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| 01:38.34 | ZuckusFill | anybody really in here? |
| 01:38.46 | ZuckusFill | I have some questions |
| 01:40.39 | ZuckusFill | there used to be a Linux shop on center street in Provo, I stopped by there today and it was closed and all ripped up inside, does anyone know what happened to it? Did he move or go out of business? |
| 01:48.32 | Sargun_Screen | 7yj |
| 01:48.34 | Sargun_Screen | h9tr |
| 01:48.35 | Sargun_Screen | nt |
| 01:48.37 | Sargun_Screen | bit reallly |
| 01:48.39 | Sargun_Screen | bah |
| 01:48.41 | Sargun_Screen | not really |
| 01:48.45 | Sargun_Screen | anyone here |
| 01:48.49 | Sargun_Screen | we're just clones |
| 01:49.11 | ZuckusFill | there used to be a Linux shop on center street in Provo, I stopped by there today and it was closed and all ripped up inside, does anyone know what happened to it? Did he move or go out of business? |
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| 01:58.09 | ZuckusFill | anybody know? |
| 01:59.49 | levi | A Linux shop? What product/service would they provide? |
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| 02:15.13 | Sargun_Screen | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:22.59 | ZuckusFill | he sold parts, and computers, and routers, and tech support, and linux paraphenalia etc. |
| 02:23.07 | ZuckusFill | anybody know what happened to him? |
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| 02:34.54 | Sargun_Screen | he went out of business? |
| 02:44.01 | levi | ZuckusFill: He must have realized that there's not enough money in Linux parts/support to run a small business. |
| 02:48.55 | Sargun_Screen | or he went bankrupt |
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| 02:54.03 | levi | Sargun_Screen: That's just a bit more painful way to make that realization. |
| 02:54.20 | levi | ted.com is awesome. |
| 02:54.43 | ZuckusFill | well |
| 02:54.51 | ZuckusFill | he did windows stuff too I guess |
| 02:55.14 | ZuckusFill | we just called it the linux shop, do any of you guys even know what I'm talking about? |
| 02:55.28 | levi | Sorry, I haven't lived in that area for a long time. |
| 02:55.36 | ZuckusFill | yeah |
| 02:56.01 | levi | But small businesses tend to fail. I think small computer businesses are particularly difficult. |
| 02:56.41 | Sargun_Screen | we? |
| 02:56.42 | ZuckusFill | oh well, I just had a lot of questions for him |
| 02:56.50 | Sargun_Screen | ZuckusFill: like |
| 02:56.53 | ZuckusFill | me and my buddies |
| 02:57.22 | ZuckusFill | well, I'm currently trying to make the switch from OSX to Linux |
| 02:57.32 | Sargun_Screen | yes.... |
| 02:57.39 | *** join/#utah dilvie (n=chatzill@c-67-166-126-92.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:57.55 | Sargun_Screen | go on..... |
| 02:58.23 | levi | Why are you trying to make the switch from OS X to Linux? |
| 02:58.28 | ZuckusFill | you guys know anything about video editing or at least capturing mini DV in Linux |
| 02:58.46 | ZuckusFill | price, Freedom, and being sick of Apples latest decisions |
| 02:59.51 | Sargun_Screen | oh, forget it. |
| 03:00.09 | ZuckusFill | no way to capture mini DV? |
| 03:01.53 | ZuckusFill | ?? |
| 03:02.21 | Sargun_Screen | i did it before |
| 03:02.26 | Sargun_Screen | it was painful though |
| 03:02.47 | jsmith | Capturing the mini-dv isn't hard |
| 03:02.51 | jsmith | It's editing it that can be a pain |
| 03:03.04 | ZuckusFill | well |
| 03:03.11 | ZuckusFill | I don't really need to edit |
| 03:03.23 | ZuckusFill | what program did you capture with? |
| 03:03.31 | Sargun_Screen | jsmith: i did it a few years ago |
| 03:03.48 | Sargun_Screen | i could only capture a few minutess of video at a time |
| 03:04.17 | Sargun_Screen | i ended up getting a 1394 card |
| 03:04.28 | Sargun_Screen | and using dv1394 mode |
| 03:04.51 | ZuckusFill | I have firewire 400 on it |
| 03:04.56 | ZuckusFill | my ubuntu box |
| 03:04.58 | ZuckusFill | kino? |
| 03:05.01 | ZuckusFill | or dvgrab |
| 03:05.03 | ZuckusFill | ? |
| 03:05.03 | Sargun_Screen | neato |
| 03:05.09 | Sargun_Screen | no idea |
| 03:05.16 | Sargun_Screen | run linux in a vm |
| 03:05.19 | Sargun_Screen | and do usb |
| 03:05.24 | Sargun_Screen | err |
| 03:05.29 | Sargun_Screen | windows in a vm |
| 03:05.57 | jsmith | I used dvgrab |
| 03:06.04 | Sargun_Screen | you have a mbp |
| 03:06.58 | ZuckusFill | well |
| 03:07.20 | ZuckusFill | I think I can make kino work, I just wondered if anyone could give me any pointers |
| 03:07.26 | jsmith | Sargun_Screen: Yes, I have an mbp, but I'm always in Linux... and last I tried this, I was on my PowerBook G4 |
| 03:07.43 | ZuckusFill | won't use windows, I'm not going to leave the Mac fold just to start using microsoft products |
| 03:09.11 | Sargun_Screen | hey, don't diss windows. |
| 03:09.23 | Sargun_Screen | jsmith: i was askin ZuckusFill |
| 03:09.53 | ZuckusFill | I didn't, I just said I won't use it, besides why not diss windows? |
| 03:12.31 | ZuckusFill | ?? |
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| 03:17.19 | ZuckusFill | sorry, pidgin died, I'm back what'd I miss? |
| 03:17.36 | Sargun_Screen | windows is pretty neat |
| 03:17.50 | Sargun_Screen | have you used windows xp? |
| 03:18.12 | ZuckusFill | lol, of course, who hasn't |
| 03:18.38 | ZuckusFill | wait, you are joking right? it's hard to tell with just text chat |
| 03:19.00 | Sargun_Screen | no, i'm serious |
| 03:19.06 | ZuckusFill | oh |
| 03:19.09 | ZuckusFill | ok |
| 03:19.11 | Sargun_Screen | windows is really good for a lot of things |
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| 03:19.17 | Sargun_Screen | they bring competition the market |
| 03:19.26 | Sargun_Screen | they keep stupid people out of my fae |
| 03:19.28 | Sargun_Screen | gafacve |
| 03:19.29 | Sargun_Screen | face |
| 03:19.33 | ZuckusFill | no they kill competition, someones gotta bring it to them |
| 03:20.08 | Sargun_Screen | not exactly |
| 03:20.14 | Sargun_Screen | look at novelll |
| 03:20.29 | ZuckusFill | anyway, if I wanted to be controlled, pay for software, and have no software freedom, I'd stick with my mac, it kills windows |
| 03:20.55 | Sargun_Screen | i'd rather go back to windows |
| 03:20.58 | ZuckusFill | but anyway, I'm clearly in the wrong room, see ya |
| 03:21.01 | Sargun_Screen | than the mac |
| 03:21.13 | Sargun_Screen | uhm... ok. |
| 03:21.21 | Sargun_Screen | loves his gentoo though |
| 03:29.16 | levi | Ooh, paying for software. How downright un-American. |
| 03:30.55 | Sargun_Screen | levi: what does that have to do with anything |
| 03:32.24 | levi | Sargun_Screen: What does anything have to do with anything else? |
| 03:32.43 | Sargun_Screen | maybe something. |
| 03:33.33 | levi | It was simply a disparaging remark against the attitude that software should be free. |
| 03:34.50 | Sargun_Screen | as in beer |
| 03:35.15 | rsimpkins | Argggh. Microsoft, oh how I hate thee. |
| 03:35.36 | rsimpkins | Thou art the slime between mine toes. |
| 03:36.41 | levi | Sargun_Screen: Yes, in that particular disparaging remark. |
| 03:36.58 | levi | I have plenty of disparaging remarks for the Free Software Foundtion too, though. |
| 03:37.15 | Sargun_Screen | rsimpkins: would you rather run microsoft software on a system or apple software |
| 03:37.18 | Sargun_Screen | better yet |
| 03:37.29 | Sargun_Screen | would you rather run os x |
| 03:37.36 | Sargun_Screen | or windows on a server |
| 03:37.57 | Sargun_Screen | levi: the fsf has its...odditie |
| 03:38.10 | Sargun_Screen | rsimpkins: what do you have against microsoft |
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| 03:41.20 | nick125 | installs Microsoft Windows Vista Premium Home Professional edition on Sargun_Screen's computer |
| 03:41.46 | Sargun_Screen | ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, nooooo |
| 03:42.00 | nick125 | Sargun_Screen: What's wrong? What do you have against Microsoft? |
| 03:43.29 | rsimpkins | Microsoft does not offer what I want. They make it, they just don't sell it. So, I'm going some place else. |
| 03:43.36 | Sargun_Screen | steve ballmer -> funny sweaty guy |
| 03:44.02 | Sargun_Screen | ok. |
| 03:44.05 | nick125 | Sargun_Screen: Developers, Developers, Developers! |
| 03:44.12 | Sargun_Screen | uhm, windows vista sucks |
| 03:44.26 | Sargun_Screen | its a resource hog, slow, expensive |
| 03:45.47 | Sargun_Screen | they cell crappy bad software |
| 03:45.51 | Sargun_Screen | to people |
| 03:46.06 | Sargun_Screen | they limit what i can do on and with thei software |
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| 03:55.01 | ZuckusFill | I'm back now that some MS haters are in the room |
| 03:55.31 | ZuckusFill | lol |
| 03:56.36 | rsimpkins | I don't hate microsoft. I'm frustrated that they hate me. |
| 03:56.51 | rsimpkins | What did I ever do to them but give them a pile of cash? |
| 03:56.53 | levi | rsimpkins: What is it that they make that they won't sell to you? |
| 03:57.19 | rsimpkins | levi: Just excel 2007. That's it. That is all I want. Not a package, just the standalone app. |
| 03:57.44 | rsimpkins | Why on earth can they not sell just that piece to me? There is no good reason. |
| 03:59.02 | levi | They do offer that, actually. It's just that it's the same price as the whole Office package, so they package them together. :P |
| 03:59.24 | rsimpkins | well, there ya go. |
| 03:59.53 | rsimpkins | I'm going to try OOo 3 beta2 to see if it can open this document. |
| 03:59.59 | levi | Just buy the $99 version of Office and only install Excel. |
| 04:00.20 | rsimpkins | yes, because I love spending 100 dollars just to view a silly document. |
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| 04:01.35 | levi | Not just $100, you forgot to factor in the price of the computer and OS! |
| 04:02.32 | rsimpkins | the hardware is sort of a given, but yes - I did not include the OS. |
| 04:02.57 | rsimpkins | moment of truth - can ooo3 open xlsx docs? |
| 04:03.27 | levi | Well, for most people, having Office installed is a given. |
| 04:03.38 | jsmith | rsimpkins: acrobat.com will open it for free, and export to various other formats |
| 04:03.51 | jsmith | throws out a random idea |
| 04:03.56 | rsimpkins | Answer: partially. |
| 04:04.08 | rsimpkins | jsmith: Thanks, i'll take a look. |
| 04:04.41 | rsimpkins | none of the conditional formatting is in place. no charts work. |
| 04:05.09 | rsimpkins | will have to try acrobat.com |
| 04:05.40 | levi | What is this document for, anyway? |
| 04:06.08 | rsimpkins | levi: Work. |
| 04:06.37 | high_roller | this headline strikes me as being funny: Microsoft Launches Pro-Vista Ad Campaign |
| 04:06.40 | jsmith | rsimpkins: What, you can't rdesktop into a box with Office on it? |
| 04:06.48 | rsimpkins | I guess I'll just have to wait to use it. Fortunatly they have no problem paying the MS tax at work. |
| 04:06.54 | high_roller | what would they say MS launches anti-vista campaign |
| 04:06.59 | rsimpkins | jsmith: Not at this moment, no. |
| 04:07.03 | jsmith | rsimpkins: I know there's a box in the lab that I used to use for that very purpose |
| 04:07.11 | rsimpkins | jsmith: yes, not updated with what I need. :( |
| 04:07.12 | jsmith | or, there was two years ago |
| 04:07.32 | rsimpkins | jsmith: I don't think that box has been touched for 4 years. |
| 04:07.53 | levi | I completely fail to see any fault of Microsoft's in this scenario. |
| 04:07.53 | Sargun_Screen | We have boxes like that. |
| 04:08.19 | rsimpkins | levi: It isnt' their fault, they just aren't helping me. |
| 04:09.25 | rsimpkins | ooo3 at least lets me view the numbers. good enough for tonight. |
| 04:09.48 | Sargun_Screen | you installed oo.org 3? |
| 04:09.49 | Sargun_Screen | whoa |
| 04:09.54 | Sargun_Screen | cool. |
