| 00:19.39 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
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| 02:26.00 | levi | Man, the PLUG thread is making me laugh. |
| 02:27.43 | Tene | what is it? |
| 02:28.39 | levi | Currently an argument about the Fed, and whether it's public, private, or somewhere inbetween. And various stuff about the Founding Fathers and whatnot. |
| 02:29.15 | levi | And some really cool arguments, like: "Look in your phone book! The Federal Reserve will be right next to Federal Express!" and "Look at federalreserve.gov!" |
| 02:29.39 | levi | And, "This documentary you should watch says I'm right!" |
| 02:31.30 | levi | Because, we all know that no one would ever make a documentary that was less than perfectly honest about the facts or how we ought to interpret them. |
| 02:32.06 | Tene | I think I saw a documentary about that once... |
| 02:36.03 | levi | Next thing you know, someone is going to mention that JFK was killed shortly after signing a bill that would supposedly start the printing of silver-backed treasury notes. |
| 02:38.50 | levi | A lot of otherwise level-headed people get drawn into Fed-related conspiracy theories. It's really funny. |
| 02:46.11 | levi | Tene: Did you see the Factor code I was showing off earlier? |
| 02:51.18 | levi | http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=235 |
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| 03:19.48 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
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| 03:56.56 | tensai | herlo: sorry to hear your misfortune |
| 04:11.11 | levi | Sounds like Guru Labs has been hit pretty hard. |
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| 04:36.35 | tensai | holy cow. step away for a few hours and plug explodes in an off-topic thread. |
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| 04:49.52 | elg | my econ professor made many good points about why a fixed amount of currency (be it gold, rocks, shells, whatever) isn't ideal, but alas I can't remember them |
| 04:50.23 | Reilithion | Might one of those points be a changing population? |
| 04:51.44 | elg | it may well |
| 04:52.19 | elg | mostly i remember being skeptical about fiat currency and then thoroughly convinced |
| 04:52.39 | Reilithion | I'm no economist, but it occurs to me that if your currency system consists of 12 shells, you'd be hard pressed to support a population of greater than about 12 people. |
| 04:53.34 | elg | this whole gold divisibility thing sounds nice, but when you start trading in your gold ring for a new car and people start ripping apart electronics to get at the gold bits inside... |
| 04:54.18 | Reilithion | That and I question gold's inherent value. |
| 04:54.41 | elg | gold has no inherent value, I think. its two virtues are it's somewhat scarce and it's kind of pretty |
| 04:54.54 | Reilithion | Exactly. |
| 04:55.07 | elg | when it comes down to true poverty, nobody cares about gold. they want food and shelter |
| 04:55.12 | Reilithion | That and it has good conductive properties. Hence it is in electronics to begin with. |
| 04:55.18 | elg | if having gold gets me food and shelter, i'll want to have gold |
| 04:55.25 | elg | if having green paper gets me food and shelter... |
| 04:55.57 | elg | right, and it would be a shame to artificially drive up the value of gold such that it can't be cost effective to use it in electronics |
| 04:56.21 | elg | i doubt there's any physical thing that's both scarce and useless |
| 04:56.22 | levi | Whee, 'overabundance of educated people' |
| 04:56.31 | elg | :) |
| 04:56.39 | levi | Gimme a freakin' break. |
| 04:56.43 | fozzmoo | walks in |
| 04:56.52 | elg | if there is such a mythical thing, it'd make a great currency base. :) |
| 04:57.07 | Reilithion | Scarce and useless... |
| 04:57.11 | levi | Freaking market worshippers. |
| 04:58.11 | Reilithion | Dilithium. |
| 04:58.32 | elg | definitely useful. sorry |
| 04:58.33 | levi | Gold has all sorts of great properties that make it widely useful. |
| 04:58.42 | Reilithion | Useful for what? |
| 04:58.47 | elg | warp drive |
| 04:58.55 | Reilithion | lol |
| 04:59.07 | levi | elg: No, that's what *dilithium* is useful for. |
| 04:59.15 | elg | i thought that's what he asked |
| 04:59.27 | elg | we already established gold is useful in electronics. |
| 04:59.29 | elg | for one |
| 04:59.36 | elg | and wedding rings |
| 04:59.42 | levi | It's useful in electronics, in space travel, etc. |
| 04:59.43 | elg | though mine is titanium |
| 04:59.49 | elg | and almost fits again |
| 05:00.30 | levi | I have a gold/white gold wedding ring and a silver ring I got from being in a friend's wedding party. |
| 05:00.47 | high_roller | I can't stand to wear rings |
| 05:01.02 | high_roller | I don't even wear my wedding ring |
| 05:01.22 | elg | i haven't for a long time (since I finally decided wearing it on my pinky was silly) |
