IRC log for #utah on 20081231

00:18.08redbeard2this is interesting. synergy has been working fine over the wireless until today, when a second access point on the same ssid was installed. now it dies after a few minutes of inactivity.
00:18.35maquisredbeard2: is the server machine the one that's using the wireless?
00:18.53redbeard2maquis: both machines are on the wireless
00:19.17maquisi've seen other people have similar issues when the machine hosting the synergy server was on both wireless and wired at the same time
00:19.53redbeard2maquis: that could be a problem. i do have a crossover connecting the two machines today, for faster file transfers.
00:20.04maquisah... that sounds likely to me
00:20.16redbeard2network manager is only managing the wireless tho. i did the wired manually.
00:20.20maquisthat sounds more likely than the 2 wireless one, though
00:21.08redbeard2thanks for the tip. i'll put the crossover away and see what happens
00:21.53redbeard2hey, there is is. i was running it in the foreground for troubleshooting, and while we were talking the server said the client died
00:22.06redbeard2as i unplugged the crossover, it told me that the client had come back
00:22.13maquis:)
00:22.21redbeard2~kudos maquis
00:22.22maquisyou confused it!
00:22.26maquisthx :)
00:22.37maquispoints at all the people who've complained about it to her
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00:46.41Sarguncomplains about it to maquis
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01:35.49vontrapphey all
01:36.12vontrappi'm looking at  getting a G1, but all the reps say it _needs_ a data plan
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01:36.43vontrappi don't want a data plan, and from what i've read in some forums you can use it without data plan (it doesn't make any sense to me that it would be other wise)
01:37.09vontrappso, can anyone here vouch for the android phone working w/out a data plan?
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03:04.09tensaivontrapp: why a g1 without a data plan? why not a less data-oriented phone?
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03:18.05levi_ipodGood evening.
03:19.26levi_ipodQuiet night around here, eh?
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03:56.52Sargunlevi, you have an iCrap touch?
04:06.13vontrapptensai: that's what everyone says, "the G1 is data oriented" or "what's the point of a G1 without a data plan"
04:06.21vontrappwell, a data plan isn't the ONLY way to get internet
04:06.52vontrappand besides, it still acts as a pretty good PDA without data plan,
04:06.59vontrappand it's still a cool phone without data plan
04:07.04tensaijust curious
04:07.08vontrappand it still does GPS without data plan
04:08.07vontrappand almost anywhere i go i have wifi
04:08.53vontrappi understand what they're doing, they're just trying to make money off the data plan
04:09.10vontrappso they market it as "data centric" which is understandable
04:09.24vontrappand selling it bundled with a data plan would also be understandable
04:09.50vontrappbut all this lying and contortionism saying that it won't work at all without data plan is just silly
04:31.11rsimpkinsDoes anyone here like radio scanners?
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05:43.44Supaplexgets off the lol-o-coaster, and heads to zZZzZzzz land
06:28.28vontrapprsimpkins: elg does
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06:31.03llo7fwow - i didn't know the linux/bsd scene was so dead in slc
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06:49.10llo7fi really want to say and have felt this for a long time - there is something very seriously wrong with salt lake
06:59.31RyanEThere is something very seriously wrong with llo7f.
07:05.06tensainothing a little lvm wouldn't fix
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08:09.26jasonprAnybody out there ski?
08:24.30high_rollerjasonpr: I used to a bunch
08:24.44high_rollerhaven't been in a while, since I've been out of state
08:25.14jasonprI'm looking for someone to go skiing with this weekend
08:25.33jasonprI know kind of a weird place to look for skiers but....
08:26.04jasonprIf anyone is interested in hitting Snowbird sometime in the next week and feels comfortable on blacks
08:26.20high_rolleryea, my next time out will be bunny hills
08:26.25high_rollertoo out of shape
08:26.40jasonpryour courage or legs?
08:32.25high_rollerlegs
08:32.45high_rollerthe black diamond runs don't scare me
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11:31.28Sargunhi.
11:31.34SargunTRIPLE BLACK DIAMOND.
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15:56.36*** topic/#utah is http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | ¡Manteca!
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16:00.12^Migs^ibot, welcome back
16:00.13ibotHey, back! Glad you could join us.
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16:08.09vontrappjasonpr: i'd be ready for some blacks in a couple weeks
16:08.39vontrappmethinks you'll be gone by then, though :(
16:09.37vontrappi'd give it a shot now if i was in town, and if you would want to wait for a huffity out of breath dead legs person
16:11.57vontrappso... anybody use the google G1? how is it? goods bads...
16:35.57maquisvontrapp: that's the phone, right?
16:36.22maquisvontrapp: i know some people who have the google phone...
