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| 00:31.08 | elg | hooray for upses |
| 00:40.54 | tensai | and downses! |
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| 01:35.31 | elg | -chat |
| 01:35.33 | brac | i haven't had the urge to install |
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| 03:34.20 | levi | Anyone still around? |
| 03:34.29 | Tene | yeah |
| 03:34.31 | Tene | what's up? |
| 03:36.12 | levi | Nothing, just taking a break from being Mr. Mom while my wife is recovering from having her tonsils out. |
| 03:36.22 | Tene | fun |
| 03:39.39 | levi | Hasn't been too bad for me, but it sucks to be her. :( |
| 03:40.21 | Tene | I'm working on a roguelike. |
| 03:40.55 | levi | Sounds delightfully useless. :) |
| 03:41.06 | Tene | a multiplayer roguelike! |
| 03:41.33 | levi | Even more so! :) |
| 03:48.49 | levi | Is it actually ascii-based, or graphical grid-based, or what? |
| 03:48.58 | Tene | ssh hax@pleasedieinafire.net |
| 03:49.01 | Tene | and see for yourself |
| 03:51.21 | Tene | Ooo... looks like I have a bug. |
| 03:51.57 | levi | Heh, yeah. Chatting no workie. |
| 03:52.34 | levi | It would be interesting to use something like that to set up a GMed RPG. |
| 03:52.58 | levi | It would be like playing with ascii miniatures! |
| 03:54.59 | Tene | fixes |
| 03:55.04 | Tene | Yes, it would be. |
| 03:57.59 | Tene | Right now the act of building it is the game for me. |
| 03:58.54 | Tene | I hope to build something fun, though. Most roguelikes have a few big issues that decrease their fun potential for me. |
| 03:59.04 | Tene | I have very little interest in traditional permadeath, for example. |
| 04:02.09 | levi | Yeah, that's a real pain. |
| 04:02.22 | levi | What are you writing it in? |
| 04:02.26 | Tene | Perl. |
| 04:02.56 | Tene | http://github.com/tene/cutegirls/tree/master if you want to take a look. |
| 04:02.57 | levi | That's what I guessed you were writing it in. |
| 04:03.22 | levi | cutegirls? |
| 04:03.33 | Tene | That's as good a name as any. |
| 04:12.22 | levi | So, is that Perl 6 code? |
| 04:13.35 | Tene | No, but I'm using Moose, which is a perl6-inspired OO system and a couple of modules to add some Perl 6 syntax. |
| 04:14.48 | levi | Hmm. I'm still not crazy about Perl syntax. |
| 04:15.52 | Tene | Yeah, after working with mainly Perl 6 on my parrot projects, some parts of Perl 5 syntax stand out quite a bit. |
| 04:16.15 | levi | What parts stand out to you? |
| 04:16.59 | Tene | -> is a lot less convenient to type than . |
| 04:16.59 | brac | fine |
| 04:17.03 | Tene | heh |
| 04:17.08 | Tene | Let's see what else I can remember. |
| 04:17.44 | Tene | No builtin syntax for helping to unpack subroutine arguments. |
| 04:19.13 | findlay | tensai: well, that was my reaction. "So you've inflated prices by burning off cash for your stockholders and you're using this as an astroturf to generate support for your schemes to claim large volumes of the world's drillable oil previously unavailable for environmental reasons? Yeah right! Viva la alternative energy" |
| 04:20.22 | Tene | I can't find anything else, but I've been working with perl 5 all day every day for the past week straight. |
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| 04:22.04 | Tene | levi: I'm curious to hear what you have to say about it. |
| 04:26.19 | levi | Well, I think the -> and manually pulling args out of _@ or whatever it is are annoying bits, indeed. |
| 04:26.39 | levi | I also don't like implicit arguments in general, but maybe that's just because I'm not used to it. |
| 04:27.07 | levi | A lot of my perl dislikes are probably due to lack of familiarity. |
| 04:28.24 | Tene | That's being made explicit in Perl 6. |
| 04:28.30 | Tene | Well, kind of. |
| 04:29.05 | Tene | Depending on what you're referring to. |
| 04:44.10 | levi | Well, like you had a for loop with an expression, and then some of the following statements had no arguments, like 'chomp'. |
| 04:44.19 | Tene | ah |
| 04:44.22 | levi | I look at that and think, 'chomp what?' |
| 04:44.33 | levi | And then I remember, 'oh, that implicit variable' |
| 04:44.42 | Tene | Yes, in Perl 6 that would be .chomp |
| 04:44.52 | Tene | .method is short for $_.method |
| 04:50.20 | Tene | There are still things like $_ being the default name for the loop variable in a for loop if you don't specify an explicit name. |
| 04:50.25 | Tene | And given/when |
| 04:51.30 | levi | I imagine lots of people would be mad if that were removed. |
| 04:56.49 | findlay | heh |
| 04:58.09 | Sargun | ~ping |
| 04:58.10 | ibot | pong |
| 04:58.19 | Tene | ping |
| 04:58.26 | Sargun | pong |
| 05:01.33 | atoponce | pang |
| 05:01.44 | findlay | pung |
| 05:02.00 | atoponce | peng? |
| 05:03.43 | atoponce | does mac os x have runlevels? |
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| 05:04.43 | findlay | I bet they call them dimensions or something funky and 'thought-different' like that |
| 05:05.15 | atoponce | 'who -r' shows i'm in runlevel 3 |
| 05:05.34 | atoponce | but 'init' and 'telinit' don't exist |
| 05:05.49 | tensai | is there an inittab? |
| 05:06.04 | tensai | what has pid 1? |
| 05:06.25 | findlay | yh |
| 05:06.28 | atoponce | nope |
| 05:06.35 | findlay | the big, bad red guy |
| 05:06.41 | atoponce | launchd is the initialization process |
| 05:07.04 | atoponce | http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html |
| 05:07.05 | brac | [Getting Started with launchd] |
| 05:07.22 | atoponce | Sargun: it printed something about my url! |
| 05:07.43 | findlay | http://url.com |
| 05:08.40 | Sargun | http://slashdot.org |
| 05:08.44 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us |
| 05:08.49 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/index.html |
| 05:08.51 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/index.php |
| 05:08.56 | Sargun | ugh |
| 05:08.58 | Sargun | piece of junk. |
| 05:09.00 | atoponce | here go the links |
| 05:09.00 | nick125_bb | fail |
| 05:09.08 | Sargun | nick125_bb, shutup |
| 05:09.24 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/index.php?q=tracker |
| 05:09.29 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/index.php?q=node/12 |
| 05:09.32 | Sargun | ugh |
