| 06:09.14 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 06:09.14 | *** topic/#utah is http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | IRC: now with employee pricing! |
| 06:09.14 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 06:09.31 | jessie | ibot |
| 06:09.42 | tensai | ~wb |
| 06:09.43 | ibot | thx |
| 06:09.56 | jessie | when's the next meeting? |
| 06:10.02 | jessie | Second Wednesday's, rigth? |
| 06:10.06 | jessie | *right? |
| 06:10.09 | tensai | plug? |
| 06:11.21 | *** join/#utah On0bi (n=danny@75-169-252-2.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 06:11.34 | jessie | Yes. Sorry, I forgot this is a utah channel, not just PLUG |
| 06:12.03 | On0bi | utah |
| 06:12.55 | tensai | second wednesday sounds right to me |
| 06:13.31 | jessie | Sounds good. And where's Timponogus Circle at in Orem? |
| 06:14.39 | tensai | http://www.omniture.com/en/contact/map/orem |
| 06:15.34 | jessie | Awesome! I hope to be at the next meeting.... :) |
| 06:21.44 | Tene | February plug is on git, right? |
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| 09:01.59 | tensai | ~lart power failures |
| 09:02.00 | ibot | takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down power failures's throat until power failures puts on 150lbs |
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| 15:00.13 | eightyeight | c'mon byu and utah. we're better than this: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090124/1312413519.shtml |
| 15:00.15 | brac | [BYU Says Video Games Are Very, Very, Very Bad For You | Techdirt] |
| 15:02.45 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-663299b6563f16ec) |
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| 15:03.07 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 15:05.54 | ^Migs^ | that poor "Student Alex Jensen"...got swept into the whole nonsense |
| 15:08.06 | eightyeight | first, the fact there's a "study" right before legislation that just "happens" to fall in line with the politician pushing it |
| 15:08.33 | eightyeight | then the fact that they've ignored all previous research on the subject, and came to their own conclusion |
| 15:08.45 | eightyeight | meh. i need better news |
| 15:09.07 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | IRC: now with better news! |
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| 16:20.28 | whiteinge | heh. "those who play video games daily smoke pot twice as much as other players and three times more than those who never play" |
| 16:21.21 | On0bi | it's true |
| 16:21.32 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-f1e65400a181ba80) |
| 16:21.32 | On0bi | i can atest to that |
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| 16:27.47 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
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| 16:59.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:59.33 | elg | -chat it up |
| 16:59.33 | brac | it up ages ago, though, and I've been missing since my homemade coat hanger antenna without amplifier leaves it in shell, you would see in LA, dallas, chicago, etc |
| 17:05.34 | *** join/#utah bismark90 (n=bismark9@128.187.181.79) |
| 17:23.58 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-58-214.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 17:29.21 | elg | -lart sjansen |
| 17:29.22 | brac | straps sjansen to a chair, and plays a endless low bitrate MP3 loop of "the world's most annoying sound" from "Dumb and Dumber" |
| 17:32.21 | unum | updates his manager's email address in trac |
| 17:32.29 | unum | I have too many projects in trac |
| 17:33.35 | sjansen | Well, that's gratitude for you. |
| 17:33.39 | sjansen | Harumph. |
| 17:33.45 | sjansen | takes his ball and goes home |
| 17:34.18 | sjansen | lashes out at those around him |
| 17:34.20 | sjansen | ~lart emcnabb |
| 17:34.20 | ibot | stabs emcnabb |
| 17:35.03 | emcnabb | sjansen, don't you have something better to do that lart me right now? |
| 17:35.30 | sjansen | Why yes, yes I do. For example, I could... |
| 17:35.36 | sjansen | ~bzfrag emcnabb |
| 17:35.37 | ibot | ACTION tries to kill emcnabb, but emcnabb finds the shield flag |
| 17:35.45 | sjansen | Curse you emcnabb! |
| 17:36.11 | fozzmoo | http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Foden20090126-Gitmo20090124040421.jpg |
| 17:36.12 | sjansen | ~steal emcnabb's shield flag |
| 17:36.12 | ibot | ACTION grabs emcnabb's shield flag and gives it to sjansen |
| 17:36.16 | sjansen | ~bzfrag emcnabb |
| 17:36.17 | ibot | ACTION squishes emcnabb with a steamroller |
| 17:36.17 | emcnabb | sjansen, oh my |
| 17:37.08 | sjansen | fozzmoo: I agree. We'd all be much better of with a president who ignores the rule of law. |
| 17:37.19 | emcnabb | ~attitude_adjustment sjansen |
| 17:37.35 | fozzmoo | ~poke sjansen |
| 17:37.36 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind sjansen, pokes sjansen repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 17:37.49 | sjansen | If only Bush had the courage to lead a coup instead of sitting idling by watching a lesser man be inaugurated. |
| 17:37.57 | fozzmoo | ~poke sjansen |
| 17:37.58 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind sjansen, pokes sjansen repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 17:38.36 | fozzmoo | ~poke sjansen |
| 17:38.36 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind sjansen, pokes sjansen repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 17:38.45 | unum | sjansen: the real problem is that we've now made these people's positions stronger by imprisoning and torturing them |
| 17:38.59 | unum | if bush hadn't gone out and done that it would be much less of an issue |
| 17:39.04 | sjansen | Ya vol, mein fozzmoo! |
| 17:39.04 | fozzmoo | tries to hold a straight face. |
| 17:39.31 | unum | and as of yet we don't know that any of them are going to be released, but that they'll be held as prisoners of war with access to the red cross |
| 17:40.04 | elg | anyone here feel confident with big-O and want to look something over for me? |
| 17:40.30 | unum | it's NP-HARD |
| 17:40.34 | unum | :) |
| 17:40.47 | sjansen | Big O? As in Obama or Oprah? :-P |
| 17:40.47 | elg | no problem-hard? |
| 17:40.59 | elg | i think oprah takes the big there |
| 17:42.10 | unum | elg: what's the question? |
| 17:43.08 | elg | just want to double check my analysis make sure i'm not off track |
| 17:43.17 | elg | i'll pastebin it |
| 17:44.41 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@74.81.244.222) |
| 17:44.41 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 17:46.31 | elg | http://pastie.org/371223 |
| 17:49.18 | fugue88 | Working with music? |
| 17:50.36 | *** join/#utah jshipley (n=jshipley@ip67-88-113-150.z113-88-67.customer.algx.net) |
| 17:51.26 | fugue88 | elg, what's the Q on the first line? Is it a factor, ie Q*f_s/f_0? |
| 17:52.13 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 17:52.21 | *** join/#utah markl_ (n=mark@c-67-186-245-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:53.12 | elg | Q is a constant. well, it's related to the 12 in 2^(1/12) but i'm holding both constant |
| 17:53.16 | sjansen | emcnabb: BYU CS not longer requires Physics 220! I want my money back! |
| 17:53.26 | emcnabb | sjansen, wow |
| 17:53.30 | emcnabb | that sucks |
| 17:53.34 | emcnabb | I want them to suffer too |
| 17:53.35 | sjansen | http://cs.byu.edu/undergraduate |
| 17:53.37 | fugue88 | elg, looks correct to me. |
| 17:53.47 | elg | thanks |
| 17:54.01 | *** join/#utah eggyknap (n=jtolley@67.171.126.25) |
| 17:54.14 | elg | and yes, it's working with music |
| 17:54.25 | elg | this is for a constant-Q transform, which gives you a log-frequency spectrogram |
