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| 02:38.28 | levi | Heh, I love The Importance of Being Earnest. |
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| 04:51.56 | maquis | -beat ibot |
| 04:53.18 | maquis | brb |
| 04:54.40 | Sargun | heh |
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| 05:07.30 | systematical | holy shnit |
| 05:07.35 | systematical | there are actually people in here |
| 05:08.50 | Sargun | uh, language. |
| 05:08.57 | Supaplex | where? |
| 05:09.14 | findlay | so, what are you guys out yammering about on IRC this lovely Sunday evening? |
| 05:09.23 | Sargun | What the heck is Skype doing: /opt/skype/avatars/Call Me Sweetheart.png |
| 05:09.39 | findlay | Sargun: why are you using skype? |
| 05:09.52 | Sargun | findlay, I have to use it for work :-( |
| 05:09.58 | findlay | Sargun: :-( |
| 05:10.01 | Sargun | I hate it too. |
| 05:10.23 | Sargun | I'm not some weird skype-loving nutso |
| 05:11.01 | findlay | there ought to be a comporable OSS app built on open standards that supports iax2 and sip that runs on multi platforms |
| 05:11.18 | findlay | Sargun: why don't you write for me? |
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| 05:11.37 | maquis | ah... much better |
| 05:11.38 | Supaplex | ~lart vendor lockin |
| 05:11.38 | ibot | beats vendor lockin into protomatter with the andromeda galaxy |
| 05:11.40 | findlay | I'll make you some steamed broccoli |
| 05:11.58 | Sargun | findlay, Why don't you pay me? |
| 05:12.23 | findlay | Sargun: I'm paying you. Don't you realize the price of broccoli these days? |
| 05:12.41 | Supaplex | o.O |
| 05:12.45 | findlay | heh |
| 05:17.31 | findlay | hm, now that I think about it, shipping perishable food all the way to Sargun may not be practical |
| 05:17.43 | findlay | there has to be some other way |
| 05:18.55 | Supaplex | DCC! |
| 05:19.05 | findlay | that's it! |
| 05:19.24 | findlay | DCC's money to Sargun |
| 05:28.11 | Sargun | hehe |
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| 05:37.38 | findlay | so, where's the app? You owe it to the world to produce the skype killer |
| 05:40.17 | Sargun | I don't see the money yet |
| 05:40.43 | Sargun | lag |
| 05:40.52 | findlay | probably |
| 05:41.03 | findlay | it'll get there Real Soon Now |
| 05:42.11 | findlay | do you think iax or sip would be better? |
| 05:42.28 | Sargun | IAX2 |
| 05:42.38 | findlay | why? |
| 05:42.41 | Sargun | better yet, write an extension ontop of IAX2 |
| 05:42.49 | Sargun | better NAT friendliness |
| 05:43.20 | findlay | and the efficiency of SIP doesn't mean much for a single user |
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| 06:14.13 | maquis | sweet! |
| 06:14.32 | maquis | it looks like sudo timeouts start at the end of the sudo'd command, rather than the beginning? |
| 06:14.38 | maquis | or did i just get really lucky? |
| 06:16.11 | Supaplex | findlay: yea, call it ipv6 oh wait... |
| 06:20.19 | maquis | ok... this looks positive |
| 06:22.28 | maquis | i'm going to bed |
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| 06:50.29 | Sargun | Supaplex, I have IPv6. |
| 06:50.33 | Sargun | Supaplex, do you? |
| 07:32.48 | tyler | I think, my tmobile phone is the skype killer |
| 07:32.53 | tyler | call me crazy |
| 07:39.31 | Sargun | hehe |
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| 13:02.20 | ^Migs^ | DENVER -- A Denver man who wants the city to be prepared for space aliens is proposing a commission to deal with the matter |
| 13:02.25 | ^Migs^ | Peckman says an 18-member commission would form a strategy dealing with issues related to the presence of extraterrestrial beings on Earth. |
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| 13:10.18 | goozbach | ^Migs^: that's important in Colorado. |
| 13:10.23 | goozbach | that's where the stargate is |
| 13:10.37 | goozbach | there are LOTS of space aliens there |
| 13:10.41 | ^Migs^ | agreed |
| 13:10.59 | goozbach | most of them have a symbol tatooed on their forehead, but still. they're there. |
| 13:11.36 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
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| 14:25.25 | elg | findlay: ping |
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| 14:30.18 | elg | ~lart dmdavis |
| 14:30.18 | ibot | executes killall -TERM dmdavis |
| 14:30.48 | dmdavis | dies. |
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| 14:51.21 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | UTOSC 2008 Call for Papers @http://2008.utosc.com | PLUG server moved. Report issues to rsimpkins. | Ubuntu 8.04 released - use the torrents - http://releases.ubuntu.com/8.04/ | Your mom goes to college |
| 15:08.05 | mrpull | what was the name of that "undergroundish" hyperlinked p2p alter-web that made a big stir 3-5 years ago? |