| 05:09.54 | atoponce | Sargun: why is it so important to you that brac prints the title of your url? |
| 05:11.17 | Sargun | I just want to see him to it |
| 05:11.19 | Sargun | that nasty bot. |
| 05:11.42 | atoponce | he must not like you |
| 05:11.53 | tensai | he very well could have Sargun ignored |
| 05:11.57 | Sargun | possibly. |
| 05:12.02 | tensai | http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html |
| 05:12.03 | brac | [Getting Started with launchd] |
| 05:12.04 | nick125_bb | probably |
| 05:12.08 | Sargun | http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html |
| 05:12.09 | brac | [Getting Started with launchd] |
| 05:12.13 | Sargun | Or not.... |
| 05:12.15 | Sargun | Piece of junk. |
| 05:12.17 | Sargun | Stupid bot. |
| 05:12.26 | Tene | He was excluded because he was screwing with it by posting links to scripts that generated things in the <title> |
| 05:12.27 | tensai | http://xbmodder.us/index.html |
| 05:12.36 | Tene | iirc |
| 05:12.55 | Sargun | Tene, No, that was ibot, ibot is ignored by brac |
| 05:13.10 | Sargun | and somebody fixed brac by putting brackets around the URL |
| 05:13.26 | tensai | http://xbmodder.us |
| 05:13.37 | atoponce | http://google.com |
| 05:14.00 | Sargun | http://album.xbmodder.us/55south/tn/img_0232.jpg.html |
| 05:14.01 | brac | [Album: img 0232] |
| 05:14.11 | Sargun | hmm. |
| 05:14.16 | tensai | http://www.zmonkey.org/ |
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| 05:14.39 | atoponce | i still don't get the point. just extra noise in the channel, that really could be done without |
| 05:14.42 | tensai | brac showed up in my apache logs |
| 05:14.43 | Sargun | http://10.0.0.1/tmp/gah.html |
| 05:14.50 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/tmp/gah.html |
| 05:15.06 | Sargun | iuhm. |
| 05:15.29 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/tmp/brac/gah.html |
| 05:15.38 | Sargun | Ok.... |
| 05:15.42 | Sargun | weird weird bot. |
| 05:16.03 | tensai | atoponce: in general I think it's a nice feature. just not so much when Sargun (ab)uses it. |
| 05:16.23 | lakshmi | hey |
| 05:16.23 | lakshmi | Sargun |
| 05:16.25 | Sargun | http://album.xbmodder.us/index.html |
| 05:16.45 | Sargun | http://album.xbmodder.us/rack/index.html |
| 05:17.04 | atoponce | Sargun: it would be nice if you did all the link spam in pm with brac |
| 05:17.16 | findlay | -chat link spam |
| 05:17.29 | Sargun | doesn't work in PM |
| 05:17.58 | brac | [Album: htdocs] |
| 05:17.59 | brac | [Album: rack] |
| 05:18.01 | brac | link spam in the early 00's |
| 05:18.02 | Sargun | Ok. |
| 05:18.04 | Sargun | Weird. |
| 05:18.06 | Sargun | Stupid bot. |
| 05:18.40 | Sargun | http://album.xbmodder.us/rack/index.html |
| 05:18.40 | brac | [Album: rack] |
| 05:18.58 | atoponce | yay. it works. done now? |
| 05:19.06 | Sargun | No, I'll do it in the morning |
| 05:19.17 | Sargun | when you all are asleep, getting ready, or at work. |
| 05:19.59 | atoponce | i guess mac os x doesn't do runlevels... at all. |
| 05:20.15 | atoponce | so, the next question is, can i kill the gui? have a headless machine? |
| 05:20.56 | tensai | I'm gonna guess the answer is "no" |
| 05:21.25 | atoponce | isn't it unix? |
| 05:22.09 | tensai | in theory |
| 05:22.56 | atoponce | http://lists.apple.com/archives/macos-x-server/2002/Nov/msg00471.html |
| 05:22.57 | brac | [Re: Boot directly into console/terminal mode (no GUI)] |
| 05:24.53 | atoponce | a bit old, though. mac os x seems to change major underlying features of the os at every release |
| 05:25.23 | tensai | my /etc/ttys has that line though. seems like it might work. |
| 05:25.34 | atoponce | tests |
| 05:26.52 | atoponce | nope. in the gui |
| 05:27.59 | Sargun | Warning to Brac's owner: your bot accepts gzipped content. Don't know if it uncompresses |
| 05:28.08 | Sargun | but that could easily kill the bot. |
| 05:28.31 | Sargun | Now go fix it |
| 05:28.38 | nick125_bb | they might use a nice library to handle it :) |
| 05:30.04 | nick125_bb | doesn't gzip require the entire document to be loaded before it can uncompress or is it one of those stream uncompressable formats? I can't remember off hand. |
| 05:30.59 | Sargun | Its block based compression |
| 05:31.10 | Sargun | you can load a block, and then decompress |
| 05:31.19 | Sargun | but remember 6 megs is about 10G decompressed |
| 05:31.44 | Sargun | you can always do the "infinity file" hack |
| 05:32.02 | Sargun | or the very large well crafted gz |
| 05:32.21 | Sargun | nick125_bb, I wrote some exploit code for this a while ago |
| 05:32.42 | Sargun | most browsers don't necessarily malloc() the output buffer |
| 05:33.01 | tensai | "6 megs is about 10G"? maybe for certain definitions of "6 megs". |
| 05:33.32 | nick125_bb | its possible to compress 10GB of nothing into 6MB.. |
| 05:33.44 | Sargun | yeah |
| 05:33.56 | Sargun | 10G of \x00s |
| 05:34.00 | tensai | yes. but not all piles of data 10GB in size can be compressed to 6MB |
| 05:34.05 | Sargun | of course you can craft it even smaller |
| 05:34.15 | atoponce | i'd like to see gzip do that sort of compressing |
| 05:34.15 | Sargun | tensai, We're talking in the case of exploit code. |
| 05:34.36 | atoponce | best i've seen is with plain text at about 5% the original size |
| 05:34.58 | atoponce | that's hardly 6MB from 10GB |
| 05:35.18 | Sargun | gah. |
| 05:35.25 | Sargun | we're talking in for a crafted gz file. |
| 05:35.32 | Sargun | and crafted data source. |
| 05:35.49 | tensai | atoponce: what Sargun isn't explaining well is that certain sets of data can be heavily compressed |
| 05:35.58 | nick125_bb | What about 10GB of /dev/zero? |
| 05:36.28 | tensai | 10MB of /dev/zero compresses to 10K |
| 05:37.14 | atoponce | let's find out. buliding a 10GB file of /dev/zero now... |
| 05:37.28 | Sargun | atoponce, gzip -9 |
| 05:37.38 | Sargun | I wonder if you manipulate ISIZE in a gz file it'll decompress successfully |
| 05:37.43 | nick125_bb | Yeah. Gzip and such aren't linear in the compression ratios. It all depends on what you're compressing. |
| 05:37.44 | atoponce | ok. i'll bzip -9 also, just for comparison |
| 05:38.20 | Sargun | Anyone know of any good hex editors for Linux? |
| 05:38.48 | nick125_bb | I've used ghex (I think that's the name of it) and it worked fine. |
