| 00:16.08 | harleypig | http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/12/more-christmas.html |
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| 04:51.16 | findlay | so, gmail is choking on my 2.9 MiB email message |
| 04:51.45 | findlay | it's been thinking about it for 10 minutes already, and I haven't even hit the send button yet |
| 04:52.19 | eightyeight | that's ok. i can't access my inbox |
| 04:52.40 | findlay | well, sorry for bringing down the intarwebs for everyone |
| 04:52.54 | eightyeight | ~lart findlay |
| 04:52.54 | ibot | send killer squirrels to attack findlay |
| 04:52.57 | zzzirk | what do you expect from beta software? |
| 04:52.58 | zzzirk | ;) |
| 04:53.06 | eightyeight | heh. 5 year beta |
| 04:53.10 | findlay | maybe I could IMAP in to send it |
| 04:53.18 | zzzirk | mine loaded fine |
| 04:53.20 | zzzirk | sorry guys |
| 04:54.02 | eightyeight | ~slart zzzirk |
| 04:54.20 | zzzirk | dances around and sticks his tongue out |
| 04:54.26 | findlay | I wish I knew what firefox is doing that takes so long |
| 04:54.55 | eightyeight | i think mutt froze |
| 04:58.17 | findlay | did you leave it outside too long? |
| 05:00.49 | eightyeight | something. it's not responding to key strokes |
| 05:02.01 | zzzirk | maybe gmail's attitude is rubbing off on it |
| 05:05.00 | levi | findlay: So, you have a girlfriend now? |
| 05:06.14 | eightyeight | is it just me, or is the lack of consistency in mutt a bit annoying? |
| 05:06.29 | findlay | levi: correct |
| 05:06.43 | levi | findlay: That's awesome. :) |
| 05:06.50 | eightyeight | y, i and q can all exit a screen, depending on the screen your in. y also sends a message after composing a new one |
| 05:07.14 | levi | eightyeight: Clearly you need to switch to emacs+gnus for your mail reading. ;) |
| 05:07.55 | findlay | eightyeight: mutt is like vim. So many people use it and it's been around for so long that there are innumerable layers of hetergenity |
| 05:07.57 | eightyeight | why? isn't mutt not intuitive enough? |
| 05:07.59 | tensai | findlay: violin question for you |
| 05:08.18 | findlay | tensai: answer $199 ebay violins |
| 05:08.25 | findlay | or walmart |
| 05:08.27 | findlay | either way |
| 05:08.36 | tensai | findlay: I see these violins that are like 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 size. do they sound the same as a full size? |
| 05:08.54 | findlay | nope |
| 05:08.59 | findlay | depends |
| 05:09.01 | findlay | really |
| 05:09.19 | levi | I have a question for you regarding string instruments too. |
| 05:09.24 | tensai | but they'd have to play the same pitch, right? |
| 05:09.38 | levi | Can a bow be re-strung/haired? If so, how much does it generally cost? |
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| 05:10.13 | findlay | for the whole spectrum of all violins ever there are orders of magnitude in the sound quality. 'Full size' may or may not signify any appreciable affect |
| 05:10.31 | findlay | levi: of course. It usually costs somewhere between $50-100 |
| 05:10.49 | findlay | my bow needs to be rehaired infact |
| 05:11.06 | levi | Mine got torn apart by a visiting child a few years ago. |
| 05:11.11 | levi | Well, my wife's. |
| 05:11.16 | findlay | haha |
| 05:11.30 | levi | I think she also broke a few of the viola strings, and possibly the bridge. |
| 05:11.59 | findlay | ooh, the bridge will be $100 all on its own |
| 05:12.05 | findlay | strings are ~$50 |
| 05:12.07 | levi | My wife used to be very good, but she had jaw surgery and couldn't hold it properly afterward. |
| 05:12.20 | levi | The bridge might have just been knocked over. |
| 05:12.28 | bbeattie | Alright, really weird problem. I've got a system with a r8168b network chipset, there's a bug in the ubuntu driver and so I've compiled my own that works. What is odd is on boot it loads r8168 and r8169 even though I've completed deleted the r8169.ko driver and ran depmod -a. The network also will not work until I rmmod r8169 and ALSO r8168 and then modprobe r8168. After that exact process and nothing but will it work. I've blacklisted the r8169 and it |
| 05:12.33 | levi | Geez, viola bits are expensive! |
| 05:12.57 | levi | bbeattie: Is it getting the old ones from the initrd? |
| 05:13.34 | levi | Oooh, the auto bailout appears to have failed. |
| 05:13.36 | bbeattie | levi: shouldn't it be pulling them out of /lib/modules/etc on boot? .. I've never researched how initrd fully works.. |
| 05:14.01 | tensai | findlay: what made you respond so quickly with "ebay"? |
| 05:14.06 | findlay | initrd contains the guts of modules |
| 05:14.20 | levi | bbeattie: If you've completely deleted them from your filesystem, the initrd would be the logical place to look for where it's getting them at boot time. |
| 05:14.40 | levi | bbeattie: You might try running the command that builds a new one. I can't remember what it is off the top of my head, though. |
| 05:14.51 | bbeattie | dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-`uname -r |
| 05:15.23 | findlay | tensai: because at a rehearsal last week some guy there had a baroque bow with him, and he let me try it. I really liked it because it has more linear mass than my bow, so he said I could find one for $50 on ebay: "they're all Chinese or something" |
| 05:17.50 | findlay | but there's no guarantee that some random Chinese ebay bow is going to have the mass that I want |
| 05:18.15 | findlay | so I'll probably just go into Charlie Liu's when I have time |
| 05:21.46 | findlay | ~slashdot |
| 05:23.05 | findlay | google chrome in gamma? |
| 05:24.05 | tensai | findlay: are smaller violins a good idea for kids? |
| 05:24.59 | levi | Google Chrome passed 1.0! |
| 05:25.01 | findlay | tensai: only when they're tiny enough to need one |
| 05:25.10 | findlay | my philosophy is, if they can handle a full size, let them have the real thing |
| 05:25.20 | levi | I played a viola when I was a kid. I wanted to play cello, but my parents said it was too big to haul around. |
| 05:25.21 | findlay | but I'm not a teacher, so I don't know anything |
| 05:25.26 | findlay | violins are pretty tiny anyway |
| 05:25.59 | levi | This was in 4th grade or something like that. |
| 05:26.23 | findlay | tensai: but there's nothing wrong with geting a small size student instrument |
| 05:26.39 | levi | I had a little kid crush on one of the girls who played viola. |
| 05:27.31 | levi | Also, one day I thought it would be fun to repeatedly rub the scroll of the viola on my forehead. It left a little burn mark or something. |
| 05:27.38 | findlay | my elementary school was marginal enough that we didn't have any instrumental program at all |
| 05:28.04 | levi | I was very sad when 2 years later, I moved to a school that didn't have an orchestra program, only band. |
| 05:28.12 | findlay | I had to start in 7th grade with the rest of the unwashed masses |
| 05:28.46 | tensai | I started on clarinet in the 6th grade. we had no strings in our band either. |
| 05:29.01 | levi | I did home-ec in 6th grade instead of band, but I broke down and did clarinet starting in 7th grade. |
| 05:29.18 | RyanE | tensai: I started with a 1/4 size violin. I think there's nothing wrong with a small size for small fingers and arms. It didn't take much 'adjustment' to move up sizes as I recall. |