| 15:08.07 | mrpull | freenet? |
| 15:08.29 | mrpull | that was it... just had to ask the question for my brain to kick in and remember |
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| 15:13.49 | Tene | Huh. http://use.perl.org/~LaPerla/journal/36320 |
| 15:14.05 | Tene | a quarter of all modules on cpan have been uploaded within th elast 3.8 months. |
| 15:16.04 | utahcon | rebuild? |
| 15:20.48 | findlay | elg: pong |
| 15:21.01 | elg | got a recommended recording for rach's vespers? |
| 15:21.18 | findlay | nope |
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| 15:52.36 | goozbach | ~convert 120mph to fps |
| 15:52.57 | goozbach | ~convert 120fps to mph |
| 15:53.08 | elg | miles per hour to frames per second eh? |
| 15:53.21 | levi | That's what I thought at first, too. :P |
| 15:56.20 | levi | elg: Aren't you also a fan of The Importance of Being Earnest? |
| 15:56.24 | elg | yeah |
| 15:56.34 | levi | My wife just bought the DVD. |
| 15:56.55 | levi | What a great movie. :) |
| 15:57.54 | elg | yeah :) |
| 15:57.58 | elg | have you seen waking ned devine? |
| 15:58.16 | levi | Nope. |
| 15:58.21 | elg | that's a good one |
| 16:02.23 | levi | Aiee, I don't know if I can watch a movie with naked old guys on motorcycles. |
| 16:03.55 | elg | heh |
| 16:03.57 | elg | you'll survive |
| 16:03.58 | elg | it's hilarious |
| 16:08.06 | levi | Huh, I had no idea John Lithgow was in 2010: The Year We Make Contact |
| 16:10.33 | dmdavis | elg: he may survive, but he will be a hollow shell of what he once was. I still have nightmares of that wrinkley old butt on the motorcycle |
| 16:11.26 | elg | heh |
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| 16:41.44 | gshipley | How much is gas in Utah? |
| 16:42.30 | findlay | 3.5 |
| 16:43.26 | gshipley | bout the same here 3.66 currently |
| 16:43.33 | gshipley | ^^ here = raleigh |
| 16:47.58 | harleypig | it's 3.70 in SF. |
| 16:48.17 | gshipley | San Fran? |
| 16:48.21 | gshipley | ah, spanish fork? |
| 16:48.23 | harleypig | Spanish Fork. |
| 16:48.25 | harleypig | :] |
| 16:48.39 | gshipley | I heard they destroyed the off of the freeway there |
| 16:48.43 | gshipley | the park |
| 16:48.53 | harleypig | Yeah ... they're putting in a strip mall. |
| 16:48.59 | gshipley | AWESOME! |
| 16:49.20 | harleypig | heh ... my son thought that meant there would be strippers there. |
| 16:49.32 | gshipley | in utah county? |
| 16:49.36 | gshipley | that is funny |
| 16:49.36 | gshipley | L( |
| 16:50.01 | harleypig | Did you hear about the practical joke somebody pulled some years ago just before they tore down the ... |
| 16:50.06 | harleypig | Ambassador? theatre? |
| 16:50.16 | dmdavis | my wife has friends whose (BYU) roomate was a stripper |
| 16:50.17 | harleypig | The one on University Ave and near Center St. |
| 16:50.26 | harleypig | dmdavis: in slc? |
| 16:50.38 | harleypig | Southern Exposure or the lke? |
| 16:50.41 | gshipley | whats her name? Maybe I know her. j/k |
| 16:50.43 | dmdavis | not sure. just know she lived in Provo |
| 16:50.46 | harleypig | heh |
| 16:50.46 | dmdavis | :) |
| 16:50.55 | dmdavis | she cleaned the house in just rubber gloves |
| 16:51.17 | harleypig | wow |
| 16:51.19 | dmdavis | but apparently, she was rather unattractive |
| 16:51.29 | gshipley | that reminds me of the "bad naked" seinfeld episode |
| 16:52.20 | utahcon | used to be a cleaning service in SLC called the Black Rose, they cleaned in the buff-ish |
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| 17:01.48 | levi | harleypig: So, what was the practical joke? |
| 17:04.59 | levi | I wonder how a stripper manages to avoid the Honor Code police at BYU, too. |
| 17:05.50 | dmdavis | levi: I should clarify. my wife's friends were BYU students, I don't know if the stripper was |
| 17:05.54 | utahcon | I would make a horrible Honor Cop |
| 17:07.13 | gshipley | I would have to see the violation and judge for myself |
| 17:07.55 | gshipley | or at least see photographic and/or video of the alledged violation |
| 17:08.05 | dmdavis | gshipley: remember: bad naked |
| 17:08.15 | utahcon | naked = bad? what? |
| 17:08.18 | utahcon | since when? |
| 17:08.42 | dmdavis | utahcon: I didn't say naked was bad. This one was, though, from what I'm told |
| 17:09.21 | utahcon | oh I follow |
| 17:09.39 | utahcon | I think my wife would be happy if I hired a maid... naked or not :d |
| 17:09.57 | levi | dmdavis: A female friend of mine had roommates in on-campus housing that were often drinking and sleeping with their boyfriends. |
| 17:10.12 | utahcon | probably more happy the more clothes she wore... but really... how mad can she be... the house is clean! |
| 17:10.26 | dmdavis | levi: yeah, I think there were an awful lot of violations |
