| 00:00.36 | dataw0lf | but yea, I work for the Reno Gazette-Journal doing Ruby and Python development. It's a pretty choice job for a city that's devoid of most OSS leaning jobs. |
| 00:00.48 | sjansen | Reno is a great place to buy a home cheap right now. Louse place to have an existing mortgage. |
| 00:00.49 | dataw0lf | Most tech jobs here are with the gaming industry, which is heavily .NET. |
| 00:01.10 | sjansen | s/Louse/Lousy/ |
| 00:01.21 | dataw0lf | yup. |
| 00:01.28 | jackman | cool |
| 00:01.36 | jackman | what's it take to do that? |
| 00:01.39 | dataw0lf | Thus why the parental units are picking up houses in Tahoe and Reno like they're candy. |
| 00:02.15 | jackman | the programming, not the housing |
| 00:02.26 | dataw0lf | capital. |
| 00:02.36 | jackman | ah |
| 00:02.36 | jackman | :) |
| 00:04.27 | dataw0lf | err, jeez |
| 00:04.36 | dataw0lf | I reversed that statement |
| 00:04.39 | dataw0lf | <-- tired |
| 00:05.04 | dataw0lf | my position is as a senior developer, so, I dunno exactly what the requirements are |
| 00:05.13 | jackman | ah |
| 00:05.30 | dataw0lf | B.S. in C.S., 5+ years relevant job experience, portfolio of code in Python or Ruby |
| 00:05.38 | dataw0lf | something along those lines I imagine. |
| 00:05.58 | jackman | I am trying to figure out how to break in to programming in a reasonable time frame |
| 00:06.33 | jackman | i am new to salt lake and i've been out of the country for a few years |
| 00:06.45 | dataw0lf | you could always take a PHP position. You probably know more about programming than 90% of PHP developers anyway. |
| 00:06.48 | dataw0lf | *rimshot* |
| 00:06.52 | jackman | lol |
| 00:06.57 | dataw0lf | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:07.36 | sjansen | A) Work for a small company. You'll likely get more freedom, but less guidance if you want to get good. |
| 00:08.02 | jackman | Know of any good targets? |
| 00:08.15 | sjansen | B) Get lucky and find a position at a large company. You'll have less freedom, but you'll get more guidance to become a high quality developer. |
| 00:08.48 | sjansen | C) Get a Q&A position, get lucky and move to a development position. |
| 00:09.34 | sjansen | D) Get a degree, be sure to do an internship sophmore and junior year. Get a good job after graduating. |
| 00:09.42 | sjansen | The last is the slowest but most certain. |
| 00:09.56 | jackman | Q&A==CallCenter? |
| 00:10.01 | sjansen | (Assuming you get decent grades.) |
| 00:10.17 | sjansen | Q&A = quality assurance == testing code written by someone else. |
| 00:10.35 | jackman | ah |
| 00:10.43 | jackman | Q&A != QA |
| 00:11.05 | jackman | Q&A = Questions and Answers |
| 00:11.37 | sjansen | In general, Q&A people are looked down on. I think that's a real shame. Programmers benefit from a certain amount of humility, and see all the ways others have screwed up is a good way to learn how to do better yourself. |
| 00:11.48 | jackman | lol |
| 00:11.49 | jackman | indeed |
| 00:11.50 | sjansen | Ah, yeah. QA not Q&A. |
| 00:11.54 | jackman | I've never heard of it before |
| 00:12.02 | jackman | I didn't know such positions existed. |
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| 00:12.54 | sjansen | As for finding a job at a small company, you're doing it right. It's all about networking. Sadly, I don't have any suggestions. |
| 00:13.04 | dataw0lf | y'know my friend works in QA in Salt Lake, jackman, if you want me to hook you up. |
| 00:13.34 | jackman | QA=Debugging? |
| 00:13.37 | sjansen | Unless you're a real hot shot, the safest bet for getting a decent programming job is getting a degree. |
| 00:13.47 | sjansen | No, QA == find bugs for someone else to debug. |
| 00:14.19 | jackman | I would love a step in, but, unfortunately, I don't have much experience/proved-competence. |
| 00:14.38 | jackman | I'm not a real hot shot, then. |
| 00:14.44 | sjansen | It's boring thankless work the requires a meticulous attention to detail. |
| 00:15.04 | jackman | Do apprenticeships exist? |
| 00:15.06 | jackman | :P |
| 00:15.18 | sjansen | It usually isn't hard to break into QA because most companies don't realize just how much talent it takes to do well. |
| 00:15.34 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Preach on, brotha. Our QA team here is absolute garbage. |
| 00:15.54 | sjansen | jackman: Be sure to follow up on dataw0lf's offer. |
| 00:16.15 | jackman | dataw0lf: I want to be sure to follow up on your offer. |
| 00:16.58 | dataw0lf | jackman: you got a resume? either way, contact me at std3rr@gmail.com - I'm about to leave work. I'll direct you to the right person(s) |
| 00:17.04 | sjansen | Yes, apprenticeships do exist. But they're pretty rare. Often they're informal. |
| 00:18.34 | sjansen | In other words, sometimes an inexperienced person gets hired and put in the same team as an experienced person that has reached a point in their life where they want to pass on knowledge instead of just focusing on the task at hand. |