| 04:09.58 | nick125 | anything new? |
| 04:10.08 | nick125 | hasn't kept up with OO.o development |
| 04:10.34 | rsimpkins | nick125: Yes, xlsx support. Microsofts whacky XML doc format. embrace. extend. extinguish. |
| 04:11.42 | Sargun_Screen | neato. |
| 04:14.12 | maquis | hopes she doesn't break anything too badly... |
| 04:14.30 | maquis | installed debian on my olpc... now running apt-get dist-upgrade.. |
| 04:16.24 | Sargun_Screen | hehe |
| 04:16.33 | Sargun_Screen | I used to OLPC for most of today |
| 04:16.37 | Sargun_Screen | my hands are cramped. |
| 04:16.44 | levi | rsimpkins: What's Microsoft extending and extinguishing in this case? The concept of using XML as a document format? That doesn't make any sense. |
| 04:16.56 | Sargun_Screen | My hands are about as big as most people's heads |
| 04:17.07 | fozzmoo | Sure they are, Sargun_Screen. |
| 04:18.49 | levi | fozzmoo: I tried to leave another comment on your blog in response to your response to my comment, but your captcha must time out or something, and I didn't care enough to re-enter it. |
| 04:18.59 | fozzmoo | Dang. |
| 04:23.57 | levi | The gist of it was that I was objecting to the way you structured your blog entry. Subject: 'Obama shows his true colors...' First paragraph: '... hypocrisy, lies, just all-out lack of respect...' while the only example of anything Obama did was a (in my mind, at least) fairly legitimate comparison of resume details. |
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| 04:26.55 | levi | When it comes down to it, though, anyone who's ever done any interviewing will see how utterly ridiculous all the 'experience' posturing and resume padding is. |
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| 04:40.31 | maquis | resume padding is bad |
| 04:44.49 | Sargun_Screen | esume padding? |
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| 05:00.41 | levi | Sargun_Screen: Specifically, the inflating of Sarah Palin's experience to make her sound so much more experienced than Obama that, if you use the same standards, also make her sound so much more experienced than McCain. |
| 05:09.09 | jsmith | levi: Some might argue that in some ways, she is :-p |
| 05:23.08 | Sargun_Screen | oh |
| 05:23.24 | Sargun_Screen | Oh, bah. I wasn't reading that right |
| 05:23.38 | Sargun_Screen | What's wrong with resume padding in a non-politcal situation? |
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| 05:35.05 | fozzmoo | I think Sarah Palin did an extraordinary job of pointing out key performance indicators that differ between her and Obama. |
| 05:35.15 | fozzmoo | That is, during her Wed. evening speech. |
| 05:35.37 | fozzmoo | She has more executive experience than any of the other presidential or vice presidential candidates. |
| 05:35.45 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Are you voting republican? |
| 05:36.00 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I wasn't going to... but now, I probably will. |
| 05:36.11 | Sargun_Screen | ok.... |
| 05:36.38 | fozzmoo | When I praised McCain's decision choosing Palin, a couple people said I was just drinking KoolAid... |
| 05:36.52 | fozzmoo | The truth, however, is that I've known about Palin for about 8 months. |
| 05:37.02 | fozzmoo | She's very remarkable... and very conservative. |
| 05:37.10 | nick125 | What experience does she have? |
| 05:37.21 | fozzmoo | She's currently the governor of Alaska. |
| 05:37.26 | Sargun_Screen | you want to be bring women's rights to what they were in the 1930s |
| 05:37.32 | Sargun_Screen | What happens in Alaska? |
| 05:37.44 | fozzmoo | Prior to that she was a mayor. |
| 05:37.54 | Sargun_Screen | So? |
| 05:37.55 | nick125 | ...of a town with ~6,000 people. |
| 05:38.06 | nick125 | (Was it 6k or 9k, I can't remember) |
| 05:38.07 | fozzmoo | Alaska was ripe with corruption because of previous administrations' dirty deals with oil companies. |
| 05:38.17 | Sargun_Screen | Alaska is still ripe with corruption. |
| 05:38.42 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: what women's rights do you think are going to disappear, out of curiosity? |
| 05:38.42 | fozzmoo | She broke an oil company monopoly and insisted on competition. |
| 05:38.50 | fozzmoo | maquis: That was my question. |
| 05:38.55 | maquis | has not been following the election very carefully |
| 05:39.10 | fozzmoo | maquis: It just got real interesting... 8 days ago. |
| 05:39.12 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: Right to an abortion, right to birth control. |
| 05:39.21 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: heh heh. |
| 05:39.23 | fozzmoo | You're hilarious. |
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| 05:39.36 | fozzmoo | The right to birth control isn't really regulated by the federal government. |
| 05:39.36 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: the first of those, i definitely do not believe is a right |
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| 05:39.55 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: even in case of rape? |
| 05:40.07 | Sargun_Screen | you would have a rapist's baby? |
| 05:40.16 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I think you're making a lot of assumptions about Sarah Palin's stance on the issue. |
| 05:40.19 | Sargun_Screen | you would carry the baby of the man who raped you for 9 months? |
| 05:40.23 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: it's still a human child |
| 05:40.33 | Sargun_Screen | She'll try her hardest to overturn Roe v Wade |
| 05:40.39 | fozzmoo | Moreover - it's really in the hands of the Supreme Court and they haven't chosen to hear a case that woudl overturn Roe v Wade. |
| 05:40.43 | Jacolyte | maquis: no, it's an internal organ until it's living and breathing independently |
| 05:40.46 | fozzmoo | It's not really her call. |
| 05:40.56 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: that would push it down the state. |
| 05:41.05 | Sargun_Screen | she can try... |
| 05:41.23 | nick125 | And try she would. |
| 05:41.23 | maquis | Jacolyte: from what i've seen, i's a good bit more than that |
| 05:41.26 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: you would have your appendix removed, right? |
| 05:41.41 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: a fetus is very different from an appendix |
| 05:41.47 | Jacolyte | maquis: then why don't we give fetuses names? why don't we have funerals for miscarriages? does every ejaculation deserve a name? |
| 05:42.10 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Obviously, you are not a parent who has dealt with a miscarriage. |
| 05:42.13 | Sargun_Screen | Jacolyte: an ejaculation is a bunch of half-fetuses. |
| 05:42.26 | fozzmoo | Gosh, guys, go read a biology book. |
| 05:42.39 | fozzmoo | You guys sound almost PRO-abortion. |
| 05:42.49 | fozzmoo | Is anyone really PRO-abortion? |
| 05:42.50 | lakshmi | i am |
| 05:43.01 | fozzmoo | You're PRO-abortion? You want to see more of it? |
| 05:43.07 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Did you know in several studies crime went down a decade later as abortions went up. |
| 05:43.08 | fozzmoo | Everyone, have abortions? |
| 05:43.08 | nick125 | But should the Government be trying to enforce ethics? |
| 05:43.08 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: and I probably never will be a parent that has to deal with miscarriage, because I plan on adopting. |
| 05:43.19 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Yes, I'm aware of that. I read that book. |
| 05:43.23 | lakshmi | i see no reason to bring a kid into the world if you don't have the proper situation to care ofor it |
| 05:43.30 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: If people had once less child we'd be in a much better situation right now. |
| 05:43.31 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: whose going to feed and clothe all these unwanted children, you? |
| 05:43.34 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: I agree with you completely. |
| 05:43.44 | maquis | Jacolyte: there's plenty of people who want those children |
| 05:43.51 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: do you really want to pay for these children with YOUR tax money? |
| 05:43.55 | maquis | i have known people who've spent *years* on adoption waiting lists |
| 05:43.59 | lakshmi | and if some girl gets raped and then is forced to keep the kid even though she cant care for it ? |
| 05:44.04 | lakshmi | is that fair on the mother or the kid |
| 05:44.09 | fozzmoo | case in point, the church I belong to has an amazing program for providing caring parents for children born in those situations. |
| 05:44.11 | maquis | begging and praying that they might find a child to adopt |
| 05:44.25 | fozzmoo | Not the state, but a church. That's the way it shoudl be done. |
| 05:44.26 | lakshmi | and dont say you can go and give them up for adoption |
| 05:44.34 | maquis | lakshmi: why not? |
| 05:44.39 | Jacolyte | maquis: not every unfit parent gives their kid up for adoption ;) |
| 05:44.40 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: No, that's called "taking responsibility for your actions." |
| 05:44.43 | lakshmi | all thats going to do is have a whole bunch more of poor lonely sad kids in adoption homes |
| 05:44.48 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: will your church support the tens of thousands of rape victims in the US? |
| 05:45.08 | lakshmi | plus who funds all of these places to give your kids up for adoption |
| 05:45.16 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Rape is the woman's fault now? |
| 05:45.16 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Rape and incest are the exceptions most conservatives believe satisfy the requirements for abortion. |
| 05:45.19 | lakshmi | i think thats a very costly alternative than just aborting |
| 05:45.28 | maquis | lakshmi: like i said, i've known people who've tried for years to adopt |
| 05:45.34 | lakshmi | not for palin apparently |
| 05:45.35 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: The adoptive parrents pay tens of thousands of dollars for adoption proceedings. |
| 05:45.37 | nick125 | fozzmoo: err, I believe that Palin's stance on that is nothing should be an exception. |
| 05:45.41 | maquis | through both public and private groups |
| 05:45.45 | fozzmoo | nick125: Show me. |
| 05:46.00 | lakshmi | costly alternetive we dont need to populate the world more than it already is |
| 05:46.08 | lakshmi | with kids that shouldnt need to be born |
| 05:46.12 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: Ahhh. You ARE pro-abortion. |
| 05:46.19 | lakshmi | and then force them to have shitty life styles |
| 05:46.29 | lakshmi | fozzmoo i thought i established that i was already |
| 05:46.31 | nick125 | http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/2006/governor/story/8372383p-8266781c.html |
| 05:46.34 | fozzmoo | Why don't you just go kill yourself? |
| 05:46.34 | maquis | fozzmoo: some people would add in the situation where the mother's life (or both lives) are in danger if it goes to full term |
| 05:46.40 | nick125 | The candidates were pressed on their stances on abortion and were even asked what they would do if their own daughters were raped and became pregnant. |
| 05:46.44 | nick125 | Palin said she would support abortion only if the mother's life was in danger. When it came to her daughter, she said, "I would choose life." |
| 05:46.45 | maquis | although i've known plenty of people who have chosen to take that risk a well |
| 05:46.47 | Sargun_Screen | If everyone of the previous generation had one less kids we wouldn't have these environmental problems. |
| 05:46.48 | fozzmoo | If you really cared about overpopulation that much, why don't you do something about it? |