| 17:10.26 | utahcon | runs and tells |
| 17:11.01 | utahcon | I don't think I saw a single girl I would have slept with in College (note: I went to ITT) |
| 17:11.28 | elg | on-campus housing is a serious risk for ulcers |
| 17:11.29 | gshipley | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:11.36 | elg | i'm glad i lived off campus |
| 17:12.03 | levi | I had fun with on-campus housing while I was there, but it didn't help my GPA. |
| 17:12.37 | gshipley | I live in a co-ed dorm at UT |
| 17:12.48 | gshipley | that was an interesting freshman year |
| 17:12.53 | gshipley | live = lived |
| 17:13.25 | findlay | rsimpkins: ping |
| 17:14.01 | levi | The worst violations I ever saw were guys downloading naked girlie pics on their computers. That, and a guy who mooned the window after yelling 'Hey University Police!'. He got kicked out because there happend to be both a girl and a university police guy outside at the time, and he never went to the Honor Code court hearings or whatever they were. |
| 17:14.40 | levi | I saw a ton of violations of the off-campus housing policies when I lived off-campus, though. |
| 17:15.06 | elg | s/on-campus/within a mile of campus/ |
| 17:15.07 | tensai | elg: http://www.elise.com/recipes/archives/007227chile_relleno_casserole.php |
| 17:15.13 | brac | [Chile Relleno Casserole Recipe | Simply Recipes] |
| 17:15.23 | elg | i lived in pg |
| 17:16.00 | levi | elg: I think my last BYU-approved housing was more than a mile from campus. It was a duplex near downtown Provo. |
| 17:16.21 | elg | two miles then. whatever the limit was :) I think they shrunk it down after you left though |
| 17:16.28 | levi | It was definitely different from living right next to campus. |
| 17:16.43 | levi | How'd you manage to live in pg? With family? |
| 17:16.46 | elg | yeah |
| 17:16.52 | levi | Ah, lucky you. |
| 17:16.55 | elg | yeah :) |
| 17:17.04 | gshipley | Speaking of Chile Relleno.... We are having a cinco party here at work today. Keg and Margarittas. |
| 17:17.20 | gshipley | That was the weirdest adjustment for me when I moved from Utah. People drink at work like its normal |
| 17:17.48 | gshipley | or maybe -- people in utah don't drink at work and act like thats normal ;) |
| 17:18.12 | elg | tensai: you'll have to try it and let me know |
| 17:18.30 | elg | i'm thinking egg batter baked is quite a different beast from fried, but i didn't inspect the recipe closely |
| 17:18.38 | tensai | elg: I just might. I've been wanting to try my hand at chile relleno. |
| 17:19.05 | levi | Anyway, I thought on-campus and near off-campus housing were lots of fun and a good experience overall, at least if you've got enough discipline to get your studying done in addition to playing. |
| 17:19.12 | tensai | elg: I had some at a restaurant the other week and wasn't really impressed. they're just so soggy. |
| 17:20.00 | elg | tensai: restaurants usually mess them up royally |
| 17:20.01 | elg | even here |
| 17:20.13 | tensai | yes, I'm reviewing your blog post about it |
| 17:20.42 | levi | I wasn't actually attending BYU for most of the time I was living in the duplex, and it was fun too, but quite a bit of a different experience. |
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| 17:56.06 | findlay | 1&1 == dung |
| 17:58.03 | utahcon | the host? |
| 17:58.26 | findlay | the registrar |
| 18:06.08 | tensai | elg: what do you mean by "ice water". water with ice in it, or just really really cold water? |
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| 18:12.43 | Tene | utahcon: both, actually. |
| 18:14.43 | ^Migs^ | warm water can have ice in it |
| 18:16.09 | findlay | green water too |
| 18:18.56 | levi | What about warm green water? |
| 18:20.17 | Sargun | Ugh, I wish Palm came out with a good phone |
| 18:20.21 | elg | tensai: in what context? |
| 18:20.24 | Sargun | they are developing a new Linux based OS |
| 18:20.36 | Sargun | My company won the contract for part of it. |
| 18:20.44 | Sargun | but I doubt its going anywhere. |
| 18:20.56 | Sargun | (company= employer) |
| 18:21.08 | Sargun | We haven't gotten any specs for months. |
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| 18:23.16 | Sargun | I wish I didn't care about speed and I could go with GSM. |
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| 18:51.01 | harleypig | Is anyone familiar with ext.js here? |
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| 18:53.13 | sontek | is there a good gnome app for media center pc? or do most people just run mythtv? |
| 18:53.37 | sontek | most important thing is interace that works well with a remote |
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| 19:03.31 | rsimpkins | ~pong findlay |
