| 00:09.55 | levi | What about it? |
| 00:22.12 | Tene | -chat levi said |
| 00:22.13 | brac | levi said that you couldn't even do 1-3, if you want to mess around with polycoms and custom ring tones for my website, so I can tell the world |
| 00:25.24 | Tene | -chat I said |
| 00:25.25 | brac | I said it once |
| 00:30.07 | levi | -chat Tene said |
| 00:30.08 | brac | Tene said that. I would have sent to me? thx! |
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| 01:52.37 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 01:52.38 | brac | i think you still need to know how get gaim to stop either |
| 01:55.39 | jsmith-away | -chat that was |
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| 01:55.39 | brac | that was too cheap for that. |
| 02:22.20 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 02:50.25 | jsmith-away | -chat wps is |
| 02:50.25 | brac | wps is |
| 02:50.33 | jsmith-away | Curses! Foiled again! |
| 03:05.40 | tensai | wps is a |
| 03:05.44 | tensai | -chat wps is |
| 03:05.45 | brac | wps is a bigger organ. :) |
| 03:05.59 | tensai | -chat jsmith-away is |
| 03:05.59 | brac | jsmith-away is away: Wandered away... |
| 03:06.29 | tensai | jsmith-away is nutty like a fox |
| 03:06.49 | jsmith-away | Ouch |
| 03:06.57 | jsmith | -chat tensai wants |
| 03:06.58 | brac | tensai wants you influences your ability to do in the context of the kernel line. |
| 03:07.09 | jsmith | 'nuff said |
| 03:07.18 | tensai | uh, sure |
| 03:07.39 | tensai | we should have brac generate talking points for the debates |
| 03:08.21 | tensai | jsmith: hey, you're smart. answer my question. |
| 03:08.41 | tensai | I'm writing a script using asterisk manager api to generate outbound calls |
| 03:08.58 | tensai | works great but my dialplan starts before the phone answers |
| 03:09.39 | tensai | I want it to not to do that |
| 03:13.08 | jsmith | You're not calling across an analog line, right? |
| 03:13.49 | jsmith | (no answer supervision on analog lines, my friend) |
| 03:13.58 | jsmith | tensai: Or am I guessing wrong? |
| 03:14.16 | tensai | this is not analog |
| 03:14.21 | tensai | it's between two asterisk boxes |
| 03:14.35 | tensai | right now I'm using an iax trunk because sip was problematic due to the firewall |
| 03:15.13 | tensai | ~strangle pots |
| 03:15.13 | ibot | ACTION strangles pots with a keyboard cord. |
| 03:16.09 | tensai | so in this exact instance it's server A -> IAX2 -> server B -> SIP -> polycom phone |
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| 03:16.12 | brac | i think the time |
| 03:16.32 | tensai | jsmith: my theory is that iax2 is "answering" the call and not passing the sip leg call status along |
| 03:17.18 | elg | ~rlart |
| 03:17.19 | ibot | whips mrpull-lt with a wet and grimy noodle just because |
| 03:17.28 | jsmith | tensai: Doesn't sound plausible to me... unless you've got a rogue Answer() statement in there. |
| 03:17.54 | tensai | jsmith: no idea on what the dialplan is doing. I'm connecting to the fonality system. |
| 03:18.04 | jsmith | There you go :-) |
| 03:18.22 | tensai | that's not the answer I want |
| 03:18.40 | jsmith | I don't know what else to tell you -- how am I supposed to know what magic incantation they perform on the call? |
| 03:19.01 | jsmith | Can you do an IAX2 debug to see if there's an IAX ANSWER message? |
| 03:19.23 | Sargun_Screen | Does anyone know where I can find a list of PoP IPs for several large NSPs? |
| 03:22.54 | elg | you have access to the machine but can't access the dialplan? |
| 03:23.00 | elg | how do they obfuscate the dialplan? |
| 03:25.47 | tensai | I have root access. some stuff is hidden in an AGI script, but mostly it's in extensions.conf (and its subsidiaries) |
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| 03:26.00 | tensai | Sargun_Screen: what fer? |
| 03:26.30 | tensai | jsmith: yeah I can do that. and after the call center closes at 10 I can do some debugging on the fonality box too. |
| 03:27.51 | tensai | elg: I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but the dialplan is just really complicated |
| 03:28.16 | elg | is there a way to trace a dialplan in asterisk? |
| 03:28.21 | elg | like sh -x |
| 03:29.25 | tensai | core set verbose 4 |
| 03:29.42 | tensai | show dialplan nxx@context |
| 03:31.31 | tensai | oh, wow. I see part of the problem, I bet. fonality is dumping it out our sip gateway and the call is coming back in. that's, um, not optimal. |
| 03:32.43 | Sargun_Screen | tensai I'm trying to monitor my overall connectivity to the internet. |
| 03:32.54 | jsmith | tensai: Ouch :-/ |
| 03:42.44 | elg | doesn't verbosity just report what's going on verbosely? i.e. it doesn't report every command issued or where (what line, context, whatever) it was issued? |
| 03:42.57 | elg | verbosity is helpful but not nearly as helpful as a true trace would be. |
| 03:46.44 | tensai | riddle me this, why are my sip phones in a context named "external"? |
| 03:48.23 | tensai | elg: my 1.4 box shows the context, line, and command. 1.2 apparently doesn't though (that's what the fonality is). |
| 03:49.03 | tensai | Executing [voicemail@internal:2] VoiceMailMain("SIP/family-083767a0", "family|s") in new stack |
| 03:49.34 | jsmith | tensai: It should if your verbosity level is 3 or higher. If not, check to see what they've done to logger.conf |
| 03:49.48 | jsmith | (specifically the line that begins "console=") |
| 03:50.20 | elg | LIB, so it does |
| 03:50.28 | tensai | jsmith: it does show the applications being executed, but not the context, extension or priority |
| 03:50.29 | elg | hasn't really done any debugging in 1.4 |
| 03:50.47 | tensai | such as, Executing Set("SIP/4.68.250.148-0823fdc0", "TIMEOUT(digit)=3") in new stack |
| 03:50.50 | jsmith | tensai: Ah, gotcha |
| 03:51.03 | tensai | still useful, but 1.4 is obviously an improvement |
| 03:51.10 | jsmith | tensai: You can always connect to AMI and look at the events as the roll on bye |
| 03:51.41 | Sargun | by. |
| 03:51.45 | jsmith | Wouldn't be hard to write a small program that watches the AMI events and only shows you what's happening for one particular call |
| 03:52.08 | jsmith | Sargun: It was a SIP joke... I should have said "as they roll on BYE" |
| 03:52.34 | tensai | I really dig AMI. but they might get all pissy if we change the config files. |
| 03:52.41 | Sargun | oh, bahaha. |
| 03:53.05 | jsmith | Sargun: Are you saying that if it were a PRI joke you would have been able to CONNECT the dots? |
| 03:53.13 | Sargun | stabs jsmith |
| 03:53.15 | elg | tensai: here's where you might employ quilt |
| 03:53.29 | jsmith | Sargun: I could always REFER you to a different SIP joke |
| 03:53.44 | elg | you can keep all your changes in a stack of patches, and before you call support you roll them back and move the patches directory and they're none the wiser. |
| 03:54.04 | elg | assuming they don't randomly log into your box and spy |
| 03:54.07 | jsmith | Unfortunately, you can't as easily patch all the security holes they've left in old versions of 1.2 |
| 03:54.09 | Sargun | BGP: Maybe you should talk to some of your other PEERs. |
| 03:55.07 | jsmith | tries to wrap his big "fit round data into a square schema" project so he can go to bed soon |
| 03:55.15 | jsmith | s/wrap/wrap up/ |
| 03:55.31 | elg | ~wrap jsmith |
| 03:55.32 | ibot | ACTION wraps jsmith in a fifty foot roll of duck tape |
| 03:55.34 | elg | yeah it's late there |
| 03:55.37 | jsmith | Some days I'd like to strangle some people who *think* they have a clue |
| 03:56.06 | jsmith | Todays wish is "beat schema designers over the head with a really heavy foreign key" |
| 03:56.07 | tensai | jsmith: progress! I dialed my extension rather than my DID and now it waits until I pick up. yay! |
| 03:56.18 | jsmith | tensai: w00t! |
| 03:56.32 | tensai | I was pretty sure I tried that before and it wasn't working |
| 03:56.48 | tensai | now to see how it works when dialing the PSTN |
| 03:56.57 | jsmith | checks the progess on his database, and it's 1300 records in, and no problems so far |
| 03:57.31 | tensai | foreign keys are so overrated. you can just write that in code. php code, preferably. |
| 03:58.33 | jsmith | tensai: Exactly... How'd you know this was PHP code I'm fighting? :-p |
| 03:59.10 | tensai | jsmith: painful, painful experience |
| 03:59.46 | jsmith | I think eventually I'll turn into djb... and realize that everybody else's stuff is junk, and write my own *everything* from scratch |
| 04:00.04 | jsmith | suddenly feels sick just thinking about becoming djb |
| 04:00.26 | elg | a good sign you're not yet becoming djb |
| 04:01.09 | jsmith | Isn't humility great?!? |
| 04:02.06 | tensai | is using git for this latest project |
| 04:02.19 | tensai | thanks to spr's handy "git in 5 minutes" tutorial |
| 04:02.33 | goozbach | wonders if djb ever had that thought in the beginning... |
| 04:04.40 | tensai | jsmith: preliminary tests indicate it's working for PSTN too. woot |
| 04:05.12 | Sargun | jsmith, Have you played with SS7? |
| 04:05.14 | jsmith | goozbach: Good question |
| 04:05.31 | jsmith | Sargun: Just a bit... not enough to be very knowledgeable, unfortunately |
| 04:05.43 | jsmith | Sargun: But I did some consulting for a company that used it a bunch... it's pretty cool |
| 04:05.47 | jsmith | Sargun: Why? |
| 04:07.19 | tensai | has two ss7 links, but admits to not knowing a whole lot about it |
| 04:08.14 | Sargun | neat. |
| 04:08.23 | Sargun | Just wondering if you had messed with it. |
| 04:08.33 | Sargun | It's one of the few areas of Telecom I haven't dabbled in |
| 04:08.56 | Sargun | because mostly getting an SS7 link involves either lots of money, or requires someone competent in that sort of stuff ;-P |
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| 04:10.14 | tensai | we paid a good chunk of change for our ss7 switch |
