| 00:38.28 | levi | Huh, Codeweavers released a packaging of Google Chrome + Wine for OS X and Linux |
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| 01:31.33 | *** join/#utah mosesport (n=Moses@97-117-30-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 01:40.08 | mosesport | How are people? |
| 01:40.25 | nick125 | good, you? |
| 01:43.46 | mosesport | not bad at all...got a new schedule. now i have tuesdays and wednesdays off... today's my friday :) |
| 01:44.00 | nick125 | awesome |
| 01:44.23 | mosesport | indeed |
| 01:44.59 | nick125 | Then again, when everyone is out partying on Saturday night (*ahem*), you'll probably be not so happy :p |
| 02:04.08 | levi | I am not looking forward to doing this .net crap for my homework assignment. |
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| 02:21.06 | dilvie | hey mosesport |
| 02:21.12 | dilvie | I figured out who you are. =) |
| 02:21.27 | dilvie | I don't hate you. |
| 02:22.16 | dilvie | You left a respectful comment with constructive criticism. |
| 02:22.28 | dilvie | I disagreed with the critique. |
| 02:22.38 | dilvie | Glad we got that cleared up. |
| 02:59.14 | mrpull-x | test |
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| 02:59.48 | levi | What's up, dilvie? |
| 03:00.03 | dilvie | hi levi |
| 03:00.10 | dilvie | not much. =) |
| 03:01.10 | levi | I was just reading the latest debunkings on factcheck.org and politifact.com |
| 03:01.38 | fozzmoo | levi: isn't factcheck.org awesome?! |
| 03:01.44 | dilvie | isn't it funny how much BS is spewed during an election? |
| 03:01.55 | fozzmoo | not really. kinda pathetic. |
| 03:02.05 | levi | Someone should create a virus that sets everyone's homepage to factcheck.org :P |
| 03:02.11 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 03:02.16 | levi | Certainly far too people see it. |
| 03:02.21 | levi | Er, far too few. |
| 03:03.09 | levi | fozzmoo: So, I have a bunch of family members that I converse with on spokt.com that are even more rabidly anti-liberal than you. |
| 03:05.03 | levi | They're devotees of the Limbaugh school of political debate, where you bluster and repeat as much derogatory bile about your political opponents as you can recall from the top of your head. |
| 03:07.17 | levi | It's been very frustrating, but I think I finally convinced them that they ought to check the truthfulness of the stuff they hear about their political opponents before passing it on. |
| 03:07.23 | fozzmoo | levi: heh. |
| 03:07.25 | fozzmoo | Yeah. |
| 03:07.29 | dilvie | haha, if you want some one-sided fact check, the Daily Show delivers with a healthy dose of humor. ;) |
| 03:08.14 | levi | fozzmoo: One of them suggested that I needed to read 'Obama Nation'. |
| 03:08.18 | fozzmoo | And Oberman will deliver with contemptuous disdain. :) |
| 03:08.29 | fozzmoo | levi: Why? |
| 03:08.41 | fozzmoo | Why do you *need* to read that, supposedly? |
| 03:08.51 | levi | fozzmoo: To find out how evil and nasty Obama is! |
| 03:08.58 | dilvie | haha |
| 03:09.01 | dilvie | yeah. |
| 03:09.13 | fozzmoo | I've seen that guy on TV... the author of Obama Nation. I don't care much for the guy. |
| 03:09.19 | levi | It's a book; it must be true. |
| 03:09.20 | dilvie | My mother once told me her big talent that she's really proud of is the talent for belief. |
| 03:09.36 | nick125 | has sort of "given up" on politics |
| 03:09.45 | fozzmoo | there's another book that points out some stuff about Obama... I'd trust that guy's book a lot more... |
| 03:09.51 | levi | I like that the latest factcheck.org is a debunking of it. |
| 03:10.34 | levi | fozzmoo: Yeah, I heard about that one too, and I'd consider reading that one if I had time for a book-length read, but I doubt it'd tell me much I haven't heard already. |
| 03:10.34 | fozzmoo | Jerome Corsi... that's the guy who wrote Obama Nation. |
| 03:10.44 | levi | Yeah. Mr. Swift Boat. |
| 03:11.18 | fozzmoo | here's everything I care to know about Obama: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/series8.aspx |
| 03:11.45 | levi | fozzmoo: Heh. |
| 03:11.56 | levi | fozzmoo: Go see what real Socialists think about him. |
| 03:12.16 | fozzmoo | Oh, I'm sure real socialists don't like his centrist spoutings... |
| 03:12.36 | fozzmoo | I think that's just lip service. |
| 03:12.48 | fozzmoo | The Case Against Barack Obama |
| 03:12.50 | fozzmoo | That's the other book. |
| 03:15.57 | levi | No, their analyses have nothing to do with his 'spoutings', they're full of the same sort of 'guilt by association' stuff as your ibdeditorials pieces. |
| 03:16.30 | fozzmoo | "Show me your friends and I'll show you your future." |
| 03:16.56 | levi | Yes, yes, but how do you reconcile the 'Obama the corporatist' with 'Obama the socialist'? |
| 03:17.03 | fozzmoo | corporatist? |
| 03:17.22 | levi | Yes, that's what the socialists paint him as. |
| 03:17.23 | fozzmoo | we're talking about a guy who turned down a job on Wall Street to go be a community leader. |
| 03:17.37 | fozzmoo | he and his wife advise kids to shun "corporate America." |
| 03:17.57 | levi | Yes, but he's in the pocket of Big Money now! |
| 03:18.06 | fozzmoo | His campaign sure is. |
| 03:18.14 | levi | And you can see it by his associations, policies, etc! |
| 03:18.24 | fozzmoo | Gotta run. Wife is dragging me off to watch Sarah Connor. |
| 03:18.39 | levi | You're never going to get a straight story from editorials, that's all I'm saying. |
| 03:19.22 | levi | A steady diet of one-sided editorials and a bit of confirmation bias... hey! You can find mounds of evidence for anything you want to believe! |
| 03:19.23 | fozzmoo | True... but those editorials aren't all opinion. plenty of meat there. and it's not ann coulter. it's Investors Business Daily. a little more reputable. |
| 03:19.51 | levi | It's a bunch of *editorials*. No one's editorial page is 'reputable' as a news source. |
| 03:20.04 | levi | That's where you go to see someone's biased commentary. |
| 03:20.42 | levi | There's no doubt Obama has socialist leanings. I happen to like that. |
| 03:21.05 | levi | He's not a closet communist, though. |
| 03:21.51 | mrpull-x | levi: do you believe socialism can work in America? |
| 03:22.26 | levi | mrpull-x: Depends on how you define 'socialism', but I believe it has and is working to some extent in America. |
| 03:24.51 | levi | I would like to see somewhat progressive taxation, government-sponsored research, universal health care, and a healthy market. I'd like to see less corporate influence on government. |
| 03:28.43 | levi | I also have some basic philisophical disagreements with Libertarianism, though I quite liked it before I started seriously looking into it. |
| 03:29.43 | levi | Basically, I'm more worried right now by corporatism and unchecked growth of income inequality than I am about the Red Scare. |
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| 03:36.23 | levi | fozzmoo: I still don't understand the fear with which you discuss Obama's 'community organizing'. |
| 03:37.04 | levi | If the government isn't supposed to be a charity, and 'community organizing' nonprofits are somehow scary and bad, who's going to look out for the poor? |
| 03:37.22 | elg | wal-mart |
| 03:38.14 | levi | I've never understood what's supposed to happen to poor people in the conservative worldview. |
| 03:40.00 | levi | Well, I get that they're supposed to *not* be poor by working hard and being entrepreneurial and stuff, but might I suggest that that's a bit unrealistic as a real solution?: |
| 03:40.27 | elg | don't forget less taxes |
| 03:41.01 | levi | Well, conservatives are fond of pointing out that they're *already* shirking their fair share of the tax burden. |
| 03:41.26 | levi | (or, when being more generous, that they're already not being asked to pay) |
| 03:42.13 | elg | i hear that more from liberals than conservatives |
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| 03:42.28 | mosesport | Patrick Stewart was a good Professor X |
| 03:42.32 | elg | i mean I hear that that's what conservatives say from liberals more than i do hear conservatives saying it |
| 03:42.44 | levi | I heard Rush making the less-generous statement just a couple of weeks ago in response to Obama's acceptance speech while I was picking up flowers for my wife. |
| 03:43.12 | levi | They don't really mention it unless Liberals talk about cutting taxes for the poor and middle-class. |
| 03:44.09 | levi | What it boils down to is different ideas about what 'fair' means, and basic philosophical stuff like that. |
| 03:44.52 | elg | yarp |
| 03:45.02 | elg | me i like the flat tax idea |
| 03:45.52 | levi | With or without a credit at the bottom? |
| 03:46.32 | elg | whatever |
| 03:46.51 | levi | Without a credit for low-income people, a flat tax is horribly regressive. |
| 03:47.49 | levi | The only advantage I see to it is appealing to a definition of 'fair' that I don't believe in, but I recognize that it's compelling to a lot of people. |
| 03:52.09 | levi | Anyway, I don't think grossly progressive tax structures are a good idea either. |
| 04:11.20 | levi | My political philosophy right now is roughly Rawlsian. |
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| 04:34.38 | fozzmoo | I'm back and I'm ticked off! |
| 04:34.39 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 04:36.33 | fozzmoo | levi: you asked "If the government isn't supposed to be a charity, and 'community organizing' nonprofits are somehow scary and bad, who's going to look out for the poor?" |
| 04:37.07 | fozzmoo | I don't have a problem with Obama having been a community organizer. In fact, I think it's great that he dedicated considerable time helping the less fortunate people in Chicago. that's great. |
| 04:37.39 | fozzmoo | What bothers me is that out of that, he and his wife eventually were involved in creating this non-profit organization called Public Allies. |
| 04:39.01 | fozzmoo | Over the last 19 months, Barack and Michelle have both mentioned these vague plans to create "green corps," civillian service organization to be a counterpart to the military, and other service-type programs, even "mandatory service" programs. |
| 04:39.43 | fozzmoo | one of those editorials by IBD points out that Public Allies is the template on which President Obama would create these service programs. |
| 04:39.51 | fozzmoo | On the face of it, this doesn't seem like a bad thing. |
| 04:40.13 | fozzmoo | I take issue with people doing service for reasons other than their own desire to do good for others. |
| 04:40.42 | fozzmoo | It's a bit offensive to talk to people who get their Eagle Scout award because they think it will help them get into a good college or something like that. |