| 05:01.37 | elg | nobody but ibot has hit on me |
| 05:02.16 | levi | I didn't wear mine for a while because of a skin problem, and I got hit on once. |
| 05:02.22 | levi | It was amusing. |
| 05:03.00 | high_roller | if you count the question "how tall are you?" getting hit on, then I get hit on all the time, if not, then I never get hit on :) |
| 05:03.18 | levi | I was at a party, which was at the home of my wife's best friend. I was bored out of my mind, so she let me play WoW on her computer. Some girl came in and kept trying to engage me in conversation. |
| 05:03.42 | fozzmoo | I've never been seriously hit on since I got married. |
| 05:03.44 | levi | I tried to be minimally polite while mostly ignoring her, but she persisted. |
| 05:03.56 | fozzmoo | I'm convinced it's because I'm grotesquely unattractive. |
| 05:04.29 | fozzmoo | Or maybe it's like... if they were interested, that interest quickly disappeared when I opened my mouth. |
| 05:04.54 | levi | The latter and my poor wardrobe/grooming choices were always my problem. |
| 05:06.57 | levi | Anyway, afterward I told my wife and her friend about it. She called the girl up and kind of probed to see if she was really hitting on me, and indeed she was. And she was sad to hear that I was married. Alas. |
| 05:06.59 | fozzmoo | I did have an ex-girlfriend chat with me online after I was married. She had gotten divorced and was saying really scary stuff like, "I really just need a man right now." |
| 05:07.34 | elg | did you send her a picture of ballmer? |
| 05:07.38 | fozzmoo | I had been married about 3 years at that time and I remember pushing myself away from the keyboard and just staring at the screen from 6 feet away for about 5 minutes. |
| 05:08.43 | fozzmoo | Nothing came of it (thank goodness) and she hooked up with some role-play gamer from Indiana and moved there to live and game with him. |
| 05:09.12 | elg | -chat i need |
| 05:09.13 | brac | i need to be pretty dull. I mean, Rand's arch enemies are mysticism and collectivism. The LDS church is essentially a mystic collective. |
| 05:11.15 | levi | I keep writing replies to the PLUG discussion and deleting them before sending. |
| 05:11.41 | elg | that's the trouble with rational thought |
| 05:12.19 | fozzmoo | levi: Do as I do. Just make smart-ass remarks. :) |
| 05:12.58 | levi | Heh, that last brac quote was mostly something I said. |
| 05:14.18 | elg | -chat is elg |
| 05:14.18 | levi | I love how those Libertarian guys get caught up in their nicely reasoned theoretical perfect world, and completely lose touch with reality. |
| 05:14.18 | brac | is elg |
| 05:14.38 | elg | is elg completely insane? |
| 05:14.41 | elg | -chat is elg |
| 05:14.41 | brac | is elg completely insane? |
| 05:14.54 | levi | Backing your currency with gold isn't using the gold, it's preventing it from being used. |
| 05:15.19 | levi | Gold is indispensible in modern electronics. |
| 05:16.15 | fozzmoo | That's, perhaps, the best argument for not being on the gold standard. |
| 05:16.46 | levi | It would be obvious if they bothered to think about it. |
| 05:16.51 | elg | yup. we need some scarce useless element |
| 05:16.54 | elg | good luck finding |
| 05:16.58 | fozzmoo | Air. |
| 05:17.02 | fozzmoo | Clean air. |
| 05:17.14 | elg | useful |
| 05:17.20 | elg | CO2 |
| 05:17.22 | fozzmoo | oh. |
| 05:17.25 | fozzmoo | Useful for plants. |
| 05:17.40 | Reilithion | Promethium. |
| 05:17.48 | elg | not scarce or fixed, but if people horde CO2 that'll take care of the whole emissions thing |
| 05:17.48 | levi | I swear they really want to turn back the hands of time so we can all live on big farms or something. |
| 05:17.51 | fozzmoo | But wouldn't that be ironic. Everyone would, essentially, using their Hummers to, in effect, print more money. |
| 05:18.15 | fozzmoo | levi: There is a very compelling point to be made for the anchor-nature of the gold standard. |
| 05:18.23 | fozzmoo | You're right in that it won't really work anymore... |
| 05:18.47 | fozzmoo | but the inflation charts don't like- going off the gold standard set inflation off its tracks |
| 05:18.52 | fozzmoo | s/like/lie/ |
| 05:19.07 | fozzmoo | But we can't just simply reinstate gold as the base currency. |
| 05:19.15 | levi | We can live on big Jeffersonian farms and worship at the feet of the Founding Fathers and stuff. |
| 05:19.25 | elg | can we still have the tubes? |
| 05:19.34 | Reilithion | We could go Spartan and use iron. |
| 05:19.40 | levi | No; tubes require gold to build. :P |
| 05:19.54 | fozzmoo | We could make up a new element. :) |
| 05:20.01 | fozzmoo | Call it... aether. |
| 05:20.23 | fozzmoo | Or anti-matter. |
| 05:20.24 | Reilithion | Oh hell, let's just make up a cryptographic information currency and use it. |
| 05:20.39 | fozzmoo | That's scarce. |