| 05:39.05 | tensai | I use khex and it suffices |
| 05:39.30 | tensai | 1G -> 1M with no options |
| 05:40.32 | nick125_bb | so, even with that, it would be theoretically possible to fit 10GB in 10MB. |
| 05:41.22 | atoponce | currently making a copy of 'big.txt', so i have something to gzip and bzip2 |
| 05:41.30 | atoponce | too bad i don't have rzip installed... |
| 05:42.11 | nick125_bb | you should use pigzip too. It has an amazing compressor, but the decompressor is still in the works :D |
| 05:42.54 | Sargun | lzma |
| 05:46.56 | nick125_bb | The Pigzip algorithm is really simple too. |
| 05:49.08 | atoponce | dd if=/dev/zero of=big.txt bs=1024 count=10000000 |
| 05:49.11 | Sargun | lol |
| 05:49.18 | atoponce | ls -lh big.txt -> 9.5G |
| 05:49.25 | atoponce | gzip -9 big.txt |
| 05:49.37 | atoponce | ls -lh big.txt.gz -> 9.5M |
| 05:50.39 | atoponce | ls -lh big-2.txt |
| 05:50.44 | atoponce | 9.5G |
| 05:50.53 | atoponce | bzip2 big-2.txt (still running) |
| 05:50.59 | atoponce | meh |
| 05:51.03 | atoponce | cancels |
| 05:51.24 | atoponce | we want bzip2 -9 |
| 05:56.05 | tensai | bzip2 -9 100M -> 113 bytes |
| 05:56.19 | tensai | I would assume you'll get similar since bzip2 -9 1M was 45 |
| 05:56.52 | atoponce | ls -lh big-2.txt.bz2 -> 7.0K |
| 05:57.12 | nick125_bb | whoa. |
| 05:57.23 | atoponce | i must say, i'm impressed |
| 05:57.56 | nick125_bb | too |
| 05:58.22 | tensai | gzip and gzip -9 of 100M both result in 101796 bytes, but the md5sum is different. interesting. |
| 05:58.50 | tensai | bzip2 and bzip2 -9 result in the same md5sum |
| 06:00.12 | nick125_bb | hmm..that really is interesting. I wonder why. |
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| 15:34.28 | findlay | hello |
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| 15:41.17 | decriptor | don't know if anyone is interested, but there is a presentation on multiscreen in #opensuse-gnome by one of the developers |
| 15:48.09 | elg | atoponce: why blame linux for you hanging out with the wrong crowd? |
| 15:57.52 | whiteinge | feels superior to non-Linux users |
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| 16:00.54 | whiteinge | atoponce likes to write inflamatory posts to boost his google ad click-throughs |
| 16:08.37 | fozzmoo | NO way! |
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| 16:26.16 | elg | discovers a buffer overflow in paf |
| 16:28.25 | atoponce | whiteinge: what click-throughs? |
| 16:29.55 | whiteinge | Oh, please atoponce, they've got be on there somewhere. How else could be making the mad dough? I'm on to your scheme! |
| 16:34.14 | jsmith | elg: w00t! Is it exploitable? |
| 16:34.22 | elg | not sure |
| 16:34.28 | jsmith | elg: (Maybe that'll get them to release an updated version!) |
| 16:34.29 | elg | it makes it crash |
| 16:35.14 | elg | but gedcom lines are supposedly limited to 255 chars, and if they truncate each line to 255 chars before doing the tag-specific processing that means you'd only have 255 chars to work with to do the exploit |
| 16:35.37 | jsmith | elg: Who can't fit a no-op slide into 255 characters? |
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| 16:36.22 | elg | well that depends on the slide doesn't it? :) |
| 16:36.32 | elg | which in turn depends on where in memory this stuff is happening |
| 16:36.56 | atoponce | elg: what wrong crowds would those be? |
| 16:37.26 | atoponce | oalug? ubuntu-utah? utahpython? sllug? plug? ubuntuforums? |
| 16:37.36 | atoponce | picks on elg |
| 16:37.41 | elg | it's the REFN tag, called custom id in paf. if it's more than 10 chars, paf seems to handle it ok (displays it in the custom id field) but then when you click on notes for that individual, it crashes. |
| 16:37.49 | elg | you tell me. I don't see what you claim to see |
| 16:38.18 | whiteinge | thinks the oalug group is a bit too rowdy |
| 16:38.20 | elg | you see linux users as a bunch of immature windows bashers. I see some linux users like that, true, but not all or representative |
| 16:38.22 | atoponce | you've never seen M$? |
| 16:38.46 | elg | what of it? |
| 16:38.50 | JoshH | loobix roolz window$ droolz! |
| 16:38.55 | elg | i've seen a lot on the big bad intarwebs |
| 16:39.09 | atoponce | ok. that's all i'm addressing. the bashing is immature |
| 16:39.14 | elg | just because someone is easily amused doesn't define the linux community |
| 16:39.48 | elg | bsd users are an odd lot in their own right, but they're not very attractive to younger people. most bsd users are bsd users historically |
| 16:40.01 | whiteinge | what if it's a lot of people in the community that is easily amused? |
| 16:40.06 | elg | when they were young they probably wrote M$ too. or made jokes about IBM and ASCII and the devil or something. |
| 16:40.11 | levi | atoponce: I left a comment on your latest blog entry, blaming the difference in cultures on RMS and his anti-'Free' hate. |
| 16:40.45 | levi | BSD had its culture set before RMS decided he needed a Unix kernel. |
| 16:40.46 | elg | i think it doesn't have to be more complicated than it is: a lot of linux users are, in fact, immature |
| 16:41.06 | whiteinge | but that's exactly what atoponce said in his blog... |
| 16:41.12 | atoponce | again, that's all i'm addressing. just to grow up. that's all |
| 16:41.17 | elg | no, he made a stereotype |
| 16:41.23 | elg | they will, when they actually grow up |
| 16:41.35 | elg | the linux community is not defined by its younger immature vocal group |
| 16:41.40 | atoponce | i may have painted the whole community in that light, but it's certainly not far from the truth |
| 16:42.17 | elg | when was the last time linux journal bashed windows? other reputable linux communities (not /.)? |
| 16:42.19 | atoponce | i'm just trying to show a mentality, is all. those who do something because they despise the other is unfortunate |
| 16:42.39 | elg | what about people who bash windows bashers because they despise windows bashing? ;-) |
| 16:42.40 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@72.8.99.158) |
| 16:42.44 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 16:43.03 | atoponce | the linux journal has a corporate image to keep |
| 16:43.14 | atoponce | and they are not representative of the community either |
