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| 01:50.06 | herlo | Provo Linux User Group presentation being streamed at http://stream.utos.org:8080 right now |
| 01:50.07 | brac | [Utah Open Source Streaming Media Server] |
| 01:50.22 | herlo | can anyone test that for me and see if it's working? |
| 02:02.57 | redbeard2 | herlo: sounds good |
| 02:03.06 | herlo | yay |
| 02:03.33 | redbeard2 | herlo: who's speaking? |
| 02:03.50 | herlo | redbeard2: read the link info :) |
| 02:04.28 | redbeard2 | ah, ryanE? |
| 02:04.34 | herlo | yes |
| 02:06.21 | redbeard2 | herlo: could you do me a favor while you're there? |
| 02:06.33 | herlo | sure, maybe |
| 02:06.33 | redbeard2 | i need you to kick jayce in the shins for me when you get a chance |
| 02:06.44 | herlo | redbeard2: I'll do it! |
| 02:06.51 | redbeard2 | hey thanks man, yer a pal |
| 02:06.56 | herlo | np |
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| 03:02.54 | elg | -chat |
| 03:02.55 | brac | are you trying to get ssh to a crisp with a freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 03:03.00 | elg | -metar klru |
| 03:03.00 | brac | KLRU 090251Z AUTO 24022G31KT 10SM CLR 22/M07 A2980 RMK AO2 |
| 03:03.14 | jessie_ | ? |
| 03:03.24 | elg | ~metar |
| 03:03.30 | elg | -google metar |
| 03:03.31 | brac | Results for metar: 1. METAR Data Access: http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/metar.shtml | 2. ADDS - METARs: http://adds.aviationweather.gov/metars/ | 3. METAR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR |
| 03:05.47 | herlo | is having fun turning the lights on and off in #c4bot |
| 03:05.51 | herlo | from PLUG |
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| 03:48.37 | *** topic/#utah is http://utos.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | Don't forget, PLUG tonight | UTOSC 2009 Dates and Venue - http://tinyurl.com/utosc2009-venue | The times, they are a changin' |
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| 03:51.04 | herlo | k |
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| 04:36.03 | jessie_ | hey all |
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| 08:19.55 | jbowls | Hello |
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| 08:34.20 | Supaplex | ~yawn |
| 08:34.21 | ibot | *YAWN* I get *YAWN* tired just thinking of large boxes of unknown substances being poured into nooks and crannies and eaten by little monsters that like to kill fluffy bunnies and oh god I'm tired.. |
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| 15:41.40 | Tene | rakudo now passing >10k spectests |
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| 15:56.36 | fozzmoo | Tene: That's great! |
| 16:11.10 | eightyeight | sinuhe: ping |
| 16:23.51 | sinuhe | eightyeight: pong |
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| 16:30.10 | eightyeight | sinuhe: i recall a conversation you and i had about the gnu project considering using the linux kernel as the official kernel rather than hurd |
| 16:30.38 | eightyeight | i was curious of a reference or it |
| 16:30.42 | eightyeight | s/or it/for it/ |
| 16:32.13 | sinuhe | eightyeight: There was a point in 2002 where rms asked me if we (GNU) should branch the Linux kernel and maintain their own. The current Linux-libre project from FSF Europe is accomplishing that. We also discussed the status of the Hurd. |
| 16:32.22 | sinuhe | s/their/our/ |
| 16:33.17 | eightyeight | possibilities of it happening? |
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| 16:33.58 | sinuhe | eightyeight: Of the Hurd being replaced with Linux-libre officially? I can't see it happening while rms is still alive. |
| 16:34.52 | levi | How active is Hurd development right now? I haven't heard any buzz at all since mheath was banned from the channel. |
| 16:34.57 | eightyeight | what other options have the hurd devs considered? i mean, the hurd kernel going stable is highly unlikely |
| 16:36.09 | sinuhe | levi: The Hurd is pretty much dead. Debian maintains it officially, but have not updated it in 2-3 years. Right now, a new micro-kernel is being sought out, and research for possibily writing one from scratch. L4 was toyed with for awhile, among a couple of choices, but I think that has been abandoned as an official choice. |
| 16:36.36 | levi | Bummer. |
| 16:36.53 | sinuhe | Remember that the Hurd and the micro-kernel are technically two separate pieces. In rms's mind, the Hurd is stalled, and GNU Mach is dead. |
| 16:36.55 | levi | It seems Microsoft is the only player putting real money into OS research these days. |