| 00:20.27 | sjansen | More often, a startup will hire an less experienced person, promise to teach them and then proceed to do a mediocre job. Too often the person offering the "internship" does not have an accurate understanding of their own skill level. They think programming is mostly mechanical so hiring inexperienced people and teach them seems cheaper. |
| 00:20.57 | jackman | email sent |
| 00:22.32 | jackman | anyway, a real apprenticeship sounds exciting, but it sounds like that the most promising career path is to get a degree. |
| 00:23.15 | jackman | the financial and temporal investment seems a little intimidating, though. |
| 00:24.52 | sjansen | They'll seem even more intimidating when you become intimately familiar with how much of getting a degree is jumping through hoops. |
| 00:25.26 | jackman | no doubts from me |
| 00:25.49 | jackman | i was working on a degree before I left the states, but didn't get very close. |
| 00:26.13 | jackman | i was going for my EE when I left. |
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| 00:28.33 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 00:28.54 | jackman | @ibot's da man |
| 00:30.07 | sjansen | Unless you plan on going into academia, the most important reasons to get a degree are 1) Playing the game. 2) Learning theory most self-taught programmers miss. 3) Networking. |
| 00:30.22 | jackman | cool |
| 00:30.24 | jackman | i can handle that. |
| 00:30.35 | jackman | I'll miss the money for a few years, tho. |
| 00:30.36 | jackman | :( |
| 00:30.37 | sjansen | If you do make the investment of getting a degree, don't stop at (1). |
| 00:30.45 | jackman | lol |
| 00:30.51 | jackman | indeed |
| 00:31.26 | sjansen | Be sure to pay attention to the theory classes. If you spend all your time thinking "I ever use this" you'll ending being unqualified to do anything other than grunt programming. |
| 00:31.32 | elg | sjansen: i didn't say it was hard for me |
| 00:31.34 | sjansen | s/I ever/I'll never/ |
| 00:31.52 | elg | it took me more than 13.3 seconds to figure out, which raised question as to whether it was too hard for the students |
| 00:32.11 | elg | but i was wondering if i was too dense to see the truly easy way (but there wasn't a truly easy way) |
| 00:33.06 | sjansen | jackman: Be sure to do _real_ internships. If you get a programming job and work while going class, they'll try to convince you that continuing to work for them over the summer is just a good as an internship. |
| 00:33.10 | sjansen | Don't listen. |
| 00:33.21 | jackman | lol |
| 00:33.24 | jackman | ya |
| 00:33.36 | jackman | I have an EE buddy that took an internship with NASA. |
| 00:33.38 | sjansen | Internships are only partly about getting "real world experience". They're more importantly about networking. |
| 00:34.12 | jackman | Now he works with the boeing installing and designing spy plane equipment. :) |
| 00:34.25 | sjansen | Neat. :-) |
| 00:35.09 | sjansen | Which brings me to (3). Don't spend all your time in the labs hunched over a computer. Don't avoid talking to your professors just because you're able to do all the homework without help. |
| 00:35.58 | sjansen | Participate in campus clubs. Get to know your classmates. Maybe you'll decide to start a company with a couple of them. Maybe they'll recommend you for a job. Who knows? |
| 00:37.00 | sjansen | As for professors, spending time with any professor that's doing research in an area you're interested in. He can help you break into that industry. |
| 00:37.08 | fozzmoo | The most fundamental purpose of getting a degree is to show a potential employer that you're capable of doing what you're told, jumping through hoops, and generally doing stupid stuff to get something done. |
| 00:37.28 | sjansen | Spend time with the professor that used to work for a company you want to work for, he might still have contacts to help get you in. |
| 00:37.50 | sjansen | Spend time with a professor you want to ask for a recommendation. Do something to impress him so he'll remember you. |
| 00:38.14 | elg | fozzmoo: that's sjansen's (1) |
| 00:38.49 | fozzmoo | elg: Well I thought I'd elaborate on that. Elaboration doesn't seem to be off limits in here. |
| 00:38.54 | fozzmoo | glares at sjansen |
| 00:39.12 | elg | it is by no means the canonical purpose just because it's the only purpose most people getting degrees have |
| 00:39.19 | sjansen | fozzmoo: That's what I mean by stopping at (1). If I could do things over, there's some things I'd do pretty differently. I did some networking, but I wish I'd done more. And I really screwed up when it came to getting to know my professors. |
| 00:39.27 | elg | the smart people have more purpose and get more out of it |
| 00:39.50 | fozzmoo | QA depends on the company. Very few companies do white-box QA. Most do black box. |
| 00:39.58 | elg | fwiw, i feel the same as sjansen, down to the bit about not getting as much out of it as I could have |
| 00:40.10 | sjansen | Don't get me wrong, I got lucky. I love my current job. But I'm not as prepared for the next step as I'd like to be because I didn't lay the ground work in school. |
| 00:40.22 | elg | otoh, i don't know that i could honestly say i'd do it differently. it would take serious effort to do it differently |
