| 00:00.37 | Supaplex | I'm interested in a few new (to me) recipes for my machine. Have any you reccomend for a 1.5lb loaf of whole wheat? |
| 00:01.05 | elg | i'm not sure how a bread machine would change things, but I could give you a good recipe for 1.5 lb ww bread |
| 00:01.07 | Supaplex | s/Have any you/Do you have/ |
| 00:01.14 | Supaplex | okay |
| 00:01.32 | elg | can you set your machine to start kneading at a certain time? |
| 00:01.40 | Supaplex | I think so |
| 00:01.46 | elg | so here's what I'd do |
| 00:01.59 | elg | pulls out the calculator |
| 00:02.07 | elg | aka units |
| 00:02.16 | nick125_eee | Put the bread maker back into the box? :P |
| 00:02.32 | elg | you have a skale? |
| 00:02.34 | elg | scale even |
| 00:02.41 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 00:02.46 | nick125_eee | Hmm...should I buy TAKEphONE? It's on sale for $4.95 |
| 00:02.49 | Supaplex | not one sensitive enough for measuring for cooking |
| 00:03.19 | elg | ok, 2 3/4 cup ww flour |
| 00:03.21 | Supaplex | nick125_eee: w/o the machine, I'd have to buy bread. only a toaster oven, microwave oven, and induction cooktop here |
| 00:03.27 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo_ (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 00:03.34 | elg | 1/4 tsp yeast |
| 00:03.51 | elg | 1 1/2 tsp salt |
| 00:04.57 | elg | 2 cups water |
| 00:05.07 | elg | 2 tbsp honey |
| 00:05.17 | elg | 2 tbsp oil or butter |
| 00:05.42 | elg | mix the wet stuff together, mix the dry stuff together, mix it all together and tell your bread machine to do its thing 12-24 hours later |
| 00:06.42 | nick125_eee | Hmm....I swapped the SATA port and now the drive isn't giving me any errors....the drive that's on the old port isn't giving me errors either |
| 00:06.52 | elg | and then tell me how it comes out |
| 00:07.12 | tensai | Supaplex: bread machine didn't come with a recipe book? |
| 00:07.28 | tensai | I can dig mine out for you, upload some scans |
| 00:07.30 | Supaplex | I bought it for $1 at savers on a monday - and no |
| 00:07.42 | elg | heh |
| 00:07.47 | Supaplex | cool, with ocr? :) |
| 00:07.47 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo_ (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 00:07.54 | tensai | fwiw, I've made recipes from my bread machine book without the machine and they worked out fine |
| 00:07.55 | Supaplex | s/:)/;)/ |
| 00:08.05 | tensai | so I don't think there's much needs to be changed for use in a bread machine |
| 00:08.22 | elg | Supaplex: that recipe would work great without a bread machine, of course |
| 00:08.49 | elg | oh wait, I think I miscalculated |
| 00:10.59 | tensai | Supaplex: I tried ocr on something the other day and it failed miserably |
| 00:11.05 | elg | yeah, make that 1 1/4 cup water |
| 00:11.21 | elg | Supaplex: got that or should I start oveR? |
| 00:11.56 | Supaplex | I got it |
| 00:12.04 | Supaplex | local wiki ftw \o/ |
| 00:12.39 | Supaplex | I thought 2 cups was a lot to begin with. |
| 00:12.45 | elg | tip: measure the oil first, then the honey |
| 00:12.48 | elg | the honey'll slide right out |
| 00:12.55 | Supaplex | schweet |
| 00:13.05 | nick125_eee | (literally) |
| 00:13.25 | Supaplex | speaking of honey, it's about time to refill my 1lb jar (from the 5lb container) |
| 00:13.30 | elg | yeah, you get me converting from weight to volume and bad things can happen :) |
| 00:14.04 | Supaplex | have some friends that suddenly inherited 80lb of honey. :) |
| 00:14.22 | Supaplex | eg, from a year or two back. |
| 00:15.32 | elg | it's been awhile since I tried lyx |
| 00:15.38 | goozbach | 80lb of honey?! |
| 00:15.38 | elg | let's give it a spin |
| 00:15.45 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 00:15.49 | goozbach | that's a lot of sticky bee puke |
| 00:16.26 | Supaplex | it could well be 100lb. I know it was 50-100lb |
| 00:16.38 | tensai | Supaplex: http://www.zmonkey.org/~tensai/breadmachine/ |
| 00:16.41 | brac | [Index of /~tensai/breadmachine] |
| 00:17.20 | Supaplex | thanks =) |
| 00:17.39 | nick125_eee | http://xkcd.com/413/ |
| 00:17.40 | brac | [xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe] |
| 00:18.35 | elg | Supaplex: if the one I gave you works ok, come back for more and I'll give you variations that may be even awesomer |
| 00:18.45 | Supaplex | cool^2 |
| 00:18.46 | elg | if it flops, bread machine might not be compatible with my method |
| 00:19.00 | Supaplex | start with kiss, then move out |
| 00:20.42 | Supaplex | nick125_eee: let us know where your youtube of your new pet is asap, okay? :D |
| 00:25.22 | nick125_eee | is spending more time finding creative ways to be lazy than actually doing the stuff. |
| 00:29.57 | Supaplex | heads off for some errands |
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| 01:35.36 | Heartsbane | herlo: FINE |
| 01:45.19 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 01:48.09 | Sargun | ... |
| 01:48.45 | Sargun | rams ibot up against a wall and beats the bits out of it until it can't even hold a word. |
| 01:54.36 | keldwud | hey can I embed flickr images? |
| 01:54.41 | keldwud | in wordpress? |
| 01:54.45 | keldwud | anybody know? |
| 01:57.56 | sontek | ofcourse |
| 01:58.51 | *** join/#utah nick125_eee (n=nick@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 02:00.14 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (i=UNKNOWN@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 02:01.32 | kemotaha | anybody know a way to cause grub to go directly to a shell on boot rather than loading stage 1.5? |
| 02:02.57 | nick125_eee | Anyone know what happens if a drive dies in a RAID5? |
| 02:03.15 | kemotaha | the raid gets degraded |
| 02:03.15 | sontek | nick125_eee: nothing, you just replae the drive =) |
| 02:03.45 | nick125_eee | sontek: So my data would be safe if this drive in my RAID died? |
| 02:04.02 | sontek | nick125_eee: yeah |
| 02:04.07 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=Owner@75.145.58.209) |
| 02:04.07 | Sargun | sontek, and rebuild the array |
| 02:04.11 | sontek | Sargun: that too |
| 02:04.16 | sontek | nick125_eee: but your data is safe |
| 02:04.16 | Sargun | nick125_eee, Isn't that kind of the point of RAID5... |
| 02:04.24 | nick125_eee | I had to make sure :p |
| 02:04.33 | Sargun | sontek, I've seen systems at work where people have swapped the drives |
| 02:04.57 | bonez44 | what could create the situation, where one can browse a web page, when local, on the same LAN, yet, one can NOT browse that same site, when remote, i.e,. attempting to log on to it remotely? |
| 02:05.24 | nick125_eee | bonez44: firewall? |
| 02:05.28 | bonez44 | I run my page , www.fyrenice.com on my office server...as well I run several mailman lists on that same server... |
| 02:05.38 | sontek | Sargun: my raid controller knows how to rebuild the array in the backward, but we aren't hotswap |
| 02:05.40 | kemotaha | host allow definitions |
| 02:05.51 | sontek | s/backward/background/ |
| 02:05.52 | Sargun | bonez44, host deny definitions |
| 02:05.52 | bonez44 | ok.. I can access the office router..where might I look for a firewall that could prevent this page from being accessed? |
| 02:06.07 | bonez44 | it's a linksys wrtp54g router.... |
| 02:06.11 | Sargun | ah |
| 02:06.16 | bonez44 | any specific sections to check? |
| 02:06.38 | bonez44 | I just brought up the web interface... |
| 02:07.30 | bonez44 | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:13.13 | bonez44 | hello |
| 02:14.21 | bonez44 | nick125_eee: any OTHER ideas on this? i.e., what settings I might look to, .. I don't see anything about Host Deny Definitions in my router configuration screens |
| 02:17.36 | bonez44 | test, check...test check..1 2 3, one two three....is this thing on? |
| 02:18.27 | nick125_eee | bonez44: And you're sure that port forwarding is setup correctly? |
| 02:20.37 | Tene | reads scrollback |
| 02:21.21 | Tene | doesn't quite understand bonez' situation. |
| 02:22.11 | bonez44 | nick125_eee: not sure at all at this point...as I mentioned..I have port 80 forwarded to the server where mailman and my site reside.... |
| 02:22.20 | bonez44 | isn't it port 80 that needs forwarding there? |
| 02:22.29 | bonez44 | or are other ports required as well? |
| 02:22.42 | nick125_eee | TCP/80 is all you need for web. |
| 02:22.45 | Tene | bonez44: so... what happens when you try to access it? |
| 02:23.16 | bonez44 | ok, if I connect to a machine at my office, i.e., on m LAN... I can enter fyrenice.com and it brings up my page, but if I enter that same page here, at home where I am now..I get nothing, no error, just no loading.. |
| 02:24.08 | bonez44 | similarly, if I attempt to open Mailman's admin pages, from here at home I can not access them, but if I connect to another machine, not the server machine, at my office, i.e., local to that LAN, I can load mailman as well as my page at fyrenice.com |
| 02:24.21 | Tene | but what *does* happen? |
| 02:24.30 | bonez44 | I can access the router's configuration page remotely as well |
| 02:24.34 | nick125_eee | I'm trying to load it here and it's stuck trying to connect |
| 02:24.42 | Tene | like, you type in the url, hit enter... what happens next? |
| 02:24.48 | bonez44 | what happens in NOTHING..it just sits there, trying to load...displaying nothing |
| 02:24.49 | nick125_eee | bonez44: Are you sure you port forwarded port 80 to the server, not the router? |
| 02:25.13 | nick125_eee | also, are you on a static IP? |
| 02:26.42 | bonez44 | on the router, I have the following entered.. : http, start 80, end 80, protocol TCP, ip.of.server.machine enabled checked.. |
| 02:26.51 | bonez44 | yes, I have a static IP address |
| 02:27.14 | bonez44 | I have my ssh to my LAN on the same machine and I can connect to it, with port 22 forwarded JUST FINE... |
| 02:27.27 | nick125_eee | Forwarded in the same manner? |
| 02:27.55 | bonez44 | yes.....and the machine, the server..has it's internal IP statically assigned..not dymanic |
| 02:28.02 | bonez44 | er...dynamic..it's a manic dynamic...hehe. |
| 02:28.14 | bonez44 | forwarded yes, in the same manner |
| 02:28.19 | nick125_eee | hmm. |
| 02:29.12 | nick125_eee | You could try DMZ'ing the server. |
| 02:30.13 | Tene | hmm |
| 02:31.40 | bonez44 | about a week ago, a tech guy at Vonage... which has my router locked..... had me reset the router to factory settings...since then, web access from remote hasn't worked.... |
| 02:31.52 | *** part/#utah linuxalien (i=UNKNOWN@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 02:31.55 | bonez44 | all else works except this... |
| 02:32.32 | nick125_eee | bonez44: Note for next time: backup your settings |
| 02:32.46 | bonez44 | ok...I will back them up... |
| 02:33.11 | nick125_eee | Like I said, try DMZing the server...just to see if that'll work |
| 02:34.45 | bonez44 | ok, I put the DMZ enabled on for this server machine... |
| 02:35.01 | bonez44 | does this mean now, that I am subject to all sorts of hack attacks? on this one machine? |
| 02:35.45 | nick125_eee | bonez44: technically, yes. You can put a small firewall on the server to protect it, if you want. |
| 02:35.56 | bonez44 | now, when I attempt to load fyrenice.com, I get The connection had timed out. the server at fyrenice.com is taking too long to respond. ... |