| 16:37.36 | sinuhe | levi: Minix? |
| 16:37.41 | levi | ... |
| 16:38.07 | unum | levi: that's because they're playing catch up |
| 16:38.28 | levi | Unix clones are not exactly 'research'. |
| 16:39.02 | eightyeight | plan 9 from bell labs seems interesting |
| 16:39.11 | levi | Bell Labs is dead. |
| 16:39.13 | sinuhe | Plan 9 is no longer being developed. |
| 16:39.33 | eightyeight | yeaoh |
| 16:39.36 | eightyeight | s/oh/h/ |
| 16:39.47 | fozzmoo | I've got a Coraid ATA-over-Ethernet enclosure that runs Plan 9 |
| 16:40.00 | levi | Singularity/Midori is research. |
| 16:40.05 | sinuhe | It got UTF and /proc (if I remember the latter right) |
| 16:40.13 | levi | Though I guess Midori is supposed to be a real product someday. |
| 16:40.36 | sinuhe | coyotos was another microkernel I know some of the Hurd devs have looked at. |
| 16:40.42 | eightyeight | haiku is one os i've been keeping my eye on |
| 16:40.48 | levi | They just hired Jonathan Shapiro, who was working on Bit-C and Coyotos. |
| 16:40.56 | sinuhe | I'm beginning to suspect that has fallen through as well. |
| 16:41.06 | levi | (They being 'Microsoft') |
| 16:41.12 | sinuhe | Is that right? |
| 16:42.09 | eightyeight | anyway, it seems hurd is dead, even if rms disagrees. if they want a full out gnu system, it would make sense to adopt the linux kernel, due to the immense development that is progessing with it |
| 16:42.14 | levi | It is indeed right. He probably won't be able to do anything with Coyotos now, and he's looking for someone to maintain it, or at least keep an archive running. |
| 16:42.28 | sinuhe | eightyeight: See gNewSense reference above. |
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| 16:43.06 | levi | eightyeight: 'Making sense' is not nearly as important to the FSF as making the appropriate statement. |
| 16:43.16 | sinuhe | The amusing thing is that the last time I spoke with rms, when he showed me his (then) new laptop, he was running Debian. (The scripts on the FSF servers show that he still is.) |
| 16:43.34 | sinuhe | levi: I suspect you are right. |
| 16:43.36 | eightyeight | levi: indeed |
| 16:43.58 | eightyeight | sinuhe: why not one of the bsd kernels? or are they stuck on microkernel design? |
| 16:45.00 | levi | eightyeight: Are you kidding? They couldn't use a BSD if it was the hottest thing ever. This is FSF we're talking about. |
| 16:45.17 | eightyeight | ah. yes. forgot the licensing issue |
| 16:45.40 | sinuhe | eightyeight: rms considered BSD at one point. In fact, FSF shipped 4.3BSD for awhile on tape. rms finds his investment in the Hurd to have superceded the idea of using BSD and he's rather enamoured with the microkernel idea, last we talked about it. |
| 16:46.17 | eightyeight | i understand his research at mit was operating systems, so he probably knows what he's talking about |
| 16:46.17 | levi | GNU will never be a complete system while the FSF is more interested in politics than software. |
| 16:46.31 | unum | has any read the tanuabaum debates |
| 16:46.43 | sinuhe | I honestly feel that GNU has been swallowed by the FSF's political focus and has lost direction. |
| 16:46.54 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 16:46.58 | levi | RMS single-handedly kept the MIT Lisp Machines on par with the development Symbolics was doing commercially. |
| 16:47.05 | sinuhe | levi: I wrote that before you did, otherwise, I would have just agreed with you. |
| 16:47.15 | unum | it's interesting how 20 years ago everyone seemed to think microkernel was the way to go yet today no one has accomplished |
| 16:47.21 | eightyeight | sinuhe: anyway, i was just curious if there was a mailing list post or something i could point at for linux being considered as part of gnu |
| 16:47.30 | levi | He was, at one point, quite the hacker. |
| 16:47.39 | sinuhe | levi: He spoke with code then. I think that's why he's lost direction. |
| 16:47.45 | fozzmoo | and 20 years ago, RISC was the way to go for any real computing. :) |
| 16:48.03 | sinuhe | eightyeight: No, not in that sense. |
| 16:48.27 | eightyeight | ok. np |
| 16:48.36 | unum | GNU has always been about politics |
| 16:48.51 | levi | sinuhe: I think the betrayal he felt from the Symbolics guys is what pushed him over the edge into his single-minded obsession with Free Software. |
| 16:48.55 | unum | if you don't think so you've never read any of his statements about it |
| 16:49.31 | sinuhe | head is spinning from our agreement |
