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| 01:32.58 | Heartsbane | sllug meeting streaming @ http://stream.utos.org:8080/ |
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| 01:37.07 | unum | hi sargun |
| 01:37.17 | Sargun | hi unum |
| 02:31.21 | eightyeight | hi ibot |
| 02:31.55 | dilvie | who is eitghtyeight? |
| 02:33.04 | jsmith-away | The ex-atoponce, I think :-) |
| 02:37.04 | eightyeight | nod |
| 02:37.05 | eightyeight | http://pixdaus.com/single.php?id=8411 |
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| 04:55.31 | levi | So, I posted a link here about some random girl selling her virginity a day or two ago. This girl has one-upped her, I think: http://mysterytopia.com/2008/09/italian-model-offers-virginity-for-15m.html |
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| 05:28.12 | fozzmoo | This flies in the face of the notion that virginity isn't anything worth holding onto. |
| 05:29.04 | levi | She's Catholic, I'm pretty sure they still at least nominally believe in abstinence before marriage. |
| 05:31.05 | fozzmoo | My wife's sister is studying architecture in Italy right now. Religious observance apparently is pretty rare there, apparently, despite the fact it's the home of the Vatican. |
| 05:31.15 | fozzmoo | nonetheless... this is still bizarre. |
| 05:31.52 | levi | Actually believing in abstinence is pretty rare here too for hot young girls. ;) |
| 05:32.47 | fozzmoo | Next it'll be "You could be the second man to have Raffella Fico... for only $995,145." |
| 05:33.10 | fozzmoo | I wonder what the going rate would be to be #2 in line. |
| 05:34.47 | levi | Depends on the whorehouse. :P |
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| 05:37.10 | fozzmoo | and I wonder if the news will even cover the transaction for #2. |
| 05:39.34 | levi | Geez, stupid 4Chan losers hacked into Sarah Palin's email account. |
| 05:39.44 | fozzmoo | 4Chan? |
| 05:39.56 | levi | Land of internet memes. |
| 05:40.51 | fozzmoo | While I am appalled they invaded someone's privacy like that... |
| 05:41.07 | fozzmoo | I gotta wonder how boring the material was they uncovered. |
| 05:41.32 | fozzmoo | cookie recipes, quilting parties, e-mail from John McCain (typed up by his wife, of course), etc. |
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| 06:23.25 | levi | Heh, O'Reilly called Anonymous an 'extremist far left Internet hate group'. |
| 06:46.30 | levi | Interesting TED talk on the nature of liberal vs. conservative morality: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html |
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| 16:00.16 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. kdesvn integration in konqueror is niiiiice. |
| 16:37.39 | levi | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25PGOODs99o |
| 16:37.56 | levi | (a Cheers clip with a silly Mormon joke) |
| 16:40.38 | ^Migs^ | OLD |
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| 16:43.09 | ^Migs^ | good pictures here: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/09/2008_summer_paralympic_games.html |
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| 16:45.36 | unum | they have a couple of goalball shots |
| 16:45.45 | unum | are women's team took 1st the men took 4th |
| 16:49.55 | mrpull | unum: how did you get involved with the paralympics? |
| 16:51.24 | unum | mrpull: a close friend of mine is on the goalball team |
| 16:51.46 | unum | I'm not really involved, I did volunteer at the national tournament, but that's about it |
| 16:54.06 | mrpull | unum: cool deal |
| 16:54.50 | Sargun_Screen | you don't need heya |
| 16:55.11 | Sargun_Screen | I love NPR |
| 16:55.25 | Sargun_Screen | yay for liberal radio. |
| 16:55.40 | Sargun_Screen | nooo... stupid kqed |
| 16:57.31 | Sargun_Screen | we have a fairly big voip community here - anyone know of a cell provider that does ulaw? |
| 16:57.47 | high_roller | Sargun_Screen: there's no fooling you then, cause you listen to NPR :) |
| 17:03.25 | Sargun_Screen | enjoys npr as they are government funded |
| 17:03.34 | Sargun_Screen | supposedly 'neutral' |
| 17:03.47 | Sargun_Screen | but in reality they are fairly liberal |
| 17:04.42 | high_roller | sorry that's a line from spongebob movie, which I have watched too many times, cause my son loves it |
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| 17:06.32 | Sargun_Screen | :-/ |
| 17:10.27 | Sargun_Screen | too bad mccain is going to win |
| 17:10.50 | harleypig | This time around he's the lesser of two great evils. |
| 17:11.13 | Sargun_Screen | no way. |
| 17:11.35 | Sargun_Screen | 'peace thriugh war' |
| 17:11.36 | Sargun_Screen | how ;uch sense does that make? |
| 17:11.47 | harleypig | Feh ... you're cherry picking. |
| 17:12.08 | eggyknap | mmm... cherries. |
| 17:12.08 | Sargun_Screen | ok, what does mccain haver over obama |
| 17:12.13 | harleypig | republicans want business to control us, democrats want government to control us, either way both sides want to control who controls us |
| 17:12.44 | Sargun_Screen | and by the way 35% of the budget isn't cherry picking |
| 17:13.08 | harleypig | mccain hasn't resorted (much) to mud slinging |
| 17:13.13 | elg | ibot for president |
| 17:13.16 | harleypig | he hasn't lied about his birth |
| 17:13.22 | Sargun_Screen | when have the democrats shown tigher control from the government |
| 17:13.31 | elg | ~lart iraq |
| 17:13.31 | ibot | changes iraq's permissions to 0777 and tells the world |
| 17:13.39 | harleypig | he hasn't severed ties to a religious community because of political expediency. |
| 17:13.42 | elg | see, soo much more effective than war |
| 17:13.46 | Sargun_Screen | look at marriage lawsput forth by the democratic party |
| 17:13.55 | *** join/#utah pashdown (i=pashdown@sine.xmission.com) |
| 17:14.12 | elg | ~elect pashdown |
| 17:14.13 | harleypig | exactly ... what business does the government have in telling us who can or can't get married. |
| 17:14.18 | harleypig | pashdown for prez! |
| 17:14.19 | harleypig | :> |
| 17:14.23 | Sargun_Screen | he's a religious man, I respect that, don't you, being LDSw and all? |
| 17:14.30 | pashdown | who wha? |
| 17:14.31 | harleypig | LDSw? |
| 17:14.51 | harleypig | what's the w for? some new splinter group? |
| 17:14.59 | elg | wide? wacky? weird? warrior? |
| 17:15.16 | pashdown | web |
| 17:15.18 | elg | wet? wooly? wild? |
| 17:15.19 | harleypig | get rid of those ?s ... wacky weird warrior ... LDSw3 |
| 17:15.24 | harleypig | LDSw* |
| 17:15.36 | Sargun_Screen | mccain's lipstick stuff wwasn't mudslinging? |
| 17:15.50 | harleypig | ? It was a response to mud slinging |
| 17:15.57 | elg | palin's yahoo email got cracked |
| 17:15.57 | Sargun_Screen | or 'celebrity' |
| 17:15.58 | harleypig | Obama called Palin a pig. |
| 17:16.18 | elg | the news report was skimpy on the details, but it sounds like probably a brute-force password attack |
| 17:16.22 | pashdown | i'll call you a harleypig! |
| 17:16.26 | Sargun_Screen | he cheated on his firrst wife! |
| 17:16.34 | harleypig | and his people got all huffy cause some 22 yr old reference 'lips' in the same sentence as Obama and called him a racist. |
| 17:17.20 | harleypig | Sargun_Screen: While I don't condone it, have you (or any other democrat) bothered to examine the circumstances surrounding that time? |
| 17:17.41 | fozzmoo | Obama lips! |
| 17:17.46 | harleypig | The democrats are completely ignoring the fact that it was the *democrats* who espoused free love during that time! |
| 17:18.01 | pashdown | there was free love legislation? |
| 17:18.11 | harleypig | :D |
| 17:18.25 | pashdown | this i gotta read! |
| 17:18.30 | fozzmoo | I KNEW Pelosi was workin on SOMETHING. |
