| 00:00.30 | sjansen | It would also be nice to have money trees. If driving to the train station and waiting for the train takes longer and costs more than driving 30 miles alone, guess what people will do? |
| 00:00.51 | jshipley | a more complete solution would probably end up using more gas by running empty buses through the country |
| 00:01.12 | jshipley | for 30 miles I'd rather drive, sure, but what about 600 miles? |
| 00:01.46 | jshipley | Still, if taking a train costs about the same as taking a plane, why would anybody want to take a train? |
| 00:01.51 | eightyeight | ok. so, this is sql 101, but i'm failing to see what' i'm going wrong. what's wrong with this statement? postgresql doesn't like it: |
| 00:01.54 | sjansen | The simple problem is, public transportation isn't possible without sufficient population density. Yet we're lead to believe that high density populations are bad for the environment. |
| 00:02.03 | eightyeight | ALTER TABLE inventory_hardware ADD ( "cpu" varchar(25) NOT NULL, "architecture" varchar(25) NOT NULL, "memory_size" varchar(25) NOT NULL, "number_of_disks" varchar(25) NOT NULL, "total_disk_space" varchar(25) NOT NULL); |
| 00:02.38 | sjansen | eightyeight: What is the error message? |
| 00:02.45 | levi | sjansen: How are we led to believe that high population density is bad for the environment? |
| 00:02.47 | unum | eightyeight: you need to give default values if you already have rows in your table |
| 00:02.57 | eightyeight | syntax error at or near "ALTER" |
| 00:03.11 | eightyeight | unum: for the existing rows you mean? |
| 00:03.18 | unum | eightyeight: ya |
| 00:03.25 | sjansen | Are double quotes allowed? They're un-SQL-y. |
| 00:03.31 | unum | though it shouldn't give you that error |
| 00:03.39 | eightyeight | sjansen: they're django-y though |
| 00:03.45 | unum | the double quotes mean you are referencing a column |
| 00:03.49 | fugue88 | ALTER TABLE table ADD cpu varchar(25) not null, add arch ... |
| 00:03.50 | unum | it allows you to use spaces |
| 00:04.07 | fugue88 | No parantheses, eightyeight |
| 00:04.13 | fugue88 | parentheses |
| 00:04.18 | eightyeight | fugue88: doesn't the () make it possible for a single add statement? |
| 00:04.23 | fugue88 | or whatever |
| 00:05.07 | fugue88 | Nope, the parens aren't part of the grammar there. |
| 00:05.27 | jshipley | the parens should be used for adding multiple columns |
| 00:05.42 | eightyeight | that's my goal... |
| 00:06.03 | eightyeight | i want 5 new columns in my inventory_hardware table |
| 00:06.12 | fugue88 | Use a separate ADD ... clause for each column; at least, in 8.2. |
| 00:06.22 | fugue88 | The ADD clauses are comma-separated. |
| 00:07.23 | eightyeight | hmmm. still getting syntax error at or near "ALTER" |
| 00:07.49 | fugue88 | What's the statement you're trying now? |
| 00:08.15 | unum | look like you need a , before additional adds |
| 00:08.25 | eightyeight | i have the comma there |
| 00:08.34 | eightyeight | ALTER TABLE inventory_hardware ADD "cpu" varchar(25) NOT NULL, ADD "architecture" varchar(25) NOT NULL, ADD "memory_size" varchar(25) NOT NULL, ADD "number_of_disks" varchar(25) NOT NULL, ADD "total_disk_space" varchar(25) NOT NULL; |
| 00:09.19 | unum | do you need to write the word "column"? |
| 00:09.33 | fugue88 | Funny. Worked for my, eightyeight. |
| 00:09.37 | eightyeight | the docs show it's optional, but i guess it wouldn't hurt |
| 00:09.40 | unum | hmm the documentation has it in [] so you shouldn't need it |
| 00:09.49 | fugue88 | s/my/me |
| 00:09.53 | fugue88 | s/my/me/ |
| 00:09.53 | fugue88 | Sheesh. |
| 00:09.59 | eightyeight | something isn't right. maybe it's copying/pasting from vim on a synergy client |
| 00:10.11 | unum | eightyeight: are you trying to run it from with in django |
| 00:10.29 | eightyeight | no. pgadmin3 |
| 00:10.51 | sjansen | GUIs are for sissies. |
| 00:10.59 | fugue88 | psql ftw |
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| 00:11.01 | eightyeight | i've got the sql editor pulled up, and trying it through f7, before committing |
| 00:11.11 | eightyeight | sjansen: then why are you using gnome? |
| 00:11.33 | sjansen | psql is great, all readline-y and everything. |
| 00:11.51 | eightyeight | to each his own. still doesn't explain my problem |
| 00:12.30 | findlay | ~explain |
| 00:12.42 | findlay | ~explain eightyeight |
| 00:12.53 | eightyeight | ~forget findlay |
| 00:12.53 | ibot | eightyeight: i didn't have anything called 'findlay ' to forget |
| 00:13.07 | findlay | ~say -chat ~say -chat |
| 00:13.08 | ibot | -chat ~say -chat |
| 00:13.08 | brac | ~say -chat ~lart Supaplex |
| 00:13.09 | ibot | -chat ~lart Supaplex |
| 00:13.09 | brac | ~lart Supaplex |
| 00:13.09 | ibot | installs a bad bootloader on Supaplex and turns Supaplex into a brick |
| 00:13.34 | findlay | -chat Supaplex is |
| 00:13.35 | brac | Supaplex is |
| 00:13.42 | findlay | -chat findlay |
| 00:13.42 | brac | findlay had |
| 00:13.51 | eightyeight | i guess it's time to get this off the dev machine, and onto an actual server, which means mod_wsgi. ugh |
| 00:15.14 | unum | eightyeight: does the table have existing rows |
| 00:15.22 | eightyeight | yes |
| 00:15.49 | unum | then your statement will not work |
| 00:15.56 | eightyeight | i don't see why i'd need to add data to exists fields if i'm adding new ones |
| 00:16.03 | eightyeight | s/exists/existing/ |
| 00:16.16 | unum | because you have a not null restraint |
| 00:16.32 | unum | what data do you expect to be put in the new columns for existing rows |
| 00:17.22 | eightyeight | i guess i don't understand then. the not null restraint is in place for adding a new dataset. it means that a field can't remain empty. i'm not adding any data, just modifying the infrastructure |
| 00:17.48 | sjansen | The database will not allow you to make your existing data invalid. Keeping data valid is the whole point of data integrity. |