| 04:10.51 | tensai | it's an hpux server |
| 04:12.33 | Supaplex | I have twice as many ss7 links as I had last month. 0. |
| 04:13.00 | tensai | Supaplex: may your ss7 linkage double fortnightly! |
| 04:13.02 | jsmith | I know there are some big customers using Asterisk for SS7 stuff now |
| 04:18.40 | Sargun | tensai, what are you running for your softswitch? |
| 04:18.56 | jsmith | prays that tensai doesn't say "Taqua" |
| 04:19.25 | Sargun | Most people who run SS7 buy "real switches" |
| 04:19.36 | tensai | it's a Lucent ASG |
| 04:19.38 | Sargun | with the scary 10-9 reliability. |
| 04:21.20 | jsmith | Right... |
| 04:21.35 | tensai | this puppy is pretty reliable, although a few years back the tape drive died and locked up the entire system |
| 04:21.43 | Sargun | Well, not 10-9, but 5-9... Oddly enough I've seen those systems die.... |
| 04:22.14 | Sargun | XO had a cascading failure of all their SS7 switches/links here a few weeks ago. |
| 04:22.24 | tensai | 10:22pm up 1616 days, 19:54, 1 user, load average: 1.87, 0.98, 0.61 |
| 04:22.38 | Sargun | tensai, type this: "reboot" |
| 04:22.39 | Sargun | ;-P |
| 04:22.52 | nick125 | reboots Sargun |
| 04:23.03 | Sargun | They apparently use a "proprietary" protocol between "areas" |
| 04:23.18 | Sargun | so it didn't cause a cascading failure for their entire network :-D |
| 04:23.35 | tensai | Sargun: have you read The Hacker Crackdown by Bruce Sterling? |
| 04:23.44 | Sargun | nope |
| 04:23.55 | tensai | you'd like it I bet |
| 04:24.04 | tensai | although there aren't any pictures :) |
| 04:24.10 | Sargun | wonders if it's available in Audio book |
| 04:24.22 | tensai | cory doctorow read it on his podcast |
| 04:24.41 | Sargun | Oh |
| 04:24.47 | Sargun | is that the entire book? online? |
| 04:24.52 | tensai | with permission, of course |
| 04:25.04 | tensai | yes, somewhere. I think I have all the chapters even. |
| 04:25.16 | Sargun | oh, neat. |
| 04:25.21 | Sargun | I'll read it sometime. |
| 04:25.24 | Supaplex | he's just missing the odd ones. ;) |
| 04:25.39 | Sargun | came a little bit too late to the scene for phone phreaking. |
| 04:25.50 | Sargun | but I've still done my fair bit of mucking around because of Asterisk. |
| 04:25.51 | tensai | 28 parts |
| 04:26.36 | tensai | anyway, my reason for mentioning it is there's was a major cascading failure of at&t's switches |
| 04:28.05 | Sargun | ah, interesting. |
| 04:28.12 | Sargun | I think everyone has those |
| 04:28.44 | tensai | Sargun: http://craphound.com/hackercrackdown.xml |
| 04:29.23 | Sargun | I'll listen to them at work |
| 04:30.10 | jsmith | Ok, I think my data is all safe and sound in it's new home... time for me to get some sleep |
| 04:30.13 | jsmith | G'night all! |
| 04:35.52 | jsmith-away | Ugh... spoke too soon :-( |
| 04:36.13 | jsmith-away | writes another script to clean up yet another coding error that could have easily been solved by a foreign key |
| 04:55.21 | levi | Man, F# has progressed a lot since I last looked at it. |
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| 04:57.31 | levi | It's got freakin' monads with sugared notation now. |
| 04:59.28 | levi | Except they were smart and called them 'workflows' to avoid scaring people. :) |
| 05:12.08 | tensai | now with 30% more monad! |
| 05:14.18 | levi | Monads are actually really awesome, even if you don't need them to do IO. |
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| 05:33.30 | tensai | I don't really know what they are, but the name sure is atrocious |
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| 12:47.05 | brac | i think I should be fun. :) |
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| 14:02.59 | elg | ~onjoin herlo |
| 14:03.11 | elg | ~onjoin herlo 1 UTOSC moderator request(s) waiting |
| 14:03.11 | ibot | ok, elg |
| 14:03.29 | elg | ~onjoin rsimpkins 1 UTOSC moderator request(s) waiting |
| 14:03.29 | ibot | ok, elg |
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| 15:09.13 | fozzmoo | Wahoo! DOW is UP to 9100 |
| 15:14.44 | ^Migs^ | The system works! |
| 15:15.29 | fozzmoo | buys 3 more houses. |
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| 15:22.58 | brac | i think it's stupid and limiting |
| 15:37.34 | high_roller | fozzmoo: buy low sell high |
| 15:37.52 | fozzmoo | high_roller: There's that. |
| 15:38.29 | high_roller | fozzmoo: I wish I had some extra cash, there's tons of homes on the market here, and quite a few that are up for auction |
| 15:38.38 | levi | Good morning. |
| 15:38.44 | levi | high_roller: Where's 'here'? |
| 15:38.52 | high_roller | Price |
| 15:39.15 | fozzmoo | high_roller: I have some extra cash, but I don't feel comfortable doing anything with it right now. |
| 15:39.35 | fozzmoo | levi: Good morning |
| 15:41.59 | levi | I wonder if we're going to have another sine wave market day. |
| 15:51.39 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@dhcp233.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:52.19 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. |
| 16:00.27 | Sargun | Anyone here a blackboard admin?" |
| 16:02.00 | elg | i administrate my whiteboard |
| 16:02.06 | elg | i hold the keys to its eraser |
| 16:03.32 | Sargun | heh. |
| 16:04.00 | Sargun | I basically need access to a blackboard class, quizes and things |
| 16:06.03 | elg | you probably need to contact someone at your university |
| 16:10.21 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@thelances.net) |
| 16:14.01 | sjansen | mumbles nasty things about Blackboard |
| 16:16.27 | Sargun | sjansen, I love blackboard too ;-P |
| 16:16.29 | elg | if you're looking for something to reverse engineer, don't look at blackboard |
| 16:16.38 | Sargun | I basically need screen shots to clone/compare to. |
| 16:16.49 | Sargun | Wow, Nasdaq is up... |
| 16:17.04 | ^Migs^ | Moodle is better |
| 16:17.16 | nick125 | has a great hatred for blackboard |
| 16:17.20 | ^Migs^ | incidentally, I was invited to help present on Moodle next month at a state technology fair |
| 16:17.27 | ^Migs^ | pwnage |
| 16:17.43 | sjansen | Sargun: You sure you want to go down that course? They have a proven track record of using (potentially baseless) litigation to avoid competition. |
| 16:19.22 | Sargun | sjansen, I just want to create a small test interface with the same UI |
| 16:19.42 | Sargun | I'll make it different enough to avoid patents |
| 16:20.54 | harleypig | -url |
| 16:20.58 | harleypig | -urls |
| 16:20.58 | brac | [2008/10/08 22:28:50] <tensai> http://craphound.com/hackercrackdown.xml |
| 16:20.59 | brac | [2008/10/08 16:52:55] <elg> http://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume2/v2i5/howto.htm |
| 16:20.59 | brac | [2008/10/08 16:48:45] <elg> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v21/n01/suth01_.html |
| 16:20.59 | brac | [2008/10/08 16:05:37] <harleypig> http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/mysql-founding-father-sails-sunset |
| 16:22.29 | Sargun | -pants |
| 16:25.30 | Jayce^ | we just wish harleypig had some |
| 16:26.58 | Sargun | We all do. |
| 16:27.05 | harleypig | I have some |
| 16:27.11 | harleypig | 2 i think |
| 16:27.26 | Sargun | heh |
| 16:28.42 | ^Migs^ | does anyone know of any articles talking about how teaching is the best way to learn? |
| 16:28.51 | ^Migs^ | like studies and stuff? |
| 16:36.12 | harleypig | Does anyone know of software for an educational institution that is basically an inside out version of the standard? |
| 16:36.38 | harleypig | e.g., Most schools focus on the curriculum and the course, and students need to adjust to those. |
| 16:37.01 | harleypig | What I'm looking for is something that focuses on the student and the curriculum and course adjusts to the student. |
| 16:42.22 | Jayce^ | Home schooling :) |
| 16:43.31 | unum | well he's looking for software |
| 16:43.49 | unum | the home school person I know wasn't allowed to use the computer except for typing |
| 16:43.52 | unum | programs |
| 16:44.03 | unum | because the computer could be used to acess evil |
| 16:46.06 | sjansen | seems to recall that some of the Fugals were home schooled for part of their education |
| 16:46.12 | JoshH | that's the problem with home schooling.. most home schooled people are schooled at home not to get a better education, but to keep them sheltered |
| 16:46.26 | harleypig | Jayce^: nope ... for mlatc |
| 16:46.31 | JoshH | then they get out into society as adults and become serial rapists |
| 16:46.47 | sjansen | They seem normal enou.... actually, wait, bad example |
| 16:47.05 | harleypig | JoshH: cereal rapists? |
| 16:48.01 | JoshH | i'm sure that cheerios are pretty sexy after a long day in your mom's basement |
| 16:48.34 | ^Migs^ | hmmm |
| 16:48.42 | ^Migs^ | you might want to check out expeditionary learning, harleypig |
| 16:49.01 | unum | I think home schooling can be done right, but most people do it wrong |
| 16:49.06 | ^Migs^ | it's better designed to adapt to what students are doing |
| 16:49.22 | ^Migs^ | in most cases, though, anyone trying to adopt a new pedagogy is still confined to state core curriculum requirements |
| 16:49.40 | ^Migs^ | unless of course it's a private K-12 school or university |
| 16:49.51 | Supaplex | did brac take over ^Migs^? |
| 16:49.57 | Supaplex | -chat about school |
| 16:49.58 | brac | school had a virus o/~ |
| 16:50.18 | Supaplex | sup migs :) |
| 16:50.23 | ^Migs^ | hey HEY hey Supa |
| 16:51.12 | harleypig | ^Migs^: is that a software package or a style of learning? |
| 16:51.36 | harleypig | ^Migs^: this is for the mlatc |
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| 16:53.21 | ^Migs^ | it's a style of learning |
| 16:53.38 | ^Migs^ | well, I don't know of any for college settings |
| 16:53.54 | ^Migs^ | I mean, not any formal ones, at least. I can give you some ideas, though |
