| 00:00.09 | harleypig | oh wow ... 26 lines of code too .. |
| 00:02.36 | harleypig | you could probably shrink that first block down to print GraphViz::Regex->new( $params->( 're' ) )->as_png ... |
| 00:11.07 | harleypig | as long as we're talking perl ... does anyone know a way I can sort the same AoHs 3 different ways while only going through it once? |
| 00:12.06 | harleypig | I can do sort { $a->{ 'a' } <=> $b->{ 'a' } } @AoH , then sort { $a->{ 'b' } <=> $b->{ 'b' } } @AoH ... and so on ... |
| 00:12.24 | harleypig | but I'd rather avoid having to loop through the array multiple times. |
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| 01:19.24 | eightyeight | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM |
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| 02:29.30 | levi | Man, Vista in Virtual PC is excruciatingly slow. |
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| 03:03.58 | tensai | ~seen findlay |
| 03:04.24 | ibot | findlay <n=justin@park-6-149.hotspot.utah.edu> was last seen on IRC in channel #utah, 6h 3m 57s ago, saying: 'c++'s stream style syntax comes in handy sometimes, but when you need to do any kind of in the middle manipulation of the format it's almost painful to look at, and of course the c++ groupthink won't let you just use plain old format strings'. |
| 03:05.23 | levi | ~seen tensai |
| 03:05.24 | ibot | tensai is currently on #utos #utah. Has said a total of 2 messages. Is idling for 1m 26s, last said: '~seen findlay'. |
| 03:05.55 | tensai | levi: how's your daughter doing? |
| 03:06.14 | levi | tensai: She finally quit whining in bed and went to sleep. :) |
| 03:06.24 | levi | tensai: I have a son now too, BTW. |
| 03:06.44 | tensai | whoah. I must be slow on the uptake. |
| 03:06.45 | levi | They're both doing pretty good, though they like to try our patience. |
| 03:08.12 | fozzmoo | levi: That's what kids do. |
| 03:08.15 | levi | Huh. There's got to be a better way of checking the validity of a numeric string in C# than a regex. |
| 03:08.28 | fozzmoo | levi: I would hope so, also. |
| 03:08.58 | levi | Well, I'm just following this silly tutorial for my digital image processing & computer vision class. |
| 03:09.16 | levi | So I will do it his dumb way until I need to learn the real way. :) |
| 03:09.21 | fozzmoo | Maybe you'll find out there's a "better way" later in the tutorial. :) |
| 03:09.46 | tensai | the best way involves an xslt processor and a ream of xml |
| 03:10.05 | levi | I doubt it; the guy's not really a perfectionist programmer. All he cares about is whether the image manipulation stuff is correct and reasonably fast. |
| 03:11.27 | levi | Anyone know what putting an @ in front of a string literal means in C#? |
| 03:20.36 | levi | Uh. |
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| 03:21.10 | levi | Apparently I'm missing System.Text.RegularExpressions. WTF?! |
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| 03:25.44 | zzzirk_ | sounds like a personal problem |
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| 04:00.50 | levi | Well, hopefully reinstalling the .net libraries will fix that. |
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| 04:29.33 | bonez45 | help.. my primary email server.. was on a machine I recently had to shut down and move.. now, I am waiting on Comcast to transfer my signal over to a new location.. how could I set up email.. to back up.. so that if my primary machine / server fails, my email is still available? |
| 04:31.17 | Tene | One relevant item is that other email servers will keep the mail for you for a few days and keep trying to re-send it until your server comes back up |
| 04:31.33 | bonez45 | hmmm that's good.... |
| 04:31.45 | fozzmoo | Tene is correct. There's also the idea of secondary MX servers. |
| 04:32.11 | fozzmoo | It's a little too late now, but if you set up other servers as secondary MX for your domain, those servers will hold onto your mail until your primary mail server is back online. |
| 04:32.33 | bonez45 | let's say an office goes dark.. one has to shut down and move, or there's a major outage.. I guess it'd just be a matter of having a back up server elsewhere? question for me is how to get the primary and back up to update.. so that when one goes down, the other just keeps on serving |
| 04:32.55 | bonez45 | secondary MaileXchange, eh? secondary MX? |
| 04:33.01 | fozzmoo | Yeah. |
| 04:33.24 | fozzmoo | For example, type this at a command line: 'host -t mx google.com' |
| 04:33.38 | fozzmoo | Bad example, actually... |
| 04:33.53 | fozzmoo | Do 'host -t mx cnn.com' |
| 04:34.28 | fozzmoo | You should see they have four primary MX hosts (designated by the lowest weight - 10) and then two others weighted 30 and 40. |
| 04:34.47 | fozzmoo | If the hosts weighted 10 are unavailable, the higher-rated hosts will be used. |
| 04:34.51 | bonez45 | ok....the 10 and 30 and 40 are priority numbers, right? |
| 04:35.00 | bonez45 | I see....... |
| 04:35.30 | fozzmoo | right. |
| 04:36.55 | bonez45 | and the various hosts are in likely different locations... |
| 04:37.04 | fozzmoo | usually, yeah. |
| 04:37.48 | fozzmoo | For example, when Iodynamics was in full-swing, we had a few clients that ran mail servers on Linux servers at their office connected to the Net via DSL... |
| 04:37.59 | fozzmoo | But DSL being DSL, it was prone to go down from time to time. |
| 04:38.23 | fozzmoo | So, we set up one of our servers in colocation at XMission as a secondary MX host for those clients' domains. |
| 04:38.55 | fozzmoo | As a result, none of the people e-mailing our client were likely to get any kind of delivery failure messages. |
| 04:38.56 | bonez45 | I see... |
| 04:39.22 | bonez45 | I am a one man show... so mine is not as critical..but still .. I hate having my server down. |
| 04:39.32 | bonez45 | I'll have to set up a few different hosts.. |
| 04:40.11 | Tene | I don't remember what you need to do to configure an email server to act as a backup for another server, to redeliver once the primary is back up. |
| 04:40.51 | bonez45 | I'll keep digging around, to find the right answers |
| 04:41.21 | fozzmoo | With Sendmail, you just put the domain name(s) in the local-host-names file. |
| 04:41.37 | bonez45 | mine is postfix+exim4 |
| 04:42.33 | Tene | How does sendmail know to hold the email and redeliver it instead of trying local delivery? |
| 04:42.52 | fozzmoo | Wait. You're right, Tene. :) |
| 04:43.08 | Tene | I learned from the best. |
| 04:43.18 | fozzmoo | It's in /etc/mail/access |
| 04:43.28 | fozzmoo | You have to have a line like: To:domain.com RELAY |
| 04:43.31 | Tene | 'chelle noticed your nick hilighted and asked me to say hi to you. |
| 04:43.56 | fozzmoo | Tene: Tell 'chelle she rocks. |
| 04:44.02 | fozzmoo | (Because I said so.) |
| 04:44.37 | Tene | We're watching Dr. Horrible. |
| 04:44.42 | fozzmoo | :-) |
| 04:44.55 | fozzmoo | These aren't the hammer... |
| 04:45.31 | Tene | Go ahead, run away, say it was Horrible. |
| 04:45.55 | fozzmoo | I'm editing Howard Tayler's keynote from UTOSC. |
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| 05:09.30 | levi | I'm watching The Daily Show on hulu.com |
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| 05:40.46 | tensai | fozzmoo: are you looking for any help with the utosc editing? |
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| 06:18.13 | fozzmoo | tensai: Not yet. :) |
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| 07:15.40 | fozzmoo | http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=305420655186700 |
| 07:15.56 | fozzmoo | [Michelle's Boot Camps For Radicals] |
| 07:16.02 | fozzmoo | Scary, scary, scary stuff |
| 07:16.21 | Sargun | uhm |
| 07:24.52 | tensai | that's funny |
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| 14:14.35 | ^Migs^ | http://www.wegame.com/watch/Hax_A_Solution_2/ |
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| 15:01.17 | mrpull | wow. the chief engineer at vmware resigned. |
| 15:03.49 | ^Migs^ | wow. How does this affect me, though? |
| 15:04.11 | mrpull | his wife was the cofounder and she got the boot a couple months back |
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| 15:36.05 | Sargun | mrpull, A company like VMWare is weak with a "cheif engineer" |
| 15:39.00 | high_roller | maybe they see the writing on the wall |
| 15:39.05 | mrpull | Sargun: his title was actually chief scientist... and I think you are right |
| 15:39.49 | mrpull | the competition is catching up, but they do have a huge head start |
| 15:40.03 | mrpull | I wonder what that couple will do next |
| 15:40.09 | Sargun | mrpull, Uhm, VMWare has some stuff the competition will take years to get to |
| 15:40.17 | mrpull | even in this market, I'd expect they could come up with something cool |
| 15:40.20 | Sargun | Retire on in France? |
| 15:40.48 | mrpull | I think the competition is closing the gap faster than most expected |
| 15:41.09 | Sargun | mrpull, Nobody will have seamless VM replication/migration for a bit. |
| 15:41.25 | Sargun | a lot of the appliance technology VMWare has will take a while to figure out |
| 15:41.33 | Sargun | Additionally, VMWare has an awesome brand name. |
| 15:41.35 | mrpull | Microsoft is claiming live migration next month |
| 15:41.51 | Sargun | They're one of the few brand names taht I like. |
| 15:41.52 | mrpull | vmware's streaming appliances are friggin cool |
| 15:43.30 | Sargun | yeah. |
| 15:43.57 | Sargun | Everyone else doing virtualization is like hyndai doing muscle cars |
| 15:45.11 | mrpull | Hyundai is making quality cars though and they are taking share away from the US and Japanese automakers |
| 15:46.01 | mrpull | and just like you like vmware's brand, Honda does suffer from Hyundai's success... even if Honda is better |
| 15:47.04 | Sargun | but Hyundai will never replace honda |
| 15:48.16 | mrpull | I like vmware a lot. I hope they don't lose out to inferior products. |
| 15:49.14 | Sargun | I hated VMWare before they had competition though |
| 15:49.22 | Sargun | Their solution was slow |
| 15:49.25 | Sargun | broken in many ways |
| 15:49.34 | Sargun | and they refused to fix bugs. |
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| 16:05.45 | mrpull | Jayce^: what was that irc room that had live updates of apple events? |
| 16:07.58 | Jayce^ | oh yeah, they usually have a macrumors or similar, not seeig it yet |
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| 16:16.24 | Jayce^ | looks like macrumors live isn't doing there's this time |
| 16:17.37 | levi | Haha, this is excellent: http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1052 |
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| 16:28.38 | sjansen | levi: http://typicalprogrammer.com/?p=89 |
| 16:29.10 | levi | fozzmoo: The way you drink up anti-liberal paranoia makes me chuckle. |
| 16:30.29 | levi | fozzmoo: I'm sure you would sneer deriseively at an editorial that attacked Sarah Palin with an expose of her church's radical right-wing associations or something. |
| 16:31.11 | levi | sjansen: Interesting. |
| 16:31.19 | JoshH | levi, i read one of those on cnn last night |
| 16:31.52 | levi | JoshH: An anti-liberal paranoia piece or an anti-conservative paranoia piece? |
| 16:32.03 | JoshH | neither, just news :) |
| 16:32.11 | levi | Ahh. |
| 16:32.25 | JoshH | http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/08/palin.pastor/index.html |
| 16:32.29 | levi | Well, one would think that someone involved in the Linux community would be able to recognize FUD. |
| 16:32.50 | JoshH | to me it sounds like her church was wackier than obama's |
| 16:33.04 | sjansen | Not when it's FUD confirming one's own personal biases. |
| 16:33.16 | levi | I watched an NPR interview with Rev. Wright. It was pretty interesting. |
| 16:34.09 | JoshH | she apparently went with people who "spoke in tongues", and said that the iraq war was "a task from god" |
| 16:34.47 | levi | I heard stuff like that about the Iraq war in LDS churches, too. |
| 16:35.05 | JoshH | i thought the lds church avoided having a stance on it |
| 16:35.24 | JoshH | even though most of the members support it |