| 05:29.20 | findlay | you should have demanded contra basoon |
| 05:29.29 | findlay | those things cost like, $80,000+ |
| 05:30.10 | levi | So, some Lehi High School band was playing at Costco last Saturday. |
| 05:30.13 | levi | They had a guy playing electric guitar. |
| 05:30.23 | findlay | haha |
| 05:30.26 | findlay | costco |
| 05:30.33 | tensai | I always wanted to play oboe. I love the sound. |
| 05:30.56 | RyanE | I always wanted to play the guitar. Without any practicing. :) |
| 05:31.06 | findlay | I had the privilege of playing with one of the world's best oboists a few months ago |
| 05:31.07 | tensai | RyanE: it's called guitar hero :) |
| 05:31.17 | levi | They were playing in the area between the outer doors and inner doors. It was pretty darned loud in there. |
| 05:31.35 | RyanE | no, I want the *real thing*. |
| 05:32.08 | levi | RyanE: I went and bought myself a cheap Strat with my Guitar Center discount and a new old stock amp from work a little over a year ago. Unfortunately, I haven't practiced much. |
| 05:32.47 | levi | I can play something that is recognizable as Horse With No Name. |
| 05:32.56 | findlay | haha |
| 05:33.03 | levi | Only because it's the easiest song ever to sort-of play. |
| 05:33.18 | tensai | here's my dilemma on small form factor. my wife is interested in learning violin and we think maybe we'll force it on the kids. |
| 05:33.31 | tensai | I'd like one to fit both needs |
| 05:33.45 | levi | And the opening riff to Smoke On the Water |
| 05:33.59 | tensai | levi: what? no stairway??? |
| 05:34.02 | levi | tensai: Dude, regular violins are tiny. |
| 05:34.09 | levi | tensai: That would require a little bit of skill. |
| 05:35.00 | tensai | see, this is the sort of info that's useful to me. I've never even so much as held a violin. |
| 05:35.21 | tensai | levi: if I can play it, it can't be that hard. aside from the solo in the middle, of course. |
| 05:36.00 | levi | Violas are bigger than violins, and it wasn't too big for my puny 4th grader self. |
| 05:36.19 | levi | tensai: Well, I'll have to learn it then. |
| 05:36.34 | levi | I could also play the very beginning of The Tain by The Decemberists. |
| 05:37.51 | findlay | can you play that one part from that one song? |
| 05:37.55 | tensai | I studied classical guitar in high school. that was some serious fun. |
| 05:38.11 | tensai | it's hard to pull it out now with the kids. they won't keep their hands off. |
| 05:38.45 | levi | Yeah, my guitar stays in the office, which is generally closed off from the kids. |
| 05:38.52 | findlay | so just get the walmart job |
| 05:38.58 | findlay | then they can fool around with it |
| 05:39.19 | findlay | guitars are relatively inexpensive |
| 05:43.11 | RyanE | levi: you can play my wife's least favorite song? Cool. That'd be worth getting a guitar... :) |
| 05:43.36 | levi | RyanE: Which one is that? Horse With No Name? |
| 05:43.47 | RyanE | yep |
| 05:45.08 | bbeattie | I just got a rogue d100 today for my sister, $80, and it sounds as good as a $400 martin. there's also $40 guitar that's better than any at walmart |
| 05:45.11 | findlay | haha |
| 05:45.50 | bbeattie | ryane: btw, that xml label change worked |
| 05:47.09 | RyanE | bbeattie: cool. Glad to help. |
| 05:47.21 | RyanE | so was it <studio> previously, or did it never work? :) |
| 05:47.24 | tensai | findlay: violin vs. fiddle. what's the difference? |
| 05:47.31 | RyanE | tensai: how you play... |
| 05:48.12 | bbeattie | ryane: I'm not sure, I know it was loading in 1.3.2, but not in 1.7 |
| 05:48.35 | findlay | tensai: pretty much everybody uses the same violin these days |
| 05:48.53 | findlay | it's such a versatile instrument, there's not much need to modify it |
| 05:49.13 | bbeattie | findlay: how much does a starter violin start at, or what's a good brand? my 5 year old nephew may be starting to learn it. |
| 05:49.27 | findlay | I'm not sure |
| 05:49.34 | findlay | just starting out, anything could be fine |
| 05:49.57 | findlay | but if you're looking for a decent instrument, be prepared to pay at least $800 |
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| 06:50.26 | fozzmoo | ~lart Qwest |
| 06:50.26 | ibot | slaps Qwest upside the head with a wet fish |
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| 15:39.22 | elg | harleypig: http://www.savagechickens.com/2008/12/exposed.html |
| 15:41.54 | eightyeight | so, is santa wearing a skirt then? |
| 15:42.11 | elg | probably a thong |
| 15:43.58 | tensai | santa, santa, santa. when will he learn? |
| 15:44.19 | elg | i think they saw harleypig in a santa suit |
| 15:49.45 | eightyeight | any ideas on why an xfs volume mounts fine on one computer, but says corrupt superblock on another? |
| 15:54.06 | tensai | what would you think this error means from my library website, "All the items in this bib are bookable. Book a copy of this bib from the full bib page." |
| 15:58.25 | ^Migs^ | lol @ this Lansa trainer: "XSL is a newer technology, so it's harder to learn" |
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| 15:58.45 | ^Migs^ | I'm in training, and the trainer just said those words... |
| 15:58.52 | ^Migs^ | made me chuckle under my breath |
| 16:02.44 | fugue88 | eightyeight, different sector-mapping (a la LBA and friends)? I seem to remember that Linux takes a hint from the partition table. |
| 16:03.39 | fugue88 | I should say "sector translation" maybe. |
| 16:03.40 | jsmith | ^Migs^: New = hard? |
| 16:04.23 | ^Migs^ | yes, the newer something is, the harder it is |
| 16:04.43 | ^Migs^ | this is why humans grow softer as they get older |
| 16:04.53 | ^Migs^ | but babies...total hardasses |
| 16:08.17 | Tene | totally |
| 16:08.30 | Tene | a baby kicked my ass last week, just to steal my candy! |
| 16:08.34 | eightyeight | fugue88: any ideas on approaching the problem? it was mountable before |
| 16:08.38 | Tene | <fact> |
| 16:08.45 | ^Migs^ | stupid babies |
| 16:08.55 | fugue88 | eightyeight, on the computer that now complains about the super block? |
| 16:08.56 | ^Migs^ | they've gotten out of control |
| 16:09.24 | eightyeight | fugue88: yeah. i've run xfs_check with no errors reported, and xfs_repair did repair the log, but other than that, it seems clean |
| 16:09.54 | ^Migs^ | sometimes there's a value to a good old-fashioned infanticide |
| 16:10.04 | fugue88 | That's just strange. This is one of the reasons I dislike XFS---it's checking tools are garbage. |
| 16:10.12 | eightyeight | i should say, i get the standard "wrong gs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sdc1, missing codepage or helper program or other errer" from mount |
| 16:10.51 | tensai | http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~arobic/funny/babies.html |
| 16:10.53 | brac | [Study Reveals: Babies are Stupid - The Onion] |
| 16:11.12 | high_roller | this is an interesting article: http://www.forbes.com/finance/2008/12/09/dollar-devaluation-gold-pf-ii-in_fb_1209soapbox_inl.html |
| 16:11.14 | brac | [Dollar Devaluation To Fix The Great Recession - Forbes.com] |
| 16:12.01 | fugue88 | Did you run 'xfs_check -f /dev/sdc1' (the -f is important) with the drive unmounted or mounted only ro? |
