| 00:27.19 | levi | Wow, don't screw with the Secret Service: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvYV5QZtevk&eurl |
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| 01:00.45 | *** topic/#utah is http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | IRC: now with employee pricing! |
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| 01:02.57 | brac | sells Tene on E-Bay |
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| 01:04.38 | elg | sweet |
| 01:04.46 | elg | one of the stations here ditched their stupid weather station and picked up RTN |
| 01:04.55 | elg | http://www.myretrotv.com/ |
| 01:04.57 | brac | [Welcome to RTN the Retro Television Network] |
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| 01:28.29 | levi | I'd like to see more stations airing interesting stuff on their subchannels instead of lame weather or sports crap. |
| 01:29.10 | levi | The sports subchannels that have shown up recently don't even look like they'd be particularly interesting to sports fans. |
| 01:36.35 | tensai | elg: I tried running logfsgram with 1048576. whoops! didn't realize it used up so much ram. |
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| 01:37.34 | elg | oh yeah :) |
| 01:37.56 | elg | n^2 ram iirc |
| 01:38.02 | tensai | eek |
| 01:38.34 | elg | and i think they're doubles. and/or complex numbers |
| 01:38.47 | Sargun_Screen | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:38.50 | Sargun_Screen | insanely. |
| 01:38.54 | Sargun_Screen | this is annoying. |
| 01:40.35 | goozbach | http://bash.org/?264954 |
| 01:40.36 | brac | [QDB: Quote #264954] |
| 01:41.47 | Sargun_Screen | lol |
| 01:42.53 | tensai | so the american youth soccer org has online registration |
| 01:43.14 | tensai | it involves downloading a form, filling it out, printing it and taking it to the regular registration |
| 01:43.33 | tensai | I think they missed the concept |
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| 01:54.57 | elg | tensai: now you know why i upgraded my ram recently |
| 01:55.09 | elg | i do a lot of these graphs (and ones like them) for my research |
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| 02:15.32 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:15.42 | sjansen | sobs quietly |
| 02:16.34 | herlo | so streaming of the Salt Lake Linux User Group meeting is live at http://stream.utos.org:8080, feel free to comment and mock Marc |
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| 03:33.06 | preston | thank you everyone in this room who helped me |
| 03:33.08 | preston | :) |
| 03:33.21 | preston | I am no longer stealing an OS. |
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| 03:50.49 | findlay | so, the UU library has a huge new computer lab that basically takes up one whole floor |
| 03:51.00 | fozzmoo | I don't get that. |
| 03:51.03 | findlay | guess what distro they run in there |
| 03:51.08 | fozzmoo | findlay: What? |
| 03:51.12 | findlay | gentoo |
| 03:51.15 | fozzmoo | huh |
| 03:51.20 | fozzmoo | Again, I don't get that. |
| 03:51.27 | findlay | get what? |
| 03:51.30 | fozzmoo | What's the purpose for computer labs when just about every student has a laptop? |
| 03:51.37 | findlay | I don't know |
| 03:51.46 | findlay | once again, administrators are behind the times |
| 03:52.02 | fozzmoo | Or they just have money to burn. |
| 03:52.31 | fozzmoo | Or, in the case of Gentoo, oodles of time to burn. |
| 03:52.35 | findlay | think that 'we need technology' and 'technology means [windows-style overpowered] workstations' |
| 03:53.09 | fozzmoo | Brand name? |
| 03:54.47 | findlay | I don't remember |
| 03:54.51 | fozzmoo | oh well. |
| 03:55.54 | findlay | I just saw all of these acres of workstations and thought: 'think of all the money they burned dumping a ms desktop onto each one' then saw a prominent gentoo logo on each one |
| 03:56.50 | findlay | the cool thing is that most kids these days are either too dumb to tell the difference between $workstation1 and $workstation2 or smart enough to handle anything |
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| 04:31.25 | elg | every student does not have a laptop |
| 04:31.33 | elg | that's wishful thinking |
| 04:31.55 | elg | except at institutions where they require it, in which case it's a prefigured cost |
| 04:33.45 | eightyeight | every student has a laptop? i wish i had one when i was in school |
| 04:36.43 | elg | even if you factor in the modernity factor, it's far from true. heck, not even close to every student has a car |
| 04:37.06 | elg | and all students want cars, not just the geek major ones |
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| 05:06.31 | levi | Yeah, there are plenty of students who don't have laptops, or have old underpowered laptops, or have laptops that don't have the latest software, etc. |
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| 05:12.37 | levi | I only wonder what posessed them to put Gentoo on a farm of workstations. |
| 05:32.16 | Supaplex | ibot: onjoin -Jayce^ |
| 05:32.16 | ibot | ok, Supaplex |
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| 06:08.58 | fozzmoo | http://www.opensourcetv.tv/video/14.html |
| 06:09.17 | fozzmoo | wonders where brac is. |
| 06:09.30 | Supaplex | This text will be replaced |
| 06:09.31 | fozzmoo | [UTOSC 2008 - Jared Smith of Digium - Dialplans for Dummies] |
| 06:28.58 | toofer | fozzmoo: thanks for the link. I'm checking it out now. |
| 06:29.16 | toofer | Are you guys on here 24/7? |
| 06:29.27 | toofer | I see certain people on here almost everytime I get one. |
| 06:29.28 | toofer | *on |
| 06:31.26 | Supaplex | my client is here pretty much 24/7 |
| 06:31.53 | Supaplex | it's kinda hard not to be when it's my router. :) 06:30:58 up 521 days, 3:46, load average: 0.07, 0.03, 0.00 |
| 06:33.09 | toofer | pretty awesome uptime. |
| 06:38.21 | levi | I'm awake at the keyboard 24/7. I'm an IRC animal! |
| 06:39.16 | toofer | haha |
| 06:39.36 | tensai | I remember falling asleep in the computer lab once |
| 06:39.49 | tensai | never would have figured a keyboard could be so comfortabl |
| 06:40.36 | toofer | ahhh... the warmth of a wood desk. |
| 06:41.00 | toofer | Speaking of sleep I need some right about now. Later! |
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| 06:41.13 | levi | No need for comfort when you're tired enough. :) |
| 06:42.57 | Supaplex | heh indeed. |
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| 06:50.46 | brac | forces Tene to use perl for 3 weeks |
| 06:51.14 | herlo | yeah, like that's a punishment |
| 06:52.49 | Supaplex | perl4 |
| 06:56.06 | herlo | heh |
| 06:58.45 | Supaplex | wonders if these piddly little boxes are usb 1.1 or 2.0 humm |
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| 15:40.13 | eightyeight | is it just me, or is grammar and spell checking not that important in news articles these days? |
| 15:40.20 | eightyeight | seems to me journalists are getting lazy |
| 15:40.34 | goozbach | eightyeight: it's all about getting news out fast |
| 15:40.37 | goozbach | not accurate |
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| 15:58.44 | elg | -chat ~onjoin Jayce^ |
| 15:58.45 | brac | ~onjoin Jayce^ |
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| 17:11.45 | Tene_ | open-source programmable RPN/Algebraic scientific calculator watch: http://www.calcwatch.com/ |
| 17:11.46 | brac | [uWatch - A DIY Programmable Scientific Calculator Watch] |
| 17:13.30 | levi | So, the sign on the freeway this morning tells me that air quality will be bad tomorrow, and that I should avoid driving then. This is right as I descend into a sea of lumpy brown air. :P |
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| 17:19.05 | Supaplex | levi: they put that sign up yesterday. (wild guess/sarcasm) |
| 17:20.13 | levi | Huh, an editorial from Muammar Qaddafi in the NYT today. |
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| 17:22.06 | ^Migs^ | tasked with developing a strategy to deal with space aliens on Earth has been shelved. For the time being, anyway. |