| 05:21.11 | Reilithion | We get the government to cryptographically sign a set number of notes. |
| 05:21.32 | Reilithion | And that's it. No more. |
| 05:22.29 | Reilithion | Uhmn... that was my whole plan. You guys thought I was going somewhere with this, or are you just being quiet? |
| 05:23.11 | levi | What we really need to do is find a nice place for the Libertarians to all go and set up their 'Utopia' and see how it works out for them. |
| 05:23.34 | Reilithion | Nah, no matter how it fails they'll just blame the rest of the world for not joining in. |
| 05:24.05 | Reilithion | "It was external influences that made our Utopia crumble." |
| 05:24.17 | levi | Sure, but then they'll be shunned like the Communists are now for having failed. We won't have to pretend to take them seriously anymore. |
| 05:24.31 | Reilithion | Good point. |
| 05:25.16 | levi | Though they probably won't end up killing quite as many people in their experiment. |
| 05:26.27 | Reilithion | Well, that'd take care of the liberal-liberal (personal freedoms-commercial freedoms) corner of the square. Communism was liberal-restrictive. Despotism is restrictive-restrictive, and I'm pretty sure we don't take that seriously anymore. What was restrictive-liberal? |
| 05:26.50 | Reilithion | Or am I mixing up Communism and Socialism? |
| 05:27.47 | levi | Finding definitions of Communism and Socialism that everyone agrees on is difficult. |
| 05:28.11 | levi | For Marx, Communism was the end goal and Socialism was a path to it. |
| 05:28.54 | levi | But he called for a revolution and temporary dictatorship of the people in order to get there. |
| 05:29.00 | levi | No one really got past that point. |
| 05:29.09 | Reilithion | 'cause it sucked. |
| 05:29.12 | fozzmoo | Hint: See Chavez in Venezuela |
| 05:29.37 | fozzmoo | Or Castro in Cuba. |
| 05:31.30 | Reilithion | Well, I need sleep. |
| 05:31.55 | Reilithion | goodnight all |
| 05:31.58 | fozzmoo | G'night |
| 05:38.09 | levi | Man, Andy Bradford is really clogging the PLUG tubes tonight. Didn't anyone tell him that it's not a dump truck you can just dump stuff on? |
| 05:38.21 | levi | My internets probably won't arrive for a few days now. |
| 05:49.33 | rsimpkins | levi: Do I need to block this guy? |
| 05:50.01 | rsimpkins | Is he just pationate, or is it crossing a line? |
| 05:51.42 | Supaplex | yes^3 |
| 05:52.27 | high_roller | what is he up too? I used to work with andy |
| 05:53.07 | rsimpkins | I don't have time to read every post. Can someone please send me a post they think goes beyond acceptable decorum? |
| 05:53.58 | Supaplex | has /dev/null for days like this |
| 05:54.59 | elg | ~sjansen++ |
| 05:55.14 | elg | rsimpkins: you don't need to block bradipo |
| 05:55.22 | elg | he's an upstanding member if ever there was one |
| 05:55.26 | elg | misses bradipo |
| 05:56.27 | elg | i think levi was just referring to volume of posts |
| 05:56.58 | elg | his posts are civil and thought-out, though I can't vouch for the underlying principles one way or another |
| 05:57.26 | elg | thinks gold standard would be dumb, but isn't prepared to unconditionally defend fiat |
| 05:57.34 | rsimpkins | elg: Ahh, okay. That makes sense. The ones I saw didn't seem offensive. |
| 06:11.41 | tensai | high_roller: did you work at sco? |
| 06:20.40 | levi | rsimpkins: I was just being funny. My mail client happened to show something like 15 posts from him all in a row. |
| 06:21.58 | levi | I certainly wouldn't argue for banning him. |
| 06:30.49 | tensai | ~lart cisco arp tables |
| 06:30.49 | ibot | tries to shut cisco arp tables up |
| 06:31.24 | tensai | cisco routers have an annoying habit of hanging onto arp entries forever |
| 06:37.11 | Sargun | uhm |
| 06:37.20 | Sargun | Cisco routes have annoying habits. |
| 06:37.37 | levi | Hmm, even with an order 1 butterworth filter, I'm still getting a bit of ringing. |
| 06:38.16 | Sargun | o.O? |
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| 06:52.28 | levi | Ahh, no wonder. The filter array goes from 1.0 to 0.5 in one step. |
| 07:12.13 | levi | There we go. The new version is way slower, but actually works. |
| 07:36.43 | Sargun | Yay for stupid, proprietary applications! |
| 07:39.42 | Supaplex | oh fr%*@%(in baby blue cisco console cable, where art thou? |
| 07:45.46 | Sargun | Supaplex, haha. |
| 07:45.57 | Sargun | Supaplex, and if you buy another one from Cisco it's $35 |
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| 08:42.57 | Tene | http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2008-12-05#i_739210 -- It's just secret rumors so far, but it's coming soon. |
| 08:54.28 | Sargun | you seem far too sane for a parrot developer. |
| 09:08.12 | Tene | Howso? |
| 09:22.30 | Tene | What about me seems unusually sane to you? |
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| 14:38.53 | elg | "And the photo frame support view the photos in all subdirectories...the photos are only showed |
