| 00:49.35 | findlay | everybody's gone |
| 00:57.35 | jsmith | Not quite *everybody* |
| 01:14.05 | findlay | sure |
| 01:14.16 | findlay | and then you'll just turn into jsmith-away |
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| 01:51.44 | Sargun_screen | everybody is watching hancock. |
| 01:53.28 | findlay | haha |
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| 02:27.59 | findlay | I wonder when bonez46 will make an apperance |
| 02:46.46 | herlo | NEVER!!! |
| 02:49.39 | Sargun_screen | ~lart herlo |
| 02:49.39 | ibot | cuts herlo into thin stripes |
| 02:49.46 | Sargun_screen | erlang is sexy |
| 02:50.09 | Sargun_screen | fsck, i screwed up my back |
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| 02:54.42 | herlo | lol |
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| 03:43.15 | findlay | http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=51502 |
| 03:43.18 | findlay | hahaha! |
| 03:43.37 | findlay | adobe releases PDF to the ISO |
| 03:44.01 | findlay | you can't claim that it's an evil standard anymore |
| 03:56.24 | Sargun | really? |
| 03:56.26 | Sargun | kills findlay |
| 03:57.27 | Sargun | HTML could be the uber standard. |
| 03:57.48 | Sargun | you could use it for documents |
| 04:06.47 | findlay | http://arxiv.org/abs/0807.0090 |
| 04:08.46 | findlay | if that's true that's way more awesome than PDF ever will be |
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| 04:18.08 | brac | [An IRC Tutorial] |
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| 04:41.08 | nick125 | nots that sontek is now famous |
| 04:41.10 | nick125 | *notes |
| 04:41.55 | nick125 | http://digg.com/linux_unix/Windows_Hater_in_response_to_Linux_Hater |
| 04:50.01 | sontek | damn it, my server better not crash |
| 04:50.12 | nick125 | The comments are...interesting |
| 04:50.16 | nick125 | too many windows/mac fanboys |
| 04:50.41 | nick125 | you know, the people who b*tch because they have to type three commands in a command prompt window. |
| 04:50.50 | herlo | so sontek is famous! |
| 04:51.33 | nick125 | You know, when you bash something, you should least know how to spell it. |
| 04:51.35 | nick125 | "Linix is garbage. It comes with 30 applications that all claim to do the same thing, so you don't know which one is the best and which to install. So when you do finally finish you end up with an 8 gig install of BS. Oh lets not forget > NO GAMES and how often you are forced to compile your own software because crap never works properly. Sure its cool to bash Windows and say how free Linix is. You know you didn't pay for windows anyways, so dr |
| 04:52.48 | nick125 | Games? Productive? HAAHAHAAHAHA |
| 04:53.10 | nick125 | These people are idiots! They think that if something doesn't run their video games, it's crap and not productive. |
| 04:54.00 | nick125 | And you know what, you *do* pay for Windows. |
| 04:54.19 | sontek | I actually don't mind windows though, I just wanted to see the response |
| 04:54.32 | herlo | sontek: something like that will always get the idiots :) |
| 04:54.37 | nick125 | I can't see how a linux install could be 8GB though. |
| 04:54.39 | herlo | especially on digg !! |
| 04:54.55 | nick125 | My laptop install is 12GB, and that includes a bunch of junk, etc |
| 04:54.57 | herlo | nick125: XP could easily be more than that... |
| 04:55.09 | herlo | doesn't know what Vista's install is |
| 04:55.11 | nick125 | The linux install on my eee is only 2GB |
| 04:55.14 | nick125 | herlo: 15GB or so |
| 04:55.16 | sontek | nick125: my install is 5.1gb, so I added a few gb's for those who install lots of shit |
| 04:55.27 | herlo | nick125: my eeep is 1.8GB |
| 04:55.32 | herlo | I've been optimising :) |
| 04:56.04 | nick125 | herlo: Well, I'm running gentoo so that includes all of the libraries (I've heard of people getting 1.1-1.2GB by using a binhost and not installing the libraries) |
| 04:56.12 | nick125 | Speaking of the eee, I still need to send mine off |
| 04:56.34 | herlo | nick125: mine's Fedora |
| 04:56.43 | herlo | is your eeep borkened? |
| 04:57.00 | nick125 | yeah. Keyboard isn't working properly (a few keys aren't working too well) |
| 04:57.56 | nick125 | It's kind of bad that it started giving me issues only being a few months old. |
| 04:59.23 | nick125 | I guess it wasn't intended to be the primary machine for someone like me :p |
| 05:00.35 | sontek | if any of you guys are looking for a cheap/decent host and don't mind openVZ instead of true virtualization, www.silverrack.com |
| 05:00.48 | sontek | hes a local guy and this server has survived 2 digg front pages so far |
| 05:01.40 | nick125 | but yeah, I'm not sure what kind of crap you'd have to install to get an 8GB default install though. |
| 05:02.30 | RazberrieTart | 8gb on a eeepc? my debian lenny install with kde is only 1.7gb and thats with a few games like openarena |
| 05:03.31 | nick125 | I've got 2-4GB of media on here locally, then I've got enlightenment DR17, ff/tb, oo.o, abiword, gnumeric, a python web dev "environment" (cherrypy, lighttpd, sqlobject, sqlalchemy, zope, zodb, pylons, postgresql, etc) and a lot of other stuff. |
| 05:03.57 | nick125 | RazberrieTart: nah, normal laptop |
| 05:04.28 | nick125 | I bet if I cleaned out old kernel sources and distfiles, I could cut 1-2GB from that |
| 05:04.53 | nick125 | helium mnt # du -sh /usr/portage/distfiles/ |
| 05:04.53 | nick125 | 2.3G/usr/portage/distfiles/ |
| 05:05.23 | nick125 | wow, I've got a lot of kernel sources installed. |
| 05:05.27 | nick125 | 2.1GB worth |
| 05:07.36 | nick125 | but yeah |
| 05:07.46 | nick125 | needs to clean out his homedir too. 2.3G |
| 05:11.57 | sontek | my home is using 38gb |
| 05:12.10 | sontek | mainly vm's |
| 05:12.20 | nick125 | sontek: dang.. |
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| 05:51.19 | Sargun | uhm |
| 06:38.07 | Supaplex | ~rlart |
| 06:38.07 | ibot | throws goozbach's poor little doggy off a cliff |
| 07:18.10 | findlay | -excuse |
| 07:18.10 | brac | The Borg tried to assimilate your system. Resistance is futile. |
| 07:19.14 | Supaplex | -excuse |
| 07:19.14 | brac | hardware stress fractures |
| 07:19.22 | Supaplex | hehe |
| 07:20.28 | findlay | just got his swampy cooler installed |
| 07:22.17 | findlay | ~random |
| 07:22.31 | findlay | ~_~ |
| 07:22.32 | ibot | STOP DOING THAT! |
| 07:22.36 | findlay | hehe |
| 07:25.12 | findlay | ~-~ |
| 07:26.51 | findlay | ~!@#$%^&*()_+ |
| 07:42.08 | Supaplex | ~_~ ~_~ |
| 07:55.45 | elg | farewell, cruel #utah |
| 07:56.54 | elg | -remind #utah about elg has entered the state at 12:00 |
| 07:56.55 | brac | lemme take care of that for you |
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| 14:43.01 | ^Migs^ | http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/01/where-the-hell-is-ma.html |
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| 14:55.29 | sontek | Good adsense is terrible, My whole blog is about Linux/Programming, and i'm looking at the generated ads, 1 for Pics of Girl Gamers, 2 for John Anderson the country singer, and only 1 for Linux tools |
| 14:55.42 | sontek | s/Good/google/ |
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| 15:10.29 | goozbach | not my doggy!!!! |