| 17:18.39 | harleypig | You gotta show id. |
| 17:19.04 | Sargun_Screen | its a typo |
| 17:19.09 | pashdown | whereas being human |
| 17:19.10 | harleypig | Just for the record, pashdown, I think both republican and democratic parties are screwed in the head. |
| 17:19.19 | pashdown | ill drink to that |
| 17:19.33 | fozzmoo | Was it SNL that had Pelosi telling people they couldn't smoke cigarettes in the white house but smoking pot was fine? |
| 17:19.43 | fozzmoo | That cracked me up. |
| 17:19.58 | Sargun_Screen | obama wasn't calling palin a pig |
| 17:19.58 | Sargun_Screen | he was refferring to an economic plan |
| 17:19.58 | harleypig | I just think McCain is the lesser of two great evils. |
| 17:19.58 | harleypig | And mccain never denied cheating on his wife, never tried to hide it. |
| 17:19.58 | pashdown | i'm waiting for a democrat to realize that splashy hollywood fundraisers don't help their cause |
| 17:20.11 | fozzmoo | pashdown: Yeah, no kidding. |
| 17:20.24 | harleypig | Never tried to hide anything about himself, while Obama faked a freaking birth certificate. |
| 17:20.26 | Sargun_Screen | harleypig: how old are you? |
| 17:20.33 | harleypig | 43, why? |
| 17:20.50 | fozzmoo | harleypig: So he can tell you you're ancient. |
| 17:20.52 | harleypig | Never trust anyone over 30, eh? |
| 17:21.04 | harleypig | fozzmoo: yeah yeah :] |
| 17:21.09 | Sargun_Screen | oh, ok, just checking if you were alive in the 60s... |
| 17:21.16 | fozzmoo | harleypig: That's just what Sargun does. |
| 17:21.20 | Sargun_Screen | and if so, how long |
| 17:21.39 | harleypig | I was, but I don't remember most of it. I do, however, remember people coming home from Vietnam in the early to mid 70s. |
| 17:21.52 | Sargun_Screen | no, I know tons of fossils that have quite a bit of wisdom to share |
| 17:21.55 | harleypig | A member of my ward came home from a POW camp in 76. |
| 17:22.32 | Sargun_Screen | harleypig: do you want that happening again? |
| 17:23.03 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: What are you implying? |
| 17:23.06 | harleypig | Not really ... but I'd prefer to have a president who knows the cost of sending men to war than one who has no clue as to what the cost will be if we don't send them to war. |
| 17:23.35 | fozzmoo | personally, I think we need to get into armadillo mode. |
| 17:23.52 | harleypig | fozzmoo: except that even our tough hide is no longer that tough. |
| 17:23.54 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: elucidate. |
| 17:24.08 | fozzmoo | There's no way we can afford to fight stuff abroad with all the crap going on in our economy. |
| 17:24.12 | unum | there is absolutely no evidence that he faked his birth certificate |
| 17:24.16 | Sargun_Screen | I agree |
| 17:24.18 | fozzmoo | unum: Sure there is. |
| 17:24.25 | unum | fozzmoo: no there's not |
| 17:24.33 | fozzmoo | But there are plenty of GOOD things to argue about rather than that. |
| 17:24.38 | unum | true |
| 17:24.39 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: please clarify |
| 17:24.40 | harleypig | Too many of our children have been taught to believe they are "special" and have not been taught how to work. |
| 17:24.57 | fozzmoo | hands harleypig a trophy for 435th place |
| 17:24.59 | Sargun_Screen | ok, commie. |
| 17:25.00 | unum | obama is a military brat and biden has a son in the reserve |
| 17:25.03 | Sargun_Screen | :-P |
| 17:25.08 | harleypig | sieg heil |
| 17:25.24 | harleypig | feh ... a military brat is *not* the same as a vet. |
| 17:25.27 | unum | I admit it doesn't measure up to mccain credentials in those fields, but they do have some credentials |
| 17:25.34 | fozzmoo | And biden rides the train... EVERY DAY, man! EVERY DAY! |
| 17:25.39 | harleypig | :D |
| 17:26.00 | unum | McCain has no understanding of the economy |
| 17:26.07 | fozzmoo | unum: "no" ? |
| 17:26.08 | harleypig | ?! |
| 17:26.09 | Sargun_Screen | ok, are you guys going to put forth your state on positions |
| 17:26.18 | unum | of course I think that's evidence by his supporting deregulation |
| 17:26.22 | Sargun_Screen | or just fall back to name calling |
| 17:26.33 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: You're.... a... KID! |
| 17:26.53 | harleypig | covers his ears and goes "LA LA LA LA LA LA" |
| 17:26.53 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Will you be able to vote in Nov? |
| 17:28.07 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: can you state your position, or are you going to fall back to using grade school tactics |
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| 17:28.19 | fozzmoo | I don't believe Biden or Obama have it within them to NOT spend money like crazy. |
| 17:28.26 | fozzmoo | I also don't believe McCain has it within him either. |
| 17:28.32 | goozbach | this is really cool! I want to do it http://www.davethedesigner.net/booktut/index.html |
| 17:28.54 | fozzmoo | But McCain has Palin, who at least has SOME credibility of being a spending-cutter. |
| 17:28.56 | harleypig | Sargun_Screen: Can you state your position without pointing to anything the opposition is doing or not doing? |
| 17:29.06 | fozzmoo | So, IMO, it's the best we've got. |
| 17:29.26 | unum | fozzmoo: is this based off of their past voting history? |
| 17:29.39 | fozzmoo | goozbach: cool. |
| 17:29.40 | unum | or based off your feelings of anyone who chooose a major party label? |
| 17:29.57 | *** join/#utah bonez46 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 17:29.59 | fozzmoo | unum: Voting history, platform, position statements, etc. |
| 17:30.16 | bonez46 | ah, politics today.....fun! |
| 17:30.38 | unum | I'm interested in specific things people would like to see cut from the budget |
| 17:30.38 | Sargun_Screen | you mean with her bridge to nowhere? |
| 17:30.50 | unum | so that would be an excellent example... |
| 17:30.57 | fozzmoo | Obama/Biden will spend Googollions of dollars if they make good on campaign promises. |
| 17:31.05 | unum | fozzmoo: which promises |
| 17:31.28 | bonez46 | unum: cut out all the fat.....trim it to the bone... |
| 17:31.38 | fozzmoo | Obama, himself, has had 94 chances to vote on spending or spending cut measures since being elected as senator and has voted against cuts or for spending... NINETY FOUR TIMES. |
| 17:31.41 | unum | bonez46: I am asking for specifics |
| 17:31.48 | harleypig | And again ... each party promises to spend or otherwise shuffle money around. Neither party acknowledges any real problems or presents plans to fix them. |
| 17:31.57 | fozzmoo | unum: The biggest example is universal healthcare. |
| 17:32.06 | harleypig | Both parties are just stroking off the general public. What people choose is whichever feels better to them. |
| 17:32.08 | bonez46 | fozzmoo: well, does it vote more often to spend, or to cut spending? |
| 17:32.17 | unum | fozzmoo: I'm paying for that and plan to continue to pay for that |
| 17:32.18 | fozzmoo | that promise equals, what, 300 _B_illion bucks? |
| 17:32.23 | Sargun_Screen | if you stopped sending cash to iraq |
| 17:32.25 | unum | so it's not an increase in spending |
| 17:32.30 | bonez46 | McCain acknowledges the real problems and how he'll clean house and truly fix them |
| 17:32.46 | harleypig | bonez46: which? |
| 17:32.47 | unum | bonez46: mccain does not give specifics |
| 17:32.48 | Sargun_Screen | we wouldn't be in this huge budget shortfall |
| 17:32.53 | fozzmoo | bonez46: If Palin and party conservatives hold his feet to the fire, he will. |
| 17:32.59 | bonez46 | unum: he will provide specifics... |
| 17:33.09 | bonez46 | and the party will and so will Palin |
| 17:33.10 | unum | palin fought for the bridge to no where |