| 16:13.17 | eightyeight | stat64("/sbin/mount.xfs", 0xbffc5804) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) |
| 16:13.27 | eightyeight | from strace. that could be a problem |
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| 16:13.35 | fugue88 | Odd. |
| 16:14.20 | eightyeight | now i need to search through my dpkg logs, and see how that got removed |
| 16:15.53 | fugue88 | If that doesn't work, I'd check that Linux is reporting the same geometry between the two computers. |
| 16:16.07 | fugue88 | But it sounds like you've got the problem nailed down. |
| 16:16.28 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | All the cool kids keep SELinux in root canal mode. |
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| 17:17.28 | levi | Good morning. |
| 17:18.40 | levi | ^Migs^: New technology is hard, let's go shopping! |
| 17:19.17 | ^Migs^ | http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/fail-owned-myspace-your-mine-tattoo-spelling-fail.jpg |
| 17:25.15 | levi | high_roller: I suspect the guy who wrote the Forbes article is an idiot, but I'm not completely sure. |
| 17:27.12 | levi | high_roller: He's writing on behalf of an organization that is obsessed with the gold market and believes that prices there are being fixed through collusion. |
| 17:29.55 | levi | He is also advocating massive inflation. |
| 17:30.18 | levi | Perhaps because he wants his gold to be worth more money. :P |
| 17:30.44 | ^Migs^ | I read a hilarious article in Newsweek this morning about how the Bible supports gay marriage. |
| 17:32.48 | eightyeight | is playing "Apocalyptica - Faraway" on last.fm |
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| 17:39.26 | high_roller | levi: that's probably true, but there are some good reasons for high inflation, especially in our debt driven economy |
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| 17:40.14 | high_roller | however, it would screw over those people that live off of savings, or other accounts |
| 17:41.12 | sjansen | So because the Senate couldn't agree on how to make Detroit clean up its act, we're now going to sneak them the money through a backdoor with few restrictions? |
| 17:43.14 | unum | ^Migs^: I think I could make that argument with the D&C. |
| 17:43.35 | unum | or atleast I could argue that it doesn't support a government definition of marriage |
| 17:43.41 | unum | anyways this suprised me |
| 17:43.44 | unum | http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/12/135207 |
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| 18:04.11 | levi | high_roller: Yeah, I'm not saying inflation isn't part of the answer, but the guy came off as overly simplistic. |
| 18:04.53 | levi | high_roller: And given the great success that the Fed's monetary policy has had so far, I'm not sure monetary policy is going to be the bulk of the solution this time. |
| 18:09.17 | levi | "more women would give up sex in favor of the Internet than men." |
| 18:09.25 | levi | I've always thought there was something wrong with women... |
| 18:09.27 | levi | ;) |
| 18:10.08 | harleypig | There is. |
| 18:10.42 | tensai | jsmith-away: "Loose card in the NIU. He opened the NIU and the card fell out." |
| 18:11.07 | tensai | gee, can't imagine how that would cause a t1 to bounce... |
| 18:11.33 | tensai | harleypig: some specific women more than others, I'm sure |
| 18:13.06 | harleypig | Nah ... I've come to the conclusion that women are aliens who were stranded here long ago and have quite managed to fit in. In the process screwing up the natives to the point they think the alien invaders are desirable. |
| 18:13.26 | harleypig | s/have quite/have not quite/ |
| 18:15.17 | harleypig | That didn't come across as too bitter, did it? |
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| 18:17.54 | Supaplex | it's not like they even understand as much as we'd like to know. |
| 18:24.27 | Tene | I've never got the "Women are SOOOO DIFFERENT!!" thing. |
| 18:24.36 | Tene | They're just people. srsly. |
| 18:25.25 | elg | you could both be right |
| 18:25.32 | elg | some women could be just people |
| 18:25.36 | elg | others could be aliens |
| 18:25.47 | elg | for that matter some men could be aliens |
| 18:25.50 | elg | and even dogs |
| 18:26.09 | Tene | People in general are weird. The difference between me and any given other human is likely much greater than the difference between 'men in general' and 'women in general' |
| 18:28.05 | Tene | If I can understand and get along with my current flatmates... |
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| 18:33.49 | bonez45 | what's the site where you can look up what a web server is running, i.e., apache, iis, etc? |
| 18:35.31 | Tene | bonez45: netcraft? |
| 18:37.57 | bonez45 | ok.. that was it, thanks.. |
| 18:39.36 | Sargun_Screen | why do you need to do that? |
| 18:39.53 | Sargun_Screen | are you some sort of evil hacker |
| 18:45.04 | tensai | elg: some men could be dogs, or some dogs could be aliens? |
| 18:45.17 | tensai | or maybe some dogs are aliens dressed up as dogs dressed up as men? |
| 18:45.31 | elg | or pets of aliens |
| 18:47.13 | tensai | Tene: you're being far too rational, thus proving that you are radically different than most americans |
| 18:49.45 | Tene | tensai: if I was that different, would I insead percieve "Most males are pretty similar" and "Most females are pretty similar"? |
| 18:50.01 | *** join/#utah GvzEvxre (n=timr@72.62.207.4) |
| 18:50.01 | *** mode/#utah [+o GvzEvxre] by ChanServ |
| 18:50.57 | elg | Tene: if you thought you were a typical guy (ignore those darn outliers, e.g. geeks) then by definition yes |
| 18:52.27 | Tene | elg: I'd think that if I was typical, I'd see many differences in my ingroup (males) and mostly similarities in the outgroup (females), right? |
| 18:52.41 | Tene | tensai was suggesting that I am an outlier |
| 18:53.08 | elg | you'd think. but if you thought you were a typical guy you'd probably be limited to "he likes the cowboys and I like the 49ers" |
| 18:53.36 | tensai | Tene: or maybe *you're* the alien |
| 18:54.10 | elg | the very fact you're using logic makes you an outlier. but in this channel that makes you a non-outlier |
| 18:55.36 | Tene | tensai: I'm just talking about my observations, not logic |
| 18:59.55 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=Jake@205.158.184.126.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 19:14.42 | levi | Tene: You must be an alien. |
| 19:14.50 | Tene | Could be. |
| 19:19.33 | levi | So you admit it! |
| 19:32.28 | fozzmoo | Alright. So where do I go in Utah Valley for some server memory? |
| 19:43.12 | fozzmoo | nowhere? |
| 19:43.14 | fozzmoo | THat sucks. |
| 19:50.42 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-64-126.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 19:51.21 | sjansen | My roommate started a grease fire a couple of days ago. |
| 19:51.36 | sjansen | When I got home last night I discovered that the repair guys had come by unannounced. |
| 19:51.43 | sjansen | Apparently their interpretation of "repainting" is a single can of spray paint. |
| 19:51.50 | sjansen | You've never seen a more half-assed job. Near as I can tell, the decision what to paint was made completely at random while flailing the can around wildly. |
