| 00:06.23 | harleypig | Supaplex: ya' killed'im! |
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| 00:42.24 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 01:06.39 | Supaplex | I think he was dead before I checked. :-/ |
| 01:09.54 | Sargun_Screen | haha. |
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| 01:46.30 | Supaplex | http://ogden.craigslist.org/zip/860424476.html |
| 02:32.17 | levi | Good evening. |
| 02:40.31 | Supaplex | hummmm |
| 02:40.40 | Supaplex | hey levi |
| 02:43.25 | levi | Wassup? |
| 02:52.49 | Supaplex | I have a replacement 21" crt monitor in the works on Wed. and now I'm checking the local retailers for a ps3 remote to play movies with etc. |
| 02:53.06 | levi | Nice. |
| 02:53.11 | levi | I kind of want a PS3. |
| 02:53.17 | levi | I kind of want a Wii, too. |
| 02:53.24 | levi | But not enough to really spend money on them. |
| 02:54.11 | Supaplex | that's understandable. I'm having 0 luck installing Linux on mine today. *shrug* |
| 02:54.47 | levi | I'd probably mostly use mine to play Blu-Ray movies. |
| 02:54.52 | Supaplex | I don't have a Wii, but my friends all hang out, and one of them shares :) |
| 02:55.14 | Supaplex | yup. it has faster load up time than most other players. may as well |
| 02:55.17 | Supaplex | anyway, ttyl. |
| 02:55.32 | levi | Seeya. |
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| 04:23.13 | Supaplex | dilvie: yo :) |
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| 06:09.05 | dilvie | y0 |
| 06:10.04 | Supaplex | hows the dilvie? |
| 06:11.17 | dilvie | pretty good |
| 06:11.21 | dilvie | how's supa? |
| 06:13.21 | Supaplex | good |
| 06:13.32 | Supaplex | fixed a free 15" flat screen in about 10 minutes |
| 06:13.41 | Supaplex | now I'm trying the 17" |
| 06:19.53 | dilvie | awesome! |
| 06:20.00 | dilvie | fix my mac |
| 06:21.34 | Sargun | how so |
| 06:21.38 | Sargun | what was wrong with it |
| 06:21.46 | Sargun | dilvie, sorry, that comes broken by default |
| 06:21.52 | Supaplex | I reseated the HV cable |
| 06:23.59 | dilvie | hahaha |
| 06:24.03 | dilvie | macs are awesome. |
| 06:24.10 | dilvie | I heart my mac. |
| 06:26.06 | Supaplex | If only mac os x would run on a ps3, being ppc and all. :p |
| 06:30.09 | Supaplex | I can settle for Linux :D |
| 06:30.37 | Supaplex | dilvie: do you think Sargun meant vista? hehehhee |
| 06:31.15 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:34.12 | dilvie | hahaha |
| 06:34.30 | dilvie | I'm a big OS X fan. |
| 06:34.37 | dilvie | I like it better than Windows. |
| 06:35.22 | dilvie | allthough |
| 06:35.40 | dilvie | I have to say, Microsoft Powershell is a better shell scripting language than bash - or perl. |
| 06:36.35 | dilvie | Microsoft FINALLY got the CLI right. Too bad only power users and system admins know it exists. |
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| 06:40.50 | Sargun | they did |
| 06:40.54 | Sargun | ? |
| 06:45.32 | dilvie | they did. |
| 06:45.49 | dilvie | scripting with powershell is really cool. |
| 06:46.03 | Sargun | they had that for ages |
| 06:46.07 | Sargun | they're called batch files |
| 06:46.08 | Sargun | duh |
| 06:46.10 | Sargun | ;-P |
| 06:46.27 | dilvie | sargun: ok. If you say so. |
| 06:46.29 | dilvie | ;) |
| 06:46.41 | dilvie | I wrote a BBS using nothing but batch files. |
| 06:46.55 | sparn7 | must have been one blazingly fast BBS |
| 06:46.57 | dilvie | I know better than just about anybody else how much MS batch language sucks. |
| 06:47.34 | dilvie | it was a pretty cool BBS, actually. =) |
| 06:47.41 | dilvie | had door games and everything. |
| 06:47.57 | dilvie | it wasn't slow, but it was one user at a time. |
| 06:47.58 | dilvie | =) |
| 06:50.46 | dilvie | I made that BBS because somebody in PC Magazine or something said that user input was impossible with batch files. I proved them wrong using copy con and ansi.sys. |
| 06:51.14 | dilvie | it's funny though that you have to come up with hacks like that just to get decent interactivity. |
| 06:51.39 | Supaplex | I'm sure you remember the "Are you serious?" look when you asked me about remapping enter to F6 |
| 06:52.16 | Supaplex | er, F6 to enter (so it would EOF copy con) |
| 06:52.29 | Sargun | Hey, anyone here understand the comcast cap? |
| 06:53.01 | Supaplex | caps comcast with a .357 slug or two |
| 06:53.09 | dilvie | supaplex: hehehe |
| 06:54.19 | Sargun | funny |
| 06:54.33 | Supaplex | Did I steal your punchline? |
| 06:54.49 | Sargun | beats findlay and dumps him in a corner |
| 06:54.54 | Sargun | s/findlay/Supaplex/ |
| 06:55.02 | Sargun | Where is findlay? |
| 06:55.11 | Supaplex | in the corner |
| 06:55.41 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:59.23 | sparn7 | i haven't noticed a comcast cap - i think it is effective in october - they plan to just slow down active downloaders during 'congested' times |
| 06:59.50 | sparn7 | and there is gonna be a 250GB cap monthly |
| 07:00.53 | Sargun | whenh |
| 07:01.28 | Supaplex | october localtime |
| 07:02.01 | Sargun | sparn7, based on TCP data transfer? |
| 07:02.29 | sparn7 | i would assume so :) unless you do alot of dns lookups |
| 07:03.09 | sparn7 | before they were just restricting torrents now they will do all |
| 07:04.22 | Sargun | well 250 gbit ~= 768kbit/sec |
| 07:04.23 | Sargun | if someone DoSed you |
| 07:04.30 | Sargun | they could get you disconnected |
| 07:04.31 | Sargun | for ever |
| 07:04.34 | Sargun | from the intarwabs |
| 07:04.38 | Sargun | and you couldn't help it |
| 07:04.43 | Sargun | sparn7, do you have comcast? |
| 07:04.51 | sparn7 | sure do |
| 07:05.46 | Sargun | when does the cap start? |
| 07:06.30 | sparn7 | Sargun - i'm sure they can tell the difference between the your downloading and your being dosed :) but then what about all the ssh password attacking ? there is a lot but not in the gbyte range lol |
| 07:07.05 | Sargun | sparn7, what's your download? |
| 07:07.28 | sparn7 | max is 1mbit from university ftp sites |
| 07:07.48 | sparn7 | maybe 1.2 - 1.4 in spirts |
| 07:08.01 | Sargun | uhm |
| 07:08.10 | Sargun | mind if we use you as a test victim? |
| 07:08.21 | Sargun | I mean, subject |
| 07:08.30 | sparn7 | if you can get through my firewall |
| 07:08.35 | Sargun | I don't need to |
| 07:08.36 | sparn7 | let me know |
| 07:08.38 | Sargun | I just need your IP |
| 07:08.43 | Supaplex | my fist is too big for the firewall |
| 07:09.46 | Sargun | do you have a way to monitor your bandwidth? |
| 07:10.00 | Sargun | sparn7, do you have a way to monitor your bandwidth? |
| 07:10.50 | sparn7 | Sargun - there are commands in irc for finding out if 'i have comcast' and what 'my ip' is - you didn't need me - and if you can affect me or get to my bank account number - let me know - i use gkrellm for basic speed - i'm really not that concerned about speed |
| 07:11.38 | Sargun | Oh, ok, its the one in your wois. |
| 07:11.41 | Sargun | s/wois/whois/ |
| 07:12.24 | Sargun | are you plugged directly into your modem? |
| 07:13.49 | sparn7 | and probably /dns - something is plugged into the modem - i can't tell with the rat's nest of wires |
| 07:13.51 | Supaplex | the matrix modem, in a store near you |
| 07:14.01 | Sargun | matrix modem? |
| 07:14.18 | Sargun | sparn7, as can you monitor the data flow at the modem level? |
| 07:14.47 | Supaplex | "the matrix" + modem. inspired by "are you plugged directly into your modem?" |
| 07:14.50 | sparn7 | Sargun? what is 'the modem level' |
| 07:15.15 | Sargun | uhm. |
| 07:15.26 | Sargun | so your modem feed into your endpoint. |
| 07:15.34 | Sargun | that's where I want to measure traffic |
| 07:16.25 | sparn7 | why not just go a u of u ftp site and see what you get? or do you want to measure inside the comcast network |
| 07:17.39 | Sargun | huh |
| 07:36.52 | Supaplex | well ftp speed test of course |
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| 15:13.34 | fozzmoo | Does anyone actually believe in man-made global warming anymore? |
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| 15:13.55 | unum | fozzmoo: most scientists |
| 15:14.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Consensus is not science! |
| 15:14.20 | fozzmoo | Most scientists? |
| 15:14.27 | Lone_Wanderer | gets on the Michael Crichton soapbox. |
| 15:14.40 | unum | I guess I should say most climate scientists... |
| 15:14.43 | fozzmoo | You mean all the ones that are listed on the IPCC report that requested their name be withheld? |
| 15:15.02 | unum | that's a long ways from most |
| 15:15.06 | tensai | does anyone actually believe we landed on the moon anymore? |
| 15:15.31 | fozzmoo | Now the earth is cooling... and it doesn't seem to follow a graph correlating to sales of Priuses. |
| 15:15.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Just because "most" scientists agree on something (even if they DO agree on it, which according to fozzmoo may not be the case) that doesn't make it true. |
| 15:16.02 | fozzmoo | It does, however, seem to follow solar output statistics |
| 15:16.08 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: I never said it was true. He asked if anyone believed in it |
| 15:16.15 | *** join/#utah gabegundy (n=gabe@57.251.sfcn.org) |
| 15:16.19 | fozzmoo | Otherwise, NASA landers on Mars should be looking for SUVs instead of water. |
| 15:16.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, okay, I'm not trying to argue with any one person, I just get uppity when someone makes a statement like that ;) |
| 15:17.13 | Lone_Wanderer | fozzmoo: You're neglecting a really big factor in the environmental movement though |
| 15:17.22 | fozzmoo | A lot of scientists have it in their best interest to at least let people believe they are on the man-made global warming bandwagon. |
| 15:17.49 | fozzmoo | After all, they need research money. |
| 15:17.58 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't even mean the scientists |
| 15:18.15 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm talking about all those California-dwelling neo-hippies |
| 15:18.27 | fozzmoo | Yeah? |
| 15:18.30 | Lone_Wanderer | who were raised religious but abandoned it because it's not the cool thing any more |
| 15:18.46 | Lone_Wanderer | but they still (like every human, apparently) have the need to feel religious feelings... |
