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| 00:37.48 | levi | elg: pong |
| 00:42.07 | elg | see my blog ;-) |
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| 00:51.33 | levi | Aha. :) |
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| 01:13.22 | levi | elg: I replied on your blog. |
| 01:15.50 | elg | do you have a link for The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs |
| 01:15.56 | elg | or do I have to google it? :) |
| 01:15.58 | elg | ~google The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs |
| 01:16.20 | elg | i thought about maybe going through my algorithms book and implementing them all in $LANG |
| 01:16.44 | levi | It's aka SICP. |
| 01:23.54 | findlay | http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ |
| 01:24.06 | levi | So, my compiler is starting to generate target code. :) |
| 01:25.22 | findlay | code shaped like a target? |
| 01:25.36 | findlay | couldn't you just do that in perl? |
| 01:27.53 | levi | I'm compiling a totally lame language called 'kxi' to a totally lame assembly language that I wrote a virtual machine for last year. |
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| 01:30.04 | dilvie | I'm migrating dilvie.com from Blogger to WordPress |
| 01:31.26 | elg | levi: using a totally unlame language as the compiler? |
| 01:31.39 | levi | elg: Haskell |
| 01:31.51 | elg | i take that as a "no comment"? ;-) |
| 01:31.57 | levi | I'm reserving judgement on its lameness. :) |
| 01:32.59 | levi | But it's at least way, way less lame than kxi or the assembly language. |
| 01:40.41 | findlay | dilvie: how's it going? |
| 01:42.28 | findlay | levi: meaning that a language that was schemed out years ago and hacked on by hundreds might have a chance of being neater than your own pedagogical offering? :) |
| 01:42.45 | Supaplex | waves @ dilvie |
| 01:46.58 | levi | findlay: I didn't design either kxi or the assembly language. |
| 01:47.04 | levi | They're just toy languages. |
| 01:47.48 | elg | so in seaside and other continuation-based web frameworks, do they store the continuation state on the server in a session or on the client in a cookie (or implicitly in the form)? |
| 01:48.32 | elg | seems only the session would have some semblance of security, but then what about people that abandon their course through your site? do you have to garbage collect your continuations? |
| 01:49.17 | levi | Yes, the continuations are generally stored on the server and expire after some period of time. |
| 02:02.57 | dilvie | hi supa, findlay |
| 02:03.00 | dilvie | going well! |
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| 02:59.25 | findlay | heh, just wondering how his blog migration was going |
| 02:59.39 | findlay | I'm thinking of migrating to a different blog |
| 03:00.30 | nick125 | is thinking of migrating his blog to Plone |
| 03:00.35 | findlay | levi: are there any lightweight blog apps written in a trendy functional language that you know of? |
| 03:01.00 | findlay | nick125: plone sits on top of zope, right? |
| 03:01.27 | nick125 | yep |
| 03:02.39 | findlay | and zope is the J2EE(R) of python :-) |
| 03:03.06 | nick125 | lol |
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| 03:13.14 | levi | findlay: What's your idea of a 'trendy functional language'? |
| 03:13.46 | levi | This is hilarious: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=741653 |
| 03:20.04 | levi | Here I go bidding on yet another keyboard on eBay. One of these days I'll win one. |
| 03:20.33 | findlay | levi: IBM? |
| 03:20.52 | findlay | levi: pretty much any functional language is trendy these days |
| 03:22.28 | levi | No, it's a laptop keyboard. |
| 03:22.33 | findlay | oh |
| 03:22.35 | levi | Mine has a couple of keys broken off. |
| 03:22.38 | findlay | good luck |
| 03:22.47 | levi | This is my third attempt. |
| 03:23.00 | levi | People keep outbidding me at the last minute. |
| 03:23.31 | findlay | the thing about ebay is you have to stay disinterested. Either it will have what you want at the price you want or it won't |
| 03:31.53 | levi | Well, there are a zillion of these things on there. |
| 03:32.04 | levi | And they're going at prices I'm willing to pay. |
| 03:32.15 | levi | It's just that I'm not winning the auctions. |
| 03:55.46 | levi | So, I need to write a 5 page paper (with some code snippets!) about an imaginary OS that I would like. |
| 03:57.42 | nick125 | Sounds painful. |
| 04:06.32 | levi | Yeah. |
| 04:09.22 | sontek | http://compsci.ca/blog/if-a-programming-language-was-a-boat/ |
| 04:13.29 | levi | Huh, Charlton Heston died yesterday. |
| 04:13.38 | rsimpkins | levi: What kinda keyboard are you bidding on? |
| 04:13.50 | levi | rsimpkins: iBook G4 |
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| 05:02.49 | Sargun | ugh |