| 05:47.00 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: Go kill yourself... and murder some of your family while you're at it. |
| 05:47.06 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: Do the world a favor! |
| 05:47.28 | maquis | lakshmi: please don't actually do that... |
| 05:47.29 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: because we're independent, living, breathing human beings... We have responsibilities and obligations. |
| 05:47.44 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Additionally, our instinct of survival tells us not to. |
| 05:47.52 | lakshmi | fozzmoo what is your deal.... ? why dont you do that and the universe a favor |
| 05:47.54 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: It sounds like lakshmi thinks it's her responsibility and obligation to keep population in check. |
| 05:48.01 | Sargun_Screen | and I didn't think provoking suicide, and homicide was your style. |
| 05:48.14 | Sargun_Screen | its all of our responsibilities. |
| 05:48.22 | maquis | really didn't mean to start this discussion |
| 05:48.24 | Jacolyte | I've killed thousands of potential children |
| 05:48.24 | fozzmoo | She could just go OD on some pills and satisfy her need. |
| 05:48.29 | Jacolyte | millinos |
| 05:48.31 | Jacolyte | millions* |
| 05:48.41 | lakshmi | no i think its the responsibility of the mother in question to forsee if she will be able to properly care for her child |
| 05:48.43 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Sure, jerking off doesn't count. |
| 05:48.48 | Jacolyte | Sure it does. |
| 05:49.11 | maquis | lakshmi: that's a good step *prior* to having sex |
| 05:49.12 | Jacolyte | They are living organisms, combined with ovaries (which women kill every month) |
| 05:49.13 | goozbach | holy crap! |
| 05:49.14 | fozzmoo | maquis: yeah, I know what you mean. |
| 05:49.16 | Jacolyte | make babies |
| 05:49.16 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: so you think its totally fine if we overpopulate the world and make it uninhabitable for genirations to come. |
| 05:49.20 | lakshmi | and technically letting rape victims have to have 18 years worth of responsibility just doesnt seem fair |
| 05:49.24 | goozbach | 7200 email messages in my INBOX |
| 05:49.36 | goozbach | next time I go on vacation, I'm turning my account off |
| 05:49.47 | nick125 | lakshmi: Just give them up for adoption! Leave them in the streets..maybe we should have those "baby drop boxes" like they do in Japan. |
| 05:49.56 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (n=carrus85@216.83.145.38) |
| 05:49.58 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: Again, rape, incest, and threats to the life of the mother and/or child are all exceptions most conservatives adhere to when it comes to rape. |
| 05:49.59 | Jacolyte | an abortion is like ripping out your own kidney |
| 05:50.07 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: not Palin. |
| 05:50.14 | nick125 | Not with Palin. |
| 05:50.25 | lakshmi | not palin |
| 05:50.28 | fozzmoo | heh heh.\ |
| 05:50.47 | fozzmoo | maquis: Why do I think we really dealing with one person in three screen session |
| 05:50.49 | nick125 | If your own child was raped and was pregnant because of that act, would you force them to keep the child? |
| 05:50.58 | Jacolyte | Abortions are linked to lower crime rates in impoverished areas. |
| 05:51.09 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Do you know why? |
| 05:51.20 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: because they're breeding less. |
| 05:51.24 | fozzmoo | No. |
| 05:51.26 | Jacolyte | yes. |
| 05:51.30 | fozzmoo | Take Chicago, IL. |
| 05:51.37 | Jacolyte | no, you can keep chicago, IL. |
| 05:51.43 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: mind answering my previous question. |
| 05:51.51 | fozzmoo | That's where the statistical analysis that went into the Freakonomics book about abortions comes from. |
| 05:51.58 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: so you think its totally fine if we overpopulate the world and make it uninhabitable for generations to come. |
| 05:52.06 | lakshmi | Sargun_Screen i think he does |
| 05:52.29 | nick125 | I don't think abortion should be looked at as a population control method. |
| 05:52.45 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: That's an unfair question. Should I ask you if you think it's "totally fine" if we kill every child, born or unborn? |
| 05:53.00 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: there's plenty of ways to not overpopulate the world without abortion |
| 05:53.16 | fozzmoo | Look at Europe... they're doing it just fine. |
| 05:53.20 | Tene | So what's the difference to you between early-term abortion and choosing not to conceive in the first place? |
| 05:53.26 | fozzmoo | Same with caucasians in the US. |
| 05:53.27 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: would the data be more legitimate if it came from somewhere else? |
| 05:53.37 | nick125 | Even though I don't think abortion is morally right, I don't think that it should be the job of Government to determine that! |
| 05:53.48 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Sorry, got distracted by Sargun... |
| 05:53.51 | fozzmoo | nick125: Me too. |
| 05:54.00 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: I'm just saying that's one thing that would help. |
| 05:54.16 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: and i don't think it's the right way to handle it |
| 05:54.17 | lakshmi | i think they should make it legal and it can be your choice to have one or not |
| 05:54.27 | Jacolyte | srsly guyz, abortion fuels humanity's progress. |
| 05:54.28 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: heh heh. IT is legal. |
| 05:54.30 | lakshmi | have one abortion i mean |
| 05:54.36 | nick125 | It should be the individual's choice, not the Government's choice. |
| 05:54.58 | Jacolyte | nick125: right, since the fetus is a part of you anyway |
| 05:55.18 | Jacolyte | nick125: we might as well make cutting yourself illegal, or body modification |
| 05:55.36 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: The study suggested that black crime went down in the 1990s because black women in poverty started having abortions in the early 1970s |
| 05:55.54 | fozzmoo | Why would crime have been higher before that? |
| 05:56.16 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: higher population of criminals. |
| 05:56.22 | fozzmoo | Abortion isn't the real interesting aspect of that study. |
| 05:56.39 | Sargun_Screen | What about other things about palin |
| 05:56.42 | Sargun_Screen | like her press policy |
| 05:56.47 | Sargun_Screen | what do you think about that fozzmoo |
| 05:56.48 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: then why do places with less access to abortion continue to rise in crime? |
| 05:56.51 | fozzmoo | What's interesting is that children that grow up in that situation... have a higher likelihood of committing crime. |
| 05:56.54 | nick125 | Sargun_Screen: You mean the "nobody talks to her" policy so she doesn't screw up? |
| 05:56.59 | Sargun_Screen | nick125: yah |
| 05:57.31 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: if someone is even considering abortion, don't you think they'd be shitty parents anyway? |
| 05:57.47 | nick125 | s/sh*tty/bad |
| 05:57.55 | fozzmoo | I don't think ANYONE supports abortion as a method of fighting crime. |
| 05:58.04 | Sargun_Screen | iDo. |
| 05:58.08 | fozzmoo | But getting people out of poverty... |
| 05:58.08 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: it's preventing crime |
| 05:58.09 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 05:58.11 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: not fighting it |
| 05:58.36 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: children who are raised impoverished, are likely to grow up impoverished. |
| 05:58.40 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: you there? |
| 05:58.48 | fozzmoo | Providing ways for unwed mothers living in poverty to give their children up for adoption to good families. That would lower the crime statistics. |
| 05:58.49 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: just like people who grow up with smoking parents are likely to smoke themselves |
| 05:59.11 | fozzmoo | Abortion is not the answer. |
| 05:59.13 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: yeah, if only people wanted these kids. |
| 05:59.16 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: carrying a child is expensive |
| 05:59.23 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: abortion isn't the answer, it's the prevention. |
| 05:59.25 | maquis | Jacolyte: you're back to my previous point |
| 05:59.35 | Sargun_Screen | paying for an OBGYN != cheap |
| 05:59.38 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: In most cases, adoptive parents pay for the medical costs. |
| 05:59.38 | Sargun_Screen | missing work != cheap |
| 05:59.42 | maquis | i know people who would love those kids and desperately want to adopt |
| 05:59.44 | Sargun_Screen | in an open adoption |
| 05:59.52 | Sargun_Screen | you can't pay for missed with IIRC |
| 05:59.56 | Sargun_Screen | "per diem" |
| 06:00.12 | nick125 | maquis: So there are enough parents to take care of the 76 thousand orphans in the US alone? |
| 06:00.15 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: How much work do you think a person is going to miss? |
| 06:00.21 | fozzmoo | nick125: Yes. |
| 06:00.43 | nick125 | on top of the increase that would also occur? |
| 06:00.45 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: 6 -12 weeks |
| 06:00.49 | fozzmoo | askljdfhkljsdhflgkjhsdlfkghslkdjfgh |
| 06:00.53 | Sargun_Screen | ? |
| 06:00.53 | maquis | nick125: I don't know how many there are, but there are a lot |
| 06:00.54 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: They're not taking the kid home! |
| 06:01.03 | fozzmoo | They're just popping out the baby and giving it up! |
| 06:01.10 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: i know someone who just had a baby last week and is going back to work this upcoming week |
| 06:01.11 | fozzmoo | They're out of work, what? 3 days? |
| 06:01.12 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: have you been pregnant |
| 06:01.13 | nick125 | Like I said, we could have dropboxes like in Japan. |
| 06:01.20 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: how long were they out before hand? |
| 06:01.21 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: yes, I've been pregnant (with my wife) three times. |
| 06:01.22 | lakshmi | kids that dont have a social attachment at a young age and kids that are placed in foster homes at a young age have been shown to have social and emotional problems later in life |
| 06:01.23 | maquis | took a week off to spend time with the baby |
| 06:01.24 | lakshmi | studies show |
| 06:01.31 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: about a week before |
| 06:01.35 | fozzmoo | In all cases, my wife was able to work up until the day she delivered. |
| 06:01.37 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: I've heard its uncomfortable. |
| 06:01.44 | maquis | i have one friend who actually went from work to the hospital |
| 06:02.01 | fozzmoo | But, yeah, let's talk about Sarah Palin. |
| 06:02.04 | Sargun_Screen | working while pregnant != enjoyable |
| 06:02.10 | maquis | plenty of friends who took care of their other children while pregnant |
| 06:02.16 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: you failed to provide commentary on my earlier point |
| 06:02.17 | nick125 | Sargun_Screen: But it's not intended to be enjoyable. |