| 17:22.12 | ^Migs^ | "It's on hold for now because of the confidence that I feel and a lot of people feel in the Obama administration in moving toward more disclosure of the UFO/extraterrestrial information," said Jeff Peckman, whose proposed Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission generated national headlines. |
| 17:22.15 | ^Migs^ | http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/jan/22/alien-invasion-plan-on-hold/ |
| 17:25.13 | toofer | levi: they mentioned it yesterday on KRCL that it's supposed to be bad air quality for the next three days. Old people should avoid going outside. |
| 17:26.18 | levi | The air quality has been bad all week. I'm not sure staying inside really helps, either. It's not like houses have fresh air pumped to them. |
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| 17:28.01 | unum | I think you heater has a filter that helps clean the air some |
| 17:29.23 | toofer | levi: true |
| 17:39.11 | levi | Cool, my old iBook's repair part should be delivered in the mail today. |
| 17:39.20 | levi | my DC-in board died. |
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| 18:16.41 | eightyeight | Tene_: the fact that it's rpn is enough for me to purchase it. :) |
| 18:17.08 | Tene_ | eightyeight: I wish I wanted one, but I have no use for a calculator watch. |
| 18:18.05 | eightyeight | heh. i'd never wear it. i don't mind being a geek, but looking like one? nah |
| 18:18.28 | eightyeight | but, it would be cool to have and show off to family and friends |
| 18:18.28 | jshipley | I don't even wear a watch anymore... probably a good thing, because I used to be a compulsive time-checker |
| 18:18.31 | Tene_ | you don't have to attach a watchband to it. You can just carry it in a pocket. |
| 18:18.50 | eightyeight | yeah. i saw you could even attach it to a belt clip |
| 18:19.08 | Tene_ | I've never seen the appeal of belt clip devices. |
| 18:20.10 | eightyeight | i put my phone on my belt. i don't like it in pockets. feels too bulky |
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| 18:29.19 | sjansen | eightyeight: Someday you'll be sorry. You'll be sprinting to defuse a terrorists bomb, your cell phone will fall off your belt, and you won't get the call redirecting you from the decoy to the real bomb. |
| 18:29.45 | sjansen | If you ask me, it's awfully selfish of you to put our safety in jeopardy because you don't like bulky pockets. |
| 18:31.10 | eightyeight | i like being selfish. if i have to difuse a bomb, i'll make someone else do it |
| 18:31.56 | ^Migs^ | what are some good pranks to play on coworkers when they walk away from their computer without locking it? Something beyond the simple changing the screensaver or Windows wallpaper...? |
| 18:32.02 | ^Migs^ | Like, some program I can download that messes things up |
| 18:32.38 | eightyeight | besides, if my phone falls off my leather belt, it's because the belt itself broke, not the phone attachment |
| 18:34.00 | Tene_ | ^Migs^: echo "alias vim=emacs" >> .bashrc |
| 18:34.22 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 18:34.30 | ^Migs^ | he's a Windows user, though :( |
| 18:34.40 | Jayce^ | switch their input method, eg dvorack or cyrillic |
| 18:34.47 | eightyeight | ^Migs^: are you sure you want to setup that sort of work environment? playing pranks on your coworkers just means they can't trust you |
| 18:35.14 | ^Migs^ | what are you talking about? Everyone here does it. I just need to come up with something new. |
| 18:36.22 | eightyeight | i'm talking about responsibility and trust. if you get on his machine, you could be responsible for problems you may not have caused |
| 18:37.07 | jshipley | you could take a screen shot of their wallpaper, set it as the wallpaper, and hide the start bar... the screen shot will make it look like the start bar's still there |
| 18:38.11 | sjansen | sides with eightyeight |
| 18:38.17 | eightyeight | better pranks are nerf guns or paper airplanes |
| 18:38.29 | eggyknap | Meh... wrap their cubicle in tin foil. |
| 18:38.33 | jshipley | would listen to eightyeight as well, but still felt like giving a suggestion |
| 18:39.02 | eightyeight | computers are better left alone |
| 18:39.28 | sjansen | You don't steal a girlfriend from your brother or best friend. You don't ever touch another man's hat. And you don't touch anyone's computer without permission. |
| 18:39.36 | ^Migs^ | new Hello Kitty hospital: http://tinyurl.com/d36mpj |
| 18:39.41 | brac | [Hello Kitty Hospital a Hit With Moms-To-Be - ParentDish] |
| 18:40.00 | MrTeye | Cut open one of those pressure sensitive noise toys.. put the device in their chair cushion. |
| 18:40.19 | eggyknap | o/` o/` "And you don't mess around with Jim..." o/` |
| 18:40.31 | JoshH | well, windows workstations for lusers are more fair game than computers used by people like us, imo |
| 18:40.44 | unum | I watched a documentary last night called "the yes men fix the world" it was kind of crazy |
| 18:41.39 | sjansen | eggyknap++ |
| 18:43.11 | eightyeight | eggyknap: i saw a cube filled to the brim with styrofoam popcorn. thought that was great |
| 18:43.25 | JoshH | if the lusers have speakers, flash, and js enabled, setting their homepage to http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare is a fine idea |
| 18:43.26 | brac | [Flash » You Are an Idiot] |
| 18:43.31 | eightyeight | http://www.guzer.com/pictures/cubicle_joke.php |
| 18:44.09 | sjansen | JoshH: All the more reason not to mess with someone. It's too easy for computing-challenged people to form unrealistic paranoia. Suddenly everything even slightly unusual will be your fault. Slow Internet, blue screens, adware porn popups, etc. |
| 18:44.28 | JoshH | that's why you don't admit your guilt |
| 18:44.42 | JoshH | say it must have been someone else, but you were afk |
| 18:44.56 | eightyeight | then it's no longer a prank |
| 18:44.58 | JoshH | and tell them to start locking when they walk away |
| 18:45.13 | JoshH | that's policy at most places anyway |
| 18:45.57 | jshipley | put their mouse in a bowl of jello, a la 'The Office' |
| 18:47.32 | JoshH | take their stapler |
| 18:47.43 | eightyeight | i'm no chef, so this will probably show my ignorance, but how do you get an object to float in jello? isn't jello liquid when setting up? |
| 18:48.02 | eightyeight | does it require a couple sessions? |
| 18:48.29 | JoshH | i once read that filling the toilets with clear jello at night is a great thing to do |
| 18:48.33 | jshipley | well, if the mouse has a cord then you could hang it from something |
| 18:49.39 | goozbach | eightyeight: make a small ammount of jello, let it setup, place object, cover with more jellow |
| 18:49.42 | jshipley | taking staplers probably isn't much fun unless it's a red swingline |
| 18:51.11 | eightyeight | goozbach: seems that you would have a seam then? i guess it wouldn't matter |
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| 19:03.52 | levi | Grr, idiot professor marked my homework wrong without even checking my answer. |
| 19:04.28 | levi | And it's the *correct* answer. Aside from my calculations being correct, it's written in the back of the book. |
| 19:06.13 | Jayce^ | wow, well worth watching these: http://www.woot.com/Blog/ViewEntry.aspx?Id=7185 |
| 19:43.14 | levi | PHP is better than Perl because it provides a more effective job filter for me. I never want a job doing PHP, but I might take a job doing Perl. :P |
| 19:45.06 | unum | I have now done object oriented php(which is what they use there), what were those guys smoking |
| 19:45.15 | unum | they way you set up a class is soooooooooooo wrong |
| 19:45.55 | JoshH | i can't wait until all the SEO companies out there die off and go away for good |
| 19:47.13 | JoshH | they all think they are the coolest company ever, and have the most annoying recruiting pitches |
| 19:47.31 | JoshH | and it seems like utah county has an overabundance of them |
| 19:49.48 | jsmith | s/SEO/MLM/ |
| 19:49.55 | jsmith | Yeah... that's Utah for you |
| 19:50.49 | JoshH | yep |
| 19:54.05 | ^Migs^ | I'd take another job doing PHP, as long as PHP wasn't the ONLY thing I'd be using |