| 16:49.51 | unum | after all he issued a document called the gnu manifesto early on |
| 16:50.07 | eightyeight | i must say, that i'm excited to see kfreebsd in debian unstable |
| 16:50.18 | sinuhe | s/head/levi: My head/ |
| 16:50.22 | levi | Sure, it was always about politics, but the politics were backed by lots of code. |
| 16:50.53 | eightyeight | debian seems to be the only distro really focused on becoming a single universal gnu distro |
| 16:50.54 | sinuhe | ITS devs were fanatical about freedom in comparison to the Unix community. Unix devs just shared and didn't think about it. |
| 16:51.00 | unum | i think they still put out a lot of code |
| 16:51.13 | unum | it just seems like less in comparison to what is coming from other sources these days |
| 16:51.31 | levi | If the guys talking the talk aren't willing to put the effort into writing the code, then how are they going to expect the world to follow suit and still function? |
| 16:51.39 | tensai | fozzmoo: I remember hearing that mantra 15 years ago when I started CS |
| 16:51.49 | unum | eightyeight: what's in the kfreebsd kernel that makes you more excited over the linux kernel |
| 16:52.16 | jsmith | tensai: RISC is fun! Anybody can build a RISC processor! |
| 16:52.27 | levi | unum: There's a lot of FSF code, but it's not organized enough to create a real GNU-only system that's usable. |
| 16:52.31 | eightyeight | unum: i prefer the bsd style init (which isn't in the kernel, but still), and i like the trusted bsd system with rbac control |
| 16:52.36 | tensai | jsmith: as I'm fond of saying, just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should* |
| 16:52.46 | unum | aaah buy I know people who have actually USED a risk processor |
| 16:52.49 | unum | I've even sold them |
| 16:52.58 | sinuhe | I very much like OpenBSD, but find the community to be intolerable. |
| 16:53.23 | jsmith | unum: I've used them quite a bit, actually... that's how I learned Unix |
| 16:53.34 | levi | I use RISC processors all the time. |
| 16:53.37 | sinuhe | levi: It's not about lack of organization. It is about mis-focus on politics. |
| 16:53.43 | unum | eightyeight: does the debian system use the bsd init? |
| 16:54.04 | unum | jsmith: so that makes it a little different from a micro kernel doesn't it ;) |
| 16:54.17 | unum | sinuhe: I disagree with the mis-focus |
| 16:54.19 | eightyeight | unum: no. they use sysV, which kinda stinks, and their philosophy of runlevels matches that of bsd |
| 16:54.25 | sinuhe | unum: Oh? |
| 16:54.44 | unum | eightyeight: so then that's no reason to be excited about debian supporting it then is it ;) |
| 16:54.54 | unum | sinuhe: I think the politics are important |
| 16:54.55 | levi | sinuhe: The mis-focus means the organization effort is going into politics instead of software. The software arm of FSF is just kind of spinning its wheels, maintaining the incredibly useful stuff they've got without trying to add new incredibly useful stuff to make a complete GNU system. |
| 16:55.05 | eightyeight | unum: they should at least adopt upstart from canonical, if they want to stay with sysv |
| 16:55.06 | unum | gnu is nothing with out the philosophy behind it |
| 16:55.20 | JoshH | i don't understand the point of debian on different kernels |
| 16:55.51 | levi | unum: The politics are certainly important to the FSF, but the lack of focus on the software *undermines* the politics. |
| 16:56.23 | unum | I think they still are focused on software, but the contributions of others makes their work look smaller |
| 16:56.36 | levi | Imagine the strength that having a complete, modern GNU system that was in common use would add to their cause. |
| 16:56.38 | eightyeight | JoshH: i don't understand deeply the differences between the linux and bsd kernels, but i embrace the 'universal' operating system aspect of debian. if you want bsd, you can use debian with the apt software and gnu toolchain. if you want linux. if you want hurd. etc |
| 16:56.43 | unum | and as others contribute more code it makes sense that the FSF spend more time making sure the politics are taken care of |
| 16:57.29 | unum | being hung up on the micro kernel seems to be their main problem |
| 16:58.06 | unum | but linux is there system in a way. so they have accomplished that |
| 16:58.17 | unum | s/there/their |
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| 16:58.59 | sinuhe | I have been with GNU since 2002 and have heard time and time again of a 0.3 release to follow 1997's 0.2. I am convinced at this point it won't happen. If rms wanted, he could focus the immense amount of developing power towards a complete distro if he wanted. Instead, he adopts projects that commit to free software without focus on completing GNU. |