| 05:06.08 | Supaplex | there goes Sargun grunting again |
| 05:06.29 | Sargun | oh, you all love my grunts. |
| 05:06.51 | Sargun | ah, I'm hilarious. |
| 05:07.04 | Sargun | hm, I'm bored. |
| 05:07.10 | Supaplex | looks don't count |
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| 12:10.39 | elg | ~rlart |
| 12:10.39 | ibot | forces encryptz to use Outlook Express |
| 12:17.36 | elg | isn't that sweet |
| 12:19.05 | elg | rip tomasulo |
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| 14:18.33 | tensai | ~lart elg |
| 14:18.33 | ibot | strangles elg with a 9-pole serial cable |
| 14:18.49 | elg | ~lart tensai |
| 14:18.49 | ibot | squeezes tensai till tensai turns blue like papa smurf |
| 14:19.00 | elg | ~feel you |
| 14:19.31 | elg | ~feel $tensai is <reply>o/~ I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL $tensai |
| 14:19.32 | ibot | elg: okay |
| 14:20.27 | tensai | yes, it is time for some depeche mode |
| 14:25.34 | elg | ahh. that was refreshing |
| 14:50.51 | tristanbob | are there any cheap firewall devices that allow you to create ACLS |
| 14:51.05 | eggyknap | Define "cheap" |
| 14:51.20 | tristanbob | some of the linksys devices can run OpenWRT, or similar |
| 14:51.26 | tristanbob | but what about by default |
| 14:51.30 | tristanbob | eggyknap, under $200 |
| 14:51.59 | tristanbob | the purpose is to restrict who can print to a printer - the firewall sits in front of the printer |
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| 15:10.23 | nearn | mornig |
| 15:14.12 | elg | tristanbob: an openwrt-capable router is easily under $200 |
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| 15:36.07 | tensai | tristanbob: another option would be to put the printer behind a CUPS server and use rules on there |
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| 15:50.46 | mecworks_ | sontek: you were looking for me? |
| 15:52.28 | ^Migs^ | http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/olympic_torch_used_to |
| 15:56.01 | ^Migs^ | http://sfist.com/2008/03/31/presidential_me_1.php |
| 15:56.59 | sontek | mecworks: yeah, wanted you to fix mono:community :P |
| 15:57.07 | mecworks | ah. |
| 15:57.12 | mecworks | The tomboy thing? |
| 15:57.22 | sontek | its effecting all mono gtk apps |
| 15:57.25 | mecworks | ah |
| 15:57.30 | sontek | tomboy was just the one I noticed since I work on it :P |
| 15:57.51 | sontek | gtk-sharp was set to 2.12 when it should be 2.10 |
| 15:58.04 | mecworks | ok. We just pull in pieces from other projects but I'll take a look at it. |
| 15:58.26 | mecworks | The issue is that we are moving to GTK# 1.2. All other apps may need to change to meet up with our release |
| 15:58.40 | mecworks | 1.12 I mean |
| 15:58.43 | mecworks | um.... |
| 15:58.48 | mecworks | 2.12... :) |
| 15:59.20 | sontek | yeah, Tomboy bumped our requirement to 2.10 recently, it should still work with 2.12 though |
| 15:59.29 | sontek | but 2.12 gtk-sharp needs to be added to m:c then |
| 15:59.33 | sontek | it wasn't in there at all |
| 15:59.36 | mecworks | ok |
| 15:59.39 | mecworks | I can add it |
| 15:59.42 | elg | is there a library for writing card games? |
| 15:59.58 | sontek | thanks =) |
| 16:00.20 | mecworks | np. thanks for the heads-up |
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| 16:02.13 | sjansen | You know, it never ceases to amaze me how many gotcha's there are in shell scripting. |
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| 16:11.28 | elg | just had an evil thought |
| 16:11.41 | elg | have my C students do a CGI |
| 16:11.43 | levi | sjansen: It never ceases to amaze me that people still use shell to write programs. |
| 16:12.01 | levi | elg: I wrote a whole http 1.0 server in C. |
| 16:12.13 | levi | Well, most of one, anyway. |
| 16:12.19 | elg | well, but CGI |
| 16:12.25 | elg | i mean, you write servers in C |
| 16:12.48 | ^Migs^ | http://intelli.us/~laptopzz/imagechan/Jewcat.jpg |
| 16:13.08 | levi | Well, it serves both static and dynamic pages... it's kind of like a server with a built-in cgi program. |
| 16:13.21 | elg | ah |
| 16:13.52 | levi | C is probably the language I know that's least suited to writing web apps. :) |
| 16:14.38 | levi | It might be interesting to have them write CGI programs, and then instrument them to see all the possible memory leaks, buffer overflows, etc. |
| 16:15.18 | elg | i was thinking more of just the fact that it would be a possible way to introduce event-based programming |
| 16:15.25 | elg | may be simpler than a simple GUI program. or may not |
| 16:15.42 | levi | "See this program you wrote that seems to work? Here's 10 pages of faults!" |
| 16:15.51 | elg | :) |
| 16:15.57 | levi | "Behold, the power of C!" |