| 17:55.21 | fugue88 | Tuned to mean-temperment no less. I had an idea (many moons ago) to let a computer loose on an audio file to figure out sheet music to match it. |
| 17:55.26 | fugue88 | Some day.... |
| 17:56.15 | elg | automatic transcription |
| 17:56.25 | elg | the holy grail in computer music, if you will. :) lots of fun research in that area |
| 17:56.32 | sjansen | emcnabb: When are you going to be in Utah again? We can egg the Dean's house together. |
| 17:56.32 | fugue88 | Exacto. |
| 17:56.45 | emcnabb | sjansen, :-) |
| 17:56.52 | emcnabb | Lisa's actually out there this week |
| 17:56.57 | emcnabb | she can do it for me |
| 17:57.01 | elg | lisa can handle an egg |
| 17:57.12 | high_roller | emcnabb: does lisa want to come and visit here? |
| 17:57.31 | elg | she's been here before. poor emcnabb is still recovering |
| 17:57.47 | emcnabb | high_roller, heath, is that you? |
| 17:58.08 | emcnabb | heath the TAM? |
| 17:58.11 | high_roller | emcnabb: yes |
| 17:58.15 | elg | -lart emcnabb |
| 17:58.15 | brac | counts "1, 2, 5... er... 3!" and hurls the Holy Handgrenade Of Antioch at emcnabb |
| 17:58.19 | emcnabb | high_roller, wow |
| 17:58.24 | emcnabb | elg-- |
| 17:58.24 | levi | Sweet, Factor has XML literal syntax now. |
| 17:58.33 | elg | is that a good thing? |
| 17:58.39 | goozbach | ~elg-- |
| 17:58.44 | goozbach | remember your tilde! |
| 17:58.47 | goozbach | geez |
| 17:58.48 | elg | ~goozbach+- |
| 17:58.52 | goozbach | ~karma elg |
| 17:58.52 | ibot | elg has neutral karma |
| 17:58.56 | sjansen | Anything that makes processing XML less sucky is a good thing. |
| 17:59.00 | emcnabb | goozbach, I never do anything on #utah these days |
| 17:59.06 | emcnabb | how am I supposed to know? |
| 17:59.11 | goozbach | ~karma goozbach |
| 17:59.11 | ibot | goozbach has neutral karma |
| 17:59.14 | goozbach | hmm |
| 17:59.15 | elg | ~karma goozbach |
| 17:59.15 | ibot | goozbach has neutral karma |
| 17:59.19 | elg | ~karma mheath |
| 17:59.19 | ibot | mheath has neutral karma |
| 17:59.24 | elg | ~karma TimRiker |
| 17:59.24 | ibot | timriker has karma of 20 |
| 17:59.26 | levi | http://useless-factor.blogspot.com/2009/01/factor-supports-xml-literal-syntax.html |
| 17:59.33 | goozbach | ~karma jsmith |
| 17:59.33 | ibot | jsmith has karma of 13 |
| 17:59.50 | emcnabb | ~goozbach-- |
| 17:59.58 | emcnabb | ~karma goozbach |
| 17:59.58 | ibot | goozbach has karma of -1 |
| 17:59.59 | jsmith | goozbach: Wow... I didn't know I was all that and a bag of chips |
| 18:00.03 | elg | i love the not-quite-xml open and close tags |
| 18:00.10 | *** join/#utah [1]Pwned9080 (n=Pwned908@71-35-196-84.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:00.12 | elg | ~steal jsmith's chips |
| 18:00.13 | ibot | ACTION grabs jsmith's chips and gives it to elg |
| 18:00.19 | *** join/#utah glenpeck (n=dcarter@nat-67.cimedia.com) |
| 18:00.31 | glenpeck | ~goozbach++ |
| 18:00.34 | *** join/#utah bismark90 (n=bismark9@128.187.189.6) |
| 18:00.35 | jsmith | elg: Ugh... those be ugly tags |
| 18:01.06 | goozbach | ~karma goozbach |
| 18:01.06 | ibot | goozbach has neutral karma |
| 18:01.17 | goozbach | all for naught |
| 18:01.19 | goozbach | bugger |
| 18:01.31 | jsmith | elg: And I don't mind if you eat my chips... I've already had two lunches :-p |
| 18:01.38 | sjansen | You know, at first I though break beats were gimmicky, but the more I listen to the 'em the more I enjoy 'em. |
| 18:02.02 | sjansen | ~steal jsmith's bag of chips |
| 18:02.03 | ibot | ACTION grabs jsmith's bag of chips and gives it to sjansen |
| 18:03.08 | unum | so let's say you wanted a cron job to run every other week |
| 18:03.11 | unum | how would you do it |
| 18:03.23 | goozbach | unum: put it in /etc/cron.weekly |
| 18:03.39 | goozbach | make it touch a file when it runs sucessfully, |
| 18:03.42 | elg | unum: write a cron job that runs every week and flips a persistent bit before deciding whether to do its job? |
| 18:04.03 | goozbach | make it test to see if the file exists, and if so, rm's the file and exits |
| 18:04.11 | unum | thanks |
| 18:04.20 | elg | calculate the number of minutes in a week and use it in the minute field? would that work? |
| 18:04.43 | goozbach | elg, no |
| 18:04.50 | goozbach | mins cannot be more than 60 |
| 18:05.04 | elg | sounds like our bit flip is the way to go then |
| 18:06.01 | sjansen | unum: If the day of week doesn't matter, and fudging a little is okay, run it on the 1st and 15th of every month. |
| 18:06.04 | unum | sounds like it |
| 18:06.13 | goozbach | you could do day of month |
| 18:06.16 | unum | sjansen: I'm afraid that all matters |
| 18:06.24 | unum | it's based off of pay period |
| 18:06.33 | unum | and needs to be email the first day of the pay period |
| 18:06.44 | elg | what about holidays? |
| 18:07.08 | unum | they are included in the two week period |
| 18:07.10 | goozbach | Day of week = 7, day of month=1-7, 14-21 |
| 18:07.14 | goozbach | maybe |
| 18:07.20 | unum | and it's just as well that the data gets emailed on a holiday |
| 18:08.09 | unum | some times it needs to be emailed three times a month |
| 18:09.04 | sjansen | goozbach: Remember that day of week is or'd with day of month so the job would run too often. |
| 18:12.02 | sjansen | unum: Your best bet is to run it daily and check if anything is pending. |
| 18:12.58 | goozbach | dangit |
| 18:13.01 | goozbach | that's right |
| 18:13.03 | sjansen | For something important like payroll, I'd hate for cron to be down at just the wrong moment, hence avoiding getting fancy an only running once a week. |
| 18:13.13 | goozbach | ~sjansen++ |
| 18:13.19 | sjansen | In fact, probably a good idea to include an anacron backup. |
| 18:40.19 | levi | elg: The <XML and XML> things aren't pseudo-tags, they're parsing words that bracket the chunk that should be parsed using the xml parser. |
| 18:40.19 | brac | howdy levi! |
| 18:41.13 | elg | levi: right, and they look like half-baked xml tags |
| 18:41.15 | elg | which is amusing |
| 18:41.36 | elg | could their parser not use <XML> and </XML> just as easily? maybe that would give a little confusion, but it would be more xml-y |
| 18:42.05 | levi | Well, you could actually make them look like full xml tags if you wanted, but the point is they're not in the XML parser yet, so they should look more like parsing words than XML tags. |
| 18:51.53 | Sargun | Damn, I wish my Nokia N810 got repaired |
| 18:52.01 | Sargun | it's been "waiting for parts" for a week nearly. |
| 18:52.06 | jsmith | Sargun: What'd you do to it? |
| 18:52.25 | Sargun | jshipley, touch screen failed. |
| 18:52.46 | jsmith | Sargun: Sorry to hear that... hope mine doesn't fail |
| 18:53.03 | fozzmoo | jsmith: Like your video? |
| 18:53.07 | Sargun | the issue where if there is too much temperature fluctuation, condensation, etc... it causes the screen to fail in various aays. |
| 18:53.08 | Sargun | ways |
| 18:53.30 | lakshmi | aka backpack fail? |
| 18:53.39 | Sargun | lakshmi, nevermind. |
| 18:53.44 | jsmith | fozzmoo: I've only seen the first ten minutes... then I got sick of watching myself, and went on to other things |
| 18:53.51 | fozzmoo | jsmith: heh. |
| 18:54.09 | jsmith | fozzmoo: (I really can't stand to watch myself on video... it literally makes me nauseous for some reason) |
| 18:54.32 | fozzmoo | Me too. I can't stand watching you either. ;-) |
| 18:55.12 | jsmith | fozzmoo: At least you're honest about it |
| 18:55.19 | jsmith | fozzmoo: (and why was I so hyper that day?) |
| 18:55.40 | fozzmoo | Lots of schwag. |
| 18:55.55 | goozbach | jsmith: did you drink the mt dew? |
| 18:56.17 | jsmith | goozbach: Nope... |
| 18:56.32 | *** part/#utah lakshmi (n=lakshmi@75-25-129-78.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:56.35 | goozbach | cause I spiked it with speed |
