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| 01:49.25 | findlay | hello |
| 01:50.25 | findlay | I hate differential equations pedagogy groupthink. The formula for solving linear first order ODEs should _not_ be memorized because, blah, blah |
| 01:50.35 | findlay | whatever |
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| 02:28.50 | eightyeight | palin has done very well, but did you notice that biden virtually got the last word on every question? |
| 02:29.08 | eightyeight | that moderator is clearly democrat |
| 02:30.12 | eightyeight | he even gets to close the final statements |
| 02:31.27 | undertakingyou | eightyeight: I think you are reading to much into it. |
| 02:31.29 | eightyeight | it's clear too that mccain and palin are one vision. biden and obama are very split |
| 02:31.55 | undertakingyou | I do agree that on some questions biden got the last word, but I doubt the moderator is doing that on purpose. |
| 02:32.24 | eightyeight | being independant, i look too close at everything :) |
| 02:33.59 | eightyeight | i4 say it went to palin. she's in touch with the american people. biden is a condensending lawyer clearly out of touch |
| 02:34.11 | Heartsbane | ~onjoin -Claud-SLC #utah |
| 02:34.11 | ibot | Heartsbane: ok |
| 02:34.30 | undertakingyou | Heartsbane: joy kill |
| 02:34.34 | Heartsbane | Bah I still can't see that |
| 02:43.26 | elg | palin skirted the questions and stuck to the stuff she was prepped for |
| 02:43.35 | elg | "ok, let's talk about x" |
| 02:43.44 | elg | "I want to talk about y. blah blah" |
| 02:43.48 | elg | but I think she did well |
| 02:44.01 | elg | except when she said main street was toxic and poisoning wall street ;-) |
| 02:45.35 | elg | and she said "nucular" |
| 02:45.43 | elg | is that a republican requirement? like a secret handshake? |
| 02:45.45 | eightyeight | yeah. she skirtes many questioms |
| 02:46.05 | eightyeight | *skirted |
| 02:47.04 | eightyeight | she still came across as one heart/one mind with mccain |
| 02:47.21 | eightyeight | biden sounded at times like he had his own agenda |
| 02:47.32 | elg | is that bad? |
| 02:48.00 | elg | i'd rather have two independent thinkers than one parrot pair |
| 02:48.08 | eightyeight | do you want to vote in an administration that has inner conflict? |
| 02:48.29 | elg | why do we have the house, senate, and 3 branches of government? |
| 02:49.05 | elg | as long as they are reasonable and can come to decisions, independent thought can only help |
| 02:49.10 | eightyeight | so a president can pass one thing while the vice presnts another? |
| 02:49.26 | elg | huh? |
| 02:49.33 | eightyeight | i agree with you, don't get me wrong |
| 02:49.58 | elg | obviously they can't be stubborn polar opposites, that wouldn't be good |
| 02:50.06 | eightyeight | independant thought is good, but i sensed feelings between biden and obama |
| 02:50.17 | elg | i haven't seen them together |
| 02:50.37 | elg | i didn't feel anything from this debate along those lines though |
| 02:50.44 | eightyeight | wasn't a catastrophe for palin, like many thought it would be |
| 02:50.58 | elg | maybe i'm projecting, but I felt something like that from palin for mccain, though on the surface of course it's all unison |
| 02:51.09 | elg | yeah, she didn't fall on her face by any measure |
| 02:51.12 | eightyeight | she held together fairly well |
| 02:51.51 | eightyeight | biden came through on foreign policy, as was expected |
| 02:52.53 | elg | palin did better than mccain, from where I sit |
| 02:53.40 | eightyeight | i'm giving it to her, only because she talked to the american people |
| 02:54.04 | eightyeight | biden came off to me as a little candesending |
| 02:54.30 | elg | i wouldn't say condescending but not common man, yeah |
| 02:54.36 | elg | not like palin |
| 02:54.54 | elg | who is straight out of the middle class, or almost so |
| 02:54.57 | eightyeight | i really didn't like the moderator |
| 02:55.03 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 02:55.13 | elg | at least she did some moderating. :) |
| 02:55.16 | eightyeight | biden seemed out of touch |
| 02:55.23 | elg | lehrer just sat back and let them talk talk |
| 02:55.40 | JoshH | she may be middle class, but her ticket is not the one with the middle class' |
| 02:55.47 | JoshH | s interests in mind |
| 02:56.35 | JoshH | it's weird how obama wants the middle class tax cuts, mccain wants the trickle down system, but mccain/palin supporters like that she is middle class anyway |
| 02:56.41 | eightyeight | obama will raise taxes. that is just what dems do. repubs increase oil prices |
| 02:56.47 | eightyeight | and go to war |
| 02:56.58 | unum | and just borrow money to pay for the war |
| 02:57.37 | eightyeight | either way, i didn't hear any econ reform from either party |
| 02:57.41 | unum | I don't like palin. she bugs me. it may be the accent |
| 02:57.48 | unum | or the fact that I'm a liberal |
| 02:57.50 | eightyeight | just talk talk talk |
| 02:58.05 | JoshH | she seemed like she just finished hundreds of hours of coaching and cram sessions |
| 02:58.05 | elg | :) |
| 02:58.11 | elg | i'm sure she did |
| 02:58.19 | eightyeight | heh |
| 02:58.23 | elg | i sensed a couple of places where she slipped into prepared speech |
| 02:58.29 | eightyeight | i knew she'd be spoon fed |
| 02:58.39 | elg | to do otherwise would be insane of course |
| 02:59.03 | JoshH | biden seemed to actually have a real grasp of what he was talking about |
| 02:59.10 | eightyeight | she had some sharp blows, wjich i thought were witty |
| 02:59.34 | eightyeight | yeah biden had confidence on his end |
| 02:59.36 | unum | but they weren't any different from the ones I heard last week |
| 03:00.23 | JoshH | i'm tired of blows and attacks |
| 03:00.25 | unum | not that biden really said anything new |
| 03:00.36 | eightyeight | the upcoming debates will be interesting |
| 03:01.03 | unum | we need someone to turn off their hearing aide again :) |
| 03:01.06 | JoshH | palin basically recited the lines from her index cards, and threw in some barbs |
| 03:01.23 | unum | JoshH: I bet those were on the index cards as well |
| 03:01.31 | elg | i think so |
| 03:01.37 | elg | most anyway |
| 03:01.54 | JoshH | she probably doesn't even know anything about maliki, but had to drop his name tonight to seem non-clueless |
| 03:02.06 | eightyeight | heh |
| 03:02.57 | JoshH | and i hate hearing about how we have to defend israel because they are so helpless |
| 03:03.10 | JoshH | israel could easily cream any other country in the middle east without our help |
| 03:03.43 | JoshH | it's not like iran really is going to wipe them off the map if we don't act tough |
| 03:04.45 | Sargun | We should use CN/CS gas in Iraq |
| 03:08.58 | *** join/#utah bonez46 (n=scott@75.145.57.253) |
| 03:09.44 | bonez46 | can I SAFELY disconnect a KVM connector, video, mouse and keyboard, while the machine is running or should I power it down before disconnecting those cables? |
| 03:09.58 | elg | how old? |
| 03:10.04 | elg | video no problem |
| 03:10.14 | bonez46 | it's an old machine, the connectors are ps2.. for key and mouse.. |
| 03:10.20 | elg | but how old? |
| 03:10.32 | bonez46 | how old is the machine? |
| 03:10.42 | bonez46 | 10 years... at least |
| 03:11.20 | bonez46 | it's running apache and exim4 for me...I don't need any graphical interaction with it.. but I have another machine that I DO need to see what's happening with it.. thus my query |
| 03:11.44 | bonez46 | this would free up the KVM for the other machine.. and I'd just ssh to the old box.. to check on it |
| 03:11.56 | elg | to just disconnect I think it would be fine |
| 03:12.07 | elg | but if it's just a mild inconvenience, why not reboot? |
| 03:12.22 | bonez46 | safer to reboot it, right? |
| 03:12.37 | elg | like wearing your seatbelt |
| 03:13.00 | bonez46 | I don't want to risk damaging it.. I'll reboot it.. the machine it will connect to is 6 or 7 year old compaq... I should power it down too.. |
| 03:13.08 | findlay | how does one get live sports information? |
| 03:13.11 | bonez46 | ok, just needed your input.. thanks Hans... |
| 03:13.27 | findlay | ibot: I want the information |
| 03:13.28 | ibot | You want the information? |
| 03:13.31 | findlay | yes |
| 03:13.36 | elg | findlay: 90.1 fm? |
| 03:14.07 | elg | the jock's radio station |
| 03:14.12 | findlay | elg: does that translate into an intarweb resource? |
| 03:15.38 | elg | yeah, http://kuer.org/ |
| 03:15.38 | brac | [kuer 90.1 pledge redirect page] |
| 03:15.43 | elg | it's just a front for espn |
| 03:16.28 | findlay | nevermind |
| 03:16.40 | findlay | I found http://sports.yahoo.com |
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| 03:50.11 | eightyeight | unum: https://penta.debconf.org/~joerg/attachments/33-measuring_etch_slides.pdf |
| 03:50.30 | eightyeight | pages 5, 6 and 7 are of good interest |
| 03:51.03 | eightyeight | page 9 shows comparisons with other operating systems |
| 04:17.07 | lakshmi | <PROTECTED> |
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| 06:04.30 | Tene | http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/political-parti.html |
| 06:14.43 | Sargun | slashdot.org |
| 06:16.38 | Tene | licd.com |
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| 09:14.40 | Tene | levi: http://www.parrotblog.org/2008/10/tracking-down-imcc-bug.html |
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| 12:13.27 | Tene | Mmm... graphviz... |
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| 15:28.32 | harleypig | ;alsdhg-230984htflksdfj |
| 15:28.51 | high_roller | my feelings exactly |
| 15:29.18 | tvc123 | and that my friends is a good password |
| 15:29.42 | harleypig | uh oh ... no one try that on any of my accounts ... :] |
| 15:30.40 | Jayce^ | the funny part is he typed that with only two head bangs on the keyboard.. |
| 15:31.53 | harleypig | three |
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| 15:55.26 | levi | Tene: Cool, that bit you added at the end makes it more easily comprehensible. |
| 16:03.01 | harleypig | someone talked about copying the directory structure but not the files here some time ago ... does anyone remember what I'm talking about? |
| 16:05.50 | harleypig | I was thinking it would be something like find basedir -type d -exec mkdir -p targetdir/{} \; |
| 16:06.02 | harleypig | but I need to strip off part of the basedir. |
| 16:06.25 | harleypig | err ... rather, I need to strip off the basedir |
| 16:07.10 | harleypig | also, I need to ignore a directory in basedir (since that's where I'm copying the structure) |
| 16:08.31 | harleypig | ah ... -prune basedir/ignoredir |
| 16:13.20 | harleypig | though ... I suppose I could just do find /var/www -type d -prune /var/www/html/profile -exec mkdir -p {} \; |
| 16:13.40 | tensai | here's a way to slip perl in so you can make all sorts of crazy modifications |
| 16:13.46 | tensai | find . -mindepth 1 -type d |perl -lnpe 's/^./targetdir/' |while read dir; do mkdir -p "${dir}"; done; |
| 16:13.48 | harleypig | s/-p /-p /var/www/html/profile/ |
| 16:15.35 | harleypig | tensai: *sigh* I didn't even think of using perl ... what am I becoming? |
| 16:16.04 | tensai | use shame; |
| 16:16.30 | harleypig | use shame(); |
| 16:16.51 | harleypig | I'll import what I need manually |
| 16:18.18 | goozbach | use shame qw( on_me so_stupid ); |
| 16:19.02 | harleypig | :] |
| 16:19.45 | elg | can perl deal with -print0? |
| 16:22.21 | tensai | probably somehow, but it doesn't need to. perl will read line by line regardless of spaces. |
| 16:25.50 | harleypig | elg: sure |
| 16:26.09 | harleypig | well, you have to write the code to handle it |
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| 16:43.50 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=vontrapp@vader.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:43.50 | ibot | steals vontrapp's parking sticker |
| 16:45.34 | vontrapp | http://jordy.gundy.org/ask-congress-to-stop-socialist-fascist-bailouts/ |
| 16:46.01 | harleypig | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7649876.stm |
| 16:46.01 | vontrapp | a nice summary of our looming fate |
| 16:46.07 | brac | [BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Boy fed zoo reptiles to crocodile] |
| 16:46.24 | levi | More like a hysterical rant, if you ask me. |
| 16:46.54 | vontrapp | levi: i'm curious what you have to say about that direct quote from the actual bill? |
| 16:47.13 | vontrapp | Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. |
| 16:47.26 | vontrapp | what the hell is that? |
| 16:47.28 | levi | Is that a quote from the Senate bill that passed or the original House bill? |
| 16:47.37 | JoshH | that was already zapped |
| 16:47.47 | levi | Not the one that was voted down, but the one that was initially proposed. |
| 16:47.48 | elg | 1but it's so sensational |
| 16:47.54 | JoshH | but ya, ridiculous that they even tried that |
| 16:48.03 | vontrapp | pardon, didn't know it was zapped |