| 16:59.01 | JoshH | the point of using freebsd (afaik, the only one debian is working with) is that you get a complete unified "base system", with the kernel and tools made by the same people, as well as superior documentation/manpages, etc |
| 16:59.02 | levi | I find FSF's claims on Linux OSes to be severely overstated, though not comlpetely groundless. |
| 16:59.42 | sinuhe | levi: What claim is that? |
| 16:59.43 | JoshH | i would like to be able to apt-get anything in debian on a mac though, macports isn't quite enough to satisfy me |
| 17:00.08 | eightyeight | JoshH: there is work on the netbsd kernel as well, although it's not as far progressed |
| 17:00.30 | unum | linux distros are based off of software that is licensed under the GNU licenes |
| 17:00.52 | JoshH | most people don't think the freebsd kernel is better than the linux kernel to the point that you would want to run debian freebsd instead of debian linux |
| 17:00.53 | unum | Debian largely meets their political goals |
| 17:00.58 | unum | in that sense it is a gnu system |
| 17:01.11 | JoshH | it's strength is in the complete package |
| 17:01.32 | unum | sinuhe: what type of projects are they working on instead of working on the complete system |
| 17:03.47 | Sargun_Screen | hey |
| 17:04.03 | eightyeight | JoshH: i know that the freebsd kernel has better cpu scheduling than the linux kernel. or did |
| 17:04.26 | Sargun_Screen | eightyeight: depends on what you're doing |
| 17:04.31 | JoshH | their new scheduler was just made default for the very first time in the latest release |
| 17:04.32 | sinuhe | unum: There are nearly 400 projects now that make up the official GNU Project. For the last decade there has been a lack of focus on their selection. directory.fsf.org/gnu theoretically has the official list, but my comparison of the maintainers file shows it is way out of date. |
| 17:04.35 | JoshH | iirc |
| 17:05.08 | sinuhe | unum: Debian does not *fully* meet their political goals, hence gNewSense. |
| 17:05.12 | JoshH | anyway, i just see very little, if any, practical use for such a project |
| 17:05.13 | eightyeight | Sargun_Screen: the freebsd kernel had more scheduling priorities than the linux kernel, which prompted quite the thread on the -dev list, iirc |
| 17:06.01 | eightyeight | i would be curious about power consumption between the two on a default idling install |
| 17:06.17 | Sargun_Screen | eightyeight: cfq wins when you have a lot of little apps cmpleting |
| 17:06.22 | Sargun_Screen | competing |
| 17:07.18 | JoshH | debian servers are certainly a lot less painful to keep updated than freebsd |
| 17:07.20 | eightyeight | also, the freebsd kernel has full zfs support |
| 17:07.34 | eightyeight | which the linux kernel will never get, outside of fuse |
| 17:07.57 | tensai | levi: I'd be interested to see what kind of distro could actually be built strictly with a linux kernel and official gnu packages. I bet it wouldn't be much. |
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| 17:11.08 | sinuhe | tensai: I had started such a project. It would be quite huge at this point and would only require a few packages (Xorg, TeX, a route command, etc.) extra. |
| 17:14.01 | sinuhe | I actually proposed it to rms at one point. He said it would not be an effective use of our time, since we already had free distros committed to free software. |
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| 18:42.16 | levi | I want one of these: http://lumenlab.com/store/robloks/microbotics/micro.html |
| 18:44.40 | utahcon | not bad for $550 (with shipping) |
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| 19:26.12 | tensai | elg: I tried playing bvw 565 on the organ the other day. or at least, I tried playing a small subset of it. |
| 19:26.36 | tensai | when playing such fast notes it was quite easy to hear the delay between key press and pipe playing |
| 19:27.11 | elg | fun |
| 19:27.26 | maquis | ack... that would drive me crazy, i think |
| 19:27.29 | tensai | and the console is only 10 feet from the pipes |
| 19:27.49 | tensai | maquis: it would sure take some getting used to |
| 19:28.26 | tensai | elg: oh, I made some recordings for you |
| 19:37.39 | elg | of what? |
| 19:46.50 | tensai | of the organ of course |
| 19:59.04 | levi | I'm very sad that Shapiro is leaving Coyotos and Bit-c. I so want Bit-c to become mainstream. |