| 02:36.16 | bonez44 | hmmm ok...a la iptables, et al? |
| 02:36.31 | nick125_eee | hmm...I don't have nmap on here, dang it |
| 02:37.26 | nick125_eee | hmmm. |
| 02:37.52 | nick125_eee | Is there a way to dump the configuration for your router into XML or something? |
| 02:38.42 | bonez44 | not sure |
| 02:39.07 | nick125_eee | I know X-WRT has a way (I believe), not sure on the stock fw. |
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| 02:40.22 | bonez44 | ok, I ran backup... and it creates "config.bin" |
| 02:40.33 | nick125_eee | That's useful (sarcasm) |
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| 02:42.34 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 02:43.56 | bonez44 | elg: got any idea on this? I can browse this site 'fyrenice.com' when I am attempting to load,locally, but if I attempt to load it remotely, i.e., from anywhere else not in my office, it wont' load...... |
| 02:44.20 | bonez44 | trying to figure out why it doesn't load..why from remote location, I can't browse my site |
| 02:46.39 | bonez44 | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:47.05 | nick125_eee | hmm...check the SMC gateway device, make sure it isn't doing any firewalling |
| 02:47.25 | bonez44 | the SMC gateway device is set to pass all traffic through to the router..... |
| 02:54.22 | nick125_eee | hmm |
| 02:55.13 | bonez44 | I called comcast, and logged on to the smc device..it just passes EVERYTHING through to my router.... |
| 02:55.19 | bonez44 | so the issues MUST be at the router... |
| 02:55.34 | Tene | ... I've heard about comcast doing that. |
| 02:55.43 | Tene | I'm not sure if I've seen it myself before or not, though. |
| 02:56.59 | bonez44 | well, isn't that what such a gateway is supposed to do? let me manage everything at my router? |
| 02:57.12 | nick125_eee | not necessarly.. |
| 02:57.24 | bonez44 | oh., do tell then |
| 02:57.43 | nick125_eee | A gateway is supposed to do the routing/etc. |
| 02:58.06 | nick125_eee | (Least Comcast/other ISP's wacked definition of gateways...) |
| 03:01.34 | bonez44 | but if I have a gateway.. and a router behind it....which should do the routing? |
| 03:01.44 | bonez44 | can't have both of them, act as routers.right? |
| 03:02.04 | nick125_eee | Well....you *could*, but you'd want the router doing the routing. |
| 03:04.08 | bonez44 | but wait, you just said "A gateway is supposed to do the routing/etc." |
| 03:05.02 | nick125_eee | Least by default |
| 03:06.59 | bonez44 | ok |
| 03:10.19 | bonez44 | nick, have you seen 'virtualbox'? I just came across a youtube video about installing it on linux...to run xp if needed |
| 03:10.40 | Tene | I'm pretty sure that Zelut uses it. |
| 03:11.18 | Zelut | bonez44: I am a fan, yes. You might be interested in this post... /me digs up the URL. |
| 03:11.27 | *** join/#utah aioven (n=aioven@c-98-202-37-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:11.29 | sontek | ~dig Zelut |
| 03:11.44 | sontek | ~digg Zelut |
| 03:11.47 | sontek | awww |
| 03:11.55 | Zelut | http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/02/01/how-to-do-seamless-window-integration-with-ubuntu-virtualbox/ |
| 03:12.02 | bonez44 | Zelut: is it fairly speedy? I tried loading win4lin on linux, and then installed xp and it was a dog... |
| 03:12.14 | sontek | ibot: digg $zelut is <action> ddos's $zelut's blog |
| 03:12.15 | ibot | sontek: okay |
| 03:12.17 | sontek | ~digg Zelut |
| 03:12.18 | ibot | ACTION ddos's Zelut's blog |
| 03:12.44 | Zelut | ..and my virtualization category has a few more virtualbox related posts - http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/category/virtualization/ |
| 03:15.11 | Zelut | bonez44: its noticably faster than vmware on my C2D machine. That seamless mode (link) feels completely real-time. |
| 03:15.33 | bonez44 | Zelut: I have a couple apps, which are required for my work...only work under windows...if virtualbox is fairly fast it would allow me to run linux on all my machines.... |
| 03:15.42 | bonez44 | cool, I'll give it a try, perhaps tonight |
| 03:15.52 | bonez44 | thanks... |
| 03:16.08 | Zelut | sure. hope the links help. |
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| 03:16.12 | brac | not properly grounded, please bury computer |
| 03:16.27 | lakshmi | ~onjoin lakshmi hey |
| 03:16.27 | ibot | lakshmi: ok |
| 03:16.38 | bonez44 | ok... |
| 03:20.09 | *** part/#utah bonez44 (n=Owner@75.145.58.209) |
| 03:26.35 | *** join/#utah nick125_1ee (n=nick@102.sub-75-209-195.myvzw.com) |
| 03:28.22 | nick125_eee | http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/070306.html |
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| 03:34.41 | Supaplex | -excuse |
| 03:34.42 | brac | Not enough interrupts |
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| 03:35.36 | Supaplex | is for |
| 03:35.41 | Supaplex | lakshmi! |
| 03:37.26 | lakshmi | i know cause everyone likes saying hi for me |
| 03:37.28 | lakshmi | er to me |
| 03:37.40 | Supaplex | -say lakshmi: hi |
| 03:37.41 | brac | insufficient "say" auth (have 10, need 70) |
| 03:37.55 | Supaplex | brac is stuck up ;) |
| 03:38.04 | lakshmi | brac is not as cool as ibot |
| 03:43.20 | lakshmi | i hate kids |
| 03:44.06 | Supaplex | you're just an overgrown kid |
| 03:44.15 | lakshmi | actually i take that back |
| 03:44.19 | lakshmi | i hate kids's paretns |
| 03:44.23 | lakshmi | and dealing with parents |
| 03:44.39 | lakshmi | cause they think their kid is the best! |
| 03:44.43 | lakshmi | but they arent! |
| 03:44.54 | nick125_eee | lakshmi: I bet you'll think your kid is absolutely the best. |
| 03:45.16 | lakshmi | nick125_eee well a) my kid will be the best its mine :P |
| 03:45.25 | lakshmi | but if it sucks id tell the teacher to stick it in the back |
| 03:45.26 | lakshmi | and hide it |
| 03:45.37 | lakshmi | i have two parents that want their kid in the front |
| 03:45.38 | kemotaha | my kid is only the best because I tell them to beat all the other kids up ;-) |
| 03:45.50 | lakshmi | their kids are huge and uncoordinated |
| 03:49.00 | lakshmi | i dont want them in the front |
| 03:49.17 | lakshmi | kemotaha that would work, then id have 1 realyl good kid |
| 03:49.25 | lakshmi | so much better than having 7 annoying ones |
| 03:51.50 | nick125_eee | Anyone here use TAKEphONE? |
| 03:52.13 | nick125_eee | treocentral has it on sale for $5 and I'm wondering if I should get it or not |
| 03:53.08 | lakshmi | do it |
| 03:56.18 | findlay | lakshmi: why are you dealing with huge and uncoordinated kids in the back and the front? |
| 03:56.19 | *** join/#utah unum_ (n=unum@70.89.247.221) |
| 03:56.43 | lakshmi | findlay teach dance and you'll find out? |
| 03:57.27 | findlay | why are you dancing, and why are you teaching it? |
| 03:58.30 | lakshmi | im dancing cause its fun |
| 03:59.04 | lakshmi | im teaching it cause its fun if all the kids didnt have stupid parents |
| 03:59.12 | lakshmi | or weird issues |
| 03:59.13 | findlay | I played through the first and second suites for unaccompanied cello on my viola tonight |
| 03:59.24 | findlay | and some movements from the other suites |
| 03:59.52 | findlay | the problem is I've been treating them my whole life like the sonatas and partitas for violin senza basso |
| 04:00.34 | findlay | but they're not, they are suites of dance movements. I'm no dancer, so when I realized this I was totally at a loss as to how to interperet them |
| 04:00.45 | findlay | lakshmi: so, what should I do? |
| 04:01.40 | lakshmi | play them upbeat and happy |
| 04:01.46 | lakshmi | so ppl can dance |
| 04:01.49 | lakshmi | duur |
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| 04:02.50 | findlay | lakshmi: they're not all supposed to be happy |
| 04:03.03 | lakshmi | play em happy anyways! |
| 04:03.23 | findlay | I can't believe that dancing is always about being happy |
| 04:03.44 | lakshmi | its not |
| 04:03.52 | lakshmi | i mean interpretational dance |
| 04:03.56 | lakshmi | play it with a beat |
| 04:04.41 | findlay | you don't know how exceedingly difficult it is to play the unaccompanied suites with a beat |
| 04:04.55 | findlay | get the yo yo ma recording and you will understand |
| 04:05.17 | findlay | google 'inspired by bach' on youtube and see for yourself |
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| 04:15.43 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 04:15.45 | ibot | drops a baby grand on Zelut |
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| 04:21.27 | *** join/#utah nick125_1ee (n=nick@17.sub-75-208-98.myvzw.com) |
| 04:25.03 | lakshmi | what? |
| 04:33.03 | levi | Good evening. |
| 04:42.34 | levi | Where'd everyone go? |
| 04:43.22 | sontek | everyone is lazy |
| 04:43.32 | sontek | they go to bed way before the sun comes up |
| 05:16.49 | *** join/#utah nick125_eee (n=nick@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 05:18.11 | sontek | http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080424-qwest-finally-gets-in-the-fiber-game-with.html |
| 05:18.59 | nick125_eee | Too bad they don't allow third-party ISPs on FTTN... |
| 05:19.35 | sontek | yeah :( |
| 05:21.11 | nick125_eee | Otherwise, I'd be on that 12mbit FTTN like that. |
| 05:21.20 | nick125_eee | (mainly for the larger upload) |
| 05:23.35 | nick125_eee | 12mbit down wouldn't hurt my feelings, though. |
| 05:24.49 | Supaplex | more b/w for less? sign me up |
| 05:26.29 | nick125_eee | Anyone here have contacts at Qwest who might know if/when they're going to allow third-party ISPs on FTTN? |
| 05:27.58 | nick125_eee | I have this feeling that Qwest is worried that third-party ISPs might not have enough bandwidth to handle the higher speeds of FTTN |
| 05:53.13 | tensai | nick125_eee: I have a feeling that Qwest thinks they can actually provide better service than third party ISPs. they're sorely mistaken. |
| 05:53.35 | nick125_eee | tensai: That's sort of what I was implying, as well. |
| 05:53.42 | nick125_eee | I' |
| 05:53.58 | nick125_eee | m sorry, but...trying to get to someone in Qwest with a brain is hard enough without them being my ISP. |
| 05:54.39 | nick125_eee | Then having to pay them $29.95 for a /28 is ridiculous. |
| 05:55.04 | nick125_eee | And the fact that they only "support" one domain name per block is stupid. |
| 05:56.17 | *** join/#utah findlay (n=justin@72.8.99.158) |
| 05:57.45 | findlay | -chat ~onjoin findlay |
| 05:57.45 | brac | ~onjoin findlay -chat about ~say -chat ~onjoin findlay |
| 05:57.45 | ibot | ok, brac |
| 06:05.06 | findlay | ~yesterday Supaplex |
| 06:05.51 | Supaplex | blah |
| 06:06.07 | Supaplex | lol nice onjoin there |
| 06:23.07 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@72.8.114.252) |
| 06:53.15 | sontek | I don't know if all you guys have been waiting for e17 as long as I have but heres some good news on it: http://osnews.com/story/19679/A-Few-Questions-to-Enlightenments-Rasterman |
| 06:53.18 | brac | [A Few Questions to Enlightenment's Rasterman] |
| 06:55.23 | sontek | I've basically became a gnome whore in the last few years, so dunno if I'll ever get back to using it, but I'd love to see it "released" |
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| 07:27.50 | lakshmi | wheres fozzmoo? |
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| 13:18.06 | sinuhe | yawns. Looks around and figures it's still siesta time. |