| 18:56.49 | *** join/#utah gshipley (n=gshipley@nat/redhat/x-da624fe41269d5c5) |
| 19:01.50 | ^Migs^ | http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/01/chicago-teen-im.html |
| 19:13.55 | mrpull | ^Migs^: when I was a kid, Police Quest satisfied that urge |
| 19:14.05 | ^Migs^ | I loved Police Quest |
| 19:14.08 | mrpull | but I hated driving that car around... too fast or too slow |
| 19:14.09 | ^Migs^ | I only finished #1 though |
| 19:14.25 | mrpull | KQ, SQ, LLL |
| 19:14.27 | mrpull | gold |
| 19:14.27 | ^Migs^ | I played the rest later on, but never finished |
| 19:14.35 | ^Migs^ | Police Quest: Swat doesn't count |
| 19:14.56 | ^Migs^ | Don't forget QFG |
| 19:15.03 | ^Migs^ | that was arguably the best |
| 19:15.55 | mrpull | I never played that through |
| 19:16.00 | ^Migs^ | :O |
| 19:16.05 | mrpull | was that after they ditched the text parser? |
| 19:16.21 | mrpull | the point and click interface was never as cool as the joystick + text (for me) |
| 19:16.47 | ^Migs^ | QFG 1 and 2 used the text parser originally. a VGA remake of QFG1 came out which was point-and-click. And just last summer, a VGA remake of QFG2 came out. I replayed through the whole series last September when that came out. |
| 19:16.48 | mrpull | I guess I played one of the first Hero's Quests |
| 19:17.05 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I loved the old text parser games, but point-and-click has its place too |
| 19:17.27 | mrpull | checks for Sierra emulators/remakes for iPhone |
| 19:17.39 | ^Migs^ | I have to say, QFG5 is kind of a letdown after seeing the lush artwork in QFG4 |
| 19:17.52 | ^Migs^ | but check here for QFG2 remake: http://www.agdinteractive.com |
| 19:17.55 | ^Migs^ | beautifully done |
| 19:17.57 | brac | [AGDInteractive Studio] |
| 19:18.25 | ^Migs^ | they did remakes of King's Quest 1 and 2 as well. In KQ2 they rewrote the entire story, added music, speech, etc. |
| 19:18.57 | ^Migs^ | crap, now I want to play King's Quest again |
| 19:19.13 | ^Migs^ | and here's a remake of KQ3: http://www.infamous-adventures.com/kq3/ |
| 19:19.16 | brac | [Infamous Adventures] |
| 19:21.54 | mrpull | I never played the Monkey Island games... maybe I'll have to try the Scumm VM for iPhone |
| 19:22.10 | tensai | jsmith: I watched the whole video and didn't think you were any more weird than you normally are |
| 19:22.22 | tensai | is just glad they didn't video his presentation |
| 19:22.41 | *** join/#utah MrTeye (n=Tyler@63-253-38-194.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 19:23.26 | ^Migs^ | I never did play Monkey Island 4 |
| 19:23.30 | ^Migs^ | and I only vaguely remember the others |
| 19:23.34 | ^Migs^ | guess it's time to play them all |
| 19:27.07 | *** join/#utah bismark90 (n=bismark9@otherlab.cs.byu.edu) |
| 19:32.37 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 19:38.22 | jshipley | I agree that the quality of the agdi games are excellent. They like to stay really close to the originals, although they do add little things here and there, and they are beautiful remakes. |
| 19:38.58 | jshipley | If you're looking for some independent adventure games, http://adventuregamestudio.co.uk is a good place to look |
| 19:39.30 | jshipley | The agdi, and I believe the infamous-adventures games are both created using adventuregamestudio |
| 19:39.37 | ^Migs^ | yeah |
| 19:39.40 | ^Migs^ | they are |
| 19:39.44 | ^Migs^ | as well as tons of other great ones |
| 19:39.50 | ^Migs^ | I used to hang out on those forums all the time |
| 19:40.15 | ^Migs^ | they even have their own annual Awards |
| 19:40.34 | jshipley | the game of the month is usually pretty good as well |
| 19:41.36 | ^Migs^ | I haven't even played an AGS game in quite awhile...might have to find a new one. The last one I did was A Tale of Two Kingdoms...awesome, awesome game |
| 19:42.50 | jshipley | Have you tried Trilby: The Art Of Theft? |
| 19:43.02 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 19:43.08 | jshipley | it's not an adventure game, but it's made with ags and it's pretty fun. |
| 19:43.32 | jshipley | "Adventures in the Galaxy of Fantabulous Wonderment" was also a really fun game |
| 19:43.52 | ^Migs^ | i don't think I finished that one |
| 19:44.28 | ^Migs^ | I've played the other Trilby games...5DAS, 7DAS, and part of Trilby's Notes |
| 19:44.28 | ^Migs^ | I'll check out Art Of Theft...it's a platformer-type thing, isn't it? |
| 19:44.44 | jshipley | I really enjoyed those as well, but they did get kind of weird |
| 19:45.06 | jshipley | yeah, I think that it comes before the others, chronologically |
| 19:45.24 | jshipley | you're Trilby, and you have to burgle a bunch of houses |
| 19:46.09 | ^Migs^ | yeah they were pretty weird...did a very good job creating a scary atmosphere, though |
| 19:46.42 | jshipley | I should play through those again sometime |
| 19:46.45 | ^Migs^ | also, check out Enclosure here if you haven't already: http://home.deds.nl/~femo/ |
| 19:47.04 | ^Migs^ | it's an EGA-style game with a text parser, but it's extremely good |
| 19:47.36 | ^Migs^ | trailer here: http://home.deds.nl/~femo/enclosure.htm |
| 19:48.19 | jshipley | I'll check it out |
| 19:48.50 | ^Migs^ | I don't really play text parser games anymore, but this one was worth it |
| 19:51.10 | jshipley | I've played some games with a text parser, but most of the text parser games I've played didn't have any graphics (games like Zork, and MUDs) |
| 19:51.49 | ^Migs^ | I used to play MUDs and stuff all the time, but I don't think I have patience for them much anymore |
| 19:52.21 | jshipley | I don't think that I'd really have time for MUDs anymore |
| 19:54.37 | ^Migs^ | me neither |
| 19:54.52 | ^Migs^ | have you played the Apprentice games? http://www.herculeaneffort.com |
| 19:54.53 | brac | [Herculean Effort Productions - It's not easy being the best!] |
| 19:55.02 | Supaplex | !mmorpg muds |
| 19:55.09 | Supaplex | ~mmorpg muds |
| 19:55.10 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at muds for a total of 185 damage! |
| 19:57.13 | ^Migs^ | ~mmorpg Supaplexc |
| 19:57.13 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at Supaplexc for a total of 387 damage! |
| 19:57.19 | ^Migs^ | whoohoo 387 damage! |
| 19:57.37 | Supaplex | you missed. :P |
| 19:57.41 | Supaplex | ~mmorpg ^Migs^ |
| 19:57.42 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at ^Migs^ for a total of 958 damage! |
| 19:58.03 | ^Migs^ | ~mmorpg Supaplex |
| 19:58.04 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at Supaplex for a total of 348 damage! |
| 19:58.07 | ^Migs^ | crap |
| 19:58.09 | ^Migs^ | you're winning |
| 19:58.26 | Supaplex | ~mmorpg ^Migs^ |
| 19:58.27 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at ^Migs^ for a total of 774 damage! |
| 19:58.43 | Supaplex | wahooo :D |
| 19:59.07 | ^Migs^ | ~mmorpg Supaplex |
| 19:59.08 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at Supaplex for a total of 828 damage! |
| 19:59.28 | ^Migs^ | oo, closing the gap |
| 19:59.46 | Supaplex | ~mmorpg ^Migs^ keyboard |
| 19:59.47 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at ^Migs^ keyboard for a total of 214 damage! |
| 20:00.11 | ^Migs^ | good thing I have a backup keyboard |
| 20:00.12 | ^Migs^ | ~mmorpg Supaplex |
| 20:00.13 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at Supaplex for a total of 377 damage! |
| 20:00.41 | Supaplex | ~mmorpg ^Migs^ fingers |
| 20:00.41 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at ^Migs^ fingers for a total of 664 damage! |
| 20:00.59 | ^Migs^ | good thing I always type with my toes |
| 20:01.01 | ^Migs^ | ~mmorpg Supaplex |
| 20:01.02 | ibot | ACTION fires off a few Massively Mobile Offensive Rocket Propelled Grenades at Supaplex for a total of 711 damage! |
