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| 01:04.28 | tarrant | unum: Sorry missed your message. Thanks, and thanks for informing me of the oppurtunity. |
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| 03:11.52 | maquis | wants to go home |
| 03:42.38 | undertakingyou | maquis: I give you permission. You can go home. |
| 03:42.49 | maquis | undertakingyou: i wish it was that easy |
| 03:44.41 | fozzmoo | maquis: Don't worry, maquis, if you don't feel like working anymore, call Mr. Obama and he'll come work for you. |
| 03:45.45 | maquis | fozzmoo: you think he'll bail me out? |
| 03:46.19 | fozzmoo | You did give him tens of thousands in campaign donations, right? |
| 03:47.43 | undertakingyou | maquis: really, just say "Will Smith said I can." |
| 03:47.50 | undertakingyou | I use it all the time. |
| 04:36.34 | levi | Nah, just claim you're 'Going Galt' so the evil collectivists can't benefit from your work. |
| 04:37.48 | undertakingyou | hahaha |
| 04:37.50 | undertakingyou | Nice. |
| 04:47.23 | levi | Geez, freaking Richard Stallman. |
| 04:49.07 | levi | "We need to come up with a solution so ethical people like me can browse the web without fear of accidentally running non-free software!" |
| 04:51.22 | RyanE | I can set his machine up so it'll never access non-free software. Of course, it won't access *any* software, but it'll definitely not access non-free... :) |
| 04:51.39 | RyanE | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:53.43 | levi | Well, he already is set up that way. |
| 04:54.17 | levi | He gets web pages emailed to him through a smtp<->www gateway. |
| 04:55.22 | levi | He just wants his free software minions, who actually still do fairly normal stuff with their computers, to be able to be as righteous as he is. |
| 04:55.39 | undertakingyou | A worthy goal to be sure. |
| 04:55.47 | undertakingyou | Simple solution: Don't browse the web. |
| 04:57.27 | tarrant | I think he has a good idea, he is just really bad at discussing it. There is a (small) movement pushing open web application and open data standards. That way if you decide you don't like gmail you can grab your email and move it to your own server running a similar javascript email client that can still interact with other email users. (Bad example because email is an open standard but think about twitter) |
| 04:57.48 | levi | If you don't like twitter, don't use it. |
| 04:58.32 | levi | It is possible, for non-paranoid people, to give some degree of trust to non-free software. |
| 04:58.59 | tarrant | levi: we faced this issue with chat clients. Some would be on aol some on msn. You can't cross communicate. With jabber an open standard you can move to any client or server and still cross communicate. That is what we need to push for. |
| 04:59.30 | levi | Now, I'm all for people who find good reasons to write free or open source software doing so. But I'm not for a crusade against non-free software. |
| 04:59.34 | tarrant | I'm not saying closed source software is bad. I'm saying closed data formats are. |
| 05:00.03 | levi | I like open data formats, published standards, etc. |
| 05:00.11 | tarrant | and closed standards |
| 05:00.14 | levi | Interoperability is good. |
| 05:00.38 | levi | What do you mean by 'closed' standards? |
| 05:01.05 | tarrant | .docs with openoffice from several years ago |
| 05:02.07 | tarrant | If aim were to allow msn clients to talk with each other but not gmail clients, so on. |
| 05:02.29 | levi | Well, do you consider a published standard created and supported by multiple parties that requires a non-discriminatory license to be 'closed'? |
| 05:02.55 | tarrant | levi: Not sure. Haven't thought about it. |
| 05:03.46 | levi | I mean, I prefer standards that can be implemented without license fees, but I'm not opposed to license fees in general. |
| 05:04.09 | levi | It takes a lot of work and effort to design good standards. |
| 05:05.29 | tarrant | I would have to say I don't hate them, I do prefer standards that are free (beer) |
| 05:07.17 | tarrant | Stallman is an extrmist but he does hit on some points that are valid. Parts of computing are moving to the web. There are restrictions inherent with that and we need to stop and think about it. Are these restricitions good, bad, is there something we can do about it? |
| 05:15.11 | levi | One doesn't need to be an extremist to make points. |
| 05:16.01 | levi | I mean, one should not be abusive to animals, but that doesn't make PETA any less crazy. |
| 05:18.06 | tarrant | true, but sometimes you need the popular extreamist to say something in order for it to get the attention it needs. Say Ron Paul. |
| 05:18.48 | tarrant | I need to get a spellchecker for irssi. |