| 16:16.04 | sjansen | levi: Not programs. Scripts. Small simple solution under a hundred lines to automate a repetitive process. |
| 16:16.19 | levi | sjansen: Scripts are a subset of programs. |
| 16:16.58 | levi | sjansen: And the shells in common use today suck at non-trivial scripting. |
| 16:16.59 | sjansen | I don't believe you don't understand why people use a language they already know to automate commands they already know. |
| 16:17.20 | levi | Well, of course I understand why they do. |
| 16:17.45 | levi | My comment was more of a statement about the incomprehensibility of human nature. |
| 16:18.04 | sjansen | What I'm doing is pretty trivial. It amazes me how even the trivial stuff has gotchas because of wacky default command behavior. |
| 16:18.06 | levi | We're prone to go through all sorts of pain to avoid learning new things. :P |
| 16:19.30 | levi | Unix, as beautiful as its core ideas are, actually sucks pretty hard in the real world. It's just that it's in kind of a sweet spot, a local minima of suckiness. |
| 16:19.53 | levi | Er, a local minimum, I guess. |
| 16:21.37 | levi | When I say that shell scripting sucks, everyone defends it because 'it's everywhere'. Well, the only reason it's still everywhere is because so many people still use it. |
| 16:21.54 | elg | it's DSL |
| 16:21.59 | elg | a DSL even |
| 16:22.09 | sjansen | elg: If you keep it trivial, you should be able to supply them with a simple, abstracted app where they just fill in the blanks. Of course you'd give them the source to learn from. Do it right and you'll be teaching the power of abstraction. Even if it's super simple, real world is always more fun than cheesy. |
| 16:22.33 | levi | Well, yes. So? Being a DSL does not automatically imply goodness. |
| 16:22.53 | elg | nope, in fact it implies badness - bad for what it wasn't designed for |
| 16:23.07 | elg | of course it may or may not be good for what it was designed for |
| 16:23.10 | levi | It doesn't even imply badness for what it was designed for. |
| 16:23.21 | levi | s/badness/goodness/ |
| 16:23.24 | elg | right |
| 16:23.35 | elg | but I happen to think shell scripting is good for what it was designed for |
| 16:23.37 | elg | not best, but good |
| 16:24.10 | sjansen | To put things in context, I was surprised to discover that the default behavior of the read command is to corrupt user input. You must include -r to get the actual text typed by the user. |
| 16:24.12 | elg | sjansen: I agree. so you're advocating CGI or GUI? |
| 16:24.16 | sjansen | GUI |
| 16:24.42 | sjansen | I wouldn't consider CGI real world these days. Even BYU has moved away from it. |
| 16:24.49 | elg | :) |
| 16:25.25 | levi | elg: I think your opinion of shell scripting may be colored by your experience learning to work around its quirks. |
| 16:25.45 | levi | Kind of a programming version of Stockholm Syndrome, or whatever it's called. |
| 16:25.48 | elg | every DSL has quirks. the quirks keep it simply good, not great or best |
| 16:26.47 | levi | Well, judging by the number of times I see, "How do I do this trivial-sounding thing in shell?" on the mailing list, and then about 20 responses, about 3/4 of which break horribly in different situations... |
| 16:27.13 | elg | "trivial-sounding" doesn't imply trivial |
| 16:27.30 | elg | imagine writing it in C now. now how many ways would it break? |
| 16:27.34 | levi | If a DSL isn't making trivial-sounding things trivial, what's it good for? |
| 16:27.38 | elg | even ruby or python |
| 16:27.58 | elg | shell is by far the easiest way to get trivial-sounding (read nontrivial) scripting |
| 16:28.13 | elg | in spite of its lamentable quirks |
| 16:28.46 | elg | what's it good for? making truly-trivial things truly trivial. |
| 16:29.05 | levi | Only because no one has seen fit to replace it with something relatively sane. Except for scsh, and possibly other equally obscure things. |
| 16:29.08 | elg | piping two programs together is truly trivial, but a royal pain in most other languages |
| 16:29.22 | elg | i'm yet to be convinced that scsh is sane |
| 16:29.35 | elg | but yes, some day a sane replacement may surface. I'll be all over it |
| 16:29.49 | elg | assuming I find out about it ;-) |
| 16:29.51 | levi | What do you think is insane about scsh? |
| 16:30.05 | levi | The fact that it's written in Scheme? |
| 16:30.10 | elg | it trades the insanity of sh for the insanity of scheme |
| 16:30.25 | elg | that might be a good trade. when I get out of functional floundering I'll be able to make a judgement |
| 16:30.44 | levi | Scheme is incredibly sane. You don't even have to program functionally in it. |
| 16:30.54 | elg | mincing words |
| 16:31.14 | elg | i don't doubt scheme is sane, but I do wonder if it's syntactically sweet enough in the shell scripting domain |