| 19:54.36 | jsmith | Some days, I'd take another job just to get back into doing more programming |
| 19:55.35 | Jayce^ | heh, didn't eharbor recently lay off a bunch of it's people again, think they became experienced.. |
| 19:55.56 | elg | ~optimize Jayce^ |
| 19:56.04 | elg | http://hans.fugal.net/tmp/ringtones/ for your enjoyment |
| 19:56.28 | elg | -metar klru |
| 19:56.30 | brac | KLRU 221950Z AUTO 26005KT 10SM RA OVC070 12/04 A3020 RMK AO2 |
| 19:56.40 | elg | yay rain |
| 20:05.40 | *** join/#utah markl (n=mark@c-67-186-245-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:10.41 | *** join/#utah markl_ (n=mark@c-67-186-245-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:15.44 | fozzmoo | Good ole E-Harbor. |
| 20:15.54 | fozzmoo | I did some Perl contracting for them before they went full-bore PHP. |
| 20:24.26 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:25.00 | neybar | bah on E-Harbor |
| 20:45.27 | Sargun | Does anyone know of any decent (cheap) NAS, with RAID1? |
| 20:46.37 | Tene_ | I remember a Windows commercial from some time in the past that had people flying around, flying out of windows and around the office, etc. Nobody else here remembers it, though. |
| 20:49.12 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Netgear ReadyNAS |
| 20:49.58 | goozbach | Sargun: build your own with A co-raid and openfiler |
| 20:50.55 | sjansen | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8 |
| 20:56.28 | eightyeight | http://obiecte.blogspot.com/2008/09/oop-sucks.html |
| 20:57.23 | craver | i remember that one |
| 21:00.23 | Sargun | goozbach, this project is VERY size & cost constrained. |
| 21:02.39 | unum | i love oop I don't care what anyone else says |
| 21:02.45 | unum | I just hate php-oop |
| 21:02.55 | unum | python oop is really nice |
| 21:03.06 | unum | and I don't think c++ oop is bad |
| 21:04.16 | unum | looks like he's mostly complaining about java oop which may be valid :) |
| 21:06.19 | sjansen | He's arguing that OOP is a hammer and that a screwdriver is usually more useful. |
| 21:07.10 | elg | but we all know danish pastry is the answer to all problems |
| 21:08.00 | unum | if you're programming OOP you should program OOP |
| 21:08.24 | unum | mixing and mashing will make the code more confusing |
| 21:09.14 | elg | no, I don't think that's true |
| 21:09.36 | elg | to carry sjansen's analogy, you can use a hammer and a screwdriver on the same project |
| 21:09.38 | elg | without confusion |
| 21:09.59 | elg | i think good OOP means using a lot of functional programming idioms |
| 21:10.17 | elg | OOP isn't an all-encompassing style. it's just one corner of the picture |
| 21:10.18 | unum | looking through the article further looks like it's mostly a java issue |
| 21:10.27 | unum | "java requires classes" |
| 21:10.48 | *** join/#utah romanovic (i=romanovi@wireless469.wireless.utah.edu) |
| 21:11.06 | elg | notice that the bad programmers be bad programmers with or without java's heavy-handed classes |
| 21:11.09 | elg | they just do it differently |
| 21:11.39 | elg | requiring everything to be a class is dumb. everything's not a class. some things are just procedures. etc. |
| 21:11.46 | elg | java is dumb. film at 11 |
| 21:12.09 | unum | I do agree with that. |
| 21:12.32 | unum | but you shouldn't avoid using classes when they make sense |
| 21:12.45 | unum | which is what I thought he was saying at first |
| 21:12.57 | unum | stupid java developers |
| 21:13.12 | unum | ~lart eightyeight for sharing an article written by a java developer |
| 21:13.12 | ibot | eats eightyeight's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti for sharing an article written by a java developer |
| 21:15.50 | Tene_ | http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords/ |
| 21:19.17 | unum | I understand each president issues an order like that at the first of their presidencies, bush's order was of course the opposite, but Clinton's was similiar |
| 21:19.22 | unum | though I'm not sure it was as open |
| 21:21.15 | unum | nm, that's not what I thought it was |
| 21:21.22 | eightyeight | unum: java or not, the point is valid. OOP is more hype than function |
| 21:23.38 | unum | eightyeight: OOP is incredibly useful and should be used when ever it makes sense |
| 21:24.04 | unum | I couldn't imagine coding a complex program with out OOP |
| 21:25.00 | unum | I know many other people do it, but I wouldn't want to |
| 21:25.34 | unum | and he doesn't make any valid points about why oop isn't functional when not over done(like java) |
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| 21:48.01 | levi | That anti-oop article was so wrongheaded it's hard to know where to begin a criticism of it. |
| 22:04.46 | high_roller | was it a I don't get it so it must be wrong type of article? |
| 22:07.48 | levi | No, it was an "All I know about OOP I learned from Java, and now this shiny new Functional Programming thing has won me over" article. |
| 22:08.28 | high_roller | ah |
| 22:08.36 | high_roller | didn't have time to read it |
| 22:09.05 | *** join/#utah toofer (n=[work]to@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 22:09.11 | eggyknap | Heh... functional programming is new? |
| 22:09.14 | eggyknap | giggles at the thought |
| 22:09.29 | *** part/#utah toofer (n=[work]to@kjordan.securesites.net) |
| 22:12.53 | Sargun | hehe |
| 22:14.54 | levi | eggyknap: Well, new to him. |
| 22:15.43 | eggyknap | would have a hard time putting any faith in an article on programming styles from someone who thought F.P. was new ;) |
| 22:16.39 | eightyeight | if only python was actually a functional programming language |
| 22:16.39 | jshipley | well, some FP languages do have new features... |
| 22:17.06 | eightyeight | i've heard python 3 has made some headway in that direction, but haven't had time to look into it |
| 22:17.25 | eggyknap | still needs to sit down with Haskell for a weekend or two. |
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| 22:18.17 | levi | Python has a some parts that are very functional in nature, the problem is that they're highly segregated from the rest of the language. |
| 22:18.41 | jshipley | the biggest changes I've heard of for python 3 becoming a functional language are dict/set comprehensions to complement the already existing list comprehension and making range a generator (and removing xrange) |
| 22:19.49 | levi | The biggest annoyance I have when trying to do functional programming in Python is that many operations on lists and such don't return the result, they just modify their argument in place and return nothing. |
| 22:20.54 | levi | The second biggest annoyance I have is horribly broken lexical closures brought about by the stupid 'assignment is declaration' thing. |
| 22:21.36 | jshipley | still, python seems to fit better into a functional paradigm than any other non functional specific language |
| 22:22.20 | levi | Nah, I actually think Perl does functional programming much better, as much as I hate to admit it. |
| 22:22.34 | Tene_ | Perl does functional programming very well. |
| 22:22.56 | levi | And certainly Ruby does it better than Python too, though I'm sure I'd have a few bones to pick with it, too. |
| 22:24.06 | Tene_ | Ruby has some significant issues. It's not too bad, though. |
| 22:24.13 | jshipley | my perl experience is from before I even knew what functional programming was, and I've never had a desire to learn ruby... |
| 22:24.39 | Tene_ | jshipley: if you're interested, Higher Order Perl is freely available on the web. |
| 22:24.40 | levi | jshipley: Take a look at Higher Order Perl, which I believe is now available online for free. |
| 22:24.49 | levi | I win! |
| 22:24.50 | jshipley | I forgot part of my statement... s/any other non functional specific language/any other non functional specific language that I've seen/ |
| 22:25.24 | levi | Oh, I forgot javascript. It also does functional programming better than Python. |
| 22:25.26 | Tene_ | http://hop.perl.plover.com/book/ |
| 22:25.27 | brac | [Higher-Order Perl] |