| 16:43.26 | elg | atoponce: the only defense against immaturity is having some image to keep that doesn't tolerate immaturity |
| 16:44.43 | atoponce | levi: i agree with your comment somewhat. rms is very influential, and also very misunderstood |
| 16:44.44 | levi | Anyway, the deep-seated hatred of Microsoft in particular is probably a combination of FSF anti-free hate along with holding a grudge against Microsoft for its attempts to completely control the OS market. |
| 16:45.16 | elg | a lot of linux users aren't as vocal anymore, though still every bit as involved, dedicated, helpful, etc. probably more helpful in forms of contributions to the actual workings. they get older and the boisterous interactions get less attractive. it happened to me (even though I still occasionally partake in a plug flame war). the guys "a generation" up from me, like thayne, etc. have all but disappeared |
| 16:45.25 | elg | even jayce doesn't post much these days on plug. :) |
| 16:45.26 | levi | atoponce: He's misunderstood because he's an ass, and people don't generally try to give an ass the benefit of the doubt. |
| 16:45.27 | findlay | I, for one, have a shallow-seated loathing of microsoft |
| 16:45.41 | atoponce | levi: heh |
| 16:45.45 | elg | and yet one day even findlay may mellow out. :) |
| 16:46.16 | elg | levi: helped along by the fact that most linux devotees have had serious frustration issues with MS products in the past |
| 16:46.31 | levi | elg: That too. |
| 16:46.32 | elg | whether that frustration automatically makes MS evil or not |
| 16:47.32 | levi | Well, stuff like 'Micro$oft' are clearly either due to a Free Software sentiment or annoyance towards their business practices. |
| 16:48.02 | elg | windows 3.1 hated me. I had to reinstall it dozens of times as a teenager. but without the constant fighting back, my computer would have Just Worked and I wouldn't have had the challenge and I might not be in computers today |
| 16:48.28 | findlay | levi: you mean Mickey$$$oft? |
| 16:48.52 | levi | There's a large and vocal group of Free Software supporters in the Linux community, and Microsoft is practically the devil in FSF propaganda pieces. |
| 16:49.03 | elg | all i'm sayin' is that the voices of sanity are easy to ignore but make up no less a portion of the community as a result. |
| 16:50.19 | levi | elg: I agree, there are probably more mature users of Linux than immature ones, but it's just not clear from the evidence, since they are too busy with their lives to make a lot of noise online. |
| 16:50.41 | elg | preciso |
| 16:51.10 | levi | If one defines the 'Linux community' as the people who come together online to talk about Linux, though (the ones who don't aren't really communing, are they?), then the picture changes a bit. |
| 16:51.14 | bugQ | thus windows users look clueless, mac users look pretentious, and linux users look zealous |
| 16:51.47 | elg | i don't run for city council, I barely know what my neighbors look like, but I'm still part of my community |
| 16:52.03 | bugQ | i.e. superficially |
| 16:52.08 | elg | and those of us who use all three... clueless pretentious zealots! |
| 16:52.24 | whiteinge | The FSF also has a "coporate" image to maintain. They do a good job of calling MS out for playing unfair without looking nutty. |
| 16:52.31 | elg | includes himself in that group temporarily thanks to vmware and paf |
| 16:52.46 | levi | whiteinge: The FSF doesn't do a very good job of not looking nutty. |
| 16:53.05 | whiteinge | I completely disagree. |
| 16:53.27 | bugQ | of course it doesn't look nutty to its supporters |
| 16:53.35 | bugQ | it's just another evangelism |
| 16:54.01 | elg | what I want to know is what happened to the real sjansen. |
| 16:54.47 | levi | Defective By Design is pretty darn nutty. |
| 16:54.50 | atoponce | elg: community, or neighborhood? (referring to your comment about city council, etc) |
| 16:55.10 | elg | both |
| 16:55.16 | atoponce | i would think community requires envolvement, where neighborhood is location |
| 16:55.30 | elg | ~dict community |
| 16:55.41 | elg | ~dict 1 community |
| 16:55.41 | levi | Encouraging people to perform a denial of service attack on Apple Store Genius Bars is pretty darned nutty. |
| 16:55.43 | fozzmoo | envolvement? |
| 16:55.53 | atoponce | s/s e/s i/ |
| 16:55.57 | elg | i'll spare the group, you can look it up in your own dictionary |
| 16:56.37 | atoponce | or is it 'neighbourhood' :) |
| 16:56.47 | bugQ | look at the latin root, it's about commonality |
| 16:56.49 | elg | mine has several definitions which support my earlier statements, and ones which support non-vocal members being full-fledged members of the implicit community: "a group of people having a religion, race, profession, or other particular characteristic in common" |
| 16:56.57 | bugQ | anything you can say that you share with someone else |
| 16:57.38 | elg | if you want to single out the zealots, then call them for what they are. but then the post gets kind of boring. "the zealots say M$" is kind of like a tautology |
| 16:58.00 | atoponce | at any event, interesting discussion |
| 16:58.25 | atoponce | i'm just tired of seeing it on mailing lists, rss feeds, forums posts, irc channels, general chat, etc |
| 16:58.27 | levi | elg: Sure, but consider a historian's task to determine the values of a community. How to tell what their values are other than the writings they produce? |
| 16:58.31 | atoponce | so, it sparked the post |
| 16:58.55 | elg | levi: indeed. would that history could be an exact science |
| 16:58.57 | levi | elg: The non-vocal members produce no record, and their values are lost. |
| 16:59.11 | elg | that doesn't mean they weren't there nor part of the community |
| 16:59.25 | bugQ | which is why society looks more stupid than it did |
| 16:59.26 | elg | in fact, if one is astute enough one could infer their existence by the fact that things actually got done |
| 17:00.01 | levi | Well, RMS actually got a whole lot of stuff done before he decided to do crusading full-time. |
| 17:00.04 | elg | physicists infer stuff they can't see directly all the time. surely historians potentially could do so as well |
| 17:01.01 | bugQ | we have writings of the lives of the proletariat, they just aren't as interesting and are ignored |