| 15:10.35 | goozbach | starts to cry |
| 15:18.51 | goozbach | ... oh wait! I don't have a doggy. |
| 15:18.54 | goozbach | feels better |
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| 15:45.35 | findlay | man |
| 15:45.39 | findlay | I love arxiv.org |
| 15:45.49 | ^Migs^ | http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12199 |
| 15:47.02 | findlay | http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/emperor-penguins.jpg |
| 15:51.50 | fozzmoo | Hey SUSE freaks, how do you change the timezone in SUSE? |
| 15:53.34 | sinuhe | /etc/localtime is a symlink to /usr/share/zoneinfo. |
| 15:53.43 | sinuhe | I imagine YaST would be the official way. |
| 15:54.59 | sinuhe | /etc/sysconfig/clock |
| 15:55.04 | sinuhe | Change the TIMEZONE variable. |
| 15:55.22 | sinuhe | Then restart the boot.clock init script. |
| 15:55.44 | sinuhe | Whatever I'm missing, that should get you started. |
| 16:01.40 | fozzmoo | thx |
| 16:02.29 | sinuhe | No problem. |
| 16:03.26 | sinuhe | For the record, the last time I installed SUSE was when it was SuSE, and yast still gave me the choice to be text only (and was more capable in text mode). |
| 16:03.43 | sinuhe | Just in case anyone were to blame me for being a SUSE freak. :-) |
| 16:03.48 | fozzmoo | heh. |
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| 16:05.13 | sontek | fozzmoo: yeah, I think suse handles it the same way fedora does |
| 16:05.17 | goozbach | sinuhe: SUSE lover! |
| 16:05.25 | sontek | fozzmoo: but yast also supports changing it |
| 16:05.37 | goozbach | ~yast -- |
| 16:05.41 | fozzmoo | sontek: I told the person who was asking to just use yast. He said it was pretty easy to find. |
| 16:05.43 | goozbach | ~yast-- |
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| 16:07.16 | sinuhe | goozbach: You've been waiting for something like that for awhile, haven't you? :-P |
| 16:07.20 | sinuhe | ~lart goozbach |
| 16:07.20 | ibot | strangles goozbach with a doohicky mouse cord |
| 16:07.42 | goozbach | ibot: you don't love me any more, do you? |
| 16:07.45 | sinuhe | Fedora doesn't symlink localtime anymore. |
| 16:07.51 | goozbach | kill my dog, strangle me. |
| 16:07.56 | goozbach | *sniff* |
| 16:08.24 | sinuhe | With SUSE, when in doubt, use YaST. |
| 16:09.21 | sontek | I'm actually a love yast, but I never used its GTK/QT interfaces, they might be terrible |
| 16:09.29 | sontek | the ncurses one is very good |
| 16:10.02 | sontek | hmm, I shouldn't read news while typing |
| 16:10.23 | sontek | I actually love yast, but I've never used its GTK/QT interfaces. |
| 16:10.27 | sontek | thats better |
| 16:10.56 | goozbach | sontek is a love yast! sontek is a love yast! sontek is a love yast! |
| 16:11.00 | goozbach | ~say sontek is a love yast! |
| 16:11.01 | ibot | sontek is a love yast! |
| 16:11.07 | goozbach | -say sontek is a love yast! |
| 16:11.07 | brac | okay |
| 16:11.08 | brac | insufficient "say" auth (have 10, need 70) |
| 16:11.12 | goozbach | bah |
| 16:14.12 | sontek | haha |
| 16:15.14 | mrpull | when di the daily herald redesign their site? |
| 16:15.26 | mrpull | it's lame it still doesn't appear to have RSS feeds |
| 16:24.16 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:24.21 | sjansen | ~congratulate sontek |
| 16:24.22 | ibot | ACTION congratulates sontek on being a new owner of a $500 brick. |
| 16:25.26 | sinuhe | ~dict brick |
| 16:26.32 | sjansen | ~slobber sinuhe |
| 16:27.12 | sjansen | ibot: slobber $victim is <action> drenches $victim in cotton candy flavored slobber |
| 16:27.12 | ibot | sjansen: okay |
| 16:27.15 | sjansen | ~slobber sinuhe |
| 16:27.15 | ibot | ACTION drenches sinuhe in cotton candy flavored slobber |
| 16:27.41 | sinuhe | I've been slimed. |
| 16:27.45 | sinuhe | ~jerk sjansen |
| 16:27.45 | ibot | ACTION suddenly yanks on the leash around sjansen's neck |
| 16:29.10 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=vontrapp@vader.cs.byu.edu) |
| 16:29.33 | vontrapp | does anyone know how to connect stdin/out of a process over tcp? |
| 16:29.49 | vontrapp | perhaps using nc |
| 16:30.40 | eggyknap | vontrapp: nc is really useful for that |
| 16:30.59 | eggyknap | I often have to do stuff like tar cf - directory/* | nc <host> <port> |
| 16:31.11 | eggyknap | ...and on the other end nc -l <port> | tar -zf - |
| 16:31.22 | vontrapp | i tried nc -l -p 2000 | my_prog |
| 16:31.38 | vontrapp | that connects stdin to myprog over tcp |
| 16:31.42 | vontrapp | but what about stdout? |
| 16:31.54 | fungus | nc only lets you connect one at a time |
| 16:31.58 | vontrapp | i want stdout to go _back_ over the same connection |
| 16:31.59 | fungus | not both |
| 16:32.47 | eggyknap | You'll have to have two connections, or something smarter than netcat to multiplex the connection |
| 16:33.02 | vontrapp | what's smarter than nc? |
| 16:33.44 | vontrapp | not to say that nc is particularly smart (just nifty) or that it's hard to be smarter, i just don't know of any programs |
| 16:34.33 | fungus | IIRC the limitation isn't nc's, the limitation is your shells ability to redirect |
| 16:34.53 | fungus | You can't pipe both stdin and stdout to the same process |
| 16:34.55 | vontrapp | that makes sense |
| 16:36.17 | fungus | BTW eggyknap tar pipes like yours are safer over ssh |
| 16:36.28 | fungus | and easier |
| 16:37.08 | fungus | tar -cf - ... | ssh hostname tar -xf - |
| 16:37.50 | herlo | fungus: you should consider gzip compression, its still faster if your pipe is 100Mbit or faster from the tests I've done |
| 16:38.03 | herlo | tar -czf - ... | ssh hostname tar -xf - |
| 16:38.10 | herlo | assuming you are using gnu tar |
| 16:38.28 | herlo | bzip compression, however, no way! |
| 16:38.36 | sinuhe | lzma... |
| 16:38.44 | fungus | hrm, haven't done much testing with that. |
| 16:38.51 | vontrapp | why no bzip? |
| 16:38.52 | fungus | I wonder how that would compare with ssh -C |
| 16:39.02 | herlo | vontrapp: it takes about 5-10 times as long to compress data |
| 16:39.15 | herlo | and you lose the benefit you gain by compressing and sending it over the wire |
| 16:39.19 | vontrapp | the network is likely slower than the compression |
| 16:39.27 | herlo | vontrapp: nope, test it yourself |
| 16:39.27 | vontrapp | at least in most cases i would use it |
| 16:40.18 | herlo | I've done tests with directories of images and of text files as well as a pretty even mix, bzip is *always* slower than without compression over 100Mbit or greater network connections |
| 16:40.50 | fungus | Of course it would depend on the speed of your processor too. |
| 16:41.07 | herlo | true |
| 16:41.18 | fungus | a long time ago I tries using gzip and it was slower than without compression. |
| 16:41.32 | fungus | However that may not be true anymore. |
| 16:42.45 | Supaplex | fungus: did ibot's desktop img remind you of anything? :) |
| 16:45.05 | fungus | Yeah, my desk right now |
| 16:45.40 | fungus | Well not quite, I have nice clean tower going right now |
| 16:45.48 | Supaplex | hehe. cool =) |
| 16:46.07 | vontrapp | well, if you're zipping at all, you're probably trying to trade processing speed over network speed |