| 19:51.57 | sjansen | My cabinets now have a sandy texture. The previously undamaged stove was left speckled with paint. As were the counter top, the dishes in the drying rack, and a loaf of homemade bread. |
| 19:52.02 | sjansen | After painting the bread, they were kind enough to cover it with a towel. |
| 20:04.18 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | My SELinux is bigger than your SELinux. |
| 20:07.52 | eightyeight | the past 2 releases of fedora haven't exactly been stellar, have they? |
| 20:08.10 | ^Migs^ | http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12355-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=31199&messageID=579806&start=43 |
| 20:08.14 | eightyeight | fedora 9, and all its X problems. not 10 with the dbus issues |
| 20:08.19 | eightyeight | s/not/now/ |
| 20:08.35 | goozbach | dbus issssssues? |
| 20:10.32 | eightyeight | you mean dbus hasn't bitten you in the but on fedora 10 with using the gui utilities to update your system? |
| 20:16.01 | sjansen | The dbus issues are the result of a single mistake and a poorly tested fix. |
| 20:16.46 | sjansen | Painful, yes, but hardly outside the norm for Fedora since FC1. |
| 20:19.28 | eightyeight | simple mistakes and poorly tested fixes are hardly outside the norm since fc1? |
| 20:19.31 | sjansen | I would argue that openSUSE's massive PulseAudio fail was a bigger deal since it involved an extended period of head-in-sand as compared to the quickly created and poorly understood dbus change. |
| 20:19.59 | sjansen | As for Ubuntu, the only reason it doesn't have as many problems is that it is much less ambitious. |
| 20:20.40 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:20.41 | eightyeight | oh, i haven't started on opensuse yet. i'm just banged my head on fedora 10 |
| 20:20.46 | sjansen | The fact is, every Linux distro sucks but in different ways. |
| 20:20.47 | jshipley | I always had issues with new releases of Ubuntu bringing in new issues without ever fixing the old ones |
| 20:20.53 | unum | debian has more software and runs on more architectures and has less problems |
| 20:21.01 | unum | sure it's always ten years out of date.... |
| 20:21.24 | sjansen | unum: I agree Debian Stable, released every third ice age runs great on ancient hardware. |
| 20:21.44 | eightyeight | heh |
| 20:22.22 | jshipley | I'd love to see a good, just works, solution for suspend/resume |
| 20:22.24 | sjansen | However, if you want to use software released this century or hardware that runs on A/C from a wall jack instead of the old school approach of vigorously rubbing two sticks together.... |
| 20:22.25 | unum | that's true there's always the whole hey this doesn't support my chipset issue |
| 20:22.26 | eightyeight | debian unstable in my experience has been more stable than fedora, and more bleeding edge |
| 20:22.39 | unum | but seeing as how I haven't bought a new computer in 7 years |
| 20:23.03 | sjansen | eightyeight: Your experience doesn't match mine. |
| 20:23.16 | unum | mine matches eightyeight's |
| 20:23.36 | Tene | jshipley: suspend/resume seem to work fine on my laptop. I don't use it much, but when I click 'suspend', it powers off, and then starts up again when I open the lid. |
| 20:23.49 | Tene | I haven't looked at it any further than that because I don't really need it. |
| 20:24.16 | unum | works great on my laptop ;) |
| 20:24.22 | sjansen | At least Fedora approximates a unified whole moving foward at a steady pace with vision instead of a squabbling room full of pre-schoolers squabbling over which children's TV star is more free. |
| 20:24.23 | jshipley | For me, I think it's a combination of the newer kernel released with Gutsy, my ATI video card, and my wireless card |
| 20:24.50 | jshipley | but still... it worked fine in Ubuntu <= Fiesty |
| 20:25.22 | sjansen | What is something truly innovative that has come out of Debian recently? A graphical installer? Even Ubuntu's anemic contributions dwarf Debian's as far as I can tell. |
| 20:25.40 | jshipley | I could probably get it to work in Debian or Ubuntu, but I just don't care enough about that since I'm not going to school anymore. My laptop is off more often than not |
| 20:26.36 | jshipley | sjansen: Have you checked out the configuration programs that come with Linux Mint? I'd almost call those innovative. |
| 20:26.37 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, Debian is living proof that anarchy might be a workable system but it is hardly desirable. |
| 20:27.47 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanr@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 20:27.54 | jshipley | sjansen: What distro would you say has had truly innovative new features recently? |
| 20:28.15 | sjansen | I mean Debian can't even get its developers to agree on something as basic as the correct way to handle configuration of software during installation. |
| 20:28.56 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:30.32 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 20:31.25 | eightyeight | debian isn't about innovation. it's about being universal- taking everyone else's innovations, and porting them to archetectures and kernels |
| 20:31.34 | maquis | woohoo.. expecting to hunker down for snow around here this weekend |
| 20:31.34 | bonez45 | do any of you run VirtualBox.. and if so, what would minimum h/w requirements be.. to run linux with vb running windows xp/ |
| 20:31.53 | maquis | gotta love living in a state that has 100 snow plows for the entire western half of the state.... |
| 20:32.06 | high_roller | more snow plows the better |
| 20:32.21 | maquis | yeah, but apparently they're too expensive |
| 20:32.21 | sjansen | I would say that Fedora/Red Hat has been producing the most significant improvements to basic infrastructure. openSUSE is starting to show the most willingness to experiments with the desktop. Novell is the leader when it comes to dangerous adopting of Microsoft technologies. Ubuntu has noticeably fewer hard core developers, and with notable exception like bzr and upstart, seems to be in an innovation funk, but its cultural innovations still |
| 20:32.21 | sjansen | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:32.30 | maquis | so, washington doesn't wanna spend no money on it |
| 20:32.47 | maquis | people outside seattle don't have any reason to need to get anywhere, anyways, right? |
| 20:33.38 | sjansen | Debian used to be about innovation, although its implementation sometimes left something to be desired. |
| 20:35.54 | sjansen | I hate dpkg and friends because its functionality is still scattered across a random collection of programs, and its options are still poorly translated from the original Hungarian, but "requires vs suggests" is a powerful concept. |
| 20:36.01 | sjansen | As is dpkg --reconfigure. |
| 20:36.23 | sjansen | Sucky as it is, dselect was still better than anything anyone else came up with for years. |
| 20:36.37 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=Jake@205.158.184.126.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 20:36.58 | sjansen | While most people were ignoring the problems, Debian was trying to make the lousy old Linux font system manageable. |