| 16:48.10 | JoshH | you can't just expect to get 700B with no oversight at all |
| 16:48.23 | levi | It was zapped in the House bill. |
| 16:48.27 | vontrapp | i don't know why they can expect to get 700B at all! |
| 16:48.44 | levi | I'm not sure whether the Senate started from the original proposal or the final House version. |
| 16:49.41 | levi | I ignore hysterical rants and try to find real information to base my judgements on. I haven't got around to researching the Senate bill yet. |
| 16:49.41 | Jayce^ | technically they would be required by law to start from the house one |
| 16:49.56 | vontrapp | so i suppose you have read all 400+ pages and are sure there's not more atrocious blatant disregard for any constitutionality? |
| 16:50.00 | levi | OK, then that provision was definitely zapped. |
| 16:50.28 | levi | vontrapp: Your 'constitutionality' schtick is really tiresome. |
| 16:50.29 | JoshH | these days, pretty much everything could technically be considered unconstitutional |
| 16:50.51 | vontrapp | ok, so fine, call it what you will, are your sure there's not anything horribly wrong in that bill? |
| 16:50.56 | JoshH | but almost nobody cares about anything |
| 16:51.20 | vontrapp | levi: your disregard for the constitution is tiresome |
| 16:51.34 | levi | I hold the constitution in very high regard. |
| 16:52.06 | vontrapp | but anytime i try to say we should give it some credence, you say it's some constitutionaly 'schtick' |
| 16:52.51 | levi | By 'give it some credence' you mean 'interpret it the way I do'. |
| 16:52.51 | vontrapp | so levi, i'm asking, are you sure, in your interpretation of what woulud be in alignment with the constitution, which you say you hold in very high regard, are you sure there's nothing in this 400 page bill that's contradictory to those views? |
| 16:53.00 | vontrapp | yet you don't hesitate to support it blindly and fully |
| 16:53.14 | vontrapp | levi: i'm not asking you interpret it my way |
| 16:53.15 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oeXLRkJDBI then http://www.govtrack.us/special/econstimbill/changes.xpd |
| 16:53.30 | vontrapp | i'm asking if you know what's in the bill, and you agree with everything in there |
| 16:53.43 | levi | vontrapp: No, I don't know what's in the bill. Neither do you. |
| 16:53.53 | vontrapp | so w hy pass it? |
| 16:53.59 | levi | I'm not voting on it. |
| 16:54.12 | vontrapp | oh, because it SO FREAKING URGENT! OMG!! WE"RE ALL GOING TO DIE! |
| 16:54.26 | levi | My knowledge of what's in it has no bearing on anything. |
| 16:54.44 | vontrapp | well then call your congressman and tell him vote no |
| 16:54.49 | levi | Why do you insist that it's unconstitutional when *you* don't know what's in it? |
| 16:54.53 | elg | because you know better than he |
| 16:55.06 | elg | since you read all 400+ pages and participated in days of debate over it |
| 16:55.08 | levi | Why don't I let my congressman do his job and not give him my uninformed opinions? |
| 16:55.09 | JoshH | all of utah's delegation is in favor, and i doubt they will listen if you try to change their mind |
| 16:55.14 | vontrapp | because there's no way they know what's in it either! |
| 16:55.22 | elg | well, it's their *job* |
| 16:55.26 | elg | that's why we elect them |
| 16:55.29 | vontrapp | which they don't *do* |
| 16:55.32 | levi | vontrapp: You can't know that. |
| 16:55.49 | vontrapp | levi: i suppose you can read and debate 400 pages of legalese in just two days?? |
| 16:56.03 | elg | the economists that helped draft it - it's their job to understand the economy |
| 16:56.10 | vontrapp | whatever |
| 16:56.30 | levi | vontrapp: These people have aides and whatnot to help them. |
| 16:56.31 | vontrapp | there's economists that i hold in much higher regard that say this is a bad bill |
| 16:56.32 | elg | would you have the masses tell congress how to vote on some encryption issue? |
| 16:56.46 | vontrapp | and bush, and mccain, and obama, they're the ones saying we need this, and pelosi |
| 16:56.51 | vontrapp | all people i strongly disagree with |
| 16:57.34 | vontrapp | elg: i do know some things about economics, and i know that 700B easy money is not going to solve anything |
| 16:57.39 | elg | i wish we knew whether the plan would work, just as i wish we knew whether sitting back and doing nothing would work. we don't, we have to rely on the best judgement of the people who know more about it than us. we can tell them our concerns so they can take them into account |
| 16:57.58 | elg | call your congressman and tell him you are concerned about your money going to bail out irresponsible CEOs |
| 16:58.07 | elg | call him and tell him he's a jerkface |
| 16:58.11 | elg | don't vote for him |
| 16:58.14 | elg | but let them do their jobs |
| 16:58.24 | vontrapp | yeah, well fun for me, but he doesn't listen, his term is ending and he doesn't care |
| 16:58.29 | Jayce^ | well, our one congressman that *did* vote for it has already been voted out of office |
| 16:58.39 | Jayce^ | it's the senators that need out :) |
| 16:58.41 | vontrapp | i already voted against him, he's just riding it out now |
| 16:59.11 | vontrapp | elg: we don't know what will work either way |
| 16:59.16 | elg | that's the problem with a democracy. other people participate |
| 16:59.21 | elg | if only it were your dictatorship ;-) |
| 16:59.26 | vontrapp | so give the taxpayers the benefit of the doubt and don't risk their money |
| 16:59.31 | Jayce^ | we're not either :) |
| 16:59.43 | elg | republic, whatever |
| 16:59.49 | Jayce^ | hehe |
| 17:00.07 | elg | if we were a full democracy we'd probably have rejected this plan. maybe the stock market would have crashed by now |
| 17:00.11 | elg | maybe it wouldn't have |
| 17:00.16 | elg | where'd I put my crystal ball? |
| 17:00.26 | vontrapp | geez, i can't give any opinions here without being labeled as the sole lunatic that can't get his way |
| 17:00.37 | elg | you're not alone |
| 17:00.46 | elg | we pick on all of us |
| 17:00.56 | elg | except me. nobody picks on me |
| 17:01.03 | elg | ~rlart |
| 17:01.04 | ibot | flings poo at fungus |
| 17:01.05 | levi | Poor, picked on vontrapp. |
| 17:01.08 | levi | elg: You suck. |
| 17:01.13 | vontrapp | it _was_ rejected, and the stock market _rebounded_ |
| 17:01.14 | levi | picks on elg. |
| 17:01.28 | elg | vontrapp: the stock market plunged when it was rejected |
| 17:01.35 | vontrapp | but the news just says the only reason it rebounded was because 'they are negotiating to get something passed' |
| 17:01.35 | elg | until it was hopeful that it might pass on the next try |
| 17:01.42 | vontrapp | bull |
| 17:01.45 | vontrapp | i don't buy that for a second |
| 17:01.49 | elg | whatever. graphs don't lie |
| 17:01.59 | levi | vontrapp: So, you ignore everything that conflicts with your worldview? |
| 17:02.06 | vontrapp | elg: actually, graphs do lie |
| 17:02.08 | vontrapp | all the time |
| 17:02.12 | fugue88 | Graphs don't tell why. |
| 17:02.17 | vontrapp | fugue88: exactly |
| 17:02.22 | levi | Graphs don't like, people lie with graphs. |
| 17:02.46 | fugue88 | Graphs don't lie, people with mustaches lie. |
| 17:02.48 | vontrapp | maybe, just maybe, it was rejected, so people with vested interest in the passing bailed out |
| 17:03.03 | vontrapp | then, when prices plunged, smart people with interest in other things bought |
| 17:03.04 | vontrapp | just maybe |
| 17:03.07 | levi | Wow, nice conspiracy theory. |
| 17:03.07 | vontrapp | but i'm just crazy |
| 17:03.23 | vontrapp | levi: how is that conspiracy? |
| 17:03.29 | vontrapp | people speculate |
| 17:03.30 | elg | graphs don't lie. interpretations of graphs lie. bad axes lie. bad data lies |
| 17:03.36 | vontrapp | why can't people speculate on a bill pasing? |
| 17:03.36 | elg | bad perspectives lie |
| 17:03.39 | elg | but graphs are graphs |
| 17:03.55 | vontrapp | well, as fugue88 said, the graph says it went down, then up |
| 17:04.11 | vontrapp | but the graph _doesn't_ say it went up because of hopefullness for a successful second pass |
| 17:04.20 | elg | the logical conclusion is that stock was reacting to events |
| 17:04.28 | vontrapp | correlation does not imply causality |
| 17:04.28 | mrpull | argh, the Friday unsolicited phone call dance has begun. |
| 17:04.35 | elg | like the failure of the bill, and the speculation that another bill was coming down the pipeline |
| 17:04.49 | elg | correlation does not imply non-causality |
| 17:05.19 | vontrapp | elg: i would bet you _anytime_ a stock plunged so sharply, people would buy the next day |
| 17:05.30 | vontrapp | you don't need a reason for the rebound, rebounds happen all on their own |
| 17:06.03 | vontrapp | heck, my in laws have been saying for weeks "buy stocks now! they're really low!" |
| 17:06.07 | vontrapp | that's how markets work! |
| 17:06.33 | vontrapp | the lower they are, the more people buy, they self-stabilize |
| 17:06.35 | elg | so the interviews with stock brokers, investment houses, etc. in which they are confident of the reasons that are affecting their actions and the actions of their peers...? |
| 17:06.54 | vontrapp | stock brokers and investment houses are a fraction of the market |
| 17:07.08 | levi | The crisis is not in the stock market, it's in the credit market. You can't see it just by looking at the stock market in general. |
| 17:07.12 | elg | yeah, and water is a fraction of my body |
| 17:07.34 | vontrapp | the credit crisis involves bad mortgages |
| 17:07.44 | vontrapp | get rid of the bad mortgages, end of crisis |
| 17:07.52 | levi | The credit crisis involves a LOT more than bad mortgages now. |
| 17:08.08 | vontrapp | but the bad mortgages are still the root |
| 17:08.20 | fugue88 | They're voting right now, for the next 15 minutes. |
| 17:08.38 | vontrapp | i just don't buy that if we don't act, things will be soooo incredibly horrible you could just never imagine |
| 17:08.40 | elg | participates in the cspan ddos |
| 17:08.46 | fugue88 | ddos? |
| 17:08.56 | vontrapp | distributed denail of service |
| 17:09.00 | fugue88 | ha!! |
| 17:09.11 | elg | on monday it was down |
| 17:09.16 | elg | looks like they learned their lesson |
| 17:09.28 | vontrapp | link? |
| 17:09.28 | Sargun_Screen | I'm surprised that there haven't been any divide by zero errors on the stock market |
| 17:09.32 | fugue88 | Yeah, house.gov was having problems Wednesday night as well. |
| 17:10.03 | Sargun_Screen | that's because they are incompetent |
| 17:10.06 | fugue88 | Sounds like 218 votes needed, and the bill has 274 cosponsors. |
| 17:10.54 | levi | http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/253853/financial_and_corporate_system_is_in_cardiac_arrest_the_risk_of_the_mother_of_all_bank_runs |
| 17:11.19 | vontrapp | well, if we were on sound economic principles we would have bank runs |
| 17:11.31 | vontrapp | all this fractional reserve, perpetual debt |
| 17:11.32 | fugue88 | Or no private banks. |
| 17:11.36 | vontrapp | and now we want 700B more debt |
| 17:11.41 | vontrapp | whoopee!! |
| 17:12.10 | vontrapp | or just laws that say private banks need to have all deposits ON HAND |
| 17:12.22 | vontrapp | i.e. no fractional reserve |
| 17:12.58 | elg | that's ridiculous |
| 17:13.07 | fugue88 | We should quit calling it "fractional reserve." |
| 17:13.14 | vontrapp | oh really? having the money you say you have is rediculous? |
| 17:13.21 | elg | you haven't finished econ110 apparently |
| 17:13.51 | fugue88 | elg, your econ110 class must have been sponsored by the banks. |
| 17:14.01 | elg | :) |
| 17:14.17 | elg | fwiw my econ teacher was disgusted with both parties |
| 17:14.33 | tensai | who in their right mind isn't? |
| 17:14.35 | vontrapp | i concede that banks need investment money |
| 17:14.57 | fugue88 | Not if they're a public entity. |
| 17:15.00 | vontrapp | but then have seperate accounts for that investment money, where the despositor knows it's being invested, and the risk is reflected somehow |
| 17:15.40 | elg | the whole point of banks is so that they can lend out the money and make interest |
| 17:15.41 | vontrapp | oh, like mutual funds! |
| 17:15.49 | vontrapp | gee, the market already has an answer, surprise, that |
| 17:16.06 | levi | http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/business/02crisis.html |
| 17:16.09 | elg | what bank in its right mind would just sit on your money, spending resources to keep it safe, paying you interest, just so that it can have your money in its vault? |
| 17:16.11 | brac | [The Reckoning - As Credit Crisis Spiraled, Alarm Led to Action - Series - NYTimes.com] |
| 17:16.15 | elg | that's not the business model of a bank |
| 17:16.20 | vontrapp | they're called bank fees |
| 17:16.22 | elg | that's why you get interest |
| 17:16.36 | elg | whatever, even with ridiculous bank fees that exist they would not come close to covering expenses |
| 17:16.40 | elg | let alone turning a profit |
| 17:17.08 | vontrapp | then don't call it a savings account, call it an investment account |