| 16:46.12 | fungus | up to 123 cans right now |
| 16:46.21 | Supaplex | we want proof! |
| 16:46.30 | vontrapp | if you have a slow network (as in SLOW) then you might want to use bzip if it compresses better than gzip |
| 16:46.57 | herlo | that could be |
| 16:47.25 | tensai | only if your network is really slow. I just did some quick, informal tests. |
| 16:47.33 | eggyknap | fungus (meeting-delayed response): Yeah, safer over ssh, and much slower. The times I've had to do them, they've been within networks where encryption wasn't a concern. |
| 16:47.36 | tensai | 47MB of svn repos |
| 16:47.48 | tensai | no compression: 24s |
| 16:47.54 | tensai | gzip compression: 18s |
| 16:48.10 | tensai | bzip compression: 109s |
| 16:48.38 | vontrapp | so the no compression scenario would have to approach 109s before bzip would be worth anything |
| 16:48.52 | vontrapp | but try a remote server with a slow connection |
| 16:48.59 | Supaplex | it's also relative to the payload |
| 16:49.04 | fungus | http://kittypee.com/coketower.jpg |
| 16:49.11 | vontrapp | or if you have slow upload (like comcast) |
| 16:49.35 | vontrapp | eww, coke :p |
| 16:49.41 | tensai | the cpu was pegged while bzip was running, but not so much with gzip |
| 16:49.42 | Supaplex | fungus: coolies :) |
| 16:49.46 | vontrapp | make one with dr pepper and i'll be impressed |
| 16:50.28 | vontrapp | tensai, as soon as the network is a worse bottleneck than the cpu on bzip, then bzip becomes a good option |
| 16:50.40 | eggyknap | bzip vs. gzip vs. uncompressed for such things is definitely situation-specific. My cases have been two machines, side-by-side, with GB networking, so uncompressed has been quickest. |
| 16:50.50 | Supaplex | fungus: you missed yesterdays free 20oz coke deal on mycokerewards.com |
| 16:51.03 | vontrapp | 109/24 means you would need a network a little worse than 4 times slower |
| 16:51.24 | fungus | eggyknap: ssh compression is fast, and the benefit of typing one command in one place is totally worth it |
| 16:51.52 | tensai | ssh -C compression: 20-26s |
| 16:52.05 | vontrapp | is there an option to have ssh not encrypt? that would be bestest (for eggynaps case) |
| 16:52.32 | eggyknap | fungus: in my case it wasn't worth it -- I needed speed, and the encryption overhead of ssh was a big hit. |
| 16:52.54 | eggyknap | ...and it was very easy to coordinate netcats running in two places (which, IIRC, I did using ssh :) |
| 16:53.06 | mrpull | rcp could be used if encryption isn't needed |
| 16:53.08 | eggyknap | e.g. ssh hostname "nc -l -p <port> | tar -xf -" |
| 16:53.18 | mrpull | (and rcp even still is distributed) |
| 16:53.28 | mrpull | s/and/and if/ |
| 16:53.45 | tensai | my rcp is a symlink to scp :) |
| 16:53.52 | goozbach | dude, a four day work week? |
| 16:54.03 | goozbach | I need a government job in Utah, STAT! |
| 16:54.31 | vontrapp | why do you need a govt job to get the 4th off? |
| 16:54.45 | sontek | I know a couple companies outside of the govt in Utah that are also doing the 10 hour days |
| 16:54.55 | sontek | vontrapp: the government is switching to 4 10 hour days |
| 16:54.55 | vontrapp | oh, that's what you talkin bout |
| 16:54.59 | goozbach | I work 10hours a day anyway |
| 16:55.05 | vontrapp | i did that for the forest service one summer |
| 16:55.11 | goozbach | http://sustainablog.org/2008/07/02/utah-four-day-work-week-environmentally-friendly/ |
| 16:55.14 | vontrapp | it was nice |
| 16:55.53 | vontrapp | was something the whole crew decided they wanted to do, so we did it |
| 16:56.12 | herlo | goozbach: but don't you work 6 days a week? |
| 16:56.13 | vontrapp | was especially nice since the commute to the job was 45 min |
| 16:56.29 | herlo | prefers rsync to all this tar and ssh mess anyway... :) |
| 16:56.41 | fungus | agrees with herlo |
| 16:56.46 | vontrapp | that would be 4 days at 15 hours |
| 16:56.46 | Jayce^ | I did it for a while too, quite nice |
| 16:56.47 | vontrapp | ouch |
| 16:57.09 | goozbach | herlo: yeah |
| 16:57.17 | herlo | goozbach: that sux0rz |
| 16:57.20 | goozbach | so a 4-day work week would be AWESOME2Q |
| 16:57.35 | vontrapp | 10 hours a day, 6 days a week |
| 16:57.49 | vontrapp | if you wanted a four day work week, you'd have to work 15 hours a day |
| 16:58.03 | goozbach | vontrapp: that trumps 10-15 hours a day, 6 day work week |
| 16:58.05 | herlo | ew |
| 16:58.35 | goozbach | I'm working on average 13 hours/day for the last five weeks |
| 16:58.37 | vontrapp | wow, that's even more hours you would have to squeeze into the four days |
| 16:58.42 | herlo | either way. I think traveling is actually a better alternative to your 60hrs a week, especially when I get a week of vacation after two weeks on the road |
| 16:58.43 | goozbach | with only one day break |
| 16:58.55 | goozbach | vontrapp: you don't understand |
| 16:59.06 | vontrapp | so what you really need is a new job |
| 16:59.13 | goozbach | that's it! |
| 16:59.19 | vontrapp | :) |
| 16:59.21 | goozbach | ~winner vontrapp |
| 16:59.22 | ibot | It's clear that vontrapp has no chance of winning anything, particularly against goozbach or goozbach 's team |
| 16:59.22 | herlo | does 60+hrs otr, but not at home! |
| 16:59.34 | goozbach | yay! |
| 16:59.36 | goozbach | I win! |
| 16:59.37 | herlo | lol |
| 16:59.43 | goozbach | ibot: I love you again. |
| 16:59.44 | ibot | You love you again.? |
| 16:59.44 | herlo | ~loser goozbach |
| 16:59.55 | herlo | awww! |
| 16:59.58 | maquis | lol |
| 17:00.04 | vontrapp | haha, goozbach is a narcisist |
| 17:00.04 | goozbach | opps. I meant that to be a /msg :* |
| 17:00.08 | maquis | what's with all the people bragging about working hours? |
| 17:00.09 | tensai | vontrapp: well I've definitely got a slow link here. I'll have a report for you maybe by next week. |
| 17:00.27 | goozbach | I'm not braging, so much as compliaining |
| 17:00.32 | maquis | who here works christmas eve day? |
| 17:00.40 | maquis | and the day after thanksgiving? |
| 17:00.45 | herlo | maquis: nobody is silly enough to do that :) |
| 17:00.55 | maquis | herlo: i wish |
| 17:00.56 | vontrapp | i take two weeks at christmas |
| 17:01.00 | herlo | maquis: lol |
| 17:01.09 | maquis | vontrapp: nice |
| 17:01.11 | maquis | i'm jealous |
| 17:01.37 | tensai | maquis: you picked the wrong business if you want those perks |
| 17:01.44 | maquis | lol |
| 17:02.02 | maquis | usually we can take january mostly off |
| 17:02.03 | maquis | :) |
| 17:02.24 | goozbach | I would love that. |
| 17:02.29 | goozbach | spend a month snowboarding |
| 17:02.33 | goozbach | oh yeah!!! |
| 17:03.26 | *** part/#utah bonez45 (n=scott@mail.FYRENICE.COM) |
| 17:03.45 | tensai | vontrapp: I had to kill it. this is interesting though. I'll run a more complete test later on. |
| 17:03.47 | herlo | goozbach: should we move UTOSC to February so you can go snowboarding? |
| 17:05.10 | goozbach | herlo: that'd be cool |
| 17:05.20 | goozbach | but I still have to take gobs of vacation |
| 17:05.29 | tensai | why not two utoscs? |
| 17:05.30 | vontrapp | goozbach: you deserve it |
| 17:05.44 | vontrapp | utsbc |
| 17:05.51 | vontrapp | utah snowbarding conference |