16:36.34maquisfrom what i've heard, it's ok, but they've got iphone envy
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16:49.16elghttp://www.alamogordonews.com/ci_11343614
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16:53.48maquishttp://gizmodo.com/5121311/30gb-zunes-failing-everywhere-all-at-once?skyline=true&s=x
17:05.37RyanEEvery time a bell rings, a Zune loses it's wings.
17:06.21unumI think a friend of mine got one for christmas, even though I told him not to
17:12.05maquisi didn't realize there were that many people with zunes
17:12.36vontrappmaquis: well i don't have iphone envy even when i don't have a G1, so...
17:12.39unumI thought they had been a complete flop and that everyone hated them
17:12.50maquisi kinda feel sorry for the pour souls on the zune team that'll be missing their new years parties tonight...
17:12.51vontrappunum: zune or G1?
17:12.57unumzune
17:13.01maquisvontrapp: *shrug*
17:13.08maquisvontrapp: why you looking at the G1?
17:13.13vontrappfor fun
17:13.19vontrappi need a new phone
17:13.30vontrappmy current one is borked
17:13.32maquishmmm...
17:13.41maquiswell, g1 doesn't have as much software easily available
17:13.43unummaquis: that's not what I've come to expect from ms.  They delay software patches by years sometimes.  I doubt they will cancel any party plans
17:13.52vontrappand i can get it at a good discount
17:13.55maquisand i kinda find it funny that if you'r etyping "reboot" in an email you can reboot your phone accidentally... :)
17:14.01maquisunum: good point
17:14.09maquisi guess i'm coming at it from the amazon perspective on that :)
17:14.38vontrappmaquis: any reference on that reboot thing?
17:14.50unummy phone is still working so I'll wait for a few more android phones to come out before I start looking seriously
17:15.31maquisvontrapp: one moment
17:16.23maquishttp://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=680
17:17.11vontrappmaquis: looks like typing reboot on a line all it's own
17:17.37vontrappand and this other article says on version 1.0 TC4-RC29 and earlier
17:17.37maquisvontrapp: looks like it's fixed
17:17.49vontrappso I assume a later version is available?
17:18.08vontrappmaquis: see, that's the beauty of things like the G1, they may have problems, but they actually get fixed! :)
17:18.10maquisbut anything getting typed on a line by itself being sent as a command to a root shell just cracks me up, even if it is fixed now
17:18.33maquisi can so see myself doing osmething stupid with that type of thing while IMing someone an idea on how to fix something
17:18.42vontrappwell it looks like only reboot does
17:18.48fozzmooType 'reboot'
17:18.50vontrappprobably a debug thing they forgot to take out
17:18.50fozzmooheh heh.
17:19.10maquisvontrapp: nope... it says everything's sent to the root shell
17:19.22maquisthat's why you can turn it off by typing <enter>cat<enter>
17:19.39vontrappSimple things like mv and mkdir don't work. Tested those
17:19.44vontrappthat was one comment
17:19.46fozzmooSome people would find that funny all by itself.
17:19.49vontrappbut maybe he had the fixed firmware
17:19.53vontrappwho knows
17:20.02maquisyeah... interesting, though
17:20.02fozzmooYou know, people who don't know the significance of 'cat'
17:20.22maquisvontrapp: you getting the phone for work, or just for yourself?
17:20.27vontrappjust for myself
17:20.34vontrappthinking about it anyway
17:20.35maquisfor me, when i got my phone, it was important for it to be able to sync with work stuff
17:21.07vontrappno worries, i'm free from all proprietary lockins
17:21.23maquisnice
17:21.25maquisi dunno
17:21.41maquisi like the iphone a ton... it's got some fun apps, and if you jailbreak, you can get a lot of OSS stuff as well...
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17:22.02vontrappthe biggest deterrent right now is T-Mobiles insane and abominable "marketing" scheme
17:22.14eightyeightmarketing scheme?
17:22.27vontrappyou must _must_ MUST have the data plan
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17:22.50vontrappand if you cancel, your phone basically turns to a brick
17:22.58vontrappif that can be believed at all
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17:23.13eightyeightwhat do you expect? the android isn't exactly marketed as a stand along phone
17:23.23vontrappeightyeight: EXACTLY
17:23.25eightyeight*alone
17:23.42vontrappit's not marketed as such, but it certainly can be a perfectly good voice phone, wifi internet device, and PDA!!!
17:23.47eightyeightsooooo if you want the android, then you want a data plan
17:23.56vontrappeightyeight: false
17:24.02vontrappthey want you to believe that
17:24.21eightyeighti will say that registering a google account so it can be activated is odd
17:24.22vontrappit does have wifi, afterall
17:24.35vontrappit is a google phone *shrug*
17:24.48vontrappand i have a google account anyways
17:25.29vontrappanyone heard of any hardware deficiencies? breaking screen slider... etc?