| 19:03.31 | ibot | findlay: PONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 19:06.02 | findlay | rsimpkins: well I transferred my domain to 1&1, but their DNS tools are garbage. They won't let me update my DNS servers to everydns. Just wondering if you had any advice |
| 19:06.05 | tensai | elg: in the chile relleno recipe |
| 19:07.32 | elg | tensai: really really cold, as in ice water with the ice removed |
| 19:07.34 | elg | or just melted |
| 19:07.45 | tensai | ok |
| 19:08.03 | elg | you could even have ice chunks in it |
| 19:08.05 | elg | I did |
| 19:08.15 | elg | as long as 90% isn't ice or something :) |
| 19:08.25 | elg | that way it'll stay ice cold while you do your thing |
| 19:08.48 | elg | let's say ½ cup ice water and as much ice as you want |
| 19:09.22 | elg | that's 1/2. fractions in that new font don't show up so well |
| 19:10.38 | tensai | showed up fine for me |
| 19:10.44 | tensai | ~unicode++ |
| 19:10.50 | elg | cool |
| 19:11.42 | elg | gonna do it tonight? |
| 19:12.00 | tensai | probably not. we're having brinner and I can't skip that. |
| 19:12.10 | elg | as in yule brenner? |
| 19:12.18 | elg | i wouldn't skip out on yule either |
| 19:12.24 | tensai | breakfast + dinner == brinner |
| 19:12.56 | tensai | french toast, eggs, sausage. mmm. |
| 19:13.13 | elg | we do that when we're lazy |
| 19:13.19 | elg | since breakfast is easier to make :) |
| 19:13.26 | elg | so i imply that you're lazy |
| 19:13.39 | tensai | no, you infer that I'm lazy |
| 19:13.45 | elg | that too |
| 19:13.56 | elg | you inferred that my implication was related to my previous statements |
| 19:14.05 | elg | so you imply that i'm rational |
| 19:14.34 | tensai | drops an anvil on elg |
| 19:14.42 | tensai | infer that |
| 19:19.15 | elg | levi: so I am finally done with the semester (well, I still have to grade the finals, but i've got all week) |
| 19:19.52 | elg | so I'm debating whether to pick up python, clojure or another functional language with concurrency, decent string support, and probably access to massive libraries e.g. the jvm or clr, or both |
| 19:19.59 | elg | (as in, or both languages) |
| 19:28.00 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=shnocksh@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 19:33.17 | rsimpkins | findlay: I am using everydns with 1and1. |
| 19:33.29 | rsimpkins | findlay: Let me log in to the tool real quick. |
| 19:34.36 | rsimpkins | manage domains->select domain->dns drop down->edit dns |
| 19:35.01 | rsimpkins | change 'basic dns settings' to 'my name server' |
| 19:40.49 | findlay | rsimpkins: I tried that. The form gave me back an error "You did something wrong. Please see error below" and there's no error below |
| 19:47.20 | findlay | rsimpkins: and the DNS menu entries are grayed out |
| 19:49.53 | findlay | rsimpkins: nm, figured it out |
| 19:50.07 | *** join/#utah utahcon (n=barreta@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:50.09 | *** join/#utah utahco1 (n=barreta@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 19:50.27 | findlay | the error wasn't showing up unless I had only one DNS server listed. Their form is busted |
| 19:51.03 | findlay | thanks for making me look at it again though, :) |
| 19:54.06 | rsimpkins | It won't let you define only one DNS server? |
| 19:54.21 | rsimpkins | I always define at least three, so I guess I've not seen that issue. |
| 19:55.19 | tensai | rfcs state you should define at least two, and more is better |
| 19:56.39 | findlay | rsimpkins: well I had put in all 4 and the error was hidden, whereas when I just put in one it brought up some silly checkbox about "am I sure declose legal perfunct obligation on US?" |
| 19:57.17 | elg | haha |
| 20:00.50 | findlay | sounded like the legal and marketing departments crashed together and spewed easter egg all over the website |
| 20:01.56 | tensai | spewed something |
| 20:02.30 | *** join/#utah redbeard3 (n=redbeard@63-148-163-200.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 20:02.45 | findlay | s/egg/eggs/? |
| 20:03.41 | maquis | ~lart findlay |
| 20:03.41 | ibot | takes findlay to the vet for a "special" visit |
| 20:04.29 | findlay | ~bzfrag maquis |
| 20:04.30 | ibot | ACTION destroys maquis with a guided missile |
| 20:05.14 | findlay | how's it going maquis? |
| 20:05.20 | maquis | findlay: pretty well |
| 20:05.52 | maquis | it's been pretty crazy recently |
| 20:15.13 | Sargun | wishes the kindle was an open device. |
| 20:19.53 | maquis | Sargun: me too |
| 20:20.14 | findlay | ugh, I don't like the name besides |
| 20:20.22 | maquis | really? i like the name |
| 20:20.27 | maquis | and they're pretty cute little devices |
| 20:21.07 | findlay | maquis: well, yeah. You've been imbibing the amazon koolaid for like over a year now? :-) |