| 16:35.36 | levi | The church did avoid that, but when you've got a lay priesthood... |
| 16:37.07 | levi | And the speaking in tongues thing is pretty weird, but it's a traditional part of pentecostal churches and not terribly uncommon. |
| 16:37.34 | JoshH | i don't know anything about it, but it makes me think of scenes from the exorcist :P |
| 16:39.08 | sjansen | *shrug* One of the problems with the US today is lack of knowledge. The left and right wing know very little about each other. |
| 16:39.38 | levi | I only witnessed it once, while I was on my mission in San Diego. We ran into a woman who was a preacher at a pentacostal church, and she asked us if we believed in the gift of tongues, and gave us a little demonstration. |
| 16:39.50 | JoshH | but i think the religion of all politicians should either never be brought up, or scrutinized heavily. i was talking politics with a mormon grandma i know, and she said "you know, i don't know why everyone thinks romney's religion is a big deal, it shouldn't matter at all." then 2 minutes later, she said "i would never vote for obama, because he's a muslim" |
| 16:39.58 | levi | sjansen: Indeed, and the lack of knowledge is intentional. |
| 16:40.28 | JoshH | and if the "radical" trinity church is all over the news, the weirdos at palin's should be as well |
| 16:41.17 | sjansen | JoshH: Because of course you're completely fair in your choice of characterization of the "weirdos". |
| 16:41.24 | levi | JoshH: Well, she was a Mormon, so she knows it's know big deal. But she's fed a constant stream of media associating Muslims with terrorism, and a bunch of lie-filled emails slandering Obama as a terrorist Muslim. So... what would you expect? |
| 16:41.49 | levi | Certainly she's never met any Muslims, so how would she know what they're like? |
| 16:42.01 | JoshH | ya, i understand that |
| 16:42.24 | JoshH | my point is just that religion should truly not play a role in campaigning, or be evenly covered across the board |
| 16:42.37 | levi | People, in general, are ill-prepared to think critically about the information they are bombarded with. |
| 16:42.48 | JoshH | if we are going to hear a bunch of quotes from reverend wright, why not some gems from brigham young also? |
| 16:43.24 | sjansen | I don't see why religion should be ignored. I do think it's a problem when we let competitors define a religion. |
| 16:43.53 | levi | We'll hear everything that is politically 'safe' enough to mention. It's not about truth or fairness, it's about what you can get away with. |
| 16:44.14 | levi | Both parties are guilty of this; it's kind of a war of escalation. |
| 16:44.37 | sjansen | It's too much to fit in a 30 second sound bite, but it'd be great of Obama stood up and said "I'm not a Muslim, but here's what Muslims believe .... Is that so bad?" |
| 16:45.25 | levi | If you go to factcheck.org and politifact.com, you'll see a pretty damning analysis of the truthfulness of political ads and campaign statements. |
| 16:45.38 | unum | people are already upset that he "stands with the muslims" |
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| 16:46.12 | unum | ya I saw one of mccains last night and it was so full errors |
| 16:46.15 | bonez46 | help.. I have a domain for my home.. and then one also for my office.. |
| 16:46.55 | unum | don't you hat it when you look at code that's been in production for two weeks and think "there's no way that's ever been working" |
| 16:46.56 | bonez46 | I dont' really use the home domain, right now.. can I shut it off....and redirect the office domain so that it points to my home IP address? until Comcast gets both accounts set up on my cable? |
| 16:47.47 | unum | by domain do you mean like bonez46.org |
| 16:48.17 | unum | and right now it points to your office ip and you have bonez45.org that points to your home ip? |
| 16:48.23 | unum | who is your registrar? |
| 16:48.42 | levi | bonez46: I believe you can, at your DNS server or DNS service, define your home domain as an alias of your office domain. |
| 16:49.01 | sjansen | Muslims aren't that different from Christians. Yes there are major differences like whether Christ is a god or a prophet. But on points that matter to government like honesty, non-violence, charity, etc. they're pretty close to mainstream Christianity. Heck, I'm pretty sure most American Mulsims are pretty positive about Mom and apple pie too. |
| 16:49.55 | maquis | sjansen: yeah... |
| 16:50.10 | maquis | i got an email a few weeks back going on and on about the evils of islam and such |
| 16:50.15 | levi | sjansen: Yeah. The radical muslim sects are more political entities than they are religious, and they twist the teachings of their holy book to their political ends. |
| 16:50.16 | maquis | and i sent back a rather cutting reply |
| 16:50.32 | maquis | levi: it's not that different from what happened in the crusades, imho |
| 16:50.34 | goozbach | cool tool of the day: ack |
| 16:50.41 | goozbach | it's a better grep |
| 16:50.46 | bonez46 | unum by domain I mean, fyrenice.com and zugraum.com |
| 16:50.48 | maquis | ack? |
| 16:50.53 | maquis | that's a common statement of mine |
| 16:51.10 | levi | maquis: Indeed. Christianity was a *tool* of the inquisition, not the cause of it. |
| 16:51.13 | goozbach | automagicly omits svn and other RCS directories |
| 16:51.25 | maquis | yeah |
| 16:51.32 | goozbach | http://petdance.com/ack/ |
| 16:52.00 | maquis | i've known plenty of muslims in my life, and they have all been very nice peopl |
| 16:52.01 | maquis | e |
| 16:52.03 | levi | The dangerous thing about religion is how it tends to prime people to being used as tools. |
| 16:52.17 | unum | bonez46: then yes you can point them where ever you feel like when ever you feel like |
| 16:52.36 | levi | maquis: There was a guy I met on my mission that we kept running in to. We called him the Happy Muslim. He was always trying to get us to read the Koran so we could be as happy as him. :) |
| 16:52.39 | bonez46 | so I'd redirect at namecheap as they are the registrar and DNS server...right? |
| 16:52.51 | unum | right |
| 16:52.57 | bonez46 | maquis: did you ever read the Koran? |
| 16:53.04 | bonez46 | I haven't yet, but plan to |
| 16:53.09 | unum | I've read parts of it |
| 16:53.20 | maquis | bonez46: i haven't yet, but i've wanted to |
| 16:53.30 | sjansen | You mean Qur'an ? ;-) |
| 16:53.40 | eggyknap | I've known several Muslims that wanted to kill all Americans. This is because they're jerks, not because they're Muslim. |
| 16:53.48 | unum | my friend gave me the essential Qur'an for my birthday ten years ago... |
| 16:54.09 | ^Migs^ | it's not exclusive to Muslims. I have a Korean friend who would like nothing more than to eliminate America, too. |
| 16:54.15 | ^Migs^ | SOUTH Korean, mind you |
| 16:54.16 | JoshH | levi: where was your mission? |
| 16:54.20 | unum | I know plenty of people who were raised mormon who want to kill all americans for the same reason :) |
| 16:54.25 | levi | JoshH: San Diego |
| 16:54.36 | JoshH | ah, everyone is happy there :P |
| 16:54.40 | ^Migs^ | since so many people want to kill America, perhaps that would be a wise course of action |
| 16:54.46 | eggyknap | left San Diego looking for happiness |
| 16:54.52 | eggyknap | s/happiness/affordable housing |
| 16:55.53 | levi | I recently read the House Foreign Affairs Committee study on why everyone hates us now. |
| 16:56.04 | bonez46 | levi: what did it say? |
| 16:56.08 | bonez46 | why are we hated? |
| 16:56.11 | levi | Newflash: it's not because they hate our freedoms |
| 16:56.24 | eggyknap | <sarcasm>What? No way!</sarcasm> |
| 16:56.30 | bonez46 | they hate our politics? |
| 16:56.35 | bonez46 | er.. politicians? |
| 16:57.03 | levi | They hate what our foreign policy has been lately. |
| 16:57.23 | eggyknap | Well, it seems fairly obvious we hold no strong feelings toward our freedoms one way or another lately, so why should anyone else? :) |
| 16:57.32 | unum | The more I read about history the more I hate all of our foriegn policy |
| 16:57.42 | sjansen | They hate that we think our giant military budget gives us the right to dictate world policy by imposing our will on other nations. |
| 16:57.47 | unum | we used to be closer to isolationist but we were still jerks |
| 16:58.10 | sjansen | News flash: No one likes a bully! (Until the bully comes to your defense.) |
| 16:58.12 | levi | eggyknap: Well, on the contrary, they *envy* our relative prosperity and freedom, and they, on the whole, would like to have the same things. |
| 16:58.32 | sjansen | Name a nation that has better policy? |
| 16:59.03 | sjansen | The only way to win is not to play the game. Or in other workds, to be so small you can't possibly offend anyone. |
| 16:59.07 | unum | I think every major power has been a jerk, that's how they've become a major power |
| 16:59.29 | unum | kind of like every fortune 500 company(except maybe ben and jerry's) |
| 16:59.37 | sjansen | No, as a result of becoming a major power they are forced to make decisions that will never please everyone. |
| 16:59.47 | unum | I disagree |
| 16:59.50 | Jayce^ | nah, ben & jerry's have bene real big jerks to folks too |
| 16:59.59 | unum | alright then every one :) |
| 17:00.10 | JoshH | i think we could try harder to please more people than we do, but of course not everyone |
| 17:00.26 | sjansen | Deciding to be jerks did not result in our population growth, economic growth, technological growth, etc. |
| 17:00.44 | Jayce^ | 'cause with all the trouble we have in our own country, we really should focus more on what others want :-p |
| 17:00.49 | unum | actually it did |
| 17:00.55 | JoshH | i mean people here and elsewhere |
| 17:01.05 | levi | We were actually viewed pretty well until Bush's response to 9/11. |
| 17:01.06 | unum | we took about a third of the continal us by force |
| 17:01.07 | Jayce^ | of course, we just have to elect obama, and we'll be more accepted in the world. |
| 17:01.14 | unum | we took important navy bases by force |
| 17:01.28 | Jayce^ | levi, we were viewed so well that 9/11 happened :) |
| 17:01.31 | JoshH | actually, if you consider afghanistan the response to 9-11, even that was pretty positive |
| 17:01.36 | sjansen | Superior culture, good government, plenty of natural resources and little luck gave us our power. |
| 17:01.56 | unum | levi: what foreigners were you talking to |
| 17:01.58 | levi | Yes, we were pretty well justified in Afghanistan. It's Iraq where things went downhill. |
| 17:02.02 | unum | latin american has hated us for a long time |
| 17:02.06 | JoshH | his attitude of "iraq with our without the UN" is what pissed everyone off |
| 17:02.16 | levi | unum: I'm talking about the report I read. |
| 17:02.21 | unum | ah |
| 17:02.41 | sjansen | unum: If you want to hate America, be my guest. We've made plenty of mistakes. Just don't blind yourself to the good in America and the mistakes of others. |
| 17:02.46 | JoshH | plenty of latin americans love america |
| 17:02.54 | JoshH | chavez and castro don't count |
| 17:03.06 | unum | sjansen: I'm just saying we're jerks most of the time when it comes to dealing with other countries |
| 17:03.12 | JoshH | and all teh people that got tortured because of us |
| 17:03.12 | unum | but most countries are |
| 17:03.13 | levi | sjansen: Criticizing American foreign policy does not amount to 'hating America'. |
| 17:03.16 | unum | we're selfish |
| 17:03.21 | unum | and so are they |
| 17:03.25 | sjansen | We're self interested. Who isn't? |
| 17:03.32 | levi | sjansen: That's a critical logical fallacy in the current election debate. |
| 17:03.33 | JoshH | i'm not |
| 17:04.15 | sjansen | Westward expansion is not the only reason we're a super power. |
| 17:04.32 | Jayce^ | everyone had expansion back then |
| 17:04.57 | sjansen | Russia, China and Brazil are also very big. Russia imploded. China is only recently starting to wake up. Brazil spun its wheels for hundreds of years. |
| 17:04.58 | Jayce^ | Britain, Russia, France, Germany, Italy, Brasil, China |
| 17:04.59 | unum | Jayce^: name one african country that had expansion at that time |