| 20:37.13 | sjansen | I'll forever be thankful to Debian for alternatives. |
| 20:37.34 | maquis | hey, who all here is in utah preppers? |
| 20:37.53 | sjansen | You get the point. Debian used to be willing to tackle hard problems are show that solutions were possible. |
| 20:38.49 | sjansen | Sure, like GNU Arch they sometimes came up with crazy, painful half-solutions, But remember, Arch eventually lead to Bzr being created (by someone else). |
| 20:38.57 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 20:40.02 | sjansen | These days, though, it seems that Debian Developers would rather argue about the color of the bike shed, and hold back releases until packages no one uses build on architecture no one cares about. |
| 20:40.20 | jshipley | Does any other distros have a 'restricted hardware' dialog like Ubuntu's? |
| 20:40.31 | jshipley | s/Does/Do/ |
| 20:41.19 | goozbach | sjansen: that sounded like an underhanded complement to TL |
| 20:41.30 | sjansen | SUSE had something like it long before Ubuntu. |
| 20:41.37 | goozbach | I won't have you slandering(or is it libel in IRC) my hero! |
| 20:41.47 | goozbach | and is it backhanded? |
| 20:41.51 | goozbach | needs to go home |
| 20:42.02 | goozbach | they bought rockband for the office for christmas |
| 20:42.20 | goozbach | guess which company is going to have reduced productivy now... |
| 20:42.39 | jshipley | goozbach: I love that game... can I come visit? |
| 20:42.54 | goozbach | jshipley: whenever you're in ATL drop a line |
| 20:43.07 | goozbach | we'll fire up the Wii and rock out |
| 20:43.28 | sjansen | goozbach: Tom Lord when crazy a couple years ago because of repeated exposure to Arch. He has been institutionalized, his home has been declared a super fund sight, and victims of Arch are eligible for handicap parking stickers. |
| 20:44.00 | sjansen | s/when/went/ |
| 20:44.17 | sjansen | s/sight/site/ |
| 20:44.33 | sjansen | s/when/went/;s/sight/site/ |
| 20:44.42 | goozbach | yeah |
| 20:44.49 | goozbach | that's where I got my handicap sticker |
| 20:44.56 | goozbach | but I'm in bzr re-hab |
| 20:45.05 | goozbach | which has been helping quite a bit |
| 20:46.08 | goozbach | sjansen: you're just jealous because you didnt' write hackerlab |
| 20:46.11 | jshipley | I used bzr in an operating systems class. I liked it quite a bit. |
| 20:46.26 | jshipley | I've actually been using git recently though... they feel a lot the same to me |
| 20:47.55 | sjansen | They're converging. |
| 20:48.05 | sjansen | git is still sharper at the edges |
| 20:50.23 | sjansen | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/12/12/funny-pictures-desperately-wanted-a-good-grade-in-obediance-school-but-the-final-exam-was-not-what-hed-expected/ |
| 20:50.25 | goozbach | git cut me once |
| 20:53.42 | *** part/#utah high_roller (n=heath@host-12-152-163-48.preciscom.net) |
| 20:54.21 | goozbach | I'm still bleeding |
| 20:54.29 | goozbach | and the sore is festering |
| 20:55.03 | jshipley | what happened? |
| 20:56.25 | goozbach | just haven't been able to use it |
| 20:56.37 | goozbach | I'm being overly dramatic |
| 20:56.44 | goozbach | points at his handicap sticker |
| 20:57.27 | jshipley | I don't think that I've had any issues that wouldn't be solved by reading some documentation |
| 21:00.27 | jshipley | What are the best linux alternatives? I love linux, but sometimes I wonder what else is out there. |
| 21:01.48 | JoshH | imo, freebsd is the best choice after linux |
| 21:02.26 | sjansen | Not OpenSolaris. |
| 21:02.53 | mrpull | sjansen: why the aversion to OpenSolaris? ZFS alone makes it exciting to me. |
| 21:03.32 | sjansen | I've tried to like OpenSolaris, primarily because of ZFS. |
| 21:03.43 | sjansen | But it's still too immature. |
| 21:04.21 | jshipley | anybody tried OpenVMS? |
| 21:04.53 | sjansen | Hardware support isn't there. Installing OpenSolaris is like returing the the heady days of yesteryear when you never knew if your hardware would work with Linux. |
| 21:05.10 | mrpull | sjansen: fair enough |
| 21:05.20 | jshipley | doesn't freebsd have that same issue a lot of the time? |
| 21:05.30 | sjansen | The package manager needs time to mature. Shortly after releasing 2008.5 they pushed out an update that caused the system to eat itself. |
| 21:06.09 | mrpull | solaris package management has always been a sore subject with me |
| 21:06.11 | zzzirk | I've had good luck with hardware on both FreeBSD and OpenBSD |
| 21:06.11 | sjansen | Instead of using NetworkManager, a project that has been maturing nicely, they created their own solution called "Network Auto-Magic". |
| 21:06.18 | zzzirk | but I've never thrown anything really srange at it either |
| 21:08.07 | sjansen | Which would be fine if it actually worked. It kinda of did for 2008.5, but in 2008.11 they moved from "practically zero" interface to "slighly more complex, significantly harder to use" interface. And as another new feature, my networking stopped working. |
| 21:08.18 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 21:08.47 | sjansen | And for some reason they insist on putting SUNW in front of every package name. So you don't install vim, you install SUNWvim. |
| 21:09.08 | sjansen | Although that isn't as big a hassle as it could be because they have very few packages. |
| 21:09.46 | sjansen | I mean seriously, who names something "Network Auto-Magic"? |
| 21:09.59 | Tene | jshipley: I didn't read any docs at all. I just saw 'suspend' in the menu and thought 'Hey, let's see what this does.' |
| 21:10.23 | jshipley | So basically... FreeBSD is a good alternative, and everything else isn't mature enough to be a good alternative yet. |
| 21:10.42 | sjansen | jshipley: That seems like a reasonable summary to me. |
| 21:11.38 | sjansen | Unless you happen to have the same hardware and needs as the developers for the more minor alternatives. |
| 21:13.45 | jshipley | one minor alternative I've been interested in is HaikuOS, but that doesn't seem like it will be viable for at least several more years |
| 21:14.05 | sjansen | Although I might add for certain specific, limited infrastructure needs OpenBSD is a really great choice. |
| 21:15.28 | sjansen | And I still haven't given up on OpenSolaris completely. I really want to use it for a file server, but it looks like I'm going to have to buy special hardware instead of repurposing what I have right now. |
| 21:16.28 | jshipley | According to Distrowatch... Linux Mint ranks higher than Fedora |
| 21:17.03 | sjansen | Rates higher at what? Ability to manipulate the arbitrary DistoWatch rating? |
| 21:17.03 | jshipley | So a derivative of a Debian derivative is doing better (on their scale) than Fedora? |
| 21:17.28 | peno | it's minty fresh. |
| 21:17.43 | sjansen | Better at what? DistroWatch ranking is indicative of nothing more than DistroWatch ranking? |
| 21:18.04 | sjansen | I mean, don't get me wrong. I enjoy a useless statistic just as much as the next guy, but... |
| 21:18.30 | jshipley | It's not completely inaccurate... the most popular distros are generally towards the top |
| 21:18.57 | jshipley | but yeah... it doesn't tell much of a story |