| 05:18.49 | levi | Funny, there seems to be a sizeable overlap between fans of Stallman and fans of Ron Paul. |
| 05:19.02 | levi | I guess some people are into crazy idealists. |
| 05:19.35 | tarrant | Even though they are both completley different ends of the spectrum. One is a Socalist/Communist, the other a Libertarian/Capatalist. |
| 05:20.01 | tarrant | (However you want to classify them) |
| 05:22.47 | levi | What makes you classify Stallman as a Socialist/Communist? |
| 05:22.50 | tarrant | Thats off the point. How many people had heard of the ideas behind Autonomo.us before Stallman went overboard with his rant? |
| 05:23.51 | tarrant | Sorry wrote that before your question. |
| 05:24.09 | levi | Probably not many. And I don't think many heard of those ideas afterward, either. |
| 05:24.34 | tarrant | I think of stallman as a socialist/communist because he has this idea that freedom of software must be enforced at all costs, becuase its is for the good of the people. |
| 05:24.53 | tarrant | That doesn't describe how I see it. |
| 05:25.06 | levi | I don't really think that's how he views it. |
| 05:25.17 | fozzmoo | What is the name of that association that goes around and does raids on companies to see if they have licenses for all their software? |
| 05:25.28 | levi | BSA? |
| 05:25.36 | fozzmoo | Boy Scouts of America? :) |
| 05:25.45 | tarrant | Business Software alliance |
| 05:25.46 | fozzmoo | Business Software Alliance. |
| 05:25.47 | fozzmoo | yeah. |
| 05:25.58 | fozzmoo | Abolish the IRS. Abolish the BSA. What's the difference? :) |
| 05:26.23 | levi | tarrant: He couches his rhetoric in the same terms of 'fundamental rights' that libertarians do. |
| 05:27.49 | tarrant | Because libertarians maintain that you have the right to do whatever you want with what you produce. Thats very counter to the idea that youc an do whatever you want with what you produce except these very large things. |
| 05:27.51 | fozzmoo | Bruce Perens published an article a couple weeks ago addressing the question of whether open source software was "socialist" or "capitalist." |
| 05:28.11 | fozzmoo | s/socialist/communist/ |
| 05:28.25 | levi | From the political portion of his homepage, he definitely seems to be on the 'liberal' side, but I see no evidence of communism. |
| 05:28.46 | fozzmoo | Perents kind of decided to take neither side and said it's both. |
| 05:28.50 | levi | fozzmoo: Open Source?! How dare you associate that term with Stallman? ;) |
| 05:29.01 | fozzmoo | Stallman can suck it. |
| 05:29.05 | levi | Indeed. |
| 05:29.20 | tarrant | I'll admit communism is a bit of a stretch. I shouldn't have used that word. |
| 05:29.33 | fozzmoo | After that ride in the car with him from SLC to Logan, I don't have much respect left for the guy. |
| 05:29.56 | tarrant | fozzmoo: ? |
| 05:30.09 | fozzmoo | I mean, thank you for GNU/bash/etc. Thank you very much. |
| 05:30.36 | tarrant | why did you drive with him up to logan? |
| 05:30.45 | fozzmoo | I drove Stallman from the airport to USU for a Free Software and Linux (GNU/Linux, you IDIOTS!) Forum he was speaking at. |
| 05:30.55 | RyanE | and what turned you off of him? Did he refuse to ride in your car because it had a non-free ECU? :) |
| 05:31.12 | fozzmoo | Well, the biggest thing that turned me off was his Messiah complex. |
| 05:31.20 | levi | You can hack your car to run an open-source ECU these days, actually. |
| 05:31.45 | levi | MegaSquirt! |
| 05:31.46 | RyanE | levi: I don't doubt it. Probably right through that spying little OBDII port... Paranoia takes over... |
| 05:32.22 | RyanE | That should be part of a movie plot. |
| 05:32.26 | levi | Well, the point is not avoiding The Man, but to improve performance. |
| 05:32.31 | fozzmoo | I had to stop in Wellsville and get some gas. The station was closed so I did the pay at the pump thing with my credit card and subsequently got lectured by Stallman for 10 minutes about how evil I was. |
| 05:32.40 | RyanE | oh, I know that as well. I'm just joking around. |
| 05:32.56 | tarrant | for credit cards? |
| 05:33.01 | RyanE | dang. I need to stop saying 'I know that'. It drives me nuts when my 14-yo says that... :) |
| 05:33.24 | levi | MegaSquirt is pretty cool. Open source hardware and software. |
| 05:33.27 | fozzmoo | He made us listen to his tape of Lithuanian folk music and frequently interrupted the conversation to silence us so we could listen to a particular movement in the music he enjoyed. |
| 05:33.29 | RyanE | fozzmoo: evil for 'pay at the pump'? |
| 05:33.30 | RyanE | wow |
| 05:33.32 | fozzmoo | Yep. |
| 05:33.40 | RyanE | how are you evil for PATP? |
| 05:33.44 | fozzmoo | The man abhors credit cards. |