| 22:25.46 | jshipley | that would be interesting to look into. I really liked perl back when I learned it, but python has pretty much replaced perl for me |
| 22:26.20 | Tene_ | Perl 6 is going even farther. |
| 22:26.56 | jshipley | really? I don't think that I'd want to try doing anything serious in javascript |
| 22:27.08 | levi | jshipley: Why do you say that? |
| 22:27.19 | jshipley | and if I was looking for something that does better FP than python, I'd probably go with a functional language |
| 22:28.03 | levi | http://javascript.crockford.com/little.html |
| 22:28.04 | brac | [The Little JavaScripter] |
| 22:28.16 | jshipley | levi: why do I say what? are you asking about my javascript comment, or my perl->python comment? |
| 22:28.31 | levi | Your javascript comment. |
| 22:30.16 | jshipley | I'd rather leave javascript for small things in webpages. I know that people have done some really cool stuff with javascript, but it's just not something that I'd want to do |
| 22:31.13 | levi | Well, that's not really the sort of answer I was looking for. What about javascript do you think makes it unsuitable for more than 'small things in webpages'? |
| 22:31.58 | jshipley | I'm not saying that it's unsuitable... I've never seen it used anywhere except the web, although some of the uses I've seen were quite complex, cool, and seemed to be well done. |
| 22:32.28 | jshipley | I'm just saying that I wouldn't personally want to go into it. My interests take a different direction |
| 22:32.47 | levi | OK |
| 22:33.38 | jshipley | Is it used anywhere besides the web? I don't think that I've even heard of a javascript interpreter that wasn't embedded in a browser. |
| 22:33.40 | eggyknap | I'm not sure if it's still in progress, but someone I heard of was writing "PL/js", allowing people to write PostgreSQL stored procedures in javascript. |
| 22:33.40 | levi | It's really set to be one of the most widely used languages of the next generation, though. |
| 22:33.42 | Tene_ | jshipley: there have been some experiments in embedding parrot as a plugin in firefox |
| 22:33.50 | eggyknap | I'm not sure they intended it for serious use. |
| 22:34.29 | levi | ActionScript, the Flash programming language, is also a derivative of ECMAscript, which is the standardized version of Javascript. |
| 22:35.07 | jshipley | I think that javascript is getting a lot better as browser developers get more serious about it and improve the javascript engines. |
| 22:35.23 | craver | javascript is on its way out |
| 22:35.32 | levi | craver: What makes you say that? |
| 22:35.45 | levi | Strikes me as a very off-the-mark observation. |
| 22:36.02 | craver | well, i've been web programming for 15 years |
| 22:37.00 | craver | new developers are not using javascript, they are using ajax, flash/flex, silverlight |
| 22:37.48 | craver | javascript is great if all your users use the same browser, sometimes even the same version of a specific browser. |
| 22:37.53 | levi | Um. |
| 22:38.08 | levi | What do you think the 'j' in ajax stands for? |
| 22:38.09 | jshipley | ajax? asynchronous javascript and xml? it seems to me that ajax impossible to use without javascript |
| 22:38.32 | jshipley | s/ajax impossible/ajax would be impossible/ |
| 22:39.19 | craver | ajax moved client side business logic to the server. |
| 22:39.45 | jshipley | levi mentioned flash a few lines back, and I'd prefer that silverlight disappears :) |
| 22:40.18 | craver | anything M$ related needs to disappear. |
| 22:40.34 | sjansen | jshipley: You're forgetting about VBscript. Who needs Javascript when you can use an abandoned MS only browser scripting language? |
| 22:41.55 | levi | Okay, so Silverlight 1.0 uses Javascript. Flash/Flex use ActionScript, which is an ECMAscript variant (basically Javascript). AJAX uses javascript. |
| 22:41.59 | craver | admits to developing more than 1 site using vbscript and asp 3.0 |
| 22:42.01 | levi | I'm not seeing any lack of Javascript here. |
| 22:42.04 | jshipley | I disagree with craver that everything MS needs to disappear, but I'd say that anything MS that pushes us further away from web standards and compatibility should disappear |
| 22:42.36 | RyanE | jshipley: for that to happen, MS would basically have to disappear... :) |
| 22:42.52 | sjansen | As for good Javascript interpreters outside of browsers, SpiderMonkey and JavaScriptCore are both independent enough that they can be used in other applications. In fact a couple of GNOME projects are doing just that. Most likely it's only a matter of time before V8 gets similar treatment. |
| 22:43.20 | craver | well, i guess if you look at it that way perl, python, java, .net, everything is the same language right.. it's all 1s and 0s |
| 22:43.24 | levi | There are several companies investing a lot of money right now in making better Javascript interpreters. |
| 22:43.26 | *** join/#utah romanovic (i=romanovi@wireless469.wireless.utah.edu) |
| 22:43.51 | sjansen | As for the argument that AJAX has replaced Javascript... that's just plain silly. |
| 22:44.30 | craver | ajax allowed web developers to reduce the amount of client side javascript. |
| 22:44.34 | levi | craver: The difference between Javascript and ActionScript is WAY smaller than the difference between perl and python, and the differences are only getting smaller. |
| 22:44.47 | RyanE | Bah. C was good enough for us, it should be good enough for all of you, forever. :) |
| 22:45.04 | RyanE | and you kids get off my lawn! |
| 22:47.18 | levi | craver: I'll agree with you that the way that javascript is used for web programming is changing significantly. But the amount of javascript out there is only going up. |
| 22:47.32 | craver | on the client side it is going down |
| 22:47.44 | levi | No, it's not. |
| 22:47.47 | RyanE | craver: not for 'live apps'. |
| 22:47.59 | levi | Libraries like jQuery and Prototype are showing up everywhere now. |
| 22:48.03 | craver | you are wrong |
| 22:48.11 | RyanE | heh. *that*'s funny... |
| 22:48.19 | craver | jQuery has been around for years |
| 22:48.19 | levi | craver: You are blind to reality, apparently. |
| 22:48.30 | levi | Yes, it has. |
| 22:48.49 | RyanE | time was, I could run my browser with javascript turned off. Try that now, you get a *lot* of non-functionality... |
| 22:49.06 | craver | really, try it |
| 22:49.13 | levi | But it's on freaking whitehouse.gov now. It's everywhere. |
| 22:49.16 | RyanE | there's a *lot more* javascript on the web now than even a year ago. |
| 22:49.44 | craver | haha that's because anything governement related is 10 years behind in technology |
| 22:50.15 | jshipley | I don't even bother surfing with javascript turned off... I like to surf with flashblock though. |
| 22:50.20 | RyanE | so, are those blinders comfortable? I've heard masks are all the rage, I didn't know blinders were. |
| 22:51.01 | levi | Clearly Apple and Google and Apache and Adobe are all investing lots of money in Javascript because it's a dead end and dying soon. |
| 22:52.07 | craver | MS, Adobe, Redhat must be wasting money investing in non-javascript technologies then |
| 22:52.10 | sjansen | craver: Your going to have to come on with some very solid numbers to prove you opinion. From where the rest of us are sitting, you're up in the night smoking something. |
| 22:52.34 | levi | So, I'm not a gigantic Javascript fan, and I'm not terribly happy about it gaining so much traction, but that's just the way it is. |
| 22:52.40 | craver | well, guess i've been around too long then |
| 22:53.14 | sjansen | Most of us have been around since the birth of the Web. You're not going to get anywhere claiming more experience. |
| 22:53.20 | RyanE | I certainly don't think it's dominating in anything other than the web world, but in the web world, Javascript and Actionscript are kicking major butt. |
| 22:53.29 | jshipley | just because javascript is everywhere and the web loves it doesn't mean that working on other technologies is a waste |
| 22:53.31 | craver | really, how old are you guys? |
| 22:54.09 | craver | cause from here it sounds like i'm talking to a bunch of little kids |
| 22:54.16 | levi | I was on the web when Mosaic was state-of-the-art. |