| 13:21.01 | gshipley_ | waves hand to show he is awake |
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| 13:22.36 | sinuhe | yawns again, lazily waves to gshipley_ |
| 13:23.13 | findlay | sure, three timezones away, :) |
| 13:23.28 | gshipley_ | yah, its 9:20 here |
| 13:27.10 | sinuhe | Where is "here"? |
| 13:27.19 | gshipley | Raleigh, NC |
| 13:40.03 | ^Migs^ | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/funny-pictures-cat-keyboard-microsoft-assistant1.jpg |
| 13:40.17 | ^Migs^ | I love this one |
| 13:56.00 | elg | -excuse |
| 13:56.00 | brac | nesting roaches shorted out the ether cable |
| 13:57.10 | elg | so lyx is cooler than when I last tried it |
| 14:08.45 | tensai | elg, you chump. get back here. |
| 14:15.23 | Tene | elg: howso? |
| 14:15.40 | Tene | ... oh, he's gone. |
| 14:20.06 | tensai | Tene: when he gets back, I'll hold him down and you berate him with questions |
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| 14:27.58 | tensai | elg: I changed out my 4-way coax splitter for a 2-way and my signal strength went from 71% to 78% |
| 14:28.44 | tensai | I also realized there's a 2-way splitter outside that's unnecessary. I'll replace it with a coupler and steal back my 3dbm |
| 14:28.44 | elg | cool |
| 14:28.48 | elg | still, i get a solid picture at 60% and even lower |
| 14:28.59 | elg | maybe the channels you're having trouble with are more marginal? |
| 14:29.10 | tensai | I watched a bunch yesterday and got a really good picture on everything |
| 14:29.33 | elg | still feeding one tuner direct? |
| 14:29.43 | elg | maybe that splitter outside can move inside and give you both tuners |
| 14:29.52 | tensai | the rabbit ears are only getting 50-ish%. once I put that coupler in, I'll try putting a splitter for the hdhr in again |
| 14:30.00 | tensai | elg: my thoughts exactly :) |
| 14:31.46 | tensai | I'm getting so close to having this myth box done. it's kind of exciting. |
| 14:31.58 | tristanbob | does hardy have open office 3? |
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| 14:44.19 | Zelut | tristanbob: no |
| 14:44.28 | tristanbob | 2.4? |
| 14:45.48 | elg | i looks like OOo 2.4 is the latest to me |
| 14:46.13 | Zelut | enjoys answering the same question twice |
| 14:46.36 | elg | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=725700 |
| 14:46.54 | elg | you saying OOo 2.4 == OOo 3? |
| 14:47.08 | elg | did they offshore their marketing to sun? |
| 14:47.16 | elg | oh that's right, sun owns them don't they |
| 14:47.19 | mecworks | Does this scare anyone else? Apply patches to running kernel: http://web.mit.edu/ksplice/ |
| 14:47.22 | brac | [Ksplice: Rebootless Linux kernel security updates] |
| 14:47.37 | elg | why should it scare? |
| 14:49.39 | mecworks | changing code paths in a running kernel seems like a recipe for disaster. Maybe I'm just paranoid. Loading a kernel module is similar but it still scares me for some reason |
| 14:54.35 | elg | well nobody makes you :) |
| 14:55.05 | nick125_eee | mecworks: I'd be scared because it supposely violates MS patents. |
| 14:55.09 | elg | hot code swapping doesn't have to be a recipe for disaster, though I can see it being a difficult proposition in a monolithic kernel. but that didn't stop them from making modules |
| 14:55.14 | elg | haha |
| 14:55.18 | elg | see erlang |
| 14:55.39 | elg | and five-nines reliability, where hot code swapping is a common occurence |
| 14:56.00 | mecworks | nick125_eee: that's interesting. Didn't know that |
| 14:56.42 | elg | which is funny because it'll be a cold day in hell before you can hot swap a windows kernel |
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| 15:11.00 | goozbach | heaven is hotter than hell |
| 15:11.04 | goozbach | it's been proven |
| 15:11.11 | goozbach | using phyiscs |
| 15:12.08 | goozbach | http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm |
| 15:12.09 | brac | [Heaven is Hotter than Hell] |
| 15:12.47 | sinuhe | heh |
| 15:14.37 | goozbach | love those proofs |
| 15:15.26 | goozbach | there's another one which is about proving hello either exothermic or endothermics |
| 15:20.52 | ^Migs^ | is now known as m-diggity |
| 15:24.11 | nick125_eee | lol |
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| 15:57.31 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:57.31 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:57.33 | goozbach | bah |
| 15:57.40 | goozbach | stupid paste key |
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| 16:12.40 | jsmith | taunts goozbach |
| 16:13.37 | unum | anyone else here a delegate? |
| 16:14.45 | jsmith | delegate for? |
| 16:15.10 | jsmith | got invited to be a delegate to the RNC once... and he wasn't even a registered republican |
| 16:17.11 | unum | I'm not a registered democrat, yet I'm in the county leadership |
| 16:18.24 | tuple | my brother is |
| 16:18.33 | tuple | for the repubs |
| 16:18.39 | tuple | he's a ron paul diehard :) |
| 16:18.56 | tuple | i guess they take just about anyone |
| 16:19.22 | tuple | ~lart emcnabb |
| 16:19.22 | ibot | beats the living hamstercrap out of emcnabb |
| 16:19.40 | tuple | ah good, I needed some for an experiment |
| 16:23.27 | levi | What kind of experiment could you possibly run with 'living hamstercrap'? |
| 16:24.47 | unum | actually the republican are a lot pickier about who they take then the democrats |
| 16:25.08 | unum | the democrats have several republicans running for office this year |
| 16:26.09 | levi | tensai: Have you looked at powered distribution blocks for splitting your signal? |
| 16:26.54 | tensai | levi: I read about them last night. seems like they would fix my problem, although I think I can get by without one. |
| 16:27.32 | levi | tensai: You should be able to find one at home depot, radio shack, etc. |
| 16:27.56 | tensai | the ones I'm seeing online are upwards of $100. is that what I should expect? |
| 16:28.09 | levi | The ones I've seen are closer to $30, IIRC. |
| 16:28.32 | levi | It's basically a signal amp followed by a 3-way splitter or so. |
| 16:28.45 | levi | The ones you saw were probably bigger? |
| 16:30.17 | tensai | yeah, could be. now I found some for considerably less. |
| 16:32.49 | levi | I'd recommend maximizing your signal within your budget, since weather can affect reception. |
| 16:33.06 | tuple | is it "masters thesis" or "master's thesis"? |
| 16:34.05 | levi | Google seems to like the apostrophe. |
| 16:34.58 | levi | And it would be the grammatically correct option, barring an exceptional case. |
| 16:42.17 | elg | i'm not so sure |
| 16:42.24 | elg | i'm not sure an s is correct at all |
| 16:42.39 | elg | You wouldn't say M.Sc.'s Thesis |
| 16:42.47 | elg | nor PhD's dissertation |
| 16:42.59 | elg | or senior's capstone project |
| 16:44.05 | levi | Well, common usage says there's an s. And if there's an s, there should be an apostrophe. |
| 16:45.47 | levi | Essentially, a Master's Degree is a document certifying that you are a Master of a discipline. It is the degree of the Master, i.e. the Master's Degree. |
| 16:46.28 | levi | The degree abbreviations muddy the waters because you're condensing multiple words into one. |
| 16:48.46 | elg | i think the issue is the adjectification of master's |
| 16:49.09 | elg | if you say master's degree thesis, or MSc thesis, the same |
| 16:49.33 | elg | if you drop "degree" you're nounifying the possessive |
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| 16:50.09 | levi | No, it still works. Master's Thesis is the thesis you wrote to prove you are a Master. |
| 16:50.47 | elg | so Doctor's Dissertation? |
| 16:51.18 | levi | That would work, but you typically use Doctoral instead of Doctor's. |
| 16:51.22 | jsmith | elg: What about Masters' Thesis ;-p |
| 16:51.35 | jsmith | is only kidding |
| 16:52.37 | levi | http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/anma?view=uk |
| 16:53.12 | levi | That suggests that 'master's degree' is correct, since the answerer doesn't correct it. |
| 16:56.13 | elg | Further, if we just want an authoritative source then the AP Style book tells us "academic degrees -- Put an apostrophe in bachelor's degree and master's degree. This is to show possession. The degree belongs to the bachelor or master (that's you). Even when shortened to bachelor's and master's (no "degree" afterward), you keep the apostrophe." |
| 16:56.17 | elg | from http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071023141101AA2OYc5 |
| 16:56.23 | elg | so there you have it, at least according to AP style |
| 16:56.46 | levi | Yeah, that's the reasoning I was following. |
| 16:57.06 | levi | It could vary based on the style guide you're following, though. |
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| 16:57.43 | elg | yup |
| 16:57.49 | elg | one is good enough for now |
| 16:58.02 | elg | i never thought of it as a possessive though |
| 16:58.21 | Tene | was it plural? |
| 16:58.55 | elg | i always figured it was short for master of science degree |
| 16:59.01 | elg | and who knows how the s crept in |
| 16:59.44 | elg | because possession is uaully already implied. "his master's degree" is doing the possessive thing twice |
| 16:59.45 | elg | but hey |
| 16:59.49 | elg | english |
| 17:02.40 | findlay | ~date |
| 17:02.40 | ibot | It is now 2008.04.25 17:02:40 GMT |
| 17:04.14 | levi | I tend to think of it in a more abstract sense, actually. "master's degree" is the name of the degree of some master, not necessarily a specific one. Because, as a whole, it is a noun, it can be posessed by another noun. |
| 17:05.21 | elg | what's worse than people with hyphenated last names? people who can't decide whether they have hyphenated last names |
| 17:05.41 | elg | i can't tell if this person prefers his name to be Perfecto Herrera or Perfecto Herrera-Boyer |
| 17:06.27 | levi | Oh, and I came up with another counterargument to your claim that saving a broadcast HD stream to disk is not 'really recording' in some sense. |
| 17:06.56 | Tene | wait, who said that saving a stream to disk isn't recording? |
| 17:07.06 | levi | elg did. |
| 17:07.10 | Tene | Huh. |
| 17:07.21 | Tene | ~cluebat elg |
| 17:07.22 | ibot | ACTION pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps elg. |
| 17:07.23 | levi | Consider the earliest audio recordings on wax cylinders. |
| 17:07.38 | elg | i said that it was ambiguous to deserve clarification, that's all |
| 17:07.47 | elg | what about them? |
| 17:07.58 | levi | All it's doing is transcribing waves in the air to waves on the cylinder. |
| 17:08.00 | elg | i never argued that saving bits to disk isn't recording the bits |
| 17:08.39 | elg | just like when you save a file, you've recorded that file |
| 17:09.05 | levi | I think that's the purest sense of 'recording' there is, and recording from an HDHomeRun corresponds almost exactly to that, though in the digital realm rather than analog. |
| 17:09.32 | elg | sense 2 |
| 17:09.33 | elg | 2 convert (sound or a broadcast) into permanent form for later reproduction |
| 17:09.44 | levi | Well, I have no issue at all with what you *meant*, only with what you *said*. |
| 17:09.48 | elg | sense 1 |
| 17:09.48 | elg | 1 set down in writing or some other permanent form for later reference, |