17:25.34eightyeightit could operate just fine without one though. you don't need a google account to make a call, do you?
17:25.52vontrappeightyeight: no, not if you use someone elses account to activate i guess
17:26.04vontrappor maybe you could cancel your account after activation
17:26.24vontrappor maybe subvert the activation
17:26.29eightyeightwell, i have a google account. and i expect to have a data plan with that phone
17:26.34vontrappthat last one i've seen surprisingly little info on
17:26.37vontrappas in, none
17:27.09eightyeighti've held one and played with it. it's not as slick as the iphone, but it's not bad
17:27.16vontrappmy plan is to (if i go through with it) get the G1 with the data plan, use the dat aplan for one month, then cancel the data plan
17:27.27vontrappand have a perfectly good phone, and wicked cool pda, wifi device
17:28.18vontrappit'll get better
17:28.27vontrappand updates are frequent and free!
17:28.43vontrappthe only thing is the multitouch
17:29.00vontrappit's so sad nobody is allowed to do something so stupid simple
17:29.06vontrappbesides apple
17:29.33eightyeightthat won't last, i bet
17:30.03vontrappas i understand it though, the multitouch restriction occurs at the hardware level, right?
17:30.10eightyeighteither the patent will get overturned, google will fork up the money, or a better "multi-touch" design will come out
17:30.21vontrappor are these touch screens multitouch capable, just needing software implementation?
17:30.31eightyeightdunno
17:30.56eightyeighti would imagine it's a software implementation
17:31.06eightyeightit just has to register 2 touches, instead of 1
17:31.08vontrappso, if it's the hardware side, i could end up having a no multi touch love screen, and one coming out shortly after :(
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17:31.35vontrappif it's software, then i get the update and all is happy
17:34.24vontrapphmmm, looks like it is software! cool
17:35.01vontrapphttp://www.ryebrye.com/blog/2008/11/22/g1-multitouch-proof-of-concept-video/
17:36.18vontrappreasons to not get it are diminishing
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17:41.18vontrappG1 has 3d accelerometer , too
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18:04.19high_rollervontrapp: I wanted a G1 for christmas, but didn't get one
18:04.56high_rollerbut I think I'm saving for the developer version
18:06.37leviThe G1 has a resistive touchscreen, doesn't it?
18:07.32high_rollercapacitive (sp?)
18:08.01high_rollerI've played with one at the tmobile store and it worked fine with just my finger
18:08.30leviResistive touchscreens can work with your finger, too.
18:09.13leviBut I guess it is capacitive.
18:10.10leviI got an iPod Touch for Christmas.  It'd be fun to play with the G1 to compare.
18:12.15maquisa couple weeks ago, my teammate got a touch.  he ended up returning it 2 days later to get an iphone because he liked it too much
18:12.47leviI love the touch, but I wouldn't want to pay for the cell phone plan of an iPhone.
18:13.14maquisshrug.  
18:13.24maquisit's not too bad if you can get your job to partially reimburse :)
18:13.31high_rollerhave the internets on your phone is handy
18:13.40leviI am a very minimal cell phone user, so I spend $25 to recharge the minutes on my phone every few months.
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18:14.29leviI liked having the internets on my phone back when I did, but I didn't like it $80/mo worth.
18:15.23maquislevi: yeah... that's why it was important to me that the data plan was something that would play nicely with work :)
18:15.27SupaplexI wonder if this cyclades has a normal CF card inside.
18:19.38Supaplexfound it :)
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19:56.28unumso I have two tables lets say locations and projects_locations. I want to do a select where it returns a list of all locations and a null for projects if there is not a corresponding entry in the projects_locations table
19:56.43unumI have the following query:SELECT * FROM locations NATURAL LEFT OUTER JOIN projects_locations WHERE project_index=2
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19:58.58unumis anyone even around?
20:00.56jasonprno
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20:01.57jasonprWhat db are you using?
20:02.15unumpostgres
20:02.34unumI always forget to mention that.  I always mean to, but my hands never type it.
20:02.48jasonprSometimes it matters
20:02.51jasonprlike now...
20:03.31jasonprso you're trying to do a join on table one and table two where you want to include all of table1 including nulls
20:03.54jasonprbefore I put any thought into it
20:04.04unumya
20:04.05jsmithunum: You tried a right join, right?
20:04.07jasonpris the query working?
20:04.12unumjsmith: ya
20:04.23unumjasonpr: no my query is not working.  I do not get the nuls
20:04.25jsmithSELECT * from locations RIGHT JOIN project_locations ON locations.id = project_locations.id;
20:04.51jsmithunum: The first problem with your JOIN is that you're not joining on a common column, so you're getting the cross-product of the two tables;
20:05.04jsmithalways ends his database explanations with a semi-colon :-(
20:05.28unumI thought the NATURAL took care of that
20:06.09unumyour join doesn't work either
20:06.55unumI really thought the outer join stuff was supposed to take care of this but it doesn't seem to be working like I want it to
20:09.32jsmithunum: Well, I didn't expect it to work right off the bat, considering I don't know what your tables look like.