| 16:31.29 | elg | ie whether its a good DSL for shell scripting |
| 16:31.31 | levi | Well, there's the crux of it. |
| 16:31.37 | elg | yup |
| 16:32.18 | levi | The semantics of Scheme can be given to a language that doesn't use s-exps. |
| 16:32.38 | sjansen | I love shell scripting, but I don't consider it sane. The more I learn its quirks, the more I realize most scripts are on a razors edge of luck that keeps them working. |
| 16:33.04 | levi | It would be interesting to see scsh's ideas ported to metalua or something. |
| 16:33.17 | sjansen | The interfaces are so loosely defined and coupled, that a "helpful" programmer can easily make a tiny change in an apps output an unless chaos. |
| 16:34.53 | elg | oops, sed cleanup on aisle sjansen! |
| 16:35.30 | levi | Heh. |
| 16:36.33 | levi | The sad fact is, almost no one programs to the real Unix API anymore. It's not the POSIX C functions, it's the stdin/stdout text formatting conventions that allow the shell tools to work. |
| 16:37.37 | levi | There was a missed opportunity to create a new kind of standard programmatic API. |
| 16:38.01 | levi | So we're doomed to minimally-scriptable systems now. |
| 16:39.04 | levi | Apple and Microsoft have standard apps that are more scriptable than Linux ones. :P |
| 16:39.46 | fozzmoo | Oh, the fun that is Zimbra. |
| 16:41.27 | ^Migs^ | fozzmo: I've been considering setting up a Zimbra server. Worth it? |
| 16:41.35 | fozzmoo | It's not a bad suite. |
| 16:41.43 | ^Migs^ | no, it looks pretty awesome, in fact |
| 16:41.59 | ^Migs^ | but if the backend is unmanageable, it's useless |
| 16:42.02 | fozzmoo | One thing I like is that it's, for the most part, a combination of other things like postfix, openldap, etc. |
| 16:42.14 | fozzmoo | Well, this morning, the boss says he can't get to his e-mail. |
| 16:42.38 | *** join/#utah fungus_ (n=olsonl@fungus.broker.freenet6.net) |
| 16:42.40 | fozzmoo | Zimbra was complaining about a "Network Service error." |
| 16:43.05 | fozzmoo | A little digging in the logs indicated there was an "offending" message that was causing problems. |
| 16:43.36 | fozzmoo | First thing I tried was setting up an IMAP client, logging in as his username and password, and trying to find the message so I could delete it |
| 16:43.40 | fozzmoo | THat didn't work. |
| 16:43.52 | fozzmoo | IMAP triggered errors too. |
| 16:44.08 | fozzmoo | The next thing I did was tried to find the offending message stored on the filesystem. |
| 16:44.13 | fozzmoo | I found it. Moved it out of the way. |
| 16:44.17 | fozzmoo | The errors persisted. |
| 16:44.34 | fozzmoo | Next, I looekd at MySQL |
| 16:44.50 | findlay | ooh, this is getting interesting |
| 16:44.55 | ^Migs^ | it is, actually |
| 16:46.45 | fozzmoo | Zimbra comes with its own MySQL database. |
| 16:46.53 | fozzmoo | Inside the zimbra database is a mailbox table. |
| 16:47.01 | fozzmoo | This stores information about every mailbox. |
| 16:47.05 | fozzmoo | Then, every mailbox has its own database. |
| 16:48.41 | fozzmoo | looks like it stores some summary data about every message |
| 16:49.05 | fozzmoo | I think the problem with this particular message was that the subject line was packed with a humongous string of garbage |
| 16:49.09 | ^Migs^ | wait, every mailbox has its own db? |
| 16:49.12 | elg | wait, what? each mailbox has its own db? |
| 16:49.13 | fozzmoo | yes. |
| 16:49.17 | fozzmoo | yes. |
| 16:49.18 | ^Migs^ | haha, elg |
| 16:49.24 | fozzmoo | Anybody else want to ask the same question? |
| 16:49.36 | ^Migs^ | let me get this straight...one db per mailbox? |
| 16:49.42 | Tene | Wait, so each mailbox has its own db? |
| 16:49.47 | fozzmoo | Tene: No. |
| 16:49.48 | ^Migs^ | I second Tene's question |
| 16:49.49 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 16:49.52 | ^Migs^ | is confused |
| 16:50.00 | levi | So you're saying each mailbox has its own db?!?! |
| 16:50.06 | fozzmoo | levi: Sure. |
| 16:50.06 | ^Migs^ | Zimbra uses MySQL? |
| 16:50.09 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 16:50.27 | fozzmoo | So, I Had to find the record in the mail_item table that corresponded to the offending message and delete it. |
| 16:50.34 | fozzmoo | Once I did that, the errors went away. |
| 16:50.48 | ^Migs^ | what a bunch of retarded nonsense |
| 16:51.11 | levi | So, did you guys get the letter from Qwest about the new area code? |
| 16:51.17 | ^Migs^ | Half my users pack humongous strings of garbage in the subjects as it is |
| 16:51.29 | ^Migs^ | most of them not realizing they're not typing in the Subject line when they type out their emails |
| 16:51.33 | fozzmoo | The actual messages themselves are stored by Postfix on the filesystem, so it's not a whhole lot different than a non-Zimbra install. |