| 21:19.15 | jshipley | then again, it's pretty much the only distro popularity ranking I've ever seen |
| 21:19.52 | sjansen | If you're going to choose based on popularity, install Windows. |
| 21:20.09 | sjansen | Otherwise, play around with different options until you find what fits you best. |
| 21:20.45 | sjansen | Then swear a blood oath to DESTROY ALL HEATHENS WHO DISAGREE! |
| 21:21.46 | jshipley | I don't use the rankings to help me decide what to use, but I do go to distrowatch once in a while to try to discover new distributions |
| 21:22.26 | Heartsbane | jshipley: I like debian based distros as much as the next guy, but distrowatch is to easily manipulated |
| 21:22.36 | Heartsbane | take Linspire around 2 years ago |
| 21:22.40 | sjansen | The problem I have with DistroWatch is that it annoys me when a student asks about $RANDOM_DISTRO that's temporarily at the top of DistroWatch rankings for the week. |
| 21:23.12 | jshipley | Right, it's one of those 'fun but useless' stats |
| 21:23.31 | sjansen | If you haven't been around the block a few times, its too easy to think that more people are actually using PCLinuxOS or Linux Mint than Fedora or Ubuntu. |
| 21:23.46 | Heartsbane | I rarely find any useless to be fun... except Youtube |
| 21:24.54 | Heartsbane | s/any/anything/ |
| 21:25.01 | sjansen | If you're interested in more obscure distros, give Arch Linux a try too. A couple of my (crazy) co-workers absolutely love it. |
| 21:25.33 | jshipley | sjansen: I've tried Arch, I liked it, but I didn't stay |
| 21:25.37 | Heartsbane | um ... GnuSense is pretty obscure and nearly useless |
| 21:25.43 | sjansen | And the package manager for Foresight Linux is really interesting in theory. (If only it didn't suck in reality every time I try it.) |
| 21:26.08 | jshipley | sjansen: Is that the one that's supposed to make it easy to roll back updates? |
| 21:26.15 | sjansen | Yup. |
| 21:26.54 | jshipley | So if a kernel update kills your wireless you can roll it back instead of leaving Arch for something else? |
| 21:27.04 | sjansen | It's called Conary. It's what the children would look like if RPM shacked up with SVN. |
| 21:27.25 | sjansen | In theory, sure. |
| 21:27.33 | maquis | hmmm... interesting |
| 21:27.40 | maquis | it's an interesting theory |
| 21:28.21 | sjansen | It's actually based on another distro called rPath which was created by a former Red Hat employee. (Hence the vaguely RPM-ish overtones.) |
| 21:28.51 | jshipley | One issue I've had with Ubuntu: Kernels were always being updated before virtualbox. It was usually possible to download virtualbox packages from unstable repositories to get it working again, but still |
| 21:29.10 | jshipley | If a kernel upgrade is going to break other packages, shouldn't those packages be updated when the kernel is? |
| 21:29.26 | Sargun | sugar |
| 21:30.50 | tensai | jshipley: I noticed that same problem a couple weeks ago when I tried to use virtualbox |
| 21:31.14 | tensai | had to go back to an earlier kernel instead |
| 21:31.51 | JoshH | ya, that's bugged me before too |
| 21:31.55 | sjansen | The OpenSolaris package manager also has roll back capabilities, but instead of using an SVN like repo it uses ZFS snapshots. |
| 21:32.07 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 21:32.26 | sjansen | One distro I haven't played with, but that sounds interesting, is Nexenta. It's Ubuntu packages running on the OpenSolaris kernel. |
| 21:32.28 | JoshH | i just wish debian was updated more often and was supported for longer, then we wouldn't need ubuntu |
| 21:32.56 | sjansen | Nexenta also has a modified version of apt that uses ZFS snapshots to provide roll back. |
| 21:34.23 | sjansen | JoshH: Ubuntu is more than a more frequent release cycle. Ubuntu is also a different culture. More friendly, less fragmented. |
| 21:36.50 | JoshH | i just use it as an up to date, yet stable debian desktop, or an LTS debian server. |
| 21:37.28 | JoshH | i think the debian culture is much more friendly these days than in the past |
| 21:39.07 | JoshH | i don't know much about the ubuntu culture, but i've noticed that the ubuntu forums and irc channel have a lot of crap to wade through |
| 21:39.35 | JoshH | especially the channel |
| 21:39.48 | sjansen | You mean a buncha clueless newbies answering questions from clueless newbies? |
| 21:40.13 | JoshH | that, and just a lot of noise |
| 21:40.18 | maquis | hey, i occasionally resemble that comment |
| 21:40.19 | maquis | ! |
| 21:40.39 | jshipley | I think that Ubuntu has helped Debian a lot by distracting a lot of the clueless. |
| 21:40.48 | jshipley | Then again, some of the smartest people I know use Ubuntu |
| 21:41.20 | jshipley | I had a prof that finally gave in and switched to Ubuntu because it worked better with hardware he had to use |
| 21:41.26 | maquis | ubuntu and i still don't get along well |
| 21:41.55 | JoshH | it's a great distro, and i don't agree with people that say "if you aren't a noob you should use something geared for more advanced users like fedora" |
| 21:42.02 | maquis | debian and i have been getting along well for a while,though |
| 21:42.14 | JoshH | it's just that some things bug me about it, like the kernel updates, and the forums/irc are mostly useless |
| 21:42.16 | maquis | JoshH: agreed.. they should be recommending gentoo |
| 21:42.17 | maquis | :P |
| 21:42.27 | Sargun | I LOVE MY GENTOO. |
| 21:42.29 | JoshH | nobody should be recommending gentoo to anyone |
| 21:42.35 | maquis | :) |
| 21:42.43 | maquis | i have no problem with what distro anyone else uses |
| 21:42.55 | sjansen | I thought Gentoo finally died last year. |
| 21:42.58 | tensai | friends don't let friends use gentoo |
| 21:43.02 | maquis | i just find that i don't get along with certain distros, particularly when they try to be too helpful |
| 21:43.11 | maquis | because i rarely want what everyone else wants |
| 21:43.29 | Sargun | Everybody, use gentoo or I'll beat you! |
| 21:43.29 | Sargun | ;-P |
| 21:43.34 | JoshH | i only started using ubuntu when i got sick of manually babysitting the upgrades every day after years of debian testing/unstable |
| 21:43.53 | sjansen | Gentoo was a great way to learn about Linux. A lousy way to get anything useful done with a computer. |
| 21:44.00 | jshipley | I used Ubuntu from Hoary 5.04 to Gutsy 7.10. |
| 21:44.16 | jshipley | LFS isn't a bad way to learn about Linux. That was a fun weekend project. |
| 21:44.26 | JoshH | i installed feisty once, but didn't use it on my workstation until hardy |
| 21:45.35 | tensai | I tried out feisty and loved it. all my desktops are ubuntu now. |
| 21:45.35 | sjansen | One of my complaints with Ubuntu LTS is that it's hard to see where LTS packages end and community based packages begin. |
| 21:46.00 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 21:46.04 | mrpull | sjansen: maybe they should prepend the packages with LTS ;-) |
| 21:46.06 | mrpull | ? |
| 21:46.22 | jshipley | It was the Fiesty->Gutsy move that started to kill the Ubuntu fun for me |
| 21:46.25 | mrpull | or SUNW or something similar |
| 21:46.37 | sjansen | heh |
| 21:46.56 | sjansen | mrpull: Well played. |
| 21:47.08 | mrpull | blushes |
| 21:47.25 | jshipley | I'd keep running Feisty, but I want newer software than that |