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| 17:05.10 | unum | or one latin america country other than brazil |
| 17:05.23 | Jayce^ | South Africa, LIberia.. |
| 17:05.26 | unum | and I think you're actually wrong about china at that time, but japan on the other hand.... |
| 17:05.39 | Jayce^ | as for the second, Mexico (though wound up losing it later) |
| 17:05.40 | sjansen | Our current position is not merely a result of being jerks. |
| 17:05.44 | unum | South Africa was ruled by the british(who you already mentioned) |
| 17:05.49 | Jayce^ | unum, only if you are very selective about your times |
| 17:06.13 | Jayce^ | they had a large westward expansion, and northern.. Southeastern influence too |
| 17:06.18 | levi | Here's the report, if anyone else wants to read it: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/42566.pdf |
| 17:06.19 | unum | Jayce^: oh if you mean over history than your are correct. All major powers have experience expansion |
| 17:06.30 | levi | (Ron Paul is on that committee, FWIW) |
| 17:06.37 | Jayce^ | unum, I mean during the same time we had western expansion |
| 17:06.42 | sjansen | It's also a result of hard work, reasonably efficient govt. and economic polity and immigration policy that attracted some of the worlds best workers and thinkers. |
| 17:06.47 | unum | I'm not sure why that means the people they've exploited in the process shouldn't hate them... |
| 17:06.59 | Jayce^ | it wasn't localized to us.. the manifest destiny concept applied in each culture, and many made heavy use of it |
| 17:07.09 | sjansen | levi: By "hate America" I mean focus only on the bad. I stand behind my claim that's all that unum is doing. |
| 17:07.09 | unum | I don't know that china experience expansion in the 19 century |
| 17:07.50 | JoshH | sjansen: i'm sure he could name a lot of good things about america, but if the goal is to keep improving, we need to recognize the flaws and work to fix them |
| 17:07.54 | unum | sjansen: in this conversation yes I am |
| 17:08.02 | unum | but that's mostly because we only hear the other side |
| 17:08.03 | JoshH | not just say "well, we suck in this and that area, but oh well, we are still good overall" |
| 17:08.10 | sjansen | We can't afford to paper over our mistakes. But we also can't affored to sit in our comfy chairs and feel morally superior as we focus on the mistakes of the past. |
| 17:08.18 | levi | sjansen: I don't know... sometimes it's necessary to focus on the bad in discussion in order to bring some perspective that wasn't there before. It doesn't mean that person doesn't recognize good things. |
| 17:08.33 | Jayce^ | unum, they were just coming off some right before the decline that led to the invasion from external sources.. |
| 17:08.59 | sjansen | levi: Just like politicians should only focus on the bad of their opponents, even if it's to the point of distortion? |
| 17:09.21 | unum | sjansen: are you saying I was distorting the facts? |
| 17:09.43 | sjansen | I'm saying your claim that being a jerk leads to being a major power is wrong. |
| 17:09.58 | unum | well it doesn't always lead there |
| 17:10.08 | sjansen | I'm saying you're wrong because you're ignoring the influence of other important factors like superior culture and good government. |
| 17:10.09 | unum | nice guys finish last is more what I was implying |
| 17:10.35 | unum | sjansen: did you just say our culture is better than everyone else? |
| 17:10.41 | sjansen | Better than some. |
| 17:10.59 | Jayce^ | and "nice" is defined by? |
| 17:11.12 | sjansen | And if you subscribe to the moral relativism that thinks culture can not be compared and ranked, you need to do some hard thinking. |
| 17:11.34 | unum | sorry I didn't realize morality=culture |
| 17:11.43 | sjansen | Lichtenstein might have a nice culture, but it doesn't have the natural resources to become a major power. |
| 17:11.57 | unum | see now that's something I can agree with |
| 17:12.22 | sjansen | Russia might have the natural resources to become a major power, but it didn't have the culture to avoid implosion. |
| 17:12.31 | sjansen | s/Russia/The Soviet Union/ |
| 17:12.36 | sjansen | Gotta be careful with terms there. |
| 17:13.21 | JoshH | well i think the problem there wasn't so much 'culture' as it was government and economy |
| 17:13.25 | sjansen | Brazil has the natural resources and wonderful people, but until recently it was one lousy government after another. |
| 17:13.26 | JoshH | not to be pedantic or anything |
| 17:13.37 | JoshH | but they have pretty great culture, as far as arts and so forth |
| 17:14.09 | sjansen | The government of Brazil is partially a result of culture. |
| 17:14.17 | Sargun_Screen | brazil is a nice place I've heard |
| 17:14.47 | unum | I think use the term culture differently |
| 17:14.50 | Jayce^ | sjansen, no, Russia, if you're looking at the 19th century too.. it's a great example in comparing the effects of government and ideaology in the expansionistic ages |
| 17:15.06 | JoshH | it's nice in some areas, but there are also gangs of young boys packing m-16s and 12 year old prostitutes |
| 17:15.12 | sjansen | Whereas America's history was one of people leaving the old world to seize their own destiny, Brazil's was mostly a history of the elite enslaving and exploiting giant numbers of people. |
| 17:15.15 | unum | as one of my history teachers pointed out goals can be very different |
| 17:15.50 | unum | not all countries have the object of dictating to the rest of the world what they should do |
| 17:16.00 | unum | s/object/objective |
| 17:16.08 | Jayce^ | sjansen, I would still say a lousy government in many ways, but the last 15 years have finally built up some infrastructure, especially their recent oil finds |
| 17:16.16 | sjansen | I'm not blaming Brazilian for creating a culture that allowed bad government instead of overthrowing it, but I'm not denying it's there either. |
| 17:16.30 | JoshH | unum: personally, i'm fine with america pressuring countries with poor human rights records to shape up, but when we have rendition programs, it's harder to do so |
| 17:16.38 | unum | I guess the question is would we have as great as prosperity with out the exploitation that we have indulged in |
| 17:16.44 | Jayce^ | sjansen, I think you summed it it very well in your previous statement |
| 17:16.50 | unum | JoshH: I agree with that |
| 17:17.02 | Jayce^ | "rendition programs" heh |
| 17:17.12 | sjansen | Even today it isn't uncommon for parts of northern Brazil to vote not for the person who will best govern, but the person with history connections to the family. Sometimes because of bribes. Sometimes because of fear. Never because of a consideration of the policies. |
| 17:17.16 | JoshH | what's funny about that? |
| 17:17.46 | unum | I'm so glad no one here votes out of fear ;) |
| 17:18.06 | Jayce^ | the naming of it, and peoples understanding in general about it... so few facts, so many assumptions |
| 17:18.07 | unum | in the last election I don't think I heard one person talk about policy. in this election things are better |
| 17:18.22 | unum | but I still have people telling me how we can't support obama because "he hates america" |
| 17:18.26 | JoshH | is that not the proper name for it? |
| 17:18.37 | sjansen | unum: You do realize that compared to most super powers of the past, we've excercised amazing self restraint don't you? Or was your history teacher so busy focusing on the negative he didn't have time to mention that? |
| 17:18.50 | Jayce^ | unum, and yet, we hear the same for mccain (hey, I feel that way about both, but that's me :) ) |
| 17:19.18 | unum | sjansen: I don't know that we have exercised more self restraint. I haven't read about all super powers of the past |
| 17:19.26 | JoshH | what would you call it exactly? and what do you understand about it that many others don't? |
| 17:19.29 | harleypig | feh ... neither of them "hate" america |
| 17:19.31 | sjansen | unum: I'm not saying our voting culture isn't in decline. In fact, I think our voting culture _is_ in decline. But it's still not as bad as part of northern Brazil. |
| 17:19.32 | maquis | sjansen: schools today are too focused on making the US look bad |
| 17:19.52 | unum | sjansen: again I'm not sure it's in decline |
| 17:20.02 | sjansen | And I speak from experience having lived with and discussed voting with Brazilians. |
| 17:20.02 | unum | I wasn't around for many past debates |
| 17:20.10 | maquis | in my school, a bunch of the teachers spent their time trying to villainize george washington |
| 17:20.21 | maquis | he wasn't perfect, but he certainly wasn't a villain, imho |
| 17:20.34 | sjansen | unum: I'm not talking compared to the last 20 years, I'm talking compared to the last 200 years. |
| 17:20.52 | unum | my teacher went to great length to point out the flaws of some the founding fathers, I don't think she tried to villianize them |
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| 17:21.04 | unum | sjansen: then I would say you are waaaaaaaaay wrong |
| 17:21.11 | sjansen | Television has done a lot of good. Extended the vote to everyone has done a lot of good. But we don't read and think as critically as we once did. |
| 17:21.24 | maquis | unum: you want to give a bit more detail? |
| 17:21.26 | Jayce^ | sjansen, election season in Brasil was a very "interesting" experience |
| 17:21.37 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: you can't exactly argue george washington was a saint. |
| 17:21.43 | JoshH | television can be good, but what's on TV has to be of some quality... unlike most political tv |
| 17:21.51 | unum | there was a lot more corruption in the past |
| 17:21.56 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: he was a good man who did some *very* good things |
| 17:21.59 | unum | voting used to based more off of who could get me a job |
| 17:21.59 | maquis | he wasn't perfect |
| 17:22.03 | maquis | but he wasn't a villain |
| 17:22.08 | unum | atleast during the gilded age |
| 17:22.09 | Sargun_Screen | unum: there is a lot of corruption now |
| 17:22.13 | Sargun_Screen | yeah, true. |
| 17:22.18 | unum | not near as much |
| 17:22.26 | sjansen | You also can't argue that the constitution created by Washington, Jefferson and other imperfect men is inferior to the constanstly changing Brazilian "constitution". |
| 17:22.40 | levi | sjansen: I don't know if that's entirely true. I think the people who don't think critically just have more ways of being heard now. Looking into the past, most of our records are from the people who wrote letters and memoirs. |
| 17:22.53 | unum | and sure at one point people woried about the issue of slavery, but you better believe fear was used to drive that |
| 17:23.08 | unum | I agree with levi |
| 17:23.11 | sjansen | The question is: What does it matter? What is the point of examining all of their flaws? Shouldn't be instead be focusing on what has made America successful and ensure we don't lose it? |
| 17:23.27 | unum | sjansen: why not try and improve |
| 17:23.30 | levi | (Jefferson was off in Europe during the constitutional convention, actually, though it's undeniable that he had some influence on the thinking in it) |
| 17:23.33 | unum | why not try and be better |
| 17:24.17 | levi | sjansen: Because by sugar-coating our history, it looks like we're in steep decline today, when we're actually not doing that bad. |
| 17:24.22 | sjansen | Is it more important for inner city children to know that Washington owned slaves, or that freedom of the press is critical to the long term elimination of evils like slavery? |
| 17:25.18 | levi | sjansen: I don't see why the two are exclusive. |
| 17:25.22 | sjansen | Is it more important to know that Jefferson had affairs, or understand that the right to privacy is a direct response to the evil of a government that has decided to abuse its citizens instead of protecting them? |
| 17:25.39 | unum | well right now we don't teach either one.... |
| 17:25.57 | levi | Again, not exclusive. |
| 17:26.05 | Jayce^ | levi, because textbook pages are expensive, and while being rewritten, some things get more attention when deciding what get's pulled out or put in |