| 16:54.17 | sjansen | elg: How would you describe your relationship with cereal? |
| 16:54.36 | ^Migs^ | one idea I'm tossing around in my mind right now is giving students teacher access to Moodle (or BlackBoard, or whatever LMS you're using) and letting them teach courses, under a teacher's supervision |
| 16:54.40 | elg | i enjoy half and half on my cereal |
| 16:56.09 | harleypig | ^Migs^: My brother is in charge of the computer networking department and he's looking for something that he can use. Nothing he's found, open source, commercial or the $1.2million fiasco the state has done matches his needs. |
| 16:56.18 | sjansen | ^Migs^: In my experience, teaching is only the best way to learn when you've got some skin in the game. |
| 16:56.33 | ^Migs^ | could you elaborate on what you mean by that, sjansen? |
| 16:56.48 | ^Migs^ | harleypig: what ARE his needs, exactly? |
| 16:57.35 | sjansen | Getting fired is a great motivator to prepare carefully. Getting embarrassed... not so much. Especially when there's a teacher hovering nearby to correct any mistakes. |
| 16:57.47 | harleypig | Basically, a student comes in and selects a course and time frame to complete the course ... students pay by the hour. |
| 16:58.22 | eightyeight | so, thunderbird sucks less now that it did this morning |
| 16:58.50 | goozbach | it's like frickin christmas |
| 16:58.56 | sjansen | If you can find a topic the student is interested in, then teaching is a good way to solidify knowledge. As a general pedagogical technique my gut says it won't work with most students or topics. |
| 16:59.01 | eightyeight | mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed should be 'false' not 'true' |
| 16:59.11 | goozbach | got a bunch of servers delivered today, wasn't expecting them till next week |
| 16:59.23 | Sargun_Screen | pants! |
| 16:59.29 | goozbach | I'll work like crazy today, but I'll actually be ahead of schedule for once! |
| 16:59.33 | harleypig | thongs! |
| 16:59.34 | goozbach | AWE some! |
| 16:59.58 | ^Migs^ | I think it might depend on what platform you let the students use, and if you give them incentives. |
| 17:00.37 | ^Migs^ | My idea is to let students teach on what topics they choose, with guidance from a teacher so they keep it educational. A point system would let them earn points when other students join their classes, take their quiz, etc. |
| 17:00.47 | harleypig | ^Migs^: right, but the point is, none of the software either myself nor my brother has looked can be easily modified to handle it. |
| 17:00.50 | sjansen | ^Migs^: I suspect platform is incidental. The most important thing is culture. The student has to take the teaching experience seriously. |
| 17:01.45 | sjansen | I personally have a very negative opinion of the usefulness of toys when teaching. Software is a great baby sitter, but rarely a very useful teaching tool. |
| 17:02.01 | ^Migs^ | Nonsense. It all depends on the teacher. |
| 17:02.15 | ^Migs^ | Technology doesn't make a bad teacher good, but it can make good teachers great. |
| 17:02.33 | Sargun_Screen | ^Migs^: Ad-hoc classses would be good. |
| 17:02.37 | ^Migs^ | harleypig: That was directed at sjansen, actually. What other LMSs has he looked at? |
| 17:02.42 | sjansen | A great entertainer or a great educator? |
| 17:03.00 | ^Migs^ | great entertainer is not necessarily = good teacher |
| 17:03.26 | unum | but a boring instructor does not make a good educator either. |
| 17:03.29 | unum | atleast not for me |
| 17:03.40 | Sargun_Screen | but you have o remember that the best students would have a too,unique nuche |
| 17:03.48 | sjansen | Most of the "great teachers" (by reputation) I've seen using technology were good entertainers, but not their time to information ratio was poor. |
| 17:03.58 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I know a few of those |
| 17:04.06 | ^Migs^ | I don't care about their reputation among students |
| 17:04.20 | ^Migs^ | I care about their reputation among administrators, the ones who actually KNOW if they're getting the job done |
| 17:04.36 | ^Migs^ | obviously students will flock to the ones who are "entertaining" |
| 17:04.41 | harleypig | ^Migs^: yah ... I realized that right after pressing enter. |
| 17:05.01 | sjansen | All of my best teachers limited themselves to a blackboard & chalk/whiteboard & marker/overhead & marker. |
| 17:05.03 | Supaplex | ^Migs^ supports the no administrator left behind act? :p |
| 17:05.13 | ^Migs^ | that's so old-school, sjansen |
| 17:05.17 | ^Migs^ | No Teacher Left Behind :) |
| 17:05.32 | sjansen | *shrug* I've always claimed to be a neo-luddite. |
| 17:05.50 | ^Migs^ | teachers nowadays have projectors and document cameras and SMART Boards |
| 17:05.56 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, nothing even resembling powerpoint should ever come near a classroom. |
| 17:06.15 | unum | I had a good teacher that used computer generated slide shows, and blackboard |
| 17:06.24 | unum | she was one of the last teachers I ever had |
| 17:06.31 | ^Migs^ | I was writing a post the other day called "Why PowerPoint does not belong in a classroom" but I can't remember where I was going with it |
| 17:06.32 | unum | well in a formal setting |
| 17:06.52 | sjansen | Bullet points != outline |
| 17:07.07 | unum | by computer generated slide show I mean powerpoint, I just don't like to use that word |
| 17:07.39 | Supaplex | underpoweredpoints just didn't fly with marketing |
| 17:07.47 | harleypig | ^Migs^: were you doing it in powerpoint? |
| 17:08.02 | ^Migs^ | no, but that would be loads of laughs |
| 17:08.19 | sjansen | Too often slides obscure information. Instead of being used to emphasis major points (like a professor writing on the chalk board) they end up being used to assist the instructor instead of the student. |
| 17:08.21 | ^Migs^ | maybe if I can remember what my objective was, I could use PowerPoint to illustrate why it's bad |
| 17:09.25 | Sargun_Screen | I hate it when people call my open office impress presentations power points :-P |
| 17:09.59 | sjansen | Instead of designing questions to probe understand and doing ad-hoc exploration of a problem according to the needs and interest of a class, technology ends up encouraging instructors to create a carefully choreographed presentation and avoid deviating from it. |
| 17:11.37 | unum | Supaplex: have you seen wimpy point? |
| 17:11.39 | sjansen | Adding a slide is cheap. Writing on a blackboard is expensive. The old school methods focus the mind, the new methods distract it. |
| 17:12.48 | sjansen | ^Migs^: BTW, "projectors and document cameras and SMART Boards" are hardware. I'm railing against software. |
| 17:13.32 | Sargun_Screen | SMARRT boards are in hard drives ;-P |
| 17:13.39 | ^Migs^ | no you were talking about technology in general |
| 17:13.47 | unum | I like using s3 for my user group presentations |
| 17:14.07 | Sargun_Screen | unum: why? how big are your groups? |
| 17:14.29 | sjansen | As far as I'm concerned, a document camera counts as a more powerful version of "please turn to page 42". |
| 17:14.31 | unum | Sargun_Screen: usually 20 or so, but then they can go to the website afterwards, and get the outline |
| 17:14.55 | unum | a document camera can be used like an overhead |
| 17:15.04 | sjansen | Exactly. |
| 17:15.32 | sjansen | Powerpoint on the other hand, encourages a pretty different approach. |
| 17:16.01 | sjansen | Whereas created transparencies used to be a PITA, creating a geez whiz PowerPoint stack is far too easy and distracting. |
| 17:16.17 | unum | I think powerpoint allows you to present the same out line you would on the chalk board with out having to take the time to write |
| 17:16.21 | unum | it |
| 17:16.30 | sjansen | Putting together a bunch of movie clips is fun. Actually talking about something is work. |
| 17:16.31 | unum | so you have less time of the students sitting around waiting |
| 17:16.55 | sjansen | unum: My point is that the slowness of the chalkboard is part of its value. |
| 17:17.08 | elg | and the chalk dust |
| 17:17.10 | elg | love the chalk dust |
| 17:17.24 | elg | i like to wear black to just defy the chalk dust |
| 17:17.25 | sjansen | Instructors should be spending their time deciding what order to present material, not deciding whether to use a wipe or slide transition. |
| 17:17.48 | elg | seriously, i definitely side with sjansen here. chalk and whiteboards ftw |
| 17:17.53 | sjansen | PowerPoint quickly turns into a distracting toy. Few people will distracted as easily be a piece of chalk. |
| 17:18.06 | elg | maybe 5 year olds |
| 17:18.13 | unum | but the students will get distracted while waiting for the teacher to write the new points |
| 17:18.22 | sjansen | unum: Hardly. |
| 17:18.38 | Sargun_Screen | sjansen: I can entertain myself for hours with chalk |
| 17:18.41 | elg | if the instructor has to write big long blobs |
| 17:18.46 | elg | but they shouldn't be doing that |
| 17:18.47 | sjansen | The time it takes the instructor to write on the board is roughly proportional to the time it takes the student to write notes. |
| 17:18.50 | Sargun_Screen | powerpoint is only so entertaining |
| 17:18.52 | elg | conciseness is part of the win |
| 17:19.08 | unum | never took notes |
| 17:19.11 | sjansen | PowerPoint on the other hand is so fast, it quickly buries the student. |
| 17:19.12 | unum | it was too distracting |
| 17:19.21 | unum | it depends on how it's done |
| 17:19.35 | Sargun_Screen | I hate teachers who hand write their notes. it usually ends up badly organized, etc |
| 17:19.36 | elg | yeah, standard notetaking practices are counterproductive |
| 17:19.45 | sjansen | What should I be paying attention to? The bullet points on the slide? The instructors words? What's the relationship between the two? |