| 16:51.36 | ^Migs^ | s/they're not/they're/ |
| 16:52.57 | ^Migs^ | that's gotta suck when you need to search multiple mailboxes' MySQL data |
| 16:54.10 | sjansen | Huh what? Zimbra creates a new db for each mailbox? |
| 16:54.39 | ^Migs^ | Yes, sjansen, Zimbra creates a new db for each mailbox |
| 16:54.58 | ^Migs^ | I find it baffling that Zimbra would create a new db for each mailbox |
| 16:55.47 | sjansen | Perhaps for isolation? Does it create a unique connection for each user connection? |
| 16:55.58 | ^Migs^ | I can see the reasons why they would |
| 16:56.01 | ^Migs^ | sort of |
| 16:56.13 | ^Migs^ | actually, no. I can't really. |
| 16:56.31 | goozbach | no wonder Zimbra is such a resource hog |
| 16:56.55 | sjansen | The choice of MySQL over Postgresql leads me to believe they're amateurs when it comes to databases, so maybe they didn't know how to write proper SQL queries with "where user =" clauses. ;-) |
| 16:57.00 | ^Migs^ | a simple db schema doesn't take up that much, but multiply that x10,000+ and it becomes a burden |
| 16:57.34 | fozzmoo | Now, I should mention this is a 2 year-old Zimbra install. |
| 16:57.50 | fozzmoo | A new Zimbra install may work... smarter. |
| 16:58.58 | ^Migs^ | but MySQL is new, hip, and "enterprisey" |
| 16:59.48 | fozzmoo | And "designed from the ground up for speed" |
| 16:59.50 | fozzmoo | gags |
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| 17:10.46 | findlay | heh |
| 17:11.10 | sjansen | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0865957/ <-- So wrong. So very, very wrong. |
| 17:11.41 | sjansen | And I hear they're remaking Bill & Ted's. No phone booth. |
| 17:12.00 | sjansen | What's next? "Gone With the Wind: New Orleans" ? |
| 17:13.03 | ^Migs^ | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1086064/ |
| 17:13.46 | rsimpkins | PLUG on Wed. Plan on coming. |
| 17:13.51 | ^Migs^ | by a couple of no-name writers |
| 17:14.07 | rsimpkins | Plan on PLUG. *blech* |
| 17:15.28 | synic | can anyone recommend a good SAN provider? |
| 17:15.37 | rsimpkins | synic: How big of SAN do you need? |
| 17:16.12 | synic | we need 10TB right *now*, but we'd like it to be scalable to much larger than that (obviously) |
| 17:16.25 | rsimpkins | how big do you think you'll get up to? |
| 17:17.11 | synic | hard to say. Depends on how business goes, but we never delete images, and we're always getting new ones |
| 17:17.43 | synic | 60? I have no idea. |
| 17:17.46 | rsimpkins | synic: Oh, this is unstructured data? |
| 17:17.48 | findlay | I can give you a couple of DVD+R's, they're 4.8 GiB each |
| 17:17.48 | goozbach | synic: NetApp |
| 17:17.57 | synic | findlay: sweet |
| 17:18.02 | findlay | synic: np |
| 17:18.03 | synic | rsimpkins: yeah, just images. |
| 17:18.10 | rsimpkins | synic: How big is the typical image? |
| 17:18.30 | synic | average is 1-2 MB |
| 17:18.45 | rsimpkins | synic: And why do you need a SAN, exactly? Will a NAS work for you? |
| 17:19.10 | rsimpkins | synic: How many client machines will you have? |
| 17:19.30 | rsimpkins | SAN vs. NAS is too big a scope for #utah maybe. |
| 17:19.46 | synic | sure, a NAS would work, as long as it's failsafe-(ish), can do backup snapshots, is scalable, and can give us 10TB right now. |
| 17:19.49 | rsimpkins | For that small of SAN I don't know who would be good. Probably almost anyeone. |
| 17:20.00 | synic | we have 4 webservers that will be accessing it right now |
| 17:20.06 | rsimpkins | synic: Do you have a budget of about $100k? |
| 17:20.19 | synic | yeah, or higher. |
| 17:21.03 | rsimpkins | Okay, give me a ring. I'll give you my recommendation. :) 722.7000 ext 1361 |
| 17:21.12 | synic | we were approved for a Compellent machine at $150k, but we're still looking around. |
| 17:21.23 | rsimpkins | synic: No, I have a much better choice for that kind of data. |
| 17:21.30 | synic | I'm calling right now. |
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| 17:34.13 | rsimpkins | synic: Did you e-mail me? |
| 17:34.30 | rsimpkins | Our blasted e-mail servers are so freakin' overloaded. |
| 17:34.53 | synic | yeah |
| 17:35.17 | rsimpkins | Cool, hopefully I get it some time this year. Soooo slow today. |
| 17:35.26 | synic | haha |
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| 17:46.03 | goozbach | grrrr!!! |
| 17:49.29 | Supaplex | ~growl |
| 17:49.30 | ibot | ACTION growls as loud as a storm and screams "I'LL CRUSH WHOEVER GETS IN MY WAY!!!" |
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| 17:55.16 | sjansen | ~placate goozbach |
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| 18:45.39 | Sargun | synic, 10TB is way too tiny for a SAN. |
| 18:45.50 | Sargun | just get two arrays, and two frontends. |
| 18:46.02 | Sargun | and multipath it. |