| 20:05.24 | levi | It's hard to believe that C is still state of the art for systems programming. |
| 20:08.38 | eggyknap | maquis: you get used to it, but at least for me it takes some work |
| 20:08.59 | eggyknap | realizes how delayed a response that was, and vows to pay more attention to timestamps when lurking. |
| 20:19.52 | RyanE | eggyknap: That question you asked last Friday: Yes. |
| 20:20.06 | RyanE | but be careful, it can take your arm off. |
| 20:23.03 | eggyknap | lol :) |
| 20:24.54 | tensai | eggyknap: you were just showing how adjust to the delay you are |
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| 20:30.46 | maquis | eggyknap: no worries... i had disappeared after saying that :) |
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| 20:37.13 | JoshH | http://blog.peta.org/archives/2009/04/help_battle_sea.php |
| 20:37.15 | brac | [The PETA Files: Help Battle Seal Slaughterers in World of Warcraft] |
| 20:38.56 | eightyeight | wow. i thought april fools day has already passed |
| 20:39.10 | levi | It's always April Fools with PETA. |
| 21:14.22 | UTC4N | so I'm hoping that everyone will fight mah brute http://2ooc4n.mybrute.com/ !!!!! |
| 21:14.25 | UTC4N | otherwise |
| 21:14.30 | UTC4N | I'm going to have to... /quit :( |
| 21:14.41 | UTC4N | although i will still love u all dearly |
| 21:20.06 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-63-134.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 21:20.20 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://utos.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | UTOSC 2009 Dates and Venue - http://tinyurl.com/utosc2009-venue | The times, they are a changin' |
| 21:20.39 | sjansen | I have decided to create the Linux equivalent of the Darwin Award. |
| 21:20.51 | sjansen | I'm going to call it the SCOie. |
| 21:21.25 | sjansen | Before you rush to nominate anyone, though, you should know that the fix is in for this years winner. |
| 21:21.51 | sjansen | I have decided that the SCOie for "worst decision of the year" will go to Fedora. |
| 21:22.17 | jsmith | sjansen: Oh? Why is that? |
| 21:22.32 | jsmith | wonders which bike-shedding discussion on the fedora-devel list takes the cake |
| 21:23.11 | sjansen | I wanted to put F11 on a development server. As is sometimes the case, this server doesn't have a CD/DVD drive. |
| 21:23.44 | sjansen | In the days of yore, that wouldn't have been a problem. I could have just dd'd myself a diskboot.img |
| 21:23.57 | sjansen | But _no_ that's not good enough for Fedora anymore. |
| 21:23.59 | jsmith | Sure... |
| 21:24.01 | jsmith | It's not? |
| 21:24.40 | sjansen | Now I have use use a program reads an iso image and formats a USB disk. |
| 21:25.30 | levi | USB sticks are the new floppies. |
| 21:25.34 | sjansen | And _of course_ only F11 has a version of syslinux (and something else) necessary to create a USB install disk. |
| 21:25.46 | jsmith | sjansen: install.img from http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/mash/rawhide-20090409/development/x86_64/os/images/ won't work? |
| 21:26.11 | jsmith | (of course, that's rawhide, and pretty much guaranteed to be broken right now due to glibc problems... but you get the idea) |
| 21:26.17 | sjansen | Meaning it was actually easier to use a Windows system to create a Fedora install disk than it was to use Fedora. |
| 21:26.37 | sjansen | jsmith: I tried using install.img, it doesn't boot. |
| 21:26.38 | jsmith | Yeah... requiring a new version of syslinux for livecd-iso-to-disk is a bit of a joke |
| 21:26.42 | jsmith | sjansen: :-( |
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| 21:33.49 | Heartsbane | findlay: ping |
| 21:46.42 | sjansen | jsmith: I take it that Anaconda can't install from iso over NFS anymore either? |
| 21:47.34 | jsmith | sjansen: It should be able to... but like I said, I know that installing rawhide directly is currently broken |
| 21:47.38 | jsmith | sjansen: I'd try F11 beta, and then upgrade to rawhide from there |
| 21:47.48 | sjansen | I am trying F11 beta. |
| 21:48.21 | sjansen | And from what I'm seeing, Anaconda is ignoring the iso, only looking for an expanded tree. |
| 22:00.50 | sjansen | weeps openly, ashamed of his inability to install F11 with a DVD drive |
| 22:00.54 | sjansen | s/with/without/ |
| 22:01.19 | Heartsbane | you might as well start top posting |
| 22:03.16 | goozbach | and not trimming |
| 22:08.41 | unum | http://www.conjugalharmony.com |
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