| 17:09.53 | elg | recording bits is sense 1 |
| 17:10.00 | elg | recording sound is sense 2 |
| 17:10.04 | elg | saving a stream is sense 1 |
| 17:10.13 | elg | if there is confusion about which sense, it deserves clarification |
| 17:10.40 | elg | when I said isn't really recording, I was referring to isn't really recording in sense 2 |
| 17:10.45 | levi | Saving a TV broadcast via HDHomeRun is *both* senses. |
| 17:10.53 | elg | no |
| 17:10.57 | levi | Yes it is! |
| 17:10.58 | Tene | why not? |
| 17:11.36 | elg | what conversion took place? are you going to argue that the conversion from an analog electronic signal using a protocol we call ethernet is "convert (sound or broadcast) into permanent form" ? |
| 17:11.56 | elg | it's a DIGITAL signal |
| 17:12.08 | elg | that's the whole point of digital tv. already encoded |
| 17:12.25 | levi | Yes, it's a conversion of a transient electronic signal into a permenant electronic signal. |
| 17:12.35 | levi | That's a *significant* conversion. |
| 17:12.39 | elg | sure, the encoded signal gets passed around in various ways, but it is the same digital signal from beginning to end |
| 17:12.48 | elg | i disagree |
| 17:13.01 | elg | a digital signal is a digital signal. |
| 17:13.22 | elg | one minute it's being streamed, the next it's sitting on the hard drive. the next it's on a usb drive and walking down the street |
| 17:13.26 | levi | The waveform that goes into the wax cylinder recording is exactly the same one that's recorded on the cylinder, barring transcription errors. |
| 17:13.38 | levi | An analog signal is an analog signal! |
| 17:14.18 | levi | Are you saying that wax cylinder recordings don't fall under sense 2? |
| 17:14.18 | elg | the difference is in the continuous nature of analog |
| 17:14.25 | levi | That makes no difference at all. |
| 17:14.31 | levi | The fact is they're both signals. |
| 17:14.32 | elg | you can't - CAN NOT - make a perfect reproduction of any analog signal |
| 17:14.39 | elg | absolutely impossible |
| 17:14.44 | levi | Perfection is not the issue. |
| 17:14.55 | elg | yes it is |
| 17:15.10 | levi | Recording does not have any implication, positive or negative, of perfection. |
| 17:15.10 | elg | a digital signal is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, in 3 weeks, in 5 years. |
| 17:15.25 | levi | We're not talking about signal integrity, we're talking about recording. |
| 17:15.36 | elg | sense 2 of recording according to the oxford dictionary implies conversion |
| 17:16.02 | elg | if you consider copying a file over the network a conversion, then that's your prerogitive |
| 17:16.03 | levi | There's still conversion going on, from transient to permanent. |
| 17:16.04 | elg | I say it isn't |
| 17:16.31 | elg | OTA broadcast is just a simple, uniderctional, multicast, form of copying a file over a network |
| 17:16.36 | elg | you grab the piece of the file you want |
| 17:16.42 | elg | you get errors, oh well |
| 17:16.43 | levi | Transforming a waveform in a wire to a magnetic pattern on a disk is a pretty significant conversion! |
| 17:16.56 | elg | sure. our computers do it all the time |
| 17:16.59 | elg | RAM to disk |
| 17:17.01 | elg | ethernet |
| 17:17.16 | elg | nobody goes around talking about recording files from the internet |
| 17:17.23 | elg | let me go record that tarball |
| 17:17.25 | levi | Indeed. And when the target of that conversion is permanent storage, 'recording' in sense 2 has taken place. |
| 17:17.40 | levi | Just because we don't commonly use the term for that doesn't mean it's incorrect. |
| 17:17.54 | elg | recording in sense 1 has taken place |
| 17:18.02 | levi | In sense 2 as well! |
| 17:18.07 | elg | I disagree |
| 17:18.27 | levi | Well, you're wrong, but I can see we're not going to get anywhere further with this. :) |
| 17:18.44 | elg | I don't see what the big deal is |
| 17:18.50 | levi | There is no big deal. |
| 17:19.38 | elg | sense 2 is a different sense exactly because transcription and conversion are different |
| 17:19.50 | elg | when you speak and a court recorder types, that is not sense 2 |
| 17:20.03 | elg | even though the keys she presses and the ink on the page certainly constitute a conversion |
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| 17:21.26 | levi | Is recording analog TV via a tuner card sense 2? |
| 17:21.34 | elg | yes |
| 17:21.50 | elg | as is recording analog tv to vhs |
| 17:22.18 | levi | Your court recorder analogy makes no sense to me then in respect to your argument. |
| 17:22.29 | elg | and your argument makes no sense to me |
| 17:22.39 | levi | Well, let me explain. |
| 17:22.40 | elg | you say there's a signal and it gets written down |
| 17:22.48 | elg | and you call it recording. i say fine, that's recording sense 1 |
| 17:23.12 | elg | but you insist it's recording in the tape recorder sense |
| 17:23.25 | levi | I'm saying it's converted to permanent form so it can be played back later. |
| 17:23.41 | levi | Which seems to fit sense 2 to me. |
| 17:23.58 | elg | what's wrong with sense 1? |
| 17:24.07 | levi | I thought you were making a distinction based on perfection or lack thereof, but the court reporter analogy doesn't fit that. |
| 17:24.10 | elg | the court recorder records the words you say so they can be spoken later |
| 17:24.21 | levi | Nothing's wrong with sense 1, it *also* fits that. |
| 17:24.45 | elg | so if every use of the word record fits both senses, what's the point? |
| 17:24.55 | elg | why have two senses? |
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| 17:26.20 | levi | The court transcription is only sense 1, since the intent is not to replay the sound. |
| 17:26.30 | elg | what if it's read back? |
| 17:27.04 | elg | lossy compression, to be sure, but you get sound with the same meaning |
| 17:27.10 | levi | That's not reproducing the original sound, it's a new performance of a similar nature. |
| 17:27.20 | levi | It's like writing down music and having someone else perform it. |
| 17:27.41 | levi | No one argues that writing down music is recording in sense 2. |
| 17:28.22 | elg | so if it's imperfect it's sense 1 |
| 17:28.24 | elg | ? |
| 17:28.36 | elg | so the original mpeg2 encoding was sense 1? |
| 17:28.44 | levi | No, the difference is whether the intent is to make the original audio reproducible or not. |
| 17:28.47 | elg | and the saving to disk is sense 2? |
| 17:29.02 | levi | I should say performance instead of audio. |
| 17:29.18 | levi | The distinction is not perfection at all, as I said earlier. |
| 17:30.00 | elg | and i say the distinction is not reproduction at all |
| 17:30.34 | elg | if you record the words because the bit of the performance you care about was what was said, not the audio waves |
| 17:31.09 | elg | doens't make it sense 2 |
| 17:31.17 | levi | Sense 2 explicitly says 'reproduction' in it! |
| 17:31.34 | levi | If you're not trying to reproduce the performance, then it's not sense 2. |
| 17:32.34 | levi | If you're writing a diary or meeting minutes, it's sense 1. If you're capturing a performance for playback later, it's sense 2. |
| 17:32.54 | elg | and what if you're saving a digital file for reading from disk later? |
| 17:33.12 | levi | The definitions have nothing to do with bits, perfection, or anything on that level. It's the 'meanings' of what's being written that cause the distinction between the senses. |
| 17:33.20 | elg | that's what I'm arguing |
| 17:33.25 | elg | and you dance around it with bits |
| 17:33.53 | elg | the signal has been recorded, at the studio. it is then transferred/saved/recorded sense 1 to your hard drive |
| 17:33.54 | levi | I'm not the one making a distinction based on whether there were discrete bits to begin with or not! |
| 17:34.01 | elg | then it is reproduced by mplayer or whatever |
| 17:34.28 | elg | so by your definition of record, every time you scp an mp3, you are recording |
| 17:34.31 | levi | I'm saying if there's data (analog or digital) that represents a performance, saving it with the intent of later playback means you're recording. |
| 17:34.45 | elg | right, so you agree with the scp statement |
| 17:35.00 | levi | Yes, in principle. |
| 17:35.09 | elg | ok, then. you make no sense but that's your right |
| 17:35.19 | elg | you can see why i might think your definition loony |
| 17:35.24 | levi | No, I make perfect sense, you're just posting a degenerate example. |
| 17:35.51 | ^Migs^ | I hate how GoDaddy opens up 10 million windows when you're navigating the control panel |
| 17:35.53 | elg | no, i am equating transfer over radio with transfer over ethernet |
| 17:36.04 | elg | you are distinguishing them |
| 17:36.08 | elg | and that is the core |
| 17:36.13 | levi | No, it's not. |
| 17:36.28 | elg | yes. we both agree that analog to digital is recording |
| 17:36.48 | findlay | heh |
| 17:36.59 | elg | the difference is I call the transfer of digital signal to hard drive, whether by radio or usb drive, a transfer |
| 17:37.02 | elg | you call it a recording |
| 17:37.26 | elg | if i capture packets with tcpdump, i call that a recording too |
| 17:37.27 | elg | sense 1 |
| 17:37.42 | levi | Okay, your friend gives you a DAT tape of an event and you copy it to an analog tape. You call that recording. Your friend gives you a DAT tape and you copy it to another DAT tape. Somehow, that's now *not* recording? |
| 17:37.45 | elg | the act of capturing stuff and storing it. recording |
| 17:38.02 | elg | levi: yes |
| 17:38.06 | elg | not in sense 2 |
| 17:38.09 | elg | it's copying |
| 17:38.17 | elg | recording sense 1, copying a digital stream |
| 17:38.17 | levi | You're the one that sounds crazy now. :) |
| 17:38.32 | levi | Either they're both copying or they're both recording. |
| 17:38.37 | elg | well neither of us sounds crazy to himself |
| 17:38.45 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@72.8.114.252) |
| 17:38.48 | elg | i don't see why that has to be true |
| 17:38.55 | elg | just because there's magnetic tape involved? |
| 17:39.04 | elg | just because there's an antenna and a tv involved? |
| 17:39.30 | levi | I'm arguing that the distinction between the senses doesn't care about bits, conversions, etc. It's a higher-level concept that has to do with what your intent is. |
| 17:40.02 | elg | which is exactly the argument for copying |
| 17:40.06 | levi | (I went against that earlier when I said scp of an audio file is also recording. I take that back.) |
| 17:40.16 | elg | you copy a digital signal, no matter what your intent is |
| 17:40.37 | elg | you can't avoid the scp |
| 17:40.38 | levi | You copy an analog signal, too. Just not perfectly. |
| 17:40.41 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@72.8.114.252) |
| 17:40.47 | levi | elg: You can't scp a stream. |
| 17:40.51 | elg | there is absolutely no difference in copying an mpeg2 file with scp and grabbing it from a radio signal |
| 17:41.18 | elg | sure, and you say you copy a tape |
| 17:41.23 | levi | Right. |
| 17:41.27 | elg | "can I make a copy of your raffi tape?" |
| 17:42.18 | elg | in fact, in further thought, you'd sound pretty silly asking if you can record my raffi tape |
| 17:42.34 | elg | what, you want to play it on this stereo and record it with the other stereo and a mic? |