| 17:19.54 | elg | i find it much more effective to sit there and listen and ponder |
| 17:19.54 | Sargun_Screen | I also dislike teachers that treat powerpoint like a toy... |
| 17:19.56 | unum | depends on the teacher |
| 17:20.04 | unum | I really like lessig style presentations |
| 17:20.13 | unum | elg: agreed |
| 17:20.18 | elg | and write down insights or important facts that i won't be able to find easily later |
| 17:20.29 | Sargun_Screen | elg: also, you can distribute power points far easier than boards.. |
| 17:20.29 | elg | reading teh textbook ahead is profoundly liberating |
| 17:20.40 | elg | you realize "hey, this was in the book" and you don't have to write it down. instead, you can think about it. |
| 17:20.47 | sjansen | I'm not saying PowerPoint can't be used effectively. I am saying that when PowerPoint is used effectively, it is barely used. |
| 17:20.52 | Sargun_Screen | elg: and teachers who don't teach to the book? |
| 17:20.53 | elg | you can distribute outlines and presentation notes without powerpoint |
| 17:21.07 | unum | sjansen: that I can agree with |
| 17:21.19 | elg | iff the teacher is presenting a subject that is entirely in his head or in a resource you don't have access to, write like mad. |
| 17:21.22 | unum | never read the book or took notes |
| 17:21.23 | elg | or record it, better. |
| 17:21.33 | Sargun_Screen | elg: but that means more work, and teachers hate notes |
| 17:21.42 | elg | no more work than setting up powerpoint |
| 17:21.50 | Sargun_Screen | s/notes/more work/ |
| 17:21.52 | elg | remember you're talking to teachers |
| 17:22.03 | elg | i think we know what we hate and don't hate |
| 17:22.13 | Sargun_Screen | they're not complete idiots... |
| 17:22.43 | Sargun_Screen | I can setup powerpoint presos, and according to most people here I have an IQ of about 2 |
| 17:22.48 | elg | writing an outline and making it available for students is easier than making powerpoint slides, with the same (or more) information contente. |
| 17:23.59 | elg | lecturing, otoh, is harder than just putting up slides and reading them |
| 17:24.07 | elg | but it's far more effective |
| 17:24.18 | elg | plus powerpoint is more toy fun |
| 17:25.06 | ^Migs^ | you can see PowerPoint as either a "distraction" or an "engaging" tool depending on how you do it |
| 17:25.08 | Sargun_Screen | elg: you didn't address legibility. |
| 17:25.11 | ^Migs^ | and PowerPoint is a great tool with clickers |
| 17:25.18 | elg | we have these things called computers |
| 17:25.28 | ^Migs^ | or things like http://www.polleverywhere.com |
| 17:25.30 | elg | they let you make outlines. maybe you've heard of word processors |
| 17:25.30 | sjansen | ^Migs^: I went back over my comments. I was complaining about software before I used the word "technology" and based on context it was obviously a poor choice of word. |
| 17:25.31 | brac | [Text Message (SMS) Polls and Voting, Audience Response System (ARS), PowerPoint Polling |
| 17:25.34 | brac | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:25.53 | ^Migs^ | yeah, but you're forgetting I'm always right |
| 17:26.10 | Sargun_Screen | hehe |
| 17:26.52 | sjansen | The term neo-luddite is very poorly defined. My personal definition is: "opposed to technology for technologies sake". |
| 17:26.53 | elg | scrolls back briefly |
| 17:27.02 | elg | yes, several of us were homeschooled |
| 17:27.23 | sjansen | In other words, there's a place for technology in the classroom. But it is limited. The focus should be on information, not technology. |
| 17:27.25 | elg | and i take issue with anyone who stereotypes homeschooled kids based on the wackos that are definitely out there |
| 17:27.38 | sjansen | Not "I can ..." but "it would help if I..." |
| 17:27.54 | elg | homeschool doesn't cause wackoism. wackos often choose to homeschool in order to more isolate themselves. |
| 17:29.09 | elg | i happen to believe, due to personal experience and observation, that when done right homeschooling does a better job of instilling learning skills into students than public schools tend to do. |
| 17:29.15 | sjansen | I grew up as computers were becoming "personal". I experienced an educational system that treated technology like pixie dust. Because they didn't fully understand it, it must be magic. Sprinkle a little on and it'll make everything better. |
| 17:29.59 | sjansen | While we have made progress and discovered some tools that actually are helpfully, most parents and teachers still don't understand the role of technology in the classroom. |
| 17:30.13 | sjansen | PowerPoint != better teaching. Multimedia != better teaching. |
| 17:30.30 | sjansen | Exploration & Discussion == better teaching. |
| 17:30.54 | elg | i once typed a report (6th grade, maybe?) on the computer and someone (not my teacher, a teacher in a higher grade) said she doesn't let her students submit typed or printed work, only handwritten |
| 17:31.10 | elg | for some reason which escaped logic to me even then, so I don't remember it |
| 17:31.17 | elg | she was an antipixie I think |
| 17:31.49 | sjansen | Oregon Trail == Baby Sitting |
| 17:31.59 | elg | i never did make it to oregon |
| 17:31.59 | Sargun_Screen | they had computers back then? |
| 17:32.01 | elg | i'm a failure |
| 17:32.22 | sjansen | Requiring sixth graders to go home and create a PowerPoint stack == marketing. |
| 17:32.28 | elg | i spent too much time hunting, iirc |
| 17:32.52 | Sargun_Screen | you should have bought a mig |
| 17:33.01 | elg | well, we had to make posters and other silly marketing droll |
| 17:33.17 | elg | hunting in oregon trail, i mean |
| 17:33.24 | elg | that was the best part of the game |
| 17:33.31 | elg | that shopping and traveling stuff was lame |
| 17:33.36 | elg | crossing rivers was ok |
| 17:33.40 | elg | but hunting was where it was at. |
| 17:33.56 | Sargun_Screen | you should have hired sam fisher.. |
| 17:34.57 | sjansen | I think that one of my biggest gripes about software and education is that interfaces are expensive. |
| 17:35.29 | elg | i use slides when it makes sense, but my personal rule is to never put my outline in the slides. they should only be used for supporting visuals. when there's a period where no visuals are required, they should be off (blank slide) |
| 17:35.37 | sjansen | The interface for a piece of chalk can be learned quickly. The interface for more limited software replacements takes longer to learn while limiting potential. |
| 17:36.05 | elg | good point |
| 17:37.42 | sjansen | Of course, there is a limited place for software in education. I think it is brilliant that some schools now have Web pages parents can check to find out what homework their child has been assigned, when it is due, etc. |
| 17:38.12 | elg | at least in college, a class without online resources is seriously lacking |
| 17:38.19 | sjansen | But that's _outside_ the classroom. That communicating, not entertaining. |
| 17:38.25 | elg | syllabus, outline, maybe lecture notes, assignments, due dates, etc. |
| 17:38.29 | elg | exactly |
| 17:43.37 | high_roller | it seems like technology is abused in schools these days |
| 17:44.25 | high_roller | instead of explaining how things acutally work and giving a good understanding of stuff, people feel that kids just need to learn how to use computers (microsoft) |
| 17:45.34 | levi | I like the Seymour Papert school of computer use for education. |
| 17:46.41 | elg | i think every student should be required to write his own operating system |
| 17:46.50 | elg | by 11th grade |
| 17:46.55 | elg | and use it for the rest of his life! |
| 17:49.06 | sjansen | Some people seem to consider teaching computers a form of vocational preparation. Fair enough. Do it in high school when kids are close to college or a vocation. |
| 17:50.30 | sjansen | No sixth grader should have to learn to use a Word processor. Type, maybe. Instead of cursive writing. But most software they learn will be obsolete and maybe very different by the time it is a job requirement. |
| 17:52.11 | high_roller | I learned how to type in the 2nd grade |
| 17:52.21 | high_roller | but I went to a class after school |
| 17:52.39 | sjansen | levi: If I understand you correctly, you're saying "I favor helping students understand how technology works, instead of how to use technology". Or in other words, how to get in the computers head, not how to meet every whim and desire of the computer. |
| 17:52.43 | high_roller | my mom was a secretary, and felt that typing was a critical skill I needed to learn early |
| 17:52.58 | sjansen | I would agree that typing is a critical skill. |
| 17:53.23 | jsmith | sjansen: Amen, brother! |
| 17:53.51 | levi | sjansen: Papert wrote 'Mindstorms' and created the Logo programming language. He viewed computers as an exploratory tool for developing algorithmic thinking and understanding the world through simulation, unless I'm getting his views mixed with Alan Kay's. |
| 17:54.24 | levi | http://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerful-Ideas/dp/0465046746 |
| 17:55.18 | elg | hence the operating system. :) |
| 17:55.25 | elg | but i'm being silly of course |
| 17:55.45 | levi | But Papert was certainly against using computers simply as tools to administer traditional curriculum more efficiently. I don't think computer use in the real world was advanced to the point of them being used in the classroom for computer vocation training. |
| 17:55.57 | levi | (when he wrote Mindstorms, that is) |
| 17:56.21 | high_roller | you can't teach computers as a vocation, because about every single job requires knowledge of using a computer |
| 17:56.41 | high_roller | using techology has to be integrated into education, just like paper and pencil |