| 06:02.28 | fozzmoo | Don't talk to me about John McCain. I still dont like the guy. |
| 06:02.30 | fozzmoo | But he's old. |
| 06:02.37 | fozzmoo | He might die before he finishes his term. |
| 06:02.45 | nick125 | Which leaves Palin as his "replacement" |
| 06:02.45 | Sargun_Screen | that would be bad. |
| 06:02.52 | fozzmoo | Not for me. It would be awesome. |
| 06:03.06 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen, nick125: You guys want Obama? |
| 06:03.20 | nick125 | I'd much rather have him than Palin, thank you very much. |
| 06:03.26 | fozzmoo | Why? |
| 06:03.27 | Sargun_Screen | I'd prefer Obama. |
| 06:03.34 | Jacolyte | maquis: foster homes breed as many criminals as crappy parents do |
| 06:03.35 | fozzmoo | What do you LIKE about Obama? |
| 06:03.41 | lakshmi | fozzmoo she shoots anything that moves |
| 06:03.42 | Sargun_Screen | not such a big fan of Biden. |
| 06:03.43 | fozzmoo | Let's talk about his judgement, for example. |
| 06:03.45 | Sargun_Screen | he's not Mccain |
| 06:03.53 | Sargun_Screen | for one. |
| 06:03.53 | lakshmi | and his vp is not palin |
| 06:03.58 | lakshmi | makes him great imho! |
| 06:04.02 | Jacolyte | maquis: the reason there are adoption lists is because you have single mothers fostering 10 kids and getting paid 200-300 per kid monthly |
| 06:04.07 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Rather than attack Obama, why don't you answer our questions? |
| 06:04.12 | fozzmoo | Good judgement is a quality I would think we would all agree is good for a president to have. |
| 06:04.39 | Sargun_Screen | For the third time, what do you think about Palin's press policy |
| 06:04.40 | nick125 | fozzmoo: And trying to fire your ex-brother-in-law is good judgement? |
| 06:04.45 | fozzmoo | I haven't seen a whole lot of good judgement. |
| 06:04.50 | lakshmi | palin doesnt have enough experience imho to even consider being a good replacement president |
| 06:04.53 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I don't know anything about her press policy. Can't comment. |
| 06:04.55 | lakshmi | or even a vp |
| 06:04.58 | Jacolyte | maquis: I was a little hellion myself, I knew many kids from foster homes, been in and out of detention, and it's nothing but a self-continuing system of crappy parenting and emotional damage for the child. |
| 06:05.07 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: And Biden, McCain, and Obama have more? |
| 06:05.12 | nick125 | Sargun_Screen: I think it shows that McCain is scared of Palin making a mistake. Which, in that case, shows that he's not confident. |
| 06:05.16 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: she is refusing comments from the press. |
| 06:05.27 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Refusing comments from the press? |
| 06:05.32 | lakshmi | fozzmoo well obama has more than palin for sure, and biden im sure has more |
| 06:05.36 | fozzmoo | What does that mean? she's refusing to hear what the press say to her? |
| 06:05.41 | nick125 | fozzmoo: As in, she will not talk to the press. |
| 06:05.41 | maquis | Jacolyte: so, maybe we should see about fixing the foster care system |
| 06:05.45 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: No. You're wrong. |
| 06:05.46 | nick125 | She will not make statemetns, etc. |
| 06:05.51 | fozzmoo | nick125: That's her choice. |
| 06:05.55 | nick125 | fozzmoo: What experience does Palin have? |
| 06:06.07 | maquis | i've known some very good foster kids, and i know some people who have been foster parents for a number of years |
| 06:06.07 | fozzmoo | nick125: Again, she is the current governor of Alaksa. |
| 06:06.09 | Jacolyte | maquis: whose going to do it, you? |
| 06:06.21 | fozzmoo | nick125: That's an administrative and executive position. |
| 06:06.22 | lakshmi | fozzmoo she was what governer for like 2 years big deal |
| 06:06.25 | maquis | who's going to do what? |
| 06:06.25 | nick125 | Other than the Governor of a corrupt oil state and the mayor of a town of under 10,000 people? |
| 06:06.26 | Jacolyte | maquis: McCain? With his naval academy education? |
| 06:06.26 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: err, questions. |
| 06:06.36 | Jacolyte | maquis: Jacolyte: so, maybe we should see about fixing the foster care system |
| 06:06.43 | maquis | i don't know who's going to do it |
| 06:06.45 | Jacolyte | Whose going to take on that challenge? |
| 06:06.46 | fozzmoo | lakshmi, nick125: which means she has governed over a state budget of 12 billion dollars. |
| 06:06.48 | Jacolyte | Exactly. |
| 06:06.49 | maquis | but i think we should start looking at it |
| 06:07.01 | nick125 | Jacolyte: Haha. You mean 894/899? |
| 06:07.02 | Jacolyte | maquis: abortion is more affective |
| 06:07.12 | fozzmoo | Obama best comparison is that his campaign deals with $20 million/month. |
| 06:07.13 | Jacolyte | it's more inexpensive |
| 06:07.15 | fozzmoo | (in donations) |
| 06:07.24 | Sargun_Screen | McCain crashed several planes. |
| 06:07.32 | Jacolyte | maquis: and it completely spares the child of any mental trauma |
| 06:08.07 | fozzmoo | Obama can't seem to pick friends that aren't former Pentagon bombers, radical Islamic clerics, or racist black supremisists. |
| 06:08.19 | maquis | Jacolyte: well, canings and cuttong off people's hands for stealing and stuff like that is a lot more effective at reducing crime than jail is |
| 06:08.23 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: and she still needed federal support |
| 06:08.25 | fozzmoo | At each revelation, he says, "Oh, that's not the William Ayers I knew." |
| 06:08.30 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Whoa, what the hell? |
| 06:08.38 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's mentally scarring too |
| 06:08.45 | maquis | Jacolyte: well, we can resolve that |
| 06:08.47 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I don't think you know what you're talking about. She turned away the funding for the bridge to nowhere. |
| 06:08.49 | Sargun_Screen | Are you calling Obama muslim? |
| 06:08.56 | Jacolyte | maquis: yes, by not having it in the first place. |
| 06:08.56 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: No. I'm not. I know he's not. |
| 06:08.57 | Sargun_Screen | Initially she supported it. |
| 06:08.58 | nick125 | fozzmoo: You mean after she supported it? |
| 06:08.59 | maquis | if someone steals or breaks the law, shoot them |
| 06:09.08 | fozzmoo | But he had a islamic outreach advisor... |
| 06:09.13 | Jacolyte | maquis: uh, no |
| 06:09.17 | fozzmoo | worked for his campaign for a while... |
| 06:09.19 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: that's mean. |
| 06:09.20 | maquis | that should decrease the crime rate significantly very quickly |
| 06:09.31 | Jacolyte | maquis: no it wouldn't |
| 06:09.32 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: And you think all of Islam is evil? |
| 06:09.34 | fozzmoo | and then it was discovered that this advisor actually had ties to some radical groups. |
| 06:09.36 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: i'm just saying... if you're just talking about the effectiveness of the solution, that's a pretty good one |
| 06:09.39 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: No. |
| 06:09.40 | Jacolyte | maquis: that only propagates fear and a police state |
| 06:09.41 | nick125 | Bomb bomb bomb! |
| 06:09.45 | maquis | Jacolyte: actually, it works quite well in many countries |
| 06:09.51 | Jacolyte | maquis: no it doesn't |
| 06:10.08 | fozzmoo | They let the guy go from the campaign. |
| 06:10.10 | maquis | if you look at the countries that do that type of thing, you'll find that the crime rate is extremely low |
| 06:10.19 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: then why are you critiquing him for befriending muslims? |
| 06:10.23 | fozzmoo | once again, Obama came out and said something akin to, "Oh, gee, I had no idea..." |
| 06:10.41 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: either very low, or very high. |
| 06:10.43 | Jacolyte | maquis: do you like living in a dictatorship? |
| 06:10.45 | nick125 | fozzmoo: So we should crucify someone for every acquantance they have? |
| 06:10.54 | fozzmoo | Just like, "Oh gee, I had no idea this preacher I've been listening to for the last 20 years was a racist." |
| 06:11.04 | Jacolyte | maquis: do you like martial law? |
| 06:11.06 | maquis | Jacolyte: no. i'm just saying that that's what you get when you extend your logic |
| 06:11.08 | fozzmoo | nick125: No, but "show me your friends and I'll show you your future." |
| 06:11.14 | Jacolyte | maquis: no it's not |
| 06:11.15 | maquis | personally, i'd rather wait until someone does something wrong before killing them |
| 06:11.24 | maquis | rather than killing them because they might grow up to do something wrong |
| 06:11.32 | Jacolyte | maquis: when you have an abortion, you're only preventing potential life. |
| 06:11.34 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: but if you can just remove a person from this world, painlessly |
| 06:11.37 | nick125 | fozzmoo: So, what's McCain's future? More ear-marks and special interests running the country? |
| 06:11.38 | maquis | Jacolyte: i disagree |
| 06:11.46 | fozzmoo | I just found out something else disturbing about Obama... |
| 06:11.55 | Jacolyte | maquis: then masturbation is just as murderous |
| 06:12.02 | Jacolyte | according you to |
| 06:12.03 | fozzmoo | He and his wife Michelle started a non-profit organization in Chicago called Public Allies. |
| 06:12.08 | maquis | Jacolyte: masturbation is prior to conception |
| 06:12.15 | maquis | at the point of conception is where it becomes a separate life form |
| 06:12.19 | Jacolyte | maquis: is an ejaculation not potential life? |
| 06:12.23 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: yes... |
| 06:12.35 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: Do you think then we should not kill rodents? |
| 06:12.39 | maquis | Jacolyte: i don't see a fetus as "potential life" i see it as "life" |
| 06:12.41 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's not a separate life form until it can breathe and eat independently |
| 06:12.45 | maquis | in fact, i see it as "human life" |
| 06:12.59 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's a part of a bigger human |
| 06:13.02 | maquis | it has feelings and actions of its own |
| 06:13.02 | Sargun_Screen | what separates humans from the other mammals? |
| 06:13.06 | Jacolyte | maquis: one who has 100% control over their body |
| 06:13.20 | fozzmoo | http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=74462 |
| 06:13.34 | maquis | Jacolyte: if that human had 100% control over their body, then they had a decision to make as to whether they wanted a child |
| 06:13.37 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: you don't think mice have actions of their own? |
| 06:13.56 | Jacolyte | maquis: and whether they want to change their mind. |
| 06:13.58 | maquis | once they make that decision, they can't go back and say "oh... never mind... i didn't really want to do that" |
| 06:14.03 | fozzmoo | One thing for you abortionists shoudl consider... Bush was pro-life... Abortion is still legal. |
| 06:14.04 | maquis | actions have consequences |
| 06:14.19 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: mice have actions of their own, but they are not human |
| 06:14.21 | fozzmoo | Reagan was pro-life. Abortion remained legal through his administration. |
| 06:14.26 | Jacolyte | maquis: yeah, and irresponsible breeding has the consequence of higher crime rates. |
| 06:14.31 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: but bush was more prowar |