| 00:40.24 | fozzmoo | I sucked at school. |
| 00:40.36 | fozzmoo | But that's no surprise to anyone who knows me. |
| 00:40.57 | fozzmoo | loves sjansen's current job too. |
| 00:41.01 | elg | that networking stuff especially. i did a lot more than some (mostly by virtue of uug and plug, though to some degree by working as an RA) |
| 00:41.23 | elg | but i'm fairly introverted and really reaching out is hard |
| 00:41.46 | jackman | What did you fellows do during school to pay the bills? |
| 00:41.59 | elg | live on the cheap |
| 00:42.00 | sjansen | I worked for the college IT department. |
| 00:42.02 | jackman | not that I don't appreciate the advice, but I gotta pay the bills, too. |
| 00:42.05 | elg | work part time |
| 00:42.19 | elg | full time + school is just silly, imho |
| 00:42.49 | elg | you can do part time work and school. you'll be busy but you can pull it off. if you can get scholarships even better |
| 00:42.50 | sjansen | Live cheap. Work, but not too much. The problem with working while studying is that work is usually more fun so grades suffer, networking suffers, etc. |
| 00:43.07 | elg | more fun and more demanding |
| 00:43.17 | elg | your teacher just gives you a bad grade. your boss might fire you |
| 00:44.13 | elg | most people with Real Jobs would be amazed at what they could do without (live on the cheap). most wouldn't want to do without. some did without (in school) and never want to go back |
| 00:44.29 | sjansen | If you can't start with scholarships, talk to someone in the financial aid department about what you can do to get scholarships after your first year. A lot of people screw up at the beginning, leaving stuff for you to grab after spending a year demonstrating that you're more deserving. |
| 00:44.34 | elg | if you can resign yourself to living on the cheap, it's really not that hard though |
| 00:44.58 | elg | goes back to his book |
| 00:45.17 | elg | speaking of .. books are cheaper than cable ;-) |
| 00:46.08 | jackman | I feel like I just stepped into a pit... |
| 00:46.12 | jackman | I'm getting married in Feb. |
| 00:46.21 | jackman | And I've gotta get back into school. :( |
| 00:46.22 | elg | congrats |
| 00:46.28 | jackman | thanks. :) |
| 00:46.36 | jackman | now i just gotta convince her to live on the cheap. |
| 00:46.43 | sjansen | elg survived being married and getting a PhD (somehow) |
| 00:46.57 | elg | did she fall for you because of your lamborghini? |
| 00:47.01 | jackman | elg: do you teach? |
| 00:47.12 | jackman | something like that. :) |
| 00:47.18 | elg | sjansen is ahead of himself. I'm not quite done yet. May hopefully |
| 00:47.32 | elg | i have tought a class or two and TA'd countless classes |
| 00:47.40 | sjansen | jackman: Start school now! Don't let her get used to having any disposable money. It's must easier to to stay cheap than become cheap. |
| 00:47.45 | jackman | I think I remember some chat back in the day about "When elg get's his phd..." |
| 00:48.02 | jackman | haha |
| 00:48.03 | jackman | no worries |
| 00:48.29 | jackman | she's looking at schools, too. |
| 00:48.52 | sjansen | I'm actually in that boat right now. I want to go back to school, but I've been earning so much for so long it's hard to give it up. |
| 00:49.11 | sjansen | Golden handcuffs really do exist. Beware of them. |
| 00:49.46 | fozzmoo | mmmm. Handcuffs. |
| 00:50.02 | RyanE | TMI |
| 00:50.59 | sjansen | Don't think of a degree as the only option, though. Plenty of good IT jobs don't require a degree. |
| 00:51.07 | jackman | ehhh... |
| 00:51.11 | jackman | I don't know about that. |
| 00:51.13 | elg | ~rob sjansen |
| 00:51.13 | ibot | ACTION strips sjansen of his nick, title and all rights & privileges and gives them to someone more worthy |
| 00:51.22 | elg | jackman: well it does depend on your definition of "good" |
| 00:51.25 | sjansen | My current job is fun, pays well, and doesn't require a degree. |
| 00:51.28 | elg | plenty of jobs that plenty of people call good don't |
| 00:51.39 | elg | but you might not be satisfired with most of them |
| 00:51.41 | jackman | I work as a computer supervisor. |
| 00:51.43 | elg | or you might |
| 00:51.45 | jackman | did I already tell you this? |
| 00:51.54 | elg | that's part of the decision, your personal inclinitation |
| 00:52.05 | elg | and your pesronal speling capabililityilyity |
| 00:52.09 | jackman | I like my current job, but I would like a little more bread. |
| 00:53.01 | sjansen | Depending on what you want, getting your foot in the door, learning stuff on your own, and looking for new opportunities may be just as effective and faster. Also harder. |
| 00:53.24 | jackman | I think I like the schooling option |
| 00:53.35 | jackman | It seems the most feasible at this point |
| 00:53.48 | jackman | I gotta hang out more often on the freenode, tho. :) |
| 00:54.18 | elg | there's the sure road to academic success, :-) |
| 00:54.42 | jackman | i'm convinced |
| 00:54.45 | jsmith | or something... |
| 00:54.58 | jsmith | Don't let your education get in the way of your schooling :-) |
| 00:55.08 | sjansen | Stay away from the PhD though. That's just the siren song, guaranteed to shipwreck you. ;-) |