| 17:26.13 | unum | it would be more useful to talk about how jefferson himself turned around and attacked those freedoms himself |
| 17:26.29 | unum | but we tend to even play that down |
| 17:26.33 | Jayce^ | also, it's the same deal with modern 'news' media.. what sells, what grabs attention |
| 17:27.03 | sjansen | Why is it that people who think Clinton's affairs aren't important are the same people who think Jefferson's are? |
| 17:27.05 | levi | Jayce^: You should know better than to claim that those two things can't be in the same book. |
| 17:27.41 | unum | sjansen: they think both should be mentioned so people know that things really aren't that different now |
| 17:28.04 | unum | jefferson was allowed to be president and sleep with a slave, so should clinton... |
| 17:28.07 | Jayce^ | levi, I'm not claiming they can't be, but how much they are, and how much content/space is given to each |
| 17:28.12 | levi | sjansen is presumably talking about what *should* be in the textbooks, not what is likely to be able to put in books. |
| 17:28.14 | unum | though he should have been impeached for perjury... |
| 17:28.24 | sjansen | Now if you want to give a realistic portrayal of the founding fathers without "sugar coating" why not discuss by Adams and Jefferson were pratically at each other's throats? Or why Franklin was sent off partially to be a representative, and partially to get him out of the way? |
| 17:28.41 | unum | that would be good |
| 17:28.50 | levi | sjansen: We *should*, at some level, talk about those things. |
| 17:29.04 | sjansen | You can discuss their flaws, but why not the things that matters. Reveal them as humans, but in the context of the larger debate about good government. |
| 17:29.18 | maquis | personally, i don't think we should use standard text books |
| 17:29.20 | levi | sjansen: Because it shows that what we got came out of great disagreement, from flawed people, and yet is *still* a fine and good document. |
| 17:29.20 | unum | I hate how the schools seem to teach that adams and jefferson believed in minimal government when neither of them did |
| 17:29.22 | JoshH | on one hand i love politics days in this channel, but it keeps me too distracted from work :( |
| 17:29.22 | maquis | text books are boring |
| 17:29.40 | unum | maquis: I'd like to see wiki books |
| 17:29.48 | maquis | books like 1776 and Founding Brothers, and other things like that are *way* better for teaching history |
| 17:30.09 | unum | founding brothers was really interesting |
| 17:30.10 | Jayce^ | sjansen, dunno about you guys, but I did read about that... oh yeah, but our schools didn't teach it.. most kids in my classes were still trying to get the basics of what a map was |
| 17:30.18 | sjansen | Teaching history as drama instead of dry facts would be a giant step forward. |
| 17:30.18 | unum | maquis: have you read "lies my teacher told me" |
| 17:30.18 | maquis | textbooks sell because students have to buy them to pass a class |
| 17:30.26 | maquis | 1776 sells because it's well written |
| 17:30.28 | maquis | and interesting |
| 17:30.31 | maquis | unum: no, i haven't yet |
| 17:30.45 | unum | it's really good. it explain why text books are what they are |
| 17:30.46 | levi | Textbooks would be less boring if they were less sugar-coated. The real history was very interesting, full of real people who had disagreements and foibles, etc. and yet still created a revolutionary government. |
| 17:30.53 | sjansen | But the sex lives of the founding fathers is not drama. It is gossip unworthy of anything but a supermarket checkout stand. |
| 17:30.54 | maquis | unum: yeah... |
| 17:31.09 | maquis | text books are just so... dry |
| 17:31.23 | unum | sjansen: I think hamilton's reaction to his affair is a good lesson for students |
| 17:31.30 | levi | sjansen: It's history, is what it is. |
| 17:31.42 | maquis | i still want to read John Adams |
| 17:31.52 | unum | that was good to |
| 17:31.52 | levi | sjansen: Pretending that things like that didn't happen in the past is one of the serious problems in today's political climate. |
| 17:32.04 | sjansen | Who said anything about pretending? |
| 17:32.05 | Jayce^ | textbooks are boring and what they are because we buy into a prussian style teaching program, that has too many people attempting to influence the 'history', and the memorized 'facts' |
| 17:32.14 | maquis | Jayce^: true |
| 17:32.21 | maquis | i think that's the wrong way to teach history, though |
| 17:32.24 | maquis | i mean... |
| 17:32.29 | maquis | i did not like history in school |
| 17:32.29 | unum | the John Adams book was really good. but I think hamilton has a more interesting history |
| 17:32.51 | maquis | but once i got older, i discovered that i *love* reading books about historical events |
| 17:32.52 | sjansen | But I don't see the point of hammering on the sexcapades of the founding fathers when exploring their disagreements and the motivation of the compromises that form our govt. is more important. |
| 17:32.55 | harleypig | You gotta read Mein Kampf too. |
| 17:32.58 | maquis | both true history and historical fiction |
| 17:32.59 | Jayce^ | hey, you want interesting, read about Franklin :) talk about sleeping around.. |
| 17:33.13 | Jayce^ | and with his son being an extreme loyalist. wheee |
| 17:33.17 | harleypig | Franklin's my hero for that very reason. |
| 17:33.19 | unum | I couldn't make it through Mein Kampf... |
| 17:33.27 | harleypig | Neither could I. |
| 17:33.43 | unum | I made it through about a third of the federalist papers |
| 17:33.49 | harleypig | I haven't read that much hooey in one sitting in a long time. |
| 17:33.59 | Jayce^ | ditto, kept wanting to scream, argue at the book.. Hate that attitude (why I avoid a lot of political discussions).. |
| 17:34.02 | maquis | even books like Maus are good for introducing people to history in a non-threatening way |
| 17:34.18 | levi | sjansen: Who's talking about hammering on them? And given the amount of analysis of what the framers meant when they wrote the constitution, don't you think it's important to know who they were and where they came from? |
| 17:34.28 | maquis | just in general, schools are not good at making things interesting |
| 17:34.30 | sjansen | I go back to the original source of the whole debate. It's nice to be able to sit in a comfy chair surrounded by liberty and attack the people that made is possible, but it does no one any good. |
| 17:34.40 | unum | sjansen: I agree that it's not neccisary to bring up the sexcapades, but I don't think current history classes teach the things you say they should either |
| 17:34.43 | maquis | they take immensely interesting subjects and smash them down into something dull and boring |
| 17:34.55 | sjansen | It encourages focusing on the mistakes without learning from them and ignore the positive without striving to perpetuate it. |
| 17:35.19 | unum | I think text books should cover more of the things that founding brother did |
| 17:35.44 | sjansen | We may be jerks. But the good we've done far outweighs the bad. We've been incredibly well behaved compared to every major power in the past. |
| 17:36.05 | sjansen | Why? That's the question we should be exploring. Not how many strippers danced on the edge of Franklin's bed. |
| 17:36.09 | Jayce^ | levi, given an example, my Sophmore history teacher spent more time talking about the 'escapades' of the founding fathers, than what they did |
| 17:36.09 | unum | but we need to talk about the mistakes so we can fix them |
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| 17:36.14 | maquis | yeah... we didn't bury the confucian scholars alive or anything like that |
| 17:36.26 | maquis | and our leaders never fried people in vats of oil while they were alive |
| 17:36.46 | unum | maquis: are you sure? |
| 17:36.50 | harleypig | they did, however, put people into concentration camps and allow troops to treat them very poorly. |
| 17:36.51 | levi | Jayce^: He was probably not a very good history teacher, then. |
| 17:36.53 | maquis | (i was recently reading some very interesting books on ancient chinese history... so...) |
| 17:37.08 | levi | Jayce^: Or she, or whatever. |
| 17:37.30 | sjansen | I never said we should ignore the infamy of the oppression of Native Americans, the hubris of Vietnam, the insanity of McCarthyism. |
| 17:37.34 | Jayce^ | levi, no, sucked, also had a history of filming the girls dive team, but not getting the face in the camera.. multiple lawsuits, couldnt' get fired because of tenure |
| 17:37.45 | unum | sjansen: then I think we are agreed |
| 17:37.59 | maquis | hmm |
| 17:38.00 | Jayce^ | now, compare that to my AP teachers, who was fantastic.. encouraged discussion and free thought... |
| 17:38.04 | unum | can we talk about our over throw of democratic goverments? |
| 17:38.09 | levi | I'm certainly not advocating spending more time on their flaws than the substantive effects they had on our history. |
| 17:38.20 | sjansen | But knowing about the trail of tears isn't what ended McCarthyism. Knowing about the freedom of press did. |
| 17:38.24 | Jayce^ | how about finding a textbook in a public school that's willing to question the New Deal |
| 17:38.29 | maquis | i had an American History teacher who talked more about the 7 years he spent living with the Massai people in Kenya than he did about US History... |
| 17:38.35 | maquis | but that was actually insanely interesting |
| 17:38.35 | unum | so that we could replace them with governments that were more friend to us economically(but worse to their people) |
| 17:38.38 | maquis | and quite educational |
| 17:39.02 | Jayce^ | sjansen, or how about learning the fact that Jackson caused the trail of tears despite the Supreme Courts verdicts, and how separation allows a lot of that.. |
| 17:39.05 | sjansen | We don't correct our mistakes with guilt. We correct our mistakes by recognizing when we have violated a moral principles and that we need to change our behavior. |
| 17:39.35 | unum | but we rarely talk about these violations |
| 17:39.38 | unum | we try and cover them up |
| 17:39.56 | unum | our text books don't mention our support for castro |
| 17:40.13 | levi | sjansen: There's a difference between guilt and real self-analysis. We have no need to feel guilt over our nation's past transgressions, but we should still know about them and learn from them. |
| 17:40.14 | unum | they don't mention the pentagon papers |
| 17:40.25 | Jayce^ | we rarely do? just depends on who you pay attention to, and what they preferred |
| 17:40.39 | sjansen | There isn't time to discuss every detail of American history in high school. If you want the level of detail, get a Masters and spend the rest of your life in a bread line. |
| 17:40.48 | unum | I'd fully support "Good Night and Good Luck" being part of our american history classes |
| 17:41.18 | unum | Jayce^: I meant in our text books |
| 17:41.19 | sjansen | levi: Exactly. The thing that set me off was unum's apparent insistence on focusing on why we should feel guilty. |
| 17:41.19 | levi | sjansen: So, do you think it's okay to completely ignore the missteps and failures to meet up with our ideals in High School history education? |
| 17:41.27 | unum | a lot of teacher do choose to bring them up |
| 17:41.40 | sjansen | We're jerks. Sure. I admit it. So is everyone else. But we've been better behaved jerks that anyone would have ever expected. |
| 17:42.07 | sjansen | levi: And what did I ever say to make you think that? |
| 17:42.10 | Jayce^ | what helped me in history class was having parents that read a lot, and taught me to do the same, especially to question what I read... |
| 17:42.15 | unum | I was just trying to point out that being jerks isn't new |
| 17:42.17 | goozbach | plus, we're jerks with the best stuff |
| 17:42.25 | levi | sjansen: I was hoping you *didn't* think that, because I don't think it makes any sense. |
| 17:42.32 | Jayce^ | that always either got me in big trouble with the lame teachers, or really helped me with the good ones |