| 15:18.56 | unum | I'm suprised man-made global warming people can currently get grants, under this administration |
| 15:19.01 | Lone_Wanderer | enter environmentalism with a message that's basically the same as Catholicism |
| 15:19.17 | fozzmoo | unum: The federal govt isn't the only one holding the pursestrings. |
| 15:19.23 | fozzmoo | Lone_Wanderer: Yeah, no kidding. |
| 15:19.29 | Lone_Wanderer | "You are inherently bad, but by observing these rituals (and by preaching to the unbelievers) you can atone for your sins and the sins of humanity" |
| 15:19.36 | fozzmoo | Where skepticism is akin to apostacy. |
| 15:20.13 | Lone_Wanderer | Except the rituals are recycling, etc. |
| 15:20.23 | Lone_Wanderer | And a lot of psychological self-flagellation. |
| 15:20.30 | fozzmoo | Here's a good editorial cartoon: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/cartoons/toon093008.gif |
| 15:21.30 | *** join/#utah jlp_work (n=jlp@gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.COM) |
| 15:21.34 | fozzmoo | And this one: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon092408.gif |
| 15:23.00 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't get the second one. |
| 15:26.16 | ^Migs^ | this is a weird problem. I have two web servers. One web server has an NFS mount to the other. Just right now, the mounted web server's Apache started overloading for no apparent reason. Then 15 seconds later, the mounting server did too. |
| 15:26.24 | ^Migs^ | The mounts are the only thing really linking them at all |
| 15:27.55 | unum | did you happen to get attacked from the out side? |
| 15:28.12 | ^Migs^ | that's the other thing I'm wondering, but not seeing anything |
| 15:29.21 | unum | your access and error logs don't know any thing? |
| 15:30.45 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@204.228.142.225) |
| 15:36.52 | ^Migs^ | not seeing anything |
| 15:37.34 | unum | when you say overloading do you mean people were getting errors saying the server was busy? |
| 15:41.48 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75.148.99.197) |
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| 15:54.47 | unum | anyone here use sqllite? |
| 15:55.02 | ^Migs^ | basically a zillion httpd processes are being created |
| 15:55.08 | ^Migs^ | it's happening again |
| 15:55.35 | ^Migs^ | that really sounds like a DoS, doesn't it? |
| 15:55.53 | unum | it does |
| 16:09.04 | *** join/#utah bugQ (n=bugq@lib-8-117.hotspot.utah.edu) |
| 16:40.14 | mrpull | anybody familiar with the concept of having a panel that shoots down an idea |
| 16:40.24 | mrpull | like a "kill panel" or "kill meeting" or something like that |
| 16:40.32 | mrpull | I'm trying to remember the common name for that |
| 16:41.14 | levi | I don't know, but I'm curious what you want to find the term for. |
| 16:44.09 | mrpull | there is a proposal that is good in theory but breaks down in application |
| 16:44.35 | mrpull | I'd like to organize a meeting to have the proposers defend the idea |
| 16:44.43 | mrpull | I don't want it killed, I just want the kinks worked out |
| 16:45.08 | mrpull | I thought there was a term used in academia for that type of meeting |
| 16:45.20 | levi | Thesis defense? ;) |
| 16:45.37 | mrpull | hehe... that's not it :) |
| 16:45.45 | mrpull | but it shares some aspects |
| 16:46.07 | unum | does anyone know an alpine school district admin? |
| 16:46.46 | mrpull | it's the sort of thing that google just doesn't help with |
| 16:47.22 | Jayce^ | opapo is sometimes in the channels unum |
| 16:47.26 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=vontrapp@vader.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:47.26 | ibot | steals vontrapp's parking sticker |
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| 16:49.02 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:56.54 | Sargun_Screen | school district admin = overpriced contractor |
| 16:59.42 | ^Migs^ | I met one once, but don't remember his name |
| 17:00.01 | Jayce^ | knows a couple |
| 17:00.30 | ^Migs^ | why do you need a school district admin? |
| 17:01.05 | ^Migs^ | Alpine's site isn't very helpful. This is their "District Administration" page: http://www.alpine.k12.ut.us/phpApps/genericPage.php?pdid=731 |
| 17:01.08 | unum | I know a teacher that's trying to do something on her website, and php sqlite modules would be really convient |
| 17:01.10 | ^Migs^ | then again, we don't even haev such a page |
| 17:01.13 | hjp_away | unum: Cody Spendlove and I are in the same Elder's Quorum |
| 17:01.26 | ^Migs^ | we break everything down into Department pages and list the admins over those departments |
| 17:01.36 | unum | I meant sysadmin |
| 17:01.56 | ^Migs^ | oh. Yeah, I can't remember his name. |
| 17:02.13 | ^Migs^ | just send an email to their helpdesk: helpdesk@alpine.k12.ut.us |
| 17:02.21 | ^Migs^ | ask it to be forwarded appropriately |
| 17:02.28 | Sargun_Screen | unum: sqlite -- that'll cosy $80000 for liscenses |
| 17:02.39 | ^Migs^ | Alpine has loads of money |
| 17:02.45 | unum | I just installed it on my debian box..... |
| 17:02.59 | Sargun_Screen | and it'll require the special contracts team to come in |
| 17:03.09 | *** join/#utah Tod-Laptop (n=TodPunk@67.214.242.10) |
| 17:03.10 | Sargun_Screen | which will be 39k fees |
| 17:03.11 | unum | I was wondering of one hung out here. I'll let her talk to them. I know she's talked to them before |
| 17:03.50 | ^Migs^ | I'm the only Utah school district admin awesome enough to hang out in here. Rekonize. |
| 17:04.18 | vontrapp | i thought sqlite was open source? |
| 17:04.32 | Sargun_Screen | unum: I'm just describing the idiocracy of school contractors |
| 17:04.51 | Sargun_Screen | and their overcomplication of everything. |
| 17:05.24 | hjp_away | Sargun_Screen: They're just playing the system. You should see what federal government contractors are like. |
| 17:05.45 | Sargun_Screen | they charged my school district 300k to setup (not including equipment) some networking equipment |
| 17:06.00 | Sargun_Screen | which was setup incorrectly mind you! |
| 17:06.19 | Sargun_Screen | rstp was off on a public access switch. |
| 17:08.20 | Sargun_Screen | anyways, I highly doubt the competency of the public school system |
| 17:09.21 | Sargun_Screen | even ask nick125 |
| 17:11.05 | mrpull | hrrrmm... PMBOK has a concept of "Kill Points" |
| 17:11.11 | mrpull | but that still isn't what I'm looking for |
| 17:11.19 | mrpull | but closer. it might be a PMP term. |
| 17:11.57 | ^Migs^ | This is why districts should hire their own network experts, if they can |
| 17:13.04 | Sargun_Screen | Oh, and $10 I bet that someone will say ?install oracle' during this process |
| 17:13.26 | Sargun_Screen | ^Migs^: or just ask a student with clue ;-P |
| 17:13.42 | ^Migs^ | yeah, free slave labor right there |
| 17:13.52 | ^Migs^ | as opposed to paid slave labor |
| 17:13.59 | Sargun_Screen | No, I offered my expertise to them, they said stfu, and I said no |
| 17:14.09 | levi | Sargun_Screen: stfu |
| 17:14.20 | Sargun_Screen | So I took down their thin client solution (250k) |
| 17:14.34 | Sargun_Screen | their web filtering solution (500k) |
| 17:14.39 | Sargun_Screen | their network |
| 17:14.57 | ^Migs^ | you need to understand, we realize that students are pretty dang smart. But we won't admit it openly. And it annoys us to no end that students constantly try to find loopholes in our system. |
| 17:15.06 | ^Migs^ | And that they succeed much of the time. |
| 17:15.47 | Sargun_Screen | loopholes? you mean security holes? |
| 17:15.57 | ^Migs^ | usually, yes |
| 17:16.37 | Sargun_Screen | well, A) stop pissing them off B) secure your systems better |
| 17:16.53 | levi | Or maybe the punk kids should quit being punk kids. |
| 17:16.53 | Sargun_Screen | there is no one better to secure your systems than the kids who have been hacking it |
| 17:17.18 | Sargun_Screen | and have hours upon hours to hunt for the thin client directors |
| 17:17.44 | Sargun_Screen | or pompous, ignorant adults should stoop down and humble themselves |
| 17:18.09 | levi | Heh. No, the know-it-all kids should quit spoiling the computer priviliges for everyone else. |
| 17:18.28 | levi | It's not your right to have free-reign over the school district's computers. |
| 17:18.43 | goozbach | it's one thing to bring a system down. you aren't uber-leet till you can get acess without being discovered. |
| 17:18.43 | Sargun_Screen | levi: its not like the other kids really need to access www.myspace.com |
| 17:18.53 | Tod-Laptop | I remember a flyer my mom had: "Kids! Tired of listening to your stoo-pid parents? Quick! Move out and get a job while you still know everything!" xD |
| 17:19.20 | Sargun_Screen | goozbach: why would you want access to the system? |
| 17:19.34 | harleypig | So you can fight agents using cool moves. |
| 17:19.40 | Sargun_Screen | heh. |
| 17:19.58 | Sargun_Screen | though, I did finally end up agreeing with levi |
| 17:20.25 | Sargun_Screen | that people should be able to use the computer access...for what they want |
| 17:20.38 | levi | Um, when did I say that? |
| 17:20.49 | Tod-Laptop | I have a question that may be inappropriate. If you were looking for a local entry level sysadmin guy/gal, how would you go about finding said person? |
| 17:21.14 | goozbach | Tod-Laptop: post an email to plug/sllug/uug/etc |
| 17:21.19 | high_roller | hire the bosses cousin's kid |
| 17:21.20 | Sargun_Screen | Tod-Laptop: where are you? how competent does the person have to be? |
| 17:21.36 | Sargun_Screen | high_roller: you got that from dailywtf? |
| 17:21.45 | high_roller | Sargun_Screen: yea pretty much |
| 17:22.19 | Tod-Laptop | I'm in Provo/Orem, and they need to be pretty competent. As in, they'll be being trained on how to manage two data centers with high availability equipment, load balancing, and some fairly intense reactionary scripts when problems happen. |
| 17:22.23 | Sargun_Screen | Tod-Laptop: Ask your current sysadmin to see if he has friends looking for employment |
| 17:22.35 | Tod-Laptop | They don't need to KNOW that, mind you, just have the aptitude to learn as I train them. |
| 17:22.45 | Tod-Laptop | IS the sysadmin |