| 00:18.12 | fugue88 | If you have any rows already in that table, then unum's right: add the columns w/o constraints, populate the new columns for every row, then add the constraints. |
| 00:18.23 | unum | the not null restraint is in place for ALL data in the table, not just new data |
| 00:18.45 | fugue88 | But that still doesn't explain why you're getting a syntax error for your second statement. |
| 00:18.59 | unum | you can not set a restraint on an existing table until the table matches those restraints |
| 00:19.14 | fortyseventeen | whee sql. fun times, fun time. |
| 00:19.16 | fortyseventeen | s. |
| 00:19.18 | Tene | eightyeight: if you're adding NOT NULL columns to a table with existing rows, you also need to specify a default. |
| 00:19.26 | unum | I don't understand why he's getting the errors he's getting, but I know what error he should be getting :) |
| 00:19.56 | fugue88 | So what we're seeing is a meta-error... :D |
| 00:20.09 | sjansen | When I get syntax errors on a line that looks valid to me, I type it in again completely from scratch. Often helps. |
| 00:20.32 | eightyeight | yeah. done that. |
| 00:20.53 | sjansen | has an evil though |
| 00:21.13 | sjansen | What if you're copying from Windows and it's insertin the Unicode BOM at the beginning? |
| 00:21.25 | eightyeight | i'm having odd synergy issues though. hitting my backspace produces a "BS" character, and the delete key, an ASCII code |
| 00:21.36 | sjansen | Heavens to mergatroid, thought even. |
| 00:21.42 | sjansen | Exit stage right. |
| 00:22.06 | eightyeight | sjansen: that would be quite the feat, as i'm copying from gvim to pgadmin3 on linux |
| 00:22.47 | fugue88 | eightyeighty, try the statement w/o quotes around your column names. I don't think you need them in this case... |
| 00:26.11 | fugue88 | s/eightyeighty/eightyeight/ |
| 00:29.29 | Tene | http://paulbiggar.blogspot.com/2008/12/introducing-malicious-code-reviews.html |
| 00:32.49 | eightyeight | so, am i understanding that i need to first alter the table adding the columns without the constraints, populate it with data, say '', then alter the table altering the column to set the constraint 'not null'? |
| 00:33.10 | eightyeight | seems like a lot of work |
| 00:34.27 | fugue88 | Yes. Or, if you're just going to use some filler like '', use a default value for the column as Tene suggested. |
| 00:34.40 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 00:35.08 | eightyeight | so 'ALTER TABLE foo ADD "bar" varchar(25) DEFAULT='' NOT NULL' |
| 00:35.59 | Tene | eightyeight: you can set a default value for the column |
| 00:36.22 | fugue88 | DEFAULT '' |
| 00:36.24 | fugue88 | not |
| 00:36.27 | fugue88 | DEFAULT='' |
| 00:36.44 | eightyeight | oh |
| 00:37.45 | eightyeight | heh |
| 00:37.52 | eightyeight | bangs head on brick wall |
| 00:38.05 | eightyeight | f5 not f7 |
| 00:38.15 | fugue88 | http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/static/sql-commands.html |
| 00:38.19 | fugue88 | is your friend |
| 00:38.38 | fugue88 | Wrong key in pgadmin? |
| 00:38.38 | eightyeight | oh, i had the docs pulled up |
| 00:38.46 | eightyeight | i was pressing the wrong key |
| 00:38.50 | fugue88 | Crazy! |
| 00:39.08 | eightyeight | i don't want to hear it about console apps. i know their strength |
| 00:39.31 | fugue88 | Now I'm curious about why pgadmin would've been claiming a syntax error on its own, even for valid sql. |
| 00:39.39 | fugue88 | Glad it's working though. |
| 00:39.53 | eightyeight | looks like f7 is supposed to explain the execution? |
| 00:40.07 | eightyeight | dunno. it worked, which means i can go get dinner now |
| 00:40.50 | eightyeight | which i guess brings up the question: can i do a "dry run" of the sql, without actually executing it? is that f7? i guess i'll need to find out |
| 00:40.58 | eightyeight | fugue88: Tene: unum: thx |
| 00:43.34 | fugue88 | Ah! EXPLAIN doesn't work on DDL statements, such as ALTERs. |
| 00:51.01 | eggyknap | hates coming in late to a pgsql conversation, and returns sulkily to lurk mode. |
| 00:54.31 | fortyseventeen | good choice. |
| 01:00.45 | jlp_work | eightyeight: begin transaction; do your thing; rollback; |
| 01:12.17 | Sargun_Screen | I'm tired/bored |
| 01:12.46 | goozbach | ok, here's something my falling asleep last night brain thought up |
| 01:12.56 | goozbach | it could go one or two ways: |
| 01:13.16 | goozbach | 1) "That's Brilliant!!! I wanna help" |
| 01:13.50 | goozbach | 2) "That's a `Sargun Level` Idea, booo!" |
| 01:14.03 | goozbach | s/one or/one of/ |
| 01:14.14 | goozbach | anyway, my idea: |
| 01:15.16 | goozbach | BASHpan -- a CPAN like repository for bash functions/scripts/etc |
| 01:15.21 | Sargun_Screen | oh, god. |
| 01:15.39 | Supaplex | CBAN? |
| 01:15.46 | goozbach | Supaplex: exactly |
| 01:15.56 | Sargun_Screen | ICANHAZCPAN? |
| 01:16.48 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:16.51 | goozbach | BATS |
| 01:17.45 | goozbach | am I entirely nutso? |
| 01:17.49 | goozbach | would anyone use this? |
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| 01:18.28 | goozbach | I envision the interface like so: |
| 01:18.46 | goozbach | #!/bin/bash |
| 01:18.55 | goozbach | . /etc/bats-loader |
| 01:19.10 | goozbach | BATS-Load getopts |
| 01:19.23 | goozbach | getopts ... |
| 01:19.37 | goozbach | other function exported by getopts bats module |
| 01:19.42 | goozbach | ... etc |
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| 01:23.28 | sjansen | Wow. Fox's executives are pretty much evil, aren't they? |
| 01:25.37 | goozbach | sjansen: yes, but why specificly this time? |
| 01:25.56 | sjansen | http://www.hulu.com/solitary |
| 01:26.09 | Sargun_Screen | goozbach: make it lazy loadfunctions |
| 01:26.12 | Sargun_Screen | goozbach: using Curl |
| 01:26.17 | Sargun_Screen | or use the /dev/tcp thing |
| 01:27.56 | goozbach | sjansen: that's rich, no? |
| 01:30.20 | levi | Yay, my iBook lives! |
| 01:30.28 | goozbach | reality TV will be the downfall of civilation |