| 22:54.18 | RyanE | 40+ physically, about 13 if you look at maturity. |
| 22:54.24 | RyanE | :P |
| 22:54.28 | eightyeight | 31 here |
| 22:54.45 | eightyeight | is enjoying just watching the text fly by |
| 22:55.16 | RyanE | and how old is the craver? and what exactly are you craving? |
| 22:55.36 | jshipley | well, since the web was begun in 1989 and released in 1992, I'd have to say... at least 16? |
| 22:56.06 | sjansen | craver: Most of the most vocal channel members are over 25. I'd put the median age at about 30 for the most vocal. |
| 22:56.25 | jlp_work | and some of us lurkers are mid-40s |
| 22:56.45 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanr@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 22:57.22 | sjansen | craver: So far we've learned that you hold an opinion most of use find obviously wrong, and when challenged you resort to calling us childish. |
| 22:58.05 | eightyeight | isn't ajax javascript? even if the server is doing the logic, the client still needs to intepret a great deal |
| 22:58.12 | sjansen | Not exactly a good way to establish your credentials. Although I am interested what made you think we were a bunch of kids. Of were you just inventing your own reality again? |
| 22:58.22 | craver | well sjansen, why don't you read your previous post "you're up in the night smoking something." |
| 22:58.31 | craver | doesn't that sound like a personal attack. |
| 22:58.44 | levi | And we all know adults never make personal attacks. :) |
| 22:58.51 | jlp_work | he he he |
| 22:58.51 | sjansen | craver: First time on IRC then? |
| 22:58.59 | craver | piss off |
| 22:59.03 | sjansen | Welcome. Let us show you around. |
| 22:59.08 | sjansen | ~lart craver |
| 22:59.08 | ibot | shoots craver in his sleep |
| 22:59.09 | craver | i've been on IRC since it's birth |
| 22:59.17 | sjansen | That's ibot. She does fun stuff if you ask nicely. |
| 22:59.20 | RyanE | Yeah, when you say Javascript isn't being used by new programmers, and is being replaced by 3 things, two of which use Javascript / ECMAScript... Not a great start. |
| 22:59.26 | sjansen | ~bzfrag craver |
| 22:59.27 | ibot | ACTION destroys craver with a guided missile |
| 22:59.35 | sjansen | We've taught her a few tricks. |
| 22:59.41 | craver | Uptime: 2 days, 2 hours and 17 minutes |
| 22:59.41 | sjansen | ~travolta craver |
| 22:59.42 | ibot | ACTION replaces craver with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 22:59.48 | craver | Sysinfo for 'craver-kubuntu': Linux 2.6.24-23-generic running KDE 3.5.10, CPU: AMDAthlon64X2DualCore4800+ at 1000 MHz (2001 bogomips), , RAM: 1784/2013MB, 138 proc's, 2.2d up |
| 22:59.48 | sjansen | That's one of my favorites. |
| 22:59.50 | craver | i know a few tricks too |
| 22:59.53 | craver | Sysinfo for 'craver-kubuntu': Linux 2.6.24-23-generic running KDE 3.5.10, CPU: AMDAthlon64X2DualCore4800+ at 1000 MHz (2001 bogomips), , RAM: 1784/2013MB, 138 proc's, 2.2d up |
| 22:59.57 | craver | Sysinfo for 'craver-kubuntu': Linux 2.6.24-23-generic running KDE 3.5.10, CPU: AMDAthlon64X2DualCore4800+ at 1000 MHz (2001 bogomips), , RAM: 1784/2013MB, 138 proc's, 2.2d up |
| 23:00.07 | craver | i can flood the channel with shit too |
| 23:00.15 | sjansen | ~language craver |
| 23:00.16 | ibot | ACTION grabs craver by the ear and washes craver's mouth out with soap |
| 23:00.16 | eightyeight | you won't last long |
| 23:00.23 | jlp_work | craver: now you have me curious... I've been involved in irc since 1989... what handle did you use in the early days? I don't recall seeing "craver" in #twilightzone |
| 23:00.26 | levi | craver: So, you say RedHat and Adobe are not investing in Javascript. From what I can see, they're both heavily invested in javascript, since Adobe does ActionScript (which is based on ECMAscript) and RedHat does GWT, which also relies on Javascript running on the browser. |
| 23:00.30 | RyanE | So how old are you, then...? Who's acting like the child now? |
| 23:00.39 | jshipley | of course, when craver says that he can flood the channel too... he means that he will start flooding the channel |
| 23:00.46 | jshipley | it's not like anybody else has been flooding |
| 23:00.52 | craver | thats cause i spent my time on warez-950 |
| 23:01.27 | craver | praise BaLtHoR |
| 23:02.31 | levi | See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript#Dialects |
| 23:02.52 | jlp_work | craver: hmmm, doesn't sound familiar. oh well. |
| 23:02.57 | eightyeight | craver: emotions aside, most of us are interested in your claim that javascript is on it's way out. do you have anything to back it up? |
| 23:02.58 | jlp_work | slips back into lurk mode |
| 23:03.11 | eightyeight | s/it's/its/ |
| 23:04.40 | craver | let me change my statement then, i should have said Pure javascript |
| 23:05.04 | RyanE | yeah, if you mean 'hand-generated' Javascript, and don't count Prototype and other libraries, you might have a point. |
| 23:05.14 | sjansen | And how exactly do you define pure Javascript? |
| 23:05.15 | craver | yes, that's what i said |
| 23:05.30 | craver | <script language='javascript'> |
| 23:05.34 | craver | </script> |
| 23:05.39 | RyanE | uhm, no, that's not what you said. |
| 23:05.54 | sjansen | Because if you mean "no libraries, only inside a browser" that hardly seems a fair comparison to any other mainstream language. |
| 23:06.16 | craver | pretty sure i said client side many times. |
| 23:06.27 | RyanE | right, but libraries are also client side. |
| 23:06.27 | JoshH | this is a real nerd fight |
| 23:06.35 | sjansen | Which is clearly increasing in use, so we must be missing something. |
| 23:06.36 | craver | depends on the library |
| 23:06.41 | RyanE | JoshH: yeah, but what else you going to do on a Thursday afternoon... |
| 23:06.56 | eightyeight | RyanE: work would be nice, but i'm too distracted. :) |
| 23:07.20 | craver | probably shouldn't be on irc if you have work to do |
| 23:07.47 | RyanE | compiling... :) |
| 23:07.52 | eightyeight | heh |
| 23:07.53 | jshipley | I'm generally up for a good language conversation, even if my biases and misconceptions sometimes get in the way, even on a Thursday afternoon |
| 23:08.27 | jshipley | and now for the obligatory xkcd reference: http://xkcd.com/303/ |
| 23:08.28 | brac | [xkcd - A Webcomic - Compiling] |
| 23:10.04 | craver | new subject: any packet radio guys in there? |
| 23:10.08 | RyanE | so craver, you never mentioned your age, mr. experience... you're probably what, 32 or 33? |
| 23:10.43 | Jayce^ | ahh jesse, just doesn't get it |
| 23:10.53 | RyanE | Jayce^: and this is news how? |
| 23:11.04 | levi | Jayce^: What's this in regards to? |
| 23:11.40 | Jayce^ | levi, I got drug into a discussion with him in twitter because he was going off on bluehost |
| 23:11.54 | craver | haha bluehost sucks |
| 23:11.55 | Jayce^ | because bluehost doesn't have a public twitter account for customer service |
| 23:12.12 | eightyeight | craver: Jayce^ works for bluehost |
| 23:12.15 | levi | craver: Great, now Jayce^ hates you too. |
| 23:12.19 | RyanE | so did he get dropped from the Planet feed? |
| 23:12.23 | RyanE | (jstay) |
| 23:12.24 | Jayce^ | and we're losing money by not proactively searching out people who complain on twitter |
| 23:12.27 | Jayce^ | dunno |
| 23:12.30 | sjansen | craver: Piss off the ops. Brilliant! |
| 23:12.31 | craver | Jayce^ is Matt still presidnet |
| 23:12.34 | craver | president |
| 23:12.36 | Jayce^ | yup |
| 23:12.43 | Jayce^ | of course, his money runs the place |
| 23:12.53 | craver | do you still build all your servers in house in a non static free environment |
| 23:12.59 | Jayce^ | jesse doesn't seem to understand how "discount" hosting |
| 23:13.02 | JoshH | no twitter? what kind of company is that!!! |
| 23:13.04 | Jayce^ | beats me, I dont' build them |
| 23:13.06 | craver | do they still go down on a daily basis |
| 23:13.28 | Jayce^ | nah, we've got about as good of backbones as you can get for UT |
| 23:13.43 | craver | who was that gigantic did that worked in support and was ripping the company off.. |
| 23:13.46 | craver | does he still work there. |