| 14:38.53 | elg | in |
| 14:38.53 | elg | the order according to the time they were originally placed on the memory |
| 14:38.54 | elg | card." |
| 14:38.56 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 14:39.06 | elg | which i assume means filesystem timestamp |
| 15:32.50 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
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| 15:56.06 | high_roller | tensai: I worked at Caldera |
| 15:56.14 | high_roller | right before they changed the name to SCO |
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| 16:32.01 | *** join/#utah Munch1337 (n=Munch133@64.216.194.221) |
| 16:32.07 | Munch1337 | VER |
| 16:34.05 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@97-117-62-74.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 16:34.14 | sjansen | http://www.kill-ie.com/ <--- That is just so sad. |
| 16:34.15 | brac | [IE Killer :: Get rid of those pesky IE windows for good] |
| 16:35.11 | *** part/#utah Munch1337 (n=Munch133@64.216.194.221) |
| 16:44.57 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I've had that problem too |
| 16:45.37 | sjansen | http://web.archive.org/web/20050101114254/buscaluz.org/blog/2004/01/13/000008.html <-- fozzmoo That was written within a 3 month window of when I read Atlas Shrugged. |
| 17:01.49 | levi | Oh my, the PLUG currency discussion continues to make me laugh. |
| 17:01.59 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@slcl007.digis.net) |
| 17:02.36 | high_roller | any currency discussion makes me laugh |
| 17:08.25 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75.148.99.197) |
| 17:13.58 | levi | smashes head against desk. |
| 17:15.33 | elg | sells levi's desk for gold |
| 17:16.15 | elg | i came up with a new currency last night: baby teeth |
| 17:16.32 | elg | the tooth fairy's plans are laid bare |
| 17:19.01 | levi | Those grow on babies, though, like the leaves grow on trees. Well, not quite like that, but... |
| 17:19.19 | levi | I'm smashing my head on my desk for a reason completely unrelated to currency, though. |
| 17:19.46 | levi | It's because of extreme incompetence on the part of a certain chip manufacturer we're working with. |
| 17:21.39 | elg | are they wasting gold in their chips? |
| 17:22.20 | levi | We just bought a crapload of development boards with the chip on them, and I've been working on porting their drivers to a new CPU & OS, and I discovered that an essential feature doesn't work. It has a trivial test case, too. |
| 17:22.41 | elg | awesome |
| 17:22.44 | elg | can you get your gold back? |
| 17:23.44 | levi | And apparently some engineer of theirs *knew* it was horribly broken, because they rerouted two paths into one to work around a known-broken piece of hardware. This, of course, creates a nasty race condition if you try to use both of those paths at the same time. |
| 17:24.23 | levi | The amount of FAIL they've displayed is monumental. |
| 17:24.58 | fozzmoo | My wife got into a car accident this morning. |
| 17:25.18 | fozzmoo | She's okay. |
| 17:25.19 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@office.bluehost.com) |
| 17:25.23 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 17:25.25 | fozzmoo | The van, on the other hand, isn't. |
| 17:25.33 | levi | Uh oh. Glad she's okay. Sorry to hear about the van. |
| 17:25.42 | Jayce^ | ~lart novell for no public wifi anymore |
| 17:25.42 | ibot | cuts off novell's head with a halberd that could have been a little bit sharper for no public wifi anymore |
| 17:25.54 | levi | I kind of wish my van would get totaled, so long as no one got hurt. |
| 17:26.04 | Jayce^ | guesses he just missed some scary story from fozzmoo |
| 17:26.10 | fozzmoo | My wife got into a car accident this morning. |
| 17:26.28 | Jayce^ | d'oh |
| 17:26.36 | Nafai | fozzmoo: She okay? |
| 17:26.44 | fozzmoo | Some idiot (from Vernal, no less) turned right into the inside lane on Bangerter, right in front of my wife. |
| 17:26.49 | fozzmoo | She's okay. |
| 17:26.51 | Jayce^ | on the one hand, new cars are cheap... on the other, insurance won't give you crap because of it |
| 17:27.14 | elg | durned vernalites |
| 17:27.44 | elg | -chat on the |
| 17:27.46 | brac | on the internet |
| 17:27.50 | elg | -chat on the |
| 17:27.51 | brac | on the hatred of taxes thing |
| 17:27.55 | elg | -chat the one |
| 17:27.56 | brac | the one I just wrote a Perl one liner only to have some left, did you export the mount? |
| 17:31.16 | elg | -chat i now |
| 17:31.17 | brac | i now have a plethora? |
| 17:34.17 | fozzmoo | heh |
| 17:35.51 | levi | -chat i can has |
| 17:35.52 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 17:36.01 | levi | -chat i can |
| 17:36.02 | brac | i can handle anything |
| 17:46.30 | sjansen | levi: Could I borrow your desk? I'd like to smash my head on it to express how I feel about IE. |