| 06:14.45 | fozzmoo | It's not going to change because Palin's president, regardless of her personal views. |
| 06:14.51 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: But swiss cheese has more holes! |
| 06:15.08 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: you're comparing apples and oranges. |
| 06:15.12 | nick125 | fozzmoo: We have what...2-3 potential Supreme Court seats opening up within 2008-2012? |
| 06:15.15 | Jacolyte | maquis: just because you personally would have responsibility, doesn't mean someone else will. |
| 06:15.21 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: You're comparing apples to pencil sharpeners! |
| 06:15.34 | maquis | Jacolyte: that doesn't mean that they can just ignore the consequences of their actions |
| 06:15.38 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: And now we know how mature McCain's supporters are too. |
| 06:15.38 | maquis | and say "oh... it's my body" |
| 06:15.43 | fozzmoo | nick125: Oh yeah? lakshmi's gonna kill a couple justices to lower the population fo the world? |
| 06:15.46 | Jacolyte | maquis: sure it does, it's their choice, and their bodies. |
| 06:15.52 | maquis | Jacolyte: okay... |
| 06:15.54 | maquis | so, let's take your logic |
| 06:15.55 | lakshmi | fozzmoo when did i say that? |
| 06:16.04 | maquis | now, let's say someone made an irresponsible decision to rob a bank |
| 06:16.07 | maquis | they get caught |
| 06:16.08 | lakshmi | i just said that everyone mindlessly getting pregnant and keeping their kid |
| 06:16.11 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: personal attacks? |
| 06:16.13 | Jacolyte | maquis: bad analogy |
| 06:16.13 | lakshmi | sems like a bad idea for the world |
| 06:16.17 | maquis | now they say "oh... i kinda wish i didn't do that" |
| 06:16.19 | Jacolyte | maquis: now you're bringing in a 3rd party. |
| 06:16.21 | fozzmoo | maquis: But it's their RIGHT to rob a bank! Maybe they're POOR! |
| 06:16.22 | lakshmi | fozzmoo kindly STOP twisting my words |
| 06:16.32 | Jacolyte | maquis: the fetus is an internal organ |
| 06:16.48 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: There's a world of medical evidence that refutes your claim. |
| 06:16.53 | maquis | and then they say "oh! it's my right to do what i want. you can't lock me up because that takes away my rights" |
| 06:16.56 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: show me some. |
| 06:16.56 | maquis | Jacolyte: that's where we differ |
| 06:17.06 | Jacolyte | maquis: bad analogy |
| 06:17.07 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Continuing to say that only demonstrates your ignorance. |
| 06:17.08 | maquis | a fetus is *not* an internal organ |
| 06:17.14 | maquis | it is another human being |
| 06:17.23 | Jacolyte | maquis: no it's not, it's a part of a human being. |
| 06:17.29 | fozzmoo | maquis: And it's a completely separate biological system from the host (mother) |
| 06:17.41 | Jacolyte | maquis: that's like saying my sperms are all human beings. |
| 06:17.55 | maquis | and if you think it's just an organ, you A) don't understand what an organ is, and B) don't know anyting about human reproduction |
| 06:17.56 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: No. Again. Ignorance on display there. |
| 06:17.57 | Jacolyte | maquis: that's like saying an egg is a human being. |
| 06:18.04 | maquis | Jacolyte: no, it's not |
| 06:18.19 | maquis | and i'm not going to sit here any longer and argue against your lack of knowledge |
| 06:18.19 | fozzmoo | A placenta is an organ. |
| 06:18.26 | fozzmoo | I'll gvie you that. |
| 06:18.36 | fozzmoo | But what's inside the placenta is not an organ. |
| 06:18.51 | Jacolyte | maquis: robbing a bank is entirely different, because you involve a third party. What you do to your own body is your business. |
| 06:19.04 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Ultimately, that's true. |
| 06:19.14 | fozzmoo | but that's beyond the realm of policy. |
| 06:19.18 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: and a fetus is your own body, until it is OUTSIDE living on it's OWN |
| 06:19.32 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Okay, let's consider that... |
| 06:19.34 | fozzmoo | It's a good point. |
| 06:19.39 | Jacolyte | just like a sperm doesn't concept life until it's OUTSIDE of your testicles. |
| 06:19.40 | fozzmoo | When you have a fetus growing inside of you... |
| 06:19.41 | maquis | Jacolyte: like i said, i'm not going to argue against your ignorance anymore |
| 06:20.03 | Jacolyte | maquis: k, see ya |
| 06:20.09 | fozzmoo | Many would say it then becomes your responsibilty to care for that fetus. |
| 06:20.25 | fozzmoo | Aborting the fetus because, say, you don't want that responsibility, is... uhm... irresponsible. |
| 06:20.29 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: just like someone would say it's a responsibility to care for your liver? but some people don't? they choose to drink? |
| 06:20.48 | fozzmoo | Except your liver doesn't hold the prospect of someday thinking for itself. |
| 06:21.27 | fozzmoo | Who here believes health care is a "right" ? |
| 06:21.34 | Jacolyte | sperm combined with ovaries have the prospect of something thinking for itself |
| 06:21.39 | Jacolyte | do they deserves names too? |
| 06:21.48 | Sargun_Screen | I believe the US healtcare system needs to be reformed. |
| 06:21.51 | fozzmoo | I've been reading a lot about the constitution... and I haven't seen that one yet. |
| 06:21.57 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: With you on that one. |
| 06:22.33 | fozzmoo | And if it should be a right... shouldn't that be in the form of an ammendment to the constitution and not congressional legislation? |
| 06:22.37 | nick125 | Let's get rid of police too. I don't remember reading where it says that police protection is a right. |
| 06:22.41 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: For a while I paid 12k/yr for health insurance. |
| 06:22.46 | xvalentinex | I think abortion should be the right of a human, however the couple should then have the priveledge of conception taken away. |
| 06:22.57 | fozzmoo | xvalentinex: :) |
| 06:23.05 | Sargun_Screen | who are you xvalentinex |
| 06:23.11 | Sargun_Screen | valentines? Xs? huh? |
| 06:23.18 | fozzmoo | xvalentinex: or copulation. :) |
| 06:23.21 | Sargun_Screen | You seem like you're from AIM |
| 06:23.31 | xvalentinex | nah, just a new guy |
| 06:23.33 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: What's your deal? |
| 06:23.42 | Sargun_Screen | Cool. |
| 06:23.44 | Sargun_Screen | From utah? |
| 06:23.48 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: what do you mean? |
| 06:23.49 | xvalentinex | yep Orem |
| 06:23.53 | Sargun_Screen | Neat. |
| 06:23.57 | Sargun_Screen | What do you do there? |
| 06:24.00 | fozzmoo | Never mind. You're backing off. |
| 06:24.12 | xvalentinex | Work |
| 06:24.15 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: No, I was just commenting, the nick name seemed very much like AIM. |
| 06:24.16 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 06:24.17 | Sargun_Screen | err |
| 06:24.18 | xvalentinex | mow the lawn |
| 06:24.20 | Jacolyte | When you make something like health care a right, you have to violate the rights of others |
| 06:24.20 | Sargun_Screen | like someone from AIM. |
| 06:24.55 | Jacolyte | Someone like me, who doesn't even use health care, would be taxed. |
| 06:25.08 | romanovic | I've never stuck around in this channel on a sat night |
| 06:25.11 | Jacolyte | Someone else's health problems, would be taxing me. |
| 06:25.17 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Unless you're poor... |
| 06:25.26 | fozzmoo | then you're pretty much absolved from paying taxes. |
| 06:25.33 | romanovic | much busier that I guessed it would be... |
| 06:26.25 | fozzmoo | romanovic: Yeah, no kidding. I just came down to grab my laptop and do some coding and Sargun was dissing Palin, saying she had "padded" her resume. |
| 06:26.31 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: why should I have to pay for someone else's health care? |
| 06:26.40 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I don't think you should. |
| 06:26.51 | Jacolyte | why should anyone have to take the fall for someone else? |
| 06:27.01 | Jacolyte | that is the problem with universal health care. |
| 06:27.06 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Good question. Why would you consider voting for Barack Obama?! |
| 06:27.35 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: I'm not. |
| 06:27.36 | nick125 | Let's all vote for McCain so not only can we not afford the taxes, we can no longer afford health care too! |
| 06:27.56 | Jacolyte | I'm writing in Ron Paul. |
| 06:28.01 | fozzmoo | Obama has said he wants to institute Universal Health Care and Universal Education... Why? Because that's really the only way we can give blacks the reparations for the injustice of slavery. |
| 06:28.09 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Good for you. |
| 06:28.19 | fozzmoo | Ron Paul's got it right on economically. |
| 06:28.26 | nick125 | fozzmoo: So only african americans would get those benefits? |
| 06:28.33 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: uhm,no. |
| 06:28.40 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: as a president, he's spot on about everything he should be doing. |
| 06:28.43 | fozzmoo | nick125: No, but Blacks are disproportionately poor... so they would benefit more than others. |
| 06:28.55 | Sargun_Screen | 22:00 < levi> Sargun_Screen: Specifically, the inflating of Sarah Palin's experience to make her sound so much more experienced than Obama that, if you use the same standards, also make her sound so much more experienced than McCain. |
| 06:29.00 | Sargun_Screen | 222:00 < levi> Sargun_Screen: Specifically, the inflating of Sarah Palin's experience to make her sound so much more experienced than Obama that, if you use the same standards, also make her sound so much more experienced than McCain. |
| 06:29.04 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: I disagree with his pro-life stance, and his belief in a god, however, he feels it's not up to him to decide what we believe. |
| 06:29.04 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I don't agree with him on his foreign policy positions... but, I agree, he's very good. |
| 06:29.06 | Sargun_Screen | it was not thine. |
| 06:29.25 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: why do you disagree with his foreign policy? |
| 06:29.43 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I just do. He's very much an isolationist and I don't agree with that. |
| 06:30.05 | fozzmoo | But I do agree with his position on slashing spending, full transparency, and radical tax reforms. |
| 06:30.34 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: what do you mean by isolationist? |
| 06:30.54 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: The republicans haven't brought down taxes in the past 8 years |
| 06:31.00 | Sargun_Screen | why do you think they will now? |
| 06:31.03 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I mean that he wants the US military to cease any operations outside our borders. |
| 06:31.03 | nick125 | Sargun_Screen: Except for the top 1% |
| 06:31.09 | fozzmoo | nick125: Wrong. |
| 06:31.20 | fozzmoo | Bush's tax cuts actually RAISED taxes on the wealthiest. |
| 06:31.21 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: we have no reason to be in any other countries at this point in time. |
| 06:31.21 | Sargun_Screen | Ok, ok, the top 5% |
| 06:31.28 | maquis | isolationism = something that everyone should have learned in middle school history |
| 06:31.29 | Sargun_Screen | "tax cuts" |