| 21:47.32 | JoshH | sjansen, ya |
| 21:47.33 | jshipley | >< |
| 21:47.51 | JoshH | that's why i wish debian just did some things differently to negate the need for ubuntu in the first place |
| 21:50.14 | jshipley | I'm hoping that the state of Linux will advance in the next five years as much as it has advanced in the last five |
| 21:50.56 | ^Migs^ | there's no reason to think it won't |
| 21:51.10 | mrpull | is there that much headroom for advancement? |
| 21:51.41 | ^Migs^ | Linux needs more bling |
| 21:51.49 | ^Migs^ | and needs to be all web 2.0y |
| 21:52.03 | jshipley | ^Migs^ have you tried Mint? |
| 21:52.41 | ^Migs^ | haha no, but I've seen the screenshots |
| 21:53.34 | sjansen | There's lots of room to improve Linux, especially now that we've caught up with Windows enough to stop copying it and start experimenting with new solutions. |
| 21:53.49 | ^Migs^ | yeah, Microsoft isn't really innovating anymore |
| 21:54.48 | sjansen | I'm especially glad that we have one project making crazy big changes (KDE) and another making more deliberate, thoughful changes (GNOME). |
| 21:55.07 | JoshH | ya but who uses kde |
| 21:55.09 | maquis | i'm really grateful that there's systems that work well on underpowered machines... |
| 21:57.07 | *** join/#utah utahcon1 (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 21:57.21 | sjansen | JoshH: Brave, selfless souls. Perhaps one day KDE users will be remembered with the same respect (and "sucks to be you" smugness) that the men pushed through the D-day grinder will be forever remembered. |
| 21:59.29 | tensai | JoshH: I use kde and *gasp* like it |
| 22:00.38 | tensai | haven't used kde 4, so I can't comment on the rumors I've heard about its lack of quality |
| 22:01.03 | JoshH | i haven't tried kde since 3 was new |
| 22:01.38 | sjansen | KDE 4 is pretty and as of the latest openSUSE beta release still too unreliable for daily use. |
| 22:02.53 | JoshH | the main thing that bugged me about kde was the look of qt, the K's on everything, and the mega menus |
| 22:03.00 | JoshH | so things, i guess |
| 22:03.06 | jshipley | KDE 4 takes some pretty large steps forward and many smaller steps back |
| 22:03.22 | JoshH | mostly the look of qt though |
| 22:03.41 | tensai | I tried out gnome again when I installed gutsy last. it was fine and all, but I one killer feature was missing. |
| 22:03.53 | jshipley | tensai: what was that killer feature? |
| 22:03.56 | tensai | I always bind meta+T to launch a terminal |
| 22:04.07 | tensai | couldn't for the life of me figure out how to do that |
| 22:04.20 | tensai | and then meta+v for vim |
| 22:04.39 | sjansen | Which key is meta again? |
| 22:04.41 | jshipley | by meta+t do you mean alt+t or esc t? |
| 22:04.41 | JoshH | gnome itself isn't great, but it doesn't bother me and i like gtk |
| 22:05.04 | JoshH | i don't really use any features of gnome at all |
| 22:06.35 | JoshH | but that's ok, since it doesn't have a lot of features |
| 22:07.16 | jshipley | different tools just seem to work better for me and seem to be better integrated using gnome |
| 22:07.24 | jshipley | compared to enlightenment or xfce or... |
| 22:07.35 | jshipley | KDE was pretty nice too, I used that for a year or so |
| 22:09.20 | JoshH | my first few years with linux i switched around all the time between fluxbox, windowmaker, enlightenment, etc, then stuck with gnome for a while. then when my computer became slow and crappy, i used xfce for a long time, then switched back to gnome once i started using ubuntu on decent hardware |
| 22:09.47 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:09.55 | fozzmoo | installs 6 750GB drives into a server. |
| 22:10.24 | sjansen | tensai: Fine, if you wont tell me what Meta is, I won't tell you how to use <Alt>t to launch a terminal or <Alt>v to launch gvim. |
| 22:10.58 | JoshH | i launch terminals with scroll lock |
| 22:11.03 | JoshH | but it's a compiz binding |
| 22:11.05 | tensai | sjansen: sorry, phone call |
| 22:11.25 | tensai | I use the windows key |
| 22:11.33 | JoshH | also, if you aren't using urxvtc, you should |
| 22:11.51 | tensai | JoshH: heck of a name |
| 22:11.54 | sjansen | gnome-terminal all the way, baby |
| 22:12.17 | jshipley | Gnome seems to be the path of least resistance for me. It's already installed, stuff works pretty well, things don't get in my way (except the occasional key binding), and it doesn't look too bad |
| 22:12.21 | JoshH | all the terminal windows you want, one process, and the same memory usage as one |
| 22:12.28 | JoshH | it's basically aterm with unicode |
| 22:12.42 | jshipley | yeahconsole for me... with an embedded urxvt running screen :) |
| 22:12.56 | sjansen | GNOME's goal is to be the path of least resistance. |
| 22:13.13 | JoshH | well, 2 processes, one for the d |
| 22:13.41 | JoshH | actually that's the only one |
| 22:14.32 | Sargun | I hate dbus. |
| 22:15.02 | tensai | ~dbus Sargun |
| 22:15.24 | Sargun | tensai, have you ever programmed with dbus? |
| 22:16.01 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:16.12 | sjansen | tensai: Okay, using the Windows key for both terminal and vim is a little bit of a power user question, but it can be done in 30 seconds. |
| 22:16.17 | sjansen | I just did it. |
| 22:16.43 | Sargun | Vi FTL, Nano FTW |
| 22:17.03 | sjansen | Seriously? |
| 22:17.21 | sjansen | Sargun: Your problem is that I actually believe you might be serious when you say something like that. |
| 22:18.01 | Sargun | I am serious, why wouldn't I be? |
| 22:18.52 | maquis | because ~flog Sargun |
| 22:18.59 | Sargun | :-( |
| 22:19.08 | sjansen | Well, the most egregios sin of Nano is wrapping. |
| 22:19.12 | maquis | Sargun: :) |
| 22:19.14 | sjansen | egregious |
| 22:19.21 | Sargun | sjansen, nano -w |
| 22:19.42 | sjansen | Of course, but you didn't say that. |
| 22:19.42 | JoshH | why would you ever want to use anything besides vim for anything? |
| 22:20.09 | sjansen | The second most egregious problem with nano is that it's not vim. |
| 22:20.15 | mrpull | I wanted to punch somebody the other day when visudo opened nano |
| 22:20.15 | sjansen | It's not even emacs. |
| 22:20.30 | Sargun | JoshH, because nano -w ctrl + x makes sense. |
| 22:20.43 | JoshH | what about for actual editing |
| 22:20.44 | sjansen | ~slap Sargun |
| 22:20.45 | ibot | ACTION slaps Sargun, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 22:20.55 | Sargun | ":wq!" -- that makes no sense |
| 22:21.00 | JoshH | what about :x |
| 22:21.07 | JoshH | and actually, that does make sense |
| 22:21.08 | sjansen | : - ex mode |
| 22:21.10 | Sargun | and if I was an amnesiac, at least I'd still be able to get out of nano, the help is right there. |
| 22:21.11 | sjansen | w - save |
| 22:21.15 | sjansen | q - quit |
| 22:21.18 | sjansen | ! - I mean it! |
| 22:21.24 | sjansen | Makes perfect sense to me. |
| 22:21.25 | Sargun | w - write |
| 22:21.29 | Tene | Sargun: are you an amnesiac? |
| 22:21.50 | sjansen | You laziness when it comes to learning one of the most important tools for a programmer or system administrator is not a problem with Vim. |
| 22:21.52 | Sargun | Tene, it would explain a bit, wouldn't it? |
| 22:21.53 | jshipley | I've never liked nano... how do you undo in nano? |