| 17:43.55 | levi | I agree there's a distinction between analog and digital recordings. I don't believe it's captured in the distinction between the senses of the English word 'recording'. |
| 17:44.30 | elg | i have no problem with the word record being used to refer to saving a digital tv signal to disk. I take issue with being badgered for making a distinction between encoding-recording and saving-recording |
| 17:45.24 | elg | wax phonographs - encoding recording |
| 17:45.33 | levi | Well, there's a perfectly good word you could have used to make the distinction, and you just did. :) |
| 17:45.45 | elg | that's all I ever intended from the very beginning |
| 17:46.03 | levi | I understood that shortly thereafter. |
| 17:47.54 | levi | But you continued to insist that there was some sense of the English word 'record' that didn't fit the saving-recording of TV broadcast. I don't think the dictionary makes that distinction, though it *is* a valid distinction, of course. |
| 17:48.15 | levi | I guess we can reasonably disagree about that, though. |
| 17:49.43 | levi | Anyway, I apologize for dragging this out. |
| 17:50.26 | dmdavis | sorry, just tuned back in. Who won? |
| 17:51.06 | levi | I don't know that anyone did. |
| 17:51.08 | elg | no, i always maintained there is a sense of the word record that fits the saving-recording of tv broadcast meaning |
| 17:51.10 | dmdavis | and if there was no winner, just an amicable "agree to disagree" thing, then you need to fight for it |
| 17:51.27 | elg | "not really recording" was, in retrospect, a misspeak |
| 17:51.42 | elg | it *is* recording, in sense 1 |
| 17:52.23 | levi | See, the disagreement is that you insist that sense 2 doesn't apply simply because it's digital. Sense 1 may also apply because it's digital, but I don't think it removes sense 2. |
| 17:52.37 | elg | and that's where we disagree |
| 17:52.51 | elg | though that's a simplistic characterization of my position |
| 17:52.55 | elg | i'm happy to disagree |
| 17:54.16 | levi | What do you think the dictionary writers would say if you showed them recording and playback via an hdhomerun and asked them if sense 2 applied? |
| 17:54.34 | elg | i'd expect them to scratch their heads, pull an answer out of a hat |
| 17:55.19 | elg | and probably make a note for the next revision |
| 17:55.23 | levi | The technical details don't matter. It's a general English word, not a technical term. You're making it a technical term and adding a new sense to the word. |
| 17:55.33 | findlay | still arguing? |
| 17:55.56 | elg | it was me recognizing the ambiguity of the english language that got us into this mess in the first place |
| 17:56.52 | levi | Yeah, but you then tried to disambiguate the word using a layman's dictionary instead of a technical one. The distinction is purely technical. |
| 17:57.02 | elg | i'm not trying to make record a precise word, nor argue that anyone should stop saying "i recorded sesame street with my hdhr" |
| 17:57.39 | levi | Sesame Street was broadcast. You save it with the intent of replaying it. That's sense 2. |
| 17:57.51 | levi | The analog vs. digital detail is totally immaterial. |
| 17:57.53 | elg | that's all we disagree on. which sense means what |
| 17:58.03 | elg | we both agree the word record applies |
| 17:58.21 | elg | we both agree the need in yonder conversation to distinguish between encoding and saving |
| 17:59.09 | levi | Okay, so, open question to whoever's got an opinion: Does sense 2 apply to digital recording? |
| 17:59.47 | elg | it seems we have a different paradigm about recording and signals, probably skewed on my end due to working with analog and digital audio signals so closely |
| 17:59.55 | elg | and that's ok |
| 18:00.30 | elg | you mean, does sense 2 apply to saving an hdhr stream to disk |
| 18:00.53 | elg | since digital recording could refer to e.g. plugging a mic into the computer and recording |
| 18:01.42 | levi | Right, does sense 2 apply to saving the MPEG2 video stream from an ATSC digital broadcast to disk. |
| 18:02.49 | levi | The answer may be that no one else cares. :) |
| 18:04.59 | elg | in other news, I have a toothache |
| 18:05.43 | levi | Yuck. |
| 18:05.50 | elg | i think dental work is one of the primary reasons not to stay in grad school forever :) |
| 18:06.17 | jsmith | elg: Whatever excuse works! |
| 18:06.56 | elg | really hard to do all that maintenance stuff for teeth, eyes, physicals, etc. when you're a poor student |
| 18:07.19 | elg | which doesn't pose much of a problem when you're 18-26 years old |
| 18:09.34 | dmdavis | elg: you could have warned me about that before I applied |
| 18:09.44 | elg | :) |
| 18:09.53 | elg | not impossible |
| 18:09.57 | *** join/#utah jottley (n=jottley@c-67-182-209-214.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:10.08 | elg | just probably wise to overcome the "i don't have money to go to the dentist" impulse |
| 18:10.20 | elg | i never much liked dentists anyway |
| 18:10.22 | dmdavis | elg: luckily, my current job will let me stay on as a contractor, so I won't be quite as poor as I could be |
| 18:10.34 | dmdavis | pretty close, though |
| 18:10.45 | elg | and when I was a kid, I NEVER brushed my teeth and the dentists were always lavishing me with praise on how good I took care of my teeth |
| 18:10.58 | elg | i figured I had something in my saliva that took care of it. :) |
| 18:11.03 | elg | i think it wore off though |
| 18:11.07 | elg | i do brush now |
| 18:11.52 | dmdavis | and now you have a tooth-ache... |
| 18:11.59 | dmdavis | maybe you should have stuck with the old technique |
| 18:11.59 | elg | yeah |
| 18:12.13 | elg | i know. |
| 18:12.26 | elg | i think there are lots of pros to the kid lifestyle |
| 18:12.33 | elg | I think I'll go back to being a kid |
| 18:12.54 | dmdavis | like your skin not getting as dried out, because you never wash it :) |
| 18:12.54 | *** join/#utah hagna (n=hagna@70.102.57.178) |
| 18:13.18 | dmdavis | your immune system being tough, because you're willing to eat and touch things you really shouldn't |
| 18:18.18 | *** part/#utah hagna (n=hagna@70.102.57.178) |
| 18:18.21 | elg | that's different from now how? :) |
| 18:18.46 | dmdavis | my wife has more control over those things than my mom did ;) |
| 18:19.03 | elg | haha |
| 18:27.08 | *** join/#utah gdw2 (n=gdw@75-169-17-3.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:27.52 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 18:33.37 | unum | elg: you're still in school, how much is your life really different from being a kid |
| 18:34.13 | unum | was suprised how much his self image changed when he left school |
| 18:38.00 | *** part/#utah gdw2 (n=gdw@75-169-17-3.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 18:42.04 | sjansen | Yeah, but elg already has the responsibility of a family and consulting gig. |
| 18:42.43 | sjansen | I suspect the only thing that'll really change is if he gets a high paying job, the lure of money will surprise him. |
| 18:44.20 | *** join/#utah strawberry-jam (n=jamjam2@host86-157-226-145.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:45.57 | *** join/#utah nick125_1ee (n=nick@edge1.nick125.com) |
| 18:46.10 | elg | unum: :) |
| 18:46.21 | elg | well, your self image does change when you switch to graduate school |
| 18:46.36 | *** join/#utah nick125 (n=nick@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 18:47.25 | elg | sjansen: the lure of money or the enjoyment of it? |
| 18:48.18 | sjansen | The lure. It's hard to walk away from a high paying job. |
| 18:48.45 | *** part/#utah strawberry-jam (n=jamjam2@host86-157-226-145.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:49.36 | sjansen | Knowing you, you'll continue to spend your money carefully. After awhile, one gets used to watching the bank account grow. |
| 18:49.55 | unum | is much happier now that he has money |
| 18:50.09 | unum | who ever said money can't buy happiness was never poor |
| 18:50.11 | elg | carefully, i hope. but I do hope to shed the cheapskate |
| 18:50.17 | elg | even if not the image of the cheapskate :) |
| 18:50.36 | elg | unum: it's a one-sided argument. poverty can't buy you happiness either |
| 18:51.17 | sjansen | Who needs a BMW when a Honda is more reliable? Now a kickin' laptop, that's completely different. |
| 18:51.27 | elg | amen brotha |
| 18:51.37 | unum | is tempted by the eeepc |
| 18:51.45 | unum | credit shouldn't be so easy to get.... |
| 18:52.25 | sjansen | credit? |
| 18:52.34 | sjansen | is allergic to credit |
| 18:52.43 | unum | tries to develope the allergy |
| 18:52.49 | elg | i plan to fly - not cheap. plan to do cool geeky things with the house. build a nice brick oven. get a new honda for the next 10-15 years. |
| 18:52.57 | unum | I always want to add an e to develop |
| 18:52.59 | elg | money is like hard disk space |
| 18:53.09 | dmdavis | cheap? |
| 18:53.14 | unum | sweet |
| 18:53.17 | dmdavis | measured in GB? |
| 18:53.20 | elg | you can always find something to do with it |
| 18:53.27 | elg | never too much |
| 18:53.43 | elg | always short |
| 18:54.00 | elg | magnetic-sensitive? |
| 18:54.04 | dmdavis | and when you get more, it's exciting for a bit, then it becomes the new baseline |
| 18:54.15 | unum | dmdavis: isn't that the truth |
| 18:54.56 | sjansen | Actually, now that you mention, I'm pretty tight with my HD space too. I prefer to delete file before growing an LV. Don't even remember how big my HD actually is. |
| 18:55.17 | dmdavis | and you can never figure out how you made do with what you used to have |
| 18:56.16 | *** part/#utah eco (n=eco@gnuk.net) |
| 18:56.29 | elg | and the answer is of course that you didn't. the past is a bunch of planted memories from when they wiped your brain |
| 18:56.36 | sjansen | Well, for starters, it involved a lot fewer cocoa butter foot massages... |
| 18:56.51 | sjansen | And the water heater used to run on natural gas instead of dollar bills... |
| 18:57.04 | dmdavis | oh, I just get one of those massages a week, I doubt it really affects my bottom line |
| 18:57.45 | elg | i sure am hungry this week |
| 18:58.07 | dmdavis | must be fast sunday coming up for you. that's when I get a hungry week |
| 18:58.40 | elg | heh |
| 18:58.58 | elg | stock up, lads! the nut is going to fast this sunday |
| 18:59.07 | dmdavis | :) |
| 19:03.56 | unum | hungry? |
| 19:04.04 | unum | I used to know what that word meant |
| 19:04.11 | unum | bbiab - going to subway |
| 19:04.25 | nick125 | Anyone here use LDAP for mail auth? |
| 19:04.31 | elg | yes |
| 19:04.32 | nick125 | well, mail routing |
| 19:04.51 | nick125 | elg: would you mind telling me how you have it setup? |
| 19:05.30 | elg | hm, well postfix consults ldap |
| 19:05.36 | elg | ldap has users |
| 19:05.43 | elg | including their forwarding address |
| 19:06.15 | nick125 | I couldn't figure out what maildrops were used for...I mean, I want the mail to go to the user's homedir |
| 19:06.21 | nick125 | (or somewhere....heh) |
| 19:06.23 | elg | or in some cases, no forwarding address in which case it's delivered locally (and dovecot uses ldap to let them at their mail - real local users (like me) use a forwarding address) |
| 19:06.45 | elg | so hans@fugal.net goes to fugalh@falcon.fugal.net |