| 00:57.54 | jackman | just out of curiousity, are your companies looking for any low-level tech types like myself? |
| 00:58.28 | *** part/#utah Nafai (n=Nafai@travishartwell.net) |
| 01:00.11 | sjansen | There's another good reason to go to school. Ride out the current economic conditions. ;-) |
| 01:00.36 | fozzmoo | Or rather, to get your PhD. as it's looking like Barack is going to be our next president. |
| 01:00.50 | fozzmoo | Stay in school as long as you possibly can! |
| 01:01.14 | jackman | socialist=free_school, no? |
| 01:01.38 | fozzmoo | That too. |
| 01:01.58 | fozzmoo | I actually applaud Obama for his positions on education... just not his means for paying for it. |
| 01:03.04 | fozzmoo | jackman: Wait a minute... are you saying he's BLACK?! |
| 01:06.36 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Do I understand correctly that you came by the GL office yesterday for lunch, but didn't drop in to say hello? |
| 01:07.18 | fozzmoo | No, I met Adam at McD on 500 S. |
| 01:07.22 | fozzmoo | But I'll come by tomorrow. |
| 01:07.31 | fozzmoo | And I'll say "Hello my socialist friend" to you. :) |
| 01:09.15 | sjansen | Good. I was going to have to get mad at you for hating me. |
| 01:11.49 | sjansen | Have you mentioned to him that you helped write the class? |
| 01:12.08 | fozzmoo | I would have come up today... but my wife and I went to the credit union to see about buying a McMansion in foreclosure. |
| 01:12.35 | fozzmoo | I told him I wrote tsmenu. He said David said, "Well, we've rewritten almost all of it." |
| 01:14.44 | sjansen | I don't think we have, actually. We've made changes. And we plan on rewriting it. But I think the framework is still yours. |
| 01:15.12 | fozzmoo | I was impressed with how they did the RHCE exam... |
| 01:15.24 | fozzmoo | with the daemon running on the workstations |
| 01:15.27 | sjansen | they == Red Hat? |
| 01:15.36 | fozzmoo | I presume it was RH |
| 01:16.15 | sjansen | Yes, the RHCE exam has a clean, effective design. |
| 01:16.45 | jsmith | is curious... how does that work? |
| 01:16.51 | sjansen | Part of the reason you were brought in was so that we couldn't be accused of stealing it. I think what you created is also pretty effective. Better for teaching. |
| 01:16.59 | sjansen | jsmith: Sorry, NDA. |
| 01:17.06 | jsmith | Fair enough |
| 01:17.10 | jsmith | had to ask |
| 01:17.59 | sjansen | Most I feel comfortable saying is: Very real world. Not brittle magic looking for only RH approved solutions. |
| 01:21.34 | fozzmoo | jsmith: I SUCK! |
| 01:22.03 | sjansen | huh? |
| 01:22.20 | jsmith | fozzmoo: Huh? |
| 01:22.46 | fozzmoo | jsmith: I didn't have time to work on Fedora docs for many days... and when I sat down, I had kinda forgotten everything. |
| 01:23.04 | jsmith | fozzmoo: No worries... we'll help you along :-) |
| 01:23.13 | fozzmoo | I wanted to update my local copies to make sure I had everything that maybe other people had contributed. |
| 01:23.24 | fozzmoo | But I'm a gitiot |
| 01:23.25 | sjansen | Is this asterisk related? |
| 01:23.37 | jsmith | sjansen: Naw... Fedora Docs team |
| 01:23.56 | jsmith | fozzmoo: I'll help you -- wanna go through it in #fedora-docs? Here? |
| 01:24.10 | sjansen | What stuff you guys working on? |
| 01:24.39 | jsmith | sjansen: Release notes, installation guide, and a bunch of other guides |
| 01:24.41 | fozzmoo | Fedora Documentation |
| 01:24.49 | fozzmoo | jsmith: I'm installing cabinet doors right now. |
| 01:25.01 | fozzmoo | But if you're goign to be on in 20 minutes, that'd rock. |
| 01:25.14 | sjansen | My hat's off to both of you. |
| 01:25.29 | jsmith | fozzmoo: I'll be here |
| 01:25.34 | jsmith | sjansen: No pun intended? |
| 01:25.35 | fozzmoo | k great |
| 01:25.43 | jsmith | chuckles |
| 01:27.34 | sjansen | ~punish jsmith |
| 01:27.34 | ibot | ACTION forces jsmith to install and use Windows |
| 01:27.52 | jsmith | Oh no you didn't! |
| 01:27.57 | jsmith | Yeah... you'd better run! |
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| 01:46.43 | fozzmoo | rolls his eyes |
| 01:49.04 | Sargun | o.O? |
| 01:49.15 | Sargun | is hulu broken for anyone else? |
| 01:58.19 | levi | Aw, I missed a good discussion on school and stuff. |
| 01:59.53 | levi | Sargun: Yeah, apparently www.hulu.com is not in DNS at the moment. |
| 02:01.50 | jsmith | levi: Yup, you did |
| 02:18.30 | levi | And I missed a chance to have fozzmoo call me a socialist. |
| 02:19.02 | fozzmoo | levi: I wouldn't do that. |
| 02:20.10 | levi | You called sjansen a socialist. Is he more of a socialist than me? |
| 02:20.52 | fozzmoo | levi: I don't know anything about your views pertaining to socialism. |
| 02:21.14 | fozzmoo | I suppose you'd like me to tell what I'd call you if I had to, right? |
| 02:21.48 | levi | I'm just joking around, really. But sure. :) |
| 02:22.01 | fozzmoo | I'd say, "Hello my psuedo-intellectual friend." |
| 02:22.03 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 02:22.43 | fozzmoo | can't wait for this election thing to be done with. |
| 02:23.15 | levi | Me too. |