| 17:01.20 | findlay | man, try to save a page of gmail then load it from your local computer |
| 17:01.21 | elg | history curses the boring |
| 17:01.23 | findlay | javascript death |
| 17:01.58 | elg | but at least they're dead. sometimes the present curses the not-boring |
| 17:02.02 | elg | I think i'll take the former. ;-) |
| 17:02.19 | bugQ | obscurity for all! |
| 17:02.46 | elg | (but if anyone calls me boring I'll have maquis kick them) |
| 17:02.56 | *** mode/#utah [+o maquis] by ChanServ |
| 17:04.31 | bugQ | obscurity is harder to come by, the Interwebs are recording our every move |
| 17:05.07 | elg | arguably that makes obscurity no harder to come by |
| 17:05.21 | bugQ | maybe |
| 17:05.30 | elg | though it does make disappearing more difficult |
| 17:05.42 | elg | for those that know that they want to find you |
| 17:06.00 | levi | The FSF's insistence that the iPod/iPhone's lack of playing Ogg/FLAC is a major defect is laughable. |
| 17:06.20 | bugQ | elg: yup, we're catching criminals by cell phone now |
| 17:07.35 | synic | rsimpkins: ping |
| 17:07.46 | elg | -chat then there |
| 17:07.46 | brac | then there is no such file or directory |
| 17:08.03 | elg | -chat ding dong |
| 17:08.03 | brac | ding dong the wicked witch. Ding dong |
| 17:08.13 | elg | -chat what an |
| 17:08.14 | brac | what an object (sort of), without any problems with ubuntu 8.04 here |
| 17:08.15 | whiteinge | levi: No way. As an iPhone owner I hate all the unecessary software restrictions placed on me. (But I can't defind DOSing the Genius Bar.) |
| 17:08.39 | whiteinge | s/defind/defend/ |
| 17:08.50 | elg | if i were a potential iphone owner i might have an opinion |
| 17:08.52 | whiteinge | is not having a great typing morning |
| 17:09.12 | bugQ | it's not like there aren't alternatives |
| 17:09.23 | whiteinge | bugQ: Like what? |
| 17:09.42 | levi | Apple wants to, at this point, have a lot of control over the experience you have when using the iPhone. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. |
| 17:09.44 | elg | no cell phone here. if I did, its required features would be: be a phone, address book, mp3 ringtones |
| 17:10.11 | bugQ | openmoko, android, symbian (going oper soon) |
| 17:10.17 | bugQ | s/oper/open/ |
| 17:10.30 | elg | as for a media player, my $80 (at the time I bought it) samsung plays ogg and doesn't have room for flac, so I'm set. |
| 17:10.41 | whiteinge | levi: I don't like it, but parts of the iPhone have made the trade off worthwhile. That doesn't mean I wouldn't still like to have more freedom. |
| 17:11.11 | whiteinge | bugQ: OpenMoko isn't a player. Android isn't out yet. Symbian doesn't have a good (enough) browser. |
| 17:11.43 | levi | whiteinge: Sure you would like it to be different, but that doesn't mean it's defective. |
| 17:11.58 | whiteinge | Sure it does. It's crippled on purpose. |
| 17:12.11 | levi | Define 'crippled' |
| 17:12.40 | whiteinge | Unusual software restrictions have been placed on iPhone users. |
| 17:13.08 | bugQ | they have liability to worry about |
| 17:13.21 | levi | If the iPhone was a PC, I might buy that argument. |
| 17:13.31 | whiteinge | bugQ: What liability? Explain. |
| 17:13.48 | levi | It's not, though. It's not marketed as a PC. It's a cell phone with extra cool media features. |
| 17:14.25 | levi | And it does exactly what it's advertised to do. If it were crippled, it would have some subset of its advertised features. |
| 17:14.33 | findlay | bugQ: you're obviously not drinking the kool aid, man |
| 17:14.36 | bugQ | well, not just liability, reliability. they are mortified at the idea of an iPhone worm |
| 17:15.10 | whiteinge | levi: Wrong. It's crippled compared to other smartphones. |
| 17:15.22 | levi | They are also mortified at the idea of the beautiful iPhone interface being sullied by applications that aren't up to their standards, though they have relented to the point where they're allowed. |
| 17:15.43 | levi | whiteinge: Perhapse *some* smartphones, in some areas. But many smartphones are, by your definition, 'crippled' compared to the iPhone. |
| 17:15.55 | findlay | crippled means restricting the device to something below it's potential capabilities |
| 17:16.10 | whiteinge | levi: Like what specifically? |
| 17:16.16 | levi | whiteinge: There's no set of baseline functionality that defines a smartphone, aside from making phone calls and doing some sort of PDA stuff too. |
| 17:16.18 | bugQ | android is crippled, then |
| 17:16.22 | findlay | it is |
| 17:16.55 | whiteinge | bugQ: I don't disagree with that. Arguably OpenMoko is the least crippled, but even still it is crippled. |
| 17:17.07 | levi | Besides, being crippled means that it's unable to do something that it was supposed to do. |
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| 17:17.23 | levi | Not that it might maybe have some potential to do if the software was written differently. |
| 17:17.42 | bugQ | you can't avoid choosing a platform that doesn't have 100% accessibility |
| 17:17.47 | elg | I might have been a high school basketball star. that I wasn't doesn't mean I'm crippled |
| 17:18.01 | whiteinge | levi: No, things that it is "suppposed to do" create teh baseline. Anything less and you have a product that isn't whole. |
| 17:18.11 | findlay | and since nobody knows the full capabilities of technology, everything that's not completely open is crippled |
| 17:18.21 | levi | whiteinge: Indeed. And the iPhone does exactly what it's supposed to do, thus it is not crippled. |
| 17:18.30 | levi | whiteinge: Apple gets to pick what the iPhone is supposed to do, not YOU. |
| 17:18.34 | elg | proves the iphone is a turing machine and puts the debate to rest |
| 17:18.36 | findlay | levi's definition is crippled :-) |
| 17:18.57 | elg | since the iphone is turing-complete, it can do anything any technology can do |
| 17:19.02 | elg | and is therefore not crippled by definiton |
| 17:19.09 | levi | ... |
| 17:19.21 | whiteinge | levi: No, the consumer should define what the device does. Otherwise as soon as mobile safari appears on a less crippled device everyone will change lanes. |
| 17:19.38 | findlay | elg: yeah! |