| 20:01.04 | Supaplex | got any backup fingers? :P |
| 20:01.47 | ^Migs^ | how many hit points do we have? |
| 20:02.19 | ^Migs^ | I've taken 2610 damage so far |
| 20:02.20 | Supaplex | I dunno. I never thought someone would go this far with my action factoid :) |
| 20:02.52 | ^Migs^ | you've taken 2264 |
| 20:02.55 | ^Migs^ | I guess you win |
| 20:03.03 | ^Migs^ | BUT I'LL BE BACK! |
| 20:03.08 | ^Migs^ | AND MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE! |
| 20:03.35 | Supaplex | I'll imagine 1 hp, just to make it easy for you. :-p |
| 20:26.50 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | IRC: Rolling a d20 saving throw against boredom. |
| 20:28.41 | sjansen | ~d20 |
| 20:28.42 | ibot | 9 |
| 20:29.03 | sjansen | ~d20 |
| 20:29.03 | ibot | 14 |
| 20:29.08 | sjansen | ~d56 |
| 20:29.16 | goozbach | ~d2 |
| 20:29.17 | ibot | [d2] 1 or 2 |
| 20:29.32 | goozbach | so it landed on it's edge?/ |
| 20:29.34 | sjansen | ibot: No, d2 is <reply> r2 |
| 20:29.35 | ibot | okay, sjansen |
| 20:29.45 | goozbach | ~d2 |
| 20:29.46 | ibot | r2 |
| 20:30.00 | goozbach | ~2d10 |
| 20:30.04 | sjansen | Get it? Get it? I kill me! |
| 20:30.14 | goozbach | sjansen: very funny |
| 20:31.20 | sjansen | gasps for breath, struggling to stop laughing |
| 20:33.48 | sjansen | dies of asphyxiation |
| 20:34.11 | levi | eightyeight: You are a sick man. |
| 20:34.40 | eightyeight | creative, eh? |
| 20:34.40 | sjansen | Get it? Get it? Asphyxiation! |
| 20:34.53 | sjansen | starts the cycle over again |
| 20:35.07 | levi | eightyeight: I can't see any of the images, though. |
| 20:35.36 | eightyeight | it seems i'm under a bit of a heavy load right now. now sure why |
| 20:36.05 | levi | Perhaps Digg is laughing at you. ;) |
| 20:36.20 | eightyeight | i sure hope not. i hate that service |
| 20:36.33 | levi | Who doesn't hate Digg? |
| 20:36.39 | *** join/#utah Tene (n=tene@pleasedieinafire.net) |
| 20:36.39 | brac | uses Tene's debian cds for skeet shooting practice |
| 20:36.51 | eightyeight | reprhrase: i hate people putting posts from lowly blogs on that service |
| 20:37.27 | *** join/#utah tharmor (n=tharmor@fw.oremut02.us.wh.verio.net) |
| 20:37.44 | levi | Ahh, I finally got them to load. |
| 20:38.19 | ^Migs^ | howtf do you set margins in MS Office? |
| 20:38.34 | levi | Ask clippy. |
| 20:39.23 | ^Migs^ | nm, found it in File->Page Setup. What do margins have to do with File anyway? |
| 20:39.53 | levi | I don't think 'File' means anything anymore, really. |
| 20:39.57 | sjansen | ^Migs^: yum remove 'Microsoft*' && yum install abiword |
| 20:46.39 | levi | Does anyone use abiword? |
| 20:47.45 | Supaplex | OOo here |
| 20:50.00 | ^Migs^ | same here |
| 20:56.49 | Heartsbane | ~rlart |
| 20:56.50 | ibot | blames Technoviking for all the evil in the world |
| 20:56.52 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Someday I'm going to add together the days of life I've lost building Perl packages, then I'm going to send a bill to Larry Wall. |
| 20:58.02 | Tene | And if he diffs it against the maintenance pain of some other common languages and sends you a return bill? |
| 20:59.40 | Supaplex | ~blame darkness |
| 20:59.41 | ibot | ACTION blames darkness (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 20:59.48 | sjansen | TIMTOWTDI is an interesting idea for a language, but a horrible idea for a library system. |
| 21:01.18 | sjansen | For example, Perl has some great Test:: libraries, pick a subset, officially recommend there use, and standardize there inclusion with a version of Perl. |
| 21:01.27 | sjansen | s/there/their/ |
| 21:03.04 | Technoviking | think ibot is annoying |
| 21:03.31 | eightyeight | heh. using google chrome on windows xp, and when i visit http://comcast.net, it redirects me to http://www.comcast.net/browserupgrade telling my my browser is out of date, and i need to upgrade. :) |
| 21:04.24 | levi | eightyeight: Hey, I thought you didn't use proprietary software. ;) |
| 21:04.30 | Supaplex | uses useragent switcher, or a real isp in these situations. ;) |
| 21:04.42 | eightyeight | unfortunately, i'm developing a web site, and i have to test it with ie 7 |
| 21:05.07 | eightyeight | but, it's in a vm on ubuntu, if that makes any difference. and i am browsing with chrome... |
| 21:05.10 | ^Migs^ | I hate that I have to use so many browsers when I develop sites |
| 21:05.14 | levi | This book looks interesting: http://www.amazon.com/How-We-Decide-Jonah-Lehrer/dp/0618620117/ |
| 21:05.25 | ^Migs^ | I test against IE6, IE7, and Firefox |
| 21:05.30 | ^Migs^ | soon I'll have to test against IE8, too |
| 21:05.33 | ^Migs^ | that's just stupid |
| 21:05.33 | levi | eightyeight: Chrome on Windows is my standard web browsing environment these days. |
| 21:05.40 | ^Migs^ | three IE browsers need to be tested against? |
| 21:05.45 | Supaplex | webkit++ |
| 21:05.48 | levi | I won't fault anyone for using Windows. |
| 21:05.51 | eightyeight | i've dropped 6. it's 7 years old, and only holds like 40% or less market share |
| 21:06.03 | eightyeight | ie7 is already 4 years old |
| 21:06.06 | levi | Only 40%, eh? |
| 21:06.18 | levi | That's kind of a big chunk. |
| 21:06.22 | ^Migs^ | it's more like about 70% with my users |
| 21:06.40 | ^Migs^ | is IE7 already 4 years old? |
| 21:06.41 | eightyeight | http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp |
| 21:06.42 | brac | [Browser Statistics] |
| 21:06.50 | eightyeight | 19.6 there |
| 21:06.53 | levi | Time marches on. |
| 21:06.55 | ^Migs^ | it can't be that old |
| 21:07.01 | ^Migs^ | more like 2 years |
| 21:07.05 | eightyeight | good enough for me. ie6 is a dead browser for all i care |
| 21:07.41 | ^Migs^ | I said it's 70% with MY users |
| 21:08.02 | eightyeight | i'm not developing a site for your users |
| 21:08.16 | ^Migs^ | nor do I expect you to |
| 21:09.23 | Supaplex | yeah. ^Migs^ needs his own job. :) |
| 21:09.43 | ^Migs^ | I don't think anyone here is really gunning for my job |
| 21:11.16 | tharmor | depends on your hours and pay ;) |
| 21:11.27 | eightyeight | i guess it was released oct 2006. so, 2.5 years old. still. old |
| 21:11.58 | levi | Was it out longer in beta or something? Or is that when the beta was out? |
| 21:12.44 | eightyeight | the first beta was released july 2005 |
| 21:15.35 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 21:15.39 | sjansen | ^Migs^: Why IE6? Anybody still using IE6 gets what they deserve. |
| 21:16.31 | tensai | we still have people using ie5 for mac |
| 21:16.47 | eightyeight | the only ones i'm aware of using ie6, are corporate intranets |
| 21:16.50 | tensai | it's like they're trying to inflict the most pain possible |
| 21:16.53 | sjansen | tensai: And I'm sure they've gotten used to the Web being broken and looking bad. |
| 21:17.17 | eightyeight | ie7 was pushed as a mandatory update to all supported windows installs. if update is on, you got it |
| 21:17.18 | tensai | sjansen: you'd think, but they still call in the complain about webmail not working |
| 21:17.20 | sjansen | IE on Mac was a great browser, for the time. First one to bother implementing CSS correctly. |
| 21:18.21 | eightyeight | that's why i don't care for 6. it's a dead browser |
| 21:18.53 | sjansen | Everyone gives MS a hard time for ignoring standards, but IE Mac was actually the first to pay attention to standards. Sadly, it used a different engine than IE on Windows so we all ending up getting stuck with a steaming pile of IE6. |
| 21:19.31 | sjansen | tensai: You're an ISP. Aren't supposed to just tell them you don't care and their bill is being increased as punishment? |
| 21:22.19 | eightyeight | when chrome releases on linux, goodbye firefox |