| 23:13.46 | eightyeight | wonders if craver is mheath in disquise |
| 23:14.00 | RyanE | eightyeight: heh. |
| 23:14.09 | Jayce^ | eightyeight, nice |
| 23:14.10 | sjansen | Better yet, bucky. |
| 23:14.12 | craver | might have good backbone but the servers were crap. |
| 23:14.26 | RyanE | o holy cow. I haven't heard the name bucky in way too long... |
| 23:14.28 | sjansen | And unstable teen who will eventually threaten to drive up here and beat me up. |
| 23:14.30 | levi | eightyeight: No mheath wouldn't claim to be old... unless he was trying to throw us off! |
| 23:15.01 | levi | eightyeight: But no, there hasn't been a single mention of the Marines. |
| 23:15.07 | jlp_work | whatever happened to mheath? didn't he join the marines or something? |
| 23:15.08 | sjansen | Deep in his heart, I'm sure craver just wants attention and a hug. |
| 23:15.10 | eightyeight | levi: heh. good point |
| 23:15.19 | eightyeight | ~hug craver |
| 23:15.20 | ibot | ACTION jumps into craver's lap and huggles and *hugs* craver |
| 23:15.21 | RyanE | sjansen: at least the first of those. |
| 23:15.24 | craver | does Matt still drive his Viper to work? |
| 23:15.36 | Jayce^ | at times, has is other cars too |
| 23:15.38 | levi | I'd drive my Viper to work if I had one. |
| 23:16.05 | JoshH | Jayce^, what connections does bluehost have? |
| 23:16.26 | craver | i worked for bluehost several years ago, back then it was a hackjob |
| 23:16.35 | Jayce^ | I dont' know all, but they have two major pipes on different nets for each brand |
| 23:16.47 | craver | mm only two? |
| 23:16.49 | fozzmoo | There's one thing I've learned... and I think I learned it late - a lot of really successful companies start off as "hack jobs." |
| 23:16.52 | Jayce^ | craver, that could be said about most every UT company :) at least all that I've been with |
| 23:16.57 | craver | are they still hosting out of the old WP building |
| 23:17.00 | Jayce^ | nope |
| 23:17.06 | Jayce^ | we had that place maxed out |
| 23:17.11 | RyanE | fozzmoo: amen to that |
| 23:17.34 | craver | yea, i was there when they maxed out the power in the server room. |
| 23:17.39 | craver | several times. |
| 23:17.44 | Jayce^ | heck, their main billing crap is still a hack job, that's why they hired me |
| 23:17.56 | Jayce^ | craver, *everybody* in the WP campus with a computer has done that |
| 23:18.13 | Jayce^ | heck, and UNTD that was a weekly thing, and come summertime, dang.. |
| 23:18.26 | Jayce^ | and we only had development hardware there |
| 23:18.29 | fozzmoo | A story I seem to tell all too often: I interviewed with a company in Provo in 1999 for a Perl job. Walked through a room full of kids sitting at folding tables. They gave me an office to take a "Perl test" in. I walked out 10 minutes later. They said, "Is there a problem?" "No, I'm done." |
| 23:18.40 | craver | still has 60 domains registered with bluehost |
| 23:19.01 | fozzmoo | They called me back the next day asking for a second interview.I declined because I perceived it to be a "hack job." |
| 23:19.04 | craver | but they are all jacked up because they transfered away from godaddy |
| 23:19.09 | fozzmoo | MyComputer.com was the company. Now it's Omniture. |
| 23:19.29 | Jayce^ | craver, yeah, now there's a hack job :) |
| 23:19.41 | eightyeight | sjansen: levi: i guess the javascript discussion remains unresolved |
| 23:20.06 | Jayce^ | was quite happy to hear that they view us as their top competitor :) and we haven't even pushed that space.. |
| 23:20.11 | craver | well, one day Matt decided he didn't like godaddys customer service so he transfered all the domains to yahoo or some crap. |
| 23:20.14 | Jayce^ | they were just dinking with us so much |
| 23:20.15 | *** join/#utah eminentsedition (n=jgordon@64.0.29.254.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 23:20.24 | Jayce^ | no, built a new registrar |
| 23:20.40 | JoshH | Jayce^: who views bluehost as top competitor? |
| 23:20.46 | Jayce^ | godaddy |
| 23:20.49 | JoshH | ah |
| 23:20.52 | sjansen | eightyeight: You can't resolve anything when one party is going to rely on proof by authority and no one else recognizes their authority. |
| 23:21.06 | craver | still using c channel? |
| 23:21.07 | eminentsedition | I need something to replace altirus that is open source any suggestions? |
| 23:21.40 | craver | the domains went somewhere before they created their own registrar, maybe that's how they got jacked up. |
| 23:21.46 | fozzmoo | googles altirus |
| 23:21.47 | levi | eightyeight: Well, only unresolved in the sense that craver has not joined the consensus. |
| 23:21.49 | eightyeight | sjansen: i can rely on ethos when the source is reliable |
| 23:22.01 | eminentsedition | Sorry it is a ghosting program. |
| 23:22.05 | levi | eightyeight: And I'm okay with that. :) |
| 23:22.06 | craver | consensus? |
| 23:22.57 | levi | craver: You're the only one who believes Javascript is dying or something. |
| 23:23.01 | fozzmoo | eminentsedition: Did you Google? |
| 23:23.08 | fozzmoo | There's a lot out there if you just Google "open source ghost" |
| 23:23.12 | eminentsedition | Yeah I looked at FOG |
| 23:23.15 | RyanE | unless you take an unrealistically narrow view of what Javscript is. |
| 23:23.31 | fozzmoo | eminentsedition: g4l? |
| 23:23.54 | craver | client side "browser only" javascript is dying |
| 23:24.04 | craver | i'm sticking to that. |
| 23:24.23 | sjansen | eminentsedition: Never used it, but a friend used to love SystemImager. |
| 23:24.29 | fozzmoo | craver: yeah. I think you're on crack. |
| 23:24.31 | craver | other languages that may have evolved from javascript might be increasing though |
| 23:24.33 | levi | craver: What's "browser only" mean? |
| 23:24.43 | RyanE | craver: I suppose everyone has 'em... |
| 23:24.44 | craver | <script language='javascript'> |
| 23:24.57 | fozzmoo | craver: Are you saying it's dying in favor of Flash? |
| 23:24.58 | craver | that's what i mean by client side |
| 23:25.13 | craver | flash and several others |
| 23:25.17 | sjansen | craver: So your argument is that "people are increasingly using libraries with Javascript"? |
| 23:25.27 | levi | Okay, so I still you're incredibly wrong. |
| 23:25.49 | Jayce^ | sounds like a Jesse argument all over |
| 23:25.51 | levi | And I'll bet my statement about you not joining the consensus the rest of us have still holds. |
| 23:26.05 | craver | what consensus? did i miss something |
| 23:26.07 | fozzmoo | eminentsedition: http://clonezilla.sourceforge.net/ |
| 23:26.12 | brac | [Clonezilla Homepage] |
| 23:26.28 | fozzmoo | eminentsedition: http://sourceforge.net/projects/g4l |
| 23:26.28 | levi | craver: The consensus the rest of us have that javascript on the client side in the browser is not dying. |
| 23:26.29 | brac | [SourceForge.net: G4L] |
| 23:26.58 | craver | so, everyone here still puts <script language='javascript'> in the top of their html pages? |
| 23:27.23 | fozzmoo | Sounds like the consensus that man-made global warming is real. |
| 23:27.47 | levi | fozzmoo: Are you not joining this consensus, then? |
| 23:27.53 | unum | fozzmoo: among scientist that aren't paid by oil company there does seem to be that consensus |
| 23:27.58 | RyanE | so you're arguing that ONLY using that particular script tag contains the entirety of 'client-side javascript use'? |
| 23:28.00 | sjansen | craver: Yup, pretty much. Or when browsing, if Javascript is turned off we increasingly see stuff break. |
| 23:28.06 | unum | levi: I agree with you |
| 23:28.08 | eightyeight | reminds me of the story of jim in marching band |
| 23:28.11 | Jayce^ | unum, you mean scientists paid by the govt :) |
| 23:28.12 | RyanE | I think most people just include the library, which itself has a similar tag. |
| 23:28.17 | fozzmoo | 59% of a recent poll said they don't believe man is a major factor in climate change. |
| 23:28.27 | fozzmoo | No, I believe JavaScript is alive and kickin. |
| 23:28.33 | unum | fozzmoo: among climate scientists? |
| 23:28.46 | elg | ok, collective brainstorm, i need your help |