| 04:41.56 | fozzmoo | There is one paragraph in one of those IBD stories that really stands out... |
| 04:42.01 | fozzmoo | "Our alumni are more than twice as likely as 18-34 year olds to . . . engage in protest activities," Public Allies boasts in a document found with its tax filings. It has already deployed an army of 2,200 community organizers like Obama to agitate for "justice" and "equality" in his hometown of Chicago and other U.S. cities, including Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York, Phoenix, Pittsburgh and Washington. "I get to practice being an activist," and get p |
| 04:42.23 | fozzmoo | Public Allies is already over 50% funded by state and federal government funds. |
| 04:42.32 | fozzmoo | That's offensive to me. |
| 04:42.51 | fozzmoo | Now, back to your original question... who is going to look out for the poor? |
| 04:43.17 | fozzmoo | I don't believe it is the government's job to look after the poor ...or the rich, or the middle class. |
| 04:43.57 | fozzmoo | I don't think the federal government has any business swooping in to Hurricane-stricken areas and setting up relief assistance. |
| 04:44.12 | levi | Well, I think it does. |
| 04:44.16 | fozzmoo | Prior to the 1930s, there was no office of the federal government that did that. |
| 04:44.18 | *** part/#utah mosesport (n=Moses@97-117-30-174.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 04:44.57 | fozzmoo | It was Herbert Hoover, a Republican, that decided taxpayer's money should be spent to help people who were suffering as a result of floods in the early 1930s. |
| 04:44.59 | levi | I'm pleased that I live today, and not prior to the 1930s. |
| 04:45.02 | fozzmoo | What did people do before that? |
| 04:45.08 | fozzmoo | They took care of themselves. |
| 04:45.16 | fozzmoo | communities pitched together to help one another. |
| 04:45.28 | levi | And they don't do that anymore? |
| 04:45.32 | fozzmoo | People didn't climb onto their roofs and wait for the feds to come by in their helicopters. |
| 04:46.06 | fozzmoo | Churches, civil service organizations like the Lions Club, Jaycees, and others played a larger role. |
| 04:46.26 | fozzmoo | My dad is a regional leader in the state Lions Club organization. they have such a difficult time getting people involved anymore. |
| 04:46.50 | fozzmoo | Why? because the government builds parks now. The government does all this crap that "we" used to do ourselves. |
| 04:47.19 | fozzmoo | Meanwhile, look at the solvency of our current federal government. |
| 04:47.42 | fozzmoo | is it really in a position to be the moneybags for all these service corps organizations? |
| 04:48.01 | levi | Is it really in a position to be fighting wars? |
| 04:48.21 | fozzmoo | Probably not. |
| 04:48.50 | levi | At least Obama wants to channel money through local organizations rather than trying to direct things from Washington. |
| 04:49.07 | fozzmoo | Whatever. |
| 04:49.12 | fozzmoo | it's all corrupt, if you ask me. |
| 04:49.18 | fozzmoo | Obama's not a reformer. |
| 04:49.37 | fozzmoo | Name one thing Obama did to change the tone of local politics in Chicago. |
| 04:49.58 | fozzmoo | He has stood behind the mayor (going to jail) |
| 04:50.34 | fozzmoo | He's said nothing about Charles Rangle, head of the House ways and means committee, as it is uncovered he's been avoiding paying income taxes for the last 30 years... |
| 04:50.50 | levi | As far as I can tell, he's as close to what I'd like to see in a public servant as I've seen on a Presidential ballot in a while. |
| 04:50.50 | fozzmoo | meanwhile, Obama ads are taking credit for passing some sweeping ethics reform in congress. |
| 04:51.57 | fozzmoo | He's an admirable person, but I think his ideas of growing government... to help you, me, Sally Muckenfutch, and everyone else in the country, is just going to drive our country into the ground. |
| 04:51.58 | levi | I can't say I'm in love with him, but I respect him and I think he's the better of the two candidates. |
| 04:52.26 | levi | I think McCain is more likely to drive the country into the ground. |
| 04:52.38 | fozzmoo | that's not to say McCain's much better... but Palin is and hopefully she'd keep McCain from spending more and more money a la Bush. |
| 04:53.13 | levi | I really don't think Palin is any more of a reformer than McCain is. |
| 04:53.48 | levi | Alaska is pork central, and she played the game too, off and on. |
| 04:53.57 | fozzmoo | You're right about that. |
| 04:54.55 | fozzmoo | She's not perfect, but I think she espouses a better, more common sense idea of the role of the government than any of the other 3 people on the tickets. |
| 04:55.03 | fozzmoo | And that is "smaller." |
| 04:55.06 | levi | They're Republicans. Republicans promise fiscal responsibility and deliver deficit spending, at least judging by recent history. |
| 04:55.29 | fozzmoo | That's certainly the record of the GOP the last 8 years. |
| 04:55.47 | fozzmoo | Bush didn't veto a damn thing until a couple years ago and even then, sparingly. |
| 04:55.56 | fozzmoo | spend spend spend. |
| 04:56.14 | fozzmoo | That's my money! |
| 04:56.17 | fozzmoo | That's your money. |
| 04:56.19 | fozzmoo | That's our money. |
| 04:56.52 | fozzmoo | I made a decision about a week ago- something new in my own personal political philosophy. |
| 04:57.08 | fozzmoo | government-operated "social programs" are not a bad thing. |
| 04:57.15 | fozzmoo | I know. Big shocker coming from me. |
| 04:57.29 | fozzmoo | But I think they should be operated as close to the beneficiaries as possible. |
| 04:57.46 | fozzmoo | There is no way any kind of social program can be effectively operated at the federal level. |
| 04:58.05 | *** join/#utah Midorikawa (n=insanemo@oldoffice.bluehost.com) |
| 04:58.09 | fozzmoo | You want a government operated relief for the poor- set it up within your city. |
| 04:58.28 | fozzmoo | Same goes for public education. |
| 04:58.38 | fozzmoo | A guy in my ward is a principal in Taylorsville. |
| 04:58.41 | fozzmoo | tells me they |
| 04:58.56 | fozzmoo | they've got a bunch of refugees from Africa at his school. |
| 04:59.13 | fozzmoo | No Child Left Behind says they've got 1 year to get those kids fluent in english to their grade level. |
| 04:59.16 | fozzmoo | That's just ridiculous. |
| 04:59.24 | levi | I would be willing to go along with a system like that, although I still think successful federal programs are possible. |
| 05:00.03 | levi | I don't think No Child Left Behind was a particularly good approach to education. |
| 05:00.04 | fozzmoo | But, that's exactly the kind of crap you have to deal with when you've got a huge monolithic bureaucracy operated by dingbats like Orrin Hatch, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, etc. in D.C. |
| 05:00.21 | fozzmoo | Oh- and that stupid ass from Idaho. |
| 05:00.25 | fozzmoo | the bathroom guy. |
| 05:00.48 | levi | Heh. |
| 05:01.21 | fozzmoo | you know what really ticks me off? Nobody's talking about illegal immigration. |
| 05:01.49 | fozzmoo | Did something happen between 2006 and 2008 that I missed. Did we fix the problems everyone was so upset then about? |
| 05:02.19 | fozzmoo | Or did we just decide the votes/cheap labor was important now? |
| 05:02.21 | levi | Well, McCain and Obama have both mentioned plans to deal with it. |
| 05:02.32 | fozzmoo | McCain's Mr. Open Borders. |
| 05:02.46 | fozzmoo | Obama will probably want to convene a summit or something. |
| 05:03.11 | fozzmoo | How about "enforce the laws" ?! |
| 05:03.40 | fozzmoo | Or let the states, cities, and counties enforce the laws. |
| 05:03.55 | fozzmoo | (which they've started to do as a result of inaction.) |
| 05:03.58 | levi | Apparently it's up to states whether ESL students get to take NCLB assessment tests in English or their native language. |
| 05:04.35 | levi | It's also up to states what kind of tests to give for assessment. |
| 05:09.57 | levi | Anyway, it's refreshing to discuss this stuff with you after dealing with my rabid cousins. |
| 05:10.04 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 05:10.25 | fozzmoo | My dad was a Utah state senator for 12 years... |
| 05:10.51 | fozzmoo | one of the few on Capitol Hill that wasn't an attorney in their day job. |
| 05:11.23 | fozzmoo | So, family dinner discussions tend to be fairly political (much to my wife's chagrin) |
| 05:12.00 | fozzmoo | they usually stay pretty sensible... but my brother is in the camp with your cousins on some things. |
| 05:12.24 | fozzmoo | He wanted to hang some signs up around the valley that said "Saddam Hussein for border patrol" |
| 05:12.37 | levi | My dad, on the other hand, has been an attorney since I was 9 or so, though for the Army. |
| 05:12.54 | levi | And he never talked about politics much. |
| 05:12.56 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 05:13.26 | levi | Or lawyering, for that matter. |
| 05:14.02 | levi | Rush was on the radio a lot during long trips, but otherwise I was left to come up with my political views pretty much by myself. |
| 05:14.17 | fozzmoo | I was a big Rush fan until 3 years ago. |
| 05:14.39 | levi | I always hated talk radio. I wanted music. |
| 05:14.51 | fozzmoo | I still like him- and I appreciate that he'll stop and take the time to correct someone who calls in with obscene generalities about how our government works. |
| 05:15.21 | fozzmoo | But he's a party guy and that's perturbs me right now. |
| 05:16.06 | fozzmoo | Democrats promised us major changes from congress in the first 100 days during the 2006 campaign. |
| 05:16.10 | fozzmoo | they've delivered... nothing. |
| 05:16.18 | fozzmoo | well, unless you count all the symbolic resolutions and what not. |
| 05:16.24 | fozzmoo | they've passed more of those than any other congress. |
| 05:17.19 | fozzmoo | I'm just bitter and I'm clinging to my God and if I had a gun, I'd be clinging to it too. |
| 05:17.22 | levi | I haven't watched too closely, but my understanding is that Republicans have been making it difficult for them to do anything. The Democrats don't exactly have a large majority. |
| 05:17.49 | levi | But I'm sure a large portion of blame falls on the Democrats as well. |
| 05:18.08 | levi | BTW, are you familiar with Rawls? |
| 05:18.40 | fozzmoo | nope. afraid not. |
| 05:19.12 | levi | I've found he's the political philosopher who I find myself most agreeing with at the moment. |
| 05:19.35 | fozzmoo | John Rawls. |
| 05:19.40 | levi | Yeah. |
| 05:19.52 | fozzmoo | Not Lou Rawls. :) |
| 05:21.17 | levi | I'm sure you will have some disagreement with him, but he's got an interesting approach and his theory of Political Liberalism embraces the idea of different ideologies coming to agreement on core principles. |