| 20:21.10 | elg | the name is ok, but i'd be extra careful to keep it away from someone making a fire |
| 20:21.15 | tensai | maquis: next time you're having lunch with Tim, mention it |
| 20:21.18 | Sargun | maquis, you should poke into it. Don't you have access to Lab126? |
| 20:21.37 | maquis | tensai: tim who? |
| 20:21.45 | findlay | tensai: you mean jeff? |
| 20:21.45 | maquis | findlay: i don't drink koolaid :) |
| 20:21.57 | elg | she drinks "punch" |
| 20:22.01 | findlay | heh |
| 20:22.03 | Sargun | heeh |
| 20:22.05 | tensai | maquis: sorry, I meant jeff. was thinking of oreilly for some reason. |
| 20:22.14 | maquis | Sargun: i don't even know what you're referring to... but then i'm kind-of on the other end of the company |
| 20:22.18 | maquis | tensai: ah.. |
| 20:22.36 | tensai | clearly *I* don't hang out with him |
| 20:23.04 | Sargun | maquis, Ahh. Lab126 is the division of Amazon that made the kindle. |
| 20:24.00 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 20:26.47 | tensai | sets up smokeping to keep an eye on his ISP |
| 20:29.35 | eltiare | Hey does anyone here know of game developers in need of a music composer? |
| 20:33.11 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=shnocksh@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 20:34.56 | elg | eltiare: wesnoth.org |
| 20:35.23 | eltiare | elg: Lol, I already contribute there. I mean for *money*. :) |
| 20:35.39 | eltiare | My screen name there is Jeremy2 |
| 20:35.42 | elg | oh, i thought you meant oss |
| 20:36.09 | elg | what did you write? |
| 20:36.31 | eltiare | Vengeful Pursuit, Nunc Dimittis, Reminisce.... |
| 20:37.00 | eltiare | A couple people have used Snowfall in their campaigns as well.. |
| 20:38.16 | eltiare | Reminisce isn't in the game yet, I'm having trouble with the reverb that *seriously* need fixing. |
| 20:38.17 | elg | i'm afraid i don't know the songs by name |
| 20:38.44 | eltiare | Vengeful Pursuit is the ones with the war drums. Nunc Dimittis has the boy's choir. |
| 20:39.15 | eltiare | VP also has a blaring ending I'd like to change eventually. |
| 20:39.32 | elg | cool |
| 20:40.01 | elg | VP starts out do so do? |
| 20:40.37 | eltiare | Kind of. The trombone melody? |
| 20:41.12 | elg | trombones, that sounds about right :) |
| 20:41.18 | elg | I'm not where I can listen to it |
| 20:41.51 | eltiare | It's all good. I think it is the one you are thinking of. |
| 20:42.16 | elg | cool |
| 20:43.05 | eltiare | I'd just love to get into some paid gigs. I have people tell me that I could easily do it, but it's a matter of finding people now. |
| 20:43.43 | elg | might chat with dilvie if you can catch him |
| 20:43.49 | elg | he might have some contacts |
| 20:44.41 | elg | late night is probably the best bet |
| 20:47.27 | eltiare | Had lunch with him last Friday, actually. They suggested that one of the places that I come is here. |
| 20:48.24 | elg | i'll ping my brother in law. he's an artist at a game company |
| 20:48.47 | eltiare | That would be awesome. |
| 20:48.50 | eltiare | Thanks. |
| 20:49.10 | elg | we'll have to play wesnoth sometime |
| 20:49.19 | eltiare | That'd be cool. |
| 20:49.32 | eltiare | I got some time tomorrow evening. |
| 20:49.34 | elg | you'd kick my trash probably. but it always needs a good kicking |
| 20:49.54 | eltiare | lol. Possibly. I've spent more time programming and composing as of late than playing. |
| 20:50.41 | elg | feels a lot better about this final. 2/3 of the students have already left (10 minutes to go) |
| 20:50.49 | elg | that means I finally didn't make it too hard |
| 20:51.10 | eltiare | Where do you go to school? |
| 20:51.12 | elg | ... or that i made it so hard they could see the fruitlessness |
| 20:51.16 | elg | NMSU |
| 20:51.25 | eltiare | Oh, wait, you are a teacher? |
| 20:51.31 | elg | yeah, grad student |
| 20:51.45 | eltiare | Oh, cool. |
| 20:51.45 | elg | c programming class for non-CS majors |
| 20:51.54 | elg | overseeing their final torture now |
| 20:51.55 | eltiare | I bet that's fun for you. |
| 20:51.58 | eltiare | Yup. |
| 20:56.00 | eltiare | Oh, if you want to hear more of my stuff, you can go to: http://gnexp.com/secret_music |
| 20:56.04 | brac | [Secret Music] |
| 20:57.23 | levi | elg: Scala would be an interesting choice, then. |
| 20:57.37 | elg | yeah, scala is on my radar |
| 20:57.53 | levi | elg: It's primarily a JVM language, but there's a .net version that gets occasional updates. |
| 20:58.03 | elg | i'm thinking python because i'd like to work at google, and i know they use python |
| 20:58.36 | levi | Python's a good language to know. |
| 20:59.17 | utahco1 | python is a strong language |