| 02:23.55 | fozzmoo | I'm resigned to the notion that McCain only has about about 5% chance of winning... |
| 02:24.02 | fozzmoo | not that I want him to win. I just don't want Obama to win. |
| 02:25.12 | fozzmoo | The only thing worse than Obama in the White House is Biden as VP. We're gonna get both. |
| 02:25.30 | jsmith | fozzmoo: If only the governance would kick into gear after the election was over |
| 02:26.08 | fozzmoo | The dems had their chance to fulfill their promises after 2006. Anyone remember Pelosi's 100-days to-do list? |
| 02:26.24 | fozzmoo | It's not like they had a president font of vetos to contend with. |
| 02:26.31 | fozzmoo | s/font/fond/ |
| 02:27.40 | fozzmoo | The democratic congress did break a record for number of symbolic resolutions, tho. |
| 02:27.49 | fozzmoo | Glad we paid them for that. |
| 02:28.18 | fozzmoo | We now have a <insert-name-of-disease> awareness week for every disease known to man. |
| 02:30.29 | levi | "If you answered any of these questions, that means you're watching The Daily Show, so you're clearly not a Real American." |
| 02:31.24 | levi | So, what differentiates a pseudo-intellectual from a real intellectual? |
| 02:31.51 | levi | And is being a real intellectual good or bad? What about the pseudo-intellectuals? |
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| 02:37.29 | jackman | levi: sjansen was giving me the finer points of living on the cheap and being happy about it. :) |
| 02:37.58 | jackman | that included going to school. |
| 02:38.45 | levi | I want to go back to school and get the PhD, but as sjansen says, the golden handcuffs are strong, especially when you've got a wife and kids. |
| 02:39.01 | fozzmoo | Mmmmm. Handcuffs. |
| 02:39.06 | jackman | I think I missed the handcuffs thing. |
| 02:39.12 | jackman | Is he into bondage? |
| 02:39.32 | jackman | bondage with a gold fetish? |
| 02:39.44 | levi | I'm fairly sure that's not what he was referring to. |
| 02:40.44 | jackman | oh |
| 02:41.02 | levi | But I'm not sure you can trust me, since I'm a pseudo-intellectual. |
| 02:41.22 | jackman | What was he referring to from a pseudo-intellectual's POV? |
| 02:43.42 | levi | Well, I took 'golden handcuffs' to be a metaphor for the constraints that having a steady and plush income can make on your ability to do without it. |
| 02:44.48 | jackman | ah |
| 02:45.12 | jackman | I can't tell the difference between 'real' and 'psuedo' intellectualism, unfortunately. |
| 02:47.43 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 02:47.43 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 02:49.53 | levi | jackman: You'll have to ask fozzmoo. |
| 02:49.57 | levi | Hi, elg! |
| 02:55.07 | Sargun | levi, yeah, Akamai screwed up. |
| 02:55.41 | elg | what'd they do? |
| 02:55.48 | elg | ojai |
| 02:56.01 | jackman | levi: I think I've been fully reassured that going back to school and getting my BS is the only worthwhile and practical solution to increasing my earning potential. |
| 02:56.43 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 02:56.59 | Sargun | http://www.hulu.com/watch/39832/terminator-the-sarah-connor-chronicles-the-tower-is-tall-but-the-fall-is-short#s-p1-so-i0 |
| 02:57.01 | Sargun | is borken |
| 02:57.22 | elg | that might be a bit superlative. you could always go the entrepeneurial route, marry a rich girl, join the mob |
| 02:57.47 | elg | but getting a college degree is definitely one of the more safe routes to decent pay |
| 02:58.01 | jackman | lol |
| 02:58.15 | jackman | I don't know anyone in the mob, anyway |
| 02:58.49 | jsmith | You mean you don't *know* that anyone you know is in the mob |
| 02:58.50 | Sargun | Save -- not fun. |
| 03:00.03 | elg | seriously though there are other avenues to wealth |
| 03:00.46 | elg | not that i have any personal experience in collecting massive wealth |
| 03:02.19 | elg | but i've done some consulting (based on skills that i gained in a manner more or less orthogonal to my college education) at a rate comparable to an entry-level post-college job |
| 03:02.46 | jackman | well... |
| 03:02.50 | jackman | I'll make it, I suppose. |
| 03:03.05 | jackman | I will make being poor an art form in the mean time. |
| 03:03.58 | Sargun | jackman, Don't worry, you're not unique. |
| 03:04.06 | Sargun | There are many poor people just like you. |
| 03:04.13 | jackman | how reassuring |
| 03:04.14 | jackman | :) |
| 03:04.35 | Sargun | I say you should assassinate someone... |
| 03:04.52 | jackman | how do you get money from that? |
| 03:05.01 | levi | jackman: I'm just about finished getting my degree, after a long hiatus from studies. |
| 03:05.05 | jackman | i bet the mob would pay off an assassinatin... |
| 03:05.20 | Sargun | jackman, I think people pay can pay you to assinate other people. |
| 03:05.27 | Sargun | or themselves depending on how odd they are. |
| 03:05.30 | levi | Really the path to wealth is having skill and a good network. |
| 03:05.43 | levi | But going to school is a good way to work on both. |
| 03:05.45 | jackman | ahh... |
| 03:05.51 | jackman | this is a good question for this moment. |
| 03:05.59 | jackman | I have been accepted to the U. |