| 17:33.25 | elg | so how much direct power does the VP (or the president even) have in all these issues? |
| 17:33.26 | unum | palin's record is spending not saving |
| 17:33.33 | Sargun_Screen | I say we use a 'neutron bomb' (biological weapons) and take iraq off the map if they keep being stupid |
| 17:33.33 | bonez46 | unum: she fought for it until she came to her senses..and then fought against it |
| 17:33.34 | unum | elg: veto |
| 17:33.36 | harleypig | unum: do you know anything beyond the media spin on that bridge? |
| 17:33.42 | unum | bonez46: and kept the money |
| 17:33.53 | bonez46 | unum: hmmm, I didn't know that |
| 17:33.54 | fozzmoo | elg: Typically, not very much... but Cheney has exercised a lot more power than previous VPs. |
| 17:33.56 | unum | harleypig: depends on what you consider the media spin |
| 17:34.04 | Sargun_Screen | and threaten to 'neutron bomb' and district that tries to retaliate |
| 17:34.10 | fozzmoo | elg: How many secret undisclosed underground bunkers do we NOT know about? :) |
| 17:34.39 | harleypig | unum: Do you think the media is unbiased? |
| 17:34.43 | elg | president has veto and executive control over the military |
| 17:34.54 | elg | i know that much. my serious question is, what other direct power does he have? |
| 17:34.55 | unum | harleypig: all media is biased, that's why you should use multiple source |
| 17:34.56 | unum | s |
| 17:35.00 | harleypig | elg: veto can be overridden |
| 17:35.03 | fozzmoo | I want a president that will use multimedia to prove his/her points. |
| 17:35.07 | elg | and then the vp, whose direct powers I'm mostly ignorant of |
| 17:35.09 | elg | harleypig: well, yeah |
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| 17:35.20 | harleypig | unum: can you point to a media source that is not heavily biased towards the democrats? |
| 17:35.22 | fozzmoo | I'm sick of presidential addresses that are just some talking head sitting at a desk. |
| 17:35.28 | mrpull | fozzmoo: remember perot's charts? damn... if would have used powerpoint |
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| 17:35.32 | unum | the vp votes in the senate when it is tied, that's about all he/she can do |
| 17:35.33 | fozzmoo | mrpull: YES! |
| 17:35.43 | fozzmoo | Even the charts and easels were a big improvement. |
| 17:35.43 | unum | harleypig: limbaugh, hanity, fox news |
| 17:36.05 | unum | gore and romney I think are power point people |
| 17:36.14 | harleypig | err ... limbaugh is not a media source |
| 17:36.18 | fozzmoo | mrpull: Slap Mitt Romney's face on Ross Perot (so we could stand to look at him on TV) combined with those charts and we've got a winner! |
| 17:36.18 | mrpull | fozzmoo: I missread that as taking head at a desk... paging mr. freud... |
| 17:36.22 | unum | harleypig: technically he is |
| 17:36.39 | mrpull | a handsome man with charts wins every time! |
| 17:36.49 | harleypig | talk show hosts count as media sources? |
| 17:36.50 | fozzmoo | what about olberman? |
| 17:36.58 | fozzmoo | He CLAIMS he's a journalist... |
| 17:36.59 | unum | harleypig: absolutely |
| 17:37.08 | fozzmoo | but he just spews liberal rhetoric. |
| 17:37.15 | harleypig | So, Howard Stern is a media source then? |
| 17:37.26 | RyanE | he's a *sewage* source. |
| 17:37.27 | unum | harleypig: of course |
| 17:37.27 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@97-117-74-42.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 17:37.35 | harleypig | uh huh. |
| 17:37.36 | fozzmoo | Spongebob Squarepants is a major media source. :) |
| 17:37.47 | RyanE | yes he is, from his Pineapple Empire. |
| 17:37.48 | unum | fozzmoo: why wouldn't he be |
| 17:37.54 | fozzmoo | Bikini Bottom. :) |
| 17:37.56 | JoshH | romney is way uglier than perot imo |
| 17:37.59 | JoshH | his skin looks fake |
| 17:38.04 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 17:38.09 | fozzmoo | JoshH: You're just jealous. |
| 17:38.12 | unum | Media (communication), tools used to store and deliver information or data |
| 17:38.32 | fozzmoo | unum: but nobody expects to learn anything of record from Spongebob. |
| 17:38.32 | unum | and if you're delivering "news" information then you are "news" media |
| 17:38.46 | unum | fozzmoo: that doesn't mean he's not part of "the media" |
| 17:38.55 | fozzmoo | unum: I don't think that's really the point, tho, is it? |
| 17:39.03 | RyanE | I learned more about David Hasselhoff from SpongeBob. |
| 17:39.04 | JoshH | fozzmoo: in the face war, palin wins hands down |
| 17:39.10 | fozzmoo | unum: That's quite a tangential line you've drawn there. |
| 17:39.14 | unum | the point is he was saying all media was democrat biased |
| 17:39.17 | fozzmoo | JoshH: No argument there. :-) |
| 17:39.19 | JoshH | too bad she would be scary in office |
| 17:39.21 | unum | I was saying it was not. |
| 17:39.27 | fozzmoo | JoshH: But Palin's face on Perot's body... eeek. |
| 17:39.29 | unum | I'm not sure why I'm off base |
| 17:39.31 | harleypig | I like SNLs take on it ... in a few months Palin will officially be a GILF. :D |
| 17:39.51 | unum | I'm using the generally excepted definition.... |
| 17:39.51 | JoshH | let's get someone qualified and smart in palin's body, then we'd be all set |
| 17:39.52 | pashdown | harleypig: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp is this what you are talking about? |
| 17:40.39 | fozzmoo | http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html |
| 17:41.20 | fozzmoo | I don't like Corsi. |
| 17:41.25 | pashdown | "spend time with the birth certificate" hawww |
| 17:41.36 | pashdown | did they ask the birth certificate any questions? |
| 17:41.37 | harleypig | No ... he's released his birth certificate ... but a ... whatever you call a guy who analyzes documents for forgery (sorry programming and politics don't mix) claims it's a forgery. |
| 17:41.38 | fozzmoo | I think David Fredesso has much better arguments against Obama. |
| 17:42.10 | fozzmoo | Also explains why the Obama campaign is trying so hard to keep him off the airwaves. |
| 17:42.19 | fozzmoo | s/keep/get/ |
| 17:42.35 | harleypig | looking |
| 17:46.25 | harleypig | hmmm ... interesting reading for Obama's birth certificate. |
| 17:47.34 | fozzmoo | pashdown: do you know if/when we're going to be sipping power from a nuke plant? |
| 17:47.36 | JoshH | what could possibly be damaging on his birth certificate |
| 17:47.46 | JoshH | is bin laden the father or something? |
| 17:47.49 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Maybe he was born a girl. :) |
| 17:48.09 | pashdown | fozz you mean tilton's project in green river? |
| 17:48.26 | fozzmoo | pashdown: Will that feed power to SLC? |
| 17:48.44 | fozzmoo | How soon will it go online? |
| 17:48.51 | JoshH | fozzmoo: wow, the first black tranny president |
| 17:48.55 | pashdown | as soon as tilton can get billions in subsidies |
| 17:49.02 | fozzmoo | sighs |
| 17:49.08 | levi | JoshH: Some people are saying he wasn't born in Hawaii at all, so he wouldn't be eligible to be President. |
| 17:49.40 | JoshH | where do they think he was born? i haven't heard of this birth cert controversy until now |
| 17:49.46 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Kenya |
| 17:50.12 | fozzmoo | JoshH: there's some lawyer trying to sue the campaign saying he's really not eligible to run. |
| 17:50.26 | unum | fozzmoo: has his mom even been to kenya? |
| 17:50.31 | pashdown | ^lawyer^kook with a law degree |
| 17:50.47 | fozzmoo | But, come on, there are better reasons to consider not voting for the man. |
| 17:50.52 | JoshH | weren't his parents citizens at the time? i didn't think you actually had to be born on US soil. what if your parents worked in an embassy and you were born overseas, would you be disqualified? |