| 17:17.14 | elg | how much would you have to pay one person to sit and guard your money 24/7 with a shotgun? a lot more than you or even a few dozen people's bank fees |
| 17:17.35 | vontrapp | um, that's why banks have thousands of customers |
| 17:17.52 | elg | how many customers per building? how many employees per customer? |
| 17:18.03 | elg | how many bank fees to pay the salary of a dozen bank employees per branch? |
| 17:18.24 | elg | the market would eradicate any banks with that business plan in a hurry |
| 17:18.35 | vontrapp | well, grain stores seem to do just fine with the requirement all grain deposits remain on hand |
| 17:19.14 | elg | what does grain have to do with anything? |
| 17:19.23 | vontrapp | it's a store of wealth, just like money |
| 17:19.30 | elg | do they pay interest on grain? or do they charge you to store your grain there? |
| 17:19.32 | levi | elg: It's yellow, like gold! |
| 17:19.35 | Sargun_Screen | elg: 2 |
| 17:20.02 | vontrapp | they store it, no interest |
| 17:20.13 | levi | For a price. |
| 17:20.23 | elg | maybe they just like the smell of grain |
| 17:20.29 | vontrapp | i have 150lb of grain in lehi roller mills |
| 17:20.30 | vontrapp | no fees |
| 17:21.30 | vontrapp | just bought it at a slightly higher price, i'm sure |
| 17:21.30 | fugue88 | Current vote count: 175 for, 93 against. |
| 17:21.30 | elg | so cspan hates me |
| 17:21.36 | vontrapp | can't find the vote count |
| 17:21.38 | elg | their .asx files are screwed up. they are wmp-tied |
| 17:21.39 | fugue88 | Are you trying for the video feed? |
| 17:21.45 | fugue88 | I'm on the audio-only feed. |
| 17:21.51 | elg | ah, i'll try that |
| 17:22.08 | fugue88 | http://play.rbn.com/play.asx?url=cspan/cspan/wmlive/cspan4db.asf&proto=mms?mswmext=.asx |
| 17:22.12 | fugue88 | Works on Linux. |
| 17:22.14 | fugue88 | For me. |
| 17:23.10 | elg | hmm. not here |
| 17:23.29 | fugue88 | I'm using VLC if that matters. |
| 17:23.31 | Sargun_Screen | rbn = russian businesss network? |
| 17:23.42 | levi | BTW, the nytimes.com article gives an overview of the credit crisis and bank failures, and what the real problems facing the credit market right now are. |
| 17:24.51 | levi | http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/01/business/20081002-crisis-graphic.html |
| 17:24.52 | brac | [How the Credit Crisis Unfolded - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com] |
| 17:25.03 | levi | This is an interesting one, too. |
| 17:25.06 | elg | ah, got it |
| 17:25.29 | levi | But you can feel free to ignore it if it doesn't match your opinion of what happened. |
| 17:26.10 | vontrapp | haha, the wealth didn't 'evaporate' |
| 17:26.13 | vontrapp | it reallocated |
| 17:26.42 | levi | No, it 'evaporated' in the writing down of asset values. |
| 17:27.01 | vontrapp | nope, sorry, wealth is wealth |
| 17:27.04 | vontrapp | it doesn't evaporate |
| 17:27.09 | levi | rolls eyes |
| 17:27.14 | vontrapp | wealth is substance |
| 17:27.20 | elg | dirt is wealth |
| 17:27.21 | vontrapp | if it's not, it wasn't wealth in the first place |
| 17:27.23 | *** join/#utah stuporglue1 (n=stuporgl@rs-69-169-135-235-0003.broadweave.net) |
| 17:27.29 | vontrapp | it was a lie |
| 17:27.39 | levi | In vontrapp's perfect world, sure. |
| 17:27.47 | levi | That's not the world we live in, though. |
| 17:27.52 | vontrapp | well i'm sure your world is so perfect, levi |
| 17:27.55 | levi | I'm afraid you're going to have to come to terms with that sometime. |
| 17:28.04 | levi | My world kind of sucks, but at least it's real. |
| 17:28.25 | fugue88 | 263, 171, motion adopted |
| 17:28.34 | fugue88 | 263 for, 171 against |
| 17:28.34 | vontrapp | no thanks, i'll just be smart with my wealth and not lose it |
| 17:28.48 | vontrapp | i just won't reallocate it to greedy mortgage brokers |
| 17:29.10 | vontrapp | damn |
| 17:29.23 | vontrapp | alas, i can't do anything about government TAKING my wealth |
| 17:30.31 | levi | Big bad government, taking vontrapp's wealth. |
| 17:30.39 | levi | It's highway robbery! |
| 17:30.58 | vontrapp | well, in levis perfect world, government is just a kind big brother, taking good care of us! |
| 17:31.00 | stuporglue1 | I need to buy a 802.11g wireless card today, in Provo. Is Best Buy my best bet these days? Working with Linux would be great, but I'd settle for working through ndiswrapper. |
| 17:31.02 | fugue88 | Aye, $700B in new debt added to a ~12T money supply = instant 5.8% devaluation your money. |
| 17:31.22 | fugue88 | For some def of "instant." |
| 17:31.25 | vontrapp | levi: it is highway robbery |
| 17:31.37 | levi | vontrapp: Only if you subscribe to libertarian logic. |
| 17:31.38 | vontrapp | going straight to the incompetent CEOs |
| 17:31.54 | vontrapp | and it's only not if you subscribe to neocon, fascist socialism |
| 17:32.10 | levi | Wow, can you throw any more scare words in there? |
| 17:32.14 | fozzmoo | is done with part 1 of RHCE exam. |
| 17:32.19 | levi | Why don't you call me a communist, too? |
| 17:32.20 | fugue88 | levi, libertarian? |
| 17:32.39 | levi | fugue88: libertarian logic equates income tax to armed robbery. |
| 17:32.40 | vontrapp | ok levi you are a communist |
| 17:32.45 | goozbach | 100% fozz? good job |
| 17:32.52 | levi | vontrapp: How about a nazi? |
| 17:32.54 | fozzmoo | Thanks. |
| 17:32.55 | goozbach | shame it took you 45min :) |
| 17:32.57 | vontrapp | nah |
| 17:33.21 | fugue88 | levi, I know. That was in response to "Wow, can you throw any more scare words in there?" |
| 17:33.24 | fozzmoo | goozbach: I could have gone faster, but I checked all my work. |
| 17:33.31 | goozbach | just kidding man |
| 17:33.33 | levi | C'mon, there are plenty more scary labels you could put on me. |
| 17:33.33 | fugue88 | Refering to you're "libertarian logic" comment. |
| 17:33.40 | vontrapp | libertarian does seem to scare levi a lot |
| 17:33.43 | fozzmoo | levi's not a communist, fascist, or anything like that. |
| 17:33.47 | fugue88 | Labels are labels, for both sides. |
| 17:33.49 | JoshH | he's a terrorist |
| 17:33.55 | fozzmoo | He's a non-ideologist. :) |
| 17:33.57 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@174-145-129-42.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 17:33.57 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:33.58 | goozbach | enjoy your lunch, relax, and be prepared to carefully read the instructions for the next part |
| 17:34.02 | levi | Ooh, there's a good one. I'm an economic terrorist! |
| 17:34.15 | elg | put him on the no-fly list! |
| 17:34.15 | fozzmoo | (and he's proud of it, I think.) |
| 17:34.26 | Jayce^ | nah, that's Barney Frank |
| 17:34.29 | vontrapp | levi: just pointing out i'm not the only one with a worldview |
| 17:34.39 | Jayce^ | the alpha and omega of the credit crunch :) |
| 17:34.48 | levi | vontrapp: I don't think you've accurately portrayed mine. |
| 17:34.55 | levi | Though of course I do have one. |
| 17:34.58 | vontrapp | well you haven't accurately portrayed mine |
| 17:35.00 | neybar | starts reading the back logs |
| 17:36.05 | levi | vontrapp: No, I've been mocking yours, because it's more fun than trying to do the impossible of convincing you you're wrong, and you're so easily baited. |
| 17:36.54 | vontrapp | i'm sorry, i didn't mean to mock you back |
| 17:37.08 | levi | I feel a little bad about it, but it was a response to frustration caused by my vehement disagreement with you. |
| 17:37.20 | *** join/#utah lukfugl (n=lukfugl@lukfugl.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 17:37.31 | vontrapp | ~pickle lukfugl |
| 17:37.32 | ibot | ACTION crams lukfugl in a barrel, adds some brine and seasoning, and lets lukfugl sit for a long while in a dark room until lukfugl is ripe |
| 17:37.41 | lukfugl | -lart vontrapp |
| 17:37.42 | brac | signs vontrapp up for the Iowa State Ferret Legging Championship |
| 17:37.44 | levi | vontrapp: I haven't taken any offense at anything you've said about me. No need to apologize. |
| 17:38.27 | elg | ~lart lukfugl |
| 17:38.27 | ibot | drops a humongous exploding nuke on lukfugl |
| 17:38.39 | vontrapp | so what was the point of that graph you linked earlier, levi? |
| 17:38.47 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: how you feeling for section 2? |
| 17:38.59 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: Like this is all long overdue. |
| 17:39.02 | levi | vontrapp: It went along nicely with the story I linked to right before it. |
| 17:39.14 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: I shoudl have pursued this certification 8 years ago. |
| 17:39.16 | vontrapp | the cardiac arrest? |
| 17:39.17 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: ahh. so, you better get 100% then |
| 17:39.23 | vontrapp | there's a nice scare term |
| 17:39.33 | levi | vontrapp: No, the other one from nytimes. |
| 17:39.41 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: who's the exam proctor? |
| 17:39.45 | *** part/#utah stuporglue1 (n=stuporgl@rs-69-169-135-235-0003.broadweave.net) |
| 17:40.07 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: Some big guy. Don't know him. |
| 17:40.12 | fozzmoo | It's not GL. |
| 17:40.19 | eightyeight | ladislav? |
| 17:40.29 | vontrapp | the only nytimes link i see _is_ the graphic |
| 17:40.36 | eightyeight | or joe kirby/ |
| 17:40.41 | eightyeight | s/\//?/ |
| 17:40.47 | elg | -chat lukfugl went |
| 17:40.47 | brac | lukfugl went |
| 17:40.55 | elg | -chat the economy |
| 17:40.55 | brac | the economy more. |
| 17:41.10 | vontrapp | -chat financial bailout |
| 17:41.11 | brac | financial bailout |
| 17:41.15 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: I think he said his name is "Bo." |
| 17:41.16 | levi | vontrapp: Look back farther. Or just follow this repaste: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/business/02crisis.html |
| 17:41.24 | brac | [The Reckoning - As Credit Crisis Spiraled, Alarm Led to Action - Series - NYTimes.com] |
| 17:41.37 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: ahh, rockstar |
| 17:41.48 | fozzmoo | rockstar, eh? |
| 17:42.08 | eightyeight | i think that's him. rh employee. never met him, but seen him on the mailing lists |
| 17:42.10 | elg | levi: i read that yesterday. pretty good article |
| 17:42.21 | eightyeight | ask for his business card. he has it on there, if it's him |
| 17:42.38 | fozzmoo | ok |
| 17:42.48 | eightyeight | bo rothwell? |
| 17:42.55 | fozzmoo | I don't remember his last name. |
| 17:42.58 | fozzmoo | Just remember "Bo." |
| 17:43.09 | eightyeight | actually. i may be mixing him up with someone else |
| 17:43.35 | levi | elg: Yeah, I thought it did a pretty good job of portraying the part of what's happening that's been going on behind the scenes. |
| 17:43.43 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: anyway, good luck |
| 17:43.49 | fozzmoo | thx |
| 17:45.19 | levi | Here's an unrelated bit of craziness: http://theecakescraps.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/pure-profit-a-look-at-swoop/ |
| 17:45.27 | vontrapp | the only arguments i ever hear for the bailout are just 'panick' and 'fear' and all that |
| 17:45.34 | vontrapp | not good things to be basing decisions on |
| 17:45.48 | levi | vontrapp: Did you read the article? |
| 17:45.48 | vontrapp | same thing in that NYT piece |
| 17:45.50 | vontrapp | ya |
| 17:45.55 | vontrapp | most of it |
| 17:46.04 | lukfugl | swoopo scares me |
| 17:46.15 | levi | Panic and fear are what motivate most decisions. People are not really very rational. |
| 17:46.16 | lukfugl | we were talking about it at work a few days back |
| 17:46.55 | vontrapp | that doesn't make it a good argument for the bailout |
| 17:47.10 | vontrapp | it makes the bailout pass, obviously, doesn't make it good |
| 17:47.30 | levi | It's not an argument for the bailout, it's a description of why the credit market got stuck. |
| 17:47.44 | vontrapp | so what's the argument for the bailout? |
| 17:48.12 | vontrapp | more fear, that if we don't bailout, we fear there will be more fear and panick, so we panick and bail out |
| 17:48.23 | vontrapp | that's what it comes down to |
| 17:49.05 | elg | sounds like an argument to not oil your engine because friction is irrational |
| 17:49.17 | vontrapp | yeah, cuase friction is irrational |
| 17:49.19 | vontrapp | :p |
| 17:49.31 | levi | One can make a rational analysis of other people's fear-based behavior. |
| 17:49.55 | levi | Reacting to people's fear does not have to be irrational. |
| 17:50.15 | elg | people are fear-driven much of the time. fact. you can act rationally based on the statistical behavior of humans. no matter how irrational they are individually, it's actually quite predictable |
| 17:50.23 | fozzmoo | A guy talking to me here at this training facility said he heard of a local race where someone legally changed their name to "None Of The Above" |
| 17:50.23 | levi | Reacting to the consequences of panic behavior does not have to be irrational. |
| 17:50.44 | elg | haha |