| 19:07.08 | elg | the latter gets delivered (well, now it gets forwarded to gmail bec. of my .forward file, but that's irrelevant) |
| 19:07.27 | elg | fred@fugal.net goes to fredisaloser@msn.com |
| 19:07.54 | elg | and never gets there because msn believes a server in the middle is a spammer |
| 19:08.06 | nick125 | So if the user doesn't have a maildrop, it goes stores it locally? |
| 19:08.42 | elg | in /var/spool/mail/fugal.net |
| 19:09.10 | elg | virtual_mailbox_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/fugal.net/mailboxes, ldap:/etc/postfix/ |
| 19:09.11 | elg | fugal.net/mailboxes.ldap |
| 19:09.11 | elg | virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/fugal.net/aliases, ldap:/etc/postfix/fuga |
| 19:09.11 | elg | l.net/aliases.ldap |
| 19:09.24 | elg | sorry about the rapping |
| 19:09.26 | nick125 | elg: Is there a special schema for Postfix or where does it get the maildrop attributes? |
| 19:10.51 | elg | the /etc/postfix/fugal.net/*.ldap files |
| 19:11.08 | nick125 | Well, for the LDAP server (I'm assuming you're using openldap). |
| 19:11.18 | elg | aliases.ldap has bind_dn, bind_pw, version, search_base, query_filter, result_attribute = mail |
| 19:11.38 | elg | mailboxes.ldap is the same, except result_attribute = uid and result_filter = fugal.net/%s/ |
| 19:12.38 | elg | ou=people,dc=fugal,dc=net is organizationalUnit |
| 19:12.48 | elg | and the peeps are inetOrgPerson |
| 19:13.12 | elg | ah, my person is also posixAccount |
| 19:13.39 | elg | with uidNumber, gidNumber, homeDirectory |
| 19:13.56 | nick125 | elg: What schema is maildrop and so on in? I can't seem to find it |
| 19:14.00 | elg | though I'm not sure if that affects mail delivery - I still have mail set to my username |
| 19:14.11 | elg | maildrop? |
| 19:14.57 | *** join/#utah teabeer (n=bob@burninate.org) |
| 19:15.15 | nick125 | maildrop/mailacceptinggeneralid/etc |
| 19:15.39 | elg | what's that from? |
| 19:15.55 | nick125 | I'm reading this silly postfix/ldap tutorial |
| 19:16.12 | elg | http://pastebin.com/d259e8cb0 |
| 19:16.26 | teabeer | Hi #utah |
| 19:16.36 | nick125 | elg: Do you do virtual mail hosting? |
| 19:17.09 | teabeer | I'm betting on finding some redhat knowledgable folk around |
| 19:17.11 | elg | meaning what exactly? I only do my domain, but some of the mail users are virtual |
| 19:17.16 | elg | i.e. they don't have system accounts |
| 19:17.41 | nick125 | elg: Virtual meaning that some users don't have system accounts and multiple domains |
| 19:17.48 | teabeer | do any such redhat knowledable folk know where the 'proper' place to put 'ip rule' statements in redhat? |
| 19:18.19 | elg | under the mattress |
| 19:18.37 | teabeer | I can put 'ip route' statements in /etc/sysconfig/networking/route-eth0, but they are parsed through 'ip route add' |
| 19:18.38 | nick125 | elg: So, that mail statement tells it what user to accept mail for? |
| 19:18.55 | elg | the mail attribute tells it where to send mail for that person |
| 19:18.57 | teabeer | elg: that seems like the best place I've found :) |
| 19:19.08 | elg | might be a forwarding address. in this case it's a local username |
| 19:19.28 | elg | think |
| 19:19.34 | nick125 | I think I'm getting it.......... |
| 19:19.35 | elg | echo foo | mail $address |
| 19:20.04 | teabeer | I'd like to just add it to the file that gets run after the interface is up... if there is such a thing in redhat |
| 19:20.20 | elg | ~onjoin beandog |
| 19:20.20 | teabeer | like a post-up: line in /etc/network/interfaces on debian and variants |
| 19:21.03 | elg | blasted bot |
| 19:21.07 | elg | ~onjoin levi |
| 19:21.07 | ibot | onjoin for levi set by supaplex on Mon Oct 1 22:36:59 2007: levi: ARRRG! Your packets be dropping from your leaky tubes! |
| 19:21.20 | elg | ~logs |
| 19:21.21 | ibot | hmm... logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz |
| 19:23.19 | elg | odd, ibot's onjoins aren't in the logs |
| 19:27.27 | nick125 | elg: Would you mind pastebinning your main.cf? |
| 19:29.43 | elg | http://pastebin.com/m6458573a |
| 19:29.47 | nick125 | thanks |
| 19:37.41 | levi | chuckles at the kerfuffle surrounding Steve Yegge's latest blog post. |
| 19:39.28 | levi | So many stereotypes playing out. |
| 19:40.08 | Tene | levi: details? |
| 19:40.51 | levi | He switched to a Mac. Being an X-head, he was intensely annoyed at the lack of focus-follows-mouse. |
| 19:42.09 | levi | He did a lot of research to figure out how to get FFM on a Mac. Turns out there's no good solution, but he did create a partially-working solution. |
| 19:42.59 | levi | Anyway, the comments were full of people who didn't read the whole article saying things that he described other people saying in the article. |
| 19:43.17 | Tene | heh |
| 19:43.22 | levi | Mac people telling him about programs that did FFM w/autoraise. |
| 19:43.32 | levi | Mac people telling him he really didn't want FFM. |
| 19:43.54 | levi | Mac people telling him he could just use X11 apps on the Mac. |
| 19:45.22 | sontek | ~destroy apple |
| 19:45.22 | ibot | no |
| 19:45.34 | levi | Then there were Open Source zealots trumpeting their agenda. Mouse-haters saying that the keyboard was universally faster than any mouse method. |
| 19:46.09 | levi | Good ibot. :) |
| 19:46.20 | levi | I like my Apple laptop. |
| 19:46.29 | levi | I like OS X. |
| 19:46.57 | sontek | I think OSX and their hardware are great products, I just don't agree with their business practices |
| 19:47.15 | sontek | from what I've seen, they work hard to establish a monopoly much worse than MS ever did |
| 19:47.59 | levi | Every company does. The difference is that MS succeeded. |
| 19:48.24 | sontek | and got fined billions of dollars by the european union |
| 19:48.34 | *** join/#utah gshipley (n=gshipley@nat/redhat/x-eddc12e013fd2cd0) |
| 19:48.35 | sontek | apple gets of free and can do whatever they want |
| 19:48.42 | levi | They are not yet a monopoly. |
| 19:49.20 | levi | Trying to become a monopoly is not a problem. Your legal actions become restricted once you become one, though. |
| 19:49.50 | sontek | no, it was microsofts actions that got them in trouble |
| 19:50.00 | levi | Because they were a monopoly. |
| 19:50.01 | sontek | but no one seems to even care about apples actions |
| 19:50.06 | sontek | everyone loves them :P |
| 19:51.19 | levi | Well, I'm not sure what specific actions you're referring to. |
| 19:51.36 | sontek | So now Microsoft is loosening up and releasing open source projects and licensing their code under approved OSI licenses and now we have a new monopoly coming into town that we have to fight with |
| 19:51.40 | levi | Apple is certainly not squeaky clean, but few giant corporations are. |
| 19:51.53 | jsmith | sontek: You trying to say that Steve Jobs wears turtlenecks to hide the scars of where the soul was sucked out of him? |
| 19:52.07 | sontek | jsmith: basically ;P |
| 19:52.09 | jsmith | loves his Apple laptop, but he's running Linux on it |
| 19:52.44 | sontek | levi: the latest instance of their tactics was when they released the hash on the ipod firmware so *only* itunes could interface with it |
| 19:53.30 | sontek | They basically have a monopoly on the mp3 player market and then just to take it a step further they were like "Ok! Now no one else can even interact with our hardware!" |
| 19:54.05 | levi | Last time I looked in BestBuy, there were quite a few non-Apple models of mp3 player on sale. |
| 19:54.52 | levi | And unless there's been another hash change thing, I think you're mischaracterizing that. |
| 19:55.08 | sontek | Yeah and Linux was always on the shelf with windows98/xp, doesn't mean there wasn't a monopoly ;) |
| 19:55.27 | nick125 | elg: In your setup, are you using maildir or mbox? |
| 19:55.50 | sontek | no, I think they spun it to make them look not so evil, just like they did with the iphone "devs will take down our network!! forget that treo, blackberry, symbian, and windows mobile all allow this" |
| 19:56.35 | *** join/#utah markl_ (n=mark@c-24-10-221-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 19:57.02 | sontek | and they are doing they are still monopolizing the iphone development even after opening the sdk... "Only we can release the apps!" |
| 19:57.58 | levi | It's not evil to do what they're doing. You may not like it, but it's not evil. |
| 19:59.08 | sontek | Whats not evil about it? Other software vendors should have the ability to release software on their hardware |
| 19:59.17 | sontek | or they are establishing a monopoly. |
| 19:59.17 | nick125 | elg: If you're still around, I'd appreciate it if you could post your dovecot config? |
| 19:59.47 | sontek | If microsoft can't include their own apps in their operating system because its a monopoly.... :P |
| 19:59.47 | levi | sontek: I think you don't understand what a monopoly is. |
| 20:00.35 | sontek | levi: well, my views of what a monopoly were skewed a bit when the EU started making microsoft remove their software from their operating system :P |
| 20:01.43 | sontek | I don't think what they are doing is any less evil than what microsoft used to do |
| 20:02.43 | levi | iPods and iPhones are in the category of video game consoles and the like, not PCs. |
| 20:02.59 | levi | How come you aren't whining about Nintendo? |
| 20:03.10 | sontek | levi: how is a phone like a game console? |
| 20:03.21 | levi | How is it not like a game console? |
| 20:03.21 | sontek | levi: there are hundreds of software vendors out there for mobile phones. |
| 20:03.33 | levi | For game consoles, too. |
| 20:03.43 | sontek | levi: Because the market has established them as mobile pcs? |
| 20:04.05 | sontek | levi: so you can check your e-mail, browse the web, instant message all from a handheld |
| 20:04.41 | levi | So, they're different because you want the iPhone to be open but you don't care about game consoles. |
| 20:04.58 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 20:05.16 | sontek | levi: I don't know anything about the game console market to comment, I don't own any other than a xbox running linux ;) |
| 20:05.27 | sontek | levi: but I know all the game vendors do provide SDKs of some sort |
| 20:05.33 | bonez44 | I need some basic disk help... |
| 20:05.55 | bonez44 | I have a box, which runs xp..it has two identical hdds.. each with xp installed... |
| 20:06.10 | levi | It's okay that Nintendo requires you to get a license from them to develop Nintendo software because Sony is also providing a platform to develop games on, so there's competition. |
| 20:06.21 | bonez44 | when I first set this box up, both boxes had their jumpers set for single machine, not master or slave...from factory... |
| 20:06.29 | levi | It's okay that Apple... etc. because Motorola also develops phones, so there's competition. |
| 20:06.36 | *** join/#utah Heartsbane (n=hearts@166-70-210-98.ip.xmission.com) |
| 20:06.40 | bonez44 | so when I booted up. I got the prompt to decide which box to boot, .. xp or xp .. |
| 20:06.53 | sontek | levi: I'm ok with requiring a license (I'm sure blackberry requires that too) but I don't think they should be the only vendor allowed to distribute software for it. |
| 20:07.11 | levi | sontek: Did you miss the iPhone SDK announcement? |