| 05:21.55 | fozzmoo | I will read up on it. Thank you for the pointer. |
| 05:22.09 | levi | I find that a lot of conservatives see all liberalism as Marxist, and that's just not the case. |
| 05:22.20 | fozzmoo | No, it's not. |
| 05:22.46 | fozzmoo | There's progressivism... there's socialism... and then there's Marxism. |
| 05:23.11 | levi | Marxism is pretty well-defined, but the others are rather fuzzy. |
| 05:23.18 | fozzmoo | Yes. |
| 05:23.38 | fozzmoo | Have you read any Ayn Rand? |
| 05:23.42 | levi | A little bit. |
| 05:23.46 | levi | I'm not fond of her. |
| 05:23.56 | fozzmoo | I'm starting on Atlas Shrugged for the second time. |
| 05:24.20 | fozzmoo | I don't like her "selfishness is a good thing" ideas... |
| 05:24.36 | fozzmoo | but I do like her "get the government out of my way so I can get things done" ideas. |
| 05:24.57 | fozzmoo | and, of course, her vile hatred for wealth redistribution. |
| 05:25.11 | levi | Vile hatred indeed. ;) |
| 05:28.02 | levi | I find arguments for private property as a natural right unconvincing and impractical, though I agree with it as a constructed right with limitations. Thus I have no moral qualms with progressive taxation and wealth redistribution in principle. |
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| 05:32.02 | levi | I don't really *like* taxes, and I would like to see them lower for everyone, but I am of two minds about where I would like to see government go. I still have a lot of thinking to do on it. |
| 05:35.37 | levi | I find Rand and the likes of Milton Friedman and Ludwig von Mises to be really distasteful. |
| 05:36.11 | Sargun | I don't mind taxes as long as they go to my fellow man, and not overseas to defend a country I don't care about |
| 05:38.21 | levi | I don't mind them terribly. I'm annoyed at the people who insist that income tax is essentially armed robbery. |
| 05:38.58 | levi | (as the poor PLUG subscribers saw at great length a couple of months ago when Ron Paul was a big topic) |
| 05:39.24 | levi | Gah, I need to quit thinking about politics and do my stupid homework. |
| 05:39.53 | JoshH | i think taxes are certainly necessary if we don't want to live in a country completely ruled by corportions and crime |
| 05:40.29 | levi | I hate trying to dive into code I don't care about in a language I don't care about on a platform I don't care about, even if the small portion of the code that's actually domain-specific is interesting. |
| 05:41.33 | JoshH | fozzmoo: if the government didn't do something about major cities that suffer extensive damage from storms and floods, i think it would be far worse for the country in the long run |
| 05:41.41 | levi | One of my beefs with libertarianism is that I can imagine it leading to exactly that. |
| 05:41.51 | JoshH | sure, people in small towns can get together and rebuild a barn |
| 05:42.37 | JoshH | but a city like new orleans, if damaged enough, you would have anarchy |
| 05:43.01 | JoshH | i know i don't want to have an area like somalia in this country |
| 05:43.26 | JoshH | nobody wants the government to tell them what to do with their lives, but the government should work for the people |
| 05:44.18 | levi | JoshH: I think everyone agrees on that, it's just the scale of government and the specific way that it 'works for the people' that are debated. |
| 05:44.24 | JoshH | you can't just expect 500,000 homeless people to head for the forest and cut down trees for a new house |
| 05:44.45 | JoshH | levi, right |
| 05:45.02 | JoshH | but there are people who really think bush/the government should have done absolutely nothing about katrina |
| 05:45.04 | levi | Libertarians want the government to be very small and work for the people by enforcing contracts and providing for the common defense. |
| 05:45.46 | levi | I would have to guess that Libertarians would be among those people. |
| 05:45.52 | JoshH | i think one shouldn't be considered a leftist/socialist/etc for believing that the government should make sure the country remains a nice place to live, even if it means spending tax money to help people |
| 05:46.15 | JoshH | when i think of "wealth redistribution |
| 05:46.37 | levi | Spending tax money to help people is pretty much the definition of wealth redistribution. |
| 05:46.38 | JoshH | i don't think of any old "social program" |
| 05:47.13 | levi | Making 'socialism' into a bogeyman has been a very successful aim of the right wing. |
| 05:47.20 | JoshH | ya, exactly |
| 05:47.26 | JoshH | i probably shouldn't be trying to discuss politics this late |
| 05:47.46 | JoshH | but i just saw your conversation with fozz and thought it was interesting |
| 05:48.59 | levi | There are a lot of outspoken libertarian-types here, and I find myself a vocal minority in that issue, along with many others. :) |
| 05:49.15 | levi | I also like emacs. |
| 05:49.40 | JoshH | heh, i've seen that brought up before |
| 05:49.44 | levi | And I'm not a fan of the FSF. |
| 05:49.46 | JoshH | i used to consider myself a libertarian |
| 05:50.23 | JoshH | but after a while i started thinking about what a completely privatized world would be like |
| 05:50.28 | levi | I also use Windows and OS X along with Linux. |
| 05:51.02 | JoshH | and i realized that life should be about enjoying the finer things, and it's ok if the government makes a lot of nice things possible |
| 05:51.14 | levi | Pure capitalism is great if you've got a lot of captial. ;) |
| 05:51.40 | JoshH | i think at the extremes, a purely capitalist state would be no more fun than a communist one |
| 05:51.48 | levi | I completely agree. |
| 05:53.45 | levi | One of my problems with Libertarianism is that it's too simple. It attracts people who want to be able to easily analyze situations and come up with an ethical right/wrong decision. It offers simple definitions of things like 'rights', 'justice', 'fairness', etc. |
| 05:54.16 | JoshH | we can benefit from the innovation and competition we get from a free market, and still enjoy the benefits of a government that helps out with some of the basics |
| 05:54.19 | JoshH | ya, i agree |
| 05:55.07 | JoshH | my favorite thing about libertarianism is the believe that you should be allowed to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't have an unwelcome impact on anyone else |
| 05:55.37 | JoshH | but completely privatizing everything is just too extreme |
| 05:55.44 | levi | No, it's as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone's natural rights. |
| 05:56.12 | JoshH | i don't like how the right claims to have a monopoly on freedom |
| 05:56.13 | levi | Your actions can be terribly unwelcome as long as you're not infringing on rights. |
| 05:56.41 | JoshH | because personally, virtually every restriction on my life that i wish would disappear exists mostly because of conservatives |
| 05:57.26 | JoshH | levi: well, it makes sense to limit things like nuisances |
| 05:58.20 | levi | It makes sense, but if it's not infringing on your right to life, liberty, or property, then it's perfectly legal in a Libertarian state. |
| 05:59.21 | JoshH | well, my view isn't exactly the same as the libertarian platform |
| 05:59.53 | JoshH | i'm just saying, when the right wingers blab about liberty and freedom, it rings hollow to me |
| 06:00.28 | JoshH | they believe in the freedom to not give your money to the poor and have guns, but that's about it |
| 06:00.43 | levi | Well, liberty and freedom have different meanings to different people. |
| 06:00.46 | JoshH | well, and to be whatever religion you want |
| 06:01.12 | JoshH | but who doesn't believe in that |
| 06:01.33 | levi | Um, conservatives who hate Muslims? ;) |
| 06:02.00 | JoshH | i typed out "except islam" but i thought better of it :P |
| 06:02.51 | JoshH | but like you said, i think obama is the superior candidate |
| 06:03.38 | JoshH | he'll spend more tax money on people than mccain, instead of the kinds of things republicans blow money on, but i think america will be better off that way |
| 06:03.49 | levi | Conservatives want be free to set the standards of their local communities according to their moral views, instead of having a more liberal set of standards placed upon them. |
| 06:04.32 | levi | Well, according to the Obama and McCain plans, McCain ends up with a greater budget deficit. |
| 06:04.38 | JoshH | they think everyone in their "community" should have their morals forced upon them |
| 06:04.52 | JoshH | people like me think everyone should follow their own morals, and nothing should be forced on anyone |
| 06:05.49 | JoshH | liberals don't want to force liberal morals on anyone, they just don't want conservative morals forced on everyone |
| 06:06.04 | JoshH | i think a lot of conservatives have a hard time grasping that |
| 06:06.42 | levi | Well, traditionally law has reflected community values, and they want to hold on to that. |
| 06:07.17 | levi | There is something to be said for that. |
| 06:07.50 | levi | But I do tend to be more on the liberal side of that argument, even though my own values are fairly conservative. |
| 06:08.17 | JoshH | i don't agree with that kind of thinking, because there are always people in a community who are different, and they should be able to live how they want to |
| 06:08.57 | levi | Right, I'm not saying I agree either, but that seems to be where they're coming from. |
| 06:09.03 | JoshH | ya, i understand |
| 06:09.52 | levi | I think modern media amplifies the impression of social decline in morality, and that's very painful to conservatives. |
| 06:11.07 | JoshH | ya, conservatives want a sense of shared morality in society, and feel that their morality is the correct one, and that it's right to make that the standard |
| 06:12.20 | JoshH | i just think people should live how they want and mind their own business |
| 06:12.35 | levi | And if you believe in objectivism, and that your morality is objectively right, then it makes sense to legislate it. |
| 06:12.53 | JoshH | but ya, that's about the only thing i like about libertarianism, though i'm probably more moderate about it |
| 06:13.41 | JoshH | they think it makes sense to legislate it, but at the same time, they claim to be the ones who believe in freedom and liberty |
| 06:13.53 | JoshH | it's like they are intellectually dishonest but don't acknowledge it |
| 06:14.14 | JoshH | or well, like you said, just have a differnet idea about what freedom and liberty means |
| 06:14.42 | levi | Everyone believes that we are only free to do things that are not wrong. The difference lies in how you come to the conclusion of what things are wrong. |
| 06:15.03 | JoshH | but i don't see how you can be so "patriotic", claim to love america, and so forth, yet still believe that the federal government shouldn't lift a finger to aid after a major disaster |