| 17:06.18 | goozbach | there was an "unconference" this last season at alta or snowbird, |
| 17:07.30 | sontek | I say we move the UTOSC to Atlanta! |
| 17:07.40 | sontek | Then goozbach doesn't have to take vacation |
| 17:08.20 | goozbach | you would do that for me? |
| 17:08.40 | goozbach | aww shucks *kicks at the dirt embarrased* |
| 17:09.19 | sontek | We'd do anything for our favorite Guru! |
| 17:09.49 | goozbach | wants a fire piston |
| 17:19.47 | herlo | tensai: you organize the second one, k |
| 17:20.07 | tensai | herlo: sure. I'll get right on that. |
| 17:20.20 | herlo | tensai: great, let me know when and where and I will be there |
| 17:20.26 | herlo | reminds everyone to register... |
| 17:20.41 | herlo | for UTOSC 2008, not UTSBC :) |
| 17:20.50 | sjansen | sontek: I'm not your favorite Guru? |
| 17:20.53 | herlo | tensai will remind you of that... |
| 17:21.10 | sjansen | kick at dirt disappointed |
| 17:21.40 | goozbach | sjansen: you're still *MY* favorite Guru |
| 17:21.42 | herlo | Okay, I'm going to yell!! |
| 17:22.11 | herlo | Delta raised their unaccompanied minor fee to $100 in march, now Jet Blue just raised theirs to $75 each way. WTF! |
| 17:22.28 | goozbach | wow |
| 17:22.34 | goozbach | airlines are dying |
| 17:22.37 | herlo | they say its to combat fuel prices, but how does walking a kid down the jetway have *anything* to do with fuel prices ?? |
| 17:22.38 | goozbach | news at 11 |
| 17:22.49 | tensai | childhood obesity |
| 17:22.52 | herlo | that's literally *all* they do |
| 17:22.56 | herlo | tensai: lol |
| 17:23.15 | herlo | my son doesn't way over 100lbs and if he did, I'd be taking him to a diet clinic |
| 17:23.19 | herlo | he's 7 |
| 17:23.25 | herlo | s/7/8/g |
| 17:23.36 | herlo | they're right next to each other on the keyboard :/ |
| 17:23.40 | vontrapp | just send your kid next-day-air |
| 17:23.47 | herlo | vontrapp: that might work! |
| 17:24.12 | herlo | if only he had enough food in the box, I'd probably have to provide a rebreather, but hey... |
| 17:24.15 | goozbach | just buy yourself one of those sealable containers which fit in the belly of a 747 |
| 17:24.48 | goozbach | build him a little entertainment center, add a fridge and a composting toilet. |
| 17:24.49 | herlo | goozbach: sealable? Is that really a good idea? |
| 17:25.02 | vontrapp | give him some granola bars and a jug of water, and one of these nameserver 128.187.80.20 |
| 17:25.06 | vontrapp | nameserver 128.187.80.21 |
| 17:25.12 | vontrapp | gar |
| 17:25.13 | herlo | lol |
| 17:25.15 | herlo | ROFL |
| 17:25.16 | vontrapp | http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZKUTAAAAEBAJ |
| 17:25.19 | goozbach | herlo: security sealable, not air-tight |
| 17:25.25 | herlo | goozbach: ooh, phew! |
| 17:26.01 | tensai | vontrapp: I was thinking the same thing |
| 17:26.36 | herlo | ew! but cool, kind of like a train wreck, you can't look away! |
| 17:27.17 | tensai | herlo: draw a moustache on your son and give him a normal ticket |
| 17:28.13 | herlo | tensai: lol, he'd need to tell the TSA guy that he *lost* his ID too |
| 17:28.48 | vontrapp | "i would love to give you my id if i could find it!" |
| 17:29.22 | sontek | If the lines are long and i'm in a hurry I pretend I lost my id |
| 17:29.26 | herlo | http://www.emergentchaos.com/archives/2007/02/flying_without_an_id.html |
| 17:29.27 | brac | [Emergent Chaos: Flying Without an ID] |
| 17:29.29 | tensai | it's perfectly legal to not have ID, despite what the TSA would prefer |
| 17:29.31 | sontek | They put you in the express lane |
| 17:30.23 | vontrapp | but they now think they should stop you for refusing to show id (as opposed to not having it) |
| 17:30.31 | sontek | I learned that when I lost my wallet in denver, got through and was sleeping by time my friends caught up going through the normal lines |
| 17:30.49 | herlo | still, $75 or $100 just to walk a kid up the ramp seems silly |
| 17:31.40 | tensai | http://consumerist.com/tag/tsa-id-policy/?i=5018844&t=privacy-whats-its-like-to-fly-with-no-id-under-the-tsas-new-regulations |
| 17:31.55 | herlo | yeah, that's the one I was looking for |
| 17:32.57 | vontrapp | asked about party affiliation? what's wrong with this country?!? |
| 17:42.23 | sontek | herlo: its cheaper than having to fly with him |
| 17:42.48 | herlo | sontek: actually, its not |
| 17:43.10 | herlo | my ticket last time would have been 179, his round trip charges were 200 |
| 17:43.29 | sontek | herlo: then you should've flown :) |
| 17:43.39 | sontek | herlo: my boss has to fly to wisconsin to get his sun |
| 17:43.45 | herlo | on Jet Blue, its usually less, but their fees are less |
| 17:43.50 | sontek | herlo: he buys 3 tickets |
| 17:43.57 | herlo | 89 for him to fly $75 to escort him |
| 17:44.28 | herlo | sontek: its a matter of me being available and if I have to fly to california, then the cost of hotel comes into the mix :( |
| 17:44.40 | sontek | herlo: but if you flew, you'd have to fly out there, fly back with him, fly out again to take him back, and then fly back home |
| 17:44.45 | herlo | but for flying only, its cheaper |
| 17:44.46 | sontek | thats what Trent does with his son |
| 17:44.52 | sontek | costs him over $1,000 everytime he sees him |
| 17:45.02 | herlo | yeah, I might consider something like that in the near future |
| 17:45.26 | tensai | could you hire a hobo to fly with him? |
| 17:46.45 | herlo | tensai: hmm, interesting concept, maybe there's a business model here |
| 17:46.56 | herlo | trusted flying |
| 17:47.11 | sontek | you should move to LA |
| 17:47.19 | sontek | Then you get to be in LA |
| 17:47.26 | sontek | and a side benefit that you are close to your son |
| 17:47.30 | sontek | but the important part is being in LA |
| 17:47.31 | herlo | have an escort that is already going that way, they just have to register and submit to the sex offender database to make sure they are pretty safe |
| 17:47.37 | herlo | sontek: LA sux |
| 17:48.17 | sontek | herlo: son hater! |
| 17:48.57 | herlo | too many people, traffic is horrible, there aren't 4 seasons, I could go on and on |
| 17:48.57 | herlo | sontek: lol, good one |
| 17:48.57 | sontek | They skip all the bad seasons |
| 17:48.57 | peno | la sux |
| 17:48.57 | herlo | sontek: how was the openSUSE meeting, er um, I mean dinner with decriptor |
| 17:49.03 | herlo | peno: right on! |
| 17:49.35 | sontek | herlo: Hows being #3 popular distro going for ya? |
| 17:50.55 | sontek | herlo: we'll let Fedora bum off of our release party next year if Ubuntu doesn't let you |
| 17:51.01 | sontek | herlo: wouldn't want the 2 of you guys to be lonely |
| 17:51.38 | herlo | sontek: lol |
| 17:52.02 | herlo | sontek: I think #2 is the first loser |
| 17:53.05 | sontek | herlo: yah, poor ubuntu |
| 17:53.10 | herlo | so openSUSE loses before Fedora |
| 17:54.23 | herlo | moves on... |
| 17:54.25 | sontek | herlo: I thought we were all on the same team! |
| 17:54.34 | herlo | exactly why I am moving on |
| 17:54.47 | sontek | herlo: but not exactly why you started in on it? |
| 17:55.06 | sontek | we went from LA to openSUSE insults |
| 17:55.10 | herlo | lol |
| 17:55.20 | sontek | herlo: don't preach if you can't practice buddy |