| 17:51.02 | fozzmoo | Obama wasn't born in the US. :) |
| 17:51.10 | fozzmoo | s/Obama/McCain/ |
| 17:51.24 | unum | ya he's a zonian |
| 17:51.27 | pashdown | foxtian slip |
| 17:51.33 | fozzmoo | unum: Explains the look in his eyes. |
| 17:52.02 | unum | there was a law passed after his birth to qualify him as a natural citizen though.... but I don't care about any of that stuff |
| 17:52.16 | mrpull | mccain wasn't born in the US either... right? |
| 17:52.20 | unum | fozzmoo: why don't you vote bob barr then |
| 17:52.27 | ^Migs^ | is there a way I can tar a directory and tell it to omit a certain directory underneath it? |
| 17:52.36 | unum | I mean if you really want to see the government cut back |
| 17:52.40 | fozzmoo | unum: I was gonna... until Palin was added to the ticket. |
| 17:52.59 | mrpull | nm... here's a link: http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/how_can_panamanian-born_mccain_be_elected_president.html |
| 17:53.01 | fozzmoo | Now there's *hope* that one of the electable parties might cut back. |
| 17:53.16 | unum | but palin is all about expanding government |
| 17:53.27 | fozzmoo | unum: Yeah? See, I disagree with you on that. |
| 17:53.40 | unum | doesn't she support regulating marriage |
| 17:53.54 | unum | preventing abortion in cases of rape and incest |
| 17:53.55 | fozzmoo | unum: Don't know. Don't care. States' rights |
| 17:54.07 | fozzmoo | unum: I think that's been disputed. |
| 17:54.08 | unum | but does she believe that? |
| 17:54.40 | unum | it is true she put away a lot of corrupt people in alaska... |
| 17:54.45 | fozzmoo | I know a lot of ridiculous stuff has been said about her views on religion, abortion, and marriage and it's all exageration, distortion, and out of context. |
| 17:54.47 | unum | but I don't think she downsized the government |
| 17:55.07 | ^Migs^ | never mind, figured it out |
| 17:55.16 | fozzmoo | Just like that Iraq War is from God thing. |
| 17:55.49 | unum | bush did say that |
| 17:55.54 | JoshH | fozzmoo: that's not ridiculous at all |
| 17:55.55 | unum | I saw him in the debate |
| 17:55.59 | JoshH | she said it |
| 17:56.00 | pashdown | fozz, do you think civil rights should have been decided by the states? |
| 17:56.12 | unum | even his supporters interepeted it that way |
| 17:56.57 | JoshH | imagine some radical muslims hearing that the VP considers the iraq war a mission from the christian god. then it really is a holy war for them. |
| 17:57.11 | fozzmoo | JoshH: She was in church and was talking about sending her son off to war and was talking about praying that he would be doing God's will. There's a difference between saying "We are on God's side" and "I hope we're doing God's will." |
| 17:57.57 | fozzmoo | pashdown: I'm a hetero-only marriage guy, but I don't believe strongly enough to care that much about it. |
| 17:58.06 | JoshH | "Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan." |
| 17:58.21 | pashdown | right, but the question of individual rights being protected by the constitution is federal, is it not? |
| 17:58.26 | JoshH | seems cut and dry to me |
| 17:58.33 | fozzmoo | pashdown: Yes. |
| 17:59.08 | JoshH | she thinks god wants us to fight in iraq, and insurgents think god wants them to fight back against us |
| 17:59.15 | fozzmoo | JoshH: No she doesn't. |
| 17:59.16 | JoshH | it's not good to bring god into the subject |
| 17:59.19 | fozzmoo | Sheeesh. |
| 17:59.29 | fozzmoo | JoshH: She didn't. It was at CHURCH! |
| 17:59.42 | fozzmoo | it wasn't an interview. It wasn't a press conference. |
| 17:59.45 | fozzmoo | it was at church! |
| 17:59.54 | JoshH | so what did she mean by "a task that is from god"?, if not that? |
| 18:00.03 | JoshH | it doesn't matter where she said it |
| 18:00.06 | fozzmoo | Ask her. |
| 18:00.16 | JoshH | i think she means exactly that |
| 18:00.18 | JoshH | what she said |
| 18:00.29 | fozzmoo | I didn't get that impression at all when I heard the comment. |
| 18:00.53 | fozzmoo | I got the impression she was deeply concerned about what she was sending her son and other reservists into and hoped they were doing the right thing. |
| 18:01.09 | fozzmoo | But, if you're hellbent on hating the woman, you'll take her comments a different way. |
| 18:01.27 | JoshH | well, perhaps. but regardless, the last thing we should be doing is giving the radicals the impression that we are doing god's will over there |
| 18:01.37 | fozzmoo | JoshH: I agree. |
| 18:01.38 | JoshH | because that's what they think they are doing, and it will just make more of them sign up to fight |
| 18:01.53 | pashdown | ignoring the god comments, the abstinence parenting, the personal issue, what do you think of the bridge to nowhere fozz? |
| 18:02.07 | fozzmoo | Just like Obama not considering the reaction of the rest of the world when he and Biden talk about how our economy is a complete train wreck. |
| 18:02.22 | fozzmoo | pashdown: Don't know much about it. I know it was pretty much dead when she took office... |
| 18:02.37 | fozzmoo | I know she was in support of it at first and then changed her mind on it. |
| 18:02.44 | pashdown | and then took the money anyway? |
| 18:02.45 | JoshH | well, when mccain says it's very strong right after lehman collapses and AIG is taken over, the rest of the world just laughs |
| 18:02.50 | fozzmoo | But it sounds like federal funding was going away. |
| 18:02.56 | fozzmoo | pashdown: yeah. I'd like to know more. |
| 18:03.20 | pashdown | it bothers me that she took the money and goes out on the campaign trail and says she said "no thanks" to it. |
| 18:03.30 | JoshH | from what i understand, she was for the bridge, then against it, took the money anyway, and used it for something else besides the bridge |
| 18:03.31 | pashdown | she still took the money for it, and built a ramp for it |
| 18:03.38 | JoshH | yet somehow she is still considered an ethical maverick |
| 18:03.41 | fozzmoo | pashdown: Yes. That is bothersome and it makes me want to know more of the facts before I decide on it. |
| 18:03.56 | pashdown | gotta run to lunch, wish i could stay and argue :-) |
| 18:04.02 | fozzmoo | pashdown: Been fun! |
| 18:04.04 | goozbach | so FYI canola oil probally shouldn't be used in salad dressing |
| 18:04.07 | pashdown | adios |
| 18:04.10 | goozbach | blech! |
| 18:04.17 | goozbach | aftertaste city! |
| 18:04.29 | levi | fozzmoo: There are plenty of facts about the bridge and Palin's association with it and subsequent actions out there, if you care to look for them. |
| 18:08.27 | levi | fozzmoo: When you feel free to ignore anything potentially bad about Palin as 'liberal mudslinging and distortions' yet feel free to believe anything potentially bad about Obama, you don't come across as having a very reality-based view on things. |
| 18:08.56 | fozzmoo | levi: I think you know I'm not quite that black and white. |
| 18:09.37 | levi | Well, when you're directly conversing with me, you seem pretty nuanced. But whenever I read through my scrollback at a political discussion you're involved in, I wonder where the nuanced guy went. |
| 18:10.04 | goozbach | wonders if he should stick around in #utah |
| 18:10.04 | fozzmoo | heh heh. I think I just said in this recent discussion that the birth certificate thing wasn't really even an issue worth debating. |
| 18:11.52 | levi | I have much more of a bone to pick with harleypig than you, though. :) |
| 18:13.00 | fozzmoo | levi: But, yeah, I feel pretty strongly that we need a president (and congress) that is committed to slashing govt spending, even some temporary "mandatory" spending in addition to "discretionary", over the next four years. I don't see the chances of that happening under Obama/Biden and while the chances are still remote with McCain/Palin, they still lie within the realm of possible. |