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| 17:57.05 | levi | high_roller: That is, I believe, what many of us have been arguing against. |
| 17:57.24 | levi | At least at the 6th grade level. |
| 17:57.52 | high_roller | yea, I guess I should have been clearer, 9th grade is a good grade to start the techology integration |
| 17:57.54 | levi | Forcing kids to turn in PowerPoint presentations doesn't enhance their education. |
| 17:58.44 | high_roller | powerpoint presentations are kinda worthless w/o a presentation |
| 18:00.04 | high_roller | a better assignment would have been please make a presentation, and make sure to use some sort of visual media to help reinforce your ideas |
| 18:00.44 | levi | Yes. |
| 18:01.03 | levi | I'm interested in discussion what people think about *other* uses for computers in education, though. |
| 18:01.21 | levi | Aside from a tool to produce documents and visual media. |
| 18:01.37 | levi | We could make documents and visual media before; the computer adds nothing. |
| 18:02.34 | high_roller | yea, but a using software definitely makes it easier to get good looking visuals |
| 18:03.12 | high_roller | as was mentioned before, programming will help kids with developing algorithms and logic |
| 18:03.25 | high_roller | doesn't even have to be traditional programming |
| 18:04.05 | levi | In my opinion, it shouldn't be traditional programming. |
| 18:04.28 | high_roller | computers allow easy creation of graphs for math, so students can get a good visual representation of various functions, and how changes to those functions affect the output |
| 18:05.09 | high_roller | a wiki could help with collaborative writing in english classes |
| 18:05.14 | levi | Yes, math graphing and physics simulation are key areas where computers provide real benefit. |
| 18:05.50 | levi | I'm not sure the benefit of the wiki is really all that high in a classroom setting. |
| 18:07.26 | high_roller | yea, depends on the class |
| 18:08.00 | high_roller | google earth would be good for geography, and history classes |
| 18:08.27 | Sargun_Screen | levi: it can be |
| 18:08.53 | Sargun_Screen | for computer science classes (early cs) its very useful |
| 18:09.36 | levi | Sargun_Screen: A collaborative class-only wiki is useful for early cs classes? Or are you referring to something like Wikipedia? |
| 18:09.54 | Sargun_Screen | the earlier |
| 18:10.12 | Sargun_Screen | mostly because non-cs students have to take them too |
| 18:10.30 | Sargun_Screen | and cs teachers have a narrow teaching style |
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| 18:11.09 | levi | Are you saying this because you've experienced a wiki helping, or because you think it would? |
| 18:12.00 | sjansen | high_roller: I seriously doubt that one needs to teach technology use. Facebook, cellphones, etc. are doing a much better job than any school district could ever hope to. |
| 18:12.25 | Sargun_Screen | because there are a lot of cs majors explaining cs concepts to non-cs majors in cs classes |
| 18:12.30 | Sargun_Screen | and yes, I only believe it would help |
| 18:12.41 | levi | Sargun_Screen: I agree, but it doesn't necessarily follow that a wiki would make that work better. |
| 18:12.45 | Sargun_Screen | but multicasting 'rexplanation' is a goodidea |
| 18:12.48 | Sargun_Screen | idea |
| 18:13.23 | Sargun_Screen | I believe students should 'teach' their peers |
| 18:13.43 | Sargun_Screen | as in give a small presentation implementing the methods taught in class |
| 18:14.02 | Sargun_Screen | to 3-5 of their peers |
| 18:14.07 | levi | Yes, but involving technology in that might not be of any real benefit. |
| 18:14.48 | levi | I'm all for using technology in ways that it will truly benefit, but I am skeptical of proposals for doing so. |
| 18:14.56 | sjansen | I don't see how forcing students to learn wiki markup instead of handing them a blank piece of paper and a pencil results in better "peer learning". |
| 18:15.09 | levi | sjansen: Exactly. |
| 18:15.24 | levi | Students are really very good at getting together with their peers to study things. |
| 18:16.07 | Sargun_Screen | sjansen: paper and pencils are not effective, for many (aspies especially) organization is a problem |
| 18:16.14 | levi | Wikis would primarily benefit online-only classes (which are pretty poor anyway) and geeks who don't have the social skills to join a study group. |
| 18:16.54 | sjansen | Sargun_Screen: Wiki markup is not going to make organization easier. |
| 18:17.59 | sjansen | If your concern is that the exercise is too free form, hand the student a piece of paper with an outline that needs to be fleshed out. Or a blank piece of paper and another with a list of steps to create a presentation. |
| 18:18.16 | Sargun_Screen | I far prefer a wiki than pencil and paper |
| 18:18.47 | sjansen | Why? |
| 18:19.49 | Sargun_Screen | wikis can move information at the speed of light, organization is easier, revision is also easier |
| 18:20.03 | elg | botsnack for whoever can name the author of this quote (without Google's help): |
| 18:20.03 | elg | "The secret of getting ahead is getting started; and the secret of getting started is breaking your complex, overwhelming tasks into small, manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one." |
| 18:20.18 | harleypig | But if the electrons get all jumbled up they're harder to fix. |
| 18:20.40 | levi | Because Sargun is a technology-obsessed kid who will pretty much always prefer the technological solution. |
| 18:20.44 | sjansen | If speed and flexiblity is your concern, use Notepad. |
| 18:20.47 | Sargun_Screen | ~lart harleypig |
| 18:20.47 | ibot | flings poo at harleypig |
| 18:21.00 | harleypig | poopoos Sargun_Screen |
| 18:21.11 | Sargun_Screen | sjansen: for example, for history class my peers were all over the city |
| 18:21.17 | sjansen | You can copy and paste, just like a wiki. Without wasting your life learning yet another markup that will never be used with any other wiki you encounter again in your life. |
| 18:21.25 | Sargun_Screen | we could all make a change to the google doc |
| 18:21.46 | Sargun_Screen | and distribute ours changes to come up with the perfect study guide |
| 18:21.57 | levi | I certainly wouldn't argue against a group of students deciding to do that on their own. |
| 18:22.12 | sjansen | I'm arguing against an instructor imposing it. |
| 18:22.21 | levi | As am I. |
| 18:22.43 | sjansen | The problem is, students today know how to make better use of technology than the teachers fumbling to find a way to artificially insert it. |
| 18:23.18 | sjansen | I'm all for letting students find their own method. Be it google docs, wiki, etc. |
| 18:23.40 | sjansen | But the teacher should be doing nothing more than creating the general requirement. Not imposing specific technology. |
| 18:29.16 | ^Migs^ | I agree with that |
| 18:29.20 | ^Migs^ | Teachers need to teach concepts, not specific tools |
| 18:29.28 | unum | I was talking to a teacher the other day(who has her students do homework on line on a custom website). who told me how other 20 something teachers didn't know about blogs or wikis |
| 18:29.30 | ^Migs^ | Especially in K-12 environments, because by the time they graduate, what they learned will be obsolete |
| 18:29.38 | unum | ^Migs^: that's true |
| 18:30.01 | *** join/#utah mrpull-lt (n=Jake@71.16.230.132) |
| 18:30.22 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | Today is the last single-digit day in October | Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. |
| 18:30.26 | ^Migs^ | What I don't think many administrators understand yet is that you DON'T need to teach kids "technology." They already know how to use it. What you need to do is GUIDE them to learn how to use the technology for educational purposes, and create learning opportunities for them. |
| 18:30.58 | eightyeight | who here uses mutt and wouldn't mind looking at my .muttrc? i struggling to login to gmail, yet it seems everything is setup correctly |
| 18:31.07 | ^Migs^ | For example, let the kids use their iPods in class, and show them how to get on iTunes U and download educational podcasts. That would be a great lesson: "Class, today's homework is to find a podcast about the Civil War and listen to it on your iPod" |
| 18:31.13 | eightyeight | http://pastebin.com/d3debc850 is my .muttrc, so far |
| 18:31.29 | ^Migs^ | "and for those who don't have one, listen on your computer. If you don't have a computer, I'll burn a CD for you." |
| 18:32.29 | ^Migs^ | and here's a great blog all about using cell phones in the classroom: http://www.cellphonesinlearning.com |
| 18:32.48 | Sargun_Screen | if you don't have a cd player? |
| 18:33.20 | ^Migs^ | I'm pretty sure that would cover 100% of students in most cases |
| 18:33.23 | unum | go to the school, or public library |
| 18:33.54 | ^Migs^ | Often, though, these useful tech tools are banned, rather than used as educational devices. |
| 18:34.14 | ^Migs^ | and once you ban, it can be hard to reverse the ban to allow the learning opportunities |
| 18:35.03 | unum | what really bothers me is the fight some school authorities are leading against wikipedia |
| 18:35.17 | unum | I would put wikipedia up against any of my text books for accuracy |
| 18:36.01 | ^Migs^ | I'm not sure how reliable the studies I've heard about are, but supposedly they're just AS accurate if not moreso than an encyclopedia |
| 18:36.04 | levi | Students *should* be banned from using cell phones in class in K-12, and at the discretion of professors afterward. :P |
| 18:36.12 | ^Migs^ | of course they should, levi |
| 18:36.22 | ^Migs^ | but usually it's just a blanket ban, not with the "at the discretion of professors" clause |
| 18:36.45 | levi | I've never heard of a university with a cell phone ban. |
| 18:36.59 | ^Migs^ | maybe they should ban them in universities too |