| 21:23.01 | sjansen | When Chrome has all the good Firefox plugins, goodbye FF. Not before. |
| 21:23.42 | eightyeight | the only extension i'll miss is adblock |
| 21:23.43 | sjansen | can't live without AdBlock+, FlashBlock and LeechBlock |
| 21:24.11 | eightyeight | flashblock is annoying, although good. never got into leechblock |
| 21:24.41 | eightyeight | noscript is another annoying but good extension |
| 21:25.24 | sjansen | Haven't decided about Better Privacy, but I like the theory at least. |
| 21:25.44 | sjansen | And if you start talking about Web developer tools, FF has an even bigger lead. |
| 21:26.03 | eightyeight | yeah. firebug and web developer are must haves |
| 21:26.53 | eightyeight | i'm just tired of a tab taking down the browser. or my memory footprint exeeding 512MB |
| 21:27.16 | eightyeight | i find really annoyng the extra mouse clicks they've put everywhere too, like about:config and the self-signed certs |
| 21:40.34 | jshipley | I've liked firefox since it was phoenix, and mozilla before that, but I've been looking around recently for a good replacement |
| 21:41.13 | jshipley | it's the plugins that keep me with firefox more than anything else though. when chrome has good linux support, better bookmarks, and good plugins, I'll really look into switching |
| 21:41.15 | ^Migs^ | sjansen: The problem is many of our employees still use IE6 |
| 21:42.07 | jshipley | If I was web programming, I'd want to write standards-compliant web pages... even if it does end up weird on IE |
| 21:42.20 | jshipley | that's probably a big part of the reason why I'm not web programming :) |
| 21:42.49 | sjansen | ^Migs^: At home or work? If at home, explain to them that in these tough economic times their continued employment depends on upgrading to a decent browser. If at work, beat up IT until they get their lazy butts in gear. |
| 21:43.25 | ^Migs^ | at work |
| 21:43.30 | tensai | I upgraded a friend from IE6 to FF3 and they love it. IE was constantly kicking their dialup offline. |
| 21:43.47 | ^Migs^ | and this is in our individual schools |
| 21:43.57 | ^Migs^ | we don't have the manpower to make sure they all upgrade to IE7 |
| 21:43.58 | sjansen | ^Migs^: Can you really afford to continue supporting IE6? |
| 21:44.12 | jshipley | has anybody used epiphany much? |
| 21:44.16 | ^Migs^ | generally if something breaks and a tech has to go help them with IE, they'll just upgrade it anyway |
| 21:44.51 | ^Migs^ | and really we have to go through the individual school administration, and rely on them to relay any tech messages. Most principals aren't that technical in the first place, so they won't do it |
| 21:44.58 | tensai | jshipley: tried it once, but just briefly |
| 21:45.09 | ^Migs^ | I think you underestimate how woefully untechnological the public education system is |
| 21:45.09 | tensai | back in the day I was a big Galeon fan. anybody remember that one? |
| 21:45.18 | sjansen | Based on my experience, supporting IE6 can easily triple costs. That's just insane. |
| 21:45.55 | jshipley | I used Galeon a bit, it seemed decent |
| 21:45.59 | tensai | sjansen: upgrading would be a big up-front cost |
| 21:46.36 | jshipley | too bad you can't just give the users some basic instruction on how to run a windows upgrade |
| 21:46.53 | tensai | but continuing with the status quo spreads the cost out as little service calls, which probably add up to more than the upgrade would be |
| 21:46.58 | levi | I used Galeon for a while. |
| 21:46.58 | sjansen | <!--[if lt IE 7]>You suck. If you don't upgrade from IE6, you're fired.<![endif]--> |
| 21:47.41 | sjansen | Even validates and everything. ;-) |
| 21:47.50 | jshipley | ~d20 IE6 saving roll |
| 21:47.57 | jshipley | ~d20 |
| 21:47.57 | ibot | 8 |
| 21:48.20 | jshipley | IE6 lost the saving roll and was impaled by the kobold |
| 21:48.28 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 21:50.37 | eightyeight | i can't imagine that upgrading the browser would cost that much |
| 21:50.45 | eightyeight | turn on windows update, and run |
| 21:51.24 | sjansen | eightyeight: You're assuming the system is networked and that all important software is compatible with updates. |
| 21:51.36 | eightyeight | of course i am |
| 21:52.12 | eightyeight | would IT intentially keep their systems outdated, just to support some awkward program? now that's expensive |
| 21:52.41 | sjansen | Windows admins quickly learn that they can't trust MS to push out safe updates. Those with time and competence build serves to push out their own updates. Those with less time or competence do it ad hoc as they visit systems. |
| 21:53.02 | eightyeight | naturally |
| 21:53.33 | eightyeight | a single system pushes out the updates to a networked infrastructure |
| 21:53.36 | Supaplex | MS updates fail us? nevarrr |
| 21:53.49 | sjansen | The problem is that most people making business decisions aren't competent enough to make good tech decisions. |
| 21:54.13 | eightyeight | then, everyone is up-to-date, virus scanning software is updated, browsers are kept in check, everyone is on the same page |
| 21:54.29 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 21:54.41 | eightyeight | i would imagine that solution is far cheaper than supporting old broken software |
| 21:54.54 | eightyeight | and going out of your way to keep it supported |
| 21:54.58 | sjansen | If ^Migs^ changes the Web site to break IE6, he'll be blamed for the expense of upgrading all systems. If he takes 3 times as long to add functionality to the Web site, no one will ever know it wasn't his fault. |
| 21:56.48 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
| 21:56.50 | sjansen | eightyeight: Supporting 500 systems scattered across many locations is very different from supporting 5 systems at home. Too often it's about avoiding catastrophe and not getting noticed, not doing things right. |
| 21:58.04 | eightyeight | i'm aware of the complexity. i just don't understand laziness |
| 21:58.27 | eightyeight | if it's done right, then it should be a well-oiled machine |
| 21:58.43 | sjansen | But I'd still try selling my boss on de-supporting IE6 to reduce costs. That, or charge principals extra for IE6 support. (Assuming a standard interdepartmental funny money system is in place.) |
| 21:58.45 | eightyeight | if it's not done right, then make it so |
| 21:59.18 | sjansen | Most government employees are not hired for their competence or ambition. |
| 22:00.30 | sjansen | And in a poorly funded organization, even competent employees can be too swamped to do things right. |
| 22:01.56 | harleypig | #^@#% Can anyone help me troubleshoot a cups problem? |
| 22:02.19 | harleypig | I have a HP Photosmart C6200 series printer, cups has the 6100 software installed. |
| 22:02.57 | harleypig | From the hp tools I can print a test page, but from the cups interface (web, system app or command line) the print job is stopped and the hp tool never sees the job. |
| 22:03.03 | sjansen | harleypig: Do you have hplip installed? |
| 22:03.22 | harleypig | The error log in the web cups interface just says stopped with status 2! |
| 22:03.28 | harleypig | sjansen: I think so, checking |
| 22:04.13 | harleypig | yes ... that's not the HP Device Manager tool? |
| 22:07.17 | harleypig | maybe I should rephrase that: "is that the HP Device Manager tool?" |
| 22:07.48 | harleypig | looks like it is. |
| 22:08.50 | Supaplex | debugging cups is such a pain |
| 22:09.10 | harleypig | hmm ... found hp-check ... |
| 22:09.23 | Supaplex | last time I did, I ended up modding half the scripts to decipher wtf :) |
| 22:10.17 | harleypig | Supaplex: :< I don' wanna hear that. |
| 22:11.26 | harleypig | hmmm ... the output has the same thing in the relevant section: /usr/lib/cups/filter/foomatic-rip failed |