| 01:30.45 | levi | Turns out my DC-in board was good all the while. It was just my power adapter that was bad. |
| 01:30.58 | goozbach | Sargun_Screen: what do you mean lazy loadfunctions? |
| 01:31.45 | goozbach | sjansen: what was that tool you used to make a chroot jail? |
| 01:35.59 | sjansen | debootstrap? |
| 01:38.30 | goozbach | nevermind, I found one, mach |
| 01:38.59 | goozbach | I vaguely remember you having many distros on your laptop at once using nothing but chroots |
| 01:55.29 | findlay | ~chroot goozbach |
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| 02:13.30 | levi | Geez, they approved the 4-month delay for the digital switchover. |
| 02:14.59 | sjansen | goozbach: Oh, you meant mock. IIRC, mach is the older generation. |
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| 02:15.57 | sjansen | levi: You expected anything different? Doing nothing is hard and requires courage. Doing something is easy and makes politicians look like they care. |
| 02:16.30 | goozbach | mach doesn't seem to be very happy on Fedora 10 |
| 02:17.17 | sjansen | $ rpm -q mock |
| 02:17.17 | sjansen | mock-0.9.13-1.fc10.noarch |
| 02:19.24 | sjansen | http://pastebin.com/d35a12f33 |
| 02:19.25 | sjansen | http://pastebin.com/m3bcce03b |
| 02:19.40 | goozbach | mach isn't happy, I just installed mock, trying to run it non-root |
| 02:20.01 | sjansen | Good luck with that, pretty sure it can't be done. |
| 02:20.52 | goozbach | meh, I can run it as root |
| 02:20.59 | goozbach | mach seems better |
| 02:21.04 | goozbach | wonder why it died |
| 02:21.16 | goozbach | ~betamax mach |
| 02:21.22 | sjansen | The problem is the building the root environment, bind mounting and so on. |
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| 02:38.09 | levi | Man, I missed OS X. |
| 02:38.55 | levi | Now I just need to get it on a laptop with some decent speed. :) |
| 02:41.17 | Tene | What did you miss about it? |
| 02:42.43 | levi | The look and feel, mostly. |
| 02:43.07 | sjansen | Mac OS X is just more lickable. levi didn't really miss OS X, he missed the powerful chemical hit from his screen cleaner. |
| 02:44.14 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:44.21 | levi | Sweet. |
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| 03:34.37 | levi | downloads the Windows 7 beta. |
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| 03:59.33 | findlay | ~download levi |
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| 04:22.20 | levi | Bah, math. |
| 04:23.21 | Sargun | Yes, Bah, math. |
| 04:23.32 | levi | This stuff is very useful, but annoying to work through. |
| 04:29.26 | findlay | what math? |
| 04:29.33 | findlay | I'm a math minor, you know :) |
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| 04:29.52 | findlay | that means I know stuff |
| 04:30.00 | tensai | math stuff? |
| 04:30.06 | findlay | indeed |
| 04:30.28 | tensai | well, then. a test is in order. |
| 04:30.31 | tensai | 2+2=? |
| 04:30.46 | findlay | that means that ? = 2+2 |
| 04:31.38 | tensai | that is useful and annoying. you know your math. |
| 04:37.48 | levi | findlay: Numerical math for computing. |
| 04:38.15 | levi | For instance, this question asks me what a good way to compute e^x - e if full machine precision is needed. |
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| 04:45.27 | Tene_ | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4387496359091532951 |
| 04:47.18 | levi | I'm assuming that the answer involves the Taylor series for e^x. |
| 04:48.53 | findlay | levi: oooh sounds exciting |
| 04:49.11 | findlay | lots of series out there |
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| 04:49.55 | findlay | this one Indian mathematician came up with series for which successive terms converged with exponentially increasing precision |
| 04:50.10 | Tene_ | Very impressive demo. Up to 9:30 is one side of a disc. |
| 04:50.11 | findlay | many modern series for computing pi are based on his work |
| 04:52.02 | levi | Tene_: What is the demonstration of? |
| 04:55.18 | Tene_ | levi: demo as in 'flashy graphics on old computers' |
| 04:56.23 | levi | Ah, that kind of demo. |
| 05:01.52 | elg | the senate passed the dtv delay |
| 05:02.04 | elg | backwards. the house has to pass it still. i hope they don't |
| 05:02.28 | elg | i really don't see how anyone who could possibly care could have avoided hearing about it at least 10 times in the past 3 months |
| 05:02.57 | elg | sure, if you don't watch tv, you might not be aware of the impending switch |
| 05:03.01 | elg | but then why do you care? |
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| 05:34.01 | tensai | am I really here? |
| 05:34.01 | levi` | I hear you. |
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| 05:34.48 | levi | freenode is seriously busted right now, apparently. |
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| 05:38.22 | RyanE | I dig ruby shoes. http://shoooes.net Any app that'll make it's own executables for Mac, Win, and Linux just rocks. |
| 05:38.23 | brac | [Shoes • Colorful programs for Mac OS X, Linux and Windows] |
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| 05:47.20 | levi | RyanE: Factor makes executables for Mac, Win, and Linux, too. |
| 05:47.42 | levi | RyanE: It doesn't have quite the same emphasis on graphics, though. |
| 05:48.46 | RyanE | levi: groovy. When you say 'graphics', do you mean it doesn't make GUIs? |
| 05:52.22 | levi | RyanE: No, it can make GUIs, but they're not the emphasis. |
| 05:56.24 | levi | RyanE: See factorcode.org |
| 05:56.56 | levi | RyanE: Factor runs the entire website, along with the build system that automatically creates the binary downloads. |
| 06:00.43 | RyanE | IC. thx. |
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| 06:11.26 | tensai | oh, no. not again with jsmith. and I'm sure he's in bed too. |
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| 08:25.36 | levi | Heh. So Windows 7 doesn't have a built-in driver for my Thinkpad. |