| 05:33.52 | tarrant | privacy or closed source? |
| 05:34.02 | fozzmoo | because it's basically giving government information about your life. |
| 05:34.40 | tarrant | I take back everything I said about stallman being a communist/socalist. |
| 05:34.42 | RyanE | I dislike store discount cards for that reason, but since I usually pay with a CC anyway, they don't need to use the discount card. |
| 05:34.58 | fozzmoo | So, yeah, after an hour and a half in the car with him, I really struggled to even show up for his talk. I had to because I was videotaping it... |
| 05:35.14 | fozzmoo | but sheeesh. I was so sick of the guy. |
| 05:35.31 | fozzmoo | and his messianic hand gestures. Sheesh. |
| 05:35.58 | fozzmoo | I remember him waving his hand in front of my dashboard and saying something like, "Could you make it... less warm... here?" |
| 05:36.45 | RyanE | "Sure, just let me (waving hand over knobs) turn this knob left... here." |
| 05:37.19 | levi | Stallman seems to be sort of a social anarchist. |
| 05:37.32 | fozzmoo | levi: I think that's a fair assessment. |
| 05:37.55 | fozzmoo | Or he's just a social retard with a God complex. |
| 05:38.41 | RyanE | That's insulting to mentally challenged people. |
| 05:39.21 | fozzmoo | RyanE: Don't go all PC on me! |
| 05:39.44 | RyanE | I'm just echoing what I read on PLUG... people getting insulted over Obama saying he's retarded at bowling. |
| 05:39.47 | levi | Whereas libertarians tend towards anarcho-capitalism. |
| 05:40.24 | fozzmoo | RyanE: I was more offended by his stupid apology to Shriver of the Special Olympics. |
| 05:40.40 | levi | The political spectrum is quite diverse. |
| 05:40.50 | RyanE | yeah, tempest in a teapot. |
| 05:40.58 | fozzmoo | I mean, yeah, it was in poor taste, but don't you think the Special Olympics knows it's going to be the butt of a million jokes? |
| 05:41.05 | levi | I was offended by neither his comment nor his apology. |
| 05:41.10 | RyanE | me either. |
| 05:41.40 | RyanE | just think the whole issue is pretty dumb. |
| 05:41.41 | fozzmoo | I just thought the incredible need to be PC was silly |
| 05:42.46 | tarrant | The right is looking desperatley for things to blast him over. Just like the left looked for anything to blast Bush over. |
| 05:43.22 | fozzmoo | I saw a hilarious photoshop this last week that showed Barack and Michelle in bed together and he was reading a teleprompter telling him what to do. |
| 05:43.44 | levi | I assume you've seen the teleprompter blog. |
| 05:43.54 | fozzmoo | levi: Maybe not. |
| 05:44.12 | levi | It's a blog supposedly written by Obama's teleprompter. |
| 05:44.19 | fozzmoo | Funny. |
| 05:44.28 | fozzmoo | levi: You don't believe it was? :) |
| 05:44.50 | levi | The concept is amusing, but the execution didn't do it for me. |
| 05:45.24 | fozzmoo | A blog by the "Teleprompter Czar" would be funnier. |
| 05:45.30 | levi | Anyway, I need to get to sleep. I think I'm coming down with something. |
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| 07:19.09 | Supaplex | ~stab yesterday |
| 07:19.10 | ibot | ACTION runs at yesterday with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
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| 15:22.38 | elg | -chat |
| 15:22.39 | brac | when all else fails, look for hardware problems. ;) |
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| 15:50.49 | jshipley | excellent advice from brac |
| 15:50.54 | jshipley | -chat |
| 15:50.55 | brac | that tragedy is a lot of people in important government positions. It's somewhat more reality-based than the Austrian school, but I can use postscript for node shapes, but that's not bad enough |
| 15:51.56 | jshipley | unfortunately, his good advice is far from consistent, and often doesn't make sense :) |
| 15:54.25 | jsmith | -chat the best |
| 15:54.26 | brac | the best choice after linux |
| 15:55.47 | goozbach | -chat goozbach is |
| 15:55.47 | brac | goozbach is a lost cause |
| 15:55.56 | goozbach | guess so |
| 15:55.57 | jsmith | goozbach: Ouch! |
| 15:56.08 | goozbach | -chat jsmith is |
| 15:56.09 | brac | jsmith is purple. |
| 15:56.23 | jsmith | -chat brac is |
| 15:56.23 | brac | brac is more carby. |
| 15:56.29 | goozbach | jsmith, BREATHE!!!! |
| 15:56.37 | fozzmoo | wonders why anyone would buy a Sony e-book reader. |
| 15:56.51 | goozbach | why would anyone buy an ebook period |
| 15:56.52 | jsmith | fozzmoo: Brand, brand, and oh... the brand. |
| 15:57.03 | goozbach | paper books are Oh so much nicer |
| 15:57.14 | fozzmoo | jsmith: But the prices for ebooks for it are so much more expensive than for the Kindle. |
| 15:58.26 | fozzmoo | I was looking on Sony's site and looked to see if they had this book I'm reading right now. |