| 20:59.19 | elg | but on one hand I feel a little redundant learning it since i already know ruby. whereas a functional language would have more "novelty" (for lack of a better word) |
| 20:59.31 | levi | Learning it will largely be an exercise in learning Python style and libraries, though. |
| 20:59.35 | *** join/#utah hatchmt (n=mhatch_@nat/novell/x-1d41fa6dc8e8d2b2) |
| 20:59.36 | elg | exactly |
| 20:59.46 | utahco1 | language is language |
| 20:59.52 | levi | utahco1: Not really. |
| 20:59.56 | utahco1 | once you know how to program most of learning a new language is just syntax |
| 21:00.06 | elg | learning a new c-like language, yes |
| 21:00.09 | levi | utahco1: You clearly haven't tried to write a decent-sized program in haskell. |
| 21:00.15 | utahco1 | nope |
| 21:00.30 | levi | utahco1: Well, go try, and then come back and tell us that language is language. :) |
| 21:01.02 | levi | Alternatively, try Forth or Prolog. |
| 21:02.14 | levi | Or APL. :) |
| 21:02.31 | elg | levi: some of my criteria, yet to be fully hammered out, is concurrency, sane string support, cross-platform gui libs (preferably qt or wx), and some way to get to JACK |
| 21:02.42 | utahco1 | Haskell looks complicated, but most of what I am seeing makes sense |
| 21:03.06 | levi | utahco1: Looking at Haskell and writing a program in it are two entirely different things. |
| 21:03.15 | utahco1 | oh no doubt |
| 21:03.26 | *** join/#utah shnockshnee_ (n=shnocksh@66-240-26-8.isp.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 21:03.41 | levi | Haskell makes a lot of sense, but it's fundamentally different than C-like languages. |
| 21:06.12 | utahco1 | bookmarks the Learn Haskell pages |
| 21:06.19 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:06.19 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 21:06.36 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 21:07.03 | *** part/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 21:07.28 | levi | The execution model is call-by-need and purely functional. It's statically typed, but types are inferred. Most conditional execution is based on pattern-matching. Polymorphism is based on the concept of algebraic data types and type classes. The libraries make heavy use of the concept of the monad, which is a type class. |
| 21:08.13 | levi | It's even got special syntax for working with monads. |
| 21:12.32 | sjansen | Haskell? |
| 21:12.56 | levi | The term 'monad' comes from category theory, a branch of mathematics sometimes called 'abstract nonsense'. Regarding monads in the context of Haskell, there are probably 20-30 'monad tutorials' that attempt to explain them to people who persist in not understanding them despite having read several of the tutorials. |
| 21:13.01 | levi | sjansen: Yeah. |
| 21:13.59 | levi | sjansen: The context is that elg wants to learn a new language, utahco1 says 'language is language, once you learn one you know them all', and I brought up Haskell as a counterexample. |
| 21:14.04 | *** join/#utah mrpull (i=xmjake@newshell.xmission.com) |
| 21:14.15 | sjansen | I think I've finally come to grasp with what a monad is, and it's actually a pretty simple concept if people didn't hide it behind such funky terminology. |
| 21:14.29 | sjansen | Still need practice programming them though. |
| 21:15.17 | levi | Yeah, they aren't actually terribly complicated, it's just that they're hard to explain in words. |
| 21:16.06 | levi | And the problem is not really understand what a monad is, but why and how they're used in Haskell, and how they fit in with the language and libraries. |
| 21:16.08 | sjansen | As I understand it, a monad is a data type that has a couple of basic function. IIRC, an identity function and a "transform" function that takes data of one type, combines it with a monad and creates a new monad. |
| 21:16.43 | dmdavis | has to be associative, I think |
| 21:17.00 | levi | Right, when you say 'this type is a monad' it means that it conforms to the monad 'api' and the monad laws. |
| 21:17.27 | levi | Declaring it to be of the monad type class enforces the api, but not the monad laws. |
| 21:17.35 | sjansen | By using monads as "wrappers" around data, you can turn them as a sort of "tag" that can be used to reason about data as it is passed through a series of functions. |
| 21:18.15 | dmdavis | eltiare: I'm enjoying your "secret_music" |
| 21:18.33 | eltiare | dmdavis: Thanks! :) |
| 21:18.57 | sjansen | Haskell has a "Maybe" monad which basically means the function may or may not return data and your code has to deal with both possiblities. Kinda like Null but less dangerous. |
| 21:19.14 | levi | sjansen: List is also a monad. |
| 21:19.23 | levi | sjansen: It can be used to model nondeterminism. |
| 21:20.28 | sjansen | Or the "IO" monad which is a warning that "this function alters the state of the universe" so instead of calling it on demand, order actually matters. |