| 03:06.11 | jackman | Is there another school that I should be considering? |
| 03:06.15 | levi | I got my lucky break from a guy I knew from school. |
| 03:06.28 | levi | If you want to stay in Utah, the U is a good choice. |
| 03:06.37 | levi | My wife graduated from the U and thinks highly of it. |
| 03:07.48 | jackman | It seems like it's is very reasonable in terms of cost, it has a good reputation, and my family has gone there. |
| 03:07.59 | jackman | I want to stay in SLC. |
| 03:08.08 | levi | The U's CS department also has a prominent role in the history of computing, though I gather that it's somewhat diminished from its heyday. |
| 03:08.27 | jackman | well, ever since valves went out of style... |
| 03:12.25 | levi | Well, this was back during the time when David Evans (of Evans and Sutherland (who was another CS professor at the U)) ran the department. |
| 03:13.19 | fozzmoo | I enjoyed CS at USU... |
| 03:13.32 | fozzmoo | I found it to be a nice balance between theory and application. |
| 03:13.43 | fozzmoo | I would have liked a little more theory... |
| 03:13.52 | fozzmoo | but it was still a lot more theory than, say, Weber State. |
| 03:13.55 | jsmith | enjoyed Computer Engineering at USU |
| 03:14.07 | jsmith | More hardware, less theory :-) |
| 03:14.21 | fozzmoo | My bro-in-law did CS at WSU and their "Computer Architecture" class was "this is a CPU. This is a hard drive." |
| 03:14.22 | levi | jsmith: You had to do all that circuit theory stuff, though. ;) |
| 03:14.55 | levi | fozzmoo: That's sad. The computer architecture class at UVU is better than that! |
| 03:14.58 | jsmith | levi: Yeah, but it really wasn't that bad... and besides, I took my last year of classes (CS classes, I might add!) from the U and transferred the credits back |
| 03:15.15 | jsmith | levi: that way, I got more CS classes than the typical computer engineer |
| 03:15.17 | levi | CS theory isn't that bad, either! In fact, it's awesome! |
| 03:16.09 | levi | Where else would you learn about the pumping lemma?! |
| 03:16.42 | fozzmoo | Only if you went to the Andean backcountry. |
| 03:16.51 | fozzmoo | Oh wait. Lemma. Not llama |
| 03:18.21 | Sargun | a very old man with enormous wings < What do you think of this title? |
| 03:23.12 | jackman | Is that a professional title? |
| 03:23.18 | Sargun | no |
| 03:23.30 | Sargun | for a short story I mean |
| 03:23.39 | jackman | oh. |
| 03:24.17 | jackman | I am not sure that's what your prof meant when he said you had to get published |
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| 03:28.09 | Sargun | 'a very old man with enormous wings' is a professional work. |
| 03:28.36 | jackman | well, you can call anything you do a professional work if you get paid for it. |
| 03:28.42 | Sargun | Why are russians so fun to make fun of? |
| 03:28.57 | Sargun | Russians, indians, and chinese. |
| 03:29.01 | jackman | for example, you could say i watch movies professionally. |
| 03:29.01 | jackman | :) |
| 03:29.06 | Sargun | But russians more than the others... |
| 03:29.07 | jackman | french, too |
| 03:29.12 | jackman | don't forget about them |
| 03:29.15 | Sargun | French aren't as fun. |
| 03:29.29 | jackman | I've never much laughed over a russian |
| 03:29.45 | jackman | except when examining their copy-cat iron curtain technology |
| 03:29.48 | jackman | :) |
| 03:29.52 | jackman | that was pretty funny |
| 03:30.37 | Sargun | I like the PC commercials way better than the Mac ones. |
| 03:30.49 | jackman | There are PC commercials? |
| 03:31.17 | Sargun | Yes |
| 03:31.20 | Sargun | "I'm a PC" |
| 03:31.23 | jackman | got a link? |
| 03:31.24 | Sargun | NO, I'm a PC |
| 03:31.39 | Sargun | http://www.geekologie.com/2008/09/microsofts_new_im_a_pc_commerc.php |
| 03:31.42 | brac | [Microsoft's New 'I'm A PC' Commercial - Geekologie] |
| 03:32.04 | levi | I didn't think the PC commercials were anything special. |
| 03:32.53 | Sargun | levi, I liked them better |
| 03:33.04 | Sargun | They made me feel all fuzzy inside (like a mold) |
| 03:33.17 | Sargun | whereas the Mac commercials made me feel sick and vicious |
| 03:33.27 | Sargun | I'd say Mac = McCain campaign (dirty, and attacking) |
| 03:33.37 | Sargun | wheres Obama campaign = PC |
| 03:33.40 | Sargun | the underdog |
| 03:34.30 | jackman | that wasn't bad |
| 03:36.25 | *** join/#utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |
| 03:38.10 | *** join/#utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |
| 03:38.17 | Supaplex | Zelut: greetings. |
| 03:40.23 | jackman | greetings! |
| 03:41.59 | levi | Cool, Slava Pestov is doing a Google Tech Talk on Factor. |
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| 03:52.38 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
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| 04:44.41 | Sargun | Does anyone know of any database APIs here you can subscribe to changes? |
| 05:03.56 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 05:08.25 | Supaplex | changes on what? |
| 05:10.44 | Sargun | hm. |
| 05:10.59 | Sargun | do you guys know of any databases which are like BDB, just more -- uhm, sane. |
| 05:22.13 | jackman | hey... |