| 17:22.53 | Sargun_Screen | oh, if you need it for a large place in utah - I agree with goozbach |
| 17:23.00 | Sargun_Screen | use the ml. |
| 17:23.15 | Tod-Laptop | mmm, kk. Many thanks for that. |
| 17:23.16 | Sargun_Screen | No, I have a better way, hire RHI. |
| 17:23.19 | Sargun_Screen | :-P |
| 17:23.28 | Tod-Laptop | xD |
| 17:23.36 | Tod-Laptop | I think I'll pass |
| 17:23.47 | Sargun_Screen | We had an RHI guy here |
| 17:24.10 | Sargun_Screen | he had an ounce of clue, and a golden ton of compensation |
| 17:24.25 | Tod-Laptop | With no reflection on the people (they come in all shades) I don't like RHI. |
| 17:25.27 | Sargun_Screen | ok, ok, fine if you don't like rhi what about recruiters recruiters recruiters! |
| 17:27.02 | Tod-Laptop | Only recruiters I've liked working with are TekSystems, actually, but that's just personal preference. They seemed to want more of a relationship than just a placement. I still have good conversations every month with the gal that was looking for a position for me. |
| 17:28.03 | Sargun_Screen | no offense - sysadmin type guys get very confused when they are interviewed by a female |
| 17:28.37 | vontrapp | read: Sargun_Screen gets confused when interviewed by a female |
| 17:28.46 | Tod-Laptop | I have more social skills than that, tyvm =cP |
| 17:28.49 | Sargun_Screen | hey! |
| 17:28.54 | eggyknap | A fair number of the geeks at $my_job are still distracted by the particular TekSystems person that typically finds people for us. |
| 17:28.55 | vontrapp | :p |
| 17:28.58 | Tod-Laptop | vontrapp: xD Couldn't have said it better |
| 17:29.23 | Tod-Laptop | eggyknap: as long as her name isn't Lianne. You can't have her. |
| 17:29.30 | Sargun_Screen | No, apparently the female sysadmin here waas uhm... sexually open? and scared a few guys off |
| 17:29.35 | eggyknap | Tod-Laptop: nope. We've got "Trinity" |
| 17:30.06 | Tod-Laptop | ah, so she finds you "The One" |
| 17:30.27 | Sargun_Screen | we ended up firing her because she tanked several thousand dollars of equipment |
| 17:30.42 | vontrapp | kool! she has a tank!? |
| 17:30.44 | Sargun_Screen | haha |
| 17:31.21 | Tod-Laptop | are you sure it's the sexuality bit, and not the tank that drove them off? |
| 17:32.56 | Sargun_Screen | maybe,... |
| 17:33.20 | Sargun_Screen | anyways sysadmin types are very scared of sexual harassment charges |
| 17:38.36 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@slcl007.digis.net) |
| 17:40.23 | Tene | The only competent person on the right side of the classroom this week is female. |
| 17:42.40 | *** part/#utah Tod-Laptop (n=TodPunk@67.214.242.10) |
| 17:43.04 | Sargun_Screen | Tene: heh, cool |
| 17:43.10 | brasto | does sllug have an irc channel? |
| 17:43.23 | Sargun_Screen | whatt class this week? |
| 17:43.24 | brasto | it's not #sllug... |
| 17:43.59 | vontrapp | #utah is _the_ channel for everyone cool in utah |
| 17:44.11 | vontrapp | so, if sllug is cool... |
| 17:45.13 | brasto | vontrapp: are you saying that #utah is for both sllug and plug? |
| 17:45.39 | goozbach | brasto: that's exactly what he's saying |
| 17:45.57 | brasto | ah, cool |
| 17:46.15 | brasto | anyone here in charge of sllug web site? |
| 17:46.36 | brasto | I'd suggest they announce the channel on their website like plug does |
| 17:46.36 | tensai | pokes mecworks and mecworks_ |
| 17:47.06 | levi | http://www.mentallyjumbled.com/2008/09/take-deep-breath-some-perspective-on.html |
| 17:50.25 | unum | fslc has their own server |
| 17:50.50 | brasto | ~fslc |
| 17:50.51 | ibot | hmm... fslc is Free Software Linux Club, USU based. or http://fslc.usu.edu/ |
| 17:52.10 | Jayce^ | brasto, mecworks and bbeattie are |
| 17:56.48 | mecworks | brasto: what's up? sllug uses #utah for its IRC channel. |
| 17:57.21 | mecworks | We also announce all our meetings on our web site as well as our mailing lists. |
| 17:58.56 | mecworks | There's no need for user groups in Utah to have their own IRC channel since there's such an overlap in membership. Many are members of several user groups. |
| 17:59.31 | brasto | mecworks, i was just suggesting that you add something to the website stating that you use this channel for chat |
| 17:59.42 | mecworks | Ah |
| 17:59.43 | mecworks | ic. |
| 18:00.02 | mecworks | that makes sense. |
| 18:00.44 | brasto | i'd suggest putting it on the front page, or the mail list page. |
| 18:01.01 | ^Migs^ | I actually originally came here not realizing it was a LUG channel. I just saw it and thought "Hey, a #utah channel! I'm a Utard!" |
| 18:02.36 | mecworks | :) |
| 18:02.58 | brasto | perhaps use both keywords in case of a page search, mecworks. maybe irc chat: #utah |
| 18:03.50 | brasto | and then, if you are feeling adventurous, make it a link to a web page that brings up the irc channel... |
| 18:03.55 | brasto | :) |
| 18:04.06 | vontrapp | levi: interesting article |
| 18:04.38 | vontrapp | i take issue with his statement that there's nothing wrong with the government "splurge" in theory |
| 18:04.50 | vontrapp | in theory, yes, the government could make a profit |
| 18:05.05 | vontrapp | but who the hell gave the government the right to make profit on my money? |
| 18:05.26 | Sargun_Screen | make a ink to the end of the internet |
| 18:05.34 | brasto | I'm looking for work again. Guru Labs is wonderful, but I /have/ to have better benefits. Anyone know of opportunities for Linux sys admins? |
| 18:05.36 | vontrapp | so, appose the bailout on the grounds that it's way to risky, but also on the grounds that the government has no bussiness doing that in the first place |
| 18:06.05 | Sargun_Screen | do you have an alternative? |
| 18:06.45 | Sargun_Screen | brasto: how many years experience do you have? |
| 18:07.06 | levi | vontrapp: Well, we all know our differences in opinion on government role. I agree that your position is the right one based on your views on government. |
| 18:07.13 | Sargun_Screen | 5-7? |
| 18:08.04 | levi | brasto: Maybe talk to rsimpkins about Omniture? |
| 18:09.06 | brasto | Omniture is a good choice, and one of my top choice companies, but I now live in West Valley. Still may be worth the commute though... rsimpkins, can you send me a PM? |
| 18:09.54 | levi | vontrapp: I have a less narrow view of government role, and given repeated historical precedent for this sort of thing, I don't think the possibility can be eliminated on those grounds. |
| 18:10.10 | Sargun_Screen | brasto: how many years experience do you have? -- I'm asking you because I know a few people looking for Sr. sysadmins |
| 18:10.39 | brasto | http://res.mscis.org will give you a good idea |
| 18:10.42 | brac | [MSCIS.org] |
| 18:10.47 | vontrapp | i heard on the news that this proposed bailout was "the biggest since the great depression" |
| 18:10.47 | brasto | I'm Red Hat certified |
| 18:10.53 | brasto | RHCE |
| 18:11.10 | vontrapp | was there really _more_ than $700 billion in bailouts back then? |
| 18:11.21 | vontrapp | or are they talking relatively? |
| 18:11.26 | levi | I have no idea how they're measuring or making the comparisons. |
| 18:11.38 | brasto | also, I really appreciate any feedback on my resume |
| 18:11.43 | vontrapp | either way, i don't believe it |
| 18:11.52 | brasto | (go to that link for the resume) |
| 18:12.26 | vontrapp | anyway, i'll take the too risky argument over nothing ;) |
| 18:12.56 | mecworks | brasto: done |
| 18:13.17 | levi | Well, I have not made up my mind for or against it. It's really hard to say how well it would work. |
| 18:13.21 | ^Migs^ | this is why I have a fixed mortgate rate |
| 18:13.25 | levi | But there's tremendous risk either way. |
| 18:13.29 | vontrapp | ther you go brasto, your resume is done, couldnt' be any better! |
| 18:14.02 | vontrapp | levi: but it's incredibly easy to say how well it _might_ _not_ work |
| 18:14.03 | goozbach | brasto: backcountry.com is hiring |
| 18:14.06 | vontrapp | and that's plenty for me |
| 18:14.10 | goozbach | bluehost |
| 18:14.11 | levi | ^Migs^: Me too, but the issue is what's going to happen to the financial markets as a whole, not to your house payment. |
| 18:14.40 | vontrapp | and that might isn't a drop in a bucket, it's a pretty big might |
| 18:14.56 | levi | vontrapp: Well, you have to consider all the scenarios and their consequences, likely and unlikely. |
| 18:15.15 | ^Migs^ | well, just gotta keep living within my means |
| 18:15.19 | ^Migs^ | get rid of all remaining debt |
| 18:15.27 | vontrapp | yep, i have considered the scenario that the bailout does exactly what they hope it will, and considered it very unlikely |
| 18:15.28 | ^Migs^ | can't do much about the house payment right now, but that other stuff, I can |
| 18:15.28 | levi | vontrapp: The cost of letting it run its course has a pretty darn big 'might' as well. |
| 18:15.55 | vontrapp | and i've considered the scenario that the bailout only serves to perpetuate the 'easy money' situation that started the whole mess |
| 18:16.00 | vontrapp | and considered that a lot more likely |
| 18:16.31 | levi | Your house payment will be difficult to make if you have no job, for example. Though your job in particular is probably fairly safe. |
| 18:16.42 | vontrapp | i'd rather the market correct now than X years later with even greater panick |
| 18:17.15 | brasto | goozbach: got a contact at backcountry.com? |
| 18:17.37 | goozbach | not directly |
| 18:17.50 | levi | vontrapp: There's no doubt there's going to be a market correction. Un-freezing the market does not mean that everything's going to go straight back up. |
| 18:18.17 | vontrapp | exactly, why unfreeze it when it will just freeze again? it _has_ to correct sometime |
| 18:18.53 | vontrapp | if there's some magical way to make a correction happen gradually and pleasently, i'm all ears |
| 18:19.06 | vontrapp | the bailout doesn't even pretend to be _that_ solution |
| 18:19.07 | Sargun_Screen | ok, course correction will momentarily freeze all credit |
| 18:19.32 | Sargun_Screen | do you know what happens if you freeze all credit for 90 days? |
| 18:19.56 | Sargun_Screen | 180 days? |
| 18:20.10 | levi | vontrapp: Why do you believe it will freeze again if a bailout bill passes, but not freeze again if it doesn't? |
| 18:20.28 | vontrapp | thing is, no particular anybody is freezing credit. it's all natural response from everyone |