| 21:21.46 | levi | The monad basically provides a way to compose functions with a fixed API. The different monads make that composition mean different things, though. |
| 21:22.04 | utahco1 | I think I am to young to know this one... call me ignorant even... but how much is haskell and similar languages used today? |
| 21:22.30 | levi | utahco1: More than you'd guess, but not on the scale of C# or even Python. |
| 21:22.50 | utahco1 | The way you guys are talking I would assume so. |
| 21:23.05 | utahco1 | I am always amazed when I hear about a language I have never heard of before, for whatever reason. |
| 21:23.21 | utahco1 | I remember my first (and thankfully last) run in with Cause-And-Effect |
| 21:23.36 | levi | It's a research-oriented language, but it was designed such that it can be used for real-world programming. |
| 21:23.48 | sjansen | There are two problems with monads: 1) Just like looping and branching, the only way to learn to use monads appropriately is practice. 2) For some reason math geeks insist on making things complicated instead of talking about the nitty gritty programmers care about. |
| 21:25.17 | levi | sjansen: Well, haskell geeks tend to want what they say about monads to be generally true, not just true for specific monads. And the concept of a monad is abstract enough that it's a hard problem to talk about them and make what you say both generally correct and detailed. |
| 21:27.20 | sjansen | utahco1: Haskell and Ocaml and such may not be widely used, but the concepts behind them will be mined for years to come. For example, LINQ in C# is based heavily on experience gained from Haskell, although most programmers will never know or care. |
| 21:27.30 | levi | There are a number of Haskell library functions whose type signatures specify Monad, but not a specific type of monad. Like Data.Map.lookup, for example. If you're not careful, you might execute it in the context of the List monad, which will not give you the result you're thinking of at all. |
| 21:28.30 | maquis | argh!!!! |
| 21:28.39 | utahco1 | I often wish I had been around from the beginning of computers ;) I feel so out of touch with so much stuff, and I struggle to learn what I can as fast as I can, I just can't seem to keep up (sigh) |
| 21:28.48 | sjansen | For me, I like to learn more "fringe" languages because its fun and also because it teaches me to think in new ways. I may be writing in C, but by translating concepts from Haskell I (in moderation), my design may end up being more powerful and maintainable. |
| 21:29.16 | levi | On the other hand, if you set up a monadic function in the right way, you can have it bail on the first correct answer with the Maybe monad, or have it calculate all correct answers with the List monad. |
| 21:30.12 | levi | maquis: argh???? |
| 21:30.45 | sjansen | utahco1: No man, the most interesting stuff is now and 5 years from now. I'm glad I wasn't around in the beginning, I probably would've walked away after dropping my first box of punch cards. |
| 21:30.48 | levi | utahco1: Things were simpler in some ways then, but then they didn't have a lot of stuff that we take for granted now. |
| 21:31.09 | utahco1 | oh no I would still be in it today |
| 21:31.19 | utahco1 | I have never had the chance to use punch cards (oddly I want to) |
| 21:31.26 | utahco1 | I want the experience some of the older guys in the business have |
| 21:31.33 | utahco1 | the knowledge of why things are they way they are |
| 21:31.52 | utahco1 | Although, admittedly, the more I learn the more I understand that I don't know sh*t |
| 21:32.15 | levi | Fortunately, most of the reasons things are the way they are are well-documented, if you care enough to research them. |
| 21:32.22 | sjansen | That's why you sit at their feet and ask questions. In five minutes you can learn what took them 6 months to figure out. |
| 21:32.45 | levi | Answers will differ depending on who you ask, though. :) |
| 21:32.56 | utahco1 | Too true |
| 21:32.58 | utahco1 | and I do |
| 21:33.13 | levi | I believe that schools do a great injustice by not teaching the history of computing. |
| 21:33.13 | utahco1 | I just married a lovely woman who's grandfather worked for IBM more years than I have been alive |
| 21:33.21 | maquis | levi: just letting out some steam |
| 21:33.23 | utahco1 | she has stories and solutions to problems I never would have imagined. |
| 21:34.01 | utahco1 | my biggest problem in learning more about what is and was is that I am too proud to admit I don't know :O |
| 21:34.13 | sjansen | ~steam maquis |
| 21:34.33 | sjansen | ~boil maquis |
| 21:34.34 | ibot | ACTION boils maquis in a hot steaming kettle of beezlenut oil |