| 15:58.39 | fozzmoo | They did. List price $35.00. Sony ebook price: $35.00. |
| 15:59.03 | fozzmoo | Kindle edition: $23 |
| 15:59.14 | fozzmoo | Wait. No. $19.25 |
| 16:01.18 | fozzmoo | Hmmm. Sony's reader doesn't make you jump through hoops to read PDFs |
| 16:01.20 | fozzmoo | That's a plus. |
| 16:01.46 | fozzmoo | I've been told with the Kindle, you have to like e-mail a PDF to Amazon and they'll convert it for you. |
| 16:02.36 | fozzmoo | The Kindle has cell connectivity, so there's that. Instant updates, news, weather, RSS feeds, etc. |
| 16:03.08 | fozzmoo | But that whole vendor lock in thing is frustrating. |
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| 16:26.39 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/#utah | Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye, Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. |
| 16:27.13 | manithree | I liked the less politically correct topic better |
| 16:31.57 | sjansen | *shrug* It was time for a change. |
| 16:33.01 | sjansen | If it makes you feel better, I'm sure the idea of baking blackbirds in pies offends someone. |
| 16:34.55 | fozzmoo | SR71s in a pie? |
| 16:36.17 | unum | that's unpatriotic |
| 16:36.41 | unum | makes a reference to "the sound of freedom" |
| 16:37.02 | unum | does anyone else remember when the one fell out of the sky over salt lake? |
| 16:38.02 | manithree | sjansen: good point. then again, ANYTHING will offend someone |
| 16:38.19 | sjansen | manithree: Your attitude offends me. |
| 16:38.50 | manithree | sjansen: And not being offended is a constitutional right, isn't it? |
| 16:39.38 | unum | grrr I can find plenty of people having the same problem, but nobody ever seems to figure out what their problem is |
| 16:40.21 | manithree | Here's something REALLY offensive (especially for all you java haters): Groovy is, well, really groovy |
| 16:40.39 | manithree | Slow, docs still suck, but very useful and improving |
| 16:42.33 | sjansen | levi: http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/03/24/international-lisp-conference-day-two |
| 16:42.50 | sjansen | "The "debate" had an interlude, in which Costanza asked Sussman why MIT had switched away from Scheme for their introductory programming course, 6.001." |
| 16:46.58 | harleypig | What's the opposite of Christopher Reeves? |
| 16:47.05 | harleypig | Christopher Walken |
| 16:47.10 | Jayce^ | ouch |
| 16:47.45 | harleypig | What's yellow and lives off of dead beetles? |
| 16:47.48 | harleypig | Yoko Ono |
| 16:48.00 | harleypig | thank you thank you |
| 16:48.02 | harleypig | you're welcome |
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| 16:54.23 | elg | the electric company is fun to watch |
| 16:54.28 | elg | but boy is the theme song sucky |
| 16:55.54 | manithree | I was disappointed it wasn't much like the old electric company |
| 16:57.55 | harleypig | http://www.fmylife.com/sex/552222 :D bwahahaha |
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| 17:17.49 | elg | there's a new one? |
| 17:17.57 | elg | I'm talking about the old one (we got a DVD from the library) |
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| 17:52.15 | whiteinge | fozzmoo: reading PDFs on the Sony Reader is no picnic |
| 17:52.57 | whiteinge | It's unbelievable slow. And that's *if* the PDF is sized just right so the text is of a legible size. |
| 17:55.59 | whiteinge | I've had to rasterize 99% of all PDFs I've ever put on mine. |
| 17:56.29 | whiteinge | (I've had a Reader for about three years.) |
| 17:57.40 | whiteinge | There's just as much vendor-lock for the Reader as the Kindle, imo. The only difference is the OSS community has been working on the Reader for much longer. |
| 17:58.30 | whiteinge | I'd love wireless access to Wikipedia, but I'm not replacing my Reader until something decent that's non-Sony, non-Amazon comes out. |
| 17:58.36 | tarrant | Take a look at the cybook it if I remember correctly has much less in the way of vendor lock-in. |
| 17:58.39 | harleypig | In perl, is there a way to make $/ *not* include $/ in the grabbed record? |
| 17:58.49 | tarrant | Cybook does not have wifi. |
| 17:59.36 | tarrant | There is alos the iliad which does have wifi, bigger screen but is more expensive. |
| 18:00.09 | harleypig | hmmmm ... chomp appears to use whatever is in $/ ... |
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| 18:13.34 | elg | needs to spruce up his portfolio |
| 18:14.01 | elg | i.e. slap some free design on it |
| 18:14.24 | elg | help me decide: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/3485 http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/3027 http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2770 |