| 18:20.45 | vontrapp | because it will freeze _now_ and be done |
| 18:20.59 | harleypig | We should just implement the ... crap ... what was the church's teaching about giving everything to the church and only taking what you needed? |
| 18:21.00 | vontrapp | until government gets it's grubby paws all in it some more and causes another crisis |
| 18:21.08 | Sargun_Screen | vontrapp: I've already seen freeze notices |
| 18:21.13 | harleypig | United Order |
| 18:21.15 | levi | harleypig: United Order? |
| 18:21.20 | Sargun_Screen | uo? |
| 18:21.22 | vontrapp | consecration |
| 18:21.23 | vontrapp | ya |
| 18:21.26 | harleypig | That's what it was ... yeah ... we should just implement the United Order. |
| 18:21.49 | vontrapp | ok harleypig, i'm in |
| 18:22.05 | harleypig | :] |
| 18:22.07 | vontrapp | but i'm not going to force anybody else in, if that's what you're looking for ;) |
| 18:22.38 | harleypig | Nah ... but if enough of us do it correctly, they'll have no choice but to join in. |
| 18:23.12 | vontrapp | sweet, who do we have so far? |
| 18:23.25 | harleypig | You'n'me. |
| 18:23.27 | vontrapp | Sargun_Screen: from who? banks? they make that choice on their own |
| 18:23.57 | vontrapp | hmm, i need to screenify |
| 18:24.26 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=vontrapp@vader.cs.byu.edu) |
| 18:24.26 | ibot | steals vontrapp's parking sticker |
| 18:24.34 | vontrapp | :( my sticker! |
| 18:24.58 | levi | vontrapp: Well, I think that you have a too-simplistic view on things, but I'm certainly not going to change your mind. |
| 18:25.16 | brasto | is there a sllug linked in group? |
| 18:25.36 | vontrapp | levi: i don't doubt the whole economy thing is very very complicated |
| 18:25.55 | vontrapp | i just doubt what anyone can usefully do to make it 'all better', so why even try? |
| 18:26.53 | vontrapp | the economy is going to settle on it's optimal configuration |
| 18:27.00 | vontrapp | like water flowing down hill |
| 18:27.18 | vontrapp | what we have now is like a giant dam built up, and the dam is about to break |
| 18:27.25 | vontrapp | the answer is not to build the dam bigger |
| 18:27.58 | levi | I agree somewhat with the dam analogy, but I don't think the 'bailout' is a 'build the dam bigger' approach. |
| 18:28.18 | vontrapp | *shrug*, that's exactly how i see it |
| 18:28.32 | levi | Well, I think you're wrong, but whatever. |
| 18:28.32 | vontrapp | it's more of the exact same thing |
| 18:28.54 | vontrapp | it's just finding one more 'last sucker' in the investment chain |
| 18:29.02 | vontrapp | and guess what, that last sucker is you and me |
| 18:29.25 | vontrapp | and not at any choice of my own, even as i know it's a bad move, and that's what really really irks me |
| 18:29.57 | vontrapp | the right thing for us to do, is get out from under the dam |
| 18:30.05 | vontrapp | buy securities, silver, have food storage, whatever |
| 18:30.21 | levi | I think your analogy is quickly wearing thin. |
| 18:30.33 | vontrapp | how so? |
| 18:30.47 | vontrapp | i'm just saying get yourself prepared for the inevitable |
| 18:30.59 | vontrapp | and if the inevitable doesn't actually happen, then your only so much the better off |
| 18:32.02 | levi | Sure, being prepared for disaster is always good. |
| 18:32.10 | vontrapp | levi: if i'm comparing the risk hiding of investments and mortgages as being a dam, then adding one more to the chain is indeed making the dam bigger |
| 18:32.52 | levi | I think the government buying up the troubled securities is more of a relief valve than a bigger dam. |
| 18:33.30 | levi | Those securities are incredibly undervalued at present. Effectively zero, because no one will buy them. Yet, they're backed by real property that still has value. |
| 18:34.59 | vontrapp | then let that value assert itself |
| 18:35.18 | vontrapp | a releif valve would be more like unpackaging the securities and reevaluating them on an individual basis |
| 18:35.34 | levi | There are two risks in the strategy that I see; first, that the relief valve isn't enough and things collapse anyway; and second, that the value of the securities won't come back up to the level that the gov't pays for them. |
| 18:35.37 | vontrapp | and i don't think the government would be very good at that |
| 18:36.22 | levi | vontrapp: The value can't assert itself, because the market is locked up. Buying them frees up the market, and allows the revaluation to happen. |
| 18:37.05 | vontrapp | or, if they were 'effectively zero' then wouldn't people buy them up if they actually had value? |
| 18:37.16 | vontrapp | oh yeah, people are afraid |
| 18:37.19 | vontrapp | well fear subsides |
| 18:37.35 | vontrapp | and gives way to savvy people with money making a killing |
| 18:38.16 | levi | Savvy people with money always make a killing at the market. That's what it's for. :P |
| 18:38.30 | vontrapp | again, so what do we need the government for?? |
| 18:39.58 | levi | It will take some time for the revaluation to happen, because there needs to be transparency that isn't there now. All the old risk models were broken, so no one knows just how much risk is in those securities. |
| 18:40.22 | vontrapp | exactly! so why do anything before we actually know what the risk really is? |
| 18:40.37 | levi | So, the government buyout of those allows the market to un-freeze, and gives some time for the risk evaluation to happen. |
| 18:40.42 | vontrapp | because in that time the world will end? i don't buy it |
| 18:40.53 | levi | Well, you're free to not buy it if you'd like. |
| 18:40.55 | vontrapp | why do we need to buy time? |
| 18:40.59 | vontrapp | that's what i don't understand |
| 18:41.16 | levi | Because financial institutions are highly leveraged and run on short-term loans. |
| 18:41.25 | levi | If they can't get more of those, they die. |
| 18:41.31 | vontrapp | i don't think it's all so apochalyptic as they make it out to be |
| 18:41.55 | vontrapp | or, if they are about to die, someone buys them |
| 18:41.57 | levi | Their failures have a cascading effect, because risk has been commoditized and spread out throughout the system. |
| 18:42.16 | levi | Well, assets get sold anyway, but at a very low price. |
| 18:43.03 | vontrapp | well, i think your buying into the philosophy that 'credit is the economys lifeblood' |
| 18:43.18 | vontrapp | which a _ton_ of people do, so i guess i can't blame you too much |
| 18:43.30 | *** part/#utah gdusbabek (n=gdusbabe@70.102.114.38) |
| 18:43.35 | levi | What used to appear to be very safe investments lose incredible amounts of value because of these failures, and when the collateral for highly-leveraged investments disappears, institutions need to replace it with cash, which means they need loans. |
| 18:43.36 | vontrapp | but i'll tell you what the real life blood is |
| 18:43.37 | vontrapp | capital |
| 18:43.43 | vontrapp | that's why it's called capitalism |
| 18:44.17 | levi | You're not even listening to me. |
| 18:44.36 | vontrapp | i am |
| 18:44.46 | vontrapp | i get it |
| 18:44.59 | vontrapp | institutions fail, bad news, ripple, blah blah |
| 18:45.07 | levi | I agree that credit shouldn't be the lifeblood of the economy to the extent that it is, but I think that institutions can learn from this without going completely out of business. |
| 18:45.11 | vontrapp | i don't doubt that that happens |
| 18:45.28 | vontrapp | i just don't agree with the problematic magnitude associated with it |
| 18:45.33 | levi | It most certainly does happen; it's been what's caused all the failures recently. |
| 18:46.12 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp25.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:46.13 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 18:46.13 | vontrapp | well, nobody dies when an institution goes under |
| 18:46.21 | vontrapp | people may lose jobs, but they can find new ones |
| 18:46.57 | levi | How can they find new ones when businesses are going under and tightening their belts? |
| 18:47.02 | levi | Businesses need credit to run, too. |
| 18:47.23 | levi | Startups need investments (i.e. credit) to get moving. |
| 18:47.33 | vontrapp | better businesses are started |
| 18:47.39 | vontrapp | good businesses survive |
| 18:48.07 | vontrapp | well, then we need to stop worrying about credit to the already failing institutions and reallocate it to the startups |
| 18:48.19 | levi | That's not how credit works. |
| 18:48.24 | vontrapp | this is what i'm talking about when i say it really is all very complicated |
| 18:48.32 | vontrapp | so nobody should pretend to have a solution |
| 18:48.54 | levi | Indeed, and you're happy to ignore the complexity and say that no one could possibly understand it well enough to make a positive change. |
| 18:49.02 | vontrapp | because any solution is going to have unforseen effects much greater than any effect they are supposed to have |
| 18:49.20 | unum | aaah the libertarian mantra |
| 18:49.35 | levi | Any solution will have unforseen effects, but it is not a foregone conclusion that they will be greater or that they will all be negative. |
| 18:49.36 | vontrapp | pouring more money into the crisis serves to divert that same money from actually productive pursuits |
| 18:50.07 | vontrapp | i didn't say the unforseen effects would be negative |
| 18:50.11 | vontrapp | you really don't know |
| 18:50.15 | levi | Pouring X into the crisis may mean that Y total is lost instead of Z total, for values of Y less than Z. |
| 18:50.19 | vontrapp | so you're really just shooting in the dark |
| 18:50.29 | levi | You're saying that not knowing means that there can't be educated guesses. |
| 18:50.35 | vontrapp | and i'm okay with shooting in the dark, if it's not somebody else shooting my money out there |
| 18:50.42 | levi | That no one could possibly make an informed decision because it's just too complex. |
| 18:50.48 | vontrapp | there can be educated guesses |
| 18:50.52 | vontrapp | but not with my money! |
| 18:51.02 | vontrapp | i will guess with my own money thankyouverymuch |
| 18:51.05 | levi | They're the representatives you elected, not just 'somebody else'. |
| 18:51.18 | vontrapp | i didn't elect them to spend my money |