| 08:26.05 | levi | Fortunately, my iBook can share its internet connection easily. |
| 08:35.21 | Supaplex | humm |
| 08:35.46 | Supaplex | man find on my ibook shows -x is supported, but find /path -x says nay. :-/ |
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| 13:50.56 | eggyknap | That's lots of /nick-s |
| 14:02.32 | jsmith | Sorry folks... IRC proxy gone awry |
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| 15:06.03 | eightyeight | good fravy |
| 15:07.06 | eightyeight | s/f/g/ |
| 15:07.30 | Sargun_Screen | GRAVY! |
| 15:07.42 | Sargun_Screen | I'd like some gravy on my enchiladas. |
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| 15:32.52 | *** topic/#utah by eightyeight -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | Ruby looks like broken Perl when you read it but acts like broken Python when you run it. |
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| 15:47.58 | nicros | any body here use subversion? have problems with binary files currupting the repository? |
| 15:48.11 | elg | http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_11560586 |
| 15:48.31 | elg | there's a lesson there for those who would go impromptu camping |
| 15:49.23 | nicros | probably would have been easier to see if he had a tent or camp fire. |
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| 15:58.08 | levi | It's probably just a really bad idea to lay down in front of a big rig. |
| 15:58.32 | levi | Also probably a bad idea to get drunk enough that you would do such a thing. |
| 15:58.37 | goozbach | camping in a parking lot? |
| 15:58.59 | goozbach | bah, you have to be sleeping on mis-shapen logs and/or rocks for it to really be camping |
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| 16:00.35 | eightyeight | i thought camping in parking lots was done in motorhomes at walmart? |
| 16:03.18 | levi | This wasn't really impromptu camping so much as it was drunken passing-out. |
| 16:09.40 | levi | Of course, the first problem was being in El Paso in the first place. :P |
| 16:12.06 | eightyeight | heh |
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| 16:23.48 | Tene_ | http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4 -- Conway's Life in APL. Really cool. |
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| 16:29.47 | levi | A powerful, but arcane, programming technique. |
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| 16:39.04 | sjansen | levi: ? |
| 16:39.05 | eightyeight | heh. i called this on day one: http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/26/digital-tv-transition-officially-delayed-until-june-12th/ |
| 16:39.08 | brac | [Senate okays digital TV transition delay to June 12th - Engadget] |
| 16:39.17 | eightyeight | anyone want to take bets that it gets delayed further? |
| 16:39.31 | high_roller | they should just give up |
| 16:39.39 | high_roller | let the transition happen organically |
| 16:41.14 | eightyeight | when i was selling electronics at rc willey in 2001, they had the date set to 2002, and people were asking about it |
| 16:41.31 | eightyeight | back then, the digital tv market share had to be 80% saturated before the switch |
| 16:41.39 | eightyeight | (which i don't think we've still hit) |
| 16:42.04 | eightyeight | i always told them that it will get pushed back, and don't expect it within 10 years |
| 16:42.19 | sjansen | Why waste money on a TV when most of the good shows are available online legal, and all of them are on bit torrent? |
| 16:42.43 | eightyeight | that was almost 8 years ago... |
| 16:42.59 | goozbach | eightyeight: when you have people like my grandparents, who have the same TV they purchased for a 5th anniversary gift... it's gonnna take a while to get 80% saturation |
| 16:43.09 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 16:43.44 | sjansen | The only people who care about the transition are watching over the air TV because they're too cheap to pay for cable. I say go all the way and forget the TV entirely! |
| 16:44.15 | eightyeight | our tv has been in repair since mid-december. i haven't missed it a bit. my wife on the other hand |
| 16:44.36 | high_roller | sjansen: I like your ideas and want to subscribe to your blog |
| 16:45.01 | sjansen | heh |
| 16:45.36 | high_roller | if we weren't in a contract with dish network, I would have canceled long ago |
| 16:45.37 | sjansen | Someday my blog will return. I started sporadically working on recreating it this year. |
| 16:46.48 | sjansen | high_roller: Tell you what, for the low, low price $100/month I'll get my blog back online by Feb 15. (Minimum 6 months prepaid subscription. Terms and conditions apply.) |
| 16:47.14 | high_roller | does that include hbo, showtime, and skinamax? |
| 16:47.22 | high_roller | err, cinemax |
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| 17:15.18 | levi | sjansen: My 'powerful but arcane programming techniqe' was in reference to Conway's life in APL. |
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| 17:25.12 | levi | So, I'm kind of liking Windows 7. |
| 17:25.59 | eightyeight | why's that? |
| 17:26.02 | levi | I still like OS X better, though. |
| 17:27.22 | levi | Windows 7 tends to 'just work', it's far more visually appealing than XP, and it seems to be less resource-intensive and more configurable in its chattiness than Vista. |
| 17:28.10 | eightyeight | i don't care for the style much, but it is less cartoonish than xp |
| 17:28.24 | levi | By 'just work', I mean it's got zeroconf printing and dns integrated finally (though I think it happened in Vista). |
| 17:28.51 | levi | There seems to be a little quirk with the wireless network selector, but I'm sure that'll get ironed out. |
| 17:29.01 | eightyeight | i hear they're taking down the system resource requirements a bit compared to vista |
| 17:29.18 | eightyeight | that it will run on netbooks |
| 17:29.24 | levi | Yeah, it seems to run nicely on my T41p, which is getting long in the tooth. |