| 17:50.45 | fozzmoo | Got a lot of votes, that guy. |
| 17:50.45 | vontrapp | elg: exactly, and that is exactly what free markets are built on |
| 17:50.48 | levi | fozzmoo: The ultimate political cheap'n'dirty trick! |
| 17:50.50 | elg | maybe I can change it to N/A |
| 17:51.03 | vontrapp | it's only when you interfere with the market and the participants self interest that you cause problems |
| 17:51.18 | elg | if only it were so simple |
| 17:51.22 | fozzmoo | At this point, I don't really care who wins the presidential election. I just want most of the people in congress out. |
| 17:51.29 | elg | we'd have figured it out years ago and computers would be running things |
| 17:51.29 | levi | vontrapp: The 'only' bit there is what gets me about free-marketers. |
| 17:51.39 | vontrapp | well, ok |
| 17:51.45 | vontrapp | but interfering does cause problems |
| 17:52.00 | levi | The undying faith that if only regulation disappeared, everything would work out for the best. |
| 17:52.01 | vontrapp | and the only there was referring to that's why we have this crisis, is because of past interference |
| 17:52.03 | elg | and sometimes not interfering causes problems |
| 17:52.27 | elg | and sometimes ideals must be sacrificed as a sort of low-pass filter to keep the dips from dipping as low |
| 17:52.28 | vontrapp | i can tell you that this 700B isn't going to change anyones behaviour |
| 17:52.35 | levi | There's no real evidence that free markets really work the way they say they do. |
| 17:52.37 | vontrapp | people are still going to be nervous |
| 17:53.04 | vontrapp | does 700B sound like a low pass filter? |
| 17:53.12 | levi | Since markets have never been left completely free for long enough to say. |
| 17:53.15 | vontrapp | i'm not against regulation |
| 17:53.27 | vontrapp | i'm against bolstering things that shouldn't succeed in the first place |
| 17:53.43 | vontrapp | levi: so how about we try it for once? |
| 17:53.43 | levi | Like borrowing money? |
| 17:53.51 | levi | vontrapp: No thanks. |
| 17:54.03 | vontrapp | because socialism is "safer" |
| 17:54.05 | elg | if spending 700B keeps the market from losing N billion before rebounding (where N >> 700) |
| 17:54.07 | elg | then yes |
| 17:54.17 | vontrapp | but we don't know that |
| 17:54.20 | vontrapp | that's pure conjecture |
| 17:54.24 | elg | and it might keep us from peaking as high next time, conceivably. that's how low pass filters work |
| 17:54.29 | elg | yeah, pity about not knowing the future |
| 17:54.41 | elg | luckily economists spend a lot of time thinking about these things |
| 17:54.59 | vontrapp | so, not knowing the future, and not knowing what will happen either way, and you've got two choices, force people to take a risk, or let people take a risk |
| 17:55.07 | levi | vontrapp: Because I don't think the preconditions that the free market theories depend on can be sufficiently met. |
| 17:55.07 | vontrapp | i definately prefer the latter, as a matter of principle |
| 17:55.08 | jsmith | is just glad we don't get all the gov't we pay for |
| 17:55.38 | levi | vontrapp: You don't know that unfettered free markets work better than our current system. That's pure conjecture. |
| 17:55.49 | vontrapp | yeah, so err on the side of freedom |
| 17:55.51 | vontrapp | that's what i say |
| 17:55.59 | elg | sure |
| 17:56.16 | elg | but sometimes, you have to step in and keep your kid from falling off a cliff |
| 17:56.17 | vontrapp | 700B tax dollars is the antithesis of freedom |
| 17:56.27 | vontrapp | but it's not a cliff |
| 17:56.31 | vontrapp | it's a scraped knee |
| 17:56.33 | elg | so says you |
| 17:56.42 | vontrapp | well you don't know any better than me |
| 17:56.53 | levi | vontrapp: How do you know he doesn't? |
| 17:56.54 | vontrapp | so again, both of us clueless, err on the side of freedom |
| 17:57.02 | vontrapp | how does he know i don't? |
| 17:57.37 | vontrapp | levi: you're arguments are so one sided |
| 17:57.43 | levi | vontrapp: And so are yours. |
| 17:57.56 | vontrapp | no, i'm taking both sides, and saying err on the side of freedom |
| 17:58.39 | vontrapp | if everything freezed up, and no-one could buy a house for 2 years, i still don't think that would be the end of the world |
| 17:58.43 | levi | I agree in principle, if the odds are really even. |
| 17:59.03 | levi | But just because your or I don't know how to calculate the odds doesn't mean they can't be. |
| 17:59.09 | vontrapp | and i still usurping 700B into socialist ideals is wrong and worse |
| 17:59.17 | levi | This isn't about buying houses. |
| 17:59.26 | levi | This is about starting businesses, paying paychecks, etc. |
| 17:59.56 | vontrapp | do you really think STIHL incorperated is going to stop lending my business credit on inventory just because some bad mortgages defaulted? |
| 18:00.08 | vontrapp | *incorporated |
| 18:00.15 | elg | i'm clueless |
| 18:00.21 | vontrapp | exactly |
| 18:00.22 | elg | which is why i defer to what the economists are saying |
| 18:00.26 | levi | vontrapp: Did you not read the article that talked about the credit freeze? |
| 18:00.28 | tensai | levi: can you explain the payroll bit? I keep hearing that but I don't understand why payroll is related to credit. who pays their employees based on loans? |
| 18:00.39 | lukfugl | vontrapp: that exact thing (with lender and lendee genericized) is already happening |
| 18:00.51 | elg | small business often takes out loans for capital to expand stuff |
| 18:00.53 | levi | tensai: Apparently lots of people do. It probably depends on how your cashflow works. |
| 18:00.54 | elg | they have to pay their loans |
| 18:01.03 | neybar | I'm not sure that I'm really in favor of this particular bailout and I think it should be rewritten. As I understand it though the bailout isn't about helping consumer credit, it is about restarting business credit |
| 18:01.05 | vontrapp | so they'll just have to forgoe expanding until the crisis passes |
| 18:01.10 | vontrapp | that's the healthiest thing to do |
| 18:01.12 | elg | if income is down, you might not have enough cash to go around |
| 18:01.16 | elg | but next week you might have a boon |
| 18:01.19 | vontrapp | pretending all is fine and putting 700B bandaid is a bad thing |
| 18:01.22 | elg | so you might have lots of microloans. |
| 18:01.34 | elg | nobody's pretending all is fine |
| 18:01.35 | levi | Sometimes businesses have to sink all their liquid capital into illiquid stuff, and then need some liquidity for paychecks. |
| 18:01.37 | tensai | elg: that sounds like a precarious way to run a business |
| 18:01.44 | elg | sure |
| 18:01.51 | elg | running a business is often precarious |
| 18:02.06 | elg | expanding to where you make the big bucks usually involves a lot of risk, including running precariously |
| 18:02.07 | levi | Running a business is precarious more often than not. |
| 18:02.16 | tensai | yeah I guess that's true |
| 18:02.23 | lukfugl | note that I'm not a fan of the bill that was just passed. but something did need to be done; I was just hoping it sould take a better form |
| 18:02.28 | levi | Capitalism is all about taking risks. |
| 18:02.32 | lukfugl | s/sould/could |
| 18:02.39 | elg | staying mom & pop and safe is also an option in some cases, though eventually fox books is going to move in and ... |
| 18:02.43 | vontrapp | i would rather NOTHING been done than this bill |
| 18:02.51 | tensai | so are these payroll loans a rare occurance at a company or are they more regular? |
| 18:03.04 | elg | that i don't know |
| 18:03.17 | tensai | elg: I would close shop before I let tom hanks kiss me, that's for sure |
| 18:03.20 | elg | obviously they would have to be able to pay it off more often than not |
| 18:03.27 | elg | :) |
| 18:03.33 | elg | or else they'd eventually go under |
| 18:04.01 | elg | what saddens me is all the pork that got on there and how that helped it pass |
| 18:04.08 | neybar | tensai: it's not just about payroll checks, it's about getting a loan to buy new equipment to expand. |
| 18:04.18 | vontrapp | so instead of a bad 700B we got a worse 1T |
| 18:04.18 | levi | elg: Yeah, that made me sad, too. |
| 18:04.21 | elg | like it saddens me that my car leaks oil |
| 18:04.24 | elg | needs fixing |
| 18:04.30 | tensai | neybar: that part I understand. just didn't see how payroll fit into it. |
| 18:04.50 | levi | Or getting a loan to start a business. |
| 18:04.59 | *** join/#utah zzzirk (n=lzirkel@c-67-177-13-115.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:05.10 | tensai | elg: mcgyver fixed his leaky radiator with an egg white. try that out on your engine. |
| 18:05.11 | elg | now if only zzzirk was here |
| 18:05.21 | elg | :) |
| 18:05.24 | elg | ~egg tensai |
| 18:05.29 | vontrapp | would it be the worst thing in the world if RIGHT NOW we couldn't get some loans? you can always wait and get loans later, when the market is better |
| 18:05.50 | elg | the economy has this thing called inertia |
| 18:05.51 | vontrapp | instead, we're just going to keep on hading out loans now at artificially low rates, and things are just going to get worse |
| 18:06.01 | levi | vontrapp: Sometimes you can't wait and get a loan later, because you have to pay for something *now*. |
| 18:06.14 | vontrapp | well then sucks to be you |
| 18:06.27 | vontrapp | shouldn't have made commitments you coudln't keep |
| 18:06.29 | lukfugl | vontrapp: in an ideal world yes. but do you know how many small businesses that would ruin? how many medium business would have to do lay-offs? what would happen to unemployment? |
| 18:06.30 | tensai | e.g. the Doohickey 3000 just died, the business is sunk without it and we need $200k to buy a new one |
| 18:06.31 | levi | And if you happen to be a big business, you go bankrupt and all your employees have to find jobs. |
| 18:06.34 | zzzirk | dances around |
| 18:06.34 | lukfugl | and the cascade starts... |
| 18:06.57 | neybar | vontrapp: what if that "sucks to be you moment" is the moment that your business goes under and you let go of all your employees? |
| 18:07.04 | fugue88 | There are good reasons for loans, likes emergencies. |
| 18:07.07 | levi | neybar: Then it sucks to be them. |
| 18:07.10 | fugue88 | s/likes/like/ |
| 18:07.17 | vontrapp | guess what, bussinesses go under |
| 18:07.19 | vontrapp | it happens! |
| 18:07.20 | fugue88 | That was cool... |
| 18:07.25 | vontrapp | if it happens to me, then sucks to be me! |
| 18:07.34 | vontrapp | i'm not going to ask every american to bail me out! |
| 18:07.36 | elg | what if one of those people is your grandmother-in-law, and now you have to take care of her |
| 18:07.45 | lukfugl | vontrapp: yes, but when a significant portion of businesses go under at once, there are serious repercussions |
| 18:07.46 | vontrapp | then i take care of her |
| 18:07.52 | neybar | businesses fail, and start all the time sure, but what if you have a really great idea, but you need a little cash to keep going? |
| 18:07.56 | vontrapp | lukfugl: so we learn from it |
| 18:07.56 | neybar | or a lot of cash? |
| 18:08.16 | elg | it's inertia man |
| 18:08.17 | vontrapp | neybar: then convince someone it's a good idea |
| 18:08.34 | elg | is it easier to keep a satellite in orbit (provided you have the means to do that handy on the satellite) or to launch another one? |
| 18:08.50 | vontrapp | downward inertia can't go forever, just like we can't keep the upward inertia going forever, no matter how much 700B we throw at the problem |
| 18:08.54 | neybar | vontrapp: normally that's exactly what you would do, so what happens when banks stop lending? |
| 18:08.55 | lukfugl | vontrapp: I'm not saying the market doesn't need to go through a correct, nor that we should avoid all the pain. I don't like the bill that just passed. but with NOTHING done, the negative feedback loop would be much stronger than you're thinking |
| 18:09.22 | Sargun_Screen | lukfugl: its useless arguing in ehre |
| 18:09.24 | Sargun_Screen | here |
| 18:09.31 | vontrapp | well isn't that why the prophets tell us to be prepared? out of debt? have food storage? |
| 18:09.33 | elg | no more useless than arguing at home ;-) |
| 18:09.35 | tensai | Sargun_Screen: it is not. you're full of crap! |
| 18:09.39 | Sargun_Screen | these guys are hardcore lierals |
| 18:09.45 | Sargun_Screen | :-P |
| 18:09.49 | lukfugl | Sargun_Screen: oh, I know. but vontrapp and I are brothers, so we're going to have the discussion anyways. might as well do it now :) |
| 18:09.51 | elg | hardcore lieros? |
| 18:09.52 | elg | oh noew |
| 18:09.55 | Sargun_Screen | (jokimg) |
| 18:10.01 | vontrapp | lierals? is that participants in a liero game? |
| 18:10.23 | elg | that's probably the first time we've been called liberals, if that's what you meant :) |
| 18:10.28 | tensai | elg: "oh noew"? is that what a cat says when you step on it? |
| 18:10.33 | lukfugl | vontrapp: being prepared for emergency and inviting emergency aren't the same thing |
| 18:10.53 | vontrapp | i didn't invite the emergency, but now i'm paying to postpone it |