| 18:51.23 | vontrapp | that's not within their defined powers! |
| 18:51.35 | levi | You don't get to choose what they do after they're elected, you only get to choose whether to elect them again or not. |
| 18:51.50 | vontrapp | and i already voted chris cannon out of there because i knew he would do just this sort of thing |
| 18:51.53 | unum | what do you mean it's not within their defined powers |
| 18:52.10 | unum | we apparantly we have different copies of the constitution.... |
| 18:52.11 | levi | unum: Don't get into an argument with a libertarian over the Constitution. It's not worth it. |
| 18:52.12 | vontrapp | unum, ever heard of the constitution? |
| 18:52.22 | unum | vontrapp: yep, read it all the time |
| 18:52.37 | vontrapp | well fine, where do they get that power then? |
| 18:52.41 | unum | do you really believe chaffetz will vote against spending increases? |
| 18:53.04 | unum | I would say article I off of the top of my head |
| 18:53.07 | vontrapp | where does it say, "congress shall spend taxpayer money into the private sector"? |
| 18:53.15 | unum | oh that's what you mean |
| 18:53.25 | unum | congress shall regulate interstate commerce |
| 18:53.28 | unum | this is regulation |
| 18:53.31 | vontrapp | that is what we've been talking about |
| 18:53.42 | vontrapp | no, no, i'm sorry, bailout != regulation |
| 18:53.48 | levi | unum: Clearly that's not what they meant! |
| 18:53.53 | vontrapp | if they would have regulated in the first place we wouldn't have this problem |
| 18:54.19 | levi | unum: You can't win an argument with libertarians because they've got a seeing-eye glass into the brains of the Founders. :P |
| 18:54.32 | vontrapp | rolls eyes |
| 18:54.35 | unum | I wish they would have regulated, but those stupid liberterians pushed them to stop doing that |
| 18:55.02 | unum | levi: you should have been there when I wask talking to a federal reserver hater that idiolized hamiliton |
| 18:55.03 | vontrapp | levi: you always do this, i try to have an honest discussion, then you just go off and say i'm a libertarian, i must be insane, end of discussion |
| 18:55.09 | unum | I just couldn't figure it out |
| 18:55.16 | levi | unum: That doesn't appear to make any sense. |
| 18:55.37 | vontrapp | unum: that really doesn't make any sense |
| 18:55.57 | unum | which part doesn't make sense? |
| 18:55.59 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, this was regulated in the first place, it's what caused the problem, very very poor regulation |
| 18:56.04 | levi | vontrapp: That comment was a bit out of line, but it's an expression of frustration I see with libertarian lines of argument. |
| 18:56.08 | Jayce^ | s/caused/started/ |
| 18:56.11 | unum | but I still say this falls under their power "to regulate commerce" |
| 18:56.13 | vontrapp | hamilton + federal reserve hater |
| 18:56.31 | vontrapp | levi: you are the one attacking me |
| 18:56.51 | unum | hamilton instituted the federal control of the monetary system, it was his greatest legacy |
| 18:57.12 | vontrapp | three yeras ago there were people telling us this was going to happen, and what regulation we needed to avoid it |
| 18:57.15 | levi | vontrapp: I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking libertarianism. You esouse it, do you not? |
| 18:57.20 | vontrapp | of course, they were just lunatics |
| 18:57.22 | levi | s/esouse/espouse/ |
| 18:57.25 | unum | so it's odd to me how you could idolize him and want to restorte things back to the way things were when he was involved in goverment, and still oppose a central banking system |
| 18:57.29 | Jayce^ | hamilton's monetary control was nothing like our federeal reserve though |
| 18:57.58 | unum | well this guy opposed all federal banking systems |
| 18:58.05 | vontrapp | unum: that's what doesn't make sense, that he would idolize hamilton |
| 18:58.16 | unum | vontrapp: it didn't make any sense to me either |
| 18:58.58 | unum | I tried to point out that it was illogical, but he figured he could just set aside hamilton main legacy and like him for thing that he never believed in |
| 18:59.02 | unum | it was bizarre |
| 19:00.15 | levi | unum: I've found that most of the people who argue from the authority of founding fathers have a very selective memory of who the 'founding fathers' were and what they did and said. |
| 19:00.20 | unum | I would even say the bail out is relate to regulating the value of money |
| 19:00.30 | unum | s/relate/related |
| 19:00.55 | unum | levi: that's true. most people seem to have no idea that they were not of one mind |
| 19:01.38 | unum | in fact many historians claim that the constitution is intentially ambigious so they could continue to argue about the things they didn't agree on |
| 19:02.27 | levi | For example, championing Thomas Jefferson's libertarian ideals, and ignoring his desire for taxpayer funded public schools, canals, and roadways. |
| 19:02.28 | vontrapp | i don't pretend to argue from the authority of the founding fathers themselves, just the documents they produced |
| 19:03.09 | unum | I argue from the actions they caried out as elected official as well |
| 19:03.14 | levi | vontrapp: Well, most libertarian interpretations of the documents rely heavily on arguments from the views of the founding fathers. |
| 19:03.48 | vontrapp | ok |
| 19:03.56 | vontrapp | i guess you have done a study on that |
| 19:03.57 | unum | the constitution it self is very open to interpetation, which is why they created a supreme court.... |
| 19:04.30 | unum | so you can't argue just from it. the supreme court looks at actions and other document from the founding fathers |
| 19:04.32 | levi | unum: Well, it's not clear that they indended the supreme court to judge what the constitution meant. |
| 19:04.36 | vontrapp | fwiw, the crowds i hang with don't talk a lot at all about how this or that founding father felt |
| 19:04.53 | levi | vontrapp: You wouldn't need to, if you all agree on the principles anyway. |
| 19:05.17 | levi | vontrapp: Those kinds of arguments are mostly used in attempt to convince people who don't agree. |
| 19:05.33 | vontrapp | well, you won't see such arguments from me |
| 19:05.45 | levi | I.e., apologetic arguments instead of inner-circle discussion. |
| 19:06.04 | unum | vontrapp: earlier you told me congress had no authority to buy mortagages |
| 19:06.17 | unum | and you said that was according to the constitution |
| 19:06.22 | levi | Anyway, my disagreements with libertarianism start at a more fundamental level than that. |
| 19:06.33 | vontrapp | unum: i suppose by some extremely loose interpretation of the constitution you could say they have that authority |
| 19:06.40 | vontrapp | i don't believe in interpreting it that loosely |
| 19:07.07 | levi | And I think the arguments from authority of the founding fathers are more of a ex-post-facto justification than a source of libertarian thinking. |
| 19:07.26 | vontrapp | "any power not expressly provided shall remain to the states" (or something like that) |
| 19:07.58 | unum | I think it cleary comes under the regulation of the value of money.... |
| 19:08.18 | unum | but anyways it all comes down to interpetation, what makes your interpetation more correct then mine? |
| 19:08.24 | vontrapp | levi: then you should be able to argue completely based on your own views, rather than 'libertarians are nutjob self proclaimed mind readers' |
| 19:08.54 | vontrapp | my interpretation doesn't take away your money |
| 19:08.57 | levi | vontrapp: There was a great deal of contention over how much power the federal government should have vs. the states, and I think both the vagueness of the expressed powers and the specificity of the clause you paraphrased were designed to get a compromise document to be accepted. |
| 19:09.22 | vontrapp | exactly, the compromise is already _in_ the constitution |
| 19:09.28 | levi | vontrapp: Arguing against something doesn't mean I can't argue for something else. |
| 19:09.30 | vontrapp | they already compromised |
| 19:09.46 | levi | Yes, but the compromise is fuzzy. |
| 19:09.53 | vontrapp | but not that fuzzy |
| 19:09.57 | levi | So you say. |
| 19:10.13 | vontrapp | well, what makes your interpretation more right than mine then? |
| 19:10.16 | levi | But you are not in charge of interpreting the constitution for the government. |
| 19:10.37 | levi | Nothing makes *my* interpretation more right, but it is clear to me that there is no *definitive* interpretation. |
| 19:10.53 | vontrapp | levi: well, i am certainly not comfortable with the idea that elected officials can do whatever the hell they want once elected |
| 19:11.06 | vontrapp | i have to have some idea of what they can and can't do before i vote them in |
| 19:11.20 | levi | People who devote their entire lives to understanding and interpreting the constitution disagree on these sorts of interpretations. |
| 19:11.59 | levi | vontrapp: Then you should vote for people who believe in the sort of interpretation that you do. |
| 19:12.24 | levi | But keep in mind that the people who disagree with you on that point are not definitively wrong by the text of the Constitution. |
| 19:12.38 | unum | most importantly you need a president who will appoint those sort of supreme court justices |
| 19:13.02 | levi | This ends up being handled by democratic means rather than appeal to the text. |
| 19:14.20 | unum | exactly |
| 19:14.23 | vontrapp | levi: i would be completely fine with that if people were completely informed and involved in the democratic process |
| 19:14.26 | vontrapp | fact is, they aren't |
| 19:14.47 | unum | vontrapp: do you say people are not informed because they disagree with your interpetation |
| 19:14.52 | vontrapp | i know this because i was nearly completely apathetic up until this last year |
| 19:14.59 | unum | or because they elect people like Orrin Hatch :) |
| 19:15.13 | vontrapp | unum: yeah, the hatch part |
| 19:15.40 | unum | I'm suprised how many people can't name their US congressman |
| 19:15.41 | vontrapp | last election i was only just conscious enough to know not to vote a straight ticket |
| 19:16.16 | unum | the vast majority of people have no idea what their state representative does |
| 19:16.20 | vontrapp | because, well, the utgop is quite literally a cartel |