20:10.03maquisheh
20:10.46unumlocations:location_index,location
20:11.00unumprojects_locations:location_index,project_index
20:11.16maquisso, you're joining on location_index
20:11.32unumSELECT * FROM locations FULL OUTER JOIN projects_locations ON (locations.location_index=projects_locations.location_index) WHERE project_index=2
20:11.37unumdoes not work
20:11.49unumSELECT * FROM locations RIGHT JOIN projects_locations ON (locations.location_index=projects_locations.location_index) WHERE project_index=2
20:11.52unumdoes not work
20:11.57maquisunum: what are you hoping for?
20:12.06jsmithunum: Follow along:
20:12.20jsmithCREATE TABLE foo (id serial, name text);
20:12.29jsmithINSERT INTO foo VALUES (DEFAULT, 'Alice');
20:12.37jsmithINSERT INTO foo VALUES (DEFAULT, 'Bob');
20:12.42jsmithCREATE TABLE bar (id serial, foo_id int, name text);
20:12.42maquisselect * from locations lo, projects_locations pl where lo.location_index=pl.location_index and pl.project_index=2;
20:12.50jsmithINSERT INTO bar VALUES (DEFAULT, 1, 'Smith');
20:12.50maquisis that not what you're trying to do?
20:13.29jsmithunum: Create those two tables as I've outline, and then look at the difference between a right join and a left join:
20:13.33jsmithSELECT * FROM foo LEFT JOIN bar ON foo.id = bar.foo_id;
20:13.39jsmithSELECT * FROM foo RIGHT JOIN bar ON foo.id = bar.foo_id;
20:15.24unumjsmith: yes but it doesn't give me NULLS
20:15.28unumwhich is what I want
20:15.43maquisunum: where do you want nulls?
20:15.56maquiswhen you've got a project that doesn't have a location?
20:16.24unumI want all of the location listed for each project even when the project didn't run there
20:17.07unumjsmith: my situation is different because I have a one to many relationship
20:17.16jsmithunum: Your LEFT JOIN didn't give you NULLS?
20:17.41unumsorry I didn't realize your example is a little differnt from mine, let my fix that
20:17.54maquishmmm...
20:17.55maquisweird
20:18.02maquisi have no idea why you'd want that, but sure :)
20:19.09unummaquis: it's for the business major(missing rows confuse him)
20:19.30jsmithunum: With me so far?  See the difference between LEFT and RIGHT joins?
20:19.39jsmithunum: If so, then run this query: SELECT * FROM foo, bar;
20:20.04jsmithunum: And notice how I didn't constrain the JOIN... that gives us the cross-product, which usually results in things we don't really want
20:21.23unumthe problem is I think I really want something like the cross join, just not with bad data....
20:21.35maquisunum: lol
20:21.52unumuh no that one doesn't work
20:22.33unumI guess I should just handle this on the programming side rather than the sql side
20:22.49unumnow I understand why the joins weren't working in this case
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20:25.03maquis~lart redbeard2
20:25.03ibotcuts redbeard2 into thin stripes
20:25.14unumthanks
20:25.20maquisjulienned redbeard2
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20:35.42jasonprunum: have you tried just a left join?
20:40.20jsmithjasonpr: That's just what I was trying to get him to do
20:43.13jasonprjsmith: you ever done fax over voip?
20:44.07jsmithjasonpr: This sums it up nicely: http://www.soft-switch.org/foip.html
20:44.55jsmithjasonpr: If you still have questions after reading that, come back and I'd be happy to help you
20:46.29elghttp://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/12-31-2008/0004948086&EDATE=
20:46.33elgqwest sinks to new lows
20:48.06jasonpr"anti-competitive and unfair trade practices" duh... that's how business is done.
20:48.38jsmith"We don't care.  We don't have to.  We're the phone company!"
20:49.15jasonprYeah the only thing they're better at than that is nothing business as usual
20:49.27jasonpr32v copper lines to your home
20:49.57jasonprsit on your ass and don't upgrade and offer new services
20:50.45jasonprYou guys should check this out.....
20:50.47jasonprhttp://town.hall.org/radio/HellsBells/
20:50.57jasonprradio documentary of telephony
20:54.18jasonprone of my favorite parts of the documentary is when some guy tried to sell the "Dial System" to AT&T and they said why would anyone want to dail when they could pick up a phone and talk to an operator
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21:13.59maquisjasonpr: lol
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23:19.45elgdoes an ubuntu 8.10 alternate (text) cd make a good rescue cd?
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