| 18:11.01 | elg | kind of like car maintenance? |
| 18:11.23 | vontrapp | i just think it's morally wrong to acquire someone elses money to cover the downside of anything |
| 18:11.29 | vontrapp | ANYTHING |
| 18:11.30 | elg | now i'm not saying the plan (and certainly not the bill) is perfect, |
| 18:11.38 | lukfugl | vontrapp: I agree with you that this bill is just a bandaid, and a poor one at that. I take issue with your argument that NOTHING should have been done |
| 18:11.43 | elg | but sometimes you have to spend money, sometimes lots of money, to avoid disaster |
| 18:11.50 | vontrapp | i wouldn't be in support of ANY bill that spent taxpayer money to the private sector |
| 18:12.19 | fugue88 | Doesn't most government spending do that? |
| 18:12.19 | neybar | what about bills that build new roads? Private companies make money on that! That should be illegal!!!! |
| 18:12.25 | vontrapp | elg: this isn't regular economic maintenence |
| 18:12.27 | zzzirk | seems irresponsible to save someone for being irresponsible to me personally |
| 18:12.35 | elg | well no, not in the sense of an oil change |
| 18:12.41 | vontrapp | this is a major breakdown of you car, and now you're taking your neighbors money to fix it |
| 18:12.44 | elg | more like a new tire or transmission |
| 18:12.50 | elg | no, this is *our* car |
| 18:12.55 | elg | the whole country |
| 18:13.06 | tensai | this is the car that the whole neighborhood carpools in |
| 18:13.18 | elg | we're asking the tires to pitch in to fix the transmission |
| 18:13.32 | eightyeight | woah! we have 5 electoral votes now? |
| 18:13.40 | vontrapp | maybe the tires would rather be on a different car |
| 18:13.43 | zzzirk | but aren't we leaving the drunken driver in charge? |
| 18:13.55 | vontrapp | zzzirk: haha, yeah |
| 18:14.03 | tensai | and who farted with all the windows rolled up. c'mon guys! |
| 18:14.09 | vontrapp | we're PAYING the drunken driver |
| 18:14.13 | zzzirk | looks sheepish |
| 18:14.14 | neybar | hotbox! |
| 18:14.14 | zzzirk | sorry |
| 18:14.14 | Sargun_Screen | eightyeight: oh noes |
| 18:15.01 | eightyeight | feels special |
| 18:15.02 | lukfugl | eightyeight: umm yeah. for a while now |
| 18:15.09 | vontrapp | lukfugl: fwiw, i wouldn't be entirely agains taxpayer money being used somehow to solve the problem, make some new rules, whatever |
| 18:15.10 | *** join/#utah whiteinge (n=whiteing@166-70-191-39.ip.xmission.com) |
| 18:15.16 | eightyeight | lukfugl: the last election, didn't we only have 3? |
| 18:15.20 | vontrapp | but not paying the people who caused the problem |
| 18:15.22 | Sargun_Screen | any state where george bush won should have its representatives taken away |
| 18:15.24 | Sargun_Screen | and shot |
| 18:15.31 | elg | vontrapp: you're oversimplifying |
| 18:15.40 | vontrapp | no, i'm just principled |
| 18:15.49 | lukfugl | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:15.53 | elg | Sargun_Screen: congrats, you just killed roughly half the nation |
| 18:15.55 | Sargun_Screen | heh |
| 18:15.57 | neybar | vontrapp: I think most people have mentioned that we don't like this particular bill, but we need to do something. |
| 18:15.57 | lukfugl | oops, where'd that space come from? |
| 18:16.12 | elg | vontrapp: well, there's simplistic principles and there's oversimplifying the bill |
| 18:16.12 | Sargun_Screen | elg: no, just the representatives |
| 18:16.15 | Tene | For anyone who hasn't played with graphviz before, I threw together a trivial cgi interface for it here: http://pleasedieinafire.net/cgi-bin/graphviz |
| 18:16.31 | elg | Tene: w00t |
| 18:16.45 | vontrapp | i just don't like the "something had to be done, so might as well be this bill, as much as we don't like it" |
| 18:16.58 | vontrapp | it's a lousy excuse |
| 18:17.01 | Sargun_Screen | Tene: graphviz is neat |
| 18:17.01 | vontrapp | LOUSY |
| 18:17.06 | elg | it's an imperfect world |
| 18:17.14 | elg | sometimes something is better than nothing |
| 18:17.38 | lukfugl | vontrapp: agreed on that. I'm upset that the bill passed. I just thought the conversation had moved on to economic intervention in general |
| 18:17.42 | neybar | vontrapp: who says that we might as well use this bill? I for one talked to my congressman and he is voting No on this bill. |
| 18:17.53 | tensai | elg: but sometimes nothing is better than something |
| 18:18.01 | lukfugl | neybar: bill passed about 45 minutes ago |
| 18:18.03 | vontrapp | everyone seems to be apoligizing for the intervention |
| 18:18.04 | lukfugl | fyi |
| 18:18.05 | vontrapp | that's all |
| 18:18.09 | neybar | bummer |
| 18:18.15 | elg | tensai: also true |
| 18:18.30 | tensai | elg: I'm thinking most of what the TSA does, for example |
| 18:18.36 | elg | exactly |
| 18:18.42 | Sargun_Screen | china and japan are probably partying |
| 18:18.43 | lukfugl | heh |
| 18:18.51 | vontrapp | it's always "in a perfect world" but oh well, here's a 700B check |
| 18:19.03 | elg | still oversimplifying |
| 18:19.11 | elg | hyperbole will get you nowhere |
| 18:19.17 | Sargun_Screen | the tsa is the professional harassment force |
| 18:19.44 | elg | saw an article the other day about a 2 year old on the no-fly list. |
| 18:19.46 | vontrapp | elg: i don't see a middle ground here, you're glad the bill passed or you're not |
| 18:20.11 | vontrapp | you think it should have passed or you don't |
| 18:20.16 | elg | yeah, like you're glad you had to get your bike out of the impound or you're not |
| 18:20.26 | elg | if you're not glad you got your bike back, you should have left it there |
| 18:20.32 | tensai | I'm glad they exempted children's wooden arrows from the excise tax |
| 18:20.52 | zzzirk | yeah, I was losing sleep over that |
| 18:20.54 | fugue88 | Yeah, this day will go down in history for that. |
| 18:20.54 | elg | tensai: you don't know that. you didn't read it |
| 18:21.18 | tensai | ~lart elg |
| 18:21.18 | ibot | puts elg into a headlock and administers a mighty noogie, rubbing half of elg's hair of |
| 18:21.21 | Sargun_Screen | Tene: but dude, they're arrows, you cannot tax arrows! |
| 18:21.32 | elg | my hair of what? |
| 18:21.33 | tensai | Sargun_Screen: you could yesterday but not tomorrow |
| 18:21.34 | Tene | ^5 tensai |
| 18:21.40 | lukfugl | tensai: fwiw, the arrows excise thing was a renewal of a measure that went into effect after the excise was *accidentally* imposed by poorly worded legislation in '04 |
| 18:21.56 | lukfugl | still shouldn't be attached to this bill, but it's not the level of pork everyone makes it out to be |
| 18:22.14 | fugue88 | http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:5:./temp/~c110eHUH2v:e377921: |
| 18:22.18 | brac | [Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)] |
| 18:22.22 | fugue88 | wooden arrows |
| 18:22.31 | Sargun_Screen | how many children's arrows are sold a year |
| 18:22.41 | lukfugl | Sargun_Screen: BBSA |
| 18:22.41 | tensai | lukfugl: didn't know that. the green energy bill was important too, but this also wasn't the place for it. |
| 18:22.45 | lukfugl | s/BBSA/BSA/ |
| 18:23.36 | vontrapp | elg: in this case, i didn't want my bike back |
| 18:23.36 | zzzirk | government isn't about doing what's best for the country, it's about buying someone's vote by passing something THEY want in return for their vote for what you want |
| 18:23.44 | elg | imagine someone submitting a patch to linux with the sort of off-topic and pork in this bill |
| 18:23.44 | vontrapp | but i don't have a choice |
| 18:23.47 | vontrapp | that's what pisses me off |
| 18:23.57 | zzzirk | when your bike has been run over by a steam roller it's not worth recovering |
| 18:24.13 | elg | vontrapp: right, you didn't avoid it |
| 18:24.25 | vontrapp | what? |
| 18:24.31 | elg | you made a mistake, and the consequences are harsher than you think is fair, but they are real nonetheless |
| 18:24.40 | vontrapp | no, the actual bike i got back |
| 18:24.42 | elg | you're not happy you had to pay to get your bike out |
| 18:24.51 | vontrapp | the economic bike analogy, i DON'T want it back |
| 18:25.03 | elg | the economy is the bike in this imperfect analogy |
| 18:25.07 | vontrapp | good riddens i say |
| 18:25.18 | vontrapp | i'd rather have it, but i don't want to pay the price |
| 18:25.20 | Sargun_Screen | bike up the hill, down the hill |
| 18:25.27 | elg | you don't even know what life is like with a bad economy |
| 18:25.31 | lukfugl | good riddance to the economy? |
| 18:25.56 | fugue88 | elg, we don't know what life is like with a *good* economy either. |
| 18:25.59 | vontrapp | the economy won't go away, it won't dissapear, it won't self destruct |
| 18:26.10 | elg | puhlease. our economy isn't perfect but it's pretty good |
| 18:26.32 | elg | even now. you don't have to look very far in space or time to find examples of truly bad economies and how it devastates everyone |
| 18:26.37 | vontrapp | elg: it is pretty good, and pretty darn resiliant |
| 18:26.38 | elg | the depression. 3rd world countries |
| 18:26.51 | vontrapp | what happened in the depression? oh yeah, massive bailouts |
| 18:26.54 | vontrapp | it was still a depression |
| 18:27.03 | fugue88 | So, it's better than that, but that doesn't imply that it's actually *good*. |
| 18:27.05 | vontrapp | maybe even worse off for the bailouts |
| 18:27.10 | elg | best estimates are that it would have gone on much much longer without the interventions |
| 18:27.32 | levi | elg: Unless you're a Friedmanite. |
| 18:27.36 | elg | too bad we don't know for sure. |
| 18:27.37 | vontrapp | conjecture, like my side, admitidely, but still conjecture |
| 18:27.42 | elg | too bad we only have one timeline |
| 18:28.06 | elg | fugue88: i already said it's not perfect |
| 18:28.31 | elg | but many many people live very comfortable lives, and most of the rest scrape by, and relatively few people are in true poverty |
| 18:28.35 | elg | compared to other times/places |
| 18:28.40 | elg | i call that good |
| 18:28.41 | lukfugl | perhaps we could divert all our arguing energy into building a Slider's type machine; but with better navigation and "not getting lost" involved |
| 18:28.50 | elg | most of us, me included, don't know what bad really is |
| 18:29.04 | elg | no fun if you don't get lost |
| 18:29.22 | vontrapp | maybe bad is just what we need, since we've never had it, we're not so wise |
| 18:29.49 | lukfugl | there you go inviting disaster again |
| 18:29.53 | lukfugl | what is it with you and that? |
| 18:29.53 | elg | you'll make a great parent. :) "i think you need to have the flu now for awhile so you know to wash your hands" |
| 18:30.17 | vontrapp | i just think the disaster might not be so bad as it's made out to be |
| 18:30.24 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@wsip-24-234-236-98.lv.lv.cox.net) |
| 18:30.28 | vontrapp | and maybe we're just making it worse with all this intervention |
| 18:30.29 | elg | or it could be much much worse than you ever imagined |
| 18:30.32 | lukfugl | -lart sjansen |
| 18:30.35 | brac | feeds sjansen to the Borg |
| 18:30.39 | lukfugl | run while you still have your sanity |
| 18:30.51 | sjansen | sanity? |
| 18:30.56 | elg | he had sanity? |
| 18:30.58 | lukfugl | good point |
| 18:31.38 | vontrapp | sure, people in the great depression had 'hard times' |
| 18:31.51 | vontrapp | but we all have our difficult things we deal with |
| 18:32.11 | tensai | my cheese danish is stale |
| 18:32.24 | lukfugl | tensai: sinner |
| 18:32.34 | sjansen | I'm coming late to the conversation, but I assume someone has already pointed out that current conditions are more similar to the "Long Depression" than the "[not as] Great Depression"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression |
| 18:32.35 | lukfugl | one should never allow a cheese danish to go stale |
| 18:32.53 | elg | sjansen: nope, that's your honor |
| 18:35.30 | sjansen | Also: http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=477k3d8mh2wmtpc4b6h07p4hy9z83x18 |
| 18:38.06 | elg | sjansen: you are required to weigh in on the vote now |
| 18:38.26 | sjansen | I assume we've already elected a winner of last night's debate? |
| 18:38.50 | levi | Haven't even discussed that. |
| 18:39.11 | levi | We've been talking about the bailout bill. |
| 18:39.40 | lukfugl | sjansen: if they have, I wasn't here, so I'm up for discussing it |
| 18:39.52 | tensai | points everyone to http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html |
| 18:39.56 | brac | [FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate] |
| 18:42.04 | *** join/#utah |phoenyx| (n=|phoenyx@ip65-44-121-9.z121-44-65.customer.algx.net) |
| 18:42.13 | lukfugl | -lart |phoenyx| |
| 18:42.13 | brac | forces |phoenyx| to eat all its veggies |
| 18:44.09 | lukfugl | I'll make the first stab, which will probably get some vitriol. I didn't like Palin. She was *too* folksy, middle-class, populist, whatever you want to call it. |
| 18:44.24 | levi | I agree. |
| 18:44.36 | elg | i didn't mind her personality wise |