| 17:19.48 | levi | whiteinge: No, the producer of a product defines what a product will do. Consumers get to choose whether they buy it or not. |
| 17:19.51 | elg | nonsense, the consumer buys a device. the manufacturer defines what it does, the consumer buys it |
| 17:20.10 | levi | whiteinge: If the producer is smart, they will build a device that meets their market goals for consumers buying it. |
| 17:20.18 | levi | whiteinge: Apple, thus far, has been pretty smart. |
| 17:20.21 | whiteinge | The manufacturer is trying to appeal to customers. Therefore the customer defines what the device does. |
| 17:20.48 | levi | whiteinge: So, by that definition, the iPhone would be crippled if it didn't have enough features for it to meet sales projections. |
| 17:20.59 | levi | whiteinge: So far, your arguments aren't holding much water. |
| 17:21.07 | findlay | levi: maybe not for you |
| 17:21.11 | elg | i want my car to fly. it doesn't |
| 17:21.15 | elg | it's crippled |
| 17:21.19 | levi | elg: OMG, your car is crippled! |
| 17:21.23 | findlay | elg: take it back for a refund |
| 17:21.34 | levi | elg: Stage a protest at the car dealer! |
| 17:21.44 | whiteinge | Your car isn't capable of flying. The iPhone is capable of playing ogg. |
| 17:22.02 | findlay | agrees with whiteinge |
| 17:22.10 | levi | whiteinge: No, it's not. |
| 17:22.24 | levi | whiteinge: The iPhone is NOT capable of playing ogg because the software's not there. |
| 17:22.27 | elg | i want my cell phone to hack into government security. it doesn't (if I had one), so it's crippled |
| 17:22.29 | whiteinge | levi: Jailbreak one and see for yourself. |
| 17:22.30 | findlay | levi: you're so wrong |
| 17:22.31 | findlay | hehe |
| 17:22.37 | levi | whiteinge: The software is part of the device. |
| 17:22.49 | whiteinge | levi: so? |
| 17:23.01 | bugQ | ok, this is pointless now |
| 17:23.08 | findlay | an artificial argument is not an argument |
| 17:23.43 | levi | whiteinge: The whole package, as sold, is what the product is. When you replace the software in a way that wasn't intended, it's not an Apple iPhone anymore. |
| 17:24.10 | whiteinge | Who said anything about replacing software? I'm talking about adding to the exisiting device. |
| 17:24.31 | levi | If you took your toaster, and you stuck an mp3-playing chip and supporting circuitry in it, that wouldn't make that model of toaster capable of playing mp3s. |
| 17:24.43 | levi | That would make *your* particular toaster capable of playing mp3s. |
| 17:24.50 | levi | Because you added something to it. |
| 17:25.01 | levi | And that wouldn't make other toasters defective because they didn't play mp3s. |
| 17:25.17 | findlay | levi: you're a J. whiteinge and I are P, thus we're never going to agree |
| 17:25.31 | whiteinge | levi: Wrong. If the chip was easy to obtain and install then everyone could have an mp3 playing toast.er |
| 17:25.32 | levi | findlay: No, I am a P. |
| 17:25.43 | whiteinge | The reason the Palm Pilot was so successful is that development for the thing was *wide open*. Anyone could do anything. There were thousands of apps. |
| 17:25.47 | findlay | well you're not acting very P at the moment |
| 17:25.53 | levi | whiteinge: Everyone *could* have an mp3-playing toaster, but that wouldn't make the manufacturer's toaster capable of playing mp3s. |
| 17:26.17 | whiteinge | levi: Sure it would becaue the manufacturer made the toaster easily modifiable.' |
| 17:26.23 | levi | whiteinge: That was a choice made by Palm about what its product would be capable of. |
| 17:26.31 | elg | whiteinge: if it were so important and/or easy, there would be alternatives already |
| 17:26.33 | elg | or will be soon |
| 17:26.51 | levi | elg: There are. The 3g has already been hacked. |
| 17:26.55 | whiteinge | elg: I expect there will be. |
| 17:27.06 | levi | whiteinge is just whining that Apple isn't doing what he wants. |
| 17:27.11 | findlay | you mean defiled? :) |
| 17:27.16 | whiteinge | Once mobile browser on other devices mature the iPhone will be much less attractive. |
| 17:27.35 | levi | Not realizing that he's in a statistically insignificant minority of the market, and thus his arguments about what a product is and who defines it are nonsensical. |
| 17:27.39 | elg | but they must be crippled because they can't do what the iphone does |
| 17:28.09 | whiteinge | levi: Hardly insignificant. Apple released an SDK due to the initial outcry that there were no 3rd-party apps. |
| 17:28.21 | findlay | levi: you just have a different definition of crippled, that is all. Trying to force your definition on his argument is a little unfair |
| 17:28.35 | levi | findlay: No. His definition doesn't make any sense. |
| 17:28.44 | findlay | levi: to you |
| 17:28.49 | levi | It's essentially FUD. |
| 17:28.57 | elg | certainly the producer can listen to their customers. certainly customers can ask for what they want. that doesn't make the device crippled nor entitle the customers |
| 17:29.07 | whiteinge | levi: Feel free to live happily in a restricted world. I want something better. |
| 17:29.13 | levi | Which FSF zealots love to whine about when it's applied to them. So why should they apply it to others? |
| 17:29.18 | elg | whiteinge: and yet you bought an iphone |
| 17:29.23 | levi | whiteinge: I'm not restricted at all. I don't have to buy an iPhone. |
| 17:29.36 | findlay | levi: no, it isn't |
| 17:29.40 | whiteinge | elg: There aren't alternatives. As previously stated. |
| 17:29.55 | findlay | I'm not going to argue about this anymore |
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| 17:29.58 | elg | there's no good reason why there aren't. |
| 17:30.05 | levi | whiteinge: You're stubbornly illogical. |
| 17:30.07 | elg | except that they haven't come to market yet |
| 17:30.14 | elg | or that there's no real demand for them |
| 17:30.14 | whiteinge | levi: Than what do you use to surf while mobile? |
| 17:30.29 | levi | whiteinge: I don't 'surf while mobile'. |
| 17:30.53 | whiteinge | elg: I agree. As previously stated. Better alternatives will come. (Or Apple will open up.) |
| 17:31.07 | elg | sure |
| 17:31.26 | elg | so why does that make them crippled today? by that definition every cell phone ever created before now is also crippled |
| 17:31.30 | whiteinge | levi: Then why argue? |