| 18:14.24 | brac | [Open Source Web Design - Preview - HiFi News] |
| 18:35.14 | sjansen | Oh, wow, the SqueezeBox Boom is even more amazing than I thought. |
| 18:37.33 | elg | how can that be? |
| 18:39.11 | sjansen | elg: If you're asking me, it's rocking Internet Radio support was a surprise. |
| 18:39.50 | sjansen | It automatically detected I was in Bountiful and gave me a list of local radio stations. Never again will I have to problems picking up KUER in my apartment. |
| 18:40.10 | sjansen | And it was uber-simple to find radio stations in Campinas, Brazil. |
| 18:40.21 | elg | nice |
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| 18:40.35 | elg | how's the sound? |
| 18:40.49 | sjansen | (Which, by the way, I'm pretty sure was the first time I was ever happy to hear commercials on the radio. Of course, they were in Portuguese.) |
| 18:42.04 | sjansen | Impressive. It's got oomph for such a small box. By itself, the bass it good, but it also has a line out for sub-woofer. |
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| 19:16.21 | Jayce^ | wtf? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr4QBZfjtqs |
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| 19:35.45 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: That's weird. |
| 19:36.05 | Jayce^ | oh yeah |
| 19:36.05 | fozzmoo | Cute, fuzzy, adorable terrorists. |
| 19:36.36 | JoshH | that osama is just so huggable |
| 19:39.07 | sjansen | ~echelon |
| 19:39.08 | ibot | echelon can be found at http://www.gn.apc.org/duncan/echelon-dc.htm or at http://www.iptvreports.mcmail.com/ic2kreport.htm. FLDS |
| 19:39.15 | sjansen | ~echelon fodder |
| 19:39.15 | ibot | echelon fodder is, like, Bush, Uranium, Dirty Bomb, Jihad, Allah Akbar, TNT, Rent a van, assassination , NSA, wiretaps, sleeper cell, suicide bomb, vest, Oklahoma City, Waco, revenge, anthrax, virgins, fuse, great celebration, July 4th, detcord, martyr, timer, backpack, subway. Ruby Ridge |
| 20:08.08 | brasto | obvious question here, and way off LUG topic... When filing for taxes, how do they define a blind person? |
| 20:08.17 | brasto | My wife is blind on the right half of both eyes. |
| 20:10.05 | Jayce^ | is she legally blind when registering for a license, or in any other govt. dept? |
| 20:11.23 | brasto | She can't drive anymore |
| 20:11.33 | brasto | I imagine maybe she is, but I'm not sure... |
| 20:12.46 | brasto | but she can't drive anymore for other reasons too - she has a brain tumor, which caused the blindness, decreased reaction time, and much more. |
| 20:17.17 | fozzmoo | Hatch is, right now, crusading for this stupid volunteerism bill. |
| 20:20.05 | unum | the one where you get college tuition if you volunteer your time to some good cause? |
| 20:20.21 | brasto | Hatch... Orrin? |
| 20:20.21 | fozzmoo | The mandatory volunteerism crap. |
| 20:20.58 | fozzmoo | Oh, and if you volunteer, you can't demonstrate or exercise your 1st ammendment rights. You forfeit your free speech rights. |
| 20:21.12 | fozzmoo | This bill is full of really BadStuff(tm) |
| 20:21.33 | fozzmoo | Mandatory volunteerism. I love the sound of that. Don't you? |
| 20:21.44 | fozzmoo | brasto: Yes. The one and only. |
| 20:23.27 | goozbach | Jayce^: http://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2009/03/22/ |
| 20:23.56 | Jayce^ | unum: the one that seeks for mandatory 'voulenteerism' |
| 20:26.10 | Jayce^ | brasto: if it's recognized by any entity like that, I *think* you can mark it... but I'd check with a tax accountant to make sure |
| 20:26.21 | Jayce^ | ianal etc |
| 20:27.19 | brasto | sounds good Jayce^, thanks |
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| 20:37.01 | unum | why is that only right wing blogs seem to be talking about there being a draft clause in this bill |
| 20:37.06 | unum | and why don't they quote it |
| 20:40.16 | sjansen | fozzmoo: "Mandatory Volunteerism" is a transparently propagandist name that tells me nothing about what the heck you're referring to. |
| 20:40.25 | sjansen | So, uhm, what the heck are you talking about? |
| 20:40.32 | Jayce^ | sjansen: the GIVE act.. |
| 20:40.52 | Jayce^ | Orrin supports it :( |
| 20:41.21 | sjansen | Orrin a crazy old coot, and not in a "get off my lawn" good sort of way. |
| 20:41.23 | Jayce^ | Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education Act |
| 20:41.55 | unum | I think this is one thing I might agree with him on |
| 20:42.06 | Jayce^ | http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1388 |
| 20:42.19 | unum | I'm not sure how he keeps getting reelected. the conservitives hate him. us liberals hate him |
| 20:43.56 | Tene | http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Leviticus_11 |