| 18:44.39 | levi | I don't want my VP winking at me. |
| 18:44.42 | elg | but she dodged the questions and parroted mccain |
| 18:44.57 | lukfugl | yeah, the question dodging bothered me too |
| 18:45.00 | levi | I'm tired of folksy style in the White House. |
| 18:45.06 | elg | and i didn't even notice winking. of course, I had my laptop out and was playing with lirc+audacious and making caramel sauce. ;) |
| 18:45.12 | lukfugl | it bothered me about both candidates in the first presidential debate too |
| 18:45.26 | elg | but it was different there |
| 18:45.29 | lukfugl | mmm, caramel sauce |
| 18:45.32 | lukfugl | joe pastry's? |
| 18:45.37 | levi | Question dodging is the primary skill of a politician. :) |
| 18:45.40 | elg | they got set off and talked on and on with no moderation |
| 18:45.50 | elg | here, she just ignored the questions completely |
| 18:46.00 | elg | yeah, but it ended up darker than I wanted. |
| 18:46.12 | elg | well, actually not as dark as my eyes wanted, but darker than my tongue wants |
| 18:46.21 | lukfugl | there were moments in the presidential debate where it seemed they ignored the question completely, but you're right, Palin took the cake on that front |
| 18:46.22 | elg | and when I added the cream it got coagulated - grainy |
| 18:46.26 | levi | (I assume you've switched to talking about caramel) |
| 18:46.32 | *** part/#utah fugue88 (n=dsowen@fugue88.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:46.33 | elg | maybe i need to add the cream slower or let it cool slightly |
| 18:46.55 | elg | levi: i hope so |
| 18:47.01 | levi | lukfugl: She even said up front that she was going to answer however she wanted so she could talk to America. |
| 18:47.16 | elg | translation: so she could stick to her rehearsed subjects |
| 18:47.32 | lukfugl | yeah. "debate? pbbt. I'm not here for a debate, I'm here to make talking points" |
| 18:47.52 | elg | not that i blame them, she doesn't have the experience to do otherwise really |
| 18:47.57 | |phoenyx| | my wife: "did she just do a shout out in a debate?! She just did a shout out in a debate!" |
| 18:49.35 | elg | mccain's health plan scares the beetles out of me |
| 18:49.48 | lukfugl | yeah, me too |
| 18:50.06 | elg | $5k tax credit (hello, I don't pay $5k in taxes) so we can buy our own insurance at individual rates where employers pay $12k at group rates? |
| 18:50.40 | levi | But it's budget-neutal! |
| 18:50.41 | elg | and somehow this 5k credit costs the govt nothing? what about the 5k you just didn't collect? |
| 18:50.50 | elg | 5k * n million people |
| 18:51.59 | sjansen | The debate convinced me that not only do I not want Palin as VP, I also don't want her as a neighbor. |
| 18:52.32 | sjansen | Some women poor on so much fake charm it's creepy. |
| 18:52.37 | unum | sjansen: I'm with you on that |
| 18:52.48 | levi | Say it ain't so, Joe! |
| 18:53.11 | |phoenyx| | obviously rehearsed |
| 18:53.38 | tensai | elg: I do think there's some wisdom in decoupling health insurance from employment |
| 18:53.44 | elg | i do too |
| 18:53.56 | elg | lots of it actually |
| 18:54.03 | elg | but this certainly seems like a bad way to do it to e |
| 18:54.04 | elg | me |
| 18:54.15 | neybar | sjansen: at the same time I think it firmed up my decision that I don't want Biden either. I'm not sure where that leaves me :) |
| 18:54.23 | elg | notes that his "employment" is essentially no help in insurance for the past several years |
| 18:54.39 | elg | benefits are a luxury and often not present in lower income brackets |
| 18:54.41 | high_roller | neybar: with the rest of us that don't really want either candidate |
| 18:55.04 | tensai | I bought my own insurance a few years back when my employer offered none. I can't recall how much we paid. |
| 18:55.24 | sjansen | I think we can survive a Biden presidency if the unlikely happened. I don't think we can survive a Palin presidency if the much more likely happened. |
| 18:55.36 | elg | we priced it, about $10k for the three of us iirc (now 4) |
| 18:55.46 | high_roller | because of pre-existing conditions I've never been able to buy private insurance |
| 18:55.48 | lukfugl | per year? |
| 18:55.50 | elg | we can't afford it. I sometimes get covered by school as an individual, but not always |
| 18:55.55 | elg | medicare helps out |
| 18:55.56 | tensai | it was kinda fun to have some actual choice in the decision instead of being stuck with an expensive plan that covers viagra and abortions but not birth control |
| 18:56.05 | elg | for the kids at least, and I think for erin |
| 18:56.21 | *** part/#utah |phoenyx| (n=|phoenyx@ip65-44-121-9.z121-44-65.customer.algx.net) |
| 18:56.33 | elg | we can't get coverage for erin, though she's probably in the top 5% of healthy lifestyle |
| 18:56.35 | neybar | ugh, don't get me started on how broken our health insurance system is. I just had to get insurance for my family because my employer doesn't offer it. I had to go through 3 different companies to get coverage for each member of my family. I think it took 3 months to get things sorted out. |
| 18:57.03 | levi | I don't think anyone would argue that our system isn't screwed up. |
| 18:57.37 | levi | We pay way more than any other industrialized nation for health care, and less than half of our population is covered. |
| 18:57.58 | tensai | recommends everyone view the PBS Frontline episode about health care around the world |
| 19:00.22 | vontrapp | i have that on my mythtv |
| 19:00.26 | vontrapp | haven't watched it yet |
| 19:02.04 | levi | Oh, I thought it was particularly pathetic when Palin corrected Biden on the 'Drill, Baby, Drill' chant. |
| 19:03.39 | tensai | levi: that made me cringe |
| 19:03.44 | lukfugl | same |
| 19:03.51 | tensai | there is absolutely no way we can drill ourselves out of our energy woes |
| 19:04.13 | lukfugl | ignoring the content, just the tackiness of it |
| 19:04.28 | levi | And the whole 'foreign oil' thing. We buy most of our oil from Canada and Mexico, IIRC. |
| 19:05.02 | elg | i get most of my oil from wal-mart |
| 19:05.28 | tensai | elg: we're not talking peanuts here |
| 19:05.33 | levi | And the pipeline she wants to build for natural gas (it's by no means under construction or even scheduled to start) would be built by a Canadian company. |
| 19:05.52 | elg | i just let my natural gas out into the free air |
| 19:07.37 | lukfugl | elg reminds me of http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,493611,00.html |
| 19:07.44 | levi | Anyway, both of them had some facts wrong, and I cringed at Biden a few times too. |
| 19:08.04 | tensai | http://www.facsnet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=212&Itemid=46 |
| 19:08.18 | tensai | a great explanation of the oil economy |
| 19:08.20 | elg | but cows are holy |
| 19:08.43 | lukfugl | I was actually surprised when Biden confirmed that the Obama/Biden ticket opposes "gay marraige" (in the redefining marraige sense) |
| 19:09.34 | levi | I was a little surprised by that too, but glad to hear it. |
| 19:10.18 | levi | I don't think they'd support a constitutional amendment to define marriage, though. |
| 19:11.00 | tensai | I recall obama at a gay debate before the primaries said that he supported strong civil unions rather than gay marriage |
| 19:11.42 | vontrapp | i remember biden saying "you support having the same thing as gay marriage under a different name, might as well have gay marriage" |
| 19:11.42 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=Migs@wsddevdude.weber.k12.ut.us) |
| 19:12.09 | vontrapp | basically calling the palin answer not really anti-gay-marriage at all |
| 19:12.15 | elg | he didn't say that |
| 19:12.34 | vontrapp | not exactly that |
| 19:12.39 | elg | not that at all |
| 19:12.46 | vontrapp | but that's the one short part of the debate i did watch last night |
| 19:12.48 | elg | he just clarified that she supported the same thing without the word marriage |
| 19:12.58 | JoshH | levi, obama has said he supports letting states legalize it if they want to, so he wouldn't support an amendment |
| 19:13.11 | elg | he didn't say "you might as well have gay marriage" and in fact said he and obama were against redefining marriage |
| 19:13.12 | vontrapp | well yeah, not 'exactly' what i said, but he was conveying that idea |
| 19:13.27 | elg | so he was telling himself he might as well support gay marriage too? |
| 19:13.38 | vontrapp | elg: he was making himself out to be stronger on the issue |
| 19:13.50 | levi | He was stronger on the issue. |
| 19:14.20 | vontrapp | yeah, the "might as well have gay marriage" was to say "i think your approach is no different in that respect" |
| 19:14.32 | elg | he was drawing back the curtain on any confusion that might have been hanging around, revealing them to be on the same page and therefore taking away a possible advantage on her side |
| 19:14.55 | elg | so yes, he was making himself stronger (i.e. taking away her advantage in the eyes of some) |
| 19:14.56 | vontrapp | i didn't say he was wrong for saying it |
| 19:15.07 | vontrapp | that's just what i heard him say |
| 19:15.08 | elg | no, but you did mischaracterize what he said |
| 19:15.14 | vontrapp | (in my own interpretation) |
| 19:15.29 | elg | right, which is what we did for a few hours in here yesterday :) |
| 19:15.56 | vontrapp | elg: i don't think i was mischaracterizing him |
| 19:16.22 | vontrapp | he implied that palins approach wasn't as good, because civil unions might as well be marriages, just under a different name |
| 19:16.31 | elg | the part which I believe you micharacterized is "might as well have gay marriage" |
| 19:17.08 | elg | he very directly and clearly stated that they do not support redefining marriage. sounds pretty at odds |
| 19:17.30 | vontrapp | seemed like that's what he was saying, civil unions exactly similar to marriages are no better than marriages |
| 19:17.57 | vontrapp | i'm not saying he supports gay marriage, or redefining it |
| 19:18.03 | vontrapp | or that i thought that |
| 19:18.15 | elg | then what does "might as well have gay marriage" mean? |
| 19:18.43 | vontrapp | it was his attitude towards the mccain/palin view on it, he believes their 'answer' is no better than gay marriage |
| 19:18.50 | harleypig | marriage shouldn't even be used in legal terms |
| 19:19.07 | vontrapp | that's what i meant there |
| 19:19.13 | harleypig | it should be a legally binding contract between two or more people who intend to share resources for a long period of time |
| 19:19.25 | vontrapp | i wasn't saying biden himself would just as well have gay marriage |
| 19:19.31 | ^Migs^ | I got bored quickly during the debates last night |
| 19:19.31 | elg | vontrapp: you confused me |
| 19:19.37 | ^Migs^ | I don't know what that says about me |
| 19:19.41 | vontrapp | sorry |
| 19:19.41 | Jayce^ | interesting seeing the new fight over citi/wachovia/wells fargo |
| 19:19.53 | ^Migs^ | I just feel like I've had politics shoved down my throat the past 2 years, in such a way that the debates seemed meaningless |
| 19:20.11 | Jayce^ | government wants to force their comprimise, which costs the taxpayers a lot, instead of allowing a free-er market transaction to go through |
| 19:20.27 | elg | he was pinning her down in a sense, getting her to agree she supported a strong union if it's not called marriage, and then they both got pinned by the moderator with the direct question about redefining marriage |
| 19:21.17 | elg | i agree with you there. and for the sake of drilling down to the actual policies i am glad he did |
| 19:21.35 | levi | And then they were like, "Holy crap, did we just agree on something? Yeah, we just agreed on something. How'd that happen? We can't agree!" |
| 19:21.50 | elg | but i don't see how that's "as good as gay marriage", unless you're using some weak hyperbolic broad definition of "gay marriage" |
| 19:22.32 | elg | i was watching some debate footage from debates of years past and was surprised to hear cheering/jeering |
| 19:22.40 | elg | i guess this whole quiet audience thing is relatively new? |
| 19:22.42 | vontrapp | well, i was paraphrasing |
| 19:22.54 | elg | yes, and I was pointing out your bias |
| 19:23.02 | vontrapp | i don't think i had a bias |
| 19:23.28 | elg | i think using the term "gay marriage" inaccurately as a perjorative demonstrates your bias |
| 19:23.34 | levi | Everyone has a bias. |
| 19:23.40 | vontrapp | i was just (in an exagerrated way) saying he was calling palin out on a less anti-gay stance |
| 19:23.53 | elg | right, it's the exaggeration i was calling you out on |
| 19:24.20 | vontrapp | whatever, i don't even think that civil unions are as bad as gay marriage |
| 19:25.21 | vontrapp | put it another way, this is probably a more accurate paraphrase of what i got from his statement, "your not against gay marriage, you just want to call it something else" |
| 19:25.48 | vontrapp | in the end, neither one wants to redefine marriage, but biden additionally doesn't like civil unions |