| 06:31.31 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: on that, we disagree. |
| 06:31.38 | nick125 | fozzmoo: Really? Where's the proof? |
| 06:32.09 | fozzmoo | nick125: It's there. The tax cuts benefitted the middle class and the poor, mostly. |
| 06:32.23 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: the U.S. conducts black operations and secret wars all over the world. We have 700+ bases across the world. |
| 06:32.34 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: Remember mena? |
| 06:32.45 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I'm not familiar with "mena" |
| 06:33.13 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I think our military is probably deployed more than it should be. |
| 06:33.40 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Did you have lower taxes during the bush administration compared to the clinton administration |
| 06:33.43 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: http://www.csun.edu/coms/ben/news/cia/mena/index.html |
| 06:33.47 | fozzmoo | I would welcome a president who is willing to close down bases in other countries where there is no real military need for them to be there. |
| 06:34.06 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: "Conservative Republicans have jumped on the anti-CIA bandwagon in response to allegations that several shipments of cocaine were flown through the Mena Airport in Arkansas while Governor Bill Clinton looked the other way." |
| 06:34.14 | fozzmoo | But Ron Paul seems like he wouldn't station troops to be on the ready to defend Taiwan should China attack them. |
| 06:34.20 | maquis | i had much higher taxes during the bush era than during the clinton era |
| 06:34.32 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: helping out taiwan only increases their dependancy on us. |
| 06:34.32 | maquis | granted, i didn't have an income during the clinton era... |
| 06:34.34 | fozzmoo | maquis: You probably made a lot more money... |
| 06:34.41 | maquis | :) |
| 06:35.08 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: taiwan will never be safe from China until it learns to stand on it's own two feet. |
| 06:35.28 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Taiwan will never be safe from China, period. |
| 06:35.33 | fozzmoo | As long as China is communist. |
| 06:35.50 | maquis | oh dear... now we're on this topic |
| 06:35.51 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: Additionally, do you support the patriot act? |
| 06:36.04 | maquis | bows out, noting that she refuses to take a side on this issue |
| 06:36.20 | Jacolyte | Well guys, it was fun debating. I'm going to do some programming. |
| 06:36.20 | maquis | too many friends from taiwan, and too many friends from china |
| 06:36.29 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I think every president should have the ability to enact wartime measures that may impose on citizens' rights... as long as those measures have sunsets. |
| 06:36.50 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: you aren't answering the question. |
| 06:37.04 | fozzmoo | I thought I did. |
| 06:37.13 | Sargun_Screen | I was looking for a black or white |
| 06:37.14 | fozzmoo | I support the Patriot Act so long as the measures have a sunset. |
| 06:37.22 | Sargun_Screen | but it doesn't |
| 06:37.25 | Sargun_Screen | so is that a no. |
| 06:37.26 | fozzmoo | If they do not have a sunset, then I do not support it. |
| 06:37.32 | Sargun_Screen | ok. |
| 06:37.41 | fozzmoo | Lincoln is a good example. |
| 06:37.42 | Sargun_Screen | then why don't you just say you don't support it? |
| 06:37.49 | nick125 | brb guys |
| 06:37.52 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Because I don't know thatmuch about he Patriot Act. |
| 06:37.57 | Sargun_Screen | Lincoln was a completely different time. |
| 06:38.02 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: because he's being clear on what it is about it that he doesn't support |
| 06:38.08 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Whatever. |
| 06:38.25 | fozzmoo | Roosevelt. |
| 06:38.31 | fozzmoo | Oh, yeah, that was a LONG time ago. |
| 06:38.34 | fozzmoo | Can't count that one either. |
| 06:38.37 | fozzmoo | Nixon! |
| 06:38.41 | fozzmoo | Eh. Doesn't count either. |
| 06:38.43 | fozzmoo | Reagan! |
| 06:38.47 | fozzmoo | Eh- way before YOUR time, Sargun_Screen |
| 06:38.53 | maquis | washington |
| 06:38.58 | Sargun_Screen | Apparently fozzmoo has gone into an infinite loop of stupidity. |
| 06:39.16 | Sargun_Screen | only to result in the same answer, or insulting someone |
| 06:40.04 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: There are plenty of similarities to how a president deals with issues during wartime between the 1950s and now. Just because we have computers and cell phones now doesn't make it ridiculous to compare. |
| 06:40.12 | fozzmoo | s/1950/1850/ |
| 06:40.28 | fozzmoo | Of course, that pretty much illustrates how I feel about the founding fathers too. |
| 06:40.55 | Sargun_Screen | Not only computers in cellular phones. |
| 06:41.08 | Sargun_Screen | but I mean, someone can hit a button right now |
| 06:41.11 | fozzmoo | But then, I believe the Constitution was divinely influenced... and that makes me a pariah amongst these "enlightened" atheists. |
| 06:41.17 | Sargun_Screen | and end all life in a country. |
| 06:41.23 | Sargun_Screen | in about 45 minutes. |
| 06:41.56 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: that makes you different, you follow purely in faith, and don't reason. |
| 06:42.17 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: just because someone has faith doesn't mean that they don't have reason as well |
| 06:42.18 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: What did you say? I was reading my scriptures, getting my marching orders for tomorrow. |
| 06:42.44 | romanovic | lol |
| 06:43.10 | fozzmoo | Granted, there are a few religions like that... |
| 06:43.27 | fozzmoo | a few radical islam sects seem to come to mind. |
| 06:43.36 | Sargun_Screen | Well, answer these questions: Does Palin believe the capture is coming? Does palin believe its a mandate from god to be in the middle east? Does palin plan the USes future based on the two previous points. |
| 06:43.46 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: and the crusades never happened. |
| 06:43.47 | fozzmoo | Capture? |
| 06:43.55 | Sargun_Screen | re |
| 06:43.56 | maquis | the capture is coming? |
| 06:43.56 | Sargun_Screen | rapture. |
| 06:44.00 | Sargun_Screen | haha. |
| 06:44.02 | Sargun_Screen | that was stupid. |
| 06:44.40 | fozzmoo | I believe your second question refers to a recording made of Palin at her church in which she says she prays that Gods will be done in Iraq. |
| 06:44.45 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: any president is going to make policies based on their personal beliefs |
| 06:44.50 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." |
| 06:44.53 | maquis | regardless of whether those beliefs are religious or not |
| 06:44.56 | Jacolyte | Benjamin Franklin. |
| 06:45.17 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I'm familiar. Benjamin Franklin also had an affinity for hairy armpits. |
| 06:45.24 | maquis | Jacolyte: that is the first thing you've said today that i agree with |
| 06:45.27 | Sargun_Screen | maquis: but would you plan your financial future based on the rapture? |
| 06:45.37 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: hairy armpits do not make his claims less valid. |
| 06:45.53 | maquis | Sargun_Screen: probably not, since i don't know when it will be |
| 06:46.02 | maquis | or my view of what others call the rapture |
| 06:46.02 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Maybe you don't understand the context of that statement. |
| 06:46.15 | maquis | that would be stupid |
| 06:46.16 | fozzmoo | it's actually a statement of humility. |
| 06:46.24 | fozzmoo | Not a statement of divine providence. |
| 06:46.29 | maquis | yes, i think that the end of the world will come at some point in the future... |
| 06:46.42 | maquis | i don't know when, and i'm not going to put my entire life on hold waiting for it |
| 06:46.42 | Sargun_Screen | earlier if the republicans are in power. |
| 06:47.03 | Jacolyte | maquis: it will at least be millions if not billions of years from now. |
| 06:47.15 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Maybe. Or we'll be wearing fuzzy hats with a red star on them if the Democrats are in power. |
| 06:47.21 | maquis | Jacolyte: that may be your view |
| 06:47.23 | fozzmoo | I'll take my chances of seeing Jesus Christ sooner. :) |
| 06:47.33 | maquis | i would not be surprised if it was in the next 200-300 years |
| 06:47.35 | Sargun_Screen | Jacolyte: probably earlier. |
| 06:47.41 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's not my view, it's the general consensus of the scientific community. |
| 06:47.50 | Sargun_Screen | we have a whole lot of idiotic presidents, etc |
| 06:47.53 | Jacolyte | maquis: you know, the same community that develops life-saving technology. |
| 06:47.53 | Sargun_Screen | they'll nuke us. |
| 06:48.12 | Sargun_Screen | that the republicans have cut funding for 8 years in a row. |
| 06:48.25 | maquis | Jacolyte: science knows a lot, but there's an awful lot that science doesn't know |
| 06:48.34 | fozzmoo | Is it the federal governments job to fund science? |
| 06:48.35 | Jacolyte | maquis: what's the alternative? |
| 06:48.39 | Jacolyte | maquis: guessing? |
| 06:48.47 | Jacolyte | maquis: ancient desert scribblings? |
| 06:48.48 | fozzmoo | I thought science was pretty well handled by private laboratories. |
| 06:48.58 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: computers would have taken a lot longer without government investment |
| 06:49.03 | fozzmoo | Oh, hey, let's talk about energy! |
| 06:49.18 | fozzmoo | There's one of Palin's strong points. :) |
| 06:49.28 | Sargun_Screen | yes! More Oil! Off shore drilling! |
| 06:49.31 | fozzmoo | Probably her #1 issue in my book. |
| 06:49.38 | Sargun_Screen | doesn't matter to you guys, you guys are in a desert. |
| 06:49.42 | Sargun_Screen | I like my beach |
| 06:49.42 | maquis | Jacolyte: there's plenty of alternatives. guessing is certainly one of them. faith is another. |
| 06:49.54 | Jacolyte | maquis: faith is as good as guessing. |
| 06:49.55 | fozzmoo | more oil. More natural gas. more nuclear plants. More clean coal. More wind. More solar. More everything. |
| 06:50.05 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Maybe for you. :) |
| 06:50.12 | maquis | Jacolyte: there's a distincton if you have personal witnesses of your faith |
| 06:50.13 | Sargun_Screen | Yes, except you aren't going to see anything on that list |
| 06:50.15 | Sargun_Screen | except the first. |
| 06:50.16 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: me, and the dictionary. |
| 06:50.22 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith |
| 06:50.25 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: What if you're really good at guessing? |
| 06:50.39 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: I actually am good at guessing. |
| 06:51.00 | fozzmoo | heh heh. Good for you. |
| 06:51.04 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: watch... gas prices will continually rise, until new technology opens up and relieves our dependancy on oil! |
| 06:51.04 | fozzmoo | No need for faith. |
| 06:51.09 | fozzmoo | I'm terrible at guessing. I'll take faith. |
| 06:51.58 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: I'd rather not know than have a false and baseless answer. |