| 17:42.41 | sjansen | Look through the history. I brought up more mistakes than anyone else in the entire discussion. Maybe combined. Sure looks like I want to cover stuff up, doesn't it? |
| 17:43.04 | unum | goozbach: you mean like when we tell Peru they better keep buing MS software for goverment use or we'll stop giving them aide |
| 17:43.10 | maquis | Jayce^: agreed |
| 17:43.32 | maquis | my parents were both big readers, and i questioned things pretty often |
| 17:43.35 | Jayce^ | we really should stop both unum |
| 17:43.45 | maquis | i also had teachers who occasionally allowed debates |
| 17:43.56 | maquis | during which it was almost always me disagreeing with the rest of the class... |
| 17:43.59 | goozbach | unum: compare a slum in Chicago with a slum in Lima then we'll talk |
| 17:44.03 | levi | sjansen: You mentioned a lot of mistakes, but you also vehemently said we shouldn't be focusing on them. I'm not entirely sure what your ideal curriculum looks like based on your arguments so far, and the question was meant to help figure it out. |
| 17:44.05 | unum | I was just trying to point out there are good historical reasons other people are upset with us. They have every right to be upset with england, france, germany, and japan as well |
| 17:44.27 | Jayce^ | goozbach, I really don't think the term slum can apply equally to anywhere in the US :) |
| 17:44.58 | goozbach | Jayce^: my point exactly |
| 17:45.17 | unum | goozbach: they crazy thing is they seem to have less drug problems(as in people using them) |
| 17:45.25 | Jayce^ | unum, it's a matter of how you look at the world... do you keep enumerating why you hsould be mad? or move on? knowing what happened and focusing on it are very diffferent things |
| 17:45.44 | Jayce^ | unum, I'd totally disagree with that |
| 17:46.00 | goozbach | even the people who live in "abject poverty" in the US don't have a sewage "Canal" which connects to a ditch from the front of their tarpaper shack |
| 17:46.08 | sjansen | levi: Focusing on the mistakes means stopping there. That's what most history teachers today seem to be doing. |
| 17:46.25 | unum | Jayce^: I'm looking at how I can influence foreign policy to make it so people hate us less |
| 17:46.53 | sjansen | Instead of "McCarthy was a bad man" why not "McCarthy threatened the ideals that made America great but the system was able correct itself because..." |
| 17:47.05 | Jayce^ | unum, if you just look at 'how I can not piss people off', you still will.. |
| 17:47.18 | levi | sjansen: I'm not sure why you think most history teachers are focusing on the mistakes. I hear plenty of people saying that history teachers today don't mention the mistakes at all. |
| 17:47.42 | Jayce^ | unum, I was disagreeing with the drug usage levels though... I saw a much higher usage level in BR than I could believe.. |
| 17:47.43 | unum | Jayce^: just because you will always upset people doesn't justify exploiting them |
| 17:48.03 | sjansen | Instea of "Vietnam turned out badly" it should be "Given the following world conditions, we decided that getting involved in Vietnam was critical. Unfortunately, we made the following mistakes that doomed us to failure. Thankfully, in the long run it didn't matter because..." |
| 17:48.17 | levi | Jayce^: Clearly there will always be people upset, but that doesn't mean you can't make *fewer* people upset. |
| 17:48.19 | *** part/#utah shalkie (n=user@dhcp172.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 17:48.20 | Jayce^ | but not focusing on 'not pissing off' doesn't mean exploiting either.. negotiation should find a *balance* |
| 17:48.39 | goozbach | straw poll: who here has used a phone book which has been dropped on your doorstep in the last year? |
| 17:48.48 | unum | sjansen: 40,000 american soldeir being killed didn't matter because? |
| 17:48.50 | sjansen | levi: Depends on the school. |
| 17:48.50 | levi | goozbach: I have. |
| 17:48.52 | Jayce^ | goozbach, does target practice count? |
| 17:49.07 | unum | 40,000 veitnamese getting killed didn't matter because? |
| 17:49.21 | goozbach | Jayce^: no, used it for it's intended purpose |
| 17:49.23 | Jayce^ | and how many on the other side? |
| 17:49.33 | unum | Jayce^: I agree but we are exploiting |
| 17:49.50 | unum | goozbach: I did |
| 17:50.04 | sjansen | unum: We got involved in Vietnam with a goal of preventing the spread of communism, not with the goal killing a bunch of young American soldiers. We lost and Vietnam was overrun by communists, but global communism was still defeated by its own inherent weaknesses. |
| 17:50.05 | unum | can't remember why I think I ended up using the internet in the end |
| 17:50.27 | sjansen | unum: Thanks for going out of your way to distort my words and make me look as evil as possible. |
| 17:50.34 | unum | sjansen: ya and we killed 80,000 people for no reason |
| 17:50.39 | unum | which does matter |
| 17:50.53 | Jayce^ | no reason? now that's a false argument |
| 17:50.58 | levi | Going back to where we started, the executive summary of the House report says: "The generally positive ratings from the 1950's to 200 moved to generally negative after 2002. As the very first witness in a 10-hearing series with pollsters and regional anlalysts told the Subcommittee--'We have never seen numbers this low.'" |
| 17:51.01 | unum | and there are people who dispute those were our real reason for going there |
| 17:51.09 | unum | but that doesn't get mentioned |
| 17:51.09 | sjansen | unum: it = our defeat in the Vietnam not the death other thousands |
| 17:51.30 | sjansen | Our defeat in Vietnam didn't matter in the long run. There. Happy. Jerk. |
| 17:51.44 | sjansen | unum is a jerk |
| 17:51.49 | sjansen | Let's all focus of unum being a jerk. |
| 17:51.50 | levi | Typos in the above quote are mine, not the report's. :) |
| 17:51.54 | unum | it depends on what are real objective for being ther ewere |
| 17:51.59 | sjansen | It is critically important that everyone know unum is a jerk. |
| 17:52.04 | Jayce^ | levi, and we've also seen a *larger* drop in recent years of internal perspective on the federal government |
| 17:52.07 | unum | levi: that is interesting that were mostly positive |
| 17:52.13 | sjansen | unum will never be able to improve unless we focus on why unum is a jerk. |
| 17:52.28 | levi | Jayce^: I'm not sure what you mean by 'internal perspective...' |
| 17:52.47 | Jayce^ | levi, american's views of their own federal government |
| 17:53.01 | levi | Well, in the last couple of years, yes. |
| 17:53.05 | sjansen | unum: Does the personal application of my counter argument help you understand why I think the whole "we're jerks" observation is pointless? |
| 17:53.13 | unum | nope |
| 17:53.36 | unum | I tend to be overly confrontational, I tend to raise my voice to easily |
| 17:53.59 | unum | these are thing that make it hard for me to make friends and make me less effective in trying to share my view points |
| 17:54.05 | thaddeusq | wow, unum is a jerk |
| 17:54.06 | Jayce^ | tends to be the opposite, leaving confrontations |
| 17:54.08 | unum | I need to know these things if I'm going to be more effective |
| 17:54.21 | unum | thaddeusq: ya, but I know it because friends have told me so |
| 17:54.32 | unum | i used to be an even bigger jerk |
| 17:54.37 | thaddeusq | unum: glad I could help |
| 17:55.05 | unum | when ever any one talked about anything I didn't like(like reality tv) I would talk about stupid I thought it was |
| 17:55.06 | dataw0lf | no, no, throwing a fit and screaming unintelligibly like a madman works. |
| 17:55.10 | dataw0lf | Look at Cindy Sheehan. |
| 17:55.18 | dataw0lf | oh, wait. |
| 17:55.38 | unum | but fortunatly people pointed out to me what I jerk I was and I've gotten better |
| 17:55.50 | sjansen | There are people who also debate whether Elvis is alive and orbiting Jupiter right now. I think it's pretty clear we chose to get involved in Vietnam because we were afraid of the global spread of Communism. |
| 17:56.08 | sjansen | Our fear lead us to make poor decisions. |
| 17:56.08 | unum | I don't think that was the main concern |
| 17:56.14 | levi | Jayce^: Here's a graph that illustrates Bush's approval for the past few years, though I'm not sure if that's exactly what you meant: http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval.htm |
| 17:56.22 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, excellent example :) |
| 17:56.24 | thaddeusq | but, unum wasn't alive to know. |
| 17:56.41 | unum | I think our main concern was combatting on other gobal super power |
| 17:56.47 | unum | the more power they had the less we had |
| 17:57.00 | sjansen | unum: What do you think it was then? Surely not oil. Or controlling the global spice supply. |
| 17:57.06 | thaddeusq | but, unum wasn't alive to know. |
| 17:57.07 | Jayce^ | levi, need one correlated with the other brances also, as well as 'departments'.. I've seen a few out there.. |
| 17:57.45 | levi | Do they look significantly different? |
| 17:57.46 | Jayce^ | sjansen, no, I think it was our attempt to play nice with the UN, in a game with russia and china that led to losses there.. |
| 17:57.56 | Jayce^ | we didn't want another Korean war experience |
| 17:58.03 | unum | I wouldn't blame it on the un |
| 17:58.16 | unum | but it was an attempt to maintain western control in the region |
| 17:58.32 | unum | and stop russian expansion(it's the communism part I don't like) |
| 17:58.32 | Jayce^ | levi, even lower, overall similar, but you can pin certain events to drops in specific branches.. |
| 17:58.34 | sjansen | unum: You forget that super power was founded on a philosophy of violent overthrown and internal betrayal. |
| 17:58.58 | unum | sjansen: atleast they admit to supporting violent over throw |
| 17:58.59 | unum | :) |
| 17:59.13 | dataw0lf | face palms |
| 17:59.26 | dataw0lf | Are you really trying to make the argument that the Soviet Union was better, morally, then the United States? |
| 17:59.30 | dataw0lf | You need to take a history class. |
| 17:59.47 | unum | dataw0lf: no |
| 17:59.52 | dataw0lf | The U.S., while it has done some extremely regrettable things, has performed far more morally than any other world power. |
| 18:00.10 | sjansen | unum: But of course the goal of the Vietnam war was the death of thousands. |
| 18:00.14 | Jayce^ | or how about the modern manifest destiny as seen from the maoist revolution into modern china |
| 18:00.20 | dataw0lf | Japan, China, U.K., France, etc, etc. All, much, much worse than the United States. |
| 18:01.07 | Jayce^ | and you can't blame any specific actions of Bush as being singly "worse" than we've previously done.. |
| 18:01.07 | unum | dataw0lf: I just don't like how we try to cover up those things in our history classes |
| 18:01.09 | Jayce^ | sick of hearing that |
| 18:01.18 | dataw0lf | what history classes are you taking? |
| 18:01.25 | unum | Jayce^: and that's the main point I was trying to make |
| 18:01.42 | maquis | unum: you've taken some very different history classes from any of the ones that i've taken |
| 18:01.47 | dataw0lf | The negative role of the United States in a variety of foreign and domestic situations has been pored over time and time again. |
| 18:01.53 | unum | dataw0lf: one where we didn't talk about our actions un cuba |
| 18:02.04 | unum | maquis: mine ran out of time..... |
| 18:02.13 | maquis | unum: then go take your history classes someplace else |
| 18:02.20 | dataw0lf | The real problem is that we don't learn from our mistakes. Not that we don't recognize them. |
| 18:02.26 | unum | probably because my teach spent so much time talking about jefferson's sex stories with his slaves :) |
| 18:02.48 | maquis | dataw0lf: agreed |
| 18:02.51 | sjansen | unum: The fact that you think "atl east they admit to supporting violent over throw" is evidence that you're focusing on the mistakes instead of the lesson. |
| 18:02.59 | unum | my teacher did talk about a lot it just wasn't in the text books |
| 18:03.06 | sjansen | s/is/is a counter argument is/ |
| 18:03.14 | levi | dataw0lf: How do you think we could change things such that we would learn from them? Or do you think it's just a fundamental problem that won't go away? |