| 19:16.49 | levi | Utah politics is pretty screwed up. |
| 19:16.49 | unum | my state rep was out campaigning last night and people kept going off on him about the bail out |
| 19:17.36 | unum | I blame those of you represented by brambles |
| 19:17.50 | vontrapp | so, because people can be pretty stupid about who they elect, i think it's important the elected officials have _some_ bounds with what they can and can't do |
| 19:18.02 | unum | they do have some bounds. |
| 19:18.02 | vontrapp | hence, a not so loose interpretation of the constitution |
| 19:18.26 | unum | but that still doesn't bind most of our elected officials |
| 19:18.52 | vontrapp | well, because they don't even need to interpret the constition anymore, they just outright ignore it |
| 19:19.12 | unum | I meant the constitution only applies to federal officials |
| 19:19.19 | vontrapp | well yeah |
| 19:19.25 | unum | well the basic rights now apply to state officials |
| 19:20.06 | levi | Our law, though based on the constitution, is also very strongly a common law tradition that values precedent. One does not need to make an appeal all the way back to the constitution to make a decision. |
| 19:20.12 | vontrapp | the fed constitution does still apply in the states, and i think that's one of the reasons it is left fuzzy |
| 19:20.19 | vontrapp | to give wiggle room to the states |
| 19:20.21 | Tene | rakudo now passes 705 more tests than it did last week. -- http://rakudo.de/ |
| 19:20.23 | unum | still? |
| 19:20.28 | vontrapp | not necessarily to the federal government |
| 19:20.37 | levi | Tene: Cool. :) |
| 19:20.47 | levi | Tene: rakudo = the perl 6 implementation on parrot, right? |
| 19:20.49 | vontrapp | unum: you know what i mean |
| 19:21.04 | unum | parts of the constitution apply to the states |
| 19:21.04 | Tene | Right. |
| 19:21.07 | unum | most of it does not |
| 19:21.26 | vontrapp | of course, clauses specifically about the powers of the federal government do not |
| 19:21.31 | unum | until after the civil war the constitution placed very few limits on states rights |
| 19:21.36 | vontrapp | because states aren't fed government |
| 19:21.38 | vontrapp | that much is obvious |
| 19:22.00 | unum | that's why you could pass a law stating members of a certain religion were to be shot |
| 19:22.12 | Tene | levi: 4831 passing tests right now, looks like |
| 19:22.14 | unum | states had the right to do that before the civil war |
| 19:22.29 | Tene | over 193 files |
| 19:22.53 | vontrapp | did they have the right? or just escape oversight? |
| 19:22.58 | levi | Tene: How many tests left? |
| 19:23.27 | Tene | Unsure. The test suite still has a way to grow. |
| 19:23.33 | unum | vontrapp: they had the right. |
| 19:24.04 | vontrapp | i don't buy that |
| 19:24.27 | vontrapp | the constitution is pretty darn clear on human rights |
| 19:24.57 | unum | vontrapp: the constitution only applied to the federal government |
| 19:25.03 | vontrapp | bs |
| 19:25.13 | unum | and actualy it only mentions one right that I can remember, prior to the ammendments |
| 19:25.16 | vontrapp | the states are part of the union, are they not? |
| 19:25.24 | vontrapp | the constitution is the charter of said union |
| 19:25.30 | unum | but then the 14 ammendmend applied all the rights to the states |
| 19:25.54 | unum | but look at the ammendments. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. |
| 19:26.01 | levi | The first 10 amendments were added before the ratification of the constitution. |
| 19:26.06 | unum | it means the federal congress |
| 19:26.10 | unum | levi: no they weren't |
| 19:26.58 | vontrapp | just because nobody wanted to challenge the extermination laws doesn't mean the states had the 'right' |
| 19:27.30 | vontrapp | indeed it was because nobody challenged (or was able to challenge) that things like the 14th ammendment became necessary |
| 19:27.37 | levi | They were proposed before ratification, anyway. |
| 19:27.45 | vontrapp | so it comes down again to an overly loose interpretation of the constitution |
| 19:27.58 | vontrapp | the same thing you're fighting for today |
| 19:28.12 | Lone_Wanderer | What are you guys talking about? |
| 19:28.19 | unum | in this case I would say it came from an overly stict interpetation |
| 19:28.22 | vontrapp | i'd hate to think you would have been one defending the extermination states because you felt the constitution was 'loose' |
| 19:28.27 | unum | the same thing I'm fighting against |
| 19:28.30 | Lone_Wanderer | Because you're all wrong, unless you agree with me in which case you're a genius. |
| 19:28.54 | vontrapp | no, a strict interpretation would say 'humans have rights' |
| 19:29.33 | vontrapp | and a loose interpretation would be 'humans have rights [except where the states disagree, because this document is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo that essentially applies to noone]" |
| 19:30.26 | unum | vontrapp: no where in the constitution does it say "humans have rights" |
| 19:30.31 | unum | you're just making stuff up now |
| 19:30.35 | vontrapp | of course i'm paraphrasing |
| 19:30.45 | levi | I think he's borrowing from the Declaration of Independence as well. |
| 19:30.59 | unum | in the first ammendment it talks about what congress CAN'T do |
| 19:31.13 | unum | so a strict interpetation would mean the federal congress can't do it |
| 19:31.14 | Lone_Wanderer | Hey, speaking of rights... |
| 19:31.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I know you need a license to carry a concealed weapon, but if I wanted to carry (for example) a high powered rifle in plain sight when I go to McDonalds, would that be okay? |
| 19:31.46 | levi | vontrapp: And there's a difference between state/federal power balance and strict/loose interpretation. |
| 19:31.58 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: look up open carry laws |
| 19:32.03 | unum | but arguably yes. |
| 19:32.15 | levi | vontrapp: A stricter interpretation can lead to more state (vs federal) authority. |
| 19:32.20 | Lone_Wanderer | I wonder if there's a limit to the number of weapons a person can openly carry. |
| 19:32.22 | vontrapp | well, mcdonalds has the right to refuse you entry |
| 19:32.43 | unum | by the way barron vs baltimore is the case that said only the federal goverment was limited by the bill of rights |
| 19:32.53 | Lone_Wanderer | Oh, sure. But I bet I could find a place that would let me in carrying a rifle, with a shotgun strapped to my back, and pistols and knives all over. |
| 19:33.02 | Lone_Wanderer | ...it might take a while though |
| 19:33.16 | vontrapp | well sure :) |
| 19:33.25 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: I think there is a utah state rep that carries his weapon openly on his hip where ever he goes |
| 19:33.25 | vontrapp | just don't shoot anyone :p |
| 19:33.59 | Tene | vontrapp: I know there are places where shooting the right type of people would make you more welcome rather than less. |
| 19:34.07 | levi | Unless you're in Texas and you've got a bunch of kids that broke into your mobile home to steal twinkies on the floor begging for mercy. |
| 19:35.06 | Lone_Wanderer | My old roommate swears up and down that "he needed killin'" was an acceptable defense in Texas up until the 60s or so. |
| 19:35.31 | levi | Apparently it still is, if he's in your home and you don't want him there. |
| 19:35.33 | Lone_Wanderer | (This is the same guy who cut himself and drew a frowny face on his orange with the blood, then proceeded to have a conversation with it.) |
| 19:35.52 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah but then the defense is "He was in my home and I didn't want him there", not "He needed killin'" |
| 19:36.09 | vontrapp | levi: of course |
| 19:36.11 | vontrapp | it's your home |
| 19:36.31 | vontrapp | that's not to say you can invite him in and then shoot him |
| 19:37.00 | levi | I don't agree that one's right to life necessarily and in all cases terminates upon tresspass. |
| 19:37.24 | unum | levi: I'm with you. |
| 19:37.39 | levi | But hardline Libertarians do, for the most part. |
| 19:37.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Did anyone here say that, levi, or are you just making a statement? |
| 19:37.45 | vontrapp | what about the right to not get shot? |
| 19:37.56 | unum | if that guy in west valley had managed to shoot the intruder instead of the other way around I think he should have gone to trial for it |
| 19:38.13 | levi | vontrapp: Oh, I definitely believe self defense is justifiable. |
| 19:38.37 | Lone_Wanderer | What happened with the guy in west valley? |
| 19:38.39 | vontrapp | what i say is that you have the right to defend your property |
| 19:38.49 | unum | but if you have to sneak back into your home in order to get your gun so you can shoot the guy, it's not self defense |
| 19:38.51 | vontrapp | if killing the guy is what it takes, then so be it |
| 19:39.11 | unum | legally you don't have the right to kill to protect property, ask schanze |
| 19:39.17 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 19:39.19 | vontrapp | so yeah, have a trial, see if you really had to shoot him |
| 19:39.33 | vontrapp | but the benefit of the doubt should be on the defender |
| 19:40.12 | vontrapp | ok, then shoot him, without intending to kill ;) |
| 19:40.14 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: I can't find the article, but they guy came home and saw that he was being robbed, so he went in his house to get his gun and congront the intruder |
| 19:40.30 | vontrapp | congront, eh? |
| 19:40.36 | vontrapp | :p |
| 19:40.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Your statement seems to indicate that he ended up getting shot. |
| 19:40.56 | unum | ya it's a special word mean congront with a gun in your hand :) |
| 19:41.07 | levi | vontrapp: The guy in Texas had three kids on the floor begging for their lives, and he shot one of them in the back with his shotgun. |
| 19:41.10 | vontrapp | unum: that makes perfect sense, if you confront him (which you have a right to do) then you would want to be prepared to defend yourself (also within your rights) |
| 19:41.13 | Lone_Wanderer | congront is a special case of itself? :D |