| 06:15.20 | levi | If there is an objective standard of morality that can be shown to be correct, it makes sense to oblige people to comply with it. |
| 06:15.44 | JoshH | depends on what you mean by correct |
| 06:15.44 | levi | Because it would be of the highest benefit to society for everyone to behave morally. |
| 06:16.07 | JoshH | if it's correct in the same that outlawing murder is correct, that's one thing |
| 06:16.09 | levi | I don't think what I said was ambiguous. |
| 06:16.55 | JoshH | but if it's deemed correct because a religion teaches that it's correct, i don't think that can really be considered "shown to be correct" |
| 06:17.10 | levi | Right, I don't think that's sufficient standard to force compliance. |
| 06:17.40 | levi | By 'shown to be correct' I mean through convincing persuasion, such that everyone could agree. |
| 06:18.24 | JoshH | the agreed upon standards of what should and should not be allowed (the law) should be based upon things that any reasonable person would agree is wrong, like rape, murder, fraud, speeding, blaring music at midnight, etc |
| 06:18.43 | JoshH | other than that, morality should not be legislated |
| 06:18.44 | levi | (do all reasonable people believe that speeding is wrong?) |
| 06:18.50 | JoshH | yes :) |
| 06:19.09 | JoshH | well, i guess that could be a gray area, but that's why police can use their judgment about it |
| 06:19.09 | levi | And here I thought I was reasonable. |
| 06:19.40 | levi | Well, that's why we have a scale of severity for legal infractions. |
| 06:19.43 | JoshH | speeding when you are alone on an open ride by 7 or 8 miles over the limit is different than recklessly flying down the freeway in a city |
| 06:19.52 | JoshH | err, road |
| 06:20.43 | levi | Well, traffic on the freeway here regularly travels at > 10mph over the limit. It is arguably safer to travel with the flow rather than with a large difference in speed to the traffic around you. |
| 06:21.23 | levi | Recklessly weaving around through traffic is definitely a hazard, though. |
| 06:22.58 | JoshH | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:24.06 | levi | I think that's a fairly universal belief. |
| 06:24.37 | levi | Libertarians believe that that state of affairs will fall out thanks to market forces. |
| 06:25.05 | levi | I think they're on crack. But whatever. :) |
| 06:25.12 | JoshH | or they just think everyone who can't read or is disabled and has no relatives to help them cook food will just die off |
| 06:25.15 | JoshH | and they think that's ok |
| 06:25.42 | JoshH | or rather, they think that's preferable than the government using "force" to try to prevent such things |
| 06:26.35 | JoshH | they might think well, churches and nice good hearted religious people will just donate to help out in those cases |
| 06:26.47 | JoshH | but if it's not enough, oh well, just keep the govewrnment out of my wallet |
| 06:27.31 | levi | Well, I think they assume that people will form philanthropic organizations to take care of social needs. |
| 06:27.46 | JoshH | pure capitalism doesn't take the human factor into account, and that's my main problem with it |
| 06:28.39 | JoshH | i think if people would take care of those needs voluntarily, it would have happened already |
| 06:29.20 | JoshH | it's not like i expect the government and tax dollars to completely eliminate poverty |
| 06:30.14 | JoshH | just that i think it's in the best interest of our civilization and the human race to make sure that avenues for help exist |
| 06:30.39 | levi | The biggest danger that I see would be corporate usurpation of power. Capitalism tends to concentrate money in the hands of a few, and at that point instead of the government bureaucracy controlling things, you have corporate bureaucracies controlling things. |
| 06:31.45 | JoshH | ya, we would have to buy a monthly pass for every companies roads that we drove on |
| 06:31.57 | levi | Maybe Libertarians would gut corporate law such that corporations wouldn't be so powerful, though. |
| 06:31.57 | JoshH | it would be a horrible lifestyle |
| 06:32.11 | JoshH | most that i know think corporations should be able to do whatever they want |
| 06:32.31 | JoshH | within reason, somewhat |
| 06:32.46 | JoshH | "government regulation" is always bad |
| 06:33.13 | JoshH | "if a company was going to make an animal go extinct, the public would boycott it and it would go out of business" |
| 06:33.20 | levi | Corporations wouldn't even exist without government endorsement. |
| 06:33.31 | JoshH | even some republicans think that way |
| 06:33.34 | levi | If the public heard about it, sure. |
| 06:33.38 | levi | Maybe. |
| 06:34.15 | JoshH | walmart could be dumping african villages in mass graves and it would still be packed at all hours |
| 06:34.40 | levi | Anyway, I imagine Libertarians envision corporations differently than they are currently constituted, though I'm not sure about it. I'll have to look it up. |
| 06:35.43 | JoshH | from arguments i used to have with them on the net, the more extreme ones basically think corporations should do literally everything, except for national defense and local law enforcement, and those things would be funded voluntarily |
| 06:36.01 | JoshH | but of course there is a spectrum, like with any ideology |
| 06:37.29 | JoshH | but really, why would it be better to pay a business directly for every imagineable basic service, than to have money taxed to pay for police, the FDA, CDC, military, etc, |
| 06:38.11 | JoshH | it would be more hassle, you would constantly have to battle companies over your rights as a citizen and consumer, and you wouldn't have as much of a national identity |
| 06:39.20 | JoshH | i've only read enough ayn rand to understand that she doesn't think about those things, or that she does and has the ideology she has anyway for no logical reason |
| 06:39.25 | *** join/#utah whiteing1 (n=whiteing@166-70-191-39.ip.xmission.com) |
| 06:42.07 | levi | She does have logical reasons, though. |
| 06:42.28 | levi | The point of Libertarianism is that it's supposed to derive logically from the natural rights. |
| 06:42.48 | levi | And because of that, it's objectively right. |
| 06:44.38 | levi | If there are unpleasant consequences, that's too bad. Sometimes the right thing isn't pretty, and eventually everything will work out for the best because it's Right. |
| 06:45.11 | JoshH | technically yes, you could say that every human has the right to live their life completely left alone and not made to do anything. no taxes, no helping anyone, not working, etc |
| 06:45.24 | levi | (and apparently most Libertarians do believe that corporations would exist legally pretty much as they do now) |
| 06:45.32 | JoshH | but where are they going to do that? a city owned park? their own house? the mountains? |
| 06:45.53 | levi | On their own land, of course, or property they rent from someone else. |
| 06:45.56 | JoshH | but who is going to own the park or the land on the mountain? |
| 06:46.03 | JoshH | who do you buy land from? |
| 06:46.08 | JoshH | what company gets it |
| 06:46.46 | JoshH | or should the the government own and manage or sell the land? and if the government can do that, why can't it spend tax money on other basics and infrastructure? |
| 06:46.50 | levi | Well, originally you'd get it by travelling west and kicking the indigenous folks off of it. ;) |
| 06:47.30 | JoshH | it's like the libertarians say "wow, that sounds great, nothing but natural rights" but don't actually think about what it would really be like to practice what they preach |
| 06:48.47 | JoshH | they would have their own land, have it be defended somehow so someone else couldn't just put a fence around it, get their own food, shelter, etc. if they broke their leg, who would they call? their membership at the hospital might be expired, and no ambulance would come |
| 06:49.06 | levi | No, I think they think a great deal about it, and think it sounds great. |
| 06:49.15 | JoshH | if they bought food, who would make sure the company made the preparers wash their hands |
| 06:49.49 | JoshH | or do they think a private group would track cleanliness habits in the food industry and publish them so that the free market would decide who to avoid |
| 06:50.16 | JoshH | they think like that, and yet they accuse obama fans of being the ones who live in a fantasy world |
| 06:51.43 | JoshH | or they think, like obama says, that we can have 4 more years of bush (mccain) and expect a different result |
| 06:51.57 | levi | Yes, I think conservatives and libertarians do forget a lot of the little liberal things that make our world a better place right now. Though many of them don't, and still think the government should butt out of those things, that it's making us into a nation of pansies or something. |
| 06:52.10 | JoshH | they can't claim that palin is a maverick who will change things, because that's been debunked already |
| 06:52.52 | JoshH | same with mccain, really |
| 06:53.10 | JoshH | sure, he has a couple things that he is abnormal on, but he votes with bush almost every time |
| 06:54.21 | JoshH | i don't get this need to feel like you are in some kind of macho, non-wimpy country |
| 06:54.33 | JoshH | and that countries like france are "pussies" |
| 06:55.57 | JoshH | the fact is, the countries with the highest standards of living in the world are in europe, and much more socialist than we are. one of them doesn't even ban guns! yet anything remotely socialist, like healthcare or education, is going to lead us to totalitarianism |
| 06:57.23 | JoshH | i know people who say they are republican because their church teaches them to be self sufficient, and think the republican party supports self sufficiency and that democrats want everyone to beg for handouts |
| 06:58.03 | _tyler_ | <-- Libertarian! |
| 06:58.38 | JoshH | but corporate bailouts are needed and ok, since well, the demise of those corporations would be detrimental to everyone (but especially rich people) |
| 06:59.02 | JoshH | in those cases, it's ok for the market to not be truly, completely free |
| 06:59.38 | JoshH | but when it comes to helping a student get started, that's bad |
| 07:00.22 | _tyler_ | I hate to break it to you, but it looks like you're preaching to yourself and 39 and a half idlers. |
| 07:00.32 | _tyler_ | (well and me, of course) |
| 07:00.35 | JoshH | we have to make sure the rich people are ok, so their money can trickle down to everyone, but social programs that help people directly are evil |
| 07:00.52 | JoshH | ya, i guess you're right |
| 07:01.08 | JoshH | got a bit carried away there :) |
| 07:01.11 | _tyler_ | No worries; it's just that you're putting a lot of effort into this |