| 05:22.18 | jackman | just out of curiousity |
| 05:22.29 | jackman | has anyone tried running macos on their pc? |
| 05:30.38 | Sargun | MAC OS X |
| 05:30.40 | Sargun | someone has |
| 05:30.41 | Sargun | for ser. |
| 05:38.20 | jackman | My brother gave me a copy. |
| 05:38.33 | jackman | I wouldn't mind trying it, but I'd like to dual boot it, of course. |
| 05:51.28 | levi | jackman: From what I understand, it only runs well on a narrow subset of PC hardware. |
| 05:51.48 | levi | jackman: There's a website that talks about how to install it on a PC, but I don't recall what it's called. I'm sure a search would turn it up. |
| 05:52.36 | jackman | cool |
| 05:52.38 | jackman | thank |
| 05:52.43 | jackman | s/thank/thanks |
| 05:58.06 | Sargun | Frozen pineapples taste surprisingly good. |
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| 11:31.47 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
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| 13:40.22 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
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| 13:51.54 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
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| 14:16.24 | goozbach | so they've discovered my squirrel marines now... http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=761 |
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| 14:44.10 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
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| 15:07.30 | fozzmoo | undertakingyou: Meow |
| 15:09.03 | Heartsbane | ? |
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| 15:18.51 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp25.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 15:18.51 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 15:19.16 | elg | me |
| 15:20.20 | goozbach | no, it's me |
| 15:20.23 | goozbach | ~da man |
| 15:20.31 | goozbach | ~daman |
| 15:20.59 | Heartsbane | ~goozbach-- |
| 15:21.25 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (n=Tadaka@c-67-177-61-219.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 15:21.54 | goozbach | ~karma goozbach |
| 15:21.54 | ibot | goozbach has neutral karma |
| 15:22.11 | goozbach | ~heartsbane++ |
| 15:25.13 | Heartsbane | ~karma Heartsbane |
| 15:25.14 | ibot | heartsbane has neutral karma |
| 15:28.19 | elg | what's the best way to rip a dvd (just as a dvd filesystem) on linux? |
| 15:29.37 | jsmith | rsync? |
| 15:29.39 | jsmith | ducks |
| 15:31.15 | elg | that's my first guess too |
| 15:31.22 | elg | hope there's no problem |
| 15:31.35 | elg | or I might have to shoot sjansen in the foot |
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| 15:59.37 | Tene | elg: readcd, iirc |
| 16:05.03 | goozbach | dd |
| 16:05.14 | goozbach | dd if=/dev/dvd of=/tmp/dvd.iso |
| 16:05.23 | goozbach | mount -o loop /tmp/dvd.iso /mnt |
| 16:10.59 | elg | rsync had read issues (and so did totem for that matter). is this likely a scratch or copy protection type of bad blocks? |
| 16:11.13 | elg | and do any of those deal with that (a la cdparanoia) |
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| 16:20.31 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
| 16:25.14 | fozzmoo | elg: ddrescue may help. |
| 16:35.42 | Tene | elg: try readcd |
| 16:39.56 | elg | too late, the moment has passed |
| 16:40.23 | elg | we failed but no big deal. we'll just check it out of the library next time we need it |
| 16:54.51 | Sargun_Screen | failure is an option |
| 16:59.37 | Sargun_Screen | ah, yeah. |
| 17:00.36 | levi | Man, I'm having a heck of a time keeping my family healthy. |
| 17:00.48 | levi | Now that I'm feeling better and my kids are feeling better, my wife is sick. |
| 17:00.55 | Sargun_Screen | levi: Flu? |
| 17:01.53 | levi | Not sure what it is. My wife probably has the flu, since she's been feverish. I think I just had a cold, though I've still got lingering phlegm. |
| 17:02.41 | Sargun_Screen | Ugh, I think Sprint is doing some sort of nasty filtering on port 80. |
| 17:07.09 | harleypig | Can't let that phlegm get on teh intertubes! |
| 17:23.10 | fozzmoo | levi: good luck. |
| 17:33.57 | harleypig | yay ... I'm idlerpging again |
| 17:37.09 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 17:37.23 | mrpull | harleypig: hah. my poor iderpg guy has been sub-idle for a long time |
| 17:37.29 | mrpull | is it still #idlerpg ? |
| 17:49.07 | *** join/#utah resplin (n=richard@66-182-78-73.static.sdyl005.digis.net) |
| 17:50.01 | harleypig | mrpull: yeah |
| 17:50.24 | mrpull | I started another troll in hopes of whooping you |
| 17:51.06 | mrpull | I see that I have a character with oldlebot but oldlebot seems to be missing? |
| 17:53.48 | eightyeight | http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/10/pop-tech-matt-m.html |
| 17:56.09 | unum | that was on /. two days ago |
| 17:56.13 | unum | get with the program |
| 18:00.21 | eightyeight | ~kick unum |
| 18:00.22 | ibot | ACTION kicks unum |
| 18:00.45 | eightyeight | so i'm just caching up with my feeds. so sue me |
| 18:01.44 | Sargun_Screen | Sues e |