| 19:41.17 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: ya the intruder hid behind the door, and knocked him down and took his gun and shot him |
| 19:41.22 | unum | then he called 911 |
| 19:41.34 | Lone_Wanderer | the intruder did or the home owner? |
| 19:41.44 | unum | the home owner. |
| 19:41.54 | vontrapp | levi: of course that's horrible, and the guy should be held accountable for not allowing them to leave or whatever |
| 19:41.55 | unum | we was just shot in the shoulder |
| 19:42.03 | Lone_Wanderer | I like to think that if I was breaking into someone's house, and I shot them, that I'd be nice enough to call 911. |
| 19:42.22 | Lone_Wanderer | And be like "Hey, I shot this guy, might want to send an ambulance bye!" then run away quick. |
| 19:42.24 | levi | vontrapp: He wasn't held accountable. His actions were justifiable under Texas law, apparently. |
| 19:42.29 | unum | vontrapp: currently you do not have a legal right to threaten someone with a gun if they threaten your property |
| 19:42.46 | Lone_Wanderer | But if I were the kind of guy who would break into someone's house and steal them, I probably wouldn't be the kind of guy to stick around and make sure he didn't die. |
| 19:43.27 | mrpull | you joke, but my landlord killed his wife and called 911 to have them come pick him up |
| 19:43.44 | vontrapp | pick him up, or her? |
| 19:43.45 | Lone_Wanderer | So if someone's smashing up my car with a baseball bat, my options are... to call the cops and watch the guys finish the job while the police arrive? |
| 19:43.49 | mrpull | well, both |
| 19:44.00 | unum | Lone_Wanderer: yep |
| 19:44.04 | Lone_Wanderer | mrpull: crime of passion and afterward went "omfg what have I done?" ? |
| 19:44.13 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, yes, it's property, you can't do a thing about it.. |
| 19:44.16 | Jayce^ | even in UT |
| 19:44.21 | mrpull | I think so. he killed her in front of their 2 year old |
| 19:44.33 | Lone_Wanderer | So if someone's breaking my stuff... it's illegal for me to, say, tackle them with my bare hands and hold them down while the cops arrive? |
| 19:44.45 | unum | that's what dale shanze was charged with a while ago. someone threaten his car and he pulled out a gun. |
| 19:44.45 | Jayce^ | now, if there was a kid in it, or if you were in it and they were trying to *take* the car, not just damage, then you can do something |
| 19:44.59 | mrpull | the 2 year old was freaking out when the cops / ambulance came... gosh we are coming up on the 10 year aniversary of that event |
| 19:45.00 | Lone_Wanderer | Yeah I remember that. He just needed to be locked up anyway though. |
| 19:45.13 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm wondering if there's a distinction between lethal and non-lethal force though. |
| 19:45.18 | unum | you might be allowed to tackle but not use lethal force |
| 19:45.22 | Jayce^ | unum, there was a lot more than that.. he instigated the issue, and pulled to the side for a confrontation.. changes the rules |
| 19:45.32 | unum | Jayce^: that's true |
| 19:45.33 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, they can still sue you |
| 19:45.43 | Lone_Wanderer | Well, of course. |
| 19:45.43 | vontrapp | a gun isn't lethal if you shoot the foot |
| 19:45.58 | harleypig | This is why you need an acid bath in your sub-cellar |
| 19:46.07 | tensai | vontrapp: it is if the foot gets infected |
| 19:46.09 | Jayce^ | in UT, if you have a concealed permit, if there is a *felony* in progress, you can use force |
| 19:46.11 | Lone_Wanderer | I think that using a gun, even to shoot them in the foot, is still considered to be intent to kill, or something like that. |
| 19:46.11 | unum | I'd have to pretty close to aim for the foot and hit. |
| 19:46.20 | unum | close enough that they could take the gun from me |
| 19:46.28 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, still can be argued, it's plausibly lethal even by accident :) |
| 19:46.47 | Lone_Wanderer | Jayce^: What kind of force? |
| 19:46.55 | unum | so if they are kicking your dog you can now pull out your gun? |
| 19:46.58 | vontrapp | is walking up to the burgler casually holding the gun considered "threatening"? |
| 19:47.07 | harleypig | I thought, except under certain circumstances, the assumption was "if you fire your weapon you're shooting to kill" |
| 19:47.09 | vontrapp | well, not right up to, of course, don't want him to take it |
| 19:47.10 | Jayce^ | harleypig, no you don't, in UT we're a castle law state.. once they cross the threshhold you can take 'em out, just remember not to say too much which can be sued for |
| 19:47.24 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, lethal |
| 19:47.27 | Lone_Wanderer | I guess that makes sense. If you stumble upon a violent crime, you *should* be able to do something about it. |
| 19:47.27 | unum | vontrapp: yes, you can be charged for brandishing a weapon |
| 19:47.31 | harleypig | Jayce^: Yeah, but why ask for trouble ... just get rid of the evidence completely. |
| 19:47.37 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, it isn't that way in many states |
| 19:47.41 | Jayce^ | at least now |
| 19:47.45 | vontrapp | i thought we decided it was legal to walk around with rifles and shotguns? |
| 19:47.50 | Lone_Wanderer | That's completely, completely stupid. |
| 19:48.09 | Jayce^ | harleypig, it's kinda like how they used to leave criminals bodies on the gallows, or heads on pikes :) sends the warning :) |
| 19:48.33 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, pistols too, in UT, they just cannot be concealed in any manner, and you may not have a round chambered |
| 19:48.45 | Jayce^ | unless you have your CCW |
| 19:49.02 | Lone_Wanderer | magazine in but no round chambered is okay though? |
| 19:49.07 | vontrapp | i didn't say conceal it, i said walk into the room holding it 'casually' |
| 19:49.08 | Jayce^ | in UT, yes |
| 19:49.17 | Lone_Wanderer | wouldn't walk around with a round chambered anyway, that's just asking for a negligent discharge. |
| 19:49.18 | vontrapp | and then say 'get out' |
| 19:49.21 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, right, I was just clarifying the limits |
| 19:49.27 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, depends on your weapon |
| 19:49.30 | harleypig | Jayce^: yeah, but ... hanging them from the eaves would get kinda stinky after a while. |
| 19:49.38 | Lone_Wanderer | What do you mean Jayce^? |
| 19:49.41 | vontrapp | but is that 'threatening' or 'brandishing'? |
| 19:49.57 | Jayce^ | Lone_Wanderer, some weapons are fine leaving charged, just depends on the action of the weapon |
| 19:50.21 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, can be argued, depends on the lawyers, so you know you're screwed no matter what |
| 19:50.31 | Lone_Wanderer | Hey, speaking of all this legal mumbo jumbo... does anyone know if it has ever been attempted to codify legal decisions in some kind of structured language |
| 19:50.49 | Sargun | structured language = ASM, C? |
| 19:50.50 | Sargun | ;-P |
| 19:51.09 | Lone_Wanderer | then put an entire state's legal history into a database in this language, and then mine it to look for decisions that apply to a case you're working on? |
| 19:51.21 | Lone_Wanderer | I mean "language" in the.... GEB sense, kind of. |
| 19:51.51 | Lone_Wanderer | Just some formal structure that accurately represents legal decisions (and the reasoning behind them of course) and that can be manipulated while preserving the meaning. |
| 19:51.54 | harleypig | Lone_Wanderer: interesting concept ... you'd be better off writing a 'legalese' parser though ... |
| 19:52.08 | harleypig | massaging the output from that ... |
| 19:52.20 | harleypig | then putting into a digital form. |
| 19:52.28 | harleypig | but I don't think db format would work. |
| 19:52.36 | Jayce^ | it's all in the massaging |
| 19:52.41 | Lone_Wanderer | If you could do that then you could put a judge's entire history into this thing and go "Hey, in cases where X argument is made he sides with issues like ours 80% of the time, but he's only had 50 of them in the past 50 years so I bet nobody noticed..." |
| 19:52.46 | vontrapp | ~massage harleypig |
| 19:52.56 | Lone_Wanderer | Well maybe not an RDBMS but you know what I mean. |
| 19:52.58 | harleypig | :] |
| 19:53.17 | harleypig | Lone_Wanderer: yeah ... i'm just not sure what type of format the final data shoudl take... |
| 19:53.22 | Lone_Wanderer | shrugs. |
| 19:53.25 | Lone_Wanderer | Me neither. |
| 19:53.43 | Lone_Wanderer | I'd be kind of surprised if nobody had thought of something like that though. I should ask my lawyer friends. |
| 19:55.29 | Sargun | Lawyers are not friends. |
| 19:57.55 | tensai | if I didn't think you were trolling I would explain why that's naive |
| 19:58.56 | levi | Sarguns are not friends. |
| 20:00.58 | Sargun | I was joking. |
| 20:01.38 | *** join/#utah dilvie (n=chatzill@c-67-166-126-92.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:02.28 | Lone_Wanderer | tensai: I'm not trolling, why is it naive? |
| 20:03.33 | fozzmoo | Bingo. http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/index.html |
| 20:03.38 | brac | [Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer - CNN.com] |
| 20:08.39 | harleypig | fozzmoo: I agree with the article ... it's well thought out and simple, and leaves those responsible holding the bag |
| 20:08.45 | harleypig | which means it's not going to happen. |
| 20:08.52 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 20:14.09 | tensai | Lone_Wanderer: did you see the "never talk to a cop" video that surfaced a couple months ago? |
| 20:14.36 | Lone_Wanderer | I don't think so, no. |
| 20:15.26 | tensai | http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/07/eight-reasons-even-innocent-shouldnt.html |
| 20:15.28 | brac | [Disloyal Opposition: Eight reasons even the innocent shouldn't talk to the police] |
| 20:15.58 | tensai | and even someone who is guilty of a crime deserves a fair trial |
| 20:16.37 | Lone_Wanderer | Fascinating. |
| 20:16.37 | tensai | I discussed that video with a friend of mine who is a criminal defense attorney and he completely agreed, with plenty of anecdotes |