| 06:52.17 | fozzmoo | There are two issues here when it comes to energy: #1) We need more energy. #2) We want less energy that comes from outside the US, specifically from the middle-east. |
| 06:52.19 | maquis | personally, i've had enough experiences that make it so that my faith is not "baseless" |
| 06:52.24 | Jacolyte | because a false/baseless answer is most likely going to lead me in the wrong direction :) |
| 06:52.40 | Jacolyte | maquis: then it's no longer faith, it's experience. |
| 06:53.03 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I certainly hope we see more than just more oil. |
| 06:53.04 | Jacolyte | experience is a historical recount of events that allow you to make a reasonable guess. |
| 06:53.19 | Jacolyte | experience should tell you that the earth is not likely to be consumed by a fireball any time soon. |
| 06:53.32 | fozzmoo | That's where it comes to us, as people, to make sure the next administration makes good on its promises to get out of the way of all those other forms of energy. |
| 06:53.33 | Jacolyte | it's been rotating around the sun for millions of years, and it will continue to do so. |
| 06:53.38 | maquis | Jacolyte: than you can call my views on these topics "experience-based" rather than "faith-based". does that make you feel like deriding them less? |
| 06:53.49 | fozzmoo | What the hell is the problem with nuclear energy, anyway? France gets 70% of its electricity from nuke plants. |
| 06:54.11 | Jacolyte | maquis: experience alone doesn't validate anything. |
| 06:54.21 | fozzmoo | I don't understand why we don't have a bunch of nuke plants in the US. |
| 06:54.26 | Jacolyte | maquis: it only merits investigation. |
| 06:54.36 | maquis | Jacolyte: and you're giving experience-based arguments to the contrary |
| 06:54.46 | maquis | *shrug* |
| 06:54.53 | Jacolyte | maquis: name one |
| 06:54.55 | fozzmoo | Both the republicans and the democrats complain that "so much" of our oil comes from the middle east. |
| 06:55.03 | fozzmoo | In actuality, most of our oil comes from Canada. |
| 06:55.09 | fozzmoo | The next largest supplier is Mexico. |
| 06:55.19 | maquis | wow! conky just reported my cpu at 285% |
| 06:55.33 | fozzmoo | And then, further down the list, are other countries. Not sure where domestic production fits into that list. |
| 06:55.38 | maquis | Jacolyte: you just said that experience says that the earth isn't going away |
| 06:56.04 | maquis | anyway, i'm tired of arguing |
| 06:56.05 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I've been on both sides of the issue you're discussing, many times. |
| 06:56.10 | Jacolyte | maquis: I said experience should tell you that the earth isn't going away, and it isn't. I remember originally saying scientific data supports it. |
| 06:56.20 | lakshmi | maquis im with you even though i didnt say much |
| 06:56.24 | maquis | science is experience-based |
| 06:56.26 | maquis | anyway... |
| 06:56.31 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's evidence based. |
| 06:56.38 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's also based on repeatability. |
| 06:56.44 | maquis | and the difference between evidence and experience? |
| 06:56.45 | fozzmoo | When I was 18-19 years-old, I was fascinated by the idea of determinism. |
| 06:56.58 | maquis | personally, i trust something i've experienced over something i've seen or heard |
| 06:57.07 | Jacolyte | maquis: a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something |
| 06:57.10 | fozzmoo | Determinism, of course, questions the existence of a God that is omnipotent and omniscient and the idea that we have free agency. |
| 06:57.12 | Jacolyte | that is experience. |
| 06:57.42 | Jacolyte | maquis: how do you know someone isn't lying? |
| 06:57.52 | Jacolyte | maquis: how do you know they are right about what they "experienced"? |
| 06:58.04 | maquis | Jacolyte: i'm not talking about other people's experiences |
| 06:58.07 | maquis | i'm talking about my experiences |
| 06:58.10 | Jacolyte | maquis: evidence is something that won't deteriorate as an argument in a court of law, such as DNA. |
| 06:58.15 | fozzmoo | But now, I have a strong belief in my religion. \ |
| 06:58.18 | Jacolyte | maquis: how do you know you're right? |
| 06:58.31 | Jacolyte | maquis: how do you know what you experienced wasn't something else? |
| 06:58.35 | maquis | Jacolyte: i'm more sure that i'm right about something i've experienced than i am about what someone else is saying |
| 06:58.39 | Sargun_Screen | fozzmoo: did you vote for bush in '00 or '04 |
| 06:58.46 | fozzmoo | Like maquis says, science is largely based on observation. How do you know observation is correct? |
| 06:58.52 | Jacolyte | maquis: it's not just what someone else is saying, science is repeatable. |
| 06:58.57 | maquis | Jacolyte: yeah |
| 06:59.01 | Jacolyte | maquis: science is also consistent. |
| 06:59.05 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: I don't remember. I might have voted for him one of those times... I know I voted libertarian at least one of them. |
| 06:59.05 | maquis | and you know what |
| 06:59.18 | maquis | science changes |
| 06:59.28 | Jacolyte | maquis: and so should you. |
| 06:59.37 | maquis | too bad |
| 06:59.41 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: But, in both cases, 2000 and 2004, Bush was clearly the better choice than the democrat running. |
| 06:59.45 | maquis | i trust my experiences that are consistent |
| 06:59.48 | Sargun_Screen | Seriously? |
| 06:59.57 | Jacolyte | maquis: what if one of your experiences was wrong? and you had blatant proof of it? |
| 07:00.00 | Sargun_Screen | You really think the president who brought us to war |
| 07:00.09 | Jacolyte | maquis: would you continue believing it? |
| 07:00.16 | Sargun_Screen | is better than al gore? |
| 07:00.22 | maquis | Jacolyte: i one experience was wrong, i'd see if there were other possible explanations |
| 07:00.30 | fozzmoo | Sargun_Screen: Gore says (with 20/20 hindsight, of course) that he would have gone to war too... and he would have caught Bin Laden, gosh dangit! |
| 07:00.38 | maquis | if consistent experiences i've had for the past 20 years? |
| 07:00.45 | Jacolyte | maquis: see, science doesn't just change arbitrarily. |
| 07:00.47 | maquis | well, then i'd have a hard time believing the person saying i'm wrong |
| 07:01.01 | Sargun_Screen | At least Gore would have a sane energy policy |
| 07:01.06 | fozzmoo | Al Gore is the prophet of Global Warming. Thank God in Heaven we didn't elect that guy. |
| 07:01.12 | Jacolyte | maquis: Gravity is a fact. would you not agree? things fall to the earth... that is what we call gravity. |
| 07:01.28 | Jacolyte | maquis: the theory of gravity is simply an explanation. |
| 07:01.36 | Jacolyte | maquis: much like evolution is fact. |
| 07:01.46 | Jacolyte | maquis: the theory of evolution simply exists to explain why evolution happens. |
| 07:02.05 | Jacolyte | maquis: the theory of gravity could be totally wrong and completely off. |
| 07:02.06 | fozzmoo | pssssht. Global Warming... the global thermometer has been declining consistently since 1998... and, wow, the solar sunspot activity is following suit... and temperatures on Mars went up during the same period ours did. HOly Cow! |
| 07:02.14 | Jacolyte | maquis: but that does not change the fact that gravity happens. |
| 07:02.27 | fozzmoo | Who strapped the Diesel engine to the Pathfinder probe that went to Mars?! |
| 07:02.34 | Jacolyte | maquis: science exists simply to explain the world around us. |
| 07:03.01 | maquis | and some of the great scientists of the world also believe in a God |
| 07:03.03 | fozzmoo | Gore only wants us to believe in Global Warming so his company that sells carbon credits can get rich on cap and trade. He's a hypocrit through and through. |
| 07:03.13 | Jacolyte | maquis: they're not biologists. |
| 07:03.19 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: You're wrong. |
| 07:03.36 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: sure, but that doesn't mean evolution is wrong. |
| 07:03.50 | maquis | Jacolyte: Einstein is not a biologist, and neither is Hawking. I'll grant you that |
| 07:03.51 | Jacolyte | I could be wrong 100 times over. |
| 07:03.56 | fozzmoo | I doubt maquis and I are on the other side of the fence with regard to evolution. |
| 07:04.05 | Jacolyte | maquis: einstein and hawking are both atheist. |
| 07:04.17 | fozzmoo | Einstein most certainly was NOT an atheist. |
| 07:04.25 | maquis | Jacolyte: could you please prove to me that einstein is an atheist? |
| 07:04.29 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: yes he is. |
| 07:04.32 | maquis | because i'd like to see that proof |
| 07:04.35 | Jacolyte | yes, give me one moment. |
| 07:04.46 | fozzmoo | is reading an Einstein biography right now. |
| 07:05.21 | fozzmoo | In fact, Einstein was so enamored with the beauty that he found through his work in science that he could not deny the existence of a God. |
| 07:05.47 | Jacolyte | http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion/print |
| 07:05.55 | Jacolyte | "In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."" |
| 07:06.02 | maquis | "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views." |
| 07:06.28 | maquis | the quote i just stuck in there was a quote by einstein on Aug 7, 1941 |
| 07:06.46 | fozzmoo | He didn't subscribe to any specific religion... |
| 07:07.12 | fozzmoo | In fact, he supported Zionism only because he had a great amount of respect for his heritage as a Jew, but didn't believe in the religion so much. |
| 07:07.23 | fozzmoo | As a child and a teen, he was VERY religious. |
| 07:07.38 | fozzmoo | But he balked at those who would paint him as an atheist. |
| 07:07.42 | fozzmoo | I think we could say he was a deist. |
| 07:07.46 | maquis | here's another quote from him: |
| 07:07.53 | maquis | "I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being t |
| 07:08.08 | fozzmoo | He didn't believe in a God that would meddle in a particular person's day to day life. |
| 07:08.11 | maquis | http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/spinoza.html#spinozasgod |
| 07:08.28 | maquis | http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/atheism.html |
| 07:08.29 | fozzmoo | yes. he shared beliefs with the philosopher Spinoza |
| 07:08.33 | fozzmoo | maquis: Nice find. |
| 07:08.56 | fozzmoo | i think Einstein is a good example of how someone who studies biology can still be a religious person. |
| 07:08.59 | Jacolyte | maquis: tell me, does this make evolution false? |
| 07:09.10 | maquis | Jacolyte: i never said evolution is false |
| 07:09.11 | fozzmoo | That their study of biology reinforces their belief in a God. |
| 07:09.19 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: : And neither did I. :) |
| 07:09.22 | maquis | certainly, i'm not going to say it |
| 07:09.42 | Jacolyte | I never said you that you said it was false. |
| 07:09.44 | Jacolyte | I'm simply asking |
| 07:09.50 | maquis | in my mind, evolution and creation do not directly contradict each other |
| 07:09.56 | fozzmoo | I don't believe evolution is false at all... It may very well be the natural order of things and, if so, it is a way that our heavenly father uses to produce life on this planet. |
| 07:09.58 | Jacolyte | yes they do. |
| 07:10.02 | fozzmoo | maquis: Exactly. |
| 07:10.13 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Only if you choose to make them contradict each other. |
| 07:10.45 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: everything we know starts simple, then becomes complex. |
| 07:10.48 | Jacolyte | the big bang for example. |
| 07:11.06 | fozzmoo | of course, my religion differs from just about every other religion in believing that God is not above the laws of the universe. |
| 07:11.08 | Jacolyte | it started out with only one element, hydrogen IIRC |