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| 17:30.11 | levi | I haven't tried running more than a couple of web browsers, windows media player, and putty yet, though. |
| 17:32.20 | maquis | argh! |
| 17:33.51 | levi | Argh? |
| 17:36.24 | high_roller | with all the good press for windows 7, I would have sworn MS moved to the Linux kernel :) |
| 17:36.41 | levi | They've had a solid kernel since NT. |
| 17:36.47 | high_roller | windows 7 runs well as a kvm guest too |
| 17:36.54 | sjansen | yargh, matey! |
| 17:37.40 | sjansen | levi: Well, since the ripped out the mistakes they made trying to run the NT kernel on hardware too anemic for it. |
| 17:38.08 | levi | Well, yes, they had some missteps with it, but Linux has had a bit of a bumpy ride too. |
| 17:39.46 | sjansen | conveniently forgets about early 2.4 kernels |
| 17:40.06 | levi | My point is, switching to a Linux kernel would not really be any sort of a win for Windows. |
| 17:40.34 | high_roller | well, MS did take a play from opensource, release early, release often - but they call them betas now |
| 17:40.42 | sjansen | Yeah, the problem with Windows isn't so much its kernel anymore as the layers of legacy cruft and insane API ideas. |
| 17:40.43 | levi | MS has always done betas. |
| 17:41.03 | levi | Yeah, legacy cruft is the bane of Windows. |
| 17:41.18 | levi | Well, maybe not 'always', but this isn't the first one. |
| 17:41.53 | maquis | levi: just struggling with something here... |
| 17:41.53 | levi | MSDN subscribers have got new versions of the OS way before everyone else for a long time, though. |
| 17:41.55 | maquis | it's not behaving |
| 17:42.04 | levi | maquis: Join the club. :) |
| 17:44.55 | high_roller | yea, there have been windows betas, but not as widely released as windows 7 beta |
| 17:45.51 | levi | Ugh, it's time for me to get to my class. |
| 17:47.00 | sjansen | levi: Don't you think maybe you should consider graduation someday? |
| 17:47.36 | RyanE | sjansen: ouch. |
| 17:48.24 | levi | sjansen: This is my last class, aside from one I'm going to try to test out of. |
| 17:51.15 | thesuperbigfrog | maquis: it's too early to already be struggling |
| 17:55.53 | sjansen | It's never too early to be struggling. |
| 18:00.10 | Jayce^ | mrpull-x, "a black bull named Ragin' Red" yeeesh |
| 18:11.01 | fozzmoo | Today was "Tool Day" at my kids' school. |
| 18:11.17 | fozzmoo | Parents gave 20-min presentations on what they do at their jobs. |
| 18:11.32 | fozzmoo | I thought about showing up and sitting in a bathtub for 20 minutes. |
| 18:11.40 | fozzmoo | Didn't think they'd like that much. |
| 18:12.11 | Tene_ | heh |
| 18:12.22 | fozzmoo | I took a computer, monitor, keyboard and mouse and when it didn't turn on, went through some troubleshooting only to discover the case had no components in it. |
| 18:12.40 | fozzmoo | So, then I installed a motherboard, CPU, RAM, hard drives, and a video card. |
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| 18:12.51 | fozzmoo | Asked the kids if they could count to 2 billion in one secon. |
| 18:13.11 | fozzmoo | One kid said he could if he counted in billions. Smart kid. |
| 18:20.17 | Supaplex | fozzmoo: nice :) |
| 18:27.40 | unum | if anybody knows any students looking for a night job in the $10/hour range let me know |
| 18:27.54 | unum | in the salt lake city area |
| 18:29.58 | fozzmoo | unum: Are you soliciting on IRC now? ;-) |
| 18:32.37 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: what grade? |
| 18:33.00 | fozzmoo | My presentations were given to 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and then 1st graders. |
| 18:33.22 | eightyeight | what grade was the kid in that commented on counting in billions? |
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| 18:33.52 | Tene_ | unum: I /msg'd you, but no response... |
| 18:34.06 | elg | ~msg Tene_ |
| 18:34.28 | eightyeight | unum isn't ident'd to nickserv |
| 18:35.00 | eightyeight | come to find out, neither was i. :) |
| 18:35.13 | fozzmoo | I think the kid that commented on billions was in 2nd. Maybe 4rd. |
| 18:35.33 | eightyeight | 4rd, eh? new education system? :) |
| 18:35.35 | unum | fixes that |
| 18:35.41 | unum | sorry I was afk |
| 18:35.42 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 18:35.43 | fozzmoo | 3rd. |
| 18:36.04 | goozbach | 3th? |
| 18:36.11 | goozbach | or was it 4nd? |
| 18:36.29 | fozzmoo | Who DOESN'T have fat fingers? |
| 18:36.36 | fozzmoo | (besides levi) |
| 18:39.09 | eightyeight | my wife had me visit her 2nd graders to show them upper math, like calculus |
| 18:39.15 | neybar | Does anyone know if you can setup Postgres to allow authentication to the local socket with both ident and md5? I can only get it to accept one type or the other but not both. |
| 18:39.30 | eightyeight | i was showing them limits, and asked them to come up with the largest number they could |
| 18:39.48 | eightyeight | "one hundred thousand million billion trillion zillion gazillion" |
| 18:39.53 | eightyeight | :) |
| 18:40.46 | Supaplex | tilt your head at 90 degrees while looking at the number 8. |
| 18:41.11 | Supaplex | now eightyeight looks like infinityinfinity |
| 18:41.27 | sjansen | neybar: I could swear I've done it, but only one method per database. |
| 18:41.28 | goozbach | Supaplex: it's infinity over infinity, or 1 |
| 18:41.40 | Supaplex | hummm |
| 18:41.48 | Supaplex | granted =) |
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| 18:42.04 | sjansen | goozbach: Depends on the infinity. |
| 18:42.06 | maquis | is infinity / infinity really 1? |
| 18:42.17 | eightyeight | neybar: you can only have one AUTH_TYPE per IP, as i understand it |
| 18:42.21 | Supaplex | what else would it be? |
| 18:42.28 | maquis | what about (infinity * infinity)/infinity? |
| 18:42.30 | sjansen | uncountably infinite over coutable infinity is infiginormous |
| 18:42.37 | eightyeight | hmm. i just re-read the question |