| 17:48.18 | Supaplex | hands sjansen a stick of TNT for said abomination |
| 17:49.49 | goozbach | -chat can haz |
| 17:49.49 | brac | can haz |
| 17:50.57 | jshipley | I hate using IE, even just for downloading firefox and running updates |
| 17:54.53 | goozbach | jshipley: you need wget.exe on a usb drive |
| 17:55.03 | levi | I don't like IE, but it's not nearly as frustrating as the chip issue I'm having. |
| 17:55.26 | jshipley | goozbach: If I were going to go that route I'd probably just use portable apps with firefox |
| 17:55.31 | jshipley | not that it's a bad idea |
| 17:55.33 | levi | Using two essential features of the chip together makes it COMPLETELY STOP WORKING. |
| 17:55.48 | jshipley | I don't have the url for the current firefox exe memorized though |
| 17:55.56 | fozzmoo | www.getfirefox.com |
| 17:57.17 | jshipley | right, and I can go there with a browser and find the firefox installer... but wget would just download that webpage... I suppose I could read through the source and find the installer url though |
| 17:57.40 | jshipley | or I could just keep a firefox installer on a disk somewhere so I don't have to download it when I do a clean windows install |
| 18:02.28 | unum | give up and go mobile !!! |
| 18:07.41 | elg | -go away |
| 18:07.45 | elg | -chat go away |
| 18:07.45 | brac | go away |
| 18:07.50 | elg | -chat go forth |
| 18:07.50 | brac | go forth |
| 18:07.56 | elg | go forth and multiply |
| 18:08.03 | elg | -chat go foth |
| 18:08.03 | brac | go foth |
| 18:08.07 | elg | -chat go forth |
| 18:08.07 | brac | go forth and multiply |
| 18:10.50 | jshipley | -chat give up |
| 18:10.50 | brac | give up now!) |
| 18:10.53 | jshipley | -chat give up |
| 18:10.53 | brac | give up now!) |
| 18:10.54 | jshipley | -chat give up |
| 18:10.55 | brac | give up now!) |
| 18:11.04 | jshipley | -chat or I could just |
| 18:11.04 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 18:11.14 | jshipley | brac: help chat |
| 18:11.14 | brac | markov plugin: listens to chat to build a markov chain, with which it can (perhaps) attempt to (inanely) contribute to 'discussion'. Sort of.. Will get a *lot* better after listening to a lot of chat. usage: 'markov' to attempt to say something relevant to the last line of chat, if it can. other options to markov: 'ignore' => ignore a hostmask (accept no input), 'status' => show current status, 'probability' => set the % chance of rbot responding to input, |
| 18:11.14 | brac | 'chat' => try and say something intelligent, 'chat about <foo> <bar>' => riff on a word pair (if possible) |
| 18:11.41 | jshipley | -chat or I |
| 18:11.42 | brac | or I could understand the love for Rand and Objectivism in LDS culture. |
| 18:14.50 | elg | -chat i should |
| 18:14.50 | brac | i should rethink my position. my gripe has been useful in the sip category, apparently just for that to me ;) |
| 18:19.46 | eggyknap | -chat I'm tired |
| 18:19.47 | brac | I'm tired |
| 18:19.50 | eggyknap | -chat I'm tired of |
| 18:19.51 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 18:19.55 | eggyknap | Oh well. |
| 18:22.46 | sjansen | levi: Perhaps it is time to suggest to your legal department that they add a "Get out of chip hell free" clause to all future purchase agreements. |
| 18:33.28 | jshipley | -chat time to |
| 18:33.29 | brac | time to fall off the alarm. |
| 18:46.07 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
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| 19:37.42 | levi | The PLUG list has devloved into the different Libertarian economic schools duking it out. Chicago vs. Austrian. |
| 19:38.17 | levi | The Austrians are total fruitcakes. At least some real people believe in the Chicago school, even if they're a bit on the nutty side too. |
| 19:39.29 | fozzmoo | levi: I'm learning a lot from it all. :) |
| 19:39.41 | fozzmoo | Not really what I've come to expect from the PLUG list, but it's still very interesting. |
| 19:42.54 | elg | i'm learning primarly how much I've forgotten since I took econ 110 |
| 19:43.18 | unum | though the austrian guy seems to have atleast read a text book |
| 19:44.29 | unum | or maybe I miked up my posters |
| 19:45.09 | high_roller | doesn't plug have an unleashed or off-topic list? |
| 19:45.53 | Tene | Yes. That's the plug list. |
| 19:45.59 | Tene | They don't have an *ON*-topic list. |
| 19:47.53 | unum | notice how everyone is ignoring the wiki post :) |
| 19:51.15 | harleypig | argh ... couldn't figure out why 'alert( $variable )' wasn't working in my perl script ... |
| 19:52.14 | Tene | heh |
| 20:06.13 | elg | the wiki post doesn't look ignored to me |
| 20:08.18 | levi | fozzmoo: The thing about Austrian economics is that it all *sounds* very reasonable, and indeed it is, since Austrian economics is mostly philosophy about money. It just doesn't necessarily describe the real world. |