| 18:37.16 | levi | And cell phones will be more of a learning tool than a distraction when pigs fly. |
| 18:37.20 | unum | text messaged during class |
| 18:37.36 | unum | actually once I switched to polisci I stopped |
| 18:37.42 | unum | class was more interesting... |
| 18:37.51 | ^Migs^ | nobody's saying one has to be "more of" anything |
| 18:38.01 | ^Migs^ | all teachers need to point out is they CAN be a learning tool |
| 18:38.14 | levi | Sure, but not *in the classroom* |
| 18:38.45 | levi | And I haven't seen anything on that silly blog so far that's not a *real* stretch. |
| 18:40.13 | levi | In fact, most of the cellphonesinlearing.com entries disgust me. |
| 18:46.22 | fozzmoo | "With the current state of affairs I wish to fervently express the importance of voting for me. Depending on who becomes president I very well could be the last hope of liberty and freedom on earth." |
| 18:46.33 | fozzmoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:47.51 | levi | fozzmoo: No, it's SUPERDELL. |
| 18:48.00 | fozzmoo | Oh. yeah. right. |
| 18:48.09 | levi | Show the guy a little respect! He sure deserves it! |
| 18:48.42 | unum | has his ballot |
| 18:48.56 | levi | Sometimes his ego boggles my mind. |
| 18:49.03 | unum | I marked superdell right away |
| 18:49.13 | levi | Heh. |
| 18:49.15 | fozzmoo | "First keep the commandments, and then we will indeed prosper in the land. It is both a promise from God and a promise from SUPERDELL." |
| 18:49.25 | fozzmoo | I was a little nervous following that advise from God, but if SUPERDELL is behind it too... I'm all for it. |
| 18:50.38 | levi | Are you reading his blog? |
| 18:50.51 | fozzmoo | My brother in law is pasting highlights to me. :) |
| 18:51.05 | fozzmoo | "I am so dang Totally Awesome that satan encourages his angles to fight me every where he can as I am one of his greatest enemies." |
| 18:51.20 | fozzmoo | Satan's angles are after me! Save me from the obtuse army! |
| 18:51.21 | unum | fozzmoo: I thought you'd be the prime advocate for the libertarian candidate ;) |
| 18:51.26 | sjansen | I have no problem with demonstrating how technology can be used for learning. But don't expect every teacher to be able to do it, and don't integrate it into day to day learning as a requirement. |
| 18:51.40 | unum | sweet a new blog entry |
| 18:52.01 | sjansen | Bring in an expert once a year to demonstrate using cellphones, ipods, etc. Do a gee whiz ain't it cool presentation. |
| 18:52.44 | unum | I remember in college none of the engineers would worry about understand math or physics, because once you're "in the field" you just use your computer to do that stuff |
| 18:53.10 | fozzmoo | [Women] can choose NOT to be a slut. |
| 18:53.27 | sjansen | But you're "ipod, or computer, or CD" is exactly one of the problems. We already have enough class stratification without making it part of the daily classroom environment. |
| 18:53.55 | Tene | [Women] can also choose TO be a slut. |
| 18:53.55 | unum | i'd always point out that someone had to program the computer |
| 18:54.07 | Tene | unum: no, they come from the factory that way! |
| 18:55.16 | fozzmoo | Tene: You're talking SUPERDELL language. |
| 18:55.21 | unum | Tene: I've tried to explain what I do for a job..... |
| 18:55.47 | fozzmoo | unum: What would you do for a job? |
| 18:55.52 | unum | i like how this guys is all ultra mormon and then makes accusations about bonneville corp |
| 18:56.07 | unum | fozzmoo: I would write software, if I wasn't always arguing in here |
| 18:56.20 | JoshH | i'd love it if he got ex'd for being an idiot |
| 18:56.26 | fozzmoo | Oh. I thought it was a What/Who type of thing. |
| 18:56.28 | sjansen | Mormon does not necessarily imply LDS. |
| 18:56.43 | levi | unum: His next step, certainly, will be starting a splinter sect of the Mormon church. |
| 18:56.52 | unum | levi: it looks that way |
| 18:56.58 | Tene | We can always use more of those. |
| 18:57.16 | fozzmoo | The Tene-Mormons: Your woman all choose to be slut. |
| 18:57.18 | unum | though if he's able to find multiple wives... |
| 18:57.25 | JoshH | he could take a lot of the morons with him, and leave the more reasonable mormons in the "true" lds church |
| 18:57.28 | unum | can't even find one |
| 18:57.28 | sjansen | Mormon is a culture. LDS is a religion. Too many people get caught up in the Mormon culture and lose sight of the LDS religion. |
| 18:58.00 | unum | he says bob springmeyer wouldn't answer my call.... |
| 18:58.03 | unum | I bet he would. |
| 18:58.16 | levi | unum: But if he did, he wouldn't *care* what you said. |
| 18:58.25 | levi | He might say he would, but he wouldn't care like SUPERDELL would! |
| 18:58.32 | Tene | http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=4 -- entertaining |
| 18:58.39 | unum | levi: oh, thanks now I understand |
| 18:58.57 | levi | unum: However, I'll bet if you called SUPERDELL, he'd care enough to call you an evil baby-killing socialist! |
| 18:59.02 | JoshH | unum: don't worry too much, most polyg wives wouldn't be able to get a husband any other way |
| 18:59.06 | unum | I've had numerous changes to talk to the democratic candidate face to face |
| 18:59.37 | levi | Bob Springmeyer wouldn't care enough about you to do that, I'm sure. |
| 18:59.52 | JoshH | the real ones aren't as good looking as barb and margie on big love |
| 19:00.45 | levi | "Charity is of God, socialism is of Huntsman" |
| 19:01.44 | RyanE | I really want someone who pulled a gun in a traffic altercation being a leader... not. |
| 19:01.50 | unum | I still think he belongs on the constitutionalist ticket |
| 19:02.02 | unum | RyanE: they threatened his car!!! |
| 19:02.19 | unum | anyone who threatens my property deserves to die. |
| 19:02.45 | RyanE | I'm sure he felt threatened, but I think to pull a gun, your *life* should be threatened. |
| 19:02.46 | unum | especially my precious car |
| 19:02.58 | unum | RyanE: legally that is the case |
| 19:02.58 | RyanE | idiot. |
| 19:03.20 | RyanE | (SuperDell, not you, unum), although I reserve the right to change that opinion... :) |
| 19:03.22 | unum | it's funny to me how self-righteous and materialistic some people can be |
| 19:03.36 | levi | Whee, the Dow is below 9000 now. |
| 19:03.55 | levi | S&P 500 is below 1000. |
| 19:04.00 | unum | buy buy buy |
| 19:04.24 | RyanE | past performance is not a guarantee of future results. :) |
| 19:04.34 | levi | Indeed. |
| 19:04.44 | unum | it's people like you that destroying this country :P |
| 19:04.58 | RyanE | yep, people *LIKE* me, just not me. :) |
| 19:05.09 | RyanE | That is, bald old guys. |
| 19:05.37 | sjansen | I thought the hippies were destroying this country. |
| 19:05.51 | unum | only if they're not buying stock |
| 19:05.57 | RyanE | Their turn was in the 60's. It's the old farts' turn since the mid 80's. |
| 19:06.20 | RyanE | and now that I'm officially an old fart, I've got to do my part. |
| 19:06.24 | levi | sjansen: Them too. |
| 19:06.32 | RyanE | "You kids! Get off my lawn!" |
| 19:06.32 | levi | Darned hippies! |
| 19:06.55 | sjansen | RyanE: Can I help if I buy my own shotgun? |
| 19:07.18 | RyanE | You're not old enough. |
| 19:07.31 | RyanE | but when the Zombies come, that shotgun will be handy, so I'd say go for it. |
| 19:12.01 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (n=Tadaka@c-67-177-61-219.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:19.19 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75.148.99.197) |
| 19:31.23 | *** join/#utah bonez46 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 19:36.17 | bonez46 | I know this is often detested by this crowd.. but I am wondering about creating a graphical, i.e., html based newsletter.. to publish via email.. I prefer text based, but I work with real people, who are not technical.. who want to open a nice looking graphical newsletter on their browser.. not open a text based letter in mutt or something.. Suggestions? Should I just create it using OOWrite, or Scribus, or what works well? |
| 19:36.35 | bonez46 | anyone here run a business where they send out a newsletter to customers and clients, via email? |
| 19:37.18 | elg | <pre> |
| 19:37.21 | bonez46 | is this thing on? |
| 19:37.32 | bonez46 | elg? <pre>? ?? |
| 19:38.00 | elg | then they can open your text-based newsletter in any client and get the layout you want |
| 19:38.03 | elg | no need for mutt |
| 19:38.14 | elg | if you want to write html, do it however you'd write html for a webpag |
| 19:38.31 | maquis | w00t!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 19:38.38 | bonez46 | but.. if I produced it with Write, et al, I could make it with variable fonts, and include pictures, and such.. right? |
| 19:38.44 | sjansen | bonez46: HTML email is better for marketing. Text email is better for actually conveying information. |
| 19:39.01 | bonez46 | elg: well, that's the thing, I don't do much html writing yet, just wondering where to start that way... |
| 19:39.25 | bonez46 | sjansen: well, marketing it what I am all about now.. I want to get the word out and get a better response on letters and news that I send to patients. |
| 19:39.40 | sjansen | bonez46: Exactly. |
| 19:39.51 | sjansen | That's why we won't attack you for using HTML. |
| 19:39.54 | bonez46 | I guess I am saying that my patients want not as much indepth info, as a little, with a more graphical presentation |
| 19:39.59 | levi | Heh, I just got a cell phone text spam advertising what looked like a liar loan. |
| 19:40.24 | bonez46 | sjansen: ah, thank you.. I know some are very hostile... Oh, never compose or send out html in email.. bad bad bad.. I have heard it from some.. |
| 19:41.04 | bonez46 | sjansen: should I just write it up with oowriter, and format it how I want.. and mail it out that way? |