| 18:42.40 | maquis | because... infinity * infinity = infinity... |
| 18:42.56 | maquis | so, you could get 1 |
| 18:43.13 | maquis | or you could use n*n/n = n, which would mean that then infinity*infinity/infinity = infinity |
| 18:43.21 | Supaplex | unless infinity was only 0, just to throw your test. ;) |
| 18:44.04 | Supaplex | wonders off to work |
| 18:46.55 | eightyeight | infinity isn't rational, therefore, it can't be 0 |
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| 18:47.10 | eightyeight | and it can't equate to a rational number such as 1 either |
| 18:47.14 | ^Migs^ | John Updike died' |
| 18:47.50 | eightyeight | inf / inf will always equal inf, no matter how you spin it |
| 18:49.04 | fortyseventeen | lim 2*n/n = 2. inf/inf can be anything. |
| 18:50.41 | goozbach | eightyeight: good point |
| 18:50.44 | eightyeight | you're using a limit to represent infinity as a sequence of natural numbers |
| 18:51.18 | eightyeight | rid yourself of the sequence |
| 18:55.15 | fortyseventeen | talking about 'infinities' outside of limits is kinda pointless though |
| 18:56.17 | eightyeight | grasping the concept of inifinity, however, is necessary for understanding it's opposite: zero |
| 18:56.59 | eightyeight | but you're right. our minds, and math, can't use inifinity reliably without limits |
| 18:59.34 | fozzmoo | "There's a limit to how large infinity can be." |
| 19:00.00 | eightyeight | "there's only one everything, and only one nothing." |
| 19:00.01 | fozzmoo | "Well, on this computer, yeah." |
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| 19:00.39 | eightyeight | does that make everything quantifiable and nothing something? |
| 19:01.05 | ^Migs^ | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/funny-pictures-you-should-make-sure-your-lolcat-is-genuine.jpg |
| 19:01.36 | eightyeight | http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/popculture/a359/zoom/ |
| 19:01.37 | brac | [ThinkGeek :: God Kills a LOLcat :: Zoom!] |
| 19:17.46 | ^Migs^ | LOL look at Jessica Simpson: http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jessicaweightgain6.jpg |
| 19:18.29 | sjansen | ^Migs^: why? |
| 19:19.06 | ^Migs^ | when did she put on 50 pounds? |
| 19:19.11 | ^Migs^ | actually, nm, I've already lost interest in talking about it |
| 19:20.16 | sjansen | ~steal ^Migs^ refined sugar and caffeine |
| 19:20.17 | ibot | ACTION grabs ^Migs^ refined sugar and caffeine and gives it to sjansen |
| 19:22.22 | fungus | Eww, "Mom Jeans" |
| 19:28.27 | high_roller | jessica simpson is just trying to appeal to country fans |
| 19:28.59 | ^Migs^ | yeah, it's all an act |
| 19:57.01 | Sargun_Screen | ho is jessica simpson |
| 19:57.04 | Sargun_Screen | or, hat did she do? |
| 19:59.53 | ^Migs^ | she's some singer |
| 20:00.08 | ^Migs^ | she visited one of our high schools here not long back |
| 20:00.16 | ^Migs^ | apparently the students weren't that impressed, lolz |
| 20:00.31 | jshipley | Sargun_Screen: is your w key broken? |
| 20:00.48 | Sargun_Screen | jshipley: my entire keyboard is broken |
| 20:00.58 | Sargun_Screen | Also, my connection is very laggy. |
| 20:01.37 | jshipley | that's too bad. I'll do my best to ignore any more missing w's :) |
| 20:05.51 | Supaplex | fungus: where's the bsd kernel sources on cvsweb etc? I find ports there, but I was hoping to show a few files related to load average calculation in some other docs. (linked to it) |
| 20:06.27 | fungus | kernel sources are in /usr/src/sys |
| 20:06.42 | fungus | http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/ |
| 20:06.43 | brac | [src/sys/] |
| 20:06.53 | Supaplex | okay |
| 20:09.53 | eightyeight | ^Migs^: did you just 'lol'? |
| 20:10.10 | ^Migs^ | no, I lolzed |
| 20:10.18 | eightyeight | 2:17 < ^Migs^> LOL look at Jessica Simpson: http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jessicaweightgain6.jpg |
| 20:10.30 | ^Migs^ | Oh, I did LOL. |
| 20:11.01 | ^Migs^ | Sometimes I ROFL too |
| 20:11.04 | ^Migs^ | but usually LOL |
| 20:12.08 | eightyeight | isn't 'lol', 'rofl', 'lmao' and others the leet speak of 12 years olds? :) |
| 20:12.33 | ^Migs^ | I don't think so |
| 20:12.57 | Supaplex | typically only if over used. :) |
| 20:13.06 | eightyeight | i'm just giving you crap |
| 20:13.47 | fungus | http://www.hulu.com/watch/10333/saturday-night-live-mom-jeans |
| 20:16.04 | ^Migs^ | yeah I know |
| 20:16.37 | ^Migs^ | I think adults only use words like that for fun and to be silly, not because they actually think it's "leet" |
| 20:25.27 | jshipley | I don't know that it's tied to a particular age-group, but I have seen a lot more in forums |
| 20:25.55 | jshipley | the best I've seen would have to be zomgwtfbbq |
| 20:27.16 | eightyeight | heh. i haven't seen this for some time: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5430343841227974645 |
| 20:27.19 | eightyeight | SFW |
| 20:27.50 | Sargun_Screen | does google have any nsfw videos? |
| 20:28.24 | Tene_ | depends on your employer |
| 20:29.08 | eightyeight | well, maybe the audio isn't sfw |
| 20:29.28 | Tene_ | depends on your employer |
| 20:30.05 | levi | Mmm, cookies. |
| 20:30.09 | eightyeight | the reader interprets as appropriate for their place of imployment |
| 20:30.12 | eightyeight | s/im/em/ |
| 20:31.14 | fungus | The original video for the song is available here: http://www.avenueq.com/videoclips.html |
| 20:31.14 | brac | [Avenue Q on Broadway] |
| 20:31.20 | unum | eightyeight: weren't you here when that went around |
| 20:31.29 | unum | I guess not, I wasn't really party of things before you left |
| 20:32.17 | eightyeight | unum: what, the video? probably. |
| 20:32.59 | eightyeight | probably came from jamie or cora i bet |
| 20:33.17 | unum | I think it was jamie |
| 20:33.37 | eightyeight | fungus: yeah. i was checking out avenue q on last.fm, went to wikipedia, then landed on google video |
| 20:34.05 | fungus | The WoW version is really funny too. |