| 20:08.38 | fozzmoo | Sounds like our discussion about the gold standard last night. |
| 20:10.02 | fozzmoo | All this time, I thought "Fiat Money" was cash saved for a crappy European sportscar. |
| 20:10.18 | levi | Online, the Austrian school gets a lot of play because they've got a good website and there are a lot of Libertarians with strong online presence, and Libertarian philosophy and Austrian school philosophy are pretty well-aligned. But they're not really very well-represented among actual economists. |
| 20:12.22 | levi | The Chicago school dominates the BYU economic department, and has had people in important government positions. It's somewhat more reality-based than the Austrian school, but I think that actually makes it less attractive to Libertarians, who prefer to live entirely in their philisophical dreamworld where things actually work they way they say they do. |
| 20:14.12 | levi | Milton Friedman is a big Chicago school man. |
| 20:18.19 | levi | Friedman and Greenspan are both monetarists, though. |
| 20:19.03 | levi | Friedman is the one who proposed the idea that money supply should be calculated by algorithm, actually. I can't remember who brought that up on the list. |
| 20:21.44 | levi | Greenspan is/was also an inner-circle Objectivist, and a fan of the gold standard. |
| 20:22.35 | levi | Kind of crazy that he ended up running the Fed, eh? |
| 20:23.06 | levi | Clearly the Fed is out to swindle us, with a man like Greenspan at the helm for so long! |
| 20:27.24 | fozzmoo | Doesn't matter what your economic ideals are, as head of the Fed, you have to obey the orders of the illuminati. |
| 20:27.38 | levi | I guess. |
| 20:28.21 | levi | But if the illuminati are running everything, there's really no point to the whole political debate in the first place. :) |
| 20:29.58 | fozzmoo | Well, yeah. |
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| 21:00.25 | elg | -chat my dog |
| 21:00.25 | brac | my dog |
| 21:00.31 | elg | my dog ate your cat |
| 21:00.50 | eightyeight | 42 messages on plug?! since midnight last night?! good gravy. someone needs to kill that thread |
| 21:01.04 | levi | No kidding. |
| 21:01.29 | elg | easy to do, really |
| 21:01.41 | elg | just have the list admin unset reply-to |
| 21:01.47 | levi | Hah. |
| 21:01.57 | levi | Give them a bigger fish to fry. |
| 21:03.20 | Nafai | Sounds like it is a good thing I'm not subscribed to the PLUG list :) |
| 21:03.39 | levi | I find it a great source of amusement. |
| 21:04.20 | levi | Sometimes I get in on the big arguments. I decided to set this one out, though, because all the Libertarians gang up on me. |
| 21:04.31 | levi | s/set/sit/ |
| 21:05.20 | levi | This thread is still going on because they found something to disagree about amongst themselves, which is why it's so funny. |
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| 21:16.56 | tristanbob_ | http://www.jacksonpollock.org/ |
| 21:17.00 | tristanbob_ | fun fun fun |
| 21:20.52 | sjansen | I've pretty much abandoned any hope of having a productive discussion with the libertarians I know. |
| 21:21.58 | fozzmoo | Yeah- it's hard for a libertarian to go along with socialism. ;-) |
| 21:22.08 | levi | I kind of admire their neat, polished little framework for their thinking. Within it, they can't be shown to be wrong. |
| 21:22.31 | tristanbob_ | link! link! |
| 21:22.57 | levi | And if you don't agree with the premises they start from, then what is there to discuss? They hold them self-evident, so if you disagree, what is there to say? |
| 21:24.06 | sjansen | Or in other words, it's a waste of time to debate with anyone willing to reject reality that doesn't match theory. |
| 21:24.56 | Sargun | -rlart |
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| 21:25.06 | Sargun | Hm, I shredded a Racoon's head last night,. |
| 21:25.08 | unum | sjansen: I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who think internal docs should be internal |
| 21:25.37 | unum | we had a manager that would just go off on his own and start using third party stuff |
| 21:25.54 | unum | I can't blame him completely, because IT failed to get it set up when he asked for it |
| 21:25.57 | unum | but it drove me nuts |
| 21:26.40 | levi | Krugman on the gold standard: The Gold Standard is an Economic myth whose only benefit is it sounds good |
| 21:27.02 | tristanbob_ | http://plug.org/pipermail/plug/ |
| 21:27.03 | brac | [The PLUG Archives] |
| 21:27.10 | levi | Of course, he's an evil liberal, so you probably shouldn't listen to him. ;) |
| 21:28.00 | high_roller | I think we should go with a dual metal standard |
| 21:28.19 | levi | Sweedish Death Metal and Heavy Metal? |
| 21:28.27 | high_roller | yes |
| 21:28.31 | high_roller | to avoid a monopoly |
| 21:28.34 | levi | Awesome. |
| 21:28.45 | levi | Rock on, dudue. |
| 21:28.49 | high_roller | no emo metal though |