| 18:03.55 | maquis | levi: i think that if teachers taught history with an idea of how it relates to day, that would help |
| 18:03.58 | levi | I.e., do you think some change in how history is taught would help us to learn better from our mistakes? |
| 18:04.17 | dataw0lf | Well, I'd like the American government to actually consider and think about turning countries into democracies, rather than using it as a political point. We generally get involved for short term gain, which often causes us to support dictators or violent regimes. |
| 18:05.39 | sjansen | Focus on the guiding principles. Distrust of government, distrust of the majority, distrust of a powerful elite, need for powerful centralized control balanced by freedom for local experimentation. |
| 18:05.41 | unum | the funny thing is that we play down the moral reason for our most morally justified war.... |
| 18:05.56 | harleypig | wwii? |
| 18:06.08 | unum | the civil war |
| 18:06.15 | dataw0lf | haha! |
| 18:06.23 | levi | I think artificially turning countries into democracies is dangerous if the citizenry isn't prepared for it, though I agree that we shouldn't say that's what we're trying to do if we're not truly committed to doing it. |
| 18:06.28 | dataw0lf | You think the civil war was more morally justified than WW2? |
| 18:06.30 | Jayce^ | heck, if you want to talk about a "misguided war" let's go back and discuss the war of 1812 |
| 18:06.34 | harleypig | the civil was *not* about slavery, though it was certainly part of it. |
| 18:06.42 | sjansen | Notice how all of those are the summary of patterns. We learned to distrust government because of repeated abuse. Instead of discussing the tea tax in isolation, it is used to illustrate a pattern. |
| 18:06.45 | dataw0lf | yea, the civil war was indirectly about slavery. |
| 18:06.51 | unum | dataw0lf: well it depends on when you want to talk about the beginning of our involvement of WWII |
| 18:06.53 | dataw0lf | it was more about industrialization and the shifting of economies. |
| 18:07.03 | Jayce^ | harleypig, that was a catalyst, a rally-cry, and something more a focus at the end |
| 18:07.08 | unum | the civil war was completely about slavery |
| 18:07.14 | dataw0lf | oh unum. |
| 18:07.19 | dataw0lf | You really do need a history lesson man |
| 18:07.25 | harleypig | feh ... the civil war was about the south wanting to leave the union. |
| 18:07.30 | unum | and as for WWII do you mean when we declared war or when we started fighting? |
| 18:07.36 | Jayce^ | federalism vs states rights |
| 18:07.47 | harleypig | They used slavery as a reason, but the truth is, the north and south were (and still are to some extent) different cultures. |
| 18:07.51 | unum | what happened to distrust of what yea read |
| 18:07.52 | sjansen | We should do the same with more modern events. I think it has become, for example, that "War is hell and can often be avoided." It is also clear "Sometimes war can't be avoided, so we should be prepared." |
| 18:07.59 | Jayce^ | which federalism needed a stronger statement at the time, but now has swung waaaay too far the other way |
| 18:08.33 | sjansen | I don't think little Johny's head will explode when faced with contradictory statements like that. We all face decisions every day of our life. |
| 18:08.38 | unum | so what history book did you read that said the civil war was about states rights and not slavery |
| 18:09.02 | unum | I'd like a non text book as evidence |
| 18:09.13 | harleypig | I didn't |
| 18:09.22 | harleypig | My mom's from North Carolina. |
| 18:09.47 | JoshH | i remember reading quotes from jefferson davis somewhere that basically said it was all about slavery, but it was years ago and i'm sure i couldn't find the same source now |
| 18:09.54 | dataw0lf | personally, I'd rather discuss WW2 and how we should've nuked Japan into a pile of lifeless rocks. |
| 18:09.56 | Jayce^ | sjansen, but what if somebody might be upset or confused by that statement... little johnny might be ok, but susie might not, so we can't allow it |
| 18:10.26 | harleypig | little susie needs to be told "Suck it up, buttercup!" |
| 18:10.26 | Jayce^ | unum, that's all over the place, any major civil war discussion covers that |
| 18:10.36 | JoshH | dataw0lf: well, we did, but not completely |
| 18:10.37 | Jayce^ | harleypig, but we can't do that in modern society |
| 18:10.45 | dataw0lf | JoshH: psh, we didn't at all. |
| 18:10.45 | sjansen | Slavery == economics, culture, relgion |
| 18:10.49 | harleypig | Yeah we can, we just take a lot of grief for it. |
| 18:11.00 | dataw0lf | Compare the infrastructural damage and civilian loss of life between Germany and Japan. |
| 18:11.09 | dataw0lf | we hardly did anything to Japan, relatively speaking. |
| 18:11.14 | JoshH | we nuked them enough to end the war, pretty much as soon as we were able to |
| 18:11.19 | sjansen | The civil war can be about slavery, and not be about slavery at the same time. Like dataw0lf said, slavery is a convenient proxy for a giant number of other issues. |
| 18:11.25 | dataw0lf | and I hate how everyone nowadays cries about Japan being nuked. |
| 18:11.36 | harleypig | dataw0lf: we permanently screwed their national psyche ... i'd say that was pretty major. |
| 18:11.49 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, but we need a formal apology!!! :-p |
| 18:12.23 | harleypig | "I'm sorry you tried to beat us up and lost so bad." |
| 18:12.24 | Jayce^ | harleypig, I think it screwed ours too... |
| 18:12.28 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: how about Japan delivers a formal apology for the atrocities they committed during WW2 that are at the very least comparable to the Nazis, perhaps worse. |
| 18:12.40 | dataw0lf | And don't get me started on how terrible Japanese society and culture is. Ugh. |
| 18:12.48 | harleypig | I had a neighbour who survived the Bataan Death March. |
| 18:12.49 | JoshH | they are at least as bad, just on a smaller scale |
| 18:12.52 | sjansen | Although to be fair, we nuked Japan not to be kind to the Japanese but to avoid the incredible losses as we pushed island to island. There's also some evidence that the second bomb wasn't necessary, but rushed through so that it could be tested before Japan surrendered. |
| 18:12.54 | dataw0lf | should've left a gaping hole. |
| 18:13.00 | harleypig | He lost every single one of his school buddies. |
| 18:13.05 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, I'd only be ok with that if it was actually the decision makers from the time... but I ridicule it coming from today's society |
| 18:13.16 | harleypig | He would never have accepted an apology. |
| 18:13.19 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: oh boo hoo the poor Japanese :\ |
| 18:13.20 | Jayce^ | but yeah, the rape of nanking is such a small slice of what they did everywhere |
| 18:13.22 | dataw0lf | >_< |
| 18:13.27 | dataw0lf | Jayce^: Indeed. |
| 18:13.38 | sjansen | The more interesting discussion is not how the war ended, but what we did afterwards. We spend giant sums rebuilding German and Japan, turning them into economic powerhouses that decades later threatened to overrun us. |
| 18:13.57 | Jayce^ | I hate these modern governmental apologies from things done generations ago.. |
| 18:14.00 | harleypig | That's not why they're threatening to overrun us ... |
| 18:14.14 | harleypig | our own actions (and inaction) is threatening to allow them to overrun us. |
| 18:14.33 | dataw0lf | we should've sent Japan back to medieval times, in my opinion. |
| 18:14.35 | sjansen | Why? Because of the lessons learned from WWI - the most critical being that when you leave your oppponent bitter and broken, you leave a ticking time bomb for your future. |
| 18:14.58 | Jayce^ | sjansen, exactly, and what's really interesting is you read the media/policy coverage shortly after the war on that very topic, then compare it with modern reporting on iraq/afg/etc.. |
| 18:15.01 | harleypig | sjansen: not to mention it's just a better moral position |
| 18:16.14 | sjansen | From WWII we learned that building up Japan resulted decades later in the uncomfortable image of the Japanese gradually buying America. They their economic conditions reversed, and we discovered that economic competition is uncomfortable but much less bloody than war. |
| 18:16.18 | Jayce^ | sjansen, and france still didnt' learn there lesson |
| 18:16.38 | sjansen | Now we're watching China buy America and we're squirming again. What can we learn from the past? |
| 18:17.03 | Jayce^ | "you can buy *anything* with money" |
| 18:17.17 | sjansen | heh |
| 18:20.24 | unum | you want to read something from our history that compare to iraq road about our occupation of the phillipines |
| 18:23.25 | harleypig | feh ... the problem isn't with Japan, China or anyone else buying us up (though that *is* a problem) ... |
| 18:23.41 | harleypig | the problem is that we are making ourselves stupider. |
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| 18:26.48 | elg | ~lart levi |
| 18:26.48 | ibot | pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps levi |
| 18:26.56 | sjansen | The problem is that our poor economic policy, leveraging our future by increasing the debt, makes us much more vulnerable to China. And China today is much less friendly than Japan in the 80's. |
| 18:26.56 | harleypig | thwaps? |
| 18:26.58 | elg | blames emcnabb |
| 18:26.59 | levi | ~larg elg |
| 18:27.03 | levi | ~lart elg |
| 18:27.03 | ibot | beats elg senseless with a 50lb Unix manual |
| 18:27.29 | elg | sjansen: not to mention they kick our gymnastic and diving trash |
| 18:28.53 | emcnabb | elg, it's totally sjansen's fault. I think he's a spy for the Chinese |
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| 18:35.01 | opapo | I get a "[error] [client 127.0.0.1] File does not exist: /htdocs" error in my apache log file |
| 18:35.49 | opapo | Can someone guess why? |
| 18:39.07 | unum | so can we all agree next time some tries to start a conversation about politics and they bring up something like "he had an affair 40 years ago" we will say, how about we talk about policy |
| 18:41.36 | elg | unum: but you didn't eat your vegetables when you were 3 |
| 18:42.50 | Jayce^ | elg, under $candidates policies, you'd have the state preschool program to keep that from ever happening to another person, isn't that nice? |
| 18:43.42 | elg | only if they send unum to preschool now, and put it on reality tv |
| 18:44.18 | levi | And elg, too, for the comparison. |
| 18:44.32 | mrpull | takes a gamble on the itunes 8 upgrade |
| 18:44.38 | elg | i'd sit on the other preschoolers |
| 18:44.49 | Jayce^ | just finished mine mrpull gotta restart now (new quicktime libs :( ) |
| 18:44.51 | levi | I want an iPod Touch, but they didn't get much cheaper. :( |
| 18:45.07 | mrpull | I was fearing that. we'll see on this vista machine. |
| 18:45.13 | Jayce^ | wish they'd just integrated with last or pandora instead of building their own for Genius |
| 18:45.40 | mrpull | pandora would have been cool |
| 18:46.51 | mrpull | I guess they can somehow monetize the stats they get back |
| 18:46.52 | sjansen | BTW, this type of debate is what we don't see enough of anymore. Instead of absorbing the words of talking heads, or launch bombs in blogs, we need to re-create more the environments for diverse groups to discuss controversial topics. |
| 18:48.18 | *** part/#utah opapo (n=daniel@www.alpine.k12.ut.us) |
| 18:51.22 | elg | this byu alumni update thing is getting ridiculous |
| 18:51.26 | elg | the whole thing is ludicrous |
| 18:52.17 | elg | they've sent me enough physical mailers that they could have provided return postage on the first one and I could have checked the "no change" checkbox and been done with it. Or they could have paid for a simple web-based update to their database |
| 18:53.14 | tensai | oh, I missed a great conversation |
| 18:53.16 | elg | instead I get a half dozen emails and postcards asking me to call a freakin' telephone number, whether or not my contact info has changed. I am not going to do that. I wish I had started counting them |