| 18:13.47 | unum | I still think you have a better chance with barr :) |
| 18:14.13 | fozzmoo | Oh yeah, if Barr werre elected, we'd be in great shape... but the first part of that statement isn't in the realm of possible. |
| 18:14.43 | fozzmoo | heads to Costa Vida for chow. |
| 18:15.04 | JoshH | cafe rio is better |
| 18:15.07 | levi | fozzmoo: I think you're pinning all your hopes on Palin, and that you'll be let down in the end. I can't read her mind, of course, but looking at what she's done and said in a historical context suggests to me that although she's tough on outright corruption, she's very much at the whim of popular opinion on spending. |
| 18:15.46 | unum | levi: agreed |
| 18:15.55 | harleypig | levi: why? |
| 18:16.08 | unum | harleypig: like he said based on historical evidence |
| 18:16.27 | levi | I.e., she spent most of her executive career lobbying for money to spend on civic projects, and has only recently (since the "bridge to nowhere" hit the national news and became extremely unpopular) started reversing her ways. |
| 18:16.34 | harleypig | sorry ... levi: what bone do you have to pick? |
| 18:17.15 | levi | harleypig: About your willingness to believe conservative spin. |
| 18:17.30 | harleypig | *Every* politician is at the whim of popular opinion on spending. |
| 18:17.58 | harleypig | ?! As opposed to democrats willingness to believe liberal spin? |
| 18:18.05 | harleypig | I don't ... I take everything with a grain of salt. |
| 18:18.14 | harleypig | meh ... a salt lick |
| 18:18.18 | harleypig | But. |
| 18:18.27 | levi | harleypig: The conversation above suggested to me that you hadn't got enough salt on some issues. |
| 18:18.46 | levi | McCain has a solid anti-pork background. |
| 18:19.31 | levi | He did pass some bills to fund some projects for his state, but they were not technically pork earmarks, and they didn't amount to a huge sum of money. |
| 18:19.32 | harleypig | I really loathe mud slinging ... and that's mostly what I see the democrats doing. While I disagree with a lot of McCain's historical personal choices, at least he never tried to hide the. |
| 18:19.54 | levi | harleypig: McCain's campaign has done a *lot* of mudslinging in the past few weeks. |
| 18:19.59 | bonez46 | harleypig: is that with Real Salt? or that plain table salt? |
| 18:20.10 | harleypig | And, I've been a registered democrat since I could vote. This time however, I've switched. |
| 18:20.16 | bonez46 | the mudslinging should stop.. everyone loses ground with slinging mud.... |
| 18:20.23 | harleypig | Exactly. |
| 18:20.54 | levi | harleypig: See politifact.com for recent analysis of the factual basis of stuff McCain has been saying since Palin came on board. |
| 18:21.03 | JoshH | what are some specific examples of dem mudslinging in this campaign that bother you? to me it seems like the repubs have done far more of it. |
| 18:21.04 | harleypig | levi: yes they have. I said "that's mostly what I see the democrats doing" ... I see very little in the way of actual content from the democrat camp. |
| 18:21.05 | unum | I think republican supporters have done FAR more mudslinging than the democratic supporters. I base that off of snopes.com and presonal experience |
| 18:21.32 | levi | harleypig: Are you talking about random websites, the mainstream media, or official political ads? |
| 18:21.50 | unum | of course in my local campaign the republican is doing NOTHING but mud slinging |
| 18:21.56 | unum | and the democrat is doing none. |
| 18:22.06 | levi | Online liberals have been absolutely disgusting lately with their mudslinging, but then so have the conservatives. |
| 18:22.10 | harleypig | Mainstream mainly. Of course, does anyone remember my ranting about the heavy handed police action at the republican convention? |
| 18:22.51 | JoshH | i don't |
| 18:22.54 | levi | harleypig: What particular examples of mudslinging in the mainstream media have you seen lately? I don't really watch network news, except for the local FOX channel when my wife puts it on. |
| 18:23.54 | JoshH | i watch cnn and foxnews about equally, and don't see much mudslinging on either, other than from the non-journalist talking heads on them |
| 18:24.30 | JoshH | but i felt the entire RNC was basically nothing but misleading attacks |
| 18:24.34 | harleypig | Detailed analysis of McCains history, specifically of when he came back from Vietnam and how poorly he treated his wife ... ignoring entirely the effects of his time in a POW camp, the surrounding general atmosphere. |
| 18:25.05 | JoshH | he started courting cindy before he was even divorced |
| 18:25.15 | harleypig | And? |
| 18:25.38 | levi | That's ancient history, and mostly irrelevant. |
| 18:25.51 | JoshH | so what's mudslinging about reporting on that? lots of voters really care about the sex lives and relationships of politicians |
| 18:26.01 | harleypig | Shall we judge everyone from that time according to our own "modern" and "enlightened" standards? |
| 18:26.05 | levi | And I agree that reporting on that has the shade of mudslinging to it. |
| 18:26.33 | levi | But you can't blame that on Obama himself. |
| 18:26.35 | harleypig | Reporting on it *without also examining the atmosphere of the time* |
| 18:26.45 | JoshH | it wasn't THAT long ago |
| 18:26.45 | harleypig | I don't. I blame the democratic party. |
| 18:27.01 | harleypig | JoshH: when was the last time you heard "Free Love"? |
| 18:27.12 | JoshH | mccain wasn't a hippy |
| 18:27.13 | levi | I don't see how the democratic party is at fault, either. |
| 18:27.38 | JoshH | but the lone article i read about the old wife situation mentioned that many of his republican colleagues were disgusted by the situation and lost a lot of respect for him |
| 18:28.00 | harleypig | and free love wasn't limited to hippy's either (who, btw, were a very small sub population of the free love movement). |
| 18:28.12 | JoshH | we need free love again these days |
| 18:28.52 | harleypig | It wasn't so long ago that a kid could write down the names of people he hated without getting locked up as a terrorist either. |
| 18:28.57 | levi | I think the 'free love' movement made its point. Mainstream USA is far more accepting of the idea than it used to be, for better or worse. |
| 18:29.19 | harleypig | not according to the reports on mccains activities during that time period. |
| 18:29.33 | levi | harleypig: It also wasn't so long ago that a kid could write down the names of people he hated and have their careers destroyed as communists. |
| 18:29.58 | harleypig | levi: I was using that as a point to JoshH's comment about it not being that long ago. |
| 18:30.34 | harleypig | levi: and, as many times as I've been stopped by cops because some loose boweled moron got scared, doesn't make me believe we're that far away from it eiter. |
| 18:31.37 | harleypig | And I wish people would keep in mind that I support McCain only as a choice of two lesser evils. Right now, I'd vote Cthulu if it ran. |
| 18:31.44 | JoshH | i think the current state of fear and paranoia is mostly the fault of republicans |
| 18:31.59 | harleypig | ok |
| 18:32.29 | harleypig | It's the fault of people who don't want to know how mean the world is, democrat and republican. |
| 18:32.36 | bonez46 | as McCain said in his acceptance speech.. he's going to step on toes on both sides of the aisle when elected.... |
| 18:33.56 | JoshH | he said that, but i think his willingness to piss off the party leaders is limited |
| 18:34.37 | levi | harleypig: Anyway, my primary reason for questioning your skepticism of conservatively-sourced claims was your belief that Obama lied about where he was born. |