| 07:01.14 | JoshH | it happens when i get insomnia |
| 07:01.18 | _tyler_ | I hear ya |
| 07:02.10 | JoshH | hmm, it's 1:02 |
| 07:03.07 | _tyler_ | Indeed |
| 07:03.10 | _tyler_ | I have work at 9 |
| 07:03.32 | _tyler_ | :( |
| 07:04.00 | Sargun | 0900? |
| 07:04.03 | JoshH | same, though technically it's fine if i go in at 10 or 11 if i want to |
| 07:04.06 | Sargun | when do you have to leave |
| 07:04.36 | _tyler_ | 0900. And I have to leave at 8:50. |
| 07:04.49 | _tyler_ | I can go in late or work from home |
| 07:05.09 | _tyler_ | But, like most people, I'm sure, I'm far more productive if I wake up a little earlier and work from the office. |
| 07:05.28 | JoshH | i often can, but right now i need to do some things in the office |
| 07:06.07 | JoshH | i can be productive either way, but at work i have a much nicer computer and monitors, not to mention less distractions |
| 07:06.48 | _tyler_ | I have a daughter and stay at home wife |
| 07:06.50 | _tyler_ | So home is no good. |
| 07:07.05 | Sargun | _tyler_, do you have to take care of the daughter |
| 07:07.13 | JoshH | ya, same |
| 07:07.17 | Sargun | as in, is she <12 |
| 07:07.27 | _tyler_ | She's 7 months old. |
| 07:07.36 | JoshH | if i'm home, the woman wants me to be running around doing errands for her, getting her glasses of water, taking out the garbage, etc, no matter what work i need to do |
| 07:07.48 | _tyler_ | Exactly, JoshH |
| 07:08.01 | _tyler_ | They don't understand that every little thing cuts into our productivity |
| 07:08.17 | _tyler_ | They just think, "Oh, well since you aren't working today, you can help vaccum." |
| 07:08.23 | _tyler_ | As if, working from home means, vacation |
| 07:08.27 | JoshH | she considers it a day off for herself if i work from home on a day, since clearly i can take care of the baby and do my job at the same time |
| 07:08.29 | _tyler_ | -, |
| 07:08.33 | Sargun | they need to come up with baby cryogenics |
| 07:08.35 | _tyler_ | Yep :) |
| 07:08.55 | _tyler_ | They need to invent 48 hour days. |
| 07:09.00 | JoshH | you can't blame them though, i know i wouldn't be cut out for the housewife life |
| 07:09.03 | _tyler_ | And better narcotics :) |
| 07:09.08 | _tyler_ | Juuuuust kidding. |
| 07:09.08 | Sargun | _tyler_, that'd be nice too |
| 07:09.21 | _tyler_ | Oh man are you kiddin me |
| 07:09.28 | _tyler_ | My girl complains about how hard being a full time mother is |
| 07:09.38 | _tyler_ | But we have the easiest child ever |
| 07:09.44 | _tyler_ | Only now is she finally crying at all |
| 07:09.48 | _tyler_ | and only cause she's teething |
| 07:09.50 | Sargun | _tyler_, you have a grandaughter? |
| 07:09.58 | _tyler_ | My wife* |
| 07:10.00 | JoshH | not necessarily hard, but lots of menial tasks, and they miss adult interaction |
| 07:10.01 | Sargun | ah... |
| 07:10.09 | Sargun | _tyler_, oldy. |
| 07:10.11 | _tyler_ | She stays at home all day and plays Final Fantasy or WoW |
| 07:10.15 | Sargun | Haha |
| 07:10.17 | _tyler_ | She goes to the park, goes shopping |
| 07:10.20 | _tyler_ | She has a ball |
| 07:10.30 | JoshH | well, she's lucky then |
| 07:10.32 | _tyler_ | While I pay the bills she is very adept at aggregating |
| 07:10.34 | _tyler_ | Very |
| 07:10.44 | levi | Man, I wish my wife had that much fun. |
| 07:10.50 | JoshH | me too |
| 07:10.55 | _tyler_ | You need to talk to her |
| 07:11.01 | JoshH | mine plays on the internet all day, but she gets bored with it |
| 07:11.04 | _tyler_ | Cause she lumps herself in with 'the stay at home moms' |
| 07:11.19 | levi | We've got two young kids, and I've had to watch them at home all day a few times, and it's *not* fun. :) |
| 07:11.42 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=lakshmi@sjs-130-65-242-110.sjsu.edu) |
| 07:11.53 | JoshH | it's fun to play with them, but they only want to play for about 30 minutes, then they cry for food, or need a change, or are tired and fussy, etc |
| 07:11.54 | levi | Although those times have usually been when a significant portion of the household has been sick. :) |
| 07:12.07 | _tyler_ | Ouch :( |
| 07:12.14 | _tyler_ | Well my child is well tempered and extremely cute |
| 07:12.17 | _tyler_ | So I can deal |
| 07:12.29 | _tyler_ | Plus, it helps having a cute kid, cause people are willing ot hold/take care of her |
| 07:12.29 | levi | I had to take care of the wife and kids when my wife had her tonsils out, and the kids were both teething. |
| 07:12.31 | Sargun | for now. |
| 07:12.32 | JoshH | mine is cute, but definitely has a stubborn, demanding personality |
| 07:12.36 | _tyler_ | Hah |
| 07:12.56 | levi | My kids are adorable too (whose aren't, really? :) ) but they're pretty demanding. |
| 07:12.58 | _tyler_ | levi, oh man, that's horrible. |
| 07:13.18 | _tyler_ | levi, Funny you should say that. I am a hard hard critic of kids. |
| 07:13.26 | _tyler_ | I think all kids are cute, but not newborns |
| 07:13.47 | levi | So she was in horrible pain, I was constantly getting her more ice chips and cold packs, and the kids were not impossible, but pretty difficult. |
| 07:13.59 | levi | For about a week. |
| 07:14.09 | _tyler_ | In fact, if you go back and watch the pregnancy tapes, aside from how much the scene looked like a movie was being filmed with a full cast on site, you'll notice that all I could muster up at the time of her birth was "Oh man is she Asian" |
| 07:14.14 | _tyler_ | Cause I was having a hard time with how ugly she was |
| 07:14.39 | JoshH | ya, when they are gray and slimy it seems weird |
| 07:14.43 | _tyler_ | Totally |
| 07:14.47 | _tyler_ | I was like, oh crap |
| 07:14.51 | _tyler_ | I got the ugly one |
| 07:14.53 | levi | Heh. I think mine were pretty cute newborns once the slime was wiped off. |
| 07:15.02 | _tyler_ | It took me a few days |
| 07:15.09 | _tyler_ | But she turned out almost perfect |
| 07:15.22 | JoshH | now i'm just worried about when she becomes a teenager |
| 07:15.24 | levi | My daughter was born on Easter and got a cute bunny hat from the hospital staff. :) |
| 07:15.28 | _tyler_ | Niiiiice |
| 07:15.37 | JoshH | they say having a hot daughter cuts 10 years off your life |
| 07:15.38 | _tyler_ | JoshH, how old? |
| 07:15.45 | JoshH | 10 months right now |
| 07:15.49 | _tyler_ | I plan on locking mine in her dungeon |
| 07:15.50 | Sargun | JoshH, that's probably true. |
| 07:15.51 | Sargun | or more. |
| 07:15.54 | levi | My son was nearly born in the van on the way to the hospital. |
| 07:15.58 | _tyler_ | Wow |
| 07:16.12 | Sargun | JoshH, I would go with buying her a custom cell phone that you can SSH into |
| 07:16.19 | _tyler_ | Hahah |
| 07:16.23 | JoshH | no cell phone at all |
| 07:16.23 | Sargun | with Camera, microphone, GPS |
| 07:16.26 | Sargun | why not? |
| 07:16.30 | JoshH | i detest teens with cell phones |
| 07:16.33 | Sargun | how else will you monitor her? |
| 07:16.41 | _tyler_ | I plan dropping certain data from my daughters personal conversations over dinner |
| 07:16.46 | _tyler_ | "So, uh, how's ricky doing?" |
| 07:16.48 | JoshH | it's one thing to use a cell phone to check in, but another to be texting all day during school |
| 07:16.49 | Sargun | JoshH, Let me guess you dislike teens with Smart phones even more? |
| 07:16.54 | _tyler_ | "Uh, dad, how do you know about ricky?" |
| 07:16.54 | Sargun | _tyler_, that would be great. |
| 07:17.00 | levi | My wife woke up having serious contractions, her water broke, we drove about 25 minutes to the hospital, and as soon as she arrived they tore off her clothes and she delivered the baby. |
| 07:17.05 | _tyler_ | "DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING LITTLE GIRL!!!" |
| 07:17.26 | _tyler_ | She'll be so parenoid |
| 07:17.29 | Sargun | I think _tyler_ was a teenager in the 80s |
| 07:17.31 | Sargun | or 70s |
| 07:17.38 | _tyler_ | She wont be able to read a book without wondering if I can read it too |
| 07:17.38 | Sargun | when "ricky" was actually an attractive name. |
| 07:17.39 | JoshH | mine's water broke right as i was picking her up from work one day, 3 weeks before the due date |
| 07:17.43 | _tyler_ | From fourty miles away |
| 07:17.51 | JoshH | so we went to the hospital that night, and the baby was born at 8 the next morning |
| 07:18.03 | _tyler_ | Haha, born in 86. |
| 07:18.04 | JoshH | it was a very loooong night |
| 07:18.06 | levi | Yeah, both of ours were early. |
| 07:18.16 | _tyler_ | So not quite. |
| 07:18.19 | JoshH | and the next night, with the baby crying nonstop all night, was even longer |
| 07:18.29 | _tyler_ | Mine was premature. |
| 07:18.30 | Sargun | _tyler_, wow, you're young. |
| 07:18.36 | _tyler_ | So small she didn't even wanna wake to eat |
| 07:18.37 | levi | You didn't have the nursery take the baby? :) |
| 07:18.39 | JoshH | i eventually had to give in and accept the nurses offer to take her to the nursery for a couple hours |
| 07:18.45 | JoshH | because i was delirious from lack of sleep |
| 07:18.51 | _tyler_ | I worked graves at the time |
| 07:18.59 | _tyler_ | And even went in to work the day she was born :( |
| 07:19.08 | JoshH | then for 3 weeks, i never got more than an hour or two straight of sleep at night |
| 07:19.10 | JoshH | man, that sucked |
| 07:19.10 | _tyler_ | But it was sorta boring anyways cause all she did was sleep. |
| 07:19.14 | Sargun | _tyler_, where do you work |
| 07:19.17 | levi | _tyler_: We had a really hard time getting our daughter to eat, too, though she wasn't technically premature. |
| 07:19.28 | _tyler_ | Well at the time I was working at McKay Dee hospital |
| 07:19.37 | _tyler_ | But now I am back in IT |
| 07:19.44 | Sargun | As what? |
| 07:19.46 | Sargun | Does anyone here have a child old enough to be a liability? |
| 07:19.52 | _tyler_ | Hospital or IT? |
| 07:19.55 | Sargun | both. |
| 07:20.00 | _tyler_ | I was housekeeping beleive it or not |
| 07:20.00 | Sargun | Actually, children become liabilities the second they pop out |
| 07:20.03 | _tyler_ | For the hospital |
| 07:20.08 | _tyler_ | now I'm an IT Director |
| 07:20.12 | Sargun | That must have been.. interesting. |
| 07:20.17 | _tyler_ | It wasn't bad at all. |
| 07:20.21 | _tyler_ | I worked in the kitchen |
| 07:20.29 | levi | Children are assets with high maintenance costs. :) |
| 07:20.31 | _tyler_ | Two hours of work, 6 hours of movies, 8 hours of pay. |
| 07:20.31 | Sargun | why did you do it |
| 07:20.36 | _tyler_ | Needed money. |
| 07:20.51 | _tyler_ | I got really scared about things, especially the financials, when I realized that my daughter was almost here. |
| 07:21.07 | _tyler_ | I guess I didn't need it, per se, but I am glad I had it handy anyways. |
| 07:21.38 | JoshH | honestly i got lucky and we got a gigantic pile of clothes at my wife's baby shower, and we are just now needing to buy new clothes and stuff |