| 18:03.43 | unum | hirers bois schiller |
| 18:05.04 | Sargun_Screen | 2 O |
| 18:19.08 | harleypig | eightyeight: you're cacheing your feeds? |
| 18:21.13 | eightyeight | no. caching. cacheing is different. :) |
| 18:21.16 | eightyeight | ~beat harleypig |
| 18:21.17 | ibot | ACTION relentlessly beats harleypig over the head with a Louisville Slugger |
| 18:21.35 | harleypig | hhe |
| 18:21.39 | harleypig | s/hhe/heh/ |
| 19:10.37 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@lib-uconnect-254.wireless.utah.edu) |
| 19:10.49 | findlay | ~say -chat ~say -chat |
| 19:10.50 | ibot | -chat ~say -chat |
| 19:10.56 | brac | ~say -chat about stuff more offtopic tan the normal ubuntu and Vista, and the ever-fun-to-draw internet cloud |
| 19:10.57 | ibot | -chat about stuff more offtopic tan the normal ubuntu and Vista, and the ever-fun-to-draw internet cloud |
| 19:10.58 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 19:22.37 | elg | `learn jsmith-teaching |
| 19:22.43 | elg | ~learn jsmith-teaching |
| 19:27.51 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
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| 20:04.58 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@dhcp175.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:05.05 | sjansen | waves to fozzmoo |
| 20:05.15 | sjansen | ~rlart |
| 20:05.16 | ibot | blames high_roller for all the evil in the world |
| 20:05.22 | fozzmoo | waves back at sjansen across the divide |
| 20:05.37 | *** part/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@dhcp175.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:24.06 | jsmith-teaching | fozzmoo: Political divide? |
| 20:26.22 | Tene | No, the divide left behind when he destroyed your house with his orbital laser. |
| 20:27.49 | fozzmoo | hee hee. |
| 20:29.16 | Tene | I bet you didn't know the Republicrats had an orbital laser, did you? |
| 20:32.50 | jsmith-teaching | for Janitor 2008! |
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| 22:00.47 | tristanbob_ | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27321165/ |
| 22:00.59 | tristanbob_ | Miss Louisiana Teen USA loses crown after pot bust |
| 22:03.08 | tristanbob_ | my bad, I thought it was the same girl as Ms. South Carolina |
| 22:03.25 | tristanbob_ | hence the pot => dumbness connection |
| 22:16.08 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@dhcp175.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 22:16.26 | sjansen | $2 = <value optimized out> |
| 22:16.34 | sjansen | ARGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 |
| 22:16.38 | sjansen | ~destroy something |
| 22:16.39 | ibot | no |
| 22:16.43 | sjansen | yes! |
| 22:16.51 | Bickr292 | It just breaksd the heart when beauty queens lose to Pot. |
| 22:17.18 | sjansen | ~self-destruct |
| 22:17.20 | sjansen | ~explode |
| 22:17.21 | ibot | BOOOM |
| 22:17.23 | sjansen | ~kaboom |
| 22:17.23 | ibot | Lets blow this popsicle stand, boys! Kaaboooom? Yes, Rico. Kaaboom |
| 22:17.55 | sjansen | ~explode-violently-spraying-shrapnel-in-every-direction |
| 22:18.06 | Bickr292 | is offended by all the xploding. |
| 22:18.20 | sjansen | ~travolta Bickr292 |
| 22:18.21 | ibot | ACTION replaces Bickr292 with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 22:18.39 | Bickr292 | sjansen: Now let's be honest, that just isn't very nice. |
| 22:20.08 | sjansen | You wanna see not very nice? I'll give you not very nice! |
| 22:20.10 | sjansen | ~punish Bickr292 |
| 22:20.11 | ibot | ACTION forces Bickr292 to install and use Windows |
| 22:21.16 | harleypig | Let's all take some MESCALINE!!! |
| 22:21.51 | jackman | It's the only way to fly. :) |
| 22:22.13 | sjansen | harleypig: Would that erase autotools from the universe? |
| 22:23.28 | harleypig | sjansen: no, but it'd make them more interesting to use. |
| 22:23.41 | harleypig | for both the developer *and* the end user. |
| 22:25.20 | sjansen | I'm going to have to insist that whatever solution we arrive at, it must involve the complete erasure of autotools from the universe. Past, present and future. There must be no trace! |
| 22:25.48 | harleypig | If there is no trace it will be recreated. |
| 22:27.41 | sjansen | All we have to do is make sure the CMake or something similar gets invented early enough. |
| 22:28.16 | sjansen | Well, that and perhaps send small meteors at a few key developers before they attempt to approach the keyboard while high. |
| 22:59.49 | tensai | ~echelon fodder |
| 22:59.49 | ibot | well, echelon fodder is Bush, Uranium, Dirty Bomb, Jihad, Allah Akbar, TNT, Rent a van, assassination , NSA, wiretaps, sleeper cell, suicide bomb, vest, Oklahoma City, Waco, revenge, anthrax, virgins, fuse, great celebration, July 4th, detcord, martyr, timer, backpack, subway. Ruby Ridge |
| 23:05.12 | Jayce^ | need to add "Catch in the Rye" to that list |
| 23:23.06 | elg | -chat |
| 23:23.07 | brac | I know :) |
| 23:23.42 | *** join/#utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |
| 23:27.17 | undertakingyou | fozzmoo: pong |
| 23:28.33 | harleypig | magic mushrooms |
| 23:33.27 | *** join/#utah Zelut (n=christer@ubuntu/member/zelut) |