| 17:55.21 | herlo | actually, it went to the openSUSE meeting |
| 17:55.42 | herlo | I was just goading you, it seems to work most of the time :) |
| 17:56.07 | sontek | herlo: if by works, you prove how much of a hipocrit you truly are :) |
| 17:56.19 | sontek | herlo: you already know I think you are an idiot, so anything you do past that just reassures it |
| 17:56.26 | herlo | k |
| 18:00.54 | brac | reminder (22:04:53): elg has entered the state |
| 18:02.34 | tensai | run for the hills! |
| 18:02.57 | sontek | ~party |
| 18:02.58 | ibot | Woohoo! Bot on the loose! |
| 18:12.16 | *** join/#utah synic (n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 18:19.45 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 18:20.41 | *** join/#utah keldwud (n=keldwud@c-76-23-3-18.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:21.18 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@75.148.99.197) |
| 18:21.33 | vontrapp | ok, /me can't figure out how to imap with yahoo |
| 18:21.40 | vontrapp | it says "NO LOGIN" |
| 18:22.12 | vontrapp | the only auth options are these crazy XYMCOOKIE things |
| 18:24.48 | herlo | ppl still use yahoo? |
| 18:25.10 | bonez44 | yahoo? I haven't been on that site in a long while.. |
| 18:25.16 | vontrapp | it's some research thing |
| 18:26.18 | herlo | lol |
| 18:27.15 | vontrapp | what the heck is XYMCOOKIE? |
| 18:46.38 | *** join/#utah mrpull1 (n=Jake@newshell.xmission.com) |
| 18:49.26 | sjansen | Being in LA is a benefit? Huh? |
| 18:49.35 | sjansen | Being in LA is a punishment. |
| 18:50.58 | vontrapp | i like being in LA Suburbs |
| 18:51.04 | vontrapp | particularly Palos Verdes |
| 18:51.18 | vontrapp | but ya, LA is a nightmare |
| 18:54.33 | Jayce^ | nothing is worth living in LA |
| 18:57.05 | sontek | I like to snorkel and scuba dive |
| 18:57.13 | sontek | All we've got in Utah is homestead |
| 18:57.17 | sontek | that gets boring real quick :P |
| 18:57.29 | Jayce^ | there are a few others |
| 18:57.38 | Jayce^ | can go see the sharks out in the west desert :) |
| 19:00.56 | sontek | Yeah, there are a few good places here, but they are more of one time dives |
| 19:02.19 | sontek | But if you like that type of stuff, LA isn't bad, if you like driving more than 2 mph, LA isn't for you :P |
| 19:02.56 | Supaplex | bike > LA |
| 19:03.34 | sontek | I didn't mind the traffic |
| 19:08.05 | Jayce^ | can't stand it down there |
| 19:08.25 | Jayce^ | last time I was there, had a nice spyder, top down, and stuck in traffic no matter when I went out |
| 19:36.28 | *** part/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 20:38.33 | *** join/#utah brast1 (n=brasto@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 20:45.49 | sontek | so has anyone else noticed that holidays always start a day early? |
| 20:46.08 | sontek | 3 day weekend coming up and everyone felt the need to ditch out by noon today :P |
| 20:50.28 | findlay | not me |
| 20:50.37 | findlay | goes to rescue the barcode printer |
| 20:54.44 | Jayce^ | was a nice thing about my last company. On the preceeding day we'd always get an email from the CEO, announcing a half day |
| 20:54.55 | Jayce^ | always sent from his mobile device, as he was on his way out |
| 20:56.33 | sontek | haha, nice =) |
| 20:56.37 | sontek | not so much at Bluehost? |
| 20:56.51 | sontek | our boss doesn't announce days, he just doesn't show up sometimes :P |
| 21:00.08 | sontek | I should leave because my mind has shut off :P |
| 21:11.07 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (i=d80790dd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-29276e55e1a2a5cc) |
| 21:11.26 | lakshmi | hi |
| 21:11.32 | lakshmi | is anyone in here? |
| 21:13.36 | sontek | Nope, everyone is headed to moab for family fun |
| 21:13.52 | lakshmi | i thought you guys collectively died |
| 21:14.06 | lakshmi | no one seems to be here in any of hte channels |
| 21:14.09 | lakshmi | guess its me |
| 21:14.11 | sontek | basically, its a 3 day weekend! |
| 21:14.12 | findlay | does that mean I'm dead? |
| 21:15.20 | lakshmi | uhm we could always hope now eh? :P |
| 21:40.20 | *** join/#utah mrpull (n=Jake@newshell.xmission.com) |
| 21:47.11 | findlay | ~36*4 |
| 21:47.12 | ibot | 144 |
| 21:49.12 | findlay | ~144*108 |
| 21:49.13 | ibot | 15552 |
| 21:53.35 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (n=carrus85@216.83.145.38) |
| 22:04.51 | goozbach | is excited he's not going to be up all night |
| 22:05.44 | goozbach | I did have a *BIG* maintanence event planned tonight, but we may have found the issue which was causing problems. |
| 22:06.44 | findlay | a little issue? |
| 22:07.03 | goozbach | in completely unrelated news... If you require host-based SQL access to your mysql database server, make sure that your server can correctly look up both forward and reverse addresses. |
| 22:07.07 | goozbach | :) |
| 22:13.35 | Jayce^ | what an amazing thing |
| 22:14.12 | findlay | interesting |
| 22:17.53 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 22:29.41 | bonez44 | the issue of having a centralized address book keeps coming up for me.. I'd like one that I keep everyone...personal, work, other contacts.. email, address, phone, fax, etc. etc... for my office... plus have it update and synchronize with my home network.. .. |
| 22:30.19 | bonez44 | any ideas? |
| 22:30.27 | goozbach | bonez44: freeipa |
| 22:30.49 | goozbach | sync your treo to it on a regular basis |
| 22:30.57 | findlay | bonez44: good question |
| 22:30.57 | goozbach | s/freeipa/openldap/ |
| 22:31.31 | bonez44 | wife has a treo, I have a Palm m505... |
| 22:31.39 | bonez44 | so, openldap? |
| 22:32.27 | goozbach | make yourself an address book schema (I'm sure there are some out there) |
| 22:35.29 | bonez44 | I'd like to be able to email to anyone.. from windows,or linux.. at home or work.. by hitting 'mutt name' and having openldap find the email address...as well to allow me to store demographics on friends.. and have them all update to one central repository |
| 22:38.02 | goozbach | ~dict STBY |
| 22:38.12 | goozbach | ~wtf STBY |
| 22:38.17 | Tene | ~dict STAB |
| 22:39.33 | findlay | ~stab Tene |
| 22:39.33 | ibot | ACTION runs at Tene with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
| 22:39.35 | Jayce^ | sontek, ?? |
| 22:46.54 | *** join/#utah PoeticIntensity (n=jason@67.137.24.218) |
| 22:47.25 | PoeticIntensity | Fellow Utah Linux users... |
| 22:47.42 | findlay | hello |
| 22:47.47 | findlay | ~welcome PoeticIntensity |
| 22:47.47 | ibot | Howdy, PoeticIntensity! |
| 22:47.51 | PoeticIntensity | About a year ago, I could listen to KNRS (knrs.com) streaming content via mplayerplug-in... |
| 22:48.14 | PoeticIntensity | Sometime ago (no idea of a date), they changed the way they stream their content, and I was wondering if any other Linux users can get it to stream.... |
| 22:48.24 | PoeticIntensity | for me, it just sits in an eternal loop saying "content loading"... |
| 22:48.38 | PoeticIntensity | http://www.570knrs.com/pages/player.html |
| 22:48.41 | brac | [570 KNRS | Family Values Talk Radio] |
| 22:49.12 | PoeticIntensity | (and thank you for your salutation, findlay.. :) ) |