| 22:12.47 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=Jake@205.158.184.126.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 22:24.31 | eightyeight | ~seen amcnabb |
| 22:24.33 | ibot | amcnabb <n=amcnabb@aml.cs.byu.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 279d 3h 47m 38s ago, saying: 'hi, sjansen!'. |
| 22:38.13 | harleypig | oh hey ... hplip isn't enough for the photosmart! thanks all you friggin' how-to's that don't mention this |
| 22:38.17 | harleypig | *mutter* *grumble* |
| 22:44.19 | sjansen | Yet another reason I refuse to buy anything but laser printers. |
| 22:46.05 | eightyeight | color laser printers are pricey |
| 22:46.50 | fozzmoo | "Hello, may I take your order please?" "Yes, I'd like a laser printer." |
| 22:47.07 | fozzmoo | "I'm sorry, what was that?" "I'd like a laser printer. I don't buy anything but laser printers." |
| 22:47.59 | mrpull | cheap, laser, color |
| 22:48.05 | mrpull | pick any two! |
| 22:48.24 | eightyeight | can't be cheap and laser |
| 22:48.27 | sjansen | Color is overrated. So is cheap. |
| 22:48.47 | eightyeight | cheap makes it possible to pay the mortgage and feed the family |
| 22:48.53 | mrpull | eightyeight: I've seen $69 laser printers |
| 22:48.58 | sjansen | Sure it can. My laser printer was only $100 and a couple years later I still haven't had to replace the toner. |
| 22:49.54 | eightyeight | i've never seen a color laser printer sub $500 personally |
| 22:50.06 | mrpull | I bet sjansen's 100 laser printer costs a lot less than a $50 color printer over that two years too |
| 22:50.42 | sjansen | Like I said, color is overrated. |
| 22:50.47 | eightyeight | i haven't relpaced my psc-2110 yet. it's been 4 years |
| 22:50.51 | high_roller | I bought my laser printer 4 years ago, and its barely running out of toner |
| 22:50.59 | sjansen | So is cheap. |
| 22:51.42 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=toofer@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 22:51.49 | sjansen | If you want color, going cheap is awfully expensive. Ink is outrage. Sure you can buy third party, but in retaliation now they're making ink jet printers disposable. |
| 22:51.53 | eightyeight | i have gone through cartridges like they're going out of style though |
| 22:55.55 | levi | Inkjet cartridges are ridiculous. |
| 22:56.11 | nicros | you can get a Lexmark color printer that comes with cartriages for less than what it costs to buy the replacement cartriages themselves. |
| 22:56.13 | high_roller | $8000 per gallon for ink |
| 22:56.27 | nicros | on sale at Walmart |
| 22:56.34 | eightyeight | doesn't do walmart |
| 22:56.45 | levi | nicros: Except the cartridges that come with it are generally only partially filled. |
| 22:56.51 | nicros | neither do i... communists |
| 22:57.21 | mrpull | I've considered replacing printers instead of replacing ink carts... I'm not a treehugger, but even I felt a little guilty about that |
| 22:57.34 | levi | WalMart is run by communists? |
| 22:57.50 | nicros | China = Communist |
| 22:57.59 | levi | They don't carry the ink for my printer anymore anyway. |
| 22:58.00 | mrpull | yeah, the ones that like to take all the money for themselves and keep it in their family |
| 22:58.07 | levi | nicros: Walmart != China |
| 22:58.11 | mrpull | (the walton style communism) |
| 22:58.25 | nicros | 99% of what they sell at Walmart is manufactured in China |
| 22:58.26 | mrpull | I'm not a fan of walmart, but they certainly aren't communist |
| 22:58.44 | mrpull | they aren't sharing the wealth with me |
| 22:58.50 | nicros | same China who steals and sells our nuclear technology to other terrorist states. |
| 22:58.57 | levi | nicros: Newsflash: a huge percentage of everything sold in the US is manufactured in China. |
| 22:59.11 | nicros | yea, but Walmart is by far the biggest |
| 22:59.20 | levi | This is, largely, because of Capitalism. |
| 22:59.49 | nicros | yep.. cheap bastards are selling out America |
| 23:00.08 | levi | Well, if you don't want Capitalism and you don't want Communism, what *do* you want? |
| 23:00.17 | tensai | a puppy! |
| 23:00.53 | nicros | i'm not anti Capitolism, i'm against doing business with a communits country who we know supports terrism and is guilty or terrible human rights violations. |
| 23:01.04 | levi | Well, WalMart doesn't sell puppies, but people do seem to often sell their puppies in front of WalMart. |
| 23:01.35 | maquis | whoever tried to talk to me at some point since i last was on: i'm here now |
| 23:01.43 | levi | Hi, maquis! |
| 23:01.45 | nicros | actually, the Walmart in West Jordan made it so people can't sell puppies out front anymore. |
| 23:01.49 | maquis | hi, levi |
| 23:01.50 | Supaplex | high_roller: how else are they going to support their crack habbit? |
| 23:02.17 | eightyeight | maquis: hah. that was me, like a week ago. :) |
| 23:02.24 | nicros | hates puppies |
| 23:02.33 | maquis | eightyeight: so, what's up? |
| 23:02.34 | maquis | :P |
| 23:02.39 | high_roller | Supaplex: true |
| 23:02.39 | maquis | i'm here now :) |
| 23:04.06 | tensai | starts learning chinese so he can propely welcome our new overlords |
| 23:04.17 | tensai | I hear maquis is a chinese spy |
| 23:04.28 | levi | Yeah, I heard that too. |
| 23:04.34 | maquis | sweet! the chinese are gonna be our new overlords? |
| 23:04.36 | maquis | er.. |
| 23:04.39 | maquis | i mean... |
| 23:04.57 | levi | maquis: I guess so. They've already taken over WalMart. |
| 23:05.23 | maquis | really |
| 23:05.24 | maquis | ? |
| 23:05.31 | nicros | is going to Walmart tonight to see if I can find anything that is made in the USA. |
| 23:06.27 | levi | I've seen several things at WalMart that were made by local companies. |
| 23:06.37 | sjansen | Shame on WalMart for keeping expenses low so that lower class Americans can afford to buy stuff. We'd all be better of with money trees instead of WalMarts. |
| 23:06.38 | nicros | give me an example |
| 23:06.56 | sjansen | All the Mormon books for starters. |
| 23:07.12 | *** join/#utah bismark90 (n=bismark9@128.187.175.199) |
| 23:07.12 | levi | They sell the 'Shelf Reliance' food storage shelves. |
| 23:07.21 | nicros | news flash... god is Chinese |
| 23:07.34 | levi | And they sell some camping equipment that's made by a local company. |
| 23:07.47 | nicros | why do you think they had to translate all those books. |
| 23:08.01 | levi | The zodi.com stuff. |
| 23:08.40 | tensai | I can't stand the walmart greeters. they make me feel like a criminal. I prefer to shop where I'm respected. |
| 23:08.53 | levi | Now, I'm not positive that *those* companies don't outsource to China, but it's pretty difficult to track that. |
| 23:09.12 | tensai | notice how they stand facing toward exiting customers, rather than entering. pretty clear they're not really there to greet people. |
| 23:09.49 | sjansen | tensai: Hate tor break it to you, but those greeters are there because you're a criminal. They reduce shop lifting. |
| 23:10.07 | nicros | probably do.. checking right now |
| 23:10.13 | tensai | sjansen: I realize that, but *I'm* not a criminal so I'll shop where I'm not treated like one. |
| 23:10.53 | high_roller | walmart greeters make me laugh |
| 23:11.10 | Supaplex | ~hysteria |
| 23:11.13 | levi | nicros: If you're committed to not buying anything that's manufactured in China, you're going to live a pretty ascetic life. |
| 23:11.19 | tensai | nicros: the walmart here carries the most delicious pork from twin falls. I'm drooling just thinking about it. |
| 23:11.28 | sjansen | I like the greeters. A think it's a nice way to give an old person with no skills something to do. Better than the rent a cops some stores use. |