| 20:07.15 | sontek | levi: Nintendo doesn't say "You can build games for our system, but we are the only ones woh can distribute it!" |
| 20:07.26 | unum | 4) Would a dating service for people on the net be "frowned upon" by DCA? I hope not. But even if it is, don't let that stop you from notifying me via net mail if you start one. <- part of rms' response to the first spam sent in 1978 |
| 20:07.40 | levi | sontek: They have to approve any game distributed, which amounts to the same thing. |
| 20:07.42 | sontek | levi: The sdk allows you to develop the software, but apple is the only one who gets to distribute it |
| 20:08.00 | bonez44 | the problem, is I want to install an application on one of the drives..which is newer.. less populated, but when I boot to that drive it sees it's own C: drive, as D: since the other drive, has the boot loader, NTLDR on it... and this applicaiton refuses to load on the correct drive..confused by the drive numbering... |
| 20:10.11 | TimRiker | ~literal cmd: whaleslap (.*?) |
| 20:10.12 | ibot | "cmd: whaleslap (.*?)" is "($foo): <action> beats $foo upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh" |
| 20:10.21 | *** part/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 20:10.48 | sontek | levi: I see the iphone as a computer, not as a gaming console (but even if it was considered a gaming console, they are still monopolizing more than nintendo, sony, or microsoft), and I see what they are doing as if Microsoft said all software installed on windows would have to be distributed by them |
| 20:11.33 | levi | sontek: Your problem is that you're projecting your desires onto the reality of what's happening. It just ain't so. |
| 20:11.45 | levi | The iPhone is not a PC because you want it to be one. |
| 20:12.06 | sontek | It is to a PC. I use my e-mail on there, I ssh from there, I twitter from there |
| 20:12.12 | sontek | I don't play GTA3 on there |
| 20:12.17 | TimRiker | more like a console system. closed licensing. |
| 20:12.38 | levi | You could hack into a Nintendo and put all that stuff on there, too. |
| 20:12.43 | TimRiker | not that it should be. but that it is. :) |
| 20:12.55 | sontek | levi: but they are designed for 2 different purposes |
| 20:13.08 | sontek | levi: consoles are for entertainment, a start phone is to help you do your work remotely |
| 20:13.08 | levi | sontek: They are designed to run the software the Apple puts on them. |
| 20:13.11 | ^Migs^ | oops |
| 20:13.17 | ^Migs^ | I accidentally deleted all my fonts in Windows XP |
| 20:13.24 | ^Migs^ | now the OS shows no text at all |
| 20:13.37 | TimRiker | ^Migs^: sounds like an improvement. |
| 20:13.46 | sontek | TimRiker: yeah, thats what we are discussing, I called apple evil for how they are handling the iphone |
| 20:13.47 | ^Migs^ | why on earth would XP use deleteable fonts for its core functions? |
| 20:13.56 | levi | sontek: You're inventing some new rules for Apple to break. Things just aren't the way you think they are. |
| 20:14.18 | unum | anyone see a gphone yet? |
| 20:14.27 | TimRiker | sontek: a smart phone is to let you talk on the phone. Not "do your work remotely" so much as "do whatever the phone vendor and carrier want you to be able to do remotely" |
| 20:14.28 | levi | If you invent a device with an embedded processor, you get to control the software that ships on it. |
| 20:14.29 | sontek | unum: they demoed android at LRL |
| 20:14.30 | unum | or atleast look at android lately? |
| 20:14.38 | unum | sontek: what did you think? |
| 20:14.51 | levi | If you want to allow the device to receive software updates through channels you provide, that's fine. |
| 20:14.53 | TimRiker | sontek: demoed on real hardware? |
| 20:15.00 | sontek | unum: it looked awesome, but we'll have to see what they do with it |
| 20:15.06 | levi | But it's certainly not required, nor should it be. |
| 20:15.37 | TimRiker | sontek: apple is evil. they are just less evil that most of the other options. |
| 20:15.38 | levi | If people want to hack it and make it do stuff you didn't indend, that should be fine too, but you should be under no obligation to actually support that. |
| 20:16.21 | TimRiker | levi: now you're talking "should" and I completely disagree. I should be able to run what I want on the device that I own. |
| 20:16.28 | TimRiker | not that I can, but I should. |
| 20:17.42 | sontek | TimRiker: I think they are getting up there above MS at the moment |
| 20:17.48 | sontek | TimRiker: MS is actually opening up a bit |
| 20:17.51 | levi | TimRiker: Well, if you can figure out *how* to make it run what you want, there should be nothing that stops you from doing it with your own device. |
| 20:18.09 | TimRiker | sontek: now you're just falling for the MS market speak. it's all lies. |
| 20:18.40 | levi | I don't think a company should be under any obligation to make it easy for their devices to be repurposed for something other than what they intended. |
| 20:18.59 | TimRiker | "look! we published the docs on how outlook works" oh.. except that they are incorrect, incomplete, and reading them means anything you write belongs to us. |
| 20:20.10 | TimRiker | levi: it's only a matter of time. some phone vendor will stop playing the game and open up the phone. then they will reap the returns and the other vendors will have to follow along. it's just a matter of time now. |
| 20:21.20 | levi | TimRiker: Right, I completely agree with that sentiment. I just don't think it's in any way illegal or unethical to not intentionally open up the hardware. If they do it, it will be because it's a good idea that will make them money, not because they were required to. |
| 20:22.02 | levi | Keeping your hardware closed is not illegal, not unethical, not evil. Just unenlightened. |
| 20:22.33 | sontek | TimRiker: No standard is ever perfect, but if you compare OOXML to ODF, ODF is *terrible* |
| 20:22.55 | TimRiker | levi: I'm forced to agree with that. as long as people know what they are buying and buy it. they can configure it how they like. |
| 20:22.58 | sontek | TimRiker: and everytime Novell asked for something to be documented in it, they did so |
| 20:23.32 | sontek | TimRiker: The formulas for excel are now documented in OOXML, which gnumeric and OOo have had to reverse engineer for years |
| 20:24.08 | TimRiker | sontek: so you're impressed that M$ documents what others already documented? this is being less evil? |
| 20:24.45 | sontek | levi: I'm impressed that they are willing to do so, OOo and Gnumeric still don't handle excel forumulas properly, now they can |
| 20:24.48 | sontek | err TimRiker ^ |
| 20:24.56 | TimRiker | hehe. |
| 20:25.27 | TimRiker | dropped by to stir the embers. you are now returned to your program already in progress. |
| 20:25.28 | sontek | TimRiker: And its a step in the right direction and they did it better than our community could with ODF :P |
| 20:25.49 | sontek | ~stir TimRiker |
| 20:25.56 | TimRiker | aw |
| 20:25.58 | sontek | :( |
| 20:26.46 | TimRiker | ibot: stir $1 is <action> throws $1 in to the pot, stirs it up and serves $1 soup to all who want some |
| 20:26.46 | ibot | TimRiker: okay |
| 20:26.56 | TimRiker | ~stir sontek |
| 20:26.57 | ibot | ACTION throws sontek in to the pot, stirs it up and serves sontek soup to all who want some |
| 20:30.57 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@166.70.44.49) |
| 20:31.52 | levi | http://reperiendi.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/monoids/ |
| 20:31.59 | levi | Hey, I know what a monoid is now! |
| 20:47.14 | *** join/#utah mrpull (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 20:48.35 | levi | Grr, I have a headache that won't go away. :/ |
| 20:53.48 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@72.8.114.252) |
| 20:56.17 | *** join/#utah jottley_ (n=jottley@c-67-182-209-214.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:57.52 | Tene | levi: get someone else to take it. |
| 20:59.42 | Heartsbane | sontek: swing by I will give you the article |
| 21:10.20 | levi | Tene: You want it? |
| 21:19.47 | elg | nick125: you need it still? |
| 21:19.57 | nick125 | elg: If you could, I'd appreciate it. |
| 21:20.11 | nick125 | I've got it half-working....and I'm not sure how to get the other half. |
| 21:20.15 | elg | you want the whole verbose piece of hud? |
| 21:20.20 | elg | or do you want me to strip coments? |
| 21:20.28 | elg | maildir |
| 21:20.31 | nick125 | If you could strip the comments, I'd appreciate it. |
| 21:21.06 | nick125 | Right now, my main problem is that dovecot is rewriting the auth username from user@domain to user, which is fine, since I need user for LDAP, but I need the domain when finding the maildir. |
| 21:22.31 | nick125 | I could hardcode the domain....but that's lame |
| 21:23.28 | elg | http://pastebin.com/dad479a5 |
| 21:24.01 | nick125 | ah, I see. |
| 21:24.06 | elg | ah, i hardcode the domain in mail_location if that's what you mean |
| 21:24.09 | nick125 | You're hardcoding it...okay..hmm |
| 21:24.10 | elg | since i only have one domain |
| 21:24.18 | Sargun | nick125, ! |
| 21:24.24 | nick125 | Sargun: sup? |
| 21:24.57 | elg | but i reckon there's a way to get it elsehow |
| 21:27.42 | nick125 | I'll just hard code it for now |
| 21:38.11 | elg | levi: i still don't know what a monoid is |
| 21:38.26 | elg | though i got a lot closer when reading this book (in 3 sentences) than I did with that blog entry |
| 21:38.48 | Sargun | nick125, not much |
| 21:38.51 | Sargun | HARD code! |
| 21:40.26 | nick125 | w00t |
| 21:40.31 | nick125 | I got dovecot working |
| 21:40.33 | elg | from properties of catenation: [] + S = S + [] = S, and S + (T + U) = (S + T) + U. (dealing with sequences). First says empty list is the identiy of catenate, and the second that catenate is associative |
| 21:40.34 | nick125 | is awesome |
| 21:40.45 | elg | "Hence a sequence type is a monoid with respect to this operation." |
| 21:41.20 | dmdavis | so, it's a monoid with respect to an operation if it's commutative and has an identity? |
| 21:41.42 | elg | associative |
| 21:41.44 | dmdavis | or associative, rather |
| 21:41.44 | dmdavis | :) |
| 21:42.04 | Sargun | ahahhh! |
| 21:42.12 | elg | wikipedia and dmdavis put it clearer. "a monoid is an algebraic structure with a single, associative binary operation and an identity element. " |
| 21:42.15 | Sargun | nick125, why not postfix? |
| 21:42.34 | elg | cuz postfix isn't an imap server? |
| 21:43.08 | elg | i bet "mon" comes from single |
| 21:43.14 | elg | and oid just sounds cool |
| 21:43.18 | elg | ergo, monoid |
| 21:43.38 | dmdavis | mono-id? |
| 21:43.44 | dmdavis | one identity? |
| 21:43.59 | elg | i prefer the abducted byaliens theory |
| 21:44.23 | nick125 | Sargun: what elg said. |
| 21:44.50 | dmdavis | mon (Jamaican for "man") - oi (expression of surprise) - d (a letter) |
| 21:45.41 | Sargun | err, yeah, er, I mean cyrus |
| 21:46.06 | nick125 | Isn't cyrus SASL? |
| 21:46.40 | nick125 | hmmm...looks like they have a IMAP server to |
| 21:46.42 | nick125 | *too |
| 21:47.23 | nick125 | gets ready to pull up ntpd |
| 21:49.28 | Sargun | gets ready to push down nick125 |
| 21:53.08 | *** join/#utah nick125 (n=nick@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 21:55.47 | nick125 | I think I did quite well. |