| 18:54.25 | tensai | sjansen: you'd totally right about a broken and defeated enemy. it's makes you feel all nice inside that you taught them a lesson, but pragmatically it's a no-win. |
| 18:54.31 | levi | sjansen: I agree. |
| 18:55.58 | levi | sjansen: Though I'm not sure if anything came out of that paritcular discussion. |
| 18:56.21 | tensai | seemed to be a better discussion than the previous one on abortion |
| 18:56.26 | tensai | which I also missed |
| 18:56.36 | levi | Yeah, that one was a mess. |
| 18:57.34 | unum | my computers seems to randomly freeze in relation to network related stuff |
| 18:58.11 | sjansen | levi: In a debate, only rarely do the participants learn much in the short term. Observers, however, get exposed to thing they might not have been before and as a result learn more in the short term. In the long term, the seats of doubt might be sown in participants, opening them to future change of opinion. |
| 18:58.32 | sjansen | So unum and I may not have changed our posisitions much today. But in the future we'll probably react differently. |
| 18:58.52 | levi | sjansen: Yeah, I think debate needs to be frequent to be of much use. |
| 18:58.55 | harleypig | you'll flip flop |
| 18:59.00 | *** join/#utah Jayce^ (n=jayce@office.bluehost.com) |
| 18:59.00 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce^] by ChanServ |
| 18:59.17 | harleypig | next week sjansen will be arguing unum's position and unum will be arguing sjansen's |
| 18:59.32 | elg | and Jayce^ will be wearing the speedo? |
| 18:59.35 | Jayce^ | sjansen has a position? |
| 18:59.40 | harleypig | *blink* |
| 18:59.49 | Jayce^ | elg shoots, he scores |
| 19:00.14 | harleypig | the juxtaposition of elg's and Jayce^'s comments ... |
| 19:00.33 | sjansen | Jayce^: Of course. But because it doesn't fit nicely into the liberal and conservative bins its harder to recognize. |
| 19:00.43 | unum | I do that all the time with a friend, we flip flop |
| 19:01.15 | sjansen | If unum and I end of flipping positions it means we agree in substance and disagree on presentation. |
| 19:01.32 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (n=jalbrets@216-110-89-130.static.twtelecom.net) |
| 19:02.19 | Jayce^ | sjansen, I was just talking in general... say free software, shells, languages, etc :) |
| 19:02.38 | sjansen | Ah. Irony. |
| 19:02.54 | levi | Sarcasm. :) |
| 19:02.55 | sjansen | jumps out of his chair, started as something zooms over his head |
| 19:03.26 | sjansen | I mean irony in the Alanis Morisette sense. ;-) |
| 19:04.05 | levi | Yeah I really do think. |
| 19:04.11 | dataw0lf | haha. |
| 19:04.13 | dataw0lf | Well done. |
| 19:04.51 | Jayce^ | touch? |
| 19:05.15 | levi | Did anyone read the link to the House Foriegn Affairs Committee report? |
| 19:08.02 | eggyknap | Anyone know any local people who are good with weblogic server? |
| 19:10.41 | tensai | levi: reading it now. I completely agree with what I've read so far. it's the same things that I dislike about our country. |
| 19:14.12 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp25.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 19:14.12 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 19:14.27 | jalbretsen | wants the link of which tensai speaks.... |
| 19:14.48 | tensai | http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/42566.pdf |
| 19:14.48 | levi | http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/42566.pdf |
| 19:14.56 | jalbretsen | double double |
| 19:14.59 | jalbretsen | tx |
| 19:15.27 | rsimpkins | Does anyone know what the sharedfactor slab tunable does on SMP machines? |
| 19:15.54 | levi | I imagine it changes the sharedfactor. ;) |
| 19:18.10 | rsimpkins | levi: In what ways does changing the sharedfactor change slab behavior? |
| 19:18.20 | levi | Beats me. |
| 19:18.48 | rsimpkins | I've not yet found the slab guru I seek. Let me know if you find such a person. |
| 19:19.24 | levi | Mmmm, delicious pear. |
| 19:20.11 | sjansen | So how is everyone planning on spending their last moments until the earth is swallowed by a black hole tomorrow? |
| 19:20.37 | elg | ice cream |
| 19:20.47 | elg | what time? |
| 19:20.50 | levi | Eating a delicious pear. |
| 19:21.06 | levi | I think they're turning on the LHC today, but they won't actually be colliding anything. |
| 19:23.23 | jalbretsen | sjansen, luckily, I can escape the black hole using my TARDIS |
| 19:24.15 | tensai | I for one welcome our new black hole overlord |
| 19:26.52 | Tene | I'm still not clear on exactly why anyone thinks that it might cause global destruction. Where did this idea come from? |
| 19:27.58 | levi | Tene: There's some theory that a collision in the LHC could cause a black hole to form that would somehow destabilize the fabric of the universe. |
| 19:28.08 | levi | Or something like that. |
| 19:28.43 | dataw0lf | I don't think it's really a theory |
| 19:28.59 | tensai | it's a tin foil hat sort of theory |
| 19:29.03 | tensai | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_the_Large_Hadron_Collider |
| 19:29.04 | dataw0lf | they're predicting that the LHC will create tiny black holes |
| 19:29.16 | dataw0lf | some people think that one will grow and devour the earth |
| 19:29.44 | dataw0lf | but the lifetime of the black holes, if they're created, is extremely short, and they're going to be extraordinarily tiny. |
| 19:30.24 | fozzmoo | Couldn't a tiny black hole engulf the planet? |
| 19:30.26 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 19:30.51 | levi | http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html |
| 19:31.21 | jalbretsen | extraordinarily tiny black holes can have a swartchild radius that can envelope the hole planet. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! |
| 19:31.42 | dataw0lf | fozzmoo: if it DOES create black holes, that essentially will have to prove Hawking radiation as well, which will decay the black hole too quickly for any problem to actually arise |
| 19:32.08 | elg | dataw0lf: you black hole hope killer |
| 19:32.18 | elg | i'm still eating ice cream |
| 19:32.36 | fozzmoo | I think microscopic black holes is the change we've all been hoping for. |
| 19:32.54 | sjansen | fozzmoo: Sure, a tiny black hole could devour the earth. As long as it doesn't evaporate first. But we only recently realized that black holes might be able to evaporate. |
| 19:32.54 | levi | It would certaily be a change in particle physics. |
| 19:32.56 | elg | the new fad diet |
| 19:33.11 | dataw0lf | if it does create black holes, that'll be one pretty awesome change. |
| 19:33.16 | elg | sjansen: good thing we realized in time, before one swallowed the earth |
| 19:33.38 | Tene | Also, the sizes of black hole that could be created are much to small to have essentially any chance of encountering any matter to absorb within, as I recall, several years. The evaporation time, on the other hand, is measured in femtoseconds. |
| 19:33.39 | *** join/#utah shalkie (n=user@dhcp172.openinternet.gurulabs.com) |
| 19:33.43 | elg | i bet microscopic black holes would have an effect not unlike liposuction when used properly |
| 19:34.00 | sjansen | On the other hand, if it does create a black hole and Hawking's was wrong... well, at least we won't have to listen to any more political ads. |
| 19:34.06 | dataw0lf | what're you saying? We send Rosie O'Donnell to the LHC? |
| 19:34.36 | Jayce^ | dataw0lf, we'd have to create a whole lot more holes in that case |
| 19:34.51 | dataw0lf | haha |
| 19:34.58 | dataw0lf | point. |
| 19:35.17 | Jayce^ | I just expect we'll finally get to see Buckaroo Banzai get proven correct |
| 19:35.21 | levi | sjansen: Even if it did create a stable black hole, they'd be harmless according to that document. |
| 19:36.08 | levi | Forget black holes, though. I want a stable wormhole. |
| 19:36.18 | sjansen | Black hole? Harmless? |
| 19:36.20 | *** join/#utah mrpull (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 19:36.30 | sjansen | levi is a shill for Big Black Hole! |
| 19:36.49 | levi | No, more like Extremely Tiny Black Hole. |
| 19:36.58 | sjansen | levi is part of the vast black hole conspiracy! |
| 19:37.16 | sjansen | Why aren't we hearing more about this from the MSM? |
| 19:37.30 | sjansen | The MSM is the pocket of Big Black Hole! |
| 19:38.17 | sjansen | We're all doomed. Buy your guns people! (Or stock up on tofu and yoga videos if you swing that way instead.) |
| 19:40.29 | unum | I really wouldn't think a gun would a great defense against a black hole |
| 19:41.00 | unum | there I go being contrary again |
| 19:41.43 | elg | unless it's a white gun |
| 19:41.58 | levi | There you go bringing race into it. |
| 19:41.59 | elg | loads his white bump gun |
| 19:42.46 | elg | heh. reminds me of that one link where someone wanted to legistlate they call it white hole because black hole was racist |
| 19:44.54 | unum | anyone know what time it is in beijing? |
| 19:45.21 | unum | http://beijing.sports.pressakey.net/schedule.php I need to know when it's 10am tomorrow morning |
| 19:45.45 | mrpull | it's 3:45 AM tomorrow morning |
| 19:45.54 | unum | that's unfortunate..... |
| 19:46.18 | unum | oh wait I misunderstood you |
| 19:46.27 | unum | that works out alright |
| 19:46.28 | mrpull | UTC+8 |
| 19:46.32 | unum | the game start at 8pm |
| 19:46.55 | unum | we beat brazil after being beat by the commies(both china and canada) |
| 19:47.06 | unum | like the movie candidain bacon |
| 19:47.14 | levi | Canada is communist now? |
| 19:47.17 | mrpull | mountain daylight is UTC-6 |
| 19:47.27 | unum | levi: haven't you seen the movie? |
| 19:47.30 | mrpull | so 14 hours right? |
| 19:47.34 | levi | unum: Nope. |
| 19:47.48 | unum | the have FREE COLLEGE!!!! |
| 19:47.55 | unum | that's communism right there |
| 19:50.32 | mrpull | unum: is there video of any of the murderball matches? |
| 19:50.41 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 19:53.01 | unum | mrpull: I haven't been able to find any from this years matches but you can find past ones on youtube |
| 19:53.20 | unum | the national tournment was held in spanish fork in june |
| 19:54.13 | mrpull | that was probably cool. |
| 19:55.11 | unum | ya it was |
| 19:55.11 | elg | unum: it's 12 hours off eastern time |
| 19:55.25 | elg | so tis almost 4 |
| 19:55.33 | unum | elg: thanks |
| 19:56.22 | levi | http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92136549 |
| 19:57.53 | *** join/#utah {-} (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 19:58.00 | {-} | ibot: ping |
| 19:58.00 | ibot | ~pong |
| 19:58.50 | *** join/#utah romanovic (i=romanovi@wireless566.wireless.utah.edu) |
| 20:04.13 | unum | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5460620898408325198&hl=en <-goalball video |
| 20:05.47 | mrpull | unum: that is very cool. different from what I expected (in a good way) |
| 20:07.26 | mrpull | I was thinking bigger playing area and a waterpolo style pass and shoot |
| 20:08.26 | unum | number 8(the one in the middle) is from riverton |
| 20:08.49 | mrpull | that ball doesn't bounce much |
| 20:09.04 | elg | oops, sjansen just got swallowed by a black hole |
| 20:10.06 | unum | mrpull: no, it's designed not too. if you're strong enough you can balance, but they passed a rule against bouncing it too much |
| 20:11.21 | unum | the rule is actually about far it can bounce |
| 20:13.31 | unum | they're pushing it a lot in this game. I don't think I'm actually capable of breaking the rule(I can't throw hard enough) |
| 20:14.50 | unum | btw it hurts to stop the ball with the bottom of my shoe when thrown by a member of the usa men's team |
| 20:15.51 | tensai | elg: nah. he went through a worm hole and came out as {-} |
| 20:20.13 | goozbach | spagettification! oh noes! |
| 20:20.47 | tensai | Tene: this is a good explanation. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/03/29/no-the-lhc-wont-destroy-the-earth/ |
| 20:21.33 | Tene | unum: balance what on what? |
| 20:22.04 | unum | Tene: oops, s/balance/bounce |
| 20:22.08 | Tene | ah |
| 20:22.20 | mrpull | unum: I assume you play blindfolded? |