| 23:11.51 | eightyeight | sjansen: and i'm sure that 70 year old would chase down the next beer run |
| 23:12.07 | sjansen | You think the rent a cops are going to stick out their necks? |
| 23:12.11 | nicros | news flash.. Walmart actually takes a loss on their food items so people shop there and buy their other crap made in China |
| 23:12.48 | eightyeight | i just don't like walmart for the layout, smell and overall unkempt nature of the store |
| 23:13.09 | sjansen | news flash: Food used to be the #1 largest expense for most Americans. Companies like WalMart that have pushed down the price of food have done a lot to improve the living conditions of the working poor. |
| 23:13.12 | eightyeight | there are philisophical reasons too, like taking out the mom and pop shops, and exploiting child labor, but that's hard to bypass these days |
| 23:13.13 | nicros | don't come to me when China asks us to repay the 500 billion dollars we owe them. |
| 23:13.15 | unum | I feel a lot more at home at harmons than walmart |
| 23:13.27 | nicros | agrees |
| 23:13.27 | levi | eightyeight: I used to hate it for that, but the newer stores are somewhat improved. |
| 23:13.42 | sjansen | WalMart has nothing to do with congress not knowing how to balance a budget. |
| 23:14.24 | nicros | no, but they are exploiting the unfair and unbalanced trade agreement. |
| 23:14.25 | eightyeight | levi: i've usually found target to be competitive, and better kept |
| 23:14.34 | sjansen | Mom and pop stores are a blight, a drag on the local economy. |
| 23:14.36 | eightyeight | so, i've gotten into habit of shopping there instead |
| 23:14.44 | levi | eightyeight: Yeah, I prefer Target too. |
| 23:15.08 | tensai | sjansen: we used to spend 25% of our money on food, 5% on health care. now it's 5% on food and 15% on health care. it's not entirely walmart's fault, but I'm not convinced cheap food improves peoples' lives. |
| 23:15.11 | unum | eightyeight: agreed |
| 23:16.14 | Supaplex | tensai: twinkies for everyone! |
| 23:16.18 | nicros | Walmart used to advertise that 100% of their products where made in the USA. |
| 23:16.31 | tensai | in the 80's they were on a made in the USA kick |
| 23:16.54 | nicros | they sold out america so they could make a quick buck. |
| 23:16.55 | sjansen | Our economy and liberty is designed to make WalMart possible. Opposing WalMart is un-American. |
| 23:16.56 | tensai | face it though, if they hadn't moved to selling cheap chinese stuff they would have died. that's the way the market moved. |
| 23:17.30 | eightyeight | sjansen: having an opinion and voicing it is as american as it gets. it's what our founding fathers died for |
| 23:17.42 | sjansen | It is totally unfair the the Chinese would rather earn low pay than starve on dirt farms. |
| 23:17.52 | eightyeight | senses tom hanks in this |
| 23:18.23 | nicros | have you not read about the human rights violations going on in China? |
| 23:18.28 | nicros | it's not just the low pay |
| 23:18.29 | sjansen | We should go back to the good old days of the depression when protectionism made everything better. |
| 23:18.55 | eightyeight | and we priced the economy on gold? |
| 23:18.57 | nicros | the depression had nothing to do with things being made in the USA |
| 23:19.17 | levi | eightyeight: There are a number of people in the channel that would *love* a return to the gold standard. |
| 23:19.19 | eightyeight | s/we priced/price/ |
| 23:19.34 | eightyeight | levi: yeah. i remember that conversation |
| 23:19.49 | sjansen | nicros: I agree! Screw the Chinese, contact with America is forcing their society to evolve. I liked it better when they were forcing their peasants to starve to save face. |
| 23:20.39 | sjansen | We should take away their Internet too! It's ours, we invented it. |
| 23:20.41 | eightyeight | seemed to last a few days, iirc. i really hope i didn't open that can of worms again |
| 23:20.45 | nicros | sjansen: it's stuff like that that eventually leads to a revolution and a better life for everyone. |
| 23:21.25 | nicros | what's going to happen when we are forced to go to war with China and you guys won't be able to buy all your cheap crap there. |
| 23:21.30 | levi | I heard today that China is working on implementing universal health care. |
| 23:21.35 | nicros | we're closer than you think. |
| 23:21.38 | tensai | eightyeight: just walk quietly away and maybe nobody will notice |
| 23:21.42 | sjansen | No, I totally agree. It's better for everyone if we allow millions to starve and struggle under the thumb of a absolute military dictatorship. |
| 23:21.43 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:22.03 | eightyeight | goes back to the bliss of python |
| 23:22.14 | sjansen | Their hoes will be so much more effective at leading a revolution than their addiction to cheap cars and fancy clothes. |
| 23:22.17 | nicros | sjansen? why don't we do the same business with Cuba then? |
| 23:22.51 | nicros | we sit and watch while the citizens of Cuba starve to death or drown trying to reach the US |
| 23:23.06 | nicros | whats' the difference between communist China and communist Cuba? |
| 23:23.15 | sjansen | We don't do business with Cuba because we are hypocrites. |
| 23:23.17 | nicros | piss on one but embrace the other. |
| 23:23.31 | nicros | sounds like a double standard to me |
| 23:23.39 | Supaplex | humm |
| 23:23.44 | tensai | what part of "hypocrite" didn't you understand? |
| 23:24.02 | sjansen | It is much better to let the Cubans in Cuba suffer than it is to risk pissing of the Cubans in Miami. |
| 23:24.06 | Supaplex | makes heads and tails of ~ 3TB of storage to figure out where the old templates are hiding |
| 23:24.46 | nicros | well, i guess i would rather be un-american and buy products made in the USA than be a hyprocrite that buys cheap crap from a country that supports terrorism. |
| 23:25.07 | levi | nicros: The mistake you're making is assuming that there's one overarching set of moral guidelines that the government follows when making decisions about stuff. |
| 23:25.30 | sjansen | Agreed. Things have gotten so much easier since we could just shut off our brains when someone throws out the word terrorism. |
| 23:25.55 | tensai | ~echelon fodder |
| 23:25.56 | ibot | echelon fodder is probably Bush, Uranium, Dirty Bomb, Jihad, Allah Akbar, TNT, Rent a van, assassination , NSA, wiretaps, sleeper cell, suicide bomb, vest, Oklahoma City, Waco, revenge, anthrax, virgins, fuse, great celebration, July 4th, detcord, martyr, timer, backpack, subway. Ruby Ridge |
| 23:25.59 | levi | Decisions are made ad-hoc on a one-by-one basis, often by entirely different groups of people, so expecting consistency between them is kind of absurd. |
| 23:26.21 | sjansen | Our only hope is in isolation. |
| 23:26.31 | sjansen | Alone and afraid in the dark, that's how I prefer to live. |
| 23:26.34 | nicros | hell yea, America first damn it |
| 23:26.48 | levi | We also need a monarch, like an emperor or something, who can bring moral consistency back to our government. |
| 23:27.16 | sjansen | You know where we went wrong? We never should have gotten involved in WWII. Screw Europe, it was a local problem, what were we doing there? |
| 23:27.49 | nicros | depends on what theater your talking about? |
| 23:27.52 | goozbach | sjansen: we didn't get involved in WWII until it wasn't a local problem anymore |
| 23:27.58 | goozbach | it took perl harbor |
| 23:28.06 | goozbach | er pearl harbor |
| 23:28.07 | unum | sjansen: we were bombed by the japanese because we were shooting at them in china |
| 23:28.14 | tensai | levi: gwb seemed to be making an attempt |
| 23:28.16 | sjansen | Perl Harbor was Japan. I said screw Europe! |
| 23:28.38 | sjansen | I know, some people think WWII happened because we refused to get involved. I say they were pansies. |