| 22:21.58 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:22.02 | sjansen | It is a personal problem you'll have to work through on your own. |
| 22:22.05 | Tene | jshipley: quit without saving. |
| 22:22.07 | Sargun | jshipley, Simple, nano users don't make mistakes. |
| 22:22.26 | JoshH | another thing that bugs me about ubuntu |
| 22:22.31 | sjansen | Until you do, we will ridicule you while we edit circles round you using just our pinkies. |
| 22:22.32 | JoshH | whenever you see a doc on something |
| 22:22.35 | JoshH | it always says to use nano |
| 22:22.39 | jshipley | so if I've made 10 changes, and I accidentally make an 11th I don't want I have to lose my first 10 to undo the 11th? |
| 22:23.06 | Sargun | Again, nano users don't have accidents. |
| 22:23.22 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:23.41 | sjansen | Except when it wraps a line in a configuration file because no one ever says "use nano -w". |
| 22:23.42 | jshipley | nano is the notepad of the console |
| 22:24.26 | JoshH | before i learned what vi was in very early linux days, i remember using joe |
| 22:24.30 | sjansen | Recommending gedit is better than recommending nano. |
| 22:24.40 | jshipley | gedit is a pretty decent editor |
| 22:24.42 | jshipley | I like it |
| 22:24.48 | JoshH | i'd rather use gvim |
| 22:24.52 | jshipley | Kate is also pretty good |
| 22:24.58 | Sargun | ooffice. |
| 22:24.59 | Sargun | ;-P |
| 22:25.01 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:25.04 | sjansen | Just don't confuse kate with kwrite. |
| 22:25.08 | Sargun | JoshH, I've use joe, ed, and nano |
| 22:25.24 | jshipley | ooffice is not a text editor... what a horrible thing to suggest :p |
| 22:25.37 | jshipley | emacs is really nice :) |
| 22:25.46 | sjansen | Sargun: What are you, a philosophy major? |
| 22:25.47 | JoshH | i hate openoffice |
| 22:25.52 | jshipley | I'm also starting to like vim again |
| 22:25.54 | JoshH | vim, gvim, abiword, and gnumeric |
| 22:26.15 | Sargun | sjansen, I've considered going into philosophy. ;-P |
| 22:26.18 | JoshH | and i almost never use abiword anyway, but do use gnumeric quite often |
| 22:26.47 | JoshH | abiword is just for opening .doc files that some jerk sent me |
| 22:27.14 | JoshH | sometimes people will take a screenshot of a windows tracert and send it to me as a .doc file |
| 22:27.20 | JoshH | that's the worst |
| 22:27.53 | Sargun | that's evil. |
| 22:28.08 | Sargun | I tried google docs, that works only for collaboration |
| 22:29.13 | jshipley | who needs open office when they have vim and latex |
| 22:29.53 | Sargun | I don't know why people don't just use HTML instead of having a dozen different document formats |
| 22:29.59 | jshipley | open office math seems like it's not much more than a wysiwyg wrapper on latex |
| 22:30.01 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:30.30 | jshipley | html isn't nearly as powerful as latex for formatting. I'd hate to have to do any advanced math formulas in html |
| 22:31.19 | jshipley | have you ever seen any books typeset with html? |
| 22:31.21 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:34.34 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:41.36 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:46.34 | sjansen | Ever played with MathML? |
| 22:47.04 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 22:47.52 | maquis | i've got .mobi and .prc books... |
| 22:47.57 | maquis | not with math in them, though |
| 22:50.30 | jshipley | I've heard of it, but I haven't tried it |
| 22:52.03 | fozzmoo | maquis: HI! |
| 22:58.46 | tensai | maquis: aren't you supposed to be busy this time of year? |
| 22:59.21 | fozzmoo | They don't have her out on the corner with a sign anymore. ;-) |
| 22:59.36 | maquis | tensai: of course |
| 22:59.49 | maquis | just remembered to open my irc window again |
| 22:59.53 | maquis | fozzmoo: hello |
| 23:00.04 | fozzmoo | maquis: Haven't seen you around these parts in a while. |
| 23:00.05 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 23:00.59 | maquis | fozzmoo: yeah... my server was having problems for a while, and then i just didn't get around to connecting into irc from work again |
| 23:01.02 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 23:01.12 | fozzmoo | maquis: It's good to see you around again. |
| 23:01.12 | maquis | thanks! |
| 23:01.18 | maquis | it's fun to be around again :) |
| 23:01.28 | maquis | is really looking forward to christmas |
| 23:01.37 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 23:02.02 | fozzmoo | wonders... will utahcon stay? |
| 23:02.11 | maquis | lol |
| 23:02.22 | maquis | prob'ly not |
| 23:05.01 | fozzmoo | Wow. He's still here. |
| 23:08.36 | tensai | fozzmoo: his previous record is 12 minutes. should we start a utahcon betting pool? |
| 23:08.54 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 23:09.21 | tensai | maquis: I did all my christmas shopping this year on amazon :) |
| 23:09.29 | tensai | wait, I guess not all. but most. |
| 23:11.56 | levi | I gorged myself on sushi for lunch. Mmm. :) |
| 23:12.14 | levi | And now it's time to go home. |
| 23:18.37 | fozzmoo | levi: where did you go? |
| 23:18.48 | fozzmoo | Eh. He's probably gone now. |
| 23:18.50 | tensai | fozzmoo: he went home |
| 23:18.58 | tensai | :P |
| 23:26.49 | sjansen | gives tensai a decent desktop for Christmas |
| 23:27.03 | sjansen | gives Sargun a decent text editor for Christmas |
| 23:28.15 | jshipley | would give sjansen a decent OpenSolaris, but it isn't ready yet |
| 23:28.18 | maquis | tensai: cool |
| 23:28.26 | maquis | i do most of mine on amazon too |
| 23:28.40 | sjansen | jshipley: I'll take a gift certificate. |
| 23:28.54 | maquis | sjansen: can i have an amazon gift certificate? |
| 23:29.24 | tensai | maquis: I figure if I'm going to ship it far away, might as well buy it online. plus I'm lazy and don't like leaving my fortress of solitude. |
| 23:29.37 | maquis | tensai: agreed |
| 23:31.37 | Sargun | maquis, you still with amazon? |
| 23:33.30 | maquis | Sargun: yup |
| 23:40.47 | maquis | needs better headphones... |
| 23:44.05 | tensai | user is complaining his internet speeds are wrong. he's set up for 512k but is only getting 500k. |
| 23:48.09 | jshipley | lol |
| 23:48.17 | jshipley | it's better than I used to get with dialup |
| 23:48.25 | jshipley | my 56k connection usually got something like 2k |
| 23:49.31 | jshipley | you should just tell him that his computer is lying and he's really getting 512k |
| 23:49.40 | jshipley | >:) |
| 23:53.03 | tensai | in a sense his computer is lying. it's not reporting the IP overhead. |
| 23:54.46 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 23:54.46 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 23:54.57 | elg | -chat now i |
| 23:54.57 | jshipley | any idea what speed he's measuring? is he just downloading stuff? |
| 23:54.57 | brac | now i have time to admit I've never been to Africa. Is it kinda vampire or kinda chick |
| 23:55.18 | elg | ~measure jshipley |
| 23:56.26 | jshipley | not bad... according to speedtest.net, I'm getting 8649k download and 9043k upload |
| 23:56.40 | jshipley | I wish I got that at home :) |
| 23:58.52 | maquis | brac: nice |