| 07:21.44 | _tyler_ | Niiice |
| 07:21.45 | JoshH | i think we have enough blankets and toys to last her entire life |
| 07:21.57 | levi | Heh. |
| 07:22.03 | JoshH | she doesn't like real toys anyway, she only wants to play with random household objects |
| 07:22.18 | Sargun | JoshH, give her daddy's phone |
| 07:22.19 | JoshH | nothing is more fascinating to her than a remote control |
| 07:22.36 | levi | Before we had kids, my wife was planning to be all practical and pinch the purse when it came to buying clothes for them and stuff. |
| 07:22.44 | levi | Boy, did that idea ever change! |
| 07:24.02 | Sargun | levi, but you're a rich man! :-P |
| 07:24.02 | levi | There's something about kids and remote controls and phones. I guess they're fascinated with them because they're the toys *we* play with all the time. :) |
| 07:24.12 | JoshH | whenever the baby is in my office now, she always makes a beeline for the router and switch and starts pulling on cables |
| 07:24.33 | lakshmi | aww thats cute |
| 07:24.34 | levi | Sargun: Not rich enough to pay for my kids' wardrobes and the home improvement projects I want to do. :P |
| 07:24.48 | levi | JoshH: Oooh, blinky lights! |
| 07:25.05 | levi | JoshH: My 9-month son does that, too. |
| 07:25.28 | JoshH | maybe she will turn out to be a network admin, who knows |
| 07:26.06 | lakshmi | thatd be cute |
| 07:26.44 | lakshmi | take a couple pics of her playing with routers now and when she's older and into networks show em to her |
| 07:27.19 | Sargun | lakshmi, uhm.... |
| 07:27.28 | Sargun | Hm.. |
| 07:27.48 | Sargun | LINX has an all female NE/NO staff. |
| 07:28.21 | JoshH | what is that |
| 07:28.33 | JoshH | i should get hired as the only guy there |
| 07:28.44 | Sargun | haha. |
| 07:28.52 | Sargun | LINX = London Internet exchange |
| 07:28.58 | Sargun | they have a freaking hot staff. |
| 07:29.35 | Sargun | Its like 8 girls (in their late 20s, early 30s) |
| 07:29.38 | Sargun | they are all british. |
| 07:29.57 | Sargun | their support staff, and the CTO and stuff were all there. |
| 07:30.05 | Sargun | they all look, and act like the girls' bouncers. |
| 07:30.40 | JoshH | alright, time to stumble to bed |
| 07:30.56 | JoshH | waves goodnight |
| 07:31.14 | lakshmi | Sargun any reason you know so much about linx staff? :P |
| 07:31.18 | lakshmi | night JoshH |
| 07:32.21 | Sargun | lakshmi, I hung out with them at the NOG. |
| 08:22.32 | levi | Time for sleep. G'night. |
| 08:29.55 | Supaplex | http://www.joystiq.com/2008/09/09/terrible-news-gordon-freeman-spotted-near-large-hadron-collider/ |
| 08:55.54 | Tene | Apparently importing huge numbers of gpg keys has some unfortunate side-effects. |
| 08:57.14 | Supaplex | like? |
| 08:57.48 | Tene | I just tried to search for my key, and gpg ran for 3 hours without finding it. |
| 08:57.58 | Supaplex | ouch |
| 08:58.14 | Tene | ~/.gnupg is 250M |
| 08:58.14 | ibot | okay, Tene |
| 08:58.21 | Tene | ibot: forget ~/.gnupg |
| 08:58.21 | ibot | i didn't have anything called '~/.gnupg' to forget, Tene |
| 08:58.58 | Supaplex | ibot: forget /.gnupg |
| 08:58.58 | ibot | Supaplex: i forgot /.gnupg |
| 08:59.21 | Tene | A co-worker was curious to see a graph of his web of trust, so I started importing all the keys mentioned in --list-sig of his key, and followed the links a couple of levels out. |
| 08:59.45 | Supaplex | heh. fun |
| 09:00.07 | Tene | I made a pretty graph, but now I can't even look up my key. |
| 09:16.48 | Tene | Just ran strace -c on it for a while. 50% of the time is spent in times and getrusage |
| 09:16.58 | Tene | Why is it doing that? That's weird. |
| 09:17.14 | Tene | The other 50% is in read, which is understandable. |
| 09:17.28 | Tene | If it's reading that much, though, why is it taking hours ot go through 250M of keys? |
| 09:34.36 | Tene | Looks like I got it fixed mostly. |
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| 15:43.08 | ^Migs^ | http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080916/wr_nm/internet_book_life_dc |
| 15:43.33 | goozbach | I think I am tired |
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| 15:55.43 | maquis | goozbach: you're not sure, though? |
| 15:56.05 | goozbach | I'm pretty sure that this is what tired feels like |
| 15:57.04 | jsmith | goozbach: Tired, eh? I haven't felt that way in at least ten minutes |
| 16:01.29 | eightyeight | had 15 hours of sheetrock work yesterday. tired is a close friend today |
| 16:02.15 | levi | Good morning. |
| 16:02.46 | eggyknap | Is it? |
| 16:04.02 | high_roller | eightyeight: sheetrocking too huh? |
| 16:05.05 | eightyeight | high_roller: yeah. a wood shop for my dad. we finished... at 20:30 |
| 16:06.35 | tensai | has been late night canning fruits and veggies |
| 16:09.04 | eggyknap | too. We're stuck in pear mode right now. |
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| 16:10.11 | maquis | has been working a lot |
| 16:10.43 | fozzmoo | cheers for maquis |
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| 16:16.36 | levi | Hmm, it is interesting to hear noise about the possibility of other commercial operating systems again. |
| 16:16.49 | maquis | ? |
| 16:17.16 | elg | the dell thing? |
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| 16:19.24 | levi | I saw something about HP possibly making an OS. |
| 16:19.44 | levi | Though, with all the layoffs in the works there, I don't imagine it's really likely. |
| 16:19.52 | elg | oh, i guess it was hp not dell |
| 16:20.11 | harleypig | I wish I had the night before for the way I feel this morning. |
| 16:20.12 | levi | I'm tired. :/ |
| 16:20.48 | levi | Grrr, the interrupt propagation bit *is* set by default. So why am I not getting interrupts?! |
| 16:22.21 | Sargun | -excuse |
| 16:22.29 | Sargun | brac? |
| 16:22.37 | elg | brac is exercising his excuses |
| 16:23.25 | eightyeight | levi: i saw that rumour. any chances it will be linux based, or something else entirely? |
| 16:23.31 | eightyeight | re: the hp os |
| 16:24.13 | elg | well they're obviously not going to just write one from scratch in a couple of weeks |
| 16:24.20 | elg | or even a couple of months/years |
| 16:25.31 | eightyeight | did they mention a potential release date? |
| 16:25.41 | levi | eightyeight: I hope it's not. |
| 16:25.47 | fozzmoo | eightyeight: The article on Engadget said definitely Linux-based. |
| 16:26.02 | levi | There are enough Linux-based OSes out there already. :/ |
| 16:26.19 | fozzmoo | I thought HP was fully embracing SUSE. Weird. |
| 16:26.23 | elg | what i've read said linux-based too. but it sounded definitely like a rumor |
| 16:27.25 | eightyeight | yeah. i didn't see any press release, just he-said, she-said. i hope not linux-based either. i would like to see something different, worth studying |
| 16:27.36 | eightyeight | haiku-os looks promising |
| 16:28.18 | levi | Yeah, it would be interesting to see someone run with BeOS. |
| 16:29.21 | levi | There are definitely some advantages to platform standardization, but there are plenty of downsides as well. |
| 16:29.28 | elg | doing a new os from scratch isn't the sort of thing you do because you want to shave a few bucks off of laptops. |
| 16:29.39 | fozzmoo | From a business standpoint, it doesn't make sense for HP to start from scratch if it doesn't have to. |
| 16:29.44 | elg | buying one out that's close, basing it on free software, maybe |
| 16:29.48 | eightyeight | fozzmoo: agreed |
| 16:29.50 | fozzmoo | Especially if they're planning on running on x86 software. |
| 16:29.56 | fozzmoo | s/software/hardware/ |
| 16:30.13 | elg | designing one from scratch because you believe your new os is totally awesome and paradigm-changing or whatever is another thing |
| 16:30.44 | fozzmoo | I think we'd have heard that HP has some genius OS designer on board if that were the case. |
| 16:32.07 | eightyeight | maybe opening HP/UX to compete with opensolaris? |
| 16:32.21 | harleypig | http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/09/16/self-sustainable-chair-by-jooyoun-paek/ |
| 16:33.34 | harleypig | That's a big wtf! |
| 16:33.47 | mrpull | I was thinking HP was making a new operating environment that sat on top of windows. |
| 16:34.12 | mrpull | and people criticized them for now putting in on top of linux. |
| 16:34.15 | harleypig | wouldn't that be putting new wine in an old garbage can? |
| 16:34.46 | mrpull | not if you want the customers to be able to use all their legacy apps |
| 16:35.23 | fozzmoo | From Engadget: That OS, as you might have guessed, would be based on Linux, although BusinessWeek's sources say it "would be simpler and easier for mainstream users. |
| 16:35.38 | fozzmoo | And the article they're referring to: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_38/b4100084242512.htm?campaign_id=rss_tech |
| 16:35.42 | mrpull | ok. I'm talking about something different. |
| 16:36.28 | harleypig | mrpull: that doesn't change the fact it's new wine in an old garbage can. |
| 16:36.47 | fozzmoo | I love this: "We had to shift our marketing this year from 'Buy the new version of QuickBooks because it's Vista-compatible,' which did nothing for us," says Intuit CEO Brad Smith. "It wasn't working for Microsoft, and it wasn't working for us." |
| 16:36.55 | mrpull | the people aren't seeking wine, they want to keep using the same old trash :) |
| 16:37.04 | mrpull | so that garbage can works quite nicely :) |
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| 16:37.29 | harleypig | :D |
| 16:37.42 | fozzmoo | It's interesting that netbook hardware is a driving factor. |
| 16:39.45 | mrpull | http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/touchsmart/#/Main/ is the HP product I was talking about that uses vista under an HP UI. |
| 16:39.50 | goozbach | walking around with something which looks like a full diaper: priceless |
| 16:41.05 | maquis | goozbach: ? |
| 16:41.07 | tensai | goozbach: make an airtight seal from it to your butt and you could use it like a diaper |
| 16:41.15 | tensai | maquis: harleypig's url |
| 16:41.52 | maquis | ah |
| 16:42.56 | harleypig | goozbach: that was my thought as well. |
| 16:43.12 | harleypig | but I wasn't sure if that's cause I spent most of the last two days worshiping at the porcelain shrine. |
| 16:43.32 | high_roller | eightyeight: we are remodeling our house, so not just straight sheetrocking we have to retrofit a lot of pieces |
| 16:44.44 | harleypig | high_roller: just set your kids free with some sledgehammers ... |
| 16:46.20 | high_roller | harleypig: problem is we are pulling down paneling, and behind that is lathe and plaster. Cause we are on a tight budget I want to save as much of the plaster as possible |