| 19:26.13 | levi | What? Biden was direct and unapologetic in his support for civil unions. |
| 19:26.26 | vontrapp | non support! |
| 19:26.32 | vontrapp | geeeze, i must have a nasty lisp |
| 19:26.46 | levi | What? |
| 19:27.06 | vontrapp | that's what i got from that section |
| 19:27.23 | levi | You got that he didn't support civil unions? |
| 19:28.14 | vontrapp | here's the exact quote: "The bottom line though is, and I'm glad to hear the governor, I take her at her word, obviously, that she think there should be no civil rights distinction, none whatsoever, between a committed gay couple and a committed heterosexual couple. If that's the case, we really don't have a difference." |
| 19:28.35 | vontrapp | iow, "might as well have gay marriage" |
| 19:28.45 | vontrapp | that's what i got, maybe i'm way off |
| 19:29.05 | lukfugl | I'm confused |
| 19:29.51 | vontrapp | he says, palin wants no distinction between marriage and gay civil unions, he says in that case "we really don't have a difference" |
| 19:30.02 | vontrapp | oh, unless he was saying no difference between the two of them |
| 19:30.02 | elg | civil rights |
| 19:30.25 | vontrapp | i read and heard that as no difference between equal civil unions and flat out having gay marriage |
| 19:30.27 | levi | vontrapp: Yes, he was saying there's no difference between what Obama/Biden want and what McCain/Palin want. |
| 19:30.33 | elg | right |
| 19:30.35 | vontrapp | ah, my bad |
| 19:30.37 | elg | so there's the confusion |
| 19:30.38 | elg | ok |
| 19:31.22 | levi | I'm not sure Palin's stance is actually that strong, so they do have a difference. |
| 19:31.34 | ^Migs^ | http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fail-owned-bbq-design-fail.jpg |
| 19:31.55 | vontrapp | nice! |
| 19:31.57 | levi | Or they might, anyway. |
| 19:32.13 | vontrapp | levi: it's your bbq! |
| 19:32.31 | vontrapp | there, now i've called you a nazi ;) |
| 19:32.33 | levi | vontrapp: Took you long enough to get around to nazi. :) |
| 19:32.54 | levi | Nazi is just short for National Socialist, anyway. |
| 19:33.29 | vontrapp | well, it's short for a german national socialist, and they kill jews |
| 19:34.08 | vontrapp | but if you want to adopt it, fine with me |
| 19:34.13 | levi | Well yes, I'm certainly not a nazi, nor am I defending them. |
| 19:34.15 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.69) |
| 19:34.47 | levi | I was just pointing out the etymology, and that it follows along with the other things you've already mentioned like neocon and socialist. |
| 19:34.57 | vontrapp | we need more people to call themselves nazis, so that national socialists don't remain charactarized by that one group of them |
| 19:35.37 | ^Migs^ | I'll volunteer to be a nazi |
| 19:36.06 | ^Migs^ | except I'll be all philanthropic and stuff. Make people confused about what a nazi really is |
| 19:36.11 | ^Migs^ | mess with their minds |
| 19:36.21 | elg | levi: yeah, she was a bit flustered at that point and is probably kicking herself |
| 19:46.23 | levi | I think Biden was playing softball with her to avoid seeming too harsh at first, but she started out on the offensive so he racheted up his game as the debate went on, and she kind of wore thin as it became clear she didn't have a whole lot of material to work with. |
| 19:46.38 | levi | Wow, run-on sentence. |
| 19:48.33 | elg | i don't know biden very well, but what i read people were impressed with how he pulled off not being condescending |
| 19:50.03 | levi | When the debate started out, I was thinking, "This isn't the Palin I saw being interviewed by Katie Couric!" but as time went on, it became clear that she wasn't really all that different. She was at least coherent, though. :) |
| 19:55.47 | Jayce^ | as if couric would present something in a good light :) |
| 19:57.41 | levi | I'm not sure you can make the sort of babbling Palin did on Couric's show look good. |
| 19:58.38 | unum | people having been defacing obama signs |
| 19:58.40 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 19:58.44 | unum | in utah |
| 19:59.02 | unum | I realized it can't really go the other way around, because I haven't seen any mccain signs |
| 19:59.33 | Sargun | McSane for '08 |
| 20:03.01 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@64.252.153.52) |
| 20:03.15 | lukfugl | -pickle redbeard2 |
| 20:03.24 | lukfugl | ~pickle redbeard2 |
| 20:03.24 | ibot | ACTION crams redbeard2 in a barrel, adds some brine and seasoning, and lets redbeard2 sit for a long while in a dark room until redbeard2 is ripe |
| 20:04.08 | lukfugl | -chat the debate |
| 20:04.09 | brac | the debate convinced me to the new child process went away |
| 20:04.39 | harleypig | oh oh oh ... put me in the whiskey barrel! |
| 20:05.08 | lukfugl | -chat harleypig |
| 20:05.09 | brac | harleypig went looking for |
| 20:05.16 | lukfugl | ... a whiskey barrel |
| 20:05.19 | harleypig | heh |
| 20:07.03 | Jayce^ | we'd never get him out |
| 20:07.24 | Jayce^ | I think harleypig wants to go the way Sir Hisss is |
| 20:08.14 | lukfugl | -chat I don't know |
| 20:08.15 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 20:08.24 | lukfugl | -chat don't know |
| 20:08.24 | brac | don't know about "those people" before then. |
| 20:08.30 | lukfugl | boring |
| 20:08.51 | lukfugl | why can't brac -chat a long sentence? |
| 20:09.04 | unum | I should have kept the flier one of my state reps is handing out. he seems to have trouble differianting between state and federal issues |
| 20:09.11 | elg | -chat if only |
| 20:09.12 | brac | if only the geekiest hacker thinks math geeks |
| 20:09.13 | harleypig | wow ... I had to look up Sir Hiss ... and no, that was a beer barrel. |
| 20:09.17 | elg | -chat i wish |
| 20:09.18 | brac | i wish google would lose market share increase |
| 20:09.24 | elg | -chat people should |
| 20:09.28 | brac | people should be multiple providers with unlimited access and Defaults thing in this channel |
| 20:09.40 | harleypig | it was going good, right up to thing |
| 20:10.00 | elg | -chat harleypig is |
| 20:10.00 | brac | harleypig is learned how to change something. I forget. |
| 20:10.06 | elg | -chat if harlyepig |
| 20:10.06 | brac | if harlyepig |
| 20:10.11 | elg | -chat now look |
| 20:10.11 | brac | now look for their torrid love affair. |
| 20:10.17 | lukfugl | -chat if harleypig |
| 20:10.17 | brac | if harleypig or dataw0lf =\ |
| 20:10.20 | harleypig | I learned how to change my jock strap |
| 20:10.34 | harleypig | o_O |
| 20:10.36 | lukfugl | apparently harleypig and dataw0lf are having a torrid love affair |
| 20:10.45 | harleypig | wow ... I wish I'd known! |
| 20:10.55 | lukfugl | and brac knows how to make emoticons |
| 20:11.07 | elg | -chat my jock |
| 20:11.07 | harleypig | -brac emoticons |
| 20:11.07 | brac | my jock strap |
| 20:11.16 | elg | -brac i don't |
| 20:11.17 | harleypig | -emoticons |
| 20:11.23 | elg | -chat i don't |
| 20:11.23 | brac | i don't know if you want to be done about it. |
| 20:11.33 | lukfugl | -chat elg |
| 20:11.34 | brac | elg went crazy in here. |
| 20:11.44 | harleypig | :D |
| 20:11.48 | lukfugl | no better place to do it |
| 20:12.03 | elg | -chat lukfugl is |
| 20:12.03 | brac | lukfugl is curious now |
| 20:12.12 | elg | -chat curiousity killed |
| 20:12.13 | brac | curiousity killed |
| 20:12.23 | elg | -chat curiosity killed |
| 20:12.23 | brac | curiosity killed |
| 20:12.30 | lukfugl | -chat brac |
| 20:12.31 | brac | brac went |
| 20:12.31 | elg | curiosity killed the cat, stupid |
| 20:12.36 | elg | brac went awol |
| 20:12.43 | lukfugl | -chat -chat |
| 20:12.43 | brac | -chat did |
| 20:12.43 | elg | -chat curiosity killed |
| 20:12.44 | brac | curiosity killed the puppy! |
| 20:12.55 | elg | awesome! |
| 20:13.20 | lukfugl | brac doesn't listen to his own -chat's, looks like |
| 20:13.42 | levi | OK, what do people here think of The Killers' new single, Human? |
| 20:14.28 | lukfugl | -chat the killers |
| 20:14.29 | brac | the killers |
| 20:14.32 | lukfugl | bah |
| 20:14.40 | lukfugl | levi: haven't heard it |
| 20:16.06 | elg | does it kill? |
| 20:19.13 | levi | I think it's pretty good. |
| 20:19.21 | levi | http://www.last.fm/music/The+Killers/_/Human |
| 20:20.47 | levi | It's got a bit of a New Order/PSB vibe to it. |
| 20:21.09 | lukfugl | oh? now you have my interest |
| 20:21.21 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 20:23.24 | levi | I hear it on the radio all the time now. |
| 20:23.34 | *** join/#utah sargun-palm (n=upirc@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 20:23.45 | sargun-palm | jack thompson is awesome |
| 20:23.47 | sargun-palm | shutup |
| 20:23.54 | lukfugl | ? |
| 20:24.12 | lukfugl | -chat jack thompson |
| 20:24.12 | brac | jack thompson is awesome |
| 20:24.32 | lukfugl | you've had a poor sample of opinion, brac |
| 20:25.08 | high_roller | its a bit too techno for me |
| 20:25.08 | sargun-palm | ~jack |
| 20:25.09 | ibot | A console cd-ripper written in python. URL: http://www.home.unix-ag.org/arne/jack/ |
| 20:25.16 | sargun-palm | ~jackthompson |
| 20:25.29 | sargun-palm | ~pants |
| 20:25.30 | ibot | ACTION divides by zero |
| 20:25.58 | lukfugl | high_roller: there can never be too much techno |
| 20:26.18 | sargun-palm | ~shirts |
| 20:26.54 | high_roller | it makes me want to pull out the light sticks and extacy |
| 20:27.15 | sargun-palm | there was a raver here |
| 20:27.19 | sargun-palm | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:27.24 | sargun-palm | what happened to him |
| 20:28.00 | levi | I don't think New Order and Pet Shop Boys were really rave scene stuff. |
| 20:28.23 | goozbach | girl talk is awesome! |
| 20:28.39 | sargun-palm | goozbach: ... |
| 20:28.42 | goozbach | mashups have always been hit or miss |
| 20:28.54 | goozbach | girltalk hits a bullseye |
| 20:29.00 | sargun-palm | goozback, did you forget your pills again? |
| 20:29.14 | goozbach | http://www.myspace.com/girltalk |
| 20:29.33 | goozbach | it's "pick your own price" for downloading their new album |
| 20:29.49 | sargun-palm | ah..... |
| 20:30.01 | sargun-palm | makes a bit more sense |
| 20:30.22 | sargun-palm | but the myspace link i'm not following |
| 20:30.27 | sargun-palm | might be a trick! |
| 20:30.44 | sargun-palm | (and it'll crash my browser) |
| 20:31.15 | goozbach | here you go http://74.124.198.47/illegal-art.net/__girl__talk___feed__the__anima.ls___/ |
| 20:31.18 | brac | [GIRL TALK - FEED THE ANIMALS - ILLEGAL ART] |
| 20:31.24 | sargun-palm | heh. |
| 20:31.32 | goozbach | following a link with an IP address better? |
| 20:31.52 | ^Migs^ | http://www.10news.com/news/17595550/detail.html |
| 20:31.54 | brac | [Math Teacher Accused Of Choking Student - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego] |
| 20:31.56 | goozbach | licensed using a CC Attrib-NC |
| 20:37.38 | tensai | man, how many sarguns do we need? |
| 20:38.09 | goozbach | tensai: I think we have five too many |
| 20:38.32 | Jayce^ | is ready to agree |
| 20:40.29 | tensai | so I've been trying out Konqueror the last few days |
| 20:40.47 | tensai | it's nice enough but I'm not sure I can live without the flashblock extension |
| 20:40.56 | redbeard2 | ~more cowbell |
| 20:41.23 | redbeard2 | tensai: is that extension mostly for blocking flash ads or what? |
| 20:41.36 | tensai | redbeard2: it puts a placeholder in for all flash objects |
| 20:41.44 | tensai | you can then click to have them load |
| 20:42.00 | redbeard2 | i like that |
| 20:42.09 | tensai | much like mosaic did for images, if anybody else recalls that |
| 20:42.35 | redbeard2 | has a flashback |
| 20:42.51 | redbeard2 | needs the flashblock for flashbacks |
| 20:43.01 | redbeard2 | actually, maybe harleypig needs that more than i do... |
| 20:43.01 | tensai | redbeard2: are you aware of the original author of mplayer edl? |
| 20:43.19 | redbeard2 | tensai: i've had a lot of people mention him to me. he must be well-liked. |
| 20:43.32 | tensai | he was vocal anyway |
| 20:44.21 | redbeard2 | i like his work |
| 20:44.28 | redbeard2 | at least, i like mplayer edls |
| 20:45.09 | tensai | the last I knew, which was a long time ago, it had issues with entire DVDs because the timecodes weren't adjusted properly for the different chapters or something like that |
| 20:45.14 | tensai | is that still the case? |
| 20:45.23 | lukfugl | wasn't that halcrow? |
| 20:45.31 | tensai | yes |
| 20:45.35 | redbeard2 | i'm afraid i've only played with them for linear editing |
| 20:45.35 | lukfugl | redbeard2: you weren't around in the halcrow days? |
| 20:45.48 | lukfugl | I thought you were |
| 20:45.56 | redbeard2 | lukfugl: nope. i know of him tho. |
| 20:46.18 | lukfugl | I miss mike |
| 20:46.20 | lukfugl | sometimes |
| 20:46.51 | redbeard2 | good old mike |
| 20:46.59 | redbeard2 | of the nine fingers and the ring of doom |
| 20:47.02 | redbeard2 | dun dun dun! |
| 20:47.39 | redbeard2 | my plane is here! yay! |
| 20:50.56 | redbeard2 | about to board. ciao, all ya'll. |