| 20:34.19 | fungus | actually better as a video anyway. |
| 20:35.56 | eightyeight | heh. there's a harry potter version on youtube that isn't that well done |
| 20:51.24 | Sargun_Screen | I'm bored. |
| 21:00.39 | *** join/#utah bgerber (n=gerberb@suse103.zenez.com) |
| 21:04.04 | jsmith | Sargun_Screen: Go check on your N810 then :-p |
| 21:05.43 | goozbach | Sargun_Screen: get to work on BATS |
| 21:06.03 | eightyeight | Sargun_Screen: whatever happened to atarack? |
| 21:06.29 | jsmith | Sargun_Screen: Write me a DocBook-based CMS! |
| 21:06.35 | jsmith | throws out random ideas |
| 21:07.24 | goozbach | wonders if jsmith has been injured by too much exposure to docbook |
| 21:07.36 | goozbach | all that xml can really mess up your brain. |
| 21:07.54 | goozbach | I mean look at sjansen, he's been turning xml into tex for the longest time... |
| 21:08.06 | goozbach | that just compounds the problem |
| 21:08.27 | eightyeight | xml is dying |
| 21:08.36 | eightyeight | sorry. couldn't resist. :) |
| 21:09.03 | sjansen | BSD is dead, it just hasn't noticed yet. |
| 21:13.02 | fungus | sjansen: as bad as it pains me to say it, I think you are right. |
| 21:14.08 | jsmith | goozbach: There's nothing wrong with DocBook, or with turning it into TeX :-p |
| 21:14.43 | jsmith | goozbach: I don't pretend that Docbook is a new wonder drug and that it solves everyone else's problems |
| 21:14.59 | jsmith | goozbach: but it does make one good tool in my toolbelt, along with many other tools |
| 21:15.47 | goozbach | </jsmithbaiting> |
| 21:15.50 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:17.00 | sjansen | goozbach: Haven't you heard? These days we're using Haskell and APL to generate postscript which is then post processed with awk before converting it to PDF with Ghostscript. |
| 21:17.58 | sjansen | Oh, yeah, and we've converted all our XML to a mixture of YAML and JSON. |
| 21:20.38 | goozbach | sjansen: oh, cool |
| 21:20.41 | goozbach | didn't know that |
| 21:21.55 | sjansen | Yeah, XML is so last century. |
| 21:22.48 | sjansen | I've done some back of the envelope estimates. We expect to see a return on investment in a mere 15 years. |
| 21:23.16 | goozbach | nice |
| 21:23.34 | goozbach | probablly sooner if you started licenseing it |
| 21:23.50 | jsmith | sjansen: What, you went with YAML and not MarkDown? :-p |
| 21:24.05 | goozbach | ~multimarkdown++ |
| 21:24.11 | jsmith | sjansen: I mean, JSON makes perfect sense for documentation... but YAML? |
| 21:24.17 | jsmith | taunts back |
| 21:24.26 | sjansen | MarkDown wasn't semantic enough for our needs. |
| 21:26.25 | jsmith | Hey, at least we're finally on the same page on one thing :-) |
| 21:38.10 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/Staff/Sargun) |
| 21:54.32 | levi | I really liked Markdown when I was blogging. |
| 21:54.55 | levi | Last language I used like that was emacs org-mode markup, though. |
| 22:05.31 | fozzmoo | I like YAML. |
| 22:06.48 | jsmith | wasn't serious when he was knocking YAML... he was *trolling* |
| 22:14.41 | tensai | eightyeight: that dtv bill isn't law quite yet. there's still hope! |
| 22:15.06 | fozzmoo | Analog TV is too big to fail (be terminated)! |
| 22:15.41 | tensai | there's a competing house bill which imho would be much better |
| 22:15.43 | tensai | http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-661 |
| 22:15.48 | fozzmoo | BTW, I can't help but post these: |
| 22:15.50 | fozzmoo | http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/20639/ |
| 22:15.51 | eightyeight | i'm sticking to my guns- 2011 will be the year at the earliest |
| 22:15.59 | fozzmoo | http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/20641/ |
| 22:16.28 | tensai | and nothing precludes stations from voluntarily terminating their analog signals. if I was a station manager I would do it on principle. |
| 22:16.41 | tensai | fozzmoo: and I can't help but ignore them :) |
| 22:16.59 | fozzmoo | You can, but I think you'll find them interesting. |
| 22:17.04 | tensai | eightyeight: I don't want to believe it. nah, nah, nah. I'm not listening. |
| 22:19.43 | nicros | fozzmoo: what was the point of posting that? |
| 22:20.24 | fozzmoo | nicros: for your information. |
| 22:20.40 | elg | or perhaps your indoctrination |
| 22:21.07 | nicros | how a crack dealer like Glenn Beck got his own cable news show is beyond me. |
| 22:21.36 | fozzmoo | elg: If you look at those links, you will see that it's mostly just information passed on from the congressional reports, not agenda-driven opinion,. |
| 22:22.02 | fozzmoo | nicros: A crack dealer? |
| 22:22.04 | elg | trolling is more fun without the fact |
| 22:22.05 | elg | s |
| 22:22.08 | fozzmoo | nicros: Do you know something I don't? |
| 22:22.18 | nicros | yes... do a little research on Glen Beck.. |
| 22:22.53 | fozzmoo | Should I? |
| 22:23.26 | nicros | don't get me wrong.. i met the guy personally at the Stadium of Fire last year and I think he's an o.k. guy. |
| 22:23.58 | nicros | but i put his show and opinions right up there with Orah and Ricky Lake |
| 22:24.27 | fozzmoo | He's been pretty dead-on this last couple years. |
| 22:24.47 | fozzmoo | At the expense of his ratings. |
| 22:25.04 | fozzmoo | nobody *wants* to listen to gloom and doom. |
| 22:26.15 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: if that were the case, television news wouldn't exist |
| 22:26.26 | eightyeight | at least as we know it |
| 22:26.51 | eightyeight | "in other news, mrs. robinson baked a chocolate cake for her neighbor" |
| 22:27.11 | tensai | tv and radio news shows for the most part just makes me sick. useless bickering and complaining about how horribly the "other party" is doing. |
| 22:27.13 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: Good point. |
| 22:28.16 | fozzmoo | tensai: The exception with Glenn's shows is that he'll tell you how horribly "both parties" are doing. |
| 22:28.32 | fozzmoo | and that we need to "wake up" and take our country back. |