| 19:41.11 | levi | maquis: What are you wooting about? |
| 19:41.15 | sjansen | Although most of us probably won't be much help either. The most useful response you're likely to get is "I helped write something like that at my last job. I'll do it again for $XX,XXX" |
| 19:42.43 | sjansen | As you're evaluating solutions, a well designed application will allow you to create and HTML email with a reasonable text version and allow subscribers to choose if they prefer HTML or text. |
| 19:42.49 | elg | lol "How do you expect to drink from the FLASK OF WHISKEY when it is not in your jacket pocket???" |
| 19:43.04 | levi | elg: What's that from? |
| 19:43.18 | elg | ms paint adventures |
| 19:45.37 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 19:46.09 | bonez46 | sjansen: My preferred method of mailing is using mailman. I have several lists there.. and I finally figured out how to switch it so that it would ALLOW graphical email through, instead of cutting out all the html |
| 19:47.35 | *** join/#utah carmony (n=justin@c-67-164-249-224.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:48.16 | carmony | wow, a lot more people in here than I though there would be. |
| 19:48.36 | RyanE | Why, because Utah is a desert? :) |
| 19:49.27 | Jayce^ | no, he's heard of harleypig and figured the room would be cleared by now |
| 19:49.41 | RyanE | That would be *graphical* IRC, not teh textual variety. |
| 19:50.13 | Jayce^ | pipes harleypig through aalib just for RyanE |
| 19:50.31 | Jayce^ | watches sjansen watching from the sideline.. |
| 19:50.33 | carmony | lol, I guess ;) |
| 19:50.39 | ^Migs^ | thinks carmony is anti-Utah |
| 19:50.49 | Jayce^ | burn him! he's a witch! |
| 19:51.11 | sjansen | ~greet carmony |
| 19:51.11 | ibot | ACTION dumps a bucket of cold oatmeal on carmony |
| 19:51.31 | ^Migs^ | ~whaleslap carmony |
| 19:51.31 | ibot | ACTION beats carmony upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 19:51.40 | sjansen | ~defend carmony |
| 19:51.41 | ibot | ACTION jumps in front of carmony, taking all insults, violence and anything else negative thrown toward carmony so that carmony may live on in peace and quiet |
| 19:51.51 | ^Migs^ | ~whalebomb sjansen |
| 19:51.52 | ibot | ACTION throws an explosive whale named Gunter at sjansen and hides. |
| 19:51.58 | carmony | hides! |
| 19:52.10 | sjansen | ~travolta ^Migs^ |
| 19:52.11 | ibot | ACTION replaces ^Migs^ with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 19:52.14 | carmony | I'm not anti-utah! :P I live in utah! :) |
| 19:52.20 | ^Migs^ | so? |
| 19:52.29 | Jayce^ | that's what they all say! |
| 19:52.36 | ^Migs^ | do you realize how many Utards say, "omg i h8 utah!" and think they're cool for it? |
| 19:52.40 | sjansen | A traitor within! He moved to Utah to subvert and destroy it! |
| 19:52.46 | ^Migs^ | as if anywhere else would be better |
| 19:52.50 | Jayce^ | take ^Migs^ for example.. |
| 19:53.06 | ^Migs^ | ^Migs^ is just awesome all around. |
| 19:53.23 | ^Migs^ | too awesome to use /me in fact |
| 19:54.19 | carmony | is to lazy to type carmony, /me is faster |
| 19:55.46 | sjansen | carmony is lazy, that means carmony is a Windows user |
| 19:55.50 | sjansen | ~punish carmony |
| 19:55.51 | ibot | ACTION forces carmony to install and use Windows |
| 19:55.59 | levi | I'm a Windows user, too. |
| 19:56.00 | ^Migs^ | ~whalenuke carmony |
| 19:56.01 | ibot | ACTION dons her radiation cloak and tinted glasses while a highly intelligent whale named Ray precipitates critical mass for uncontrolled nuclear fission around carmony with his mind powers. |
| 19:56.19 | sjansen | ~scorn levi |
| 19:56.52 | levi | http://chicago.about.com/od/neighborhoodshistory/a/AdlerDebateStmt.htm |
| 19:57.00 | brac | [Adler Planetarium Statement on Obama-McCain Debate - Projector Comment] |
| 19:57.09 | levi | Adler Planetarium's response to McCain's blasting of the 'overhead projector' earmark. |
| 19:57.43 | carmony | lol, what if I am a windows user? :( |
| 19:58.12 | levi | carmony: Well, if you use Firefox, you might be forgiven. |
| 19:58.22 | sjansen | No forgiveness! |
| 19:58.29 | sjansen | He must pay penance! |
| 19:58.36 | carmony | <3s firefox SOOO MUCH |
| 19:58.42 | sjansen | carmony: I hereby sentence you to buying donuts for the rest of #utah. |
| 19:58.46 | levi | Well, you'll never get forgiveness from sjansen. He's just curmudgeonly like that. |
| 19:59.29 | carmony | uses linux for all his servers... |
| 19:59.37 | carmony | and for my "guest" pc! :) |
| 19:59.44 | sjansen | I want mine to be a chocolate sourcream cake donut.... and none of that fake Hersey's chocolate, I want _real_ chocolate! |
| 19:59.54 | Jayce^ | ~sjansen |
| 19:59.55 | ibot | sjansen is one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is |
| 19:59.56 | levi | carmony: Okay, you sound geeky enough to hang out here, then. ;) |
| 20:00.03 | carmony | whew... |
| 20:00.04 | carmony | ;) |
| 20:00.10 | sjansen | Does this mean I'm not getting my donut? |
| 20:00.28 | carmony | gives sjansen a donut with real chocolate! |
| 20:00.41 | jsmith | ~buy sjansen donut |
| 20:00.41 | ibot | ACTION goes to S-Mart and gets a dozen donuts for sjansen |
| 20:04.14 | *** join/#utah mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 20:04.49 | *** part/#utah mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 20:05.55 | Jayce^ | http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/sp4ce_otto_7/pottervs.jpg |
| 20:10.23 | unum | carmony: if we had known you were a linspire user we wouldn't have let you stay |
| 20:12.06 | carmony | ROFL, I don't use it anymore, did way back in the day :P I use Ubuntu now when I need a linux desktop :) |
| 20:15.16 | unum | ah well even fslc tolerates ubuntu. |
| 20:18.01 | Jayce^ | but who tolerates the fslc? |
| 20:18.19 | carmony | Linspire used to be good for people who knew nothing about linux. But the last year or so Ubuntu has really surpased Linspire, which has kinda gone stagnate. |
| 20:18.51 | levi | Linspire got distracted by Haskell or something. |
| 20:19.16 | levi | They were, at some point, trying to write a bunch of system management stuff in Haskell. |
| 20:19.24 | unum | has anyone ever done anything with odf using c++ |
| 20:19.42 | Jayce^ | I think sjansen has :) |
| 20:19.53 | elg | ~rlart |
| 20:19.54 | ibot | decapitates WoodsDog conan the destroyer style |
| 20:20.04 | elg | so now he's just Woods |
| 20:21.26 | sjansen | Ugh. I have explored the possibility of using OO.o (which can create ODF) but I prefer to forget that part of my life. OO.o's COM work alike is hideous. |
| 20:22.01 | unum | so basically it sounds like we have the same experience |
| 20:22.38 | unum | supposedly they are working on something called UNO, I'm even on the mailling list, but I can never find where to download it |
| 20:22.53 | jsmith | unum: Google for "PyUno" |
| 20:23.39 | unum | nice, so one part of uno seems to be in use |
| 20:26.15 | unum | I think I finally found it |
| 20:36.02 | Jayce^ | jsmith, I fear knowing why you knew that... |
| 20:37.53 | jsmith | Jayce^: You... fear knowledge? |
| 20:38.13 | jsmith | would share how he learned about PyUNO, but its... complicated |
| 20:38.37 | jsmith | and I wouldn't want to swear in front of the kids :-) |
| 20:39.01 | harleypig | perks up |
| 20:39.05 | harleypig | Swear? |
| 20:39.24 | harleypig | my perky ... what an image. |
| 20:39.41 | harleypig | s/my/me/ |
| 20:45.52 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@208.122.58.210) |
| 20:59.18 | harleypig | co-worker came up with a great costume for me ... a turban. |
| 20:59.36 | harleypig | I should do that, and buy a bunch of gas cans ... see if I make it to work that day. |
| 21:04.23 | sjansen | wonders if there would be a reward to reporting harleypig to the authorities |
| 21:04.56 | harleypig | Those usually have a 'upon successful prosecution' clause. |
| 21:05.33 | harleypig | And since I'd be in Guantanamo and never face trial you'd be out of luck. |
| 21:06.09 | Jayce^ | sjansen, there probably is pre-costume ... |
| 21:06.09 | unum | man I fought for this to be done in odf, now I'm not sure what to do |
| 21:06.18 | unum | maybe I'll give up and go with rtf |
| 21:06.31 | harleypig | read the friggin |
| 21:06.36 | RyanE | Harleypig: If you want gitmo, be sure and buy a lot of diesel and fertilizer that day. |
| 21:07.08 | harleypig | feh ... now a days the cops just have to be really pissed at you ... I can do that without even thinking. |
| 21:07.18 | harleypig | which is usually my problem anyway. |
| 21:07.25 | harleypig | Most cops don't like to be seig heiled. |
| 21:07.32 | harleypig | or however you wanna say it. |
| 21:07.50 | tensai | I thought the patriot act authorized deadly force for anybody suspicious looking |
| 21:07.56 | tensai | http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006Ocd |
| 21:10.27 | harleypig | The patriot act is our first major step towards another Nazi state. |
| 21:10.34 | harleypig | s/is/was/ |
| 21:10.39 | Jayce^ | first? |
| 21:10.43 | Jayce^ | nah |
| 21:10.45 | harleypig | first *major* |
| 21:10.48 | unum | "I hate muslim arabs, I'm going to go shoot hindu indians" |
| 21:10.54 | Jayce^ | still goign to say nope to that one |
| 21:11.24 | harleypig | unum: "Anyone who looks different from me should be kilt lest they corrupt me with their differentness" |
| 21:11.50 | Jayce^ | heck, gulf of Tonkin resolution was at least as big.. and that wasn't the first |
| 21:11.51 | levi | We should dress all the different people in kilts? |
| 21:11.52 | harleypig | Jayce^: first overtly major step? |
| 21:12.01 | Jayce^ | harleypig, "kilt" :) |
| 21:12.03 | harleypig | levi: thongs |
| 21:12.04 | unum | harleypig: I think that's the exact sort of thinking that caused my ancestors to move here |
| 21:12.30 | unum | the killing people thing, not the thong thing |