| 20:44.39 | unum | fozzmoo: you're going to have to give me the exact text that makes it mandatory |
| 20:44.42 | unum | i can't find it |
| 20:44.49 | unum | looking at the full text of the bill |
| 20:45.12 | sjansen | Nor I. |
| 20:45.56 | Jayce^ | things like "service-learning is a mandatory part of the curriculum in all of the secondary schools served by the local educational agency." |
| 20:46.20 | elg | 4 words: incumbent republican mormon utah |
| 20:47.55 | Jayce^ | Under section 6104 of the bill, entitled âDuties,â in subsection B6, the legislation states that a commission will be set up to investigate, âWhether a workable, fair, and reasonable mandatory service requirement for all able young people could be developed, and how such a requirement could be implemented in a manner that would strengthen the social fabric of the Nation and overcome civic challenges by bringing together people from diverse economi |
| 20:48.51 | unum | oh, so part of going to school would be learning to do service |
| 20:48.51 | unum | ah |
| 20:48.51 | unum | cool |
| 20:48.51 | unum | good idea |
| 20:49.05 | sjansen | So you object schools being required to provide an _optional_ opportunity to students. |
| 20:49.07 | Jayce^ | and don't forget, no religious service may count as part of it |
| 20:49.21 | Jayce^ | sjansen: a lot of it stops being optional |
| 20:49.32 | Jayce^ | especially when it becomes the standard way to get into school |
| 20:49.38 | Jayce^ | eg, college |
| 20:49.52 | sjansen | And you object to even considering a mandatory period of public service that could be described as a less aggressive form of the mandatory military service in some countries? |
| 20:50.20 | Jayce^ | sjansen: well, first off, it's against the law |
| 20:51.13 | sjansen | Jayce^: Unless you're referring to some constitutional law that would have also made the draft illegal, I don't see how that's a strong objection. |
| 20:52.04 | sjansen | So far as I'm aware, there was not constitutional objection to the draft. Instead it was mostly about the ineffectiveness of conscripted troops. |
| 20:52.28 | elg | ~draft sjansen |
| 20:55.02 | sjansen | Many countries require all young around 20 years old to service a mandatory period of military service. Including democracies like Brazil, Israel and Finland. Not merely to save money on national defense, but also as a method of building social unity. |
| 20:55.04 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service |
| 20:55.30 | Jayce^ | 13th ammendment |
| 20:55.50 | sjansen | I don't see why the mere consideration of a less dangerous, less aggressive program should be immediately rejected out of hand. |
| 20:56.36 | sjansen | You're really going to compare mandatory military service to slavery? |
| 20:56.43 | Jayce^ | yes |
| 20:56.54 | Jayce^ | mandatory service.. |
| 20:56.59 | Jayce^ | seems to fit the definition |
| 20:57.00 | sjansen | In Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328 (1916), the Supreme Court ruled that the military draft was not "involuntary servitude". -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution |
| 20:57.19 | sjansen | The Supreme Court seems to disagree. |
| 20:58.06 | sjansen | And at any rate, I think that comparing mandatory national service to slavery is extremely offensive. |
| 20:59.27 | sjansen | If you're going to argue that national service is the type of mandatory service referred to, you're also going to have to accept that prisoners must not be required to do anything more than sit around watching TV while incarcerated. |
| 20:59.55 | Jayce^ | actually, the bill of rights excludes prisoners |
| 21:00.49 | Tene | "The Bill of Rights" is the first ten amendments to the constitution. 13 > 10 |
| 21:01.05 | Jayce^ | Tene: did I state that that was in the 13th? |
| 21:01.15 | sjansen | Checking the text, Jayce^ is right, even if his label is wrong. |
| 21:01.26 | Tene | 'kay |
| 21:02.18 | sjansen | Of course, he still hasn't convinced me that the Supreme Court will side with him based on previous interpretations. |
| 21:02.19 | sinuhe | sjansen: The 13th ammendment explicitly allows for prisoner involuntary servitiude. |
| 21:02.46 | Jayce^ | sjansen: kinda hard to prove what way the supreme court will go at any time.. |
| 21:03.06 | sjansen | Jayce^: So you admit that it might not illegal as previously claimed? |
| 21:03.24 | Jayce^ | but mandatory non-military service, especially in the co-opted name of charity is a bad thing |
| 21:03.59 | Jayce^ | mandatory military is a pretty hefty thing too |
| 21:04.56 | sjansen | So serious that the mere discussion of the possibility must be opposed? |
| 21:05.14 | Jayce^ | it's far beyond mere discussion now.. |