| 23:28.48 | levi | fozzmoo: Okay, so why did you muddy things up by dragging climate change into it? :P |
| 23:28.54 | jshipley | you could make a similar argument (I'm certainly not going to make it) that html is dying because people don't hand-write it as much and tend to use dynamic means of creating web pages |
| 23:29.00 | fozzmoo | climate scientists are like any scientist: They'll take whatever stance will give them research money. |
| 23:29.12 | unum | just read an article about that |
| 23:29.13 | elg | my extended family wants to have some kind of online sign up form for times to go help my grandpa |
| 23:29.22 | sjansen | unum: Have you see the numbers? There's a direct correlation between the introdution of Javascript and rising sea levels. |
| 23:29.34 | unum | sjansen: thanks. I didn't realize that |
| 23:29.35 | craver | dynamic like dreamweaver or dynamic like flex or silverlight |
| 23:29.35 | eightyeight | sjansen: hahaha |
| 23:29.38 | levi | elg: Use Adobe Flex! It's THE FUTURE! ;) |
| 23:29.47 | elg | some kind of online calendar sharing would fit the bill perfectly. but we're talking about a lot of people who may or may not have google accounts, so gCal probably won't work |
| 23:29.51 | RyanE | yeah, HTML is on it's way out, replaced by XHTML |
| 23:30.00 | fozzmoo | RyanE: To be replaced by HTML5 |
| 23:30.11 | jshipley | no, I thought it was pirates... http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/001857.php |
| 23:30.11 | RyanE | fozzmoo: dang... once again, behind the times. |
| 23:30.12 | brac | [seanbonner: Less Pirates = Global Warming] |
| 23:30.12 | levi | (Isn't HTML5 HTML?) |
| 23:30.14 | craver | uses Flex also |
| 23:30.36 | elg | uh, will flex build me a community calendar in 1 hour? |
| 23:30.39 | unum | I've only ever used javascript |
| 23:30.48 | unum | for client side scripting I mean |
| 23:30.50 | levi | elg: If you're awesome enough. |
| 23:30.51 | RyanE | levi: no, because you don't just put in an <html> tag alone. |
| 23:30.52 | jshipley | couldn't they just use a google calendar? |
| 23:30.53 | fozzmoo | is still stuck doing server-side script for most everything. |
| 23:30.56 | sjansen | craver drinks water. Milk is on decline! |
| 23:31.00 | craver | feels sorry for unum |
| 23:31.11 | unum | craver: why? |
| 23:31.21 | craver | i don't drink water or milk... Mt. Dew or Redbull for me |
| 23:31.28 | elg | jshipley: could, if we could shepherd all of them into gmail accounts and add them to a shared calendar |
| 23:31.33 | RyanE | water is on the decline! |
| 23:31.48 | neybar | lets stop making water, no one drinks it anyway |
| 23:31.51 | elg | the ideal solution would be something like google calendar but without the gmail accounts (i.e. basic or digest auth) |
| 23:31.55 | unum | you can use google apps with any email address |
| 23:32.02 | craver | oh.. is the earth only 59% water now? |
| 23:32.09 | jshipley | elg: do they all need write access? I thought there was a way to make google calendars publicly viewable without requiring google accounts |
| 23:32.09 | eightyeight | RyanE: it's because of man made global warming |
| 23:32.13 | unum | you don't need a gmail account, but I digress... |
| 23:32.14 | levi | unum: Yes, but you still have to sign up with google. |
| 23:32.24 | elg | jshipley: yes, they all need to be able to sign up for times |
| 23:32.26 | unum | levi: true |
| 23:32.36 | elg | you can make public calendars, but they don't have guest write access |
| 23:32.48 | unum | there are webapps that do calendaring |
| 23:32.53 | unum | I've never found one I like |
| 23:33.01 | eightyeight | unum: that don't use javascript? |
| 23:33.09 | craver | I still drive me gigantic jeep around that gets 5 mpg and don't give a crap about global warming. |
| 23:33.13 | jshipley | it seems to me that no matter how you do the webapp... they'd have to have some kind of account for it whether you built it yourself or used an existing app |
| 23:33.14 | unum | eightyeight: you mean since it's on the way out :) |
| 23:33.20 | eightyeight | just plays the devil's advocate |
| 23:33.36 | elg | jshipley: if someone has already written a web calendar that you can just protect with a simple .htaccess, I don't |
| 23:33.46 | elg | but that would be too obvious |
| 23:33.52 | eightyeight | craver: you may not care, but my kids will |
| 23:33.56 | unum | I've used such a thing |
| 23:34.02 | craver | i dont' have kids so i don't care |
| 23:34.05 | elg | web calendar developers have to include smtp, imap, etc. |
| 23:34.16 | levi | Look who's Mr. Mature now. |
| 23:34.22 | craver | have you been outside this week... we need some warm weather. |
| 23:34.25 | eightyeight | craver: i didn't say you did. i said my kids will care |
| 23:34.31 | elg | it's called winter |
| 23:34.47 | craver | whatever it is, it's on the decline |
| 23:34.49 | levi | craver: Yeah, and we need more of your 5 mpg Jeep's pollution, too! |
| 23:35.08 | RyanE | elg: http://www.linux.com/feature/155202 Don't know if it'll help, but might be worth checking out. I'm sure they all suck. |
| 23:35.11 | unum | darn I no longer have it installed |
| 23:35.14 | jshipley | elg: there might be a simple calendar out there somewhere that's not a full-featured web-based outlook clone |
| 23:35.17 | levi | What we need is a storm to break up the inversion. |
| 23:35.19 | unum | I had a really simple one I used to use that I liked |
| 23:35.24 | unum | but that server burst into flames |
| 23:35.29 | elg | :( |
| 23:35.31 | eightyeight | levi: we're having one in ogden. i can breathe a bit better |
| 23:35.59 | craver | theres more CO2 introduced into the atmosphere in a single volcanic eruption than all the cars in the world have ever emitted. |
| 23:36.00 | levi | It was raining down in Orem earlier today, but I'm not sure if there was enough to really clear much of the air. |
| 23:36.00 | eightyeight | had rain last night, and most of the day |
| 23:36.13 | RyanE | craver: [citation needed] |
| 23:36.18 | eightyeight | craver: got a source to back that up? |
| 23:36.21 | unum | http://sourceforge.net/projects/webcalendar/ <- i think I just used this |
| 23:36.22 | brac | [SourceForge.net: WebCalendar] |
| 23:36.24 | craver | yes, looking for it |
| 23:36.49 | elg | jshipley,unum: thanks, I think webcalendar may be a hit. reading up now |
| 23:36.50 | eightyeight | craver: one thing you'll learn quickly here, is if you make a statement, be prepared to back it |
| 23:37.04 | elg | it probably sucks, but if it does the bare minimum it'll be enough :) |
| 23:37.29 | elg | her latest idea is to put up a pdf web form and "then have everyone pull it up and fill in their name for when theyâre available. When itâs full we print it out and put it on Momâs wall." |
| 23:37.32 | RyanE | elg: that review I posted does include WebCalendar |
| 23:37.39 | elg | she doesn't get that you can't edit the pdf online |
| 23:37.48 | sjansen | eightyeight: Why should he care? He doesn't have kids, so he doesn't have to worry about them living under the shame of their father being ridiculed on IRC for making up facts. |
| 23:37.54 | elg | RyanE: oh, it was you i meant to thank |
| 23:38.00 | elg | not jshipley |
| 23:38.03 | RyanE | no problemo. |
| 23:38.06 | elg | takes jshipley's trophy and gives it to RyanE |
| 23:38.12 | levi | Well, certainly craver didn't make up that fact himself. |
| 23:38.17 | craver | Our studies here at Kilauea show that the eruption discharges between 8,000 and 30,000 metric tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere each day. |
| 23:38.21 | RyanE | elg: you should just make an open windows share on your server, drop the editable PDF on there... :) |
| 23:38.23 | sjansen | ~steal RyanE's trophy |
| 23:38.24 | ibot | ACTION grabs RyanE's trophy and gives it to sjansen |
| 23:38.47 | levi | craver: http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/02/volcanos-emit-more-co2.php |
| 23:38.48 | brac | [A Few Things Ill Considered : Volcanos Emit More CO2] |
| 23:38.54 | jshipley | ~lart sjansen stealing the trophy from RyanE |
| 23:38.54 | ibot | blasts sjansen stealing the trophy from RyanE to oblivion with a kamehameha wave |