| 22:49.34 | PoeticIntensity | the old player used to use mplayer. This one seemingly is trying to use some AJAX application, and possibly stream via flash... |
| 22:49.37 | PoeticIntensity | not sure, though. |
| 22:50.01 | PoeticIntensity | anyone care enough to give it a test-run for my sanity's sake? |
| 22:58.01 | findlay | doesn't work for me |
| 23:02.41 | *** part/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 23:18.56 | Sargun | who the heck is PoeticIntensity |
| 23:19.02 | Sargun | PoeticIntensity, hello |
| 23:19.05 | Sargun | nice to meet you |
| 23:19.06 | PoeticIntensity | howdy |
| 23:19.07 | Sargun | who are you? |
| 23:19.17 | PoeticIntensity | uhh... my name is Jason? |
| 23:19.20 | PoeticIntensity | who are you? |
| 23:19.38 | Sargun | My nick says who I am. |
| 23:19.41 | PoeticIntensity | I'm just a Linux-user living and working in Springville... |
| 23:19.51 | PoeticIntensity | well, hello, Sargun. |
| 23:19.52 | dataw0lf | Sargun: calm down. |
| 23:20.01 | PoeticIntensity | yo, dataw0lf... How's life? |
| 23:20.03 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity mostly hangs out in #uphpu |
| 23:20.16 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: Busy. |
| 23:20.21 | dataw0lf | busy, busy, busy. |
| 23:20.28 | PoeticIntensity | that can be good... |
| 23:20.40 | PoeticIntensity | and thanks for the warm welcome, Sargun. Nice to meet you. |
| 23:20.57 | dataw0lf | oh yea, salaried + overtime ftw. |
| 23:21.03 | PoeticIntensity | oh wow... really? |
| 23:21.05 | PoeticIntensity | hehe... |
| 23:21.06 | dataw0lf | Yea. |
| 23:21.08 | PoeticIntensity | rakin' it in... |
| 23:21.22 | dataw0lf | so close to my yacht I can almost smell it |
| 23:21.29 | PoeticIntensity | blinks... |
| 23:21.33 | PoeticIntensity | daaaaang, bro! |
| 23:21.43 | dataw0lf | been saving up for a while, man. |
| 23:21.43 | Sargun | Haha |
| 23:21.50 | Sargun | Its warm. |
| 23:22.03 | Sargun | PoeticIntensity, So, how is the weather? |
| 23:22.12 | PoeticIntensity | it's hot. |
| 23:22.14 | PoeticIntensity | too hot. |
| 23:22.21 | dataw0lf | what's the temp in SLC? |
| 23:22.24 | PoeticIntensity | I'd rather live in Alaska. |
| 23:22.32 | PoeticIntensity | right now it's 98 degrees. |
| 23:22.43 | Sargun | Wow, I think 83 degrees is hot. |
| 23:22.45 | PoeticIntensity | or so says my XFCE plugin. :) |
| 23:22.58 | dataw0lf | about 90 here, with a fairly dense cloud of smoke hanging over the valley |
| 23:23.01 | dataw0lf | due to the norcal fires. |
| 23:23.20 | PoeticIntensity | wow... so it's hot AND hard to breathe... |
| 23:23.21 | PoeticIntensity | that's great.. |
| 23:23.27 | dataw0lf | yea, it's pretty bad |
| 23:23.40 | dataw0lf | I don't have AC in my house, so I USUALLY keep the windows open and have fans running |
| 23:23.46 | dataw0lf | shakes his head |
| 23:23.49 | PoeticIntensity | oh. my... |
| 23:23.50 | Sargun | Yeah, the fires have been terrible up here. |
| 23:23.55 | PoeticIntensity | where you at, Sargun ? |
| 23:23.56 | Sargun | dataw0lf, Where are you in SV? |
| 23:24.08 | Sargun | work in SJC, and live in PLD |
| 23:24.12 | Sargun | (California) |
| 23:24.12 | dataw0lf | but I spend most of my time in my house in the basement anyway, so it's not terrible, but I've been crashing on the couch down there too often |
| 23:24.15 | PoeticIntensity | ah... |
| 23:24.32 | Sargun | The fires have been terrible as of lately. |
| 23:24.38 | PoeticIntensity | man alive... if I didn't have AC.... life would be - bad. |
| 23:24.48 | Sargun | They'll get worse because of nutso teenagers lighting stuff on fire. |
| 23:25.04 | PoeticIntensity | yeah.. The fires in Paradise, CA had my wife scared... She's got a lot of friends down there. |
| 23:25.18 | Sargun | Ah. |
| 23:25.19 | Sargun | Yeah. |
| 23:25.24 | PoeticIntensity | shakes his head... |
| 23:25.30 | Sargun | Paradise is a nice place, but not quite paradise. |
| 23:25.44 | PoeticIntensity | and then there's stupid websites that don't take cross-browser / cross-OS into account... |
| 23:25.53 | PoeticIntensity | oh... wait.... that's like 99% of all of them out there. |
| 23:25.59 | PoeticIntensity | rants. |
| 23:26.14 | Sargun | whoa, I think I bricked my phone |
| 23:26.16 | dataw0lf | Sargun: no, I'm in Reno. |
| 23:26.17 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 23:26.22 | dataw0lf | Reno/Tahoe |
| 23:26.28 | PoeticIntensity | too bad ya didn't come up to SLC, dataw0lf... |
| 23:26.38 | PoeticIntensity | I'm still waiting for that presentation on penetration testing... |
| 23:26.49 | PoeticIntensity | I'd love to learn more about security... |
| 23:26.54 | dataw0lf | we can arrange that. |
| 23:27.03 | PoeticIntensity | bring it on, bro! |
| 23:27.18 | dataw0lf | everytime I come to SLC I get super smashed, I should probably curb that. |
| 23:27.18 | PoeticIntensity | gets his pen and paper... |
| 23:27.24 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 23:27.34 | PoeticIntensity | takes notes.... |
| 23:27.45 | PoeticIntensity | "don't let dataw0lf get smashed when he comes..." |
| 23:27.53 | dataw0lf | yea, harder than it sounds... |
| 23:27.55 | PoeticIntensity | then thinks a second... |
| 23:27.58 | PoeticIntensity | and erases... |
| 23:28.00 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 23:28.21 | dataw0lf | I'll see when I'm coming next, it's just hard to make it out on Thursday due to work. |
| 23:28.36 | PoeticIntensity | yup... |
| 23:28.40 | PoeticIntensity | how's the new gig going? |
| 23:28.45 | PoeticIntensity | (semi-new, anyway) |
| 23:28.53 | dataw0lf | shrugs |
| 23:29.02 | PoeticIntensity | that good, eh'? |
| 23:29.03 | dataw0lf | I've learned to love Ruby and hate Rails |
| 23:29.17 | dataw0lf | Man Rails. And REXML. |
| 23:29.19 | dataw0lf | shudders |
| 23:29.31 | dataw0lf | REXML leaks memory like a sieve, it's ridiculous. |
| 23:29.44 | PoeticIntensity | wow... |
| 23:29.45 | sinuhe | Most self respecting ruby hackers should have distaste for Rails. |
| 23:29.52 | Sargun | Ruby sucks. |
| 23:30.01 | PoeticIntensity | I can't remember the last time I've seen the word ridiculous spelled correctly... |
| 23:30.02 | Sargun | Threading model is ruby is broken. |
| 23:30.26 | dataw0lf | my other senior developer is a Ruby fan, I'm the Python guy, but we've been switching roles a lot to introduce ourselves to new things. |
| 23:30.37 | dataw0lf | it's good when you have a decent Ruby developer to bounce ideas off of. |
| 23:31.08 | dataw0lf | RSpec though <3 |
| 23:31.09 | Sargun | I live Python, but threading in python is broken also. |
| 23:31.12 | sinuhe | ducks out of the conversation, realizing a flame war brews. |
| 23:31.13 | PoeticIntensity | so how does it stack up against Python? |
| 23:31.22 | dataw0lf | shrugs |
| 23:31.28 | dataw0lf | I prefer Python |
| 23:31.35 | dataw0lf | Ruby is definitely more Lispish, though. |
| 23:31.39 | Sargun | prefers Python too |
| 23:31.42 | dataw0lf | with Smalltalk overtones. |
| 23:31.55 | dataw0lf | It's not a bad language, Ruby is fine. |
| 23:31.58 | dataw0lf | I just prefer Python. |
| 23:32.07 | PoeticIntensity | whatever floats the boat, says I. |
| 23:32.19 | PoeticIntensity | PHP pays the bills for me.... |