| 21:12.39 | unum | of course we even looked the same... |
| 21:13.29 | unum | oh and I still don't think Romney will be the 2012 nominee |
| 21:14.02 | levi | We're already looking for 2012 nominees? |
| 21:14.09 | unum | the funny thing is how willing people on one end of the abuse are willing to turn around and give it to others |
| 21:14.19 | unum | someone brought it up the other day, might have been a different channel |
| 21:14.37 | Jayce^ | levi, been looking at them since these ones started getting locked in... |
| 21:14.56 | Jayce^ | either way I'll be unhappy.. |
| 21:15.10 | Jayce^ | of course, mid-term rotation is scary too |
| 21:16.16 | harleypig | Jayce^: I'm not sure agree with Gulf of Tonkin being a step towards naziism ... in any case I was being ... inflamatory when I said that. |
| 21:16.30 | harleypig | I *DO* think we are heading towards a police state (and are very nearly there). |
| 21:16.58 | harleypig | And a nasty one at that. 1984 has nothing on what the truth is turning out to be. |
| 21:17.06 | Jayce^ | harleypig, giving the executive branch the power to basically declare war without legislative approval? I think that was a pretty darn major step |
| 21:17.21 | harleypig | But not towards a police state. |
| 21:17.42 | harleypig | It certainly made us more aggressive. |
| 21:17.47 | Jayce^ | sure, it was also used towards more federalization of the national guard, and using it as a police power.. |
| 21:18.15 | Jayce^ | which has finally resolved in the newest laws which resulted in the recent transfer of the 3rd brigade to be used for "civil unrest" in the CONUS |
| 21:18.23 | unum | I guess at gitmo they could be locking peoples faces in cages with rats |
| 21:18.31 | unum | now we just need to rename it the ministry of love |
| 21:18.33 | Jayce^ | now *that* is the police state |
| 21:18.40 | unum | I just hope I don't end up with that guys wife. |
| 21:40.43 | harleypig | unum: ferrets |
| 21:40.49 | harleypig | feral ferrets |
| 21:40.58 | harleypig | friggin' feral ferrets |
| 21:41.08 | harleypig | fatalistic friggin' feral ferrets |
| 21:41.12 | harleypig | fatalistic friggin' feral ferrets farting |
| 21:41.41 | harleypig | fatalistic friggin' feral ferrets forcing fellatio |
| 21:41.51 | Jayce^ | *poing* |
| 21:42.11 | harleypig | heh |
| 21:42.13 | tensai | http://www.ciphers.de/eng/content/Backround-Info/Bruce-Schneiers-comments.html |
| 21:42.41 | sjansen | Go go gadget clear screen! |
| 21:42.49 | tensai | somebody is really out of touch to be calling bruce scheier a goverment tool |
| 21:44.11 | unum | ya |
| 21:44.17 | unum | that's what I thought as well |
| 21:45.09 | unum | our secret untested product is so good that secret government employees are attacking it! |
| 21:45.14 | Jayce^ | but he's american, it's all part of the bush conspiracy! |
| 21:45.29 | harleypig | he he he ... you said bush ... he he he |
| 21:46.01 | harleypig | I am Cornholio! |
| 21:46.48 | sjansen | Whose turn was it to give harleypig his sleep pills today? |
| 21:47.25 | harleypig | Whoever it was, they goofed ... they gave me No-Doz instead |
| 21:54.38 | goozbach | my brain just turned off, someone quick, what's the command most often used to connect to a serial terminal? |
| 21:55.33 | high_roller | minicom ? |
| 21:55.35 | unum | telnet? |
| 21:56.05 | goozbach | minicom |
| 21:56.12 | goozbach | damn now how did I forget that |
| 21:56.30 | ^Migs^ | I'm taking an entire subdomain down in a few minutes. How do I set it so that any subdirectories on that subdomain will point to the root where I have a maintenance message? |
| 21:56.53 | ^Migs^ | e.g., http://blog.weber.k12.ut.us/jreeve/2008/10/07/awesome/moretags/etc/ will redirect to http://blog.weber.k12.ut.us/ |
| 21:57.10 | goozbach | maybe minicom wasnt it... |
| 21:57.31 | unum | apache regex foo is kind of different.... |
| 21:57.37 | elg | here's a mystery |
| 21:57.45 | JoshH | minicom or ckermit are basically it |
| 21:58.00 | elg | foo forks a process but returns immediately with one line of status on stdout |
| 21:58.04 | JoshH | minicom is better imo |
| 21:58.12 | elg | foo | growlnotify displays an immediate notification |
| 21:58.32 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:58.40 | elg | but sh -c "foo | growlnotify" | cat |
| 21:58.52 | elg | does not return, nor display the notification, until the forked process disappears |
| 21:58.56 | elg | I am detaching the forke process. |
| 21:59.09 | goozbach | hmm, minicom isn't installed on this server, I swear I've run the terminal command before on this machine... |
| 21:59.58 | JoshH | what are you trying to connect to? |
| 22:01.08 | goozbach | my switch |
| 22:01.21 | goozbach | which has been plugged into this server since I configured it months ago |
| 22:01.30 | JoshH | i'd just install minicom and use that |
| 22:01.30 | goozbach | mincom wasn't installed, now it is |
| 22:01.34 | goozbach | and I'm connected. |
| 22:02.53 | goozbach | oh boy, I feel stupid. |
| 22:03.10 | goozbach | maybe I should read my blog: http://blog.friocorte.com/2008/02/thoughts-while-working-with-a.html |
| 22:03.36 | high_roller | goozbach: its ok, I've been super forgetful lately too |
| 22:03.44 | high_roller | too many things going on |
| 22:04.19 | ^Migs^ | crap, almost have it |
| 22:04.28 | ^Migs^ | how do I set my htaccess to redirect ALL subdirectories to root directory? |
| 22:06.41 | JoshH | nice switch |
| 22:08.57 | *** join/#utah fugue88 (n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:09.11 | fozzmoo | What would the opposite of an injector be? |
| 22:09.41 | fozzmoo | c-kermit is a much better serial terminal app than minicom. |
| 22:10.04 | harleypig | fozzmoo: projector |
| 22:10.18 | fozzmoo | So, I need a PoE injector and a projector? |
| 22:10.26 | fozzmoo | How about injector and outjector? :) |
| 22:10.34 | fugue88 | extractor? |
| 22:10.39 | harleypig | exjector? |
| 22:10.46 | fugue88 | ha! |
| 22:11.14 | fozzmoo | Well, whatever it's called, I think I'm going to just make it myself. |
| 22:11.42 | tensai | receiver? |
| 22:12.29 | harleypig | why did I just think of the little red hen? |
| 22:13.38 | tensai | are you baking a loaf of bread? |
| 22:13.48 | harleypig | nope |
| 22:14.02 | harleypig | it's what fozzmoo said |
| 22:14.20 | harleypig | about doing it hisself. |
| 22:14.22 | goozbach | man, sfp modules aren't interchangeable :( |
| 22:14.38 | harleypig | stoopid friggin' pointless ? |
| 22:14.47 | harleypig | single fat person? |
| 22:14.57 | goozbach | optical transeivers which plug into cisco switches |
| 22:14.59 | fozzmoo | sheeesh. |
| 22:15.01 | fozzmoo | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1075809/No-barbed-wire--hurt-thieves-allotment-holders-told.html |
| 22:15.04 | harleypig | silly freakin' police |
| 22:15.17 | jsmith | goozbach: You mean those little things worth more that gold by weight? |
| 22:15.24 | jsmith | goozbach: Crazy, huh? |
| 22:15.25 | goozbach | jsmith: yeah |
| 22:15.35 | jsmith | goozbach: Nope... not interchangeable |
| 22:15.46 | goozbach | I thought I was gonna score with using the old ones |
| 22:16.01 | goozbach | looks like I have to fork over approx $4k |
| 22:16.39 | harleypig | He should just electrify the fence and not tell anyone. |
| 22:17.10 | goozbach | that makes me sad |
| 22:18.17 | harleypig | what? not telling anyone he electrified his fence? |
| 22:18.36 | harleypig | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:19.19 | goozbach | oh, harleypig were you talking? |
| 22:19.24 | goozbach | :) |
| 22:19.44 | harleypig | ooh ... |
| 22:19.51 | harleypig | clutches his chest |
| 22:19.53 | harleypig | I'm hurt! |
| 22:20.19 | goozbach | I wonder if they will work in my new load balancers... |
| 22:20.23 | goozbach | probabally not |
| 22:21.13 | jsmith | They'll only work on the previous model :-p |
| 22:21.28 | jsmith | Because it's a source of recurring revenue :-) |
| 22:25.14 | goozbach | I'll just use copper :( |
| 22:25.16 | goozbach | bah |
| 22:34.05 | harleypig | anybody know if and where I might find the latitude and longitude of the time zones? |
| 22:37.49 | goozbach | the tzdata information? |
| 22:38.00 | goozbach | or perhaps the zipcode database from the USPS |
| 22:38.26 | goozbach | the second choice will cost you, and it's a pain in the arse to use |
| 22:38.41 | goozbach | but that's how we get our bounding boxes for zipcode search |
| 22:38.53 | harleypig | No, I'd like to be able to determine what timezone I'm in based on lat and long |
| 22:39.19 | goozbach | well, there's more than zipcodes in that DB |
| 22:39.29 | goozbach | lat lon... etc |
| 22:39.39 | harleypig | anywhere in the world |
| 22:39.43 | harleypig | not just the us |
| 22:40.06 | goozbach | well, that's a horse of another color |
| 22:40.14 | goozbach | or colour if you are in the EU |
| 22:41.39 | harleypig | heh |
| 22:42.02 | harleypig | that was just coloured gelatin ... the horses were normal colors. |
| 22:42.58 | goozbach | formatting a 500G drive takes a long time |
| 22:43.00 | harleypig | the data's got to be somewhere ... I'm running into a number of web sites that offer a tz lookup based on lat & long |
| 22:51.45 | harleypig | feh ... at the very least, how are those maps generated? |
| 22:53.17 | harleypig | ah ... zone.tab |
| 22:58.28 | harleypig | feh FEH! zone.tab is city based |
| 23:06.07 | *** part/#utah bonez46 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 23:10.56 | goozbach | jsmith: guess what! these sfp modules DO work on my load balancer |
| 23:11.16 | goozbach | now if only I could plug the other end into my switch |
| 23:11.26 | jsmith | goozbach: Awesome... you can send me a check later ;-) |
| 23:32.26 | *** join/#utah mecworks (n=marc@nat/novell/x-0d352a8bcd080778) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