| 20:16.41 | Lone_Wanderer | I'm going to have to watch this. |
| 20:16.52 | Lone_Wanderer | So if I get pulled over, do I call my lawyer and hand the phone to the cop, or what? |
| 20:18.41 | tensai | that seems a bit difficult to me. but do keep in mind that if you admit to going 5 over, he can write you up for that even if it's not true. |
| 20:19.19 | tensai | or 25 over, as the case may be |
| 20:22.06 | Lone_Wanderer | This guy talks really fast. |
| 20:22.16 | Lone_Wanderer | I can tell he used to be a lawyer. |
| 20:22.25 | tensai | easier to confuse the judge that way :) |
| 20:24.20 | harleypig | that's why, when the cop asks "do you know why I pulled you over" you say "why, no officer, why did you pull me over?" |
| 20:25.33 | tensai | exactly |
| 20:25.57 | eggyknap | Whatever you want, actually. Our mantech connection from that box was messed up, and is (hopefully) better now. It's better defined anyway. |
| 20:26.01 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@ip-64-32-192-35.iad.megapath.net) |
| 20:26.12 | harleypig | mantech? |
| 20:26.17 | tensai | manbeef? |
| 20:26.21 | harleypig | is that like teledildonics? |
| 20:26.34 | eggyknap | Sry :) wrong window |
| 20:26.48 | eggyknap | Um... don't you wish. |
| 20:27.12 | eggyknap | Mantech == overfunded teeny West Virginia computer group that messes up a particular federal project I'm involved in. |
| 20:27.15 | harleypig | nah ... not interested in web enabled dildos |
| 20:27.39 | eggyknap | Boy am I glad to hear that :) |
| 20:27.58 | harleypig | though ... a web enable RealDoll might be interesting. |
| 20:28.08 | harleypig | s/e R/ed R/ |
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| 20:30.19 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 20:31.37 | levi | fozzmoo: Wow, a Libertarian says the bailout is a bad idea. What kind of bingo are we playing, ideologically accurate bingo where you put a token on the card whenever a guy says something you'd expect him to given his ideology? |
| 20:38.42 | Lone_Wanderer | Can anyone give me some examples of a situation where you'd have a lot of data to store but putting it in an RDBMS wouldn't be a good idea? |
| 20:39.26 | Lone_Wanderer | Assuming that you want the data to be searchable. |
| 20:40.20 | *** part/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@ip-64-32-192-35.iad.megapath.net) |
| 20:45.02 | tensai | Lone_Wanderer: ldap directories are optimized for read access. so if your data is seldom written (say a user database), an ldap directory may be better than a relational database |
| 20:47.18 | tensai | ~lart tensai's flakey wireles Internet |
| 20:47.18 | ibot | keeps mailing tensai's flakey wireles Internet free America Online CDs until he drowns |
| 20:48.39 | eggyknap | Lone_Wanderer: if you want things like full text search, or have other sorts of specific search criteria (e.g. Google), you probably want specialized search software. |
| 20:49.15 | eggyknap | At $day_job, I've got ~30GB of product data that needs to be searchable on a website. We use Lucene to search it, not a database. |
| 21:00.25 | Sargun | uhm. |
| 21:00.29 | Sargun | Cool. |
| 21:13.15 | fozzmoo | levi: I didn't research the guy's political background. It wasn't FOX, Heritage Foundation, Town Hall, etc. It was well written and made a number of good points. It seems almost no article meets your approval as a valid source of consideration. |
| 21:13.52 | fozzmoo | (And it wasn't Glenn Beck! Holy cow!) |
| 21:15.23 | Sargun | You are obsessed with Glenn Beck, aren't you? |
| 21:15.43 | harleypig | Glenn Beck is coming the McKay events center. |
| 21:15.53 | mrpull | Lone_Wanderer: are you familiar with Round Robin Databases (RRDTool)? That is a good example where I've observed a performance gain by not using RDBMS. |
| 21:16.06 | levi | fozzmoo: It's an article worthy of consideration, but not an article worthy of 'bingo!' |
| 21:16.21 | fozzmoo | I guess that's subjective. It was Bingo for me. |
| 21:17.09 | mrpull | I've had a couple NMS tools that were MS SQL based that just crapped out on hefty hardware when similar functions backed by RRD's on lowend hardware kept plugging along |
| 21:17.30 | harleypig | Perhaps it said something for you that you felt you couldn't say as succintly |
| 21:17.55 | levi | fozzmoo: Given the fact that economists, businesspeople, and politicians all disagree about this, I don't think there's a 'bingo!' argument to be found. |
| 21:18.24 | harleypig | levi: perhaps you both have different definitions of what bingo means. |
| 21:18.34 | fozzmoo | Maybe the politicians should quit thinking they know what to do, and listen to the economists and/or the business people. |
| 21:18.41 | levi | fozzmoo: He's got a point, but it's one point to be balanced against all the other guys with points. The fact is that none of them are clear winners. |
| 21:19.17 | fozzmoo | True. One view might be a winning strategy for people who are also Constitutional originalists.... |
| 21:19.18 | harleypig | levi: so what you're saying is, it's a bed of nails and now we have to figure out how to sleep on it without perforating our carcasses. |
| 21:19.26 | fozzmoo | Well, I don't think I need to go any further down that road. |
| 21:19.54 | levi | fozzmoo: The politicians *are* talking to economists and businesspeople. The problem is that the economists and businesspeople aren't a coherent group; they're giving different answers too. |
| 21:20.16 | levi | harleypig: Pretty much. |
| 21:20.54 | harleypig | It seems to me that a gordian solution is needed for this financial gordian knot. |
| 21:22.15 | levi | fozzmoo: My point is that finding a single economist (or even a few of them) that believes government inaction is the best way forward is not an indicator that all (or even most) economists agree with them. |
| 21:23.00 | levi | If you'd posted that saying something like, 'this economist clearly articulates my view of the situation' then I'd have no quarrel with what you said. |
| 21:23.05 | mrpull | Lone_Wanderer: doh, I didn't see your second caveat before I went on about RRD's |
| 21:23.26 | levi | Though I'd probably still point out that other economists disagree. |
| 21:33.05 | fozzmoo | I thought I did say that. I said, "Bingo!" |
| 21:33.10 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 21:35.12 | harleypig | see ... you guys do seem to have different definitions for the word 'bingo' |
| 21:35.33 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
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| 21:39.20 | harleypig | sure it does ... I define it, so it means what I think it means. |
| 21:39.29 | harleypig | blue is scratchy |
| 21:46.53 | goozbach | harleypig: everybody knows that |
| 21:58.22 | harleypig | heh |
| 22:04.06 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@adsl-75-13-71-2.dsl.mrdnct.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:06.57 | mrpull | "Hey Chester, what's your least favorite emotion?" "Itchy." |
| 22:10.45 | herlo | http://blog.rhatters.org/2008/09/30/solution-to-financial-bail-out/ <-- now there's a bail out plan |
| 22:15.02 | high_roller | what ever politician that actually did that plan would probably be voted in some office or another for the rest of their lives |
| 22:15.04 | Jayce^ | email forwards turn to blog posts... |
| 22:16.19 | herlo | lol |
| 22:16.20 | levi | Heh, yeah. |
| 22:16.21 | herlo | coudl be |
| 22:16.37 | levi | My mom forwarded that to me a few days ago. |
| 22:16.44 | herlo | levi: you made that part up |
| 22:16.55 | levi | Did not. Look at the channel logs. |
| 22:17.17 | herlo | haha, you sound like a kid stomping the sand 'Did not!' |
| 22:17.21 | herlo | but I believe you |
| 22:17.57 | Tene | I remember it. |
| 22:18.45 | tensai | the math is all wrong |
| 22:19.17 | tensai | 85B/200M = 425, not 425K |
| 22:19.55 | levi | It was originally from this guy: http://birkblog.typepad.com/ |
| 22:21.28 | levi | Apparently it was an experiment to see who would 'do the math'. |
| 22:21.34 | tensai | yay! I won! |
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| 22:22.47 | herlo | lol, I did it as well, just didn't post it |
| 22:24.41 | macnewbold | yeah, I bet you could pay off a really small house with that though |
| 22:24.45 | macnewbold | maybe cardboard? |
| 22:24.58 | macnewbold | or MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) if you're lucky? |
| 22:26.52 | herlo | ~me farts in macnewbold's direction |
| 22:28.16 | tensai | careful. you'll knock his house over. |
| 22:28.37 | harleypig | $700B / 200M = $3500 ... that's workable, right? |
| 22:28.47 | harleypig | I could buy a new used car ... |
| 22:29.13 | unum | I couldn't pay off my current "new" used car |
| 22:29.44 | harleypig | well, let's up the ante ... you have to be registered to vote |
| 22:29.51 | harleypig | That should increase the ratio |
| 22:29.59 | harleypig | $700B / 200 |
| 22:32.19 | macnewbold | ~lart herlo |
| 22:32.19 | ibot | whips out his power stapler and staples herlo's foot to the floor |
| 22:42.39 | *** join/#utah mrpull (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 22:43.18 | herlo | ~simpsons macnewbold |
| 22:43.26 | herlo | ~mancard macnewbold |
| 22:43.37 | herlo | ~lart macnewbold |
| 22:43.37 | ibot | blasts macnewbold to oblivion with a kamehameha wave |
| 22:43.54 | macnewbold | ~mancard herlo |
| 22:44.00 | herlo | lol |
| 22:44.02 | herlo | its not there |
| 22:44.45 | macnewbold | noooooooooo! |
| 22:44.49 | macnewbold | no more mancard? |
| 22:47.36 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@137.65.120.27) |
| 22:56.32 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=linuxali@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 22:56.53 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@137.65.120.27) |
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| 23:03.50 | herlo | ugh! |
| 23:15.57 | linuxalien | Front Runner FTW |
| 23:32.08 | Great | doh |
| 23:32.50 | linuxalien | a dear |
| 23:32.55 | linuxalien | a female deer |
| 23:32.57 | linuxalien | lol |
| 23:32.58 | linuxalien | oops |
| 23:33.01 | linuxalien | wrong first spelling |
| 23:34.15 | brasto_away | thinks 'cool name, linuxalien' as he walks away from his computer for a while |
| 23:36.32 | linuxalien | Thanks :) |