| 20:52.30 | eightyeight | wonders how fozzmoo is doing |
| 20:54.36 | eightyeight | if Sargun is using screen, then why so many logins? how difficult is it to ssh? |
| 20:54.51 | Sargun | uhm. |
| 20:54.55 | eightyeight | :) |
| 20:55.02 | Sargun | laziness. |
| 20:55.14 | eightyeight | Sargun, Sargun_Screen, sargun_palm... |
| 20:55.24 | Sargun | pssh sucks |
| 20:55.24 | eightyeight | ? |
| 20:55.27 | eightyeight | nay |
| 20:55.32 | Sargun | yay |
| 20:55.38 | eightyeight | supports ssh keys |
| 20:55.40 | emcnabb | man, I haven't said anything on IRC for a *long* time now |
| 20:55.43 | Sargun | the _screen is G/P |
| 20:55.45 | Sargun | emcnabb, yeah |
| 20:55.54 | eightyeight | full screen |
| 20:56.07 | eightyeight | different font sizes, and colors |
| 20:56.18 | eightyeight | ssh keys, multiple servers |
| 20:56.23 | eightyeight | is wondering how it sucks |
| 20:56.30 | harleypig | like a vacuum |
| 20:56.41 | harleypig | or, a blackhole? |
| 20:56.53 | eightyeight | if it were a blackhole, we'd all be gone |
| 20:57.03 | harleypig | depends on how big it was |
| 20:57.08 | eightyeight | and it'd be all Sargun's fault |
| 20:57.12 | harleypig | s/big/massive/ |
| 20:57.38 | eightyeight | Sargun: seriously though. is this nick running on irssi under screen? |
| 20:57.46 | eightyeight | or some other text irc client? |
| 20:58.30 | Sargun | _screen = irssi |
| 20:58.35 | Sargun | Sargun = X-Chat |
| 20:58.41 | Sargun | -palm = upIRC |
| 20:59.06 | eightyeight | so, why not Sargun under screen, and only 1 nick? does that box have remote ssh access? |
| 20:59.51 | eightyeight | or just kill the Sargun connection, use Sargun_Screen, and /nick Sargun |
| 21:00.01 | eightyeight | efficiency man! |
| 21:00.46 | eightyeight | i'm not trying to be a prick, i'm just curious why not 'ssh foo.com screen -dr' |
| 21:03.49 | JoshH | some people like to have a separate connection and nick for work, screens, home, friends house, mobiles, etc, so we always know exactly how and where they are chatting |
| 21:03.52 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 21:04.52 | elg | ~seen emcnabb |
| 21:04.54 | ibot | emcnabb is currently on #utah (7h 46m 1s). Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 9m 14s, last said: 'man, I haven't said anything on IRC for a *long* time now'. |
| 21:05.01 | tensai | others of us use an ssl proxy so we can connect from anywhere regardless of client |
| 21:05.05 | elg | yeah, 9m is a loong time |
| 21:05.22 | emcnabb | elg, that would be "loooong" |
| 21:05.36 | Sargun | eightyeight, laziness. |
| 21:05.59 | eightyeight | i don't get what that means |
| 21:06.41 | Sargun | ~seen mheath |
| 21:06.42 | ibot | mheath <i=62ca86f9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-90e70d47f48c333c> was last seen on IRC in channel #ubuntu-us-ut, 45d 5h 55m 15s ago, saying: 'Good morning, everyone.'. |
| 21:07.30 | *** mode/#utah [+o elg] by ChanServ |
| 21:07.34 | Sargun | ~seen atoponce |
| 21:07.34 | ibot | atoponce <n=aaron@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.bronze.atoponce> was last seen on IRC in channel #ubuntu-us-ut, 51d 3m 16s ago, saying: 'hello channel from the ubuntu class at the slc library, sponsored by xmission'. |
| 21:08.06 | *** mode/#utah [+b Sargun_*!*@*] by elg |
| 21:08.15 | elg | there ;-) |
| 21:08.23 | Sargun | :-( |
| 21:08.31 | *** mode/#utah [-b Sargun_*!*@*] by elg |
| 21:10.10 | *** join/#utah sargun__^ (n=sargun@66.151.148.225) |
| 21:10.21 | Sargun | aww |
| 21:10.22 | Sargun | darn |
| 21:10.28 | unum | sargun__^: atoponce now goes by eightyeight |
| 21:10.37 | Sargun | unum, I know. |
| 21:10.43 | Sargun | I was wondering when he changed |
| 21:10.49 | Sargun | I don't know why he changed. |
| 21:11.05 | Sargun | ~seen nix_chix0r |
| 21:11.07 | ibot | nix_chix0r <n=misspwn@12-208-224-227.client.mchsi.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 164d 17h 14m 55s ago, saying: 'huh'. |
| 21:11.14 | unum | he was encryptz for a while |
| 21:11.24 | Sargun | !decrypt |
| 21:11.24 | unum | I have no idea what's up with eightyeight |
| 21:11.54 | eightyeight | unum: http://pthree.org/2008/08/23/new-irc-nick/ |
| 21:12.32 | unum | I've got to start blogging again |
| 21:15.04 | levi | Holy cow, emcnabb. |
| 21:15.34 | levi | eightyeight: Oh, that's who you are. I was wondering. |
| 21:15.41 | levi | Silly nick changers. |
| 21:16.38 | lukfugl | ok, that's better |
| 21:16.43 | lukfugl | I was about to ask about truth in advertising |
| 21:16.53 | onehairyguy | heh |
| 21:17.02 | onehairyguy | agh ... now I have to wait to change my nick back. |
| 21:17.12 | eightyeight | i was waiting for that |
| 21:17.16 | harleypig | heh |
| 21:17.17 | eightyeight | nickserv is picky |
| 21:17.52 | harleypig | picky nicky |
| 21:17.56 | elg | harleypig: do you shave messages into your body hair? |
| 21:18.01 | levi | Hmm, I was selected randomly to participate in a UVU Student Motivation Survey. |
| 21:18.07 | elg | you know, like a walking thong billboard |
| 21:18.35 | harleypig | elg: If I got paid to go around wearing just a thong I would ... but whoever paid would have to cover court fees. |
| 21:18.46 | harleypig | s/paid would/paid me would/ |
| 21:18.47 | lukfugl | gah |
| 21:18.56 | elg | and courting fees |
| 21:19.27 | harleypig | I think that's called prostitution |
| 21:19.46 | harleypig | Bear Gigolo! |
| 21:20.00 | harleypig | I scared him away. |
| 21:20.00 | elg | now look what you done |
| 21:20.00 | Jayce^ | I'll stick with Bear Grylls |
| 21:20.02 | eightyeight | shudders at the thought |
| 21:20.16 | harleypig | ? wth is a Gryll? |
| 21:20.42 | Jayce^ | harleypig needs to queue up http://www.last.fm/music/David+Lee+Roth/_/Just+A+Gigilo |
| 21:20.49 | Jayce^ | and anyone following that thought should do it too |
| 21:20.50 | levi | slaps forehead: http://www.kued.org/productions/voteutah/?action=governor |
| 21:20.56 | brac | [KUED Vote Utah 2008: A Vote for the Next Generation] |
| 21:22.01 | harleypig | super dell looks like he's just been goosed. |
| 21:22.01 | Jayce^ | levi, funny thing, at fist I couldnt' see dell, and I though "nothing is worse than wearing the bow tie in your election pic..." |
| 21:22.01 | harleypig | with a bat |
| 21:22.01 | Jayce^ | then I scrolled down |
| 21:22.02 | mrpull | oh man... was superdell in the debate? |
| 21:22.27 | levi | The only thing worse than wering a bow tie would be being SUPERDELL. |
| 21:22.36 | Jayce^ | harleypig, http://beargrylls.com/ |
| 21:22.38 | brac | [Bear Grylls | International Speaker | Best selling Author | Everest Mountaineer] |
| 21:22.45 | eightyeight | yay for proprietary formats! |
| 21:23.33 | mrpull | ah nuts. it looks like superdell isn't on the debate. |
| 21:23.47 | levi | The debate links just don't work. |
| 21:24.01 | mrpull | it worked for me if I left click |
| 21:24.11 | mrpull | middle click gave me javascript errors |
| 21:25.08 | high_roller | qwicktime ftl |
| 21:25.20 | levi | mrpull: Huh, none of them worked for me regardless of how I clicked. |
| 21:25.33 | levi | http://www.kued.org/productions/voteutah/?action=2ndCongress |
| 21:25.33 | brac | [KUED Vote Utah 2008: A Vote for the Next Generation] |
| 21:25.40 | levi | Dennis Emery looks like he's afraid the camera is going to suck out his soul. |
| 21:25.49 | mrpull | why do they all look pissed? |
| 21:25.59 | levi | Jim Matheson looks like he's going to cry. |
| 21:26.09 | mrpull | maybe stills from video? |
| 21:26.11 | Jayce^ | wow, that emery one is *scary* |
| 21:26.14 | mrpull | those can't be posed |
| 21:26.24 | mrpull | or the photog should be dismissed |
| 21:26.31 | levi | I'm guessing bad photographer. |
| 21:26.40 | levi | Those are DMV-quality photographs. :) |
| 21:27.23 | eightyeight | that emery pic is great |
| 21:27.29 | mrpull | I'm playing with the electric sheep screen saver for the first time... anybody else used it? |
| 21:28.22 | levi | Ugh, Joe Buchman (L)'s page is 'www.thedoctorwillfreeyounow.com' |
| 21:29.27 | harleypig | mrpull: I have ... I haven't set it up in awhile though. |
| 21:29.41 | mrpull | how long does it take to render the first sheep? |
| 21:30.14 | harleypig | as long as 30 minutes. |
| 21:30.31 | harleypig | err ... that was on my machine ... dunno about yours, but mines fairly fast. |
| 21:30.33 | mrpull | it's downloading and uploading a hell of a lot of data for seemingly nothing |
| 21:30.37 | mrpull | 10+ Mbps |
| 21:30.53 | mrpull | it's a 4 core xeon... it's fairly fast |
| 21:31.03 | harleypig | yeah, it's transferring mpegs ... I seem to remember it being 5 minutes at a s hot. |
| 21:31.12 | harleypig | yeah, that's fast |
| 21:31.34 | harleypig | did you set up the torrent option? |
| 21:31.37 | mrpull | it doesn't look to be using much cpu |
| 21:31.39 | harleypig | does it still have the torrent option |
| 21:31.55 | mrpull | yeah. I bumped up the torrent throughput limits to see how high it might go. |
| 21:32.08 | harleypig | :] torrent will use everything you give it. |
| 21:32.46 | mrpull | and.... it just crashed |
| 21:33.49 | harleypig | well ... it's been more than a year since I used it ... |
| 21:34.01 | mrpull | no worries... I'm just killing time |
| 21:34.06 | mrpull | and wasting cpu cycles |
| 21:34.17 | mrpull | I'm anticipating the BYU game |
| 21:34.24 | mrpull | but have a couple hours till the kick off |
| 21:35.18 | Jayce^ | mrpull, if they don't win.... wow.. as bad as USC :) |
| 21:35.18 | harleypig | I forgot about the game ... I s hould be ok though, I'll be on the freeway an hour after the game starts... |
| 21:35.24 | Jayce^ | actually, much worse |
| 21:35.28 | mrpull | it's in logan |
| 21:35.36 | harleypig | Provo rioting? That'd be hilarious |
| 21:35.39 | Sargun^____^ | hi |
| 21:35.40 | harleypig | oh ... even better. |
| 21:36.09 | mrpull | I should have gone up. I bet the canyon is friggin beautiful right now. |
| 21:36.27 | mrpull | we went up to sundance last Saturday. it was spectacular. |
| 21:36.27 | elg | still time |
| 21:36.47 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:37.23 | Jayce^ | was going to head up to sundance, if my bike was done :( |
| 21:37.43 | mrpull | family is coming over to watch the game |
| 21:37.49 | mrpull | then play rockband afterward |
| 21:37.52 | mrpull | good times |
| 21:38.11 | tvc123 | mrpull: why wait the game should be over after the 1st quarter |
| 21:38.31 | mrpull | tvc123: you make a good point |
| 21:38.38 | tvc123 | is an Aggie and is allowed to make such predictions |
| 21:38.52 | mrpull | gotta see how the 2nd and 3rd stringers perform |
| 21:39.16 | tvc123 | really it will be about like the UofU game ... the only question is how long before the second string |
| 21:40.00 | Jayce^ | hopefully |
| 21:40.20 | mrpull | the rabid byu fans will watch to cheer on a shutout |
| 21:40.27 | mrpull | or a 50+ margin of victory |
| 21:40.47 | mrpull | if the cougars don't make a statement, the utes could jump over them in the polls |
| 21:40.53 | tvc123 | the really bad thing for USU at this point is that BYU needs that kind of win to keep their ranking |
| 21:40.58 | mrpull | (stupid polls) |
| 21:41.04 | Jayce^ | agreed |
| 21:41.06 | mrpull | tvc123: agreed |
| 21:41.15 | mrpull | wait... three people agree in #utah? |
| 21:41.22 | mrpull | looks for other signs of the end of the world |
| 21:41.38 | tvc123 | if USU wins start running |
| 21:43.46 | Sargun | wonders what drudge is on |
| 21:51.52 | tensai | Sargun: a soapbox? |
| 21:56.08 | *** join/#utah jfarnsworth (n=jfarnswo@64.0.193.10) |
| 21:56.19 | *** part/#utah jfarnsworth (n=jfarnswo@64.0.193.10) |
| 22:02.59 | tensai | http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/10/02/ignoble.awards.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest |
| 22:03.02 | brac | [Ig Nobels honor weird science: Coca-Cola as contraceptive - CNN.com] |
| 22:07.28 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 22:20.57 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.69) |
| 22:33.25 | *** join/#utah tristanbob__ (n=tristanb@static-vpn-137-190-250-252.weber.edu) |
| 22:45.10 | harleypig | I seem to remember an option for sort that would give you the number of occurrences of a line when -u was used, but I'm not seeing it now ... |
| 22:45.15 | harleypig | anyone know what I'm thinking of? |
| 22:52.07 | Tene | |sort|uniq -c |
| 22:53.51 | fozzmoo | collapses. |
| 22:54.37 | Tene | How was the exam? |
| 22:54.43 | Tene | I'm really curious to hear what you thought of it. |
| 22:57.37 | harleypig | Tene: oh, right. thx |
| 23:00.43 | fozzmoo | Exam: Part 2 was tough, but I'm pretty sure I passed with a good margin. |
| 23:01.02 | fozzmoo | I was a little pissed they had problems on stuff nobody uses, like NIS. :) |
| 23:01.23 | elg | shudders |
| 23:01.29 | elg | we did use nis a bit though |
| 23:01.48 | fozzmoo | runs |
| 23:03.56 | Tene | fozzmoo: and part one? |
| 23:45.32 | *** join/#utah _ccjoe_ (n=joeg@75.169.7.104) |
| 23:56.59 | *** part/#utah dataw0lf (n=stderr@truedat.org) |