| 16:47.06 | harleypig | high_roller: It's cool ... I was just being a smart aleck. |
| 16:47.43 | harleypig | My kids would take out a couple of 2x4 supports, then start experimenting on each other ... not something I'd really reccomend. :> |
| 16:50.09 | high_roller | harleypig: Another problem is that knocking down walls is work, and kids seem to be allergic to work |
| 16:50.17 | high_roller | i.e. they'd lose interest pretty soon |
| 16:53.49 | harleypig | right ... but destroying things is fun ... |
| 16:54.09 | levi | Must be an old house. |
| 16:54.41 | levi | There's a beautiful old home for sale in Lehi that I'd love to buy and fix up, if I had the time and money to do so. |
| 16:55.33 | maquis | high_roller: i dunno... from what i've heard, boys don't seem to mind knocking down walls |
| 16:55.38 | maquis | building them back up is a different story |
| 16:55.57 | levi | maquis: Making the first few holes is fun. |
| 16:56.03 | levi | After that, it's work. |
| 16:56.05 | tensai | levi: there's a great old school here that I'd love to fix up and turn into a home |
| 16:56.29 | high_roller | this is our first older home renovation, so far its been interesting |
| 16:56.38 | levi | tensai: There were some church members in San Diego that bought a historic chapel that the church was getting rid of and turned it into a home for their two gigantic families. |
| 16:56.41 | harleypig | anyone know how to get html mail working in evolution? |
| 16:56.48 | high_roller | luckily a lot of work was already done by the previous owners, and they had contractors doing the work |
| 16:56.59 | tensai | harleypig: funny, I've been trying to get it to stop working |
| 16:57.22 | tensai | harleypig: sending or receiving? |
| 16:57.36 | harleypig | tensai: I don't want to, but I've got to test a program that's sending out some stats internally and it *has* to use html |
| 16:57.40 | harleypig | to make it look pretty *ugh* |
| 16:57.42 | levi | high_roller: What style of house is it? |
| 16:57.58 | harleypig | tensai: receiving |
| 16:58.11 | high_roller | levi: its a ~1914 bungalow |
| 16:58.33 | harleypig | I thought I had it turned on ... |
| 16:58.47 | tensai | harleypig: have you looked in Preferences -> Mail Preferences -> HTML Mail? |
| 16:58.51 | harleypig | I just realized ... it *is* on because I'm not seeing the mark up ... but I'm not seeing the html correctly either. |
| 16:59.08 | harleypig | tensai: I have, but I'll double check. |
| 16:59.25 | levi | high_roller: What kind of changes are you making? |
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| 17:00.29 | high_roller | levi: just internal cosmetic changes, what makes me sad is that when we pulled off the paneling you can see where they pulled down the original craftsman style moulding |
| 17:00.38 | harleypig | tensai: It's Edit | Preferences | Mail Preferences | HTML Messages | Plain Text Mode |
| 17:00.54 | harleypig | Show HTML if present is selected. |
| 17:00.55 | levi | high_roller: That's a bummer. Are you going to try to replace it? |
| 17:00.59 | high_roller | we are going to recreate the moulding based on what we found around one door in a closet |
| 17:01.05 | levi | Nice. |
| 17:01.27 | high_roller | I'm going to take a camera over this evening to take some before shots |
| 17:02.07 | harleypig | hmmm ... maybe the format of the email is incorrect |
| 17:02.32 | levi | We ended up buying a pretty generic tract house built in 2000, since we were in a hurry and the price was right, and I don't have much time these days for remodeling work. But I dream of buying an old home with some character and making it shine. :) |
| 17:03.10 | harleypig | bag it ... I'll just install thunderbird. |
| 17:03.20 | high_roller | levi: it seems here in Price, that new homes are outragously expensive for what they are |
| 17:03.36 | levi | The sad thing, to me, is that a lot of really cool homes are run down now and their neighborhoods have become poor. |
| 17:03.39 | harleypig | high_roller: It's all the urbanites bailing from the big cities. |
| 17:03.57 | high_roller | this home was ~80,000 cheaper than a comparable new home |
| 17:04.41 | tensai | high_roller: Price, eh? that's where I grew up |
| 17:04.56 | high_roller | tensai: did you graduate from carbon high? |
| 17:05.13 | tensai | high_roller: nah. moved to oregon after 7th grade. |
| 17:12.23 | Sargun_Screen | tensai: in the early 80s? |
| 17:12.51 | tensai | Sargun_Screen: 1990 |
| 17:13.12 | Sargun_Screen | ah |
| 17:14.53 | Sargun_Screen | levi: you have your chip raising interrupts yet? |
| 17:18.39 | harleypig | well, that's it then ... evolution doesn't display html correctly ... |
| 17:18.48 | harleypig | thunderbird display the email just fine. |
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| 17:55.48 | goozbach | what's the debian way of doing "show me all packages which are installed"? |
| 17:56.07 | goozbach | NM dpkg -l |
| 17:57.12 | goozbach | what I want to do is the debian equivilent to rpmverify -a |
| 17:59.46 | goozbach | nm I found what I was looking for: dpkg-query -S '/etc/cron.d/*' |
| 18:00.01 | goozbach | show me all packages which contain a file matching <pattern> |
| 18:00.21 | harleypig | arghh!!! Do *NOT* put '?' in your sql statement when using ? as a placeholder. |
| 18:00.57 | maquis | you mean don't use the single-quotes around the ? |
| 18:01.00 | maquis | or don't use ? at all? |
| 18:01.24 | harleypig | don't use the single quotes. |
| 18:01.29 | maquis | my assumption is that the ? without the single-quotes would just cause it to error |
| 18:01.34 | maquis | which would be really easy to find/fix |
| 18:01.40 | harleypig | DBI just says 'too many bind variables' |
| 18:02.04 | harleypig | no, '?' means don't use ? as a placeholder, treat it literally. |
| 18:02.43 | harleypig | So, this query "select t.name from users u left join team t on u.team = t.id where username = '?' doesn't work. |
| 18:02.59 | harleypig | pass one variable and it's too many variables ... drove me nuts. |
| 18:03.48 | harleypig | sorry ... I'm talking the perl dbi here. |
| 18:04.32 | elg | ~drive harleypig nuts |
| 18:04.32 | ibot | ACTION jumps behind the wheel of a specially designed limo & chauffeurs harleypig nuts anywhere he/she needs to go, while harleypig nuts sits in the back playing bzflag |
| 18:05.02 | harleypig | oh dear ... that's ... a very funny image |
| 18:12.39 | maquis | looks away quickly |
| 18:12.51 | elg | too late maquis |
| 18:12.55 | maquis | i noticed |
| 18:12.57 | Sargun_Screen | hahha |
| 18:13.01 | elg | ibot has ruined you |
| 18:13.46 | maquis | code comments can be scary |
| 18:14.14 | Sargun_Screen | therefore you shouldn't comment your code |
| 18:15.31 | unum | agrees |
| 18:15.50 | elg | degrees |
| 18:18.09 | eightyeight | agrees |
| 18:19.13 | unum | do you agree with the degree or the former agree |
| 18:19.53 | eightyeight | i agree on the initial agreement |
| 18:22.13 | levi | Sargun_Screen: No, no interrupts yet, and I can't figure out why. |
| 18:22.51 | eggyknap | levi: what's this chip do? |
| 18:23.05 | *** part/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 18:23.15 | eightyeight | occassional comments can be helpful, but overall they add uneeded noise for well-written code |
| 18:23.25 | levi | eggyknap: It's got an ethernet mac, among other things, that I'm trying to get to work now. |
| 18:24.23 | levi | eggyknap: The DMA engine that feeds the mac is supposed to interrupt when it's finished. |
| 18:25.03 | Sargun_Screen | are you sure you're doing dma corectly? |
| 18:25.22 | levi | It's not a typical ethernet chip because it's part of a bizarre SOC, so it's DMAing from its own internal memory. |
| 18:25.36 | Sargun_Screen | ah, neat |
| 18:25.40 | levi | Sargun_Screen: Yes, packets are going out on the wire. |
| 18:25.51 | Sargun_Screen | so you have an soc with ethernet offload? |
| 18:27.26 | levi | I wouldn't really call it that. It's a SOC with a mac in it, but the whole SOC is set up to be a slave device to another CPU. |
| 18:28.43 | levi | Most of the work the mac is doing will be controlled by the SOC, but I'll need the mac to be usable from the master CPU as well for a few protocols. |
| 18:29.49 | levi | Currently the master CPU has its own mac, but in real products it typically won't. |
| 18:30.08 | harleypig | I try to write comments that will get blogged or twitted sometime in the future. |
| 18:33.11 | Sargun_Screen | ah, this is for your whole audio over ethernet stuff? |
| 18:33.29 | levi | Yes. |
| 18:35.03 | Sargun_Screen | and this soc will go on the slave board that allows you to put audio onto the network |
| 18:35.45 | Sargun_Screen | I'm guessing? |
| 18:40.28 | elg | anyone know how to make a dock-clickable app open in a terminal window, e.g. orpie? |
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| 19:16.46 | Sargun_Screen | elg: xterm -e orpie |
| 19:16.56 | elg | osx, sory |
| 19:22.41 | eightyeight | http://mersenne.org - 45th and 46th known mersenne primes found |
| 19:24.58 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@208.53.57.89) |
| 19:28.02 | bbeattie | Is it possible to get DD 5.1 audio out of an ati's hdmi port? I can only get stereo out of the HDMI port on a 3450 (Even if a track is DD 5.1 or TrueHD 7.1 I only get stereo. On my nvidia cards that use the motherboard jumper I can get DD 5.1 out hdmi audio, and hooking the ps3 up to the receiver I get 7.1 TrueHD audio so it's not my receiver. |
| 19:30.15 | Sargun_Screen | Is it possible to get a better sound card? |
| 19:30.49 | bbeattie | eh, wrong channel, that was ment for #ati |
| 19:31.08 | bbeattie | no sound cards will do hdmi video and audio of course... |
| 19:31.41 | bbeattie | you have to send the audio out the video card, either by passthrough or onboard. ATI cards have an audio chip on them specifically for sending audio out hdmi |
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| 19:36.35 | fozzmoo | ~lart HDMI |
| 19:36.35 | ibot | nukes HDMI with a single large nuke |
| 19:36.39 | fozzmoo | cheers |
| 19:41.08 | levi | HDMI would be great if it wasn't for HDCP. |
| 19:41.26 | Sargun | levi, so, was I right? |
| 19:41.33 | levi | Sargun: About what? |
| 19:41.44 | Sargun | about what your SoC is for? |
| 19:41.55 | levi | Oh, yeah. |
| 19:42.03 | Sargun | Ah, neat. |
| 19:42.15 | Sargun | I would assume you guys would use ASICs with onboard MACs/PHYs |
| 19:42.32 | Sargun | ASICs are used far more often in the audio industry. |
| 19:42.41 | levi | We didn't design this chip. |
| 19:42.45 | Sargun | Additionally $/Unit would be cheaper. |
| 19:42.57 | Sargun | but development cost would be high. |
| 19:43.05 | levi | It's an eASIC, not an ASIC. |
| 19:43.27 | levi | Somewhere between an ASIC and FPGA. |