| 21:34.35 | levi | I also think that the computing history that is covered is colored so deeply with bias as to be completely worthless. |
| 21:35.24 | levi | I.e., the bias that anything that didn't take off in the industry must have been wrong or otherwise worthless. |
| 21:35.37 | utahco1 | totally agree levi |
| 21:35.48 | utahco1 | just because it wasnt the most popular doesnt mean it was wrong |
| 21:35.57 | levi | utahco1: This bias is why you had the notion that languages are all alike aside from syntax. |
| 21:36.38 | utahco1 | aye it is |
| 21:36.42 | levi | The notion is clearly wrong, but only if you've had exposure beyond the mainstream set of languages. |
| 21:37.45 | levi | utahco1: Anyway, if you want an eye-opening experience regarding the state of computer science today, look for some Alan Kay presentations on YouTube. |
| 21:38.17 | utahco1 | will do |
| 21:41.21 | levi | Actually, more of his presentations seem to be on google video than youtube. |
| 21:45.17 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-06918abd45ab0955) |
| 21:45.17 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 21:45.53 | sjansen | ~fart emcnabb |
| 21:45.53 | ibot | ACTION farts in emcnabb's general direction |
| 21:46.05 | levi | If you don't know who he is, he was part of the team at Xerox PARC that develped the Alto, which is the machine that the Apple guys saw there. |
| 21:46.21 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | UTOSC 2008 Call for Papers @http://2008.utosc.com | Bow before me for I am ROOT |
| 21:46.52 | elg | kneel before zod |
| 21:53.44 | maquis | ~lart emcnabb |
| 21:53.44 | ibot | executes killall -HUP emcnabb |
| 21:57.33 | sjansen | ~botsnack maquis |
| 21:57.33 | ibot | thanks, sjansen |
| 21:57.47 | sjansen | ~reward maquis |
| 21:57.47 | ibot | ACTION gives maquis a brownie point. And a *kick* in the pants! |
| 21:57.51 | levi | elg: BTW, an update to the pdf of 'Programming in Scala' was just released. |
| 21:58.21 | eltiare | Yuck, I'd never want to deal with punch cards, utahco1. |
| 21:59.13 | elg | he probably doesn't want to deal with punch cards. he wants to heft them and feel some magical connection with the glory days |
| 21:59.22 | elg | if he had to actually *use* them, I'm sure they'd get old quick |
| 22:03.41 | sjansen | ~heft elg |
| 22:03.48 | sjansen | ~launch elg |
| 22:03.49 | ibot | ACTION straps elg to an ACME rocket, lights the fuse and ducks behind a rock |
| 22:03.56 | elg | gains weight instantly to avoid being hefted |
| 22:03.59 | levi | utahco1: I like this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9055536763288165825&q=&hl=en |
| 22:05.13 | utahco1 | I'll watch as soon as I can (work blocks media :( ) |
| 22:05.55 | elg | heh |
| 22:06.00 | elg | I just overheard a funny quip |
| 22:06.01 | utahco1 | no not heh |
| 22:06.10 | utahco1 | it is frustrating |
| 22:06.12 | elg | "That's the problem with parallel programming. Computers can do it but humans can't." |
| 22:06.40 | utahco1 | so many sites with Flickr hosted images or YouTube videos... blocked. Things that would be helpful like tutorials on design and coding standards practices. |
| 22:06.43 | levi | elg: Heh. Depends on what you mean by 'do it' :) |
| 22:07.10 | elg | looks like they found out he was using irc too |
| 22:07.39 | findlay | ~pity utahco1 |
| 22:07.40 | ibot | I pity da fool utahco1! |
| 22:08.08 | dmdavis | woah. The A-Team theme just came up on my playlist |
| 22:08.10 | dmdavis | uncanny |
| 22:08.20 | dmdavis | how'd you do that, ibot? |
| 22:08.34 | tensai | punch cards + kitchen = http://youtube.com/watch?v=y9gCm9_tcLM |
| 22:08.38 | elg | don't question ibot's power |
| 22:09.51 | findlay | rsimpkins: so, I updated my DNS servers to everydns, but now dig tells me I'm being served by I.GTLD.BIZ?! |
| 22:10.40 | elg | the cookery-book is replaced by punch cards! |
| 22:10.53 | tensai | elg: cokery-book, even |
| 22:10.59 | elg | oh yeah |
| 22:11.13 | tensai | because you can never get enough coke in your food |
| 22:11.22 | elg | heh |
| 22:14.49 | findlay | interesting |
| 22:14.49 | findlay | guess I shouldn't have freaked out |
| 22:18.51 | tensai | findlay: yeah that's the right set of name servers for the .net TLD |
| 22:22.19 | findlay | tensai: but my domain is a .us |
| 22:22.31 | tensai | not jfindlay.net? |
| 22:22.32 | tensai | hmm |
| 22:23.13 | tensai | heh. I did search jfindlay.us. I just typed .net here for some reason. |
| 22:23.30 | findlay | well, poking the big, nameless DNS machine on the intarwebs with some more specific queries, like for MX started bringing back just the everydns info |
| 22:23.39 | tensai | I should have known that. .net is handled by verisign. |
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