| 18:34.50 | bonez46 | JoshH: well of course, he doesn't want to make too many enemies.. I think he was just saying.. he's going to get things done and doesn't care if a few folks are bothered by his actions |
| 18:35.14 | levi | bonez46: What things, in particular, is he going to get done? |
| 18:35.33 | levi | I believe he'll probably veto a lot of pork. |
| 18:35.49 | harleypig | levi: I believed (upon now apparently shaky data) that he'd faked a birth certificate ... not quite the same thing. |
| 18:36.02 | levi | harleypig: You said explicitly that he lied about his birth. |
| 18:36.17 | JoshH | he's gonna drill anwar, catch bin laden, keep the gays out of sight and out of mind, intimidate putin and iran into submission, and fight fight fight for what's right |
| 18:36.54 | levi | And willingness to believe such things is why mudslinging works. |
| 18:37.12 | harleypig | levi: No, though I implied it. |
| 18:37.12 | bonez46 | levi: well, lots of pork needs vetoing.. doesn't it? |
| 18:37.24 | harleypig | But I never said he lied about where he was born. |
| 18:37.43 | levi | harleypig: What else about his birth would he have lied about? |
| 18:38.07 | harleypig | levi: anything on the document, from who his parents were, to the date of his birth to ... whatever. |
| 18:38.27 | harleypig | All I cared about was that a seemingly reputable source was saying that his birth certificate was faked. |
| 18:38.49 | harleypig | And, just for the record, how much democratic based reports do you believe? |
| 18:38.50 | JoshH | the whole notion of him lying on his birth certificate sounds like something the people who send emails about him being a secret muslim sleeper terrorist would come up with |
| 18:39.09 | harleypig | Uh huh. Nice association. |
| 18:39.22 | harleypig | So, have you stopped beating your wife yet? |
| 18:39.39 | JoshH | no way, i love doing that too much |
| 18:39.43 | harleypig | :] |
| 18:40.05 | levi | harleypig: Like any other human being, I believe most of what I see until I have a chance to disprove it. And I try to disprove every bit of mud-slinging from either side. |
| 18:40.52 | harleypig | I didn't see it as mud slinging ... now I'm suspicious of it. Like I said, it came from seemingly reputable sources. |
| 18:41.14 | levi | What sources were they? |
| 18:42.46 | harleypig | A number of talk show hosts (yeah, yeah), some web sites that I frequent that have been usually pretty good. And, as far as I could find out, the only thing the democrats were saying was nothing. |
| 18:43.13 | harleypig | Some good links were given here, that seem to be realtively non-partisan. |
| 18:45.18 | levi | Well, I don't mean to beat up on you in particular, because everyone is vulnerable to that kind of stuff. My point is that there's a *lot* of crap in the air now, and it's best to be skeptical about all of it. |
| 18:45.34 | harleypig | This is my pov ... democrats are diluting the US while republicans are crushing it. Both are intent on controlling what the populace see and hear and think. The only difference is how they go about doing it. |
| 18:46.09 | harleypig | At this point in time, McCain seems, to me, to have a better grasp on what affects me personally. |
| 18:46.32 | levi | What particular issues are those? |
| 18:46.56 | levi | I would also note that political parties are not the only forces bent on controlling the populace. |
| 18:47.17 | harleypig | No, but the parties are the main political tools for doing that. |
| 18:47.31 | harleypig | Mainly military use and spending. |
| 18:48.20 | harleypig | meh ... votegopher.com says it better than me. |
| 18:48.53 | harleypig | United Nations is a joke and a waste of time. |
| 18:49.16 | harleypig | Leaving Iraq the way it is would be worse than if we never invaded at all. |
| 18:49.47 | Tene | mccain increase military spending has 344kghits, while decrease has 33kghits |
| 18:49.52 | Tene | Interesting. |
| 18:50.05 | harleypig | Pressuring nations instead of talking (which has gotten us nowhere in the last 50 years) |
| 18:50.31 | harleypig | China is a competitor ... youd' have to be blind not to see that. |
| 18:51.28 | harleypig | Torture is an unpleasant means to an end. it should be a career ending move no matter the reason. |
| 18:51.48 | harleypig | Some things must be done, but the price must be paid to have done them. |
| 18:54.16 | harleypig | That's as far as I've gotten on votegopher ... it's making me do more research than I've ever done for presidential candidates. I like it. |
| 18:55.05 | tensai | some things must never be done. you know who you are harleypig. |
| 18:57.28 | harleypig | who determines what those things are. |
| 18:57.31 | harleypig | ? |
| 18:58.17 | Tene | harleypig: God, of course. |
| 18:58.19 | harleypig | who determines how far is too far? |
| 18:58.45 | harleypig | Have you read the Old Testament? |
| 18:59.26 | harleypig | Tell me any of those things God commanded be done is any better? |
| 18:59.36 | Tene | Yes, but didn't you hear? You only need to follow the parts of the OT that you agree with. |
| 18:59.44 | harleypig | not in my religion. |
| 19:00.20 | Tene | The parts you disagree with are {cultural relativism,obsoleted by christ coming,translation issues} |
| 19:00.30 | Tene | So it's okay! |
| 19:00.45 | harleypig | Obsoleted? Is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow or not? |
| 19:01.14 | Tene | Obviously if you ask that question you're a dirty atheist and can be safely ignored. |
| 19:01.33 | harleypig | Oh, so God didn't order the killing of entire civilizations in order to prevent contamination from other cultures? |
| 19:01.59 | harleypig | Tene: :] |
| 19:02.34 | bonez46 | God did order such things..... |
| 19:03.36 | *** join/#utah mabes (n=bmabey@mail.cirrusdata.com) |
| 19:03.59 | harleypig | http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/06/obama-birth.html |
| 19:04.11 | harleypig | The LA Times being a paragon of non-partisanship. |
| 19:04.16 | harleypig | ducks. |
| 19:06.52 | harleypig | interesting ... the analysis of the document was based off of a 2007 printing of the document ... well ... that just blows that whole thing to pieces. feh. |
| 19:08.41 | tensai | harleypig: I was referring to a certain small article of clothing |
| 19:10.02 | levi | harleypig: I'm not sure what you're getting at. |
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| 19:13.05 | harleypig | levi: That I should have examined *what* they were analyzing as much as what the analysis was saying. |
| 19:13.33 | harleypig | tensai: ah ... humour in a politics discussion ... sorry ... I missed it. |
| 19:13.43 | harleypig | :] |
| 19:13.49 | tensai | clearly my skills are waning. I need to get out more. |
| 19:13.53 | harleypig | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/25/AR2007112501720.html?nav=rss_world&p=1&ac=1&cmp=22&wpsrc=AG0000431&KEYWORD=japan%20times&cre=1803334326&st=c&g=1&s_kwcid=ContentNetwork|1803334326 |
| 19:14.07 | harleypig | woops ... sorry about that ... I didn't think the link was that big. |
| 19:14.26 | harleypig | An interesting article on domestic relations in japan ... entirely unrelated to the discussion we were just having. |
| 19:15.50 | levi | National Chauvinistic Husbands Association, eh? |
| 19:18.42 | *** part/#utah bonez46 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 19:23.08 | harleypig | Yeah ... i find it fascinating what chauvinistic means in japanese and wonder how it came to be translated the way itis. |
| 19:23.23 | harleypig | And here's one guarunteed to twist some g's: http://www.lolcatbible.com |