| 17:31.49 | levi | whiteinge: Because I argue with FSF tools out of principle. :P |
| 17:32.01 | whiteinge | elg: Every cell phone (locked to a carrier) *is* cripppled. |
| 17:32.01 | elg | because it doesn't play pda, surf the web |
| 17:32.37 | elg | every toaster is crippled because it's not a toaster oven |
| 17:32.50 | elg | every 8086 pc is crippled because it's not a 386 |
| 17:33.00 | elg | every single-core pc is crippled because it's not multicore |
| 17:33.09 | whiteinge | elg: that doesn't make sense. |
| 17:33.11 | whiteinge | at all |
| 17:33.14 | elg | exactly |
| 17:33.36 | elg | the technology exists for all toasters to be toaster ovens |
| 17:34.20 | whiteinge | elg: none of those examples are the same devices |
| 17:34.34 | whiteinge | a smartphone is a smartphone |
| 17:35.03 | elg | a microwave without sensor reheat is crippled then? |
| 17:35.26 | elg | a car without anti-lock brakes? |
| 17:35.40 | whiteinge | levi: I'll keep that in mind for the future. While I appreciate exercising my argument, arguing with you *can* be a waste of time. |
| 17:35.52 | elg | a monitor without sjansen's insane resolution |
| 17:36.25 | bugQ | whiteinge: and so is any agrument if neither party can be enlightened |
| 17:36.43 | whiteinge | elg: no, those are missing physical features. the iphone has those features which are then locked after the fact. |
| 17:36.54 | levi | BTW, I fully recognize that the iPhone lacks potential features. I just don't agree that this makes it crippled. |
| 17:37.11 | whiteinge | fair enough :) |
| 17:37.28 | elg | whiteinge: so it has code to play ogg, but they locked it out? or it has the potential to add on code to play ogg and they lock that out? |
| 17:37.30 | whiteinge | I suspect you'd feel differently if you wanted a mobile browser as bad as I did. :) |
| 17:37.40 | whiteinge | levi ^^ |
| 17:38.10 | whiteinge | elg: what's the difference? it has the ability no matter where the software comes from. |
| 17:38.29 | elg | there is a very distinct difference. |
| 17:38.48 | whiteinge | no. hardware is the realm of limitation. software is the realm of infinite possiblity. |
| 17:38.56 | elg | either situation might be perfectly good reason to not buy an iphone, or to think it lacking |
| 17:39.01 | elg | but if you buy it anyway, it's not crippled. |
| 17:39.06 | elg | it is what it is |
| 17:39.42 | whiteinge | Well, I'm out gents. Back to work. |
| 17:40.14 | elg | it is what it is - a limited platform lacking the ability to tap the infinite possibliity of software (without subversion) |
| 18:26.28 | Tene | http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/10/11/better-off-without-him/ -- interesting |
| 18:33.44 | fozzmoo | Tene: I wish I had time to refute those "findings" |
| 18:34.30 | whiteinge | digs around in his pockets for extra time... no love :( |
| 18:57.59 | levi | whiteinge: Your 'hardware is the realm of limitation...' statement is spoken by a very PC-centric person. I write software for embedded systems and work with hardware designers. |
| 18:58.37 | levi | whiteinge: They're both written in remarkably similar languages, and the hardware is often more flexible than you'd think. |
| 19:01.59 | whiteinge | levi: that may be, but software will always be infinitely more flexible. |
| 19:02.36 | maquis | elg: why you want to make me kick people (yes, i'm way far behind on the discussion) |
| 19:02.40 | maquis | ? |
| 19:02.41 | levi | whiteinge: Infinitely? No. |
| 19:02.59 | elg | maquis: who better? |
| 19:03.04 | whiteinge | levi: almost infinitely is still a lot. |
| 19:07.18 | findlay | still arguing? |
| 19:07.25 | whiteinge | apparently |
| 19:07.29 | findlay | have you moved onto infinite sets now? |
| 19:07.36 | findlay | cardinality and stuff? |
| 19:12.45 | bugQ | I see your aleph_2 and raise you bet_4 |
| 19:13.53 | findlay | aleph_alephness! |
| 19:14.17 | bugQ | hardware and software are both cool, quit arguing |
| 19:14.44 | bugQ | why do you think I got into computer engineering? |
| 19:14.48 | findlay | nuh uh |
| 19:15.25 | findlay | hardware *IS* software and software is math and math is in my head, so you are all just creations of my own imagination |
| 19:15.55 | whiteinge | declares findlay the winner |
| 19:18.37 | findlay | yay |
| 19:18.44 | findlay | what do I get for it? |
| 19:19.36 | levi | http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121755336096303089.html?mod=googlenews_wsj |
| 19:19.36 | bugQ | three fresh internets. |
| 19:19.37 | brac | [Too Fit to Be President? - WSJ.com] |
| 19:20.29 | levi | Anything to avoid relevant details! |
| 19:21.32 | findlay | yay |
| 19:22.02 | findlay | eats one intarnet and puts the other two in the freezer |
| 19:22.29 | nick125 | findlay: Why not put one in the fridge for later? |
| 19:22.51 | nick125 | just make sure you eat it later tonight |
| 19:22.58 | nick125 | as the internet goes bad really quick |
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| 19:39.32 | elg | lol ""I won't vote for any beanpole guy," another Clinton supporter wrote ..." |
| 19:41.51 | elg | in soviet russia the internet eats you |
| 19:41.54 | findlay | nick125: sure thing |
| 19:43.53 | findlay | -chat relevant |
| 19:43.54 | brac | relevant had |
| 19:44.40 | elg | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-q7-lH8cbs |
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| 20:34.18 | *** join/#utah ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 20:34.18 | *** topic/#utah is http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | UTOSC discount code POUNDUTAH - 2008.utosc.com |
| 20:34.18 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 20:35.33 | nick125 | I'm front! Nice to meet you, back. |
| 20:43.03 | atoponce | tensai, nick125, Sargun: rzip -9 big.txt -> 663K |
| 20:47.47 | Sargun | Nice. |
| 20:47.51 | Sargun | How long did it take? |
| 21:06.05 | nick125 | still doesn't beat bzip's 7k |
| 21:10.34 | mrpull | the real question of the day is why would it take Vista (running on a quad xeon workstation) 3 minutes to unzip a 3 MB file? |
| 21:14.39 | nick125 | mrpull: Well, you got to watch a shiny progress bar... |
| 21:16.40 | Sargun | hahah |
| 21:16.51 | nick125 | That should make up for it. |