| 18:46.25 | Sargun | just do failover with like, hm... AoE |
| 18:53.20 | synic | sounds rather unscalable. |
| 19:01.58 | Sargun | it is |
| 19:02.20 | Sargun | but it works for the time being |
| 19:02.22 | Sargun | rather cheapy |
| 19:02.24 | Sargun | cheaply |
| 19:02.30 | Sargun | synic, you think you'll start at 10TB, and go how large in 1 year? |
| 19:03.11 | synic | we're currently at 6.7TB. We go there in a year and a half, but the company is growing. |
| 19:03.18 | synic | er.. got |
| 19:03.51 | Sargun | How much $ do you think you'll get for the project? |
| 19:04.16 | synic | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:04.20 | synic | $150k |
| 19:04.23 | synic | I can type, really. |
| 19:05.40 | Sargun | Hm |
| 19:05.41 | findlay | or did you just take the extra $1351 |
| 19:05.54 | synic | findlay: shut your face! |
| 19:05.55 | findlay | in that case, I need a few hundred thousand |
| 19:06.09 | findlay | heh |
| 19:06.25 | Sargun | synic, What brand are all your boxes? |
| 19:06.30 | Sargun | HP/IBM/Sun/Dell? |
| 19:06.34 | synic | supermicro. |
| 19:08.31 | Sargun | Ah |
| 19:09.57 | Sargun | http://www.panasas.com/ |
| 19:10.52 | Sargun | I've tried them out and I work with one of their X-Senior Engineers |
| 19:11.11 | Sargun | He left the company as he moved |
| 19:14.16 | Sargun | synic, its a decent platform |
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| 20:25.27 | sjansen | ~lart intel |
| 20:25.27 | ibot | whacks intel with a giant beaver's tail |
| 20:25.59 | sjansen | I'd trying to figure out what a mystery character is and where it came from. Intel's endian madness is not helping me. |
| 20:26.26 | elg | it's Ï |
| 20:26.36 | elg | it has to do with circles |
| 20:26.44 | elg | my hdhomerun is in new orleans |
| 20:32.19 | sjansen | Found it! U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN |
| 20:32.25 | elg | â ? |
| 20:32.33 | elg | no, I take that back |
| 20:32.37 | elg | nor is it â |
| 20:32.55 | elg | so I'm curious what you were searching in |
| 20:33.21 | elg | you know if you can bring it into vim you just position the cursor and hit ga |
| 20:34.01 | sjansen | elg: Not entirely true. Vim only showed me part of its hex value. |
| 20:34.55 | elg | mine says <Â> 173, Hex 00ad, Octal 25 |
| 20:35.03 | findlay | ~lart mstar |
| 20:35.03 | ibot | keeps mailing mstar free America Online CDs until he drowns |
| 20:35.07 | findlay | ~destroy mstar |
| 20:35.08 | ibot | no |
| 20:35.13 | findlay | ~vaporize mstar |
| 20:35.18 | eggyknap | ~destroy death star |
| 20:35.19 | ibot | no |
| 20:35.21 | eggyknap | Darn. |
| 20:35.24 | elg | maybe your fileencoding isn't right? |
| 20:35.26 | goozbach | there's something quite soothing about "select plug folder" -> "right click" -> "mark folder read" |
| 20:35.28 | sjansen | Yeah, I just retested and that time it worked. But I swear it didn't a couple minutes ago! |
| 20:35.47 | goozbach | Â |
| 20:35.48 | sjansen | Now the next question is, what the heck inserted a non-display character into my files? |
| 20:35.57 | elg | ~blame goozbach |
| 20:35.58 | ibot | ACTION blames goozbach (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 20:36.12 | sjansen | elg: That's entirely possible. He might have touched this file. |
| 20:36.20 | findlay | not only do they have hold music that will induce vomiting (and average wait time is ~20 minutes), but they screwed up my billing and then their customer support email refused my message |
| 20:36.23 | goozbach | sjansen: baz blame |
| 20:36.24 | elg | probably someone with a hyphenated surname |
| 20:36.48 | goozbach | to see for sure |
| 20:37.09 | elg | If I ever had a whim to hyphenate my last name, I'd use a soft hyphen for sure |
| 20:37.29 | elg | just to mess up sjansen |
| 20:41.10 | sjansen | Now the question is, what to replace it with. It's not a hyphen, it's not minus sign. Is it an en dash, em dash or quotation dash? |
| 20:41.34 | elg | context? |
| 20:41.38 | sjansen | considers punting and just using the made-up character on his keyboard |
| 20:42.01 | sjansen | Mostly "term - definition". |
| 20:42.42 | elg | why a nonprinting character there? |
| 20:43.00 | elg | # The soft hyphen (U+00AD) is used to indicate where a line may break, as in a compound word or between syllables. |
| 20:43.50 | sjansen | elg: No idea. I'm wondering if it's an old framemaker corruption, or maybe an acroread/evince/kpdf corruption. |
| 20:45.04 | elg | levi: is there a wild difference between the 1st and 2nd editions of SICP? |
| 20:45.19 | levi | elg: I'm not sure. Why do you ask? |
| 20:45.26 | elg | my library has the 1st |
| 20:45.29 | levi | Huh. |
| 20:45.38 | elg | or I could read the 2n on my laptop screen |
| 20:45.38 | levi | Well, the online text is 2nd edition. |