| 23:32.20 | dataw0lf | Well... I dunno about that ;-) |
| 23:32.32 | PoeticIntensity | although I have promised myself to do more research / projects in python... |
| 23:32.35 | dataw0lf | the best thing you can say about PHP is that... well... hum |
| 23:32.37 | dataw0lf | sometimes it works? |
| 23:32.38 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 23:32.39 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 23:32.42 | dataw0lf | Just kidding. |
| 23:32.44 | dataw0lf | (not really) |
| 23:32.48 | PoeticIntensity | nods... |
| 23:32.50 | PoeticIntensity | I dunno... |
| 23:33.01 | PoeticIntensity | It just does what I need it to... |
| 23:33.05 | PoeticIntensity | maybe my projects aren't that complex... |
| 23:33.08 | PoeticIntensity | maybe I'm a n00b... |
| 23:33.20 | PoeticIntensity | shrugs.. |
| 23:33.33 | dataw0lf | nothing wrong with that, I just think there's generally a higher level of "programming consciousness" in modern languages like Ruby and Python. |
| 23:33.50 | PoeticIntensity | ya know.... I know that I don't know enough to even opine on that. |
| 23:34.05 | PoeticIntensity | I'm sure if I learned something a little lower-level than PHP, I'd agree with ya. |
| 23:34.13 | PoeticIntensity | Python is a great starting point for me, I believe. |
| 23:34.26 | dataw0lf | yea, you should keep on tackling it. |
| 23:34.30 | dataw0lf | hit me up for questions. |
| 23:34.35 | dataw0lf | join the Python Tutors list |
| 23:34.37 | dataw0lf | etc etc |
| 23:34.37 | PoeticIntensity | I appreciate that, dataw0lf. |
| 23:34.40 | PoeticIntensity | yeah... |
| 23:34.45 | PoeticIntensity | I guess the main question is.... |
| 23:35.00 | PoeticIntensity | since my whole career has revolved around web development..... |
| 23:35.08 | PoeticIntensity | is Python as suited for web as PHP is? |
| 23:35.26 | PoeticIntensity | if I knew Python as well as I know PHP, would it be the weapon of choice? |
| 23:35.26 | Sargun | Better. |
| 23:35.42 | Sargun | Python is easier, more secure, saner. |
| 23:35.54 | Sargun | It feels more like a "real programming language" |
| 23:35.56 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: I certainly think so. |
| 23:36.00 | PoeticIntensity | the one app I've written in Python wasn't too terribly difficult, and has worked flawlessly... |
| 23:36.11 | PoeticIntensity | I should post the code so you guys can critique it.... |
| 23:36.12 | dataw0lf | I think Google's App Engine has moved Django up further as a favored tool. |
| 23:36.13 | PoeticIntensity | I think I will. |
| 23:36.28 | dataw0lf | Maybe you should play around with App Engine to get a handle on it |
| 23:36.29 | dataw0lf | shrugs |
| 23:36.33 | PoeticIntensity | Help me understand what Django is.... |
| 23:36.42 | PoeticIntensity | is it a framework built on Python? |
| 23:36.54 | dataw0lf | it's a tightly coupled web framework written in Python. |
| 23:36.56 | Sargun | Yes |
| 23:37.03 | PoeticIntensity | I see. |
| 23:37.10 | dataw0lf | So you're writing Python when you implement something in Django. |
| 23:37.14 | Sargun | Its a web framework that works with Python |
| 23:37.23 | PoeticIntensity | I've definitely heard respected developers moving toward it recently... |
| 23:37.58 | dataw0lf | give it a shot. |
| 23:38.12 | dataw0lf | I could provide you with a sandbox on one of my personal servers, if you want one |
| 23:38.18 | PoeticIntensity | could a link to sites using django be provided? |
| 23:38.19 | Sargun | Write Python CGI first |
| 23:38.20 | Sargun | its more fun |
| 23:38.25 | PoeticIntensity | well... |
| 23:38.33 | PoeticIntensity | that's how I learned programming in the first place.. |
| 23:38.42 | PoeticIntensity | was writing stuff by hand when others were using Dreamweaver... |
| 23:39.08 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: http://www.djangosites.org/ |
| 23:39.11 | PoeticIntensity | I've had very limited formal CS training, and a load of hands-on experience... |
| 23:39.23 | PoeticIntensity | talking to a lot of people smarter than I in the process. |
| 23:39.29 | PoeticIntensity | (thanks dataw0lf) |
| 23:39.35 | Sargun | PoeticIntensity, you don't need CS training for python |
| 23:39.40 | Sargun | its a natural language. |
| 23:40.12 | PoeticIntensity | "natural"... |
| 23:40.16 | PoeticIntensity | not sure I understand that one. |
| 23:41.07 | dataw0lf | it's intuitive. |
| 23:41.10 | sinuhe | python is a worthy choice; I was attracted to tcl for awhile, but seem stubbornly entrenched in awk. |
| 23:41.29 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: a closer relationship to how you actually think grammar and syntax wise, then, say, PHP |
| 23:41.42 | PoeticIntensity | I see... |
| 23:41.43 | PoeticIntensity | actually... |
| 23:41.47 | dataw0lf | it's often described as being very close to pseudo code, which is fitting to a certain extent. |
| 23:43.23 | PoeticIntensity | I learned javascript first (after HTML), and found that Python syntax is quite a bit closer to JavaScript than PHP... |
| 23:43.33 | PoeticIntensity | (horrible analogy, but it's what I thought) |
| 23:43.39 | dataw0lf | well |
| 23:43.43 | Sargun | Oh no! Not javascript. EWWW |
| 23:43.44 | dataw0lf | JavaScript is actually a very powerful language. |
| 23:43.49 | dataw0lf | And very modern. |
| 23:43.49 | PoeticIntensity | heh.... yup. |
| 23:43.53 | PoeticIntensity | no doubt... |
| 23:43.57 | Sargun | Without threads... |
| 23:43.59 | dataw0lf | So, yes, it's much closer to Python than PHP. |
| 23:44.00 | PoeticIntensity | it's evolved lots. |
| 23:44.14 | PoeticIntensity | the more I use JS, the more I like the way it's changed... |
| 23:44.17 | sinuhe | ecmascript, when broke away from its pseudo dynamic-html shackles, has great potential. |
| 23:44.38 | dataw0lf | sinuhe: indeed, when you strip the dependencies upon the DOM away and look at the language itself, it's actually quite potent. |
| 23:44.46 | sinuhe | I shouldn't say potential, since it is actualized. |
| 23:45.13 | dataw0lf | and if you use jQuery, JavaScript++ |
| 23:45.14 | PoeticIntensity | so.... if I'm understanding it correctly, Python and Django can completely replace PHP...? |
| 23:45.23 | sinuhe | cannot resist mentioning that HTML is data markup language, not a programming language. |
| 23:45.24 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: Certainly. |
| 23:45.43 | PoeticIntensity | are the modules integrated into apache / lighttp (sp?) |
| 23:45.49 | dataw0lf | The thing about PHP is, well, it's almost pseudo "frameworkish" |
| 23:45.51 | sinuhe | PoeticIntensity: PHP is a webserver interpreted script language. Python is a programming interpretted language, not reliant on a web server. |
| 23:45.55 | dataw0lf | due to the cluttered namespace. |
| 23:46.06 | dataw0lf | and a host of other things. |
| 23:46.15 | PoeticIntensity | thanks for the clarity, sinuhe... |
| 23:46.24 | sinuhe | is prejudiced against server side interpreted languages. Take my bias for what it is. |
| 23:46.36 | PoeticIntensity | so how does python interact with the webserver? |
| 23:46.44 | dataw0lf | depends. |
| 23:46.50 | dataw0lf | mod_python, mod_wsgi, FCGI, etc, etc. |