| 20:24.24 | mrpull | where do I buy some of this sulphur hexafluoride? |
| 20:24.25 | mrpull | http://www.boingboing.net/2008/09/09/adam-savage-inhales.html |
| 20:26.34 | mrpull | doh... maybe not. I guess it could kill me if I messed with my kids too much. |
| 20:32.52 | Jayce^ | mrpull, that's awesome |
| 20:33.46 | mrpull | I get a kick out of mythbusters... sure it isn't pure science, but they often blow stuff up in hi def slow motion and that is good enough for me. |
| 20:36.57 | goozbach | hi-def slow-motion explosions == teh fnu! |
| 20:37.25 | dataw0lf | FNU: FNU not Unix |
| 20:37.38 | unum | I hate my users |
| 20:37.42 | unum | mrpull: correct |
| 20:38.17 | unum | sulpuher hexafluoride can be hard to get out of your lungs |
| 20:38.28 | unum | sulphur |
| 20:38.51 | mrpull | I kinda crush on Kari Byron too... |
| 20:39.27 | levi | Yay, my work laptop has a new hard drive. |
| 20:48.34 | *** join/#utah markl_ (n=mark@c-24-10-191-137.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:54.32 | levi | 'FNU' is a fun sound. |
| 20:55.20 | jalbretsen | I'm really hoping that the LHC can start confirming some of the predictions of string theory, or at least start to head string theory in the right direction |
| 20:55.28 | jalbretsen | s/of/by |
| 20:55.34 | *** join/#utah hatchmt_ (n=mhatch_@137.65.53.172) |
| 20:56.22 | levi | It would be nice to have some sort of evidence to say whether they're barking up the wrong tree or not. |
| 20:56.44 | jalbretsen | yes, although one can argue that gravity is a prediction of string theory, I think that works |
| 20:57.01 | jalbretsen | gravity works that is |
| 20:57.08 | levi | Well, of course it matches the things we can already see experimentally. |
| 20:58.26 | levi | The question is whether we can see anything it predicts that we haven't seen already. |
| 20:58.38 | levi | Or whether we see anything that contradicts it. |
| 20:59.26 | levi | Sucks to be this woman: http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-09-09-runner-has-both-legs-amputated-after-ultramarathon |
| 20:59.38 | Tene | Heh, I'm reading some of fozz's old code. |
| 20:59.57 | levi | Any references to Glenn Beck? ;) |
| 21:01.00 | Tene | Not yet. |
| 21:02.31 | goozbach | how old? |
| 21:02.47 | goozbach | it may be prior to fozz's beck period |
| 21:03.28 | harleypig | gravity kills |
| 21:03.30 | goozbach | it may be referenced to rush(the talk show host, or the band) or maybe porcupine tree(the band) |
| 21:04.22 | Jayce^ | harleypig, not normally it doesn't.. deceleration does |
| 21:04.41 | harleypig | feh ... that's like saying a gun doesn't kill ... the bullet does. |
| 21:05.02 | levi | gravity saves lives! |
| 21:05.27 | levi | What kind of a life could you live if you were always floating off into space? |
| 21:05.42 | Jayce^ | harleypig, that normally is the case... unless you pistol-whip :) |
| 21:05.43 | harleypig | well, I wouldn't have to worry about my weight |
| 21:06.16 | Jayce^ | harleypig draws others into his orbit |
| 21:06.31 | Jayce^ | explains what kept happening to seth's chair |
| 21:06.34 | harleypig | Nah ... I make others orbit me |
| 21:06.38 | harleypig | :D |
| 21:09.52 | Tene | the comments say Copyright 2004,2005 |
| 21:11.14 | mrpull | itunes 8 seems a little faster on this vista machine |
| 21:11.23 | mrpull | and the last.fm client still works |
| 21:11.31 | mrpull | genius hasn't impressed me yet |
| 21:12.02 | tristanbob_ | how do you install a .deb package including dependancies? |
| 21:14.19 | harleypig | I need a siesta |
| 21:14.34 | harleypig | tristanbob: First you take a chicken ... |
| 21:17.05 | mrpull | tristanbob_: I assume the .deb isn't in a repository somewhere else? |
| 21:17.15 | tristanbob_ | nope |
| 21:17.38 | tristanbob_ | mrpull, the dependencies are in the repos |
| 21:18.05 | tristanbob_ | does dpkg resolve those? if not, can I use apt-get to install this package |
| 21:18.11 | mrpull | I seem to recall a way to use dpkg to install the deb and ignore the deps |
| 21:18.25 | mrpull | then run aptitude with a flag that then fixes the deps |
| 21:18.31 | mrpull | not something I'd do on a production machine |
| 21:18.59 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-f5f0817277f8e473) |
| 21:18.59 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 21:19.03 | harleypig | you could just run dpkg and install the dependencies that it says it needs |
| 21:19.08 | harleypig | lather, rinse, repeat |
| 21:19.44 | romanovic | isn't there just a flag to force all dependencies to install |
| 21:19.48 | mrpull | harleypig is going in the same direction I was thinking |
| 21:20.07 | tristanbob_ | mrpull, I will try aptitude |
| 21:22.07 | harleypig | aptitude -D pkgname I think. |
| 21:25.28 | harleypig | romanovic: I don't think so. |
| 21:25.31 | harleypig | oh ... he left |
| 21:27.46 | harleypig | anyone got any recomendations for a twitter client? I was using Twit Line for firefox ... but I find that less than useful. |
| 21:27.55 | harleypig | I'm currently using gtwitter, but that's not that good either. |
| 21:28.29 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@h-68-165-165-210.mclnva23.covad.net) |
| 21:28.49 | harleypig | and people with red beards are just ... |
| 21:28.53 | harleypig | oh, hi redbeard2 |
| 21:29.33 | mrpull | harleypig: tweetdeck is pretty cool |
| 21:29.53 | mrpull | it's an adobe air app so that may be a deal breaker for you |
| 21:30.00 | harleypig | can I use air on linux? |
| 21:30.16 | mrpull | adobe says you can |
| 21:30.19 | mrpull | I haven't tried it |
| 21:35.23 | Jayce^ | twitterfox |
| 21:36.04 | mrpull | twitterfox is a good choice too. works anywhere firefox does :) |
| 21:36.53 | ^Migs^ | I've had limited success with Air on Linux. Works for some, not for others. |
| 21:36.55 | ^Migs^ | Can't get it to work with Twhirl |
| 21:37.10 | ^Migs^ | Twitbin for Firefox is good, too |
| 21:37.36 | harleypig | I've had problems with twitbin ... |
| 21:37.50 | harleypig | I'll give twhirl a try. |
| 21:37.53 | harleypig | thx |
| 21:39.57 | mrpull | harleypig: you could also check out twyt |
| 21:40.05 | mrpull | command line only twittering |
| 21:40.28 | mrpull | and a nice python library for making it do whatever you want |
| 21:43.36 | Jayce^ | http://www.onemotion.com/flash/spider/ |
| 21:43.40 | Jayce^ | shudders |
| 21:43.46 | harleypig | mrpull: well, if I wanted to do that, I'd go for tytter a perl based command line client. |
| 21:45.37 | eggyknap | So I gather from things heard at UTOSC that Novell gives some of its employees time to work on OSS projects of their choice. Is that true, and if so can someone point me to details? |
| 21:49.20 | harleypig | aghhh ... twhirl is an air app too. |
| 21:52.28 | harleypig | well, twitfox isn't making a good showing. |
| 21:52.52 | harleypig | I should probably buckle down and just get it working in irssi. |
| 21:53.01 | Jayce^ | what isn't working with twitterfox? |
| 21:53.20 | harleypig | everything ... |
| 21:53.36 | harleypig | the little 't' is blue, but nothing is allowing me to enter anything |
| 21:54.34 | bonez46 | how do I check out which server, i.e, apache, or iis (wahtever microsoft's is called) or other is running a web site? |
| 21:55.01 | unum | netcraft |
| 21:55.27 | unum | though I'm sure there are easier ways(like typing in a non-existant file{ |
| 21:55.37 | unum | you could alse use nmap |
| 21:55.50 | bonez46 | nmap, eh? |
| 21:56.45 | unum | though be away it violates your comcast agreement |
| 21:56.47 | unum | :P |
| 21:57.31 | harleypig | I *did* enter my password correctly damnit! |
| 21:57.54 | unum | s/away/aware |
| 21:58.03 | unum | I shouldn't be doing *anything* today |
| 21:59.13 | bonez46 | I hit netcraft.. and it doesn't show which server is running |
| 21:59.36 | Jayce^ | ~lart harleypig's "problems" |
| 21:59.36 | ibot | chops harleypig's "problems" in half with a free Solaris 7 CD |
| 22:01.03 | {-} | bonez46: According to international treaties signed after the browser wars of the late 90's, checking what server a site is using could get your browsing license rejected. |
| 22:01.04 | bonez46 | it doesn't show which server runs.. I know I have seen that before...just can't find that resource now |
| 22:01.23 | bonez46 | what the hell? |
| 22:02.56 | harleypig | ~lart Jayce^ just because |
| 22:02.56 | ibot | sends a legion of lawyers after Jayce^ just because's head |
| 22:03.03 | harleypig | err ... |
| 22:03.15 | bonez46 | In the August 2008 survey we received responses from 176,748,506 sites. This month's overall growth of 1.3 million sites reflects Apache's growth of 1.2 million and Google's gain of half a million sites, but a loss of 760 thousand sites using Microsoft IIS. |
| 22:03.43 | bonez46 | they report that, in written form, but I want it if I enter foo.bar I want to see foo.bar is running apache version x.y.z... |
| 22:24.16 | unum | bonez46: in the upper left corner of the main page it says "What's that site running" and then it has an input box |
| 22:37.39 | elg | levi: I hope finishing the race was worth it to her |
| 22:38.46 | levi | Now that I've got the laptop fixed, I'm going to try Vista on it to see how I like it on not-quite-new hardware. |
| 22:39.38 | levi | But meanwhile I'm installing Ubuntu. |
| 22:40.29 | bonez46 | unum: yeah? on the netcraft site? |
| 22:40.37 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=jphall@h-68-165-165-210.mclnva23.covad.net) |
| 22:41.07 | elg | i'm too lazy to look at the logs, but I have a sneaky suspicion my myth expired some of my olympic recordings that I had yet to watch |
| 22:41.40 | elg | or maybe it just failed to record them for whatever reason. I think it should not have expired them because there are other things, watched things, that should have gone first |
| 22:41.49 | elg | but I distrust the myth developers enough to not be sure. :) |
| 22:42.07 | elg | but hey, I got all the swimming. the rest is just gravy |
| 22:42.12 | bonez46 | unum: ok, I type in 'www.microsoft.com' and you show me.. where on the report page, that it lists IIS or apache, or any other server this is at 'www.netcraft.com' |
| 22:44.53 | elg | bonez46: try licking on the uptime graph |
| 22:44.59 | bonez46 | unum? well, where does that netcraft report list the server used? |
| 22:45.09 | harleypig | elg: licking?! |
| 22:45.17 | Tene | Tasty! |
| 22:45.19 | elg | lickable graphs! |
| 22:45.19 | bonez46 | try licking it, eh? is it a scratch n sniff.... my monitor doesn't have that feature installed |
| 22:45.21 | harleypig | heh |
| 22:45.22 | RyanE | yeah, it's a new point and lick interface. |
| 22:45.37 | RyanE | you have to point with your tongue, obviously. |
| 22:45.44 | harleypig | you gotta watch your typos in here ... |
| 22:45.54 | elg | at least I didn't say lick on harleypig.com |
| 22:45.57 | bonez46 | thanks.. that's what I wanted..just wish netcraft would show it on the main page instead |
| 22:46.13 | bonez46 | ewwww... lick a pig? |
| 22:46.30 | elg | ~lick harleytoad.com |
| 22:46.30 | ibot | ACTION licks harleytoad.com *SHLUUURRRRPPP* |
| 22:47.14 | elg | i disagree. death by micro black holes would be better than lorne greene |
| 22:50.01 | bonez46 | wait.. does the Comic Book Guy on the Simpson's get his expression from Battlestar Galactica? |
| 23:01.19 | bonez46 | ??? |
| 23:03.11 | unum | bonez46: I forgot it has to be a site they have registered. |
| 23:03.30 | unum | you could just telnet and type helo |
| 23:05.57 | unum | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:06.08 | unum | would probably be the "best" way though |
| 23:09.32 | bonez46 | ok... |
| 23:09.36 | bonez46 | thanks unum |
| 23:09.38 | unum | ? |
| 23:27.56 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=utahcon@67-41-169-143.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:39.51 | *** join/#utah jon___ (n=jon@dsl-216-128-233-19.teton.id.tetontel.com) |
| 23:54.52 | eightyeight | i like how i try to help someone with their blog, and my comment gets removed |
| 23:55.45 | eightyeight | i guess they're okay with advertising software piracy on a free software blog. i for one wouldn't touch that topic with a 10' pole |