| 07:11.32 | Jacolyte | the beginning of life, which could have started many ways, started simply |
| 07:11.34 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Keep in mind that the Big Bang Theory is... just that... a THEORY. But, go ahead. ASSUMING that's true... |
| 07:11.43 | Jacolyte | amino acids, lipids, fatty acids |
| 07:11.52 | Jacolyte | nucleotides |
| 07:12.04 | Jacolyte | and these things were produced from even simpler chemicals |
| 07:12.14 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Sure. An amazingly simple reaction... maybe God designed it that way. :) |
| 07:12.31 | Jacolyte | yes, there's proof of it, Miller and Urey have created the building blocks of life from non life |
| 07:12.35 | Jacolyte | 4 basic elements |
| 07:12.41 | Jacolyte | my point is |
| 07:12.43 | fozzmoo | Sometimes I wonder if atheist believe "if it can be understood by man, it can not be from a God." |
| 07:12.57 | Jacolyte | how does an extremely complex being that you call god, come out of nowhere? |
| 07:13.14 | Jacolyte | there's no one above him, right? |
| 07:13.20 | Jacolyte | so how did he get there? |
| 07:13.28 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Can you prove that an intelligence could not exist outside our universe? |
| 07:13.35 | maquis | fozzmoo: given that Hawking is the one that came up with the big bang theory, and he happens to be a deist.... |
| 07:13.36 | fozzmoo | I certainly can not prove that. |
| 07:14.00 | maquis | then i'd say there's a good chance that the big bang theory and the idea of a God do not contradict each other either |
| 07:14.17 | Jacolyte | maquis: that doesn't prove there is a god. |
| 07:14.23 | fozzmoo | While questioning the nature of God is fun, I find it really comes down to this: There's still a seemingly infinite amount we simply do not know about the universe. |
| 07:14.28 | maquis | Jacolyte: no... |
| 07:14.39 | maquis | but you did say earlier that neither einstein nor hawking believed in a god |
| 07:14.49 | fozzmoo | Observations of the known universe say nothing about the existence of God. |
| 07:15.02 | Jacolyte | sure I did. |
| 07:15.09 | Jacolyte | does that disprove that there is no god? |
| 07:15.09 | maquis | and i'm pointing out that you're wrong |
| 07:15.32 | maquis | no... i'd argue that you can't prove that god does not exist |
| 07:15.36 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: It only proves that you simply can't use science to say there is no God. |
| 07:15.37 | maquis | i can't prove to you that he does |
| 07:15.55 | maquis | you have faith that he does not exist |
| 07:16.00 | maquis | i have faith that he does exist |
| 07:16.00 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: just like you can't use science to say that we don't live in the matrix. |
| 07:16.27 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: just like you can't use science to say unicorns or leprechauns don't exist. |
| 07:16.32 | maquis | we both have our own beliefs and we both have experiences leading us to those views |
| 07:16.34 | fozzmoo | i've read there are neuroscientists that, by shocking a certain part of the brain, can make a patient believe they've had an out of body or spiritual experience. |
| 07:16.54 | fozzmoo | Some people would say that suggests there is no god. Just brain chemistry fooling us. |
| 07:17.29 | fozzmoo | That may be true. Or... God uses that part of our brain in a way that we are able to have spiritual experiences. |
| 07:17.48 | fozzmoo | It's all... kind of useless to argue about. |
| 07:17.53 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: we have yet to see an invisible man tickling someone's brain. |
| 07:18.14 | fozzmoo | Not sure how we'd see an invisible man in the first place. :) |
| 07:18.33 | maquis | Jacolyte: just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist |
| 07:18.34 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: not sure how we'd know we were in the matrix either. |
| 07:18.35 | maquis | that's all i'm saying |
| 07:18.39 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: Agreed. |
| 07:18.46 | maquis | you have faith that God doesn't exist |
| 07:18.51 | maquis | i have faith that he does |
| 07:18.53 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean there's reason to think it exists. |
| 07:19.13 | fozzmoo | Nope. No reason. Just faith. |
| 07:19.14 | Jacolyte | maquis: faith is belief without evidence. so far I've seen no evidence of an invisible man. |
| 07:19.24 | Jacolyte | therefor I'm not going on faith. |
| 07:19.28 | fozzmoo | Very well. |
| 07:19.29 | maquis | Jacolyte: so you have hard evidence that god doesn't exist? |
| 07:19.37 | maquis | because you seem to believe that he doesn't |
| 07:19.47 | Jacolyte | then I guess I have to have faith that we're not in the matrix |
| 07:19.53 | Jacolyte | and have faith that vampires and unicorns don't exist. |
| 07:20.03 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: I can say that if you had the experiences I've had, it's very likely you'd either be a religious person or you'd be miserable for not being a religious person. :) |
| 07:20.03 | maquis | personally, i feel that i do have personal evidence |
| 07:20.05 | Jacolyte | I guess I have to believe strongly without evidence that the boogey man doesn't exist. |
| 07:20.07 | maquis | not evidence that i can hand to you |
| 07:20.24 | maquis | or show to you |
| 07:20.28 | maquis | but i do have evidence |
| 07:20.41 | Jacolyte | maquis: if it can't be reproduced, repeatead, or is consistent across multiple people, it's not evidence. |
| 07:20.43 | fozzmoo | I, for one, am grateful my relgion actually encourages us to question things. |
| 07:20.54 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: lawl, funny |
| 07:21.05 | maquis | Jacolyte: well, it's reproducable and repeatable... and there are plenty of othre people who've had similar / the same experiences |
| 07:21.17 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: What about the studies that suggest that prayer actually improves recovery for patients under medical treatment? |
| 07:21.18 | Jacolyte | maquis: then why do some people say that their god is black? |
| 07:21.37 | fozzmoo | Why do some people say their God is a mouse? |
| 07:21.43 | maquis | Jacolyte: i don't know what God looks like. I haven't seen him |
| 07:21.47 | fozzmoo | Why do some people say there is no God? |
| 07:21.55 | Jacolyte | fozzmoo: because it's absurd |
| 07:22.00 | maquis | i only know what i've experienced |
| 07:22.00 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 07:22.29 | fozzmoo | If a God existed, outside of our reality, could anyone really know what that God looked like? |
| 07:22.36 | fozzmoo | Dunno. |
| 07:22.44 | Jacolyte | then all of those people must be liars. |
| 07:22.45 | fozzmoo | But let's talk about it and waste our time. |
| 07:22.54 | Jacolyte | who say they've seen a god |
| 07:23.12 | fozzmoo | Not me. |
| 07:23.38 | fozzmoo | Unless movies count. :) |
| 07:24.18 | fozzmoo | Oh boy. I have church in 7.5 hours. ;-) |
| 07:24.32 | maquis | yeah... i've got it in 8.5 hours |
| 07:24.34 | fozzmoo | It's been fun, Jacolyte. |
| 07:24.38 | maquis | and i'm still working on some stuff for primary |
| 07:24.38 | Jacolyte | To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldnât be wrong to ask. - Geoff Mather |
| 07:24.59 | fozzmoo | Mather's an arrogant idiot. |
| 07:25.07 | maquis | i don't know who mather is |
| 07:25.07 | Jacolyte | doesn't make his quote any less valid |
| 07:25.44 | fozzmoo | I think agnosticism is a far intellectually superior belief than atheism. |
| 07:26.02 | Jacolyte | atheism goes hand in hand with agnosticism |
| 07:26.06 | fozzmoo | No. |
| 07:26.06 | Jacolyte | and science |
| 07:26.08 | Jacolyte | yes |
| 07:26.13 | fozzmoo | Agnosticism just means you don't care. :) |
| 07:26.20 | Jacolyte | no it doesn't |
| 07:26.22 | fozzmoo | I've subscribed to that a few times. |
| 07:26.34 | Jacolyte | agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to know either |
| 07:26.39 | Jacolyte | and it is |
| 07:26.43 | fozzmoo | One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any knowledge |
| 07:27.04 | fozzmoo | neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personalDeity |
| 07:27.10 | fozzmoo | uncertain of all claims to knowledge |
| 07:27.12 | Jacolyte | just like it's impossible to know if we truly live inside of an inescapable computer program known as the matrix |
| 07:27.27 | Jacolyte | also, science doesn't deal in absolutes |
| 07:27.29 | fozzmoo | That's different than saying "I know there is no such thing as a God." That's atheism. |
| 07:27.42 | Jacolyte | I can be certain there is no invisible man in the sky |
| 07:27.54 | fozzmoo | Jacolyte: You're making me very much want to watch The Matrix again. :) |
| 07:28.00 | Jacolyte | I can also be certain that it is impossible to know if there truly is a creator of the universe |
| 07:28.15 | fozzmoo | Alright. G'night. |
| 07:28.19 | Jacolyte | see ya |
| 07:28.21 | fozzmoo | maquis: Good luck with the lesson. |
| 07:28.30 | maquis | it's not a lesson, thankfully :) |
| 07:28.30 | *** part/#utah Jacolyte (n=Jacolyte@unaffiliated/jacolyte) |
| 07:28.31 | maquis | but thanks |
| 07:28.40 | fozzmoo | Sharing time? |
| 07:28.41 | maquis | i'm secretary, so i'm just trying to get a bunch of paperwork figured out |
| 07:28.44 | fozzmoo | ahhh. |
| 07:28.48 | maquis | yeah |
| 07:28.50 | fozzmoo | Good luck with the paperwork. :) |
| 07:28.57 | maquis | oping i don't get pulled into any work stuff |
| 07:28.59 | fozzmoo | it was fun. |
| 07:30.02 | maquis | *yawn* |
| 07:33.52 | xvalentinex | jacolyte: if your still around, rather than faith in the non existence of elves, it's more comparable to a faith that precognition does not exit |
| 07:33.55 | xvalentinex | *exist |
| 07:34.31 | xvalentinex | There is know way of knowing if it does or does not |
| 07:34.54 | xvalentinex | Rather a belief |
| 07:39.32 | xvalentinex | Crap my grammar has reached a new low, time for bed |
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| 17:26.51 | levi | Man, I'm glad I went to bed before that argument broke out. |
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| 21:45.04 | tensai | paints elg into a corner |
| 22:00.56 | elg | blows the paint dry and walks away unscathed |
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| 22:10.47 | sargun-palm | Typo jeans. |
| 22:11.07 | sargun-palm | ~date |
| 22:11.08 | ibot | It is now 2008.09.07 22:11:08 GMT |
| 22:11.08 | sargun-palm | ~time |
| 22:11.08 | ibot | 2008.09.07 22:11:08 GMT |
| 22:11.08 | sargun-palm | stupid bot. |
| 22:11.08 | sargun-palm | fastet |
| 22:12.12 | sargun-palm | ~abortion |
| 22:12.13 | ibot | well, abortion is LOTTO (THE REAL GOD) |
| 22:12.25 | elg | ~quote fred |
| 22:12.33 | sargun-palm | o.O |
| 22:12.36 | sargun-palm | ~freespeech |
| 22:12.37 | ibot | Speech Recognition. URL: http://freespeech.on.openprojects.net/ |
| 22:12.46 | sargun-palm | Who is fred? |
| 22:12.48 | sargun-palm | err |
| 22:12.55 | sargun-palm | what is fred |
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| 22:25.42 | sargun-palm | d00d |
| 22:26.13 | sargun-palm | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:26.15 | sargun-palm | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:26.34 | sargun-palm | ~date |
| 22:26.35 | ibot | It is now 2008.09.07 22:26:35 GMT |
| 22:27.02 | sargun-palm | almost over! |
| 22:35.30 | sargun-palm | ~date |
| 22:35.31 | ibot | It is now 2008.09.07 22:35:31 GMT |
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| 22:40.12 | sargun-palm | whoa |
| 22:40.14 | sargun-palm | lots of cons |
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