| 22:28.49 | tensai | fozzmoo: I watched a few episodes and didn't find it particularly uplifting. not as bad as many others, but not worth my time. |
| 22:29.17 | fozzmoo | Yeah- Hannity's new show is... whew. |
| 22:29.19 | eightyeight | i don't care for political talk spewing out of the media. what people fail to understand, is the media always gets the last word |
| 22:29.35 | fozzmoo | Well, I haven't really liked Mr. Hannity's radio show since 2004. |
| 22:30.00 | fozzmoo | So, it's no surprise I'm not fond of his new television spot. |
| 22:30.01 | eightyeight | callers call in, nail a topic dead on, then they get muted, and the host says his opinion, which is right btw, and moves to the next caller |
| 22:30.04 | eightyeight | lame |
| 22:30.44 | fozzmoo | One of my favorite radio programs is Dave Ramsey. That's uplifting. |
| 22:31.20 | fozzmoo | He's got a good thing going and more people should listen to him these days/daze. |
| 22:40.47 | sjansen | Whoa, Glen Beck wants to turn the earth into his own personal money spewing witches caldron. And he's so proud of it he advertises it on his own site! |
| 22:42.17 | sjansen | Why aren't Christians doing more to expose the warlock among us? |
| 22:42.56 | Sargun | http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-enterprise-47/prockcore-problems-urgent-623093/ |
| 22:42.57 | Sargun | HAHA |
| 22:52.03 | Jayce^ | grr, I need to map :q to close my terminal sessions, and other term apps... would be so much easier |
| 22:52.15 | jsmith | ~map Jayce^ |
| 22:53.04 | maquis | Jayce^: what about mapping 'ls' to '/names' in irssi? |
| 22:53.22 | Tene_ | alias :q=exit |
| 22:56.41 | tensai | I once set :wq="shutdown -h now" |
| 22:56.43 | tensai | bad idea |
| 22:58.43 | jsmith | tensai: Awesome... I've gotta play that trick on a co-worker |
| 23:02.54 | tensai | is there really any point to using aggresive mode ipsec? |
| 23:03.23 | tensai | and why do I always say "burp" when I burp? |
| 23:04.21 | fortyseventeen | I always say "oops" |
| 23:05.35 | fozzmoo | tensai: What do you mean? That when you burp, the sound that comes out of your mouth is "burp"? |
| 23:05.35 | tensai | I heard a story of a surgeon who trained himself to say "excellent" when he made mistakes. that way he didn't freak people out in the operating room. |
| 23:05.41 | tensai | fozzmoo: yes |
| 23:05.48 | fozzmoo | tensai: heh. |
| 23:06.49 | fozzmoo | Reminds me a joke my sister told me when I was a kid: Abscess makes your fart go "Honda!" |
| 23:20.11 | maquis | tensai: that's interesting |
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| 23:20.30 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 23:25.12 | tensai | eightyeight: there's still hope that dtv will happen soon rather than later. the spectrum opened up is worth a lot of $$$. it's looks bad politically that they're keeping spectrum away from first responders. |
| 23:25.27 | tensai | I mean really, if the dtv switch doesn't happen in february then the terrorists have won |
| 23:25.41 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:26.31 | eightyeight | don't get me wrong, it should have happened years ago |
| 23:26.47 | eightyeight | and i want it to happen sooner than later. i'm just pessimistic, given the history thus far |
| 23:27.52 | tensai | no doubt. and I don't blame you for being pessimistic given that this is congress. but if it finally boils down to money and terrorism, there's a chance that congress will actually care. |
| 23:28.10 | jsmith | Pro is to con as progress is to congress? |
| 23:28.13 | levi | Yeah, there really is a huge amount of money on the line here. |
| 23:28.31 | levi | jsmith: Indeed; it functions as designed. :) |
| 23:29.20 | jsmith | levi: That's too bad :-( |
| 23:29.40 | jsmith | levi: On the bright side, at least we don't get all the government we pay for! |
| 23:29.56 | tensai | jsmith: there it is! I knew you'd come through for me. |
| 23:30.09 | levi | Well, sometimes it's too bad, but generally it's a good thing that Congress doesn't get a lot done. |
| 23:30.56 | levi | I mean, what would the do if they did get things done? |
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| 23:31.51 | jsmith | levi: I know... luckily they've been spending a lot of time lately playing investigator instead of passing more laws |
| 23:32.01 | levi | Certainly, given what people think about a lot of the things they *do* accomplish, even more would not be such a great thing. |
| 23:32.30 | jsmith | I think it's telling that their approval rating was lower (as a group) than Pres. Bush. |
| 23:33.43 | levi | It's telling, but I think it takes a bit of consideration to work out exactly what it's telling us. |
| 23:33.48 | tensai | jsmith: exactly my feelings. bunch of spineless ninnies. |
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| 23:47.09 | sjansen | The problem with looking at the approval rating is that most people are dissatisfied with the other guy's representative. |
| 23:48.05 | sjansen | Sure, some of recognize that Hatch is a crazy old coot, but it's in Utah's best interest to look the other way and re-elect him anyway. |
| 23:48.55 | jsmith | sjansen: It is? |
| 23:49.22 | jsmith | sjansen: Just because he'll get more pork for Utah? |
| 23:49.41 | sjansen | And maybe keep nuclear waste out. |
| 23:50.18 | jsmith | wonders what Hatch's half-life is |
| 23:51.18 | jsmith | And with that, I'm outta here... |
| 23:54.06 | fozzmoo | I don't really understand people's opposition to nuclear waste in Utah. |
| 23:54.32 | fozzmoo | I mean, Utah, Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico: All great places to store nuke waste. |
| 23:54.42 | Tene_ | also |
| 23:54.52 | high_roller | worked on the nuclear repository in Nevada |
| 23:55.31 | fozzmoo | I've heard that all the nuclear waste ever would only fill up the space of a high school gymnasium. |
| 23:59.54 | high_roller | its a bit more than that |