| 23:39.02 | jshipley | ~lart sjansen for stealing the trophy from RyanE |
| 23:39.02 | ibot | breaks out the Hoover and sucks up sjansen for stealing the trophy from RyanE |
| 23:39.07 | jshipley | ah, that's it |
| 23:39.15 | jlp_work | elg: http://www.linuxlinks.com/Web/Productivity_Tools/Calendar/ <- has a list of calendar software, might be something worthwhile on there |
| 23:39.31 | RyanE | jlp_work: you just want an elg trophy... |
| 23:39.36 | jlp_work | :-) |
| 23:39.47 | levi | (I can find random facts on the internet, too!) |
| 23:40.48 | sjansen | levi: Bah, where's the adventure in that. Anyone can use Google. It takes real _courage_ to invent fact. |
| 23:40.54 | jshipley | hmm, I tried looking at snopes, but didn't find anything |
| 23:41.06 | jlp_work | elg: looks like VCalendar might be worth looking at |
| 23:41.22 | craver | what percentage human C02 emissions do vehicles make up? |
| 23:41.43 | craver | cause i specifically said vehicle emissions |
| 23:41.48 | elg | heh. "Unlike any other online calendars, VCalendar comes with source code in multiple programming languages: PHP, ASP and ASP.NET (C#); with potential for adding more technologies in the future." |
| 23:41.50 | craver | not including power plants |
| 23:42.44 | eightyeight | chopping away at branches |
| 23:42.50 | eightyeight | get to the root |
| 23:42.56 | jlp_work | elg: hmmm, on second thought, looks like VCalendar is $250. ow |
| 23:43.03 | jlp_work | it looked pretty, though |
| 23:43.09 | elg | but it uses several languages! |
| 23:43.12 | elg | that has to be worth it |
| 23:43.30 | craver | come on.. no packet radio guys here? thought you were all old people that know everything? |
| 23:43.48 | elg | we know everything, so we have no need for packets |
| 23:43.56 | craver | no APRS? |
| 23:44.24 | eightyeight | if the packets aren't delivered by avian courier, then you're wasting your time |
| 23:44.24 | jlp_work | craver: no hardware for APRS :-( |
| 23:44.53 | eightyeight | thanks sjansen for that rfc |
| 23:45.07 | sjansen | ~steal eightyeight's RFCs |
| 23:45.08 | ibot | ACTION grabs eightyeight's RFCs and gives it to sjansen |
| 23:45.08 | levi | So, let's say that nature has a set of sources and sinks for CO2, such as volcanos as sources and rainforests as sinks. Hypothetically, let's say that human beings produce half as much CO2 as volcanos per day. What effect, over time, will humans producing that extra CO2 and massively reducing the rainforest area have on total atmosphereic CO2? |
| 23:45.12 | jlp_work | but I've been looking at the TNC-X |
| 23:45.16 | high_roller | craver: I'd like to get into APRS, but haven't had the time nor money for equipment |
| 23:45.37 | sjansen | ~steal levi's CO2 |
| 23:45.37 | ibot | ACTION grabs levi's CO2 and gives it to sjansen |
| 23:45.40 | jlp_work | and I don't really want to dedicate my radio to APRS |
| 23:46.09 | levi | It is not necessary for human CO2 output to be the greatest source in order for human CO2 output to have a measurable effect on CO2 levels. |
| 23:46.15 | eightyeight | ~bash sjansen |
| 23:46.16 | ibot | ACTION beats sjansen with ksh |
| 23:46.16 | jlp_work | the TM-D710 looks pretty hot... but expensive |
| 23:46.28 | eightyeight | ibot: that was counter productive |
| 23:46.59 | sjansen | levi: Uhm, in case you haven't noticed... having been slapped down a second time, craver now wishes to discuss something else. Get with the program already. *sheesh* |
| 23:48.17 | eightyeight | sjansen: i'm impressed with his tenacity to stick with the channel though |
| 23:48.18 | fozzmoo | There are certainly many natural sources of CO2 that people forget about. |
| 23:48.37 | RyanE | craver: APRS is on it's way out. |
| 23:48.43 | levi | fozzmoo: I was deliberately simplifying my model to make a point. |
| 23:48.47 | sjansen | Why hasn't Nancy Grace done more about CO2? |
| 23:49.03 | fozzmoo | sjansen: When they kill CO2, I'm sure she'll devote a month to it. |
| 23:49.06 | jlp_work | RyanE: :-) |
| 23:49.38 | unum | earlier today I received an email that quoted scripture to support the fact that global warming is a lie. there fore global warming is a lie. |
| 23:49.53 | levi | unum: Nice! |
| 23:50.05 | RyanE | jlp_work: I was actually just a *little* being honest. When you have a phone that does GPS and EDGE network, you can do most of the APRS functionality without packet radio... |
| 23:50.07 | MrTeye | I have a scooba tank full of CO2 for sale. |
| 23:50.12 | *** part/#utah pelaofeliz (n=PelaoFel@67.108.236.230) |
| 23:50.18 | sjansen | And unum comes from behind to win it all! |
| 23:50.25 | sjansen | ~reward unum |
| 23:50.26 | ibot | ACTION gives unum a brownie point. And a *kick* in the pants! |
| 23:50.32 | high_roller | RyanE: until the cell network gives out :) |
| 23:50.42 | jlp_work | RyanE: true, but high_roller beat me to the punch |
| 23:50.47 | eightyeight | unum: what's the scripture? |
| 23:50.49 | RyanE | yeah, but then the old farts will save us with their radios. |
| 23:51.01 | high_roller | RyanE: its happened before |
| 23:51.03 | jlp_work | and their APRS :-) |
| 23:51.04 | RyanE | oh crap, I'm an old fart and I don't do HAM... We're SCREWED! |
| 23:51.25 | eightyeight | ham radio is on its way out. oh, wait... |
| 23:51.27 | sjansen | hands eightyeight a sarcasm detector |
| 23:51.49 | RyanE | eightyeight: that may be true, but HAM is not on it's way out... Delicious, delicious HAM... Mmmmmm.... |
| 23:52.06 | fozzmoo | drools |
| 23:52.18 | jlp_work | RyanE: I observed that APRS was heavily used during the LOTOJA bike race |
| 23:52.30 | eightyeight | sjansen: sarcasm and text has never worked well for me. just ask redbeard2 |
| 23:52.44 | *** join/#utah Rolcol (n=Rolcol@unaffiliated/rolcol) |
| 23:52.46 | redbeard2 | eightyeight: what sarcasm? |
| 23:52.50 | eightyeight | i take things too literally |
| 23:53.03 | eightyeight | redbeard2: if you have already forgotten, then it's best left alone. :) |
| 23:53.15 | eightyeight | for my sake |
| 23:53.58 | redbeard2 | eightyeight: i hate to tell you this... |
| 23:54.02 | redbeard2 | but that was sarcasm |
| 23:54.21 | eightyeight | touche |
| 23:54.26 | sjansen | heh |
| 23:54.32 | redbeard2 | i don't think you're using that word right |
| 23:54.50 | sjansen | And the award for "Expert Use of 'touche'" goes too... unum! |
| 23:54.58 | sjansen | What an upset. No one saw that one coming! |
| 23:55.15 | redbeard2 | i wasn't expecting the kind of spanish inquisition |
| 23:55.19 | sjansen | I can only guess that unum's previous performance was so strong it overwhelmed the judges. |
| 23:55.30 | eightyeight | nerds |
| 23:55.36 | levi | So, out of curiosity, I found that the EPA estimates that 29% of the total U.S. greenhouse gas emission comes from transportation sources. |
| 23:55.36 | sjansen | No doubt this award will be debated for years to come. |
| 23:56.02 | eightyeight | it's rigged |
| 23:56.09 | eightyeight | levi: source? |
| 23:56.22 | levi | http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/basicinfo.htm |
| 23:56.23 | brac | [Basic Information | Transportation and Climate | US EPA] |
| 23:56.26 | fozzmoo | levi: I wonder if that includes the number one greenhouse gas, the one nobody talks about, the one that's goign to kill us all!!!! |
| 23:56.31 | fozzmoo | WATER VAPOR! |
| 23:56.32 | unum | I don't know the last I used that word |
| 23:56.32 | sjansen | eightyeight: I told you you should have done the nude scene. |
| 23:57.01 | eightyeight | "Transportation is also the largest end-use source of CO2". nice |
| 23:57.08 | sjansen | No one will take you seriously on IRC until you've done at least one nude scene. |
| 23:57.24 | fozzmoo | 0<-< |
| 23:57.27 | fozzmoo | There. Nude scene. |
| 23:57.44 | jlp_work | gasp! |
| 23:57.47 | levi | is shocked. |
| 23:57.48 | jlp_work | shields eyes |
| 23:58.00 | Heartsbane | is blind. |
| 23:58.01 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: at least append an 'NSFW'. geez |
| 23:58.04 | RyanE | hey, at least it's not harleypig. |
| 23:59.03 | eightyeight | recalls the thong, and wishes we wasn't on irc that day |