| 19:44.34 | levi | It's clear to me now that the chip is broken with regard to its flexbus interface. Grr. |
| 19:45.16 | levi | Someone had the bright idea to tie the Flexbus interrupt line to the PCI interrupt line, even though you can't access the PCI bus from Flexbus. |
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| 20:02.48 | tristanbob_ | http://www.untangle.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=434&Itemid=1527 |
| 20:03.28 | tristanbob_ | this version of Untangle uses a virtual machine on your windows desktop to perform ARP-spoofing so that it can control traffic going to and from the real gateway. |
| 20:09.10 | elg | sounds evil |
| 20:11.15 | harleypig | If you want someone to double check something, you want them to 'vet' it, right? How is that supposed to be spelled? |
| 20:12.24 | levi | Yes. |
| 20:12.56 | eggyknap | http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vet |
| 20:13.05 | harleypig | levi: I'm not looking for a demonstration of enigmatic! :] |
| 20:13.33 | harleypig | eggyknap: thx |
| 20:13.41 | eggyknap | yw |
| 20:13.55 | eggyknap | wonders if infobot has a dictionary.com plugin |
| 20:14.01 | levi | I misread what you said, I thought you were asking if 'vet' was correct. |
| 20:15.12 | harleypig | levi: s'cool |
| 20:15.19 | harleypig | ~define vet |
| 20:15.20 | ibot | Use ~dict for definitions. |
| 20:15.25 | harleypig | ~dict vet |
| 20:15.59 | harleypig | ~dict 3 vet |
| 20:16.08 | harleypig | ~dict 4 vet |
| 20:16.16 | harleypig | ~dict * vet |
| 20:16.23 | harleypig | feh |
| 20:16.48 | levi | http://www.democraticstuff.com/PhotoDetails.asp?ShowDESC=N&ProductCode=BT23707 |
| 20:17.16 | harleypig | wth is a thereminist? |
| 20:17.20 | harleypig | ~dict thereminist |
| 20:17.31 | levi | One who plays a theremin. |
| 20:17.59 | levi | It's an electronic instrument that plays different frequencies based on where your hand is in relation to it. |
| 20:18.13 | harleypig | ooooookaaaay |
| 20:18.30 | elg | theremins are way cool |
| 20:18.45 | levi | Indeed they are! |
| 20:19.59 | elg | http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nJYho56INKU |
| 20:20.06 | harleypig | omg ... http://www.democraticstuff.com/Yes-We-Can-Big-O-Barack-Obama-Button-p/bt29440.htm |
| 20:20.44 | unum | that makes me think oprah |
| 20:20.54 | elg | http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4TgYkqdi8 |
| 20:21.11 | levi | Maybe it's the Obama button for Oprah fans. |
| 20:21.25 | levi | Ugh! |
| 20:21.41 | levi | Holy crap, I went to Oprah's site and found a picture of a 140 lb tumor! |
| 20:22.18 | harleypig | unum: The Big O is a euphemism for orgasm |
| 20:24.20 | levi | The Oprah O is thinner at the top and bottom, but it does look pretty close if you don't look at them side by side. |
| 20:25.22 | Sargun | harleypig, you have a dirty mind. |
| 20:25.31 | Sargun | harleypig, Overstock.com, not Orgasm |
| 20:25.32 | Sargun | :-P |
| 20:26.38 | harleypig | Sargun: well, yeah |
| 20:26.41 | harleypig | But still ... |
| 20:26.47 | harleypig | I thought the Overstock O was orange. |
| 20:28.15 | harleypig | nah ... the overstock O is lopsided ... that one isn't, plus the color scheme doesn't match. |
| 20:28.24 | harleypig | I may be wrong, but it's certainly not overstock. |
| 20:31.50 | Sargun | Possibly. |
| 20:31.56 | Sargun | Overstock.com > Oprah. |
| 20:32.26 | unum | I'm not a big fan of the owner |
| 20:33.19 | harleypig | I've heard some fairly ... interesting things. |
| 20:33.25 | Tene | My old stalker messaged me on facebook a few days ago to tell me she's working at overstock.com. |
| 20:33.42 | Sargun | Tene, What did you do to get a stalker? |
| 20:33.50 | harleypig | Tene: do tell. 'old stalker'? you keep in touch with your stalker? |
| 20:34.16 | Sargun | Overstock.com has a lot of dirt in the closet, but who doesn't? |
| 20:34.27 | Tene | harleypig: she stalked me back in high school. She pops up on social networks every year or so to try to get back in touch with me. |
| 20:34.28 | unum | wants a stalker |
| 20:35.11 | unum | so I've decided all my issues with my machine freezing up are related to nfs |
| 20:35.14 | tensai | ~stalk unum |
| 20:35.15 | ibot | ACTION furtively infiltrates unum's shadows and when unum is turned away jumps out to take a picture with his camera phone! |
| 20:35.29 | unum | feels popular |
| 20:38.47 | harleypig | unum: wait until ibot shows up "by chance" on dates and starts telling your date your secrets. |
| 20:40.58 | harleypig | window split 2 |
| 20:41.01 | harleypig | err ... |
| 20:41.18 | harleypig | feh ... what was that command ... |
| 20:42.35 | harleypig | feh |
| 20:42.38 | harleypig | feh, I say |
| 20:43.20 | Tene | FEH |
| 20:43.39 | harleypig | ~acronym feh |
| 20:43.47 | harleypig | ibot needs an acronym plugin |
| 20:43.54 | harleypig | friggin' empty headed |
| 20:44.12 | harleypig | feelin' evil handed |
| 20:44.21 | harleypig | flyin' everso high |
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| 20:47.37 | levi | Ugh, this peach isn't very good. |
| 20:47.51 | harleypig | the peach ain't peachy, eh? |
| 20:47.53 | harleypig | ducks |
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| 21:06.53 | levi | http://www.dilbert.com/blog/entry/dilbert_survey_of_economists/?Page=2 |
| 21:09.53 | unum | the more I learn about his politics the less I like him |
| 21:10.04 | unum | this is the guy that thought bill gates would be the best president |
| 21:10.07 | harleypig | Who? Douglas Adams? |
| 21:10.17 | levi | Wrong Adams. |
| 21:10.17 | unum | scott adams |
| 21:10.21 | harleypig | err, yeah |
| 21:10.38 | harleypig | They have so much in common ... |
| 21:10.57 | harleypig | I mean besides, like, their names, I can't think of a nything ... |
| 21:10.59 | harleypig | but still. |
| 21:11.04 | unum | nerds think they are funny |
| 21:11.28 | harleypig | <huffy>I am a *GEEK*, thnkyvrymch</huffy> |
| 21:11.54 | unum | sorry I can never remember which ones which |
| 21:12.18 | harleypig | piffle |
| 21:16.08 | harleypig | It's easy ... nerds focus exclusively on a small subset of (usually useless) information |
| 21:16.39 | harleypig | geeks have a wide focus (so to speak) on (usually useless) information |
| 21:19.43 | unum | so you have "star wars nerds" and "linux geeks" |
| 21:20.07 | unum | of course I've met linux nerds.... |
| 21:20.24 | harleypig | right :] |
| 21:20.42 | unum | such and such distro has <package> version <number> where as <distro> has <package> <number> |
| 21:21.40 | harleypig | it has to be in context though ... it's possible (probably even) that a geek would know that information for a variety of reasons. Job, personal hobbies, etc. |
| 21:22.04 | harleypig | If that's *all* they knew, that would make them a nerd. :> |
| 21:22.20 | harleypig | err ... (probable even) |
| 21:23.01 | harleypig | Can ibot substitude n lines ago? |
| 21:23.08 | harleypig | s/d/t/ |
| 21:23.29 | mrpull | holy geeeze... my wife's cell phone bill is $332! |
| 21:23.32 | mrpull | not good. |
| 21:23.37 | harleypig | !? |
| 21:23.40 | harleypig | yowch |
| 21:23.41 | nick125 | mrpull: Wow. Who was she talking to?! |
| 21:23.54 | harleypig | Use an orange in a sock. |
| 21:24.22 | mrpull | looks like one of the sisters who isn't in the "fave 5" |
| 21:24.36 | nick125 | oouch. |
| 21:24.36 | mrpull | she surely isn't in among my real life fave 5 either |
| 21:25.21 | mrpull | dangit... I wonder if tmobile's website can export this to a CSV / XLS |
| 21:27.12 | unum | nfs was definetly the problem |
| 21:27.36 | harleypig | mrpull: I was able to do it when I had an account withthem. |
| 21:27.46 | harleypig | Unfortunately I have no rememberance of how I did it. |
| 21:28.58 | maquis | we had a 350$ cell phone bill... |
| 21:31.05 | maquis | unfortunately, it was due to work |
| 21:33.56 | levi | Did work pay for it? |
| 21:36.12 | mrpull | easy enough to download to csv. now the fun begins. |
| 21:38.39 | mrpull | three calls to 411... 6 bucks |
| 21:38.42 | mrpull | <groan> |
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| 21:41.50 | levi | Mmm, dark chocolate with chipotle chili. |
| 21:42.07 | harleypig | mrpull: $2/call? holy crap |
| 21:43.37 | mrpull | nah, only 1.40 per call, but had to pay $3.09 for air time for one of the calls |
| 21:43.59 | mrpull | grumbles further |
| 21:44.37 | levi | Isn't it *great* to share finances with someone? ;) |
| 21:45.13 | mrpull | it was more fun when she earned a hell of a lot more than I did |
| 21:45.30 | unum | will probably never experience that |
| 21:45.43 | unum | unless I marry a pharamisct... |
| 21:45.47 | mrpull | full time mom doesn't earn quite like her last job |
| 21:45.49 | levi | Heh. I never had that situation, though it was nice when my wife did make some money, even if it wasn't a lot. |
| 21:46.16 | mrpull | adjusting from DINK's to now was a big change |
| 21:46.43 | unum | mrpull: sounds like the wrong person quit her job |
| 21:46.59 | unum | :) |
| 21:47.17 | mrpull | not a chance. I couldn't be a full time homemaker :) |
| 21:47.47 | levi | I switched jobs and bought a house at about the same time. I make a lot more money now, but most of the extra money goes right into the extra mortgage. |
| 21:47.50 | mrpull | and these days I earn more than she was, but it still is only 3/4's of what we made combined |
| 21:48.12 | levi | But my wife feels like we're making a lot more money anyway... |
| 21:49.13 | harleypig | levi: cause she's spending more of it? |
| 21:49.15 | harleypig | :> |
| 21:49.49 | levi | harleypig: Well, she spends more as a result. She feels that way because she knows how big the salary increase was. |
| 21:50.37 | harleypig | s'cool ... I'm just a little bit negative when it comes to wives at the moment. |
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| 21:51.45 | levi | Yeah, understandable. |
| 22:08.18 | Sargun | levi, has your ethernet-audio stuff hit the market yet? |
| 22:14.28 | levi | Sargun: Nope. The standards aren't complete enough yet, but products are in development now. |
| 22:14.41 | levi | boggles: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1056575/Pictured-What-happened-worlds-smallest-man-met-woman-longest-legs.html |
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| 22:32.09 | Sargun | levi, o.O |
| 22:52.33 | harleypig | gives new meaning to the phrase "those legs go all the way up" |
| 22:52.48 | harleypig | The catwoman link was even freakier. |
| 22:52.59 | harleypig | like a train wreck ... you just can't look away |
| 23:00.12 | tensai | harleypig: why did you make me look at that?!? |
| 23:00.27 | harleypig | I just talked about it ... you're the one who clicked! :D |
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