| 20:45.49 | levi | I have a print version of the 2nd edition. |
| 20:46.02 | levi | I think the video lectures go along with the 1st edition. |
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| 20:46.56 | elg | i also wonder if there's any important difference between EPL 1st and 2nd editions, which is the reverse situation |
| 20:47.08 | elg | (I have the 1st edition paper, and the library has the second edition e-book) |
| 20:47.38 | levi | I have 1st edition of EoPL, too. I think it actually covers more stuff, actually. |
| 20:48.13 | levi | IIRC, 2nd edition cut out a bit of theory, provided more infrastructure code for the assignments, etc. |
| 20:48.42 | levi | AFAIK, it didn't help, since undergrads still seem to hate it with a passion. |
| 20:49.17 | levi | tries to figure out what these magic numbers in this driver do. |
| 20:51.09 | elg | i don't remember hating the class, though I know many did |
| 20:51.24 | elg | in retrospect I hate it though. i feel cheated by that class |
| 20:51.32 | levi | Why's that? |
| 20:51.39 | ^Migs^ | I'm setting up a YouTube-like site, and I'm running into problems when too many users are uploading stuff, or videos are being encoded with mencoder. How can I tweak my system so each instance of mencoder doesn't hog 99% of the CPU? |
| 20:51.45 | elg | i went through the motions, got an A, even tried to pay attention |
| 20:52.27 | elg | and I came away with only a vague understanding of the concepts and an even vaguer understanding of scheme. they gave us too much boilerplate and handholding |
| 20:52.46 | tensai | ^Migs^: set mencoder to a lower priority with nice |
| 20:53.28 | elg | set up a transcoding queue and only run one mencoder instance (at lower priority) |
| 20:53.42 | levi | elg: I tend to agree, but I think a lot of people would just completely fail if it weren't for that. There seems to be a widespread refusal to learn Scheme after a certain point in CS education. |
| 20:54.28 | elg | that may be true |
| 20:54.41 | levi | I mean, by the time you're taking 300-level classes, you get feeling pretty confident that you know how to program. |
| 20:54.43 | elg | but I still consider it my biggest deficiency from my CS education at BYU |
| 20:54.53 | elg | it being programming language theory in general, not scheme skillz |
| 20:55.09 | ^Migs^ | Are there are Linux programs you know of offhand that would let me queue up multiple instances of mencoder? |
| 20:55.21 | levi | Yeah. It seems to be hard to motivate language theory, though. |
| 20:55.42 | ^Migs^ | a queue that only allows one instance might not be the best idea. Some moron could upload a 1TB movie |
| 20:55.59 | elg | ^Migs^: i don't imagine. but it wouldn't be hard to write a script (in language $X) to use a directory on the filesystem as a queue |
| 20:56.17 | ^Migs^ | probably not, no |
| 20:56.18 | elg | ^Migs^: that seems to be a separate concern |
| 20:56.35 | levi | There seem to be two approaches; the EoPL approach, where you use one language to implement various kinds of programming language semantics, and the 'survey of languages' approach where you write a few programs in a bunch of languages. |
| 20:56.39 | ^Migs^ | I don't want to hack this osTube script too much, though, because I have to upgrade it when updates come out |
| 20:56.47 | ^Migs^ | yes, it is a separate concern |
| 20:57.00 | elg | hmm, EoPL has a new edition (pre-order) |
| 20:57.04 | elg | April 30 |
| 20:57.07 | elg | http://www.amazon.com/Essentials-Programming-Languages-Daniel-Friedman/dp/0262062798/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207601307&sr=8-2 |
| 20:57.36 | levi | I have a friend who went to IU and had Daniel Friedman and Douglas Hoftstader as professors. |
| 20:57.47 | sjansen | ^Migs^: For US$20k and 25% of your company I'll spend one month helping you improve the code. ;-) |
| 20:58.15 | ^Migs^ | I don't think the government would let you take 25% of the school district |
| 20:58.29 | elg | i'm not yet convinced hofstader isn't just a smart windbag |
| 20:58.34 | ^Migs^ | that would certainly make headlines |
| 20:58.52 | elg | but I'm only at the near beginning of godel escher bach, so I'm basing it on an essay he wrote about music |
| 20:59.05 | elg | he may just be a windbag when it comes to music philosophy ;-) |
| 21:00.02 | levi | Heh. What essay are you referring to? |
| 21:00.08 | levi | One of his SciAm columns? |
| 21:00.43 | elg | i don't even remember, I have it here somewhere waiting to be blogged |
| 21:01.00 | elg | http://www.unc.edu/~mumukshu/gandhi/gandhi/hofstadter.htm |
| 21:01.41 | elg | this is funny http://www.amazon.com/Great-Career-Limiting-Annoy-Colleagues/lm/1VWGLN12IZW6O/ref=cm_lmt_dtpa_f_2_rdi1i10?pf_rd_p=253462201&pf_rd_s=listmania-center&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0262062798&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1Q216FTKFDPJ7W5ZNXW7 |