| 21:05.22 | Jayce^ | they have already passed the house, and are working on the senate.. |
| 21:05.32 | Jayce^ | promising very large amounts of money |
| 21:05.35 | sjansen | All the bill proposed is consideration of possible programs. |
| 21:05.54 | sjansen | So far the label "Mandatory Volunteerism" seems more scaremongering than truth. |
| 21:05.56 | Jayce^ | much to existing programs that have already proven themselves poorly |
| 21:06.29 | Jayce^ | and the fact that those giving oversight to the program previously stated the intent for mandatory service |
| 21:08.21 | sjansen | Mandatory national servcie doesn't appear to have destroyed Finland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Israel or Brazil yet. |
| 21:10.46 | Jayce^ | and yet, they, are not us... |
| 21:11.35 | sjansen | Heaven forbid we learn anything from any other nation. |
| 21:11.42 | Jayce^ | bleh, just had to try and explain "non-deterministic encryption" to a support person .. |
| 21:12.10 | Jayce^ | sjansen: I think mandatory service has been around far longer than our choice of the lack of it |
| 21:12.23 | sjansen | It should be obvious to all that as a beacon on a hill we are sole possessors of all truth and must be careful to not contaminate ourselves with ideas not invented here. |
| 21:12.45 | Jayce^ | I think the independent choice element is the most important aspect.. |
| 21:13.04 | Jayce^ | we dont' need/want our federal govt putting its hands into yet another part of our life |
| 21:13.39 | sjansen | If you get to trot out slavery, i do too. We choose, at a certain point in our history, to allow slavery. Did that make it forever always the right choice for our country? |
| 21:13.43 | Jayce^ | they have no reason, and we definitely dont' need them promising the money to do this |
| 21:15.19 | sjansen | *shrug* I'm not strongly in favor of the bill. I'm just strongly annoyed by the attempt to defeat it by blatant propagandism. |
| 21:15.21 | Jayce^ | ah, but in the beginning ,we left it to the states, removing it was already in process before it was removed.. and even then, it was changed in the proper manner (after the war) |
| 21:15.55 | sjansen | And the right of women to vote? |
| 21:16.12 | Jayce^ | sjansen: anything condensing that much into a single IRC line will be considered propagandism |
| 21:16.12 | sjansen | Heck, even the right on non-property owners to vote? |
| 21:16.37 | Jayce^ | sjansen: and what way was it changed, through the actions of the states.. |
| 21:20.38 | sjansen | Surely you're not still talking about the end of slavery. |
| 21:20.53 | Jayce^ | no, I continued on with the discussion as you did |
| 21:21.42 | Jayce^ | whee, utah photographers have to self-audit themselves, back to 2006, now that UT redefined photography as NOT a service, but as a good.. and pay all back taxes |
| 21:21.51 | sjansen | Unless you credit the confederacies decision to secede with ending slavery. |
| 21:22.32 | sjansen | Retroactive taxes? Now there's something to get upset about. |
| 21:22.52 | elg | ~tax sjansen |
| 21:23.04 | sjansen | ~spend elg |
| 21:23.05 | Jayce^ | yup.. local community is quite pissed |
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| 21:23.28 | elg | you live in a photographer community |
| 21:23.29 | elg | ? |
| 21:23.41 | elg | take occasional field trips to harleypig's house? |
| 21:23.45 | Jayce^ | yup :) |
| 21:23.47 | sjansen | I can almost see the redefinition, just not the retroactive application. |
| 21:23.59 | Jayce^ | elg: just helped run the PhotocampUT :) |
| 21:24.23 | sjansen | To the blogs! |
| 21:24.43 | elg | a good eh? like music? |
| 21:25.05 | Jayce^ | looks like the senate just passed the bill :( |
| 21:25.07 | elg | photos have never been all that difficult to copy, if you had the negatives, and now with digital photography... |
| 21:25.22 | Jayce^ | wonder if they'll be used with the "Civilian Expeditionary Force" |
| 21:25.51 | elg | i think a photograph is like a performance |
| 21:26.20 | sjansen | I think a photograph is like a muffin. |
| 21:26.28 | elg | english or american? |
| 21:26.55 | Supaplex | yes |
| 21:27.14 | sjansen | Belorussian. |
| 21:27.20 | elg | you do know that english muffins are american too |
| 21:27.41 | sjansen | Angolan? |
| 21:27.43 | elg | best theory i've heard is that that Thomas guy was trying to capture crumpets |
| 21:28.06 | Jayce^ | Management retains the authority to direct and assign civilian employees, either voluntarily, involuntarily, or on an unexpected basis to accomplish the DoD mission. |
| 21:28.10 | elg | now, the brits do call things like english muffins muffins (bread like, not cake like what we call muffins) |
| 21:28.25 | Jayce^ | mmm, english muffins... |