| 21:59.53 | nick125 | 23 hours and 15 minutes from the time I shutdown my old install until I have my basic services back up and running. |
| 22:01.13 | macnewbold | what's ibot's deal with GRAPHVIZ today? |
| 22:01.54 | nick125 | Only three of those hours were sleeping, and the stupid pdns emerge died while I was asleep. I still feel pretty reved up, considering that I've only had 3 hours of sleep in the last 35 hours or so.. |
| 22:02.02 | nick125 | ~onjoin -nick125 |
| 22:02.02 | ibot | ok, nick125 |
| 22:02.06 | Sargun | uh |
| 22:02.08 | *** part/#utah nick125 (n=nick@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 22:02.08 | Sargun | nick125, nick. |
| 22:02.08 | *** join/#utah nick125 (n=nick@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 22:02.15 | nick125 | Sargun: yeah? |
| 22:02.26 | Sargun | uh |
| 22:02.26 | Sargun | nice |
| 22:02.28 | Sargun | on the sleep |
| 22:02.31 | Sargun | uh |
| 22:02.33 | Sargun | take some crack |
| 22:02.36 | Sargun | CRACK! |
| 22:02.48 | nick125 | Sargun: I'm fresh out, unfortunately. |
| 22:03.17 | Sargun | dang. |
| 22:03.22 | Sargun | I wish I had a private Army. |
| 22:03.33 | Sargun | Or a private defense department |
| 22:10.31 | levi | elg: Yeah, the succinct definition requires more mathematical sophistication than the blog entry with pictures and stuff. But it's clearer if you do have the prerequisite knowledge. |
| 22:11.00 | levi | I guess knowing what a monoid is is pretty useless if you don't know enough to understand the succinct definition. |
| 22:11.35 | levi | But at least you might have a vague perecption of what the concepts involved are. |
| 22:11.43 | Sargun | hmm. |
| 22:12.01 | elg | the blog requires mathematical sophistication too |
| 22:12.01 | elg | as his commentor noted |
| 22:12.10 | elg | it just tries to pretend to be accessible at the same time |
| 22:12.20 | elg | but pictures are nice anyway ;) |
| 22:12.21 | levi | I guess that's true. |
| 22:12.24 | Sargun | What are developers most likely to develop for: $100 at a strip club, $100 in cash, $100 @ bar, $100 in beer. |
| 22:12.40 | Sargun | or $100 in food |
| 22:12.47 | elg | depends on the developer |
| 22:12.49 | levi | Depends on the people. |
| 22:12.51 | nick125 | Sargun: What about $100 in hardware? |
| 22:13.06 | sontek | I'd cut out the strip club and food and just go all bar :D |
| 22:13.17 | Sargun | nick125, what hardware can you buy for $100? |
| 22:13.27 | elg | some ram |
| 22:13.29 | levi | How far does $100 get you at a bar? |
| 22:13.30 | elg | a hdd |
| 22:13.31 | sjansen | RAM |
| 22:13.32 | nick125 | stick of RAM? |
| 22:13.34 | nick125 | lol |
| 22:13.38 | Sargun | hehe |
| 22:13.44 | sontek | levi: close to death |
| 22:13.50 | elg | a medium-nice video card |
| 22:14.00 | elg | maybe just medium. better than low-end anyway |
| 22:14.05 | levi | sontek: Well presumably you wouldn't want to spend it all in one visit. |
| 22:14.11 | nick125 | you coulld buy five crappy SATA cards for $100. |
| 22:14.59 | sontek | levi: $15 a night is casual (no more than 3-4 beers) do any more than that and you are trying to get drunk |
| 22:15.56 | levi | sontek: What if you go for something other than beers? Is pricing based vaguely on alcohol content, or are there more expensive low-proof drinks? |
| 22:16.59 | sontek | levi: beers are $3-$5, getting mixed drinks get more expensive ($6-$10) |
| 22:17.44 | sontek | Not really based on alcohol content, more so of brand/popularity and if they had too be imported |
| 22:17.50 | sontek | and liquor is always more expensive |
| 22:17.54 | sontek | but does the job quicker |
| 22:18.04 | Tene | What's the least alcohol you could get at a bar for $100? |
| 22:18.14 | levi | Lots of water? :) |
| 22:18.33 | sjansen | Had the bar tender a $100 tip? |
| 22:18.39 | sjansen | s/Had/Hand/ |
| 22:18.49 | Tene | s/sjansen's hands// |
| 22:19.06 | sontek | Tene: order very expensive mixed drinks |
| 22:19.13 | Sargun | There are a lot of bars with $150 minimum... |
| 22:19.19 | Sargun | err, clubs/lounges. |
| 22:19.22 | Sargun | but that's per group. |
| 22:19.23 | sontek | Tene: be like "Appletini, light on the tini"! |
| 22:19.41 | Sargun | so take some cute girls? |
| 22:19.50 | sontek | price will be the same, alcohol content will be low |
| 22:20.15 | sontek | but with $100, you are going to want to buy some hotties drinks |
| 22:20.25 | sontek | no way you are walking out of there if you drink the $100 away :P |
| 22:20.43 | nick125 | Sargun: /wi3 |
| 22:20.44 | nick125 | er |
| 22:21.21 | Sargun | that makes a lot of sense... |
| 22:21.45 | mrpull | I don't drink, but I've been to several restaurants that have single servings (of say cognac) that far exceed $100 |
| 22:22.52 | nick125 | Sargun: Let's just hope whoever you give the $100 to has better luck with women than you do. |
| 22:22.58 | Sargun | nick125, -_- |
| 22:23.06 | mrpull | so was the original question answered? |
| 22:23.08 | Sargun | sontek, don't you want to have high alcohol content with attractive women... |
| 22:23.13 | mrpull | what $100 was worth the most? |
| 22:23.30 | Sargun | mrpull, Depends if you can get your hands on attractive women or not. |
| 22:23.32 | nick125 | I'd probably take the cash myself... |
| 22:23.44 | mrpull | I've put my hands on some very attractive women :) |
| 22:23.51 | Sargun | mrpull, -_- |
| 22:23.55 | Sargun | ~lart mrpull |
| 22:23.55 | ibot | cuts mrpull into thin stripes |
| 22:24.09 | Sargun | ~zap mrpull |
| 22:24.09 | ibot | ACTION takes out a cattle prod and gives mrpull a good jolt. |
| 22:24.10 | nick125 | Sargun: And before you get any ideas, putting your hand on your monitor is *not* the same. |
| 22:24.13 | Sargun | ~kill mrpull |
| 22:24.14 | ibot | ACTION shoots a inverse fluxproton gun at mrpull |
| 22:24.29 | Sargun | ~whale mrpull |
| 22:24.34 | Sargun | hm... |
| 22:24.54 | Tene | I put my hands on sjansen earlier today. |
| 22:25.01 | Jayce^ | whoooo yazoo doing a reunion tour... why had I not heard of this earlier! |
| 22:25.06 | nick125 | Tene: Don't want to know. |
| 22:25.29 | Sargun | Tene, sounds fun |
| 22:25.35 | sjansen | He tried to push me around. I showed him who's the boss. |
| 22:25.38 | nick125 | Ogg or FLAC? |
| 22:25.41 | mrpull | yikes... does he still have the beard? I'll stick with my attractive woman :) |
| 22:26.12 | mrpull | maybe the sargun's broken pipe is the source of his woman problems |
| 22:26.26 | sjansen | Tene: I'm surprised you able to avoid typos despite the finger splints. |
| 22:27.38 | Tene | sjansen: tab-completion. I just keep hitting 'tab' with my big toe until it shows the word I want. |
| 22:27.57 | levi | Jayce^: Interesting. |
| 22:28.14 | Jayce^ | levi http://www.yazooinfo.com/news.html#n10 |
| 22:28.17 | brac | [Yazoo • News] |
| 22:28.29 | Jayce^ | elg: you'll probably like that too |
| 22:29.04 | elg | nice :) |
| 22:29.12 | elg | are they releasing any stuff, or just touring? |
| 22:29.15 | levi | Jayce^: Now Vince Clarke just needs to get back together with Depeche Mode. |
| 22:29.47 | mrpull | heh... I looked at that yazoo site and thought... this music sounds a helluva lot like Yaz |
| 22:29.52 | Jayce^ | get all three bands touring together... that would be fun |
| 22:29.55 | mrpull | is an idiot |
| 22:29.59 | Jayce^ | mrpull nice |
| 22:31.11 | mrpull | I wasn't aware of the depeche mode connection either... not much of a synth pop guy |
| 22:31.39 | Jayce^ | ~whaleslap mrpull |
| 22:31.40 | ibot | ACTION beats mrpull upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 22:32.11 | mrpull | I didn't say it was bad. |
| 22:32.17 | mrpull | dang... no love for me today |
| 22:32.39 | elg | ironically, i've never liked "only you" |
| 22:32.46 | elg | I like the enrique iglesias cover better |
| 22:33.29 | elg | but it looks like if vince hadn't done only you and it was a hit, he would have gone and got a day job |
| 22:33.33 | mrpull | speaking of music... WTF? metallica is hinting that they'll give their next record away ala radiohead? |
| 22:33.51 | elg | haha |
| 22:34.15 | mrpull | I'll buy it if it is free :) |
| 22:34.16 | levi | elg: What about 'Situation'? |
| 22:34.21 | elg | love situation |
| 22:34.26 | elg | and most of their stuff |
| 22:34.48 | elg | especially the weirder stuff, like i before e, midnight |
| 22:35.03 | levi | Do you like Art of Noise? |
| 22:36.15 | elg | don't know it. was it on the second album (or is it another group...)? |
| 22:36.22 | levi | Another group. |
| 22:36.50 | levi | More synthesizer stuff, in the save vein as Yaz(oo)'s weirder stuff. |
| 22:37.13 | levi | They also happened to do the Max Headroom theme, if you remember that. |
| 22:38.15 | elg | ah, cool |
| 22:38.19 | levi | http://www.last.fm/music/Art+of+Noise/_/Beat+Box+(Diversion+1) |
| 22:38.20 | elg | sounds like a group i'd like |
| 22:38.35 | levi | There's a track I particularly like. |
| 22:39.54 | levi | Or, for the whole thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyGdk23KNUB |
| 22:40.23 | nick125 | Hmm....I need some way to be able to access the files in my homedir even when I'm not at home. |
| 22:44.05 | mrpull | nick125: it seems you are capable of coming up with a few solutions on your own :) |
| 22:44.06 | elg | The URL contained a malformed video ID. |
| 22:44.31 | levi | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyGdk23KNU |
| 22:44.37 | levi | I dunno how the B got on there. |
| 22:45.52 | mrpull | nick125: my suggestion would be, sync your home directory to a windows 95 box outside your firewall and use SMB/CIFS to share it (without a password for convenience of course) |
| 22:46.05 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=david_pa@75.144.9.237) |
| 22:46.36 | nick125 | mrpull: Good idea. |
| 22:46.56 | mrpull | nick125: happy to help. make sure to put your mp3 collection on there so I can share. |
| 22:47.04 | mrpull | got any 80's hair metal? |
| 22:47.09 | nick125 | mrpull: I don't think so. |
| 22:48.07 | bonez44 | is it possible to install grub..to act as my boot loader..instead of trying to repair the MBR...on an XP machine? |
| 22:50.36 | mrpull | probably, but isn't repairing the mbr with windows tools the shortest route to your goal? |
| 22:51.31 | bonez44 | YEAH, but I don't know how to do that.... |
| 22:52.09 | mrpull | boot to a DOS disk and type fdisk /mbr |
| 22:52.25 | bonez44 | a DOS disk? I have none around...none at all.... |
| 22:52.48 | bonez44 | I h ave XP running on this machine and I have other xp and linux boxen here......just no DOS discs |
| 22:53.56 | mrpull | bootdisk.com may be some help |
| 22:54.24 | mrpull | it might be wise to image the disk before you play with fdisk :) |
| 22:55.07 | bonez44 | image the disk? |
| 22:55.32 | mrpull | I guess one advantage of grub is you could tinker with it and get it all happy booting grub from a floppy before you write grub to the hdd |
| 22:56.22 | mrpull | image == one way to back up your disk before you tinker with it |
| 22:56.30 | nick125 | Can grub read NTFS/FAT32 partitions? Where would you put the grub config? |
| 23:01.23 | sjansen | nick125: What does google say? |
| 23:02.45 | sjansen | My money says no. Grub chainloads ntloader to boot Windows, so I'm betting it can't. |
| 23:03.04 | nick125 | sjansen: That's my guess as well... |
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