| 21:01.51 | elg | "This book ended my lucrative career as a Java programmer, and cast me down from my tropical paradise into the land of eternal night - in the best possible sense." (an erlang book) |
| 21:01.55 | sjansen | Anyone know a good program for detecting file encoding? enca is starting to drive me batty. |
| 21:02.06 | elg | vim? ;-) |
| 21:02.08 | elg | what about file? |
| 21:02.16 | goozbach | sjansen: file? |
| 21:02.24 | mrpull | file? |
| 21:02.37 | sjansen | file only reports encoding for text files, not xml files |
| 21:02.45 | sjansen | stupid, I know |
| 21:03.37 | goozbach | it understands magic numbers, no? |
| 21:04.26 | elg | levi: i also have access to haskell craft of functional programming. any thoughts? |
| 21:05.27 | levi | Don't know anything about that book. |
| 21:05.40 | levi | What are your thoughts on the hofstadter piece? |
| 21:07.51 | levi | |Deterministic finite automations die at the end of this edition, and the last word is "lambda." |
| 21:08.06 | elg | that his little bubble is too easily burst. I just don't get how he can base his whole concept of beauty on this wacky idea that it should be impossible for computers to make pretty music |
| 21:09.38 | elg | i mean, I'd expect a rigorous philosopher like that to understand that music is at its core some sounds happening in a specific order. it's enumerable |
| 21:09.47 | elg | someone who wrote a whole book on computability theory, even |
| 21:10.15 | elg | if some computer stumbles upon one of those pretty melodies, why should that signal the apocalypse? |
| 21:11.14 | levi | Well, language is enumerable too, but that doesn't mean that randomly-generated text communicates human thought and emotion. |
| 21:11.44 | elg | no, not randomly-generated |
| 21:11.59 | ^Migs^ | unless you suffer from sufficiently random thoughts and emotions |
| 21:12.06 | elg | but there are rules of grammar, language, and music |
| 21:12.36 | elg | and if you get the semantic bit figured out, I wouldn't be surprised if the computer could suggest a more pleasant way to word paragraph X than whatever $NOVICE_WRITER came up with on the first draft |
| 21:13.33 | elg | anyway i can't argue any more in depth at the moment since I haven't read it in at least a year |
| 21:13.44 | elg | but that's my recollection of what was wrong with it |
| 21:13.50 | mrpull | it seems seeding a computer with "beautiful" music from the music genome project that it could mutate original "beautiful" music |
| 21:14.07 | elg | certainly that's what most musicians do |
| 21:14.11 | mrpull | I guess you could send it "ugly" music too |
| 21:14.22 | elg | i've sat through 2 years of music major classes |
| 21:14.46 | elg | so much of what they learn is how to imitate the masters and what patterns sound nice and what patterns sound bad |
| 21:15.12 | elg | and bach himself was very numerological so I hear |
| 21:15.24 | levi | Maybe Hofstadter is just sentimental in his old age. :P |
| 21:15.48 | levi | He's really into music and translation. |
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| 22:43.41 | goozbach | unicode and everything!!! |
| 23:03.16 | sontek | mecworks: are you going to be pushing gtk-sharp 2.12 to m:c ? |
| 23:03.55 | mecworks | sontek: I haven't got to it today yet. I hope to. |
| 23:09.01 | elg | elg is now known as elg-hungry |
| 23:09.28 | elg | jsmith is now known as jsmith-mugged |
| 23:09.33 | elg | elg is now known as elg-full |
| 23:10.10 | goozbach | sontek: were you able to commit saturday night? |
| 23:16.55 | elg | watches crazy biker guy go home |
| 23:17.04 | elg | he carries his bike up the stairs to his office |
| 23:17.09 | elg | and back down in the evening |
| 23:17.22 | elg | he wears full bike getup, which means he must change in and out of it (or look silly all day) |
| 23:19.58 | goozbach | elg: it's important to comfort to wear "full bike getup" |
| 23:20.01 | goozbach | honestly |
| 23:20.08 | goozbach | <- biker |
| 23:20.21 | elg | i believe you |
| 23:20.25 | goozbach | I commuted to work 5mi one way by bike in Tallahassee |
| 23:20.47 | elg | i think you qualify as a crazy biker guy :) |
| 23:21.24 | elg | I have on occasion ridden 2-5 mi to work on a bike (including a few times as a teenager on a rather BMXish track alongside the railroad tracks) |
| 23:22.24 | goozbach | I was "crazy biker guy" |
| 23:22.26 | goozbach | it was fun |
| 23:22.49 | goozbach | Tallahassee has an entire network of backwoods trails |
| 23:23.17 | goozbach | you can get from one end of the city to another without your wheels ever touching asphalt if you wanted to. |
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