| 21:28.49 | levi | Er, dude. |
| 21:30.03 | Sargun | 200 seconds left. |
| 21:30.10 | unum | I have a libertarian friend I can discuss politics with, but doesn't appeal to the holy founding fathers in his arguments |
| 21:31.34 | levi | I find the appeal to the founding fathers to be more of an annoyance than anything. It's their theoretical foundations for private property rights and the implications that get me. |
| 21:32.21 | unum | ya |
| 21:33.28 | unum | http://change.gov/open_government/yourseatatthetable |
| 21:33.44 | unum | it shows meetings that the new administration is having with lobbyists |
| 21:34.04 | levi | Interesting. |
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| 21:38.15 | unum | who thinks we still need "the football" |
| 21:38.52 | Reilithion | unum: I get the feeling you're not talking about the sport. Am I missing out on some reference? |
| 21:40.36 | unum | it's a briefcase that opperates as a mobile nuclear command center |
| 21:40.46 | unum | it is always near the president |
| 21:40.59 | unum | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_football |
| 21:41.03 | unum | if you want more details |
| 21:42.40 | Reilithion | oh |
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| 22:20.17 | unum | for those other schneier readers in here: how the crap do you have "four hoteles that [you've] stayed in recently" blow up? |
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| 22:20.35 | jordo1 | list |
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| 22:21.15 | jshipley | unum: the simplest answer could just be that he's blowing them up as he leaves :) |
| 22:21.48 | unum | jshipley: good point. though it looks like he's been setting the bomb and then going to his room |
| 22:24.34 | unum | maybe I am reading it wrong. they were blown up afterwards |
| 22:24.44 | unum | but he worries a lot about being in them at the time |
| 22:25.13 | jshipley | what's the worst that could happen? He could be maimed/disfigured/killed? :) |
| 22:26.10 | unum | some people worry about the littlist things |
| 22:34.22 | jlp_work_ | Nawnitp. |
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| 22:42.31 | herlo | sjansen: ping |
| 22:42.48 | sjansen | herlo: pong |
| 22:43.15 | herlo | sjansen: hey, so I have had a few requests to record and/or stream PLUG this coming week |
| 22:43.37 | herlo | wanted to know how opposed to having a wired lapel mic you might be |
| 22:44.47 | Tene | What's he talking on? |
| 22:45.35 | herlo | SELinux |
| 22:45.41 | herlo | iirc |
| 22:45.51 | Tene | didn't he already do a presentation on selinux? |
| 22:46.07 | sjansen | herlo: no problem |
| 22:46.09 | herlo | SLLUG |
| 22:46.20 | herlo | sjansen: k, I'll meet you there a few minutes before... |
| 22:46.42 | sjansen | Tene: I presented to sllug. Now I'm going to present to plug. |
| 22:46.50 | Tene | ah |
| 22:48.25 | Tene | is there a presentation scheduled for the following month? |
| 22:49.41 | herlo | where? PLUG? |
| 22:49.50 | Tene | yeah |
| 22:49.52 | herlo | or is sjansen doing another one |
| 22:50.01 | herlo | PLUG will do another one in January I'm sure |
| 22:50.10 | Tene | Is there something already planned for it? |
| 22:50.14 | Tene | Is what I was asking. |
| 22:56.21 | herlo | dunno, rsimpkins ping |
| 22:56.28 | herlo | Tene: ask Reilithion |
| 22:56.31 | herlo | I mean rsimpkins |
| 22:56.41 | Tene | rsimpkins: what's the plug meeting for january? |
| 22:57.01 | Reilithion | What are we asking me? |
| 22:59.36 | Tene | What's the plug meeting for january? |
| 23:00.18 | Reilithion | ... I'm flattered that I got referred to for this information. But why would I know? |
| 23:00.40 | Tene | Because your name starts with 'r', just like 'rsimpkins', so herlo tab-completed your name instead of his. |
| 23:00.44 | sjansen | Because your nick starts with r. |
| 23:00.45 | Reilithion | lol |
| 23:00.52 | herlo | lol, sorry |
| 23:00.57 | Reilithion | Oh. There, I see the line after it now. |
| 23:00.59 | sjansen | You're part of the r conspiracy. |
| 23:01.04 | Reilithion | needs to read more lines. |
| 23:01.38 | herlo | apologizes profusely for bringing Reilithion into sjansen's lab of conspiracy theories |
| 23:03.17 | Reilithion | There's a whole lab of them? |
| 23:06.56 | herlo | sjansen: here's a new tip o' the day: strace -p 7318 -ff -f -o test |
| 23:07.05 | herlo | add that to the gurus channel :) |
| 23:09.39 | Nafai | herlo: Fancy |
| 23:11.58 | harleypig | is that a fork bomb or a infinite loop ... I can't tell from the strace docs. |
| 23:13.51 | herlo | harleypig: neither |
| 23:14.02 | harleypig | hmm ...then I'm misunderstanding the docs |
| 23:14.13 | herlo | harleypig: it provides an output file for all child process given a ppid |
| 23:15.05 | harleypig | That's what I get for skimming instead of reading. |
| 23:15.52 | Reilithion | lol |