| 21:28.32 | Supaplex | ~feed Jayce^ |
| 21:28.32 | ibot | ACTION offers Jayce^ some horseraddish |
| 21:28.44 | elg | but they're not really what we call english muffins. rather, what we call english muffins are a subset of what an englishman might call a muffin |
| 21:29.42 | elg | which is like calling chevy novas "American Cars" and ignoring all the other american cars |
| 21:29.42 | elg | except english muffins are good |
| 21:29.42 | elg | unlike chevy novas |
| 21:29.51 | sjansen | There's nothing in the morning quite like an english muffin topped with corned beef and dulce de leche. |
| 21:30.02 | elg | heh |
| 21:30.04 | elg | are you serious? |
| 21:30.11 | elg | that sounds ... almost worth a try |
| 21:30.19 | sjansen | If you do, let me know. |
| 21:30.27 | Jayce^ | gags |
| 21:30.30 | elg | luckily i ate all my corned beef |
| 21:30.39 | sjansen | If was going for the edge of absurd without crossing over completely. |
| 21:30.48 | Jayce^ | now, corned beef hash, with a muffin on the side.. |
| 21:31.08 | elg | english muffin should be toasted with butter and honey |
| 21:31.12 | elg | or maybe jam. strawberry |
| 21:31.15 | elg | but only when there's no honey |
| 21:31.22 | elg | and corned beef hash is delicious |
| 21:31.31 | Jayce^ | hrm, I really gotta figure out how to make good corned beef hash, been a long time since I tried, and I could never get it as good as my dads |
| 21:32.00 | Jayce^ | he always had just the right amount of crispy bits, and never a big soggy lump |
| 21:32.48 | sjansen | wants a corned beef sandwich with a side of sauerkraut |
| 21:33.08 | Jayce^ | nix the kraut |
| 21:34.50 | sjansen | Why would I want to install Linux on a German? |
| 21:35.12 | Supaplex | das is nin goot? |
| 21:35.22 | Jayce^ | decides not to make a joke about where to shove the dvd |
| 21:35.37 | Jayce^ | Supaplex: das ist nicht güt |
| 21:36.06 | unum | http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/89q3/engin.622.html |
| 21:36.06 | brac | [From harsh life experiences we all know that: [rec.humor.funny]] |
| 21:36.34 | Jayce^ | man, wish I owned this domain http://oneliner.pl/ |
| 21:37.48 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Thanks. |
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| 22:40.37 | goozbach | http://followcost.com/about/milliscoble |
| 22:40.38 | brac | [follow cost: Is understanding milliscobles worth the pain?] |
| 22:42.47 | sjansen | ~tweet I'm reading a link from goozbach |
| 22:43.15 | sjansen | ~tweet Watching Front Runner go by. |
| 22:43.36 | sjansen | ~tweet Wondering if anyone will notice I just farted. |
| 22:43.48 | elg | should set up a twitter acct for ibot and allow ~tweet |
| 22:43.50 | elg | that could be funny |
| 22:44.03 | elg | and he could repeat @ stuff in all the channels he's in |
| 22:44.08 | elg | or something |
| 22:44.15 | elg | is reaching the limit of his twitter knowledge |
| 22:44.27 | sjansen | ~tweet Pondering the retrograde dynamics of multi-discipline Internet enabled cloud grids. |
| 22:45.30 | sjansen | ~tweet Just decided to stop by Five Guys on the way home from work. |
| 22:46.48 | elg | ~whack sjansen |
| 22:46.49 | ibot | ACTION whacks sjansen upside the head. |
| 22:46.51 | elg | ~steal sjansen's food |
| 22:46.52 | ibot | ACTION grabs sjansen's food and gives it to elg |
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| 22:48.32 | sjansen | ~tweet Just recommended using HTML in an email to potential customers. I feel dirty. |
| 22:49.04 | sjansen | ~tweet In pain and hungry. I vow revenge against elg. |
| 22:49.17 | elg | ~clean sjansen |
| 22:49.18 | ibot | ACTION nukes sjansen's room and says to sjansen: Und zie problem is solved |
| 22:50.02 | sjansen | ~tweet Can't go home. Too radioactive. I will make elg pay. |
| 22:51.01 | elg | needs a candy bar or something |
| 22:51.07 | elg | but no 1s or change :( |
| 22:52.26 | sjansen | ~tweet Considering adding context processors to my Django CMS. Is this a sign I'm doing something wrong? |
| 22:52.28 | ibot | that's too long, sjansen |
| 22:52.51 | sjansen | ibot: Have you really been tweeting everything I've said?! |
| 22:53.32 | sjansen | ~literal tweet |
| 22:53.41 | sjansen | ~help tweet |
| 22:53.57 | elg | haha |
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| 23:08.52 | fungus | ~literal cmd: tweet (.*?) |
| 23:20.48 | elg | TimRiker: ? |
| 23:27.45 | Rolcol | Was anyone at the gas leak? |
| 23:29.38 | fungus | I do that on a regular basis. |
| 23:30.05 | elg | gas leak? |
| 23:36.28 | Rolcol | There was a gas leak at the university of utah. I asked here because it's #utah. |
| 23:52.47 | synic | this is really more #utahcounty than #utah |
| 23:52.58 | synic | :P |
| 23:59.14 | Rolcol | meh |