| 19:28.24 | harleypig | Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem. |
| 19:29.41 | harleypig | http://www.babash.org/?5 |
| 19:33.37 | goozbach | I want a bound leather lolcatbible |
| 19:35.29 | levi | I wonder what this economic meltdown is going to do to the presidential polls. |
| 19:43.42 | fozzmoo | levi: I think it depends on what the candidates say. |
| 19:44.02 | fozzmoo | Blaming the other party for all the world's woes isn't reputable. :) |
| 19:44.32 | fozzmoo | It shows a gross misunderstanding of the problem. You can't blame a problem with financial systems on politics |
| 19:44.52 | levi | I'm not blaming anybody for anything, I'm just curious what effect it's going to have. |
| 19:45.14 | fozzmoo | No, but all the democrats seem to be blaming the republicans. |
| 19:45.49 | fozzmoo | In an interview last night, Palin blamed it on the greed on Wall Street and said there needed to be a reform of regulations. I have to say, I was not happy to hear that. |
| 19:46.58 | levi | There were 5 financial institutions, apparently, that the SEC gave permission to leverage their debts 40-to-1. 3 of those have failed or been bailed out so far. |
| 19:47.26 | fozzmoo | If a candidate can come out and effectively articulate an explanation of what caused the problem and how they want to fix it, and it makes sense, they'll probably come out on top. |
| 19:47.42 | levi | This sounds like a regulatory failure to me, though not one directly tied to a political party. |
| 19:47.46 | fozzmoo | But if it's just finger pointing and general "We will survive" type crap... |
| 19:48.41 | fozzmoo | no good. |
| 19:50.58 | levi | And, although the Republicans pushed through a bill that made NINA loans legal again, it was Clinton that failed to veto it. But Clinton's policies relating to business don't exactly square with those of Democrats in general. |
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| 19:52.35 | harleypig | http://www.therawfeed.com/2008/09/bias-spotting-firefox-toolbar-now-in.html |
| 19:52.42 | harleypig | Kind of appropriate after this morning's chat. |
| 19:53.50 | harleypig | Have no idea good it is. |
| 19:53.58 | harleypig | other than its in beta |
| 19:54.39 | harleypig | oh ... nm ... it's dependant on user input. |
| 19:56.30 | fozzmoo | So, levi, you don't think Clinton's Community Redevelopment Act had anything to do with it or is this what you're talking about? Legislation crafted by republicans that Clinton merely didn't veto? |
| 20:01.18 | pashdown | do you think that a no-down, no-income-check, arm mortgage should be legal fozz? |
| 20:02.15 | pashdown | should a check casher be able to charge 90% interest? |
| 20:02.19 | neybar | I'm not entirely sure it should really be a legal matter. If someone/institution is willing to give out that kind of loan it should be at their own risk. |
| 20:02.43 | pashdown | right, so why is the government bailing out these risky institutions? |
| 20:02.51 | jsmith | As my father likes to say... "You can't legislate stupidity" |
| 20:02.57 | neybar | they shouldn't in my not so humble opinion |
| 20:03.29 | pashdown | if they don't, what would the broader impact of all those mortgages failing be? free houses, or people being ejected from houses? |
| 20:03.55 | pashdown | imho, it is much cheaper to enforce prudence than bail out stupidity |
| 20:04.04 | neybar | why should I be paying because other people make unwise decisions? I really hate that people are loosing their houses, but maybe if you can't afford said house you should lower your standards a bit and find a home that fits your budget. |
| 20:04.54 | pashdown | but here is a loan that will enable you to get a house! just sign on the dotted line and don't read the complicated fine print. do you think people who get suckered should just suffer with no penalities to the guy who made the loan then sold it? |
| 20:05.14 | pashdown | it is called loan sharking for a reason |
| 20:06.48 | neybar | I can really only comment on my personal experience. I can say personally, that it looks cool when you get handed free money, but I decided there had to be something wrong, so I backed away and bough a very modest home. I don't even have servants or a pool and I'm pretty happy. |
| 20:07.44 | pashdown | but the object of these people giving bad loans is not to help you, its to fool you. good for us that we weren't fooled. bad for the people who were. that doesn't mean that fraud should go unpunished or unregulated. |
| 20:08.27 | harleypig | pashdown: it shoudln't, but neither should the fooled be bailed out. |
| 20:08.32 | levi | From what I can tell, the CRA initially increased subprime loans, but it wasn't the primary force behind the recent pressure on the financial system to produce them in dangerous quantity. |
| 20:08.50 | neybar | I agree that it is a sticky situation. I don't know what the answer. I definately think that the one doing the crime should be punished. I don't know how to deal with the people who were fooled. |
| 20:08.51 | Heartsbane | funny undertakingyou and I were having this discussion just before SLLUG |
| 20:08.52 | pashdown | harleypig, the fools aren't getting bailed out, the perps are. |
| 20:09.20 | pashdown | is punishing the crime or the victim the object here? |
| 20:09.46 | harleypig | the crime, but enabling the victim shouldn't happen as a by product. |
| 20:09.54 | pashdown | whenever i've been pitched an ARM, they always "but interest rates aren't going to go up!" |
| 20:10.27 | levi | pashdown: The guys pitching ARMs to individuals are pretty far removed from the big mortgage lenders, though. |
| 20:10.27 | pashdown | 'always say' |
| 20:10.30 | fozzmoo | Both the lenders and the borrowers are guilty of (a) being stupid and irresponsible or (b) being greedy |
| 20:10.41 | neybar | lets look at it another way. If you buy stock because it is a shining star, but turns out to be a turd, do you get your money back? If there was something illegal the SEC gets involved and puts the criminals in jail, but they don't go around handing out refund checks to the people that bought the stock. |
| 20:10.47 | harleypig | fozzmoo: s/or/and/ |
| 20:10.58 | fozzmoo | harleypig: Okay,yeah. :) |
| 20:11.00 | pashdown | i don't think it is greedy to simply want a house to put your family in. we're not talking about mansions in every case. we're talking about $100K houses. |
| 20:11.32 | fozzmoo | pashdown: You're right. The media likes to point out the stories of the guy drying cars at the car wash that buys a 2.5 million dollar house with no proof of income... |
| 20:11.37 | fozzmoo | but that isn't the typical situation. |
| 20:12.01 | fozzmoo | When my wife and I bought our current house in 2003, we had to employ "creative financing" because I was self-employed at the time and wasn't making a whole lot of money... |
| 20:12.22 | fozzmoo | fortunately, things have turned out well for us and we've never been at risk of delinquency. |
| 20:12.40 | fozzmoo | But I can see how many people could have been sucked into a bad situation. |
| 20:13.11 | fozzmoo | But that's a risk the buyer takes... and they need to take responsibility for that risk THEY took. |
| 20:13.25 | pashdown | the loans were given on ridiculous terms and then sold as fast as possible. the big institutions were in on these transactions and that is why they are suffering now. |
| 20:13.32 | harleypig | If a monthly payment is out of your range, then it's out of your range, whether it's a $100K or $100M |
| 20:13.59 | pashdown | no doubt harleypig, but if it is range and the salesperson says it will always be in range, what do you believe? |