| 23:15.54 | tristanbob_ | I just installed a couple dozen Cisco 3560s, and they all have different orientations of the 3 prong power connector |
| 23:16.11 | tristanbob_ | some have the single-prong up, and some have it down |
| 23:16.21 | tristanbob_ | shouldn't that be standardized? |
| 23:16.30 | Reilithion | From the man page: Where traditional or native usage differs from ANSI or POSIX, the latter forms are preferred. In some cases, strace output has proven to be more readable than the source. |
| 23:16.42 | harleypig | tristanbob_: some of them are upside down. |
| 23:17.03 | Sargun | tristanbob_, what kind of company do you think Cisco is? |
| 23:17.25 | Sargun | Some kind of high-end equipment manufacturer? |
| 23:17.39 | herlo | harleypig: I was asked that question on a pre-screening email |
| 23:18.06 | harleypig | I would've failed miserably. |
| 23:18.19 | tristanbob_ | Sargun, I was thinking they had their act together |
| 23:19.09 | Sargun | tristanbob_, You obviously haven't worked with Cisco long enough |
| 23:19.20 | herlo | harleypig: you can use man pages :) |
| 23:19.55 | Sargun | herlo, strace pid 7318, and output to file test, following forks. It appends the PID/LWP by $ORIGINALNAME.$PID |
| 23:19.59 | Sargun | I did that from memory |
| 23:20.05 | Sargun | Am I right? |
| 23:20.27 | Sargun | using the PTRACE syscall. |
| 23:22.21 | harleypig | herlo: true ... that *is* a diminishing skillset |
| 23:22.56 | herlo | harleypig: I would beat that into the heads of all my students. |
| 23:22.56 | harleypig | herlo: y'know ... I still got this funky little flash drive sitting on my desk :/ |
| 23:23.00 | herlo | What does the man page say? |
| 23:23.13 | harleypig | harleypig@sweetums:~$ man woman |
| 23:23.13 | harleypig | No manual entry for woman |
| 23:23.24 | harleypig | That's what the man page says |
| 23:24.11 | Reilithion | You called your system sweetums? Nice. |
| 23:27.07 | herlo | harleypig: get real, try this one |
| 23:27.15 | herlo | man man <-- now that's a man! |
| 23:27.31 | harleypig | Reilithion: most of my systems are named after muppets. |
| 23:27.39 | harleypig | my personal systems are usually sweetums. |
| 23:27.52 | harleypig | any windows boxes are named rizzo or one of his buddys |
| 23:28.06 | Reilithion | Plenty of muppets. Not like you'll easily run out of namespace. |
| 23:28.07 | harleypig | herlo: man mansex |
| 23:28.12 | Jayce^ | they're kinda like old yeller, when he has to put one down, he gets another and names it the same, hoping the kids don't know the difference |
| 23:28.27 | herlo | harleypig: that one doesn't exist either |
| 23:28.34 | herlo | nor do I want to know |
| 23:29.30 | harleypig | heh |
| 23:29.54 | harleypig | Jayce^: feh ... hoping *I* don't notice the difference |
| 23:30.21 | Reilithion | There aren't even any Ubuntu packages that mention mansex in their descriptions. |
| 23:30.31 | harleypig | o.O |
| 23:30.46 | harleypig | *Don't* go searching google for that! |
| 23:31.04 | Reilithion | Hey, even I draw a line somewhere. |
| 23:31.19 | herlo | where? |
| 23:31.27 | harleypig | I don't. I'll save that for when I get home and the kids have gone to bed. |
| 23:31.28 | harleypig | :> |
| 23:31.29 | Reilithion | Usually a great deal farther out than most people. |
| 23:31.42 | harleypig | Not me. |
| 23:31.48 | herlo | sure |
| 23:31.49 | harleypig | err ... not mine. |
| 23:31.51 | Reilithion | harleypig: admittedly |
| 23:31.53 | herlo | believes you |
| 23:31.59 | herlo | uh huh |
| 23:32.00 | herlo | yep |
| 23:32.01 | jshipley | man 'automatic door' |
| 23:32.05 | herlo | righty-o |
| 23:32.09 | harleypig | I don't think I've ever reached my limits. |
| 23:32.22 | jshipley | No manual entry for automatic door |
| 23:32.30 | herlo | goes back to doing something useful |
| 23:32.38 | jshipley | thinks that the automatic door isn't very safe in the event of a fire |
| 23:32.42 | Reilithion | goes back to reading man pages |
| 23:32.56 | harleypig | jshipley: sure ... just think of the comic effect |
| 23:33.07 | Reilithion | *thunk* ? |
| 23:33.23 | harleypig | more like *splat* ... depends on how long someone's been cooking. |
| 23:47.55 | harleypig | firefox --no-remote -P ToolbarDev |
| 23:47.57 | harleypig | damnit |
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| 23:57.44 | Jayce^ | ~mock harleypig's pain |
| 23:58.42 | harleypig | is crying on the inside |
| 23:59.07 | fozzmoo | Well, I'm frustrated. |
| 23:59.11 | Reilithion | I just read about Magnatunes. |
| 23:59.18 | fozzmoo | X is running like I'm running on an ISA video card. |
| 23:59.23 | fozzmoo | but Quake III runs great. |
| 23:59.39 | harleypig | walked away from my keyboard, and now a coworker is going to have some fun.. any suggestions? |
| 23:59.42 | Reilithion | And I am happy on the inside. |
| 23:59.54 | herlo | would that coworker be Jayce^ ?? |
| 23:59.59 | harleypig | :) |