| 23:28.57 | sjansen | We would have been just fine with Hitler as a neighbor. He never would have attacked us. Said so himself. |
| 23:29.47 | sjansen | Thinks were so much better in the good old days. |
| 23:29.59 | sjansen | Remember how much fun it was having wooping cough? |
| 23:30.23 | sjansen | And dysentery? Oh the fun we used to have fighting over who got to use the bathroom next. |
| 23:31.08 | sjansen | is sad that nicros couldn't handle having his own inconsistency thrust in his face |
| 23:31.39 | levi | For the record, nicros is the same guy who thinks Javascript is dying. |
| 23:31.56 | tensai | sjansen: the anti-vaccine crowd is trying to bring back all the good old diseases |
| 23:32.02 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber <- wheather project :) |
| 23:35.06 | levi | Idealists are fun to troll. |
| 23:35.39 | sjansen | Realist is just another word for defeatist. |
| 23:36.28 | sjansen | Intellectual. Homosexual. Do you see the similarity? |
| 23:36.37 | sjansen | If it can't fit on a bumper sticker, it must not be true. |
| 23:37.16 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 23:38.29 | levi | The inability to deal with complex situations without a simple guiding philosophy that has a black vs. white answer to everything is rather sad. |
| 23:39.05 | unum | many will call good evil and evil good ;) |
| 23:39.32 | unum | I wish that scripture contained a way of telling me which side I'm on.... |
| 23:39.49 | levi | Heh. |
| 23:39.56 | levi | If it was that simple... |
| 23:40.27 | levi | Honestly, if the divisive issues of the day *could* be reduced that easily, there wouldn't be so much disagreement about them. |
| 23:40.45 | unum | we're hosting a survey on "globabl warming" an email address that forwards to me is posted on each page of the survey |
| 23:40.47 | levi | People generally want to do the right thing. |
| 23:41.21 | unum | the other day I recieved an email that contained a scriptures stating people would lie in the the last day |
| 23:41.22 | sjansen | http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/22/36#36 |
| 23:41.25 | levi | And the moral values that most people hold are very similar. |
| 23:41.55 | unum | and this seemed to be conclusive evidence the global warming was a fraud and everyone that believed in it was going to hell |
| 23:42.35 | sjansen | Sadly, most of us are not so insightful as the Savior. |
| 23:42.51 | levi | Yeah, some people really fail at the whole reasoning thing. |
| 23:42.57 | unum | sjansen: I think you and I agree that patience, long suffering and kindness is the way we show our love for others |
| 23:42.59 | sjansen | So we just have to muddle along as best we can. |
| 23:43.15 | unum | but many seemed convince that legally preventing them from sinning is showing love... |
| 23:43.18 | sjansen | unum: Point taken. |
| 23:43.49 | unum | of course to set them straight we just need to show them d&c 134 :) |
| 23:44.09 | unum | of course then I don't know how to explain recent statements from church leaders |
| 23:44.18 | levi | I ran into an interesting ebook by some university researcher about authoritarianism. |
| 23:44.53 | unum | though I tell my priesthood leaders what my feelings are and they still give me my temple recommend, so I don't worry too much about it |
| 23:44.55 | levi | http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ |
| 23:44.56 | brac | [The Authoritarians] |
| 23:44.56 | sjansen | Wait, you were pointing out that I'm not exactly a perfect example of patience, long suffering an kindness, right? |
| 23:45.44 | unum | actually I was trying to point out that both sides can point at the other and say "you're calling evil good" |
| 23:46.51 | levi | I also like when people bring up the scripture about the lukewarm being spat out as justification for extreme stances. |
| 23:47.11 | sjansen | I caught that part. I was referring to "sjansen: I think you and I agree that patience, long suffering and kindness is the way we show our love for others" |
| 23:47.30 | findlay | nuh uh |
| 23:47.58 | sjansen | Because I'm fully aware that I'm a hypocrite. Still haven't figured how to stand up for truth without being an ornery cuss. |
| 23:48.02 | unum | actually that wasn't meant to say you're not a perfect example, it was just the first part of point |
| 23:48.39 | unum | I tend to have the same problem. Even though I know arguments rarely work on me. |
| 23:49.06 | unum | I always play devil advocate on global warming because i have fully decided what i believe |
| 23:49.19 | unum | I think I've decided I believe in man made climate change |
| 23:49.39 | unum | I definetly believe in breathing |
| 23:50.06 | maquis | i believe that the climate has been changing |
| 23:50.26 | maquis | i don't know if i believe in global warming, though... it seems to get colder up here in seattle every year |
| 23:50.37 | maquis | or... at least more extreme |
| 23:50.49 | maquis | summers have been warmer, i guess.... but the winters have been *way* colder |
| 23:50.58 | maquis | this morning, it was 25 degrees |
| 23:51.02 | Tene | maquis: "warming" refers to global temperatures. global temperature rising on average leads to more extreme variation. |
| 23:51.13 | maquis | when i was little, it never got below 30 |
| 23:51.15 | sjansen | The more tie passes, the less I believe that man is solely responsible for climate change. But that still doesn't mean I think we should blindly do whatever we want. |
| 23:51.17 | Tene | ocelot |
| 23:51.29 | maquis | ocelot? |
| 23:51.29 | levi | Tene: lemur |
| 23:51.41 | Tene | Gah. "oslt" |
| 23:51.41 | maquis | ocelots used to be my favorite animals when i was little |
| 23:52.30 | levi | "Or something like that"? |
| 23:52.35 | Tene | Yeah. |
| 23:52.40 | jshipley | I've decided that I don't really care whether global warming is really happening or not :) |
| 23:52.43 | sjansen | I thought there was a strong global scientific consensus until I started talking to scientists. |
| 23:53.04 | jshipley | Either way, we should act the same. We should reduce pollution, and take better care of the environment. |
| 23:53.29 | sjansen | My position is, take out insurance by reducing potentially harmful behavior, continue to study, but don't see the house and move into a cave just yet. |
| 23:53.42 | sjansen | s/see/sell/ |
| 23:54.21 | sjansen | The interesting question is, how much should we spend to reduce damage to the environment. |
| 23:54.24 | sjansen | ? |
| 23:54.51 | sjansen | Until recently, most environmentalists were so extreme it forced business to the other extreme. |
| 23:54.56 | Tene | Richard Hanson has written some interesting material on the topic. |
| 23:55.29 | sjansen | Finally some environmentalists are realizing the economics and environmentalism don't have to be enemies. |
| 23:56.11 | sjansen | For example, nuclear power is a problem but we need electricity and most other options are dreams or worse for environment. |
| 23:56.39 | sjansen | Meanwhile, smart businesses are starting to realized that reducing pollution means reducing waste which means saving money. |
| 23:57.41 | jshipley | Nuclear power sounds a lot better to me than coal power |
| 23:57.51 | sjansen | It's fine for Europeans to insist on public transportation, but most Americans away from the coasts are too spread out to make it more than a partial solution. |
| 23:58.05 | Tene | a partial solution would be great. |
| 23:58.31 | sjansen | So long as it is recognized as partial. |
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| 23:58.59 | jshipley | it would be nice to have a more expansive train network with cheaper fares, and decent public transport in every city |