| 20:14.22 | levi | pashdown: I think there's also some blame to be assigned to the people who created the CDOs and the risk-rating institutions that failed to notice the immense risk that was hiding in them. |
| 20:14.23 | harleypig | Not the salesperson, and a person who does believe the sales droid learns a hard lesson in life. |
| 20:14.34 | pashdown | levi, like AIG? |
| 20:15.05 | pashdown | do you believe that fraud and suckering should go unchecked? |
| 20:15.19 | levi | Nope, I don't. |
| 20:15.33 | levi | I think I'm in agreement with you. |
| 20:15.53 | fozzmoo | By "unchecked," what do you mean? |
| 20:16.06 | fozzmoo | By AIG getting "bailed out," I think a LOT is going unchecked. |
| 20:16.08 | pashdown | unregulated fozz |
| 20:16.47 | fozzmoo | I think letting stupid/greedy/bad businesses fail and feel the pain of failure is a mighty effective deterent. |
| 20:17.32 | fozzmoo | I'm not convinced regulation would have helped. |
| 20:17.47 | harleypig | even if it means that familys suffer ... it's a hard lesson, but one that will be effective for a generation. |
| 20:17.52 | harleypig | and possibly more. |
| 20:18.02 | fozzmoo | And I hope whatever regulation that gets proposed can be shown that it would have deterred what has happened. |
| 20:18.07 | pashdown | the problem lies in the aftershocks. if these irresponsible businesses had gone on to failure, the housing market would collapse completely. that means the construction market too. what unemployment rate are you willing to accept to punish wall street? |
| 20:18.20 | fozzmoo | wonders if he just typed in some dialect of English |
| 20:18.53 | RyanE | head explodes trying to read 3 tenses into fozzmoo's sentence |
| 20:19.41 | pashdown | phil gramm was responsible for removing a depression-era banking law that caused much of this. a DEPRESSION-ERA BANKING law. did he not think that it was drafted for a reason the first time around? |
| 20:19.48 | fozzmoo | pashdown: That almost sounds like we should bail out the small businesses and let Wall Street fail, but I don't hear anyone saying "They're too small to fail." |
| 20:19.52 | pashdown | and yes, clinton signed it |
| 20:20.24 | pashdown | fozz are you advocating for the collapse of wall street? :-) |
| 20:20.34 | fozzmoo | pashdown: don't tempt me. :) |
| 20:20.49 | levi | So, I'm trying to figure out if AIG created CDOs or just bought the highly-rated traunches of CDOs. |
| 20:21.30 | fozzmoo | I'm gung-ho for collapse if it means we rebuild better. (i.e. not like the WTC which is still a big hole in the ground) |
| 20:21.48 | pashdown | they guaranteed CDOs, which could be considered creation |
| 20:23.20 | levi | So, they were betting that the AAA-ratings actually meant something. |
| 20:24.22 | levi | Modern finance is insane. |
| 20:26.00 | fozzmoo | And largely still experimental. |
| 20:26.56 | levi | Indeed, and since they're experimenting with the livelihood of our nation, I think regulation and oversight is to be called for. |
| 20:27.26 | levi | There's nothing 'conservative' about what's been going on in the financial market lately. |
| 20:33.43 | fozzmoo | Hmmm. What if transparency was the answer instead of regulation? |
| 20:33.57 | fozzmoo | It seems there are too many layers to transactions. |
| 20:34.05 | levi | Well, I would say that transparency requirements are a form of regulation. |
| 20:34.27 | unum | agreed |
| 20:34.47 | levi | In fact, Wall Street actively lobbies *against* transparency laws because they are "inefficient". |
| 20:35.44 | levi | I think transparency would have helped in the current situation, though I'm not sure if it would have prevented it or not. |
| 20:36.31 | neybar | *tongue in cheek* so who regulates the regulators. With that much money in play, are we just enacting laws that are going to be disregarded anyway? I don't have much trust that regulation is going to do much good anyway except maybe make the waters muddy. |
| 20:37.34 | levi | Well, like I said earlier, the SEC gave exceptions to legal restrictions on the amount of debt leveraging a financial institution can participate in. 3 of those 5 have failed so far. |
| 20:38.02 | levi | So, that's clearly a failure of regulation that wasn't caused by politicians. |
| 20:38.25 | levi | But increased transparency might have changed a lot of decisions. |
| 20:39.21 | levi | From what I've read lately, AIG largely insured the top tranches of mortgage-backed CDOs, which were supposed to be A to AAA-rated, which is supposed to be as safe as bonds. |
| 20:52.07 | nick125 | Well, we saw what happens when we let the industry regulate itself. |
| 21:02.04 | unum | man my materialized view is never going to materialize |
| 21:02.13 | unum | maybe I should have done this different.... |
| 21:08.55 | levi | Materialized view? |
| 21:11.26 | unum | in postgresql |
| 21:11.41 | unum | basically caching the result of a query |
| 21:15.02 | jsmith | unum: That's the point of materialized views -- they don't update unless you tell them to :-) |
| 21:15.39 | unum | jsmith: the problem is I need to load six months worth of data in at once |
| 21:15.58 | jsmith | unum: If you want a materialized view that always auto-updates, you don't want a materialized view, just a normal view |
| 21:16.02 | unum | actually I guess it's less than five months worth |
| 21:16.19 | jsmith | OK... what does that have to do with it? |
| 21:16.28 | unum | that's what I'm waiting for |
| 21:16.57 | unum | is for all the old data to be copied into the materialized view than I can just update the rows that need updating when they are updated... |
| 21:17.55 | jsmith | So it's taking a long time to actually update the view, or to get the data into the table in the first place? |
| 21:18.04 | levi | Ahh, DB stuff. |
| 21:18.16 | unum | to get the data in the table in the first place |
| 21:21.07 | levi | So, I'm now thinking that the root cause of the financial collapse was simply an overabundance of money in the world market. There was nothing good to invest it in, because the people of the world just don't have enough money to support more traditional commerce right now. So, the market invented some crap for the money to get funneled into that *looked* like a good investment even though it wasn't. |
| 21:22.18 | levi | I'm betting that if NINA loans had been illegal, some other scheme would have been invented to create investment vehicles. |
| 21:23.29 | levi | People would have still been screwed over by it. |
| 21:27.06 | levi | Because it would almost certainly have required convincing people to take out large loans to invest in a "sure thing". |
| 21:27.36 | eggyknap | unum: I keep meaning to look more at your UDBUG email, but haven |
| 21:27.41 | eggyknap | ...'t had the chance |
| 21:27.48 | eggyknap | Stoopid accidental Enter key |
| 21:27.55 | levi | Anyway, that's enough thinking about politics and finance for me today. |
| 21:30.01 | unum | eggyknap: I think the right decision will be dependent on trial an error |
| 21:30.24 | harleypig | and judicious accidental discharges to the temple |
| 21:30.28 | unum | I'm going to try and eager materialized view on the developement database and see where that gets me |
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| 22:05.55 | unum | stupid users |
| 22:06.01 | unum | burn them! |
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| 23:14.00 | harleypig | Can someone give me a formula to take an epoch second and give me the last full minute (e.g., convert 14:49:34 (in an epoch format) and make it 14:49:00)? |
| 23:14.35 | harleypig | err ... thinking something like epoch - epoch % 60 ... but that's not quite right. |
| 23:16.40 | harleypig | wait ... that does look like it ... must've fat fingered something. |
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