| 23:47.02 | sinuhe | In similar ways to perl, through modules (if we are talking about Apache). What dataw0lf said. |
| 23:47.09 | PoeticIntensity | sinuhe (not to start flaming, but PHP has a CLI interface as well, and isn't reliant on a webserver, just for the record) |
| 23:47.21 | sinuhe | I suspected you'd say that. :-) |
| 23:47.27 | PoeticIntensity | chuckles... |
| 23:47.40 | PoeticIntensity | I couldn't resist, although I'm not religious about PHP in the least. |
| 23:47.41 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: well, PHP has a host of ingrained features that are specific to web development. |
| 23:47.49 | PoeticIntensity | without a doubt. |
| 23:47.50 | dataw0lf | superglobals, etc |
| 23:47.52 | PoeticIntensity | yup. |
| 23:48.07 | dataw0lf | Python is more "pure". |
| 23:48.09 | PoeticIntensity | it's that very reason that I'm interested in learning more about Python before I jump in. |
| 23:48.15 | sinuhe | Though I shudder when thinking of PHP, I must admit that my true anti-language bias has to focus on Java. |
| 23:48.18 | sinuhe | shudders |
| 23:48.27 | PoeticIntensity | LOL |
| 23:48.38 | PoeticIntensity | the only "formal traning" I've ever had in CS is *gulp* Java. |
| 23:48.50 | PoeticIntensity | I've never used it for anything anywhere, though. |
| 23:49.15 | sinuhe | There's an excellent CS text that is online for Python. Very good place to start (though I must admit I've not read it, but am relying on the recommendation of a friend). |
| 23:49.25 | sinuhe | Said friend is python biased, however. :-) |
| 23:49.47 | PoeticIntensity | dataw0lf has recommended some online resources as well.. I've found them quite informative, for sure.. |
| 23:49.53 | PoeticIntensity | okay... question: |
| 23:50.04 | PoeticIntensity | Should I learn Python before I jump into Django? |
| 23:50.11 | PoeticIntensity | or should I learn Python *through* Django? |
| 23:50.29 | sinuhe | Use the right tool for the job. What do you want Django for? Python? |
| 23:50.37 | dataw0lf | Y'know, I don't know. I've known Python for a long, long time. My first assumption would be to say "No", but I suspect it may help to learn it through Django. |
| 23:50.51 | sontek | PoeticIntensity: definitely learn python before you learn django |
| 23:50.51 | dataw0lf | ("No" to learn Python through Django) |
| 23:50.57 | PoeticIntensity | yeah... |
| 23:51.03 | PoeticIntensity | that's what I'm learning toward as well. |
| 23:51.08 | PoeticIntensity | learning = leaning |
| 23:51.09 | sontek | PoeticIntensity: I watch to many people in #django asking fundamental python questions |
| 23:51.27 | sinuhe | I see too many using web frameworks when they don't need them. |
| 23:51.34 | PoeticIntensity | yup... such were the people who would ask me to fix their websites after they built them in Dreamweaver... |
| 23:51.38 | dataw0lf | sontek: That's true, but I mean... who cares if you learn the language, honestly? |
| 23:51.46 | PoeticIntensity | wha...!? |
| 23:51.56 | PoeticIntensity | you, my good sir, are a dork. |
| 23:51.57 | PoeticIntensity | :) |
| 23:52.05 | dataw0lf | no, I mean, if you learn the language through Django |
| 23:52.20 | dataw0lf | if you're consistent and actually want to learn the language, I don't see a huge problem with it. |
| 23:52.26 | PoeticIntensity | I see... |
| 23:52.35 | dataw0lf | Django has fairly standard namespace organization, and it's not overly complex. |
| 23:52.48 | dataw0lf | which would be my first balk at learning a language through a framework. |
| 23:52.58 | dataw0lf | Such as trying to learn Python through Zope |
| 23:53.23 | dataw0lf | Of course, the fact that you declare models with class variables as fields may be confusing.. |
| 23:53.28 | dataw0lf | shrugs |
| 23:53.31 | sinuhe | Scheme is my serenity, and awk is my vice. Past that, I dabble in C, and hope to not be forced into learning yet another interpreted language that is the coolest thing since the last sliced bread. |
| 23:53.34 | dataw0lf | I dunno, spend a couple weeks toying with Django. |
| 23:53.51 | PoeticIntensity | One of my biggest selling points when job-hunting is my ability to solve problems which come up with web development... |
| 23:54.00 | PoeticIntensity | and that comes from *knowing* the langugage... |
| 23:54.18 | PoeticIntensity | so... yeah... I wanna really learn python.... |
| 23:54.29 | sinuhe | As for web development, I've never moved beyond basic shell scripts and awk for simple assemblege client side, to be posted statically (and the occasional script for database interaction, etc.). |
| 23:54.30 | PoeticIntensity | I believe after I do that, learning how Django works will come a lot easier. |
| 23:54.44 | dataw0lf | well certainly, I'm not saying "don't learn the language!" but learning a language practically can be hard without set goals and some sort of project. |
| 23:54.53 | PoeticIntensity | no doubt. |
| 23:54.57 | dataw0lf | I just see Django as a good impetus to learn the language. |
| 23:54.57 | PoeticIntensity | it'll be through projects... |
| 23:55.03 | PoeticIntensity | ahhhhh! |
| 23:55.09 | PoeticIntensity | the light goes on! *blink* |
| 23:55.14 | dataw0lf | Right. |
| 23:55.17 | PoeticIntensity | nods... |
| 23:55.42 | PoeticIntensity | well..... How does Python lend itself to a web environment without Django? |
| 23:55.43 | dataw0lf | but yea. Maybe just toying with Python for a while would be better. |
| 23:56.04 | nick125 | PoeticIntensity: there are tons of other web frameworks ;-) |
| 23:56.05 | dataw0lf | Well you can write CGI, but that'd probably hurt you without knowledge of how to write CGI scripts. |
| 23:56.20 | PoeticIntensity | nods... |
| 23:56.22 | dataw0lf | web.py might be a good starting point |
| 23:56.41 | nick125 | Having a good knowledge of _basic_ Python will help with Django or whatever framework you use. |
| 23:56.59 | dataw0lf | I wouldn't recommend Pylons - it's complex and overly Rails-ish. |
| 23:57.08 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@c-76-27-37-88.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:57.11 | nick125 | wants to puke whenever he sees pylons |
| 23:57.38 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: http://webpy.org/ |
| 23:57.50 | dataw0lf | web.py is extremely simple. It's what reddit ran on for a long time. |
| 23:57.58 | nick125 | Web.py is a really nice design, but awful implementation. |
| 23:57.58 | PoeticIntensity | ya know.... I've never really understood why people use frameworks in PHP... When PHP is perfectly suited to being its own framework, given the right programmer... |
| 23:58.05 | PoeticIntensity | I'll take a look at it, dataw0lf |
| 23:58.33 | PoeticIntensity | python (I'm guessing) isn't that way due to its being more "pure".... right? |
| 23:58.38 | nick125 | Cherrypy isn't really a full-stack framework like Django, but it's pretty decent. |
| 23:59.02 | dataw0lf | PoeticIntensity: Right. |
| 23:59.10 | Sargun | CherryPy is freaking cool |
| 23:59.13 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:59.56 | PoeticIntensity | hehe.... Geeks amuse me..... (me being one)... in that usually it doesn't really matter what is "better" than anything... It just has to be "cooler"... |