| 21:31.36 | Tene | http://www.theonion.com/content/video/study_most_children_strongly |
| 21:32.30 | levi | I think I'm going to be having squash with dinner tonight. |
| 21:32.59 | levi | I harvested a big yellow squash today, and 3 medium sized round green ones, whatever they are. |
| 21:33.20 | levi | I also got a pea pod and a small strawberry. :P |
| 21:39.32 | levi | I'll have a zillion tomatoes soon, though. |
| 21:42.12 | *** join/#utah squitoey (n=dallin@host-20.fbp.ore.fiber.net) |
| 22:16.06 | fozzmoo | http://blog.utos.org/2008/08/01/your-mom-called-said-its-time-to-register-already/ |
| 22:16.14 | fozzmoo | Squash?! |
| 22:16.19 | fozzmoo | Sounds like someone sat on dinner! |
| 22:16.32 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. George Carlin. Let him rest in bitter angriness. |
| 22:17.34 | JoshH | i doubt he's bitter and angry right now ;) |
| 22:34.09 | rsimpkins | ~pong synic |
| 22:34.10 | ibot | synic: PONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 22:39.12 | synic | rsimpkins: were you saying the proliant DL365 G5 were the ones you recommend? |
| 22:41.03 | rsimpkins | synic: I am a fan of the HP DL3XX line. I prefer Intel processors these days, but I know a lot of people disagree with that one. |
| 22:41.39 | rsimpkins | synic: A dual quad DL360G5 is a tough cookie to beat in the Enterprise computing space. :) |
| 22:42.19 | synic | so the DL360 is the intel one? |
| 22:42.25 | rsimpkins | yes. |
| 22:42.55 | nick125 | Intel CPUs are typically better performance, but they are also much more expensive. |
| 22:42.56 | rsimpkins | Get 6 2.5 sas drives in a RAID 10, and you've got a nice little work horse. |
| 22:43.27 | synic | yeah, we're finally getting rid of those older machines |
| 22:43.32 | synic | just got 5 of the DL365s |
| 22:43.38 | rsimpkins | nick125: Performance is not the only consideration when looking at business/enterprise class systems. |
| 22:43.48 | rsimpkins | Awesome. |
| 22:43.55 | fozzmoo | operating system. :) |
| 22:44.07 | nick125 | for instance, I can buy a dual core Opteron (1.8ghz, I think) for $80. A low-class Pentium E2150 (I think it was, it was a low end model) was going for $85. |
| 22:44.48 | fozzmoo | Yeah- if you're going low-end server... just get as much on-chip cache as you possibly can. |
| 22:45.05 | fozzmoo | I think that may be one of the biggest performance factors people ignore. |
| 22:45.11 | rsimpkins | I wish I could outlaw the low-end server forever. |
| 22:45.20 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: You're an elitist. :) |
| 22:45.35 | fozzmoo | I mean, you're spoiled! |
| 22:45.39 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I think it has to do with sheding actual TEARS due to low end servers. :) |
| 22:45.40 | nick125 | rsimpkins: If you want to buy me a dual quad core to replace my 2.6ghz Celery, go right ahead ;-) |
| 22:45.56 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanb@ubuntu/member/tristanbob) |
| 22:46.09 | fozzmoo | I'm wading in blade architecture now, so I know what you mean. |
| 22:46.48 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Which blades you working with? |
| 22:49.29 | fozzmoo | Dells |
| 22:49.43 | rsimpkins | m1000s? |
| 22:49.46 | fozzmoo | Old generation right now... |
| 22:49.51 | fozzmoo | but we'll be getting into the m1000s soon. |
| 22:50.04 | fozzmoo | not soon enough, I say. |
| 22:50.10 | rsimpkins | I love Dell, they are the classic example of bait and switch. :) |
| 22:50.27 | fozzmoo | ellaborate. |
| 22:50.41 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: One word - iKVM. |
| 22:50.53 | rsimpkins | What the FREAK is iKVM any way? :) |
| 22:51.12 | fozzmoo | Yeah. What is it? |
| 22:51.46 | rsimpkins | It is how you remote management one of these things unless you get a real KVM avocent module - which happen to cost obscene amounts of cash. |
| 22:52.09 | rsimpkins | I like the HPs due to the virtual connect stuff.... but that doesn't work for everyone. |
| 22:52.36 | fozzmoo | I thought the M1000 had embedded KVM. |
| 22:52.59 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I may be mistaken, but what they have is iKVM, and that does not equal KVM. |
| 22:53.25 | fozzmoo | It's not the same as connecting to an Avocent KVM over IP device? |
| 22:54.12 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Again, I may be totally wrong... I believe that it is not the same. It requires additional components to work the way a traditional KVM works, with some baggage. |
| 22:54.34 | fozzmoo | I hope it's not that bad! |
| 22:55.08 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: That was our take on it. We evaluated the m1000 in depth, and didn't buy. |
| 22:55.21 | fozzmoo | I probably won't have a choice. |
| 22:55.26 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: If you are serious about them - give me a call. I can share more about them in a private conversation. |
| 22:55.28 | fozzmoo | the boss is Dell allt he way. |
| 22:55.38 | rsimpkins | Well, in that case, it doesn't matter. |
| 22:55.42 | fozzmoo | If it were me, we'd be using HP or IBM hardware. |
| 22:55.54 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: You are. You just don't know it. *caugh*. :) |
| 22:56.17 | rsimpkins | What? Did I say that out loud, whoops. :) |
| 22:59.20 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Also, the Dell enclosure is active. The HP is not. That makes a big diff in reliability IMHO. |
| 23:02.38 | fozzmoo | Huh. |
| 23:03.39 | Tene | "active"? |
| 23:04.42 | rsimpkins | Tene: Yeah, there are parts that can fail/break because they have power running through them, and lots of chips with the magic black smoke stuck inside. |
| 23:05.06 | rsimpkins | I do like these things about the dell though: You can mix and match full and half size blades. The cooling is pretty cool. |
| 23:05.15 | *** part/#utah squitoey (n=dallin@host-20.fbp.ore.fiber.net) |
| 23:22.21 | levi | Covers of 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' you probably haven't heard before: http://lovewilltearusapart.muxtape.com/ |
| 23:22.26 | brac | [lovewilltearusapart.muxtape.com] |
| 23:26.34 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 23:27.04 | levi | Including a throat singer. |
| 23:29.25 | levi | And a chick from Iceland. |
