | much of my family works for the defense industry |
| 18:21.04 | Jayce^ | ahh poor unum so maligned by the oppressive people around him, if they could only come to the heightened awareness that he has attained through his mastery of all things |
| 18:21.22 | unum | my younger brother is some what open minded, so it's interesting when we get together |
| 18:21.54 | unum | Jayce^: it's funny because my mom and I mostly agree, we just disagree about which party better represents our views |
| 18:21.57 | Jayce^ | ah yes, only the "open minded" can agree with you :) |
| 18:21.59 | JoshH | much of my family is fairly conservative, but none of them listen to any pundits, and we almost never talk about politics |
| 18:22.17 | unum | my oldest brother listens to the pundits so he often brings up crazy talk |
| 18:22.28 | unum | most of the others simply defend their jobs. |
| 18:22.58 | unum | Jayce^: he doesn't always agree with me. he just looks up original sources when he gets crazy forwards |
| 18:23.05 | unum | which my oldest brother doesn't bother to do |
| 18:24.28 | harleypig | Can anyone tell me how to make ssh-copy-id use a port other than the default? |
| 18:25.11 | JoshH | did you try -p? |
| 18:27.25 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_ (n=tristanr@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 18:30.12 | sjansen | Last I checked, ssh-copy-id was just a shell script. |
| 18:30.44 | goozbach | harleypig: setup a port stanza in .ssh/config |
| 18:32.19 | sjansen | Reading the script, there is no way to pass an alternate port to ssh-copy-id on the command line. Looks like goozbach's approach is the only choice. |
| 18:52.31 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 18:53.54 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 19:15.17 | *** join/#utah toofer1 (n=kjordan@kjordan1.securesites.net) |
| 19:19.07 | *** join/#utah mkruskamp (n=Cyberkru@208-47-173-164.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 19:41.55 | *** join/#utah gerberb (n=gerberb@opensuse/member/Gerberb) |
| 19:52.17 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 20:15.31 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 20:19.51 | *** join/#utah jalance_ (n=jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 20:40.13 | *** join/#utah systematical (n=chatzill@c-67-182-231-82.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:42.40 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-c7ae0b7f1591dd4f) |
| 20:51.13 | *** join/#utah bgerber (n=gerberb@suse103.zenez.com) |
| 21:40.47 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_ (n=tristanr@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 21:46.53 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp35.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:47.02 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 21:47.13 | elg | waaa, what happened to my fonts? |
| 21:47.14 | elg | http://imagebin.ca/view/2GOu-xPZ.html |
| 21:47.15 | brac | [Snapshot 2009-04-27 15-45-04.png] |
| 21:47.34 | elg | that wacky sans-serif funk is going on in most places that seem to use a "default" sans-serif |
| 21:47.40 | elg | dialog boxes, etc. |
| 21:47.47 | elg | but other fonts render just fine |
| 22:02.33 | *** join/#utah cyberkruz-work (n=Cyberkru@208-47-173-164.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:07.42 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_ (n=tristanr@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 22:11.31 | tensai | is curious why evolution started beeping on new mail all of a sudden |
| 22:12.10 | elg | the same gremlin that screwed up my application font |
| 22:12.40 | _brent_ | did you try the 3-finger salute? |
| 22:12.40 | elg | (that's its official name, btw, and I was able to fix it by changing the font (and changing it back, if I felt like it) with TinkerTool) |
| 22:17.01 | *** part/#utah Abog (n=kjordan@kjordan1.securesites.net) |
| 23:03.47 | *** join/#utah Colrol (n=Rolcol@unaffiliated/rolcol) |
| 23:09.47 | *** join/#utah Colrol (n=Rolcol@unaffiliated/rolcol) |