| 00:33.13 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 01:21.04 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 01:47.22 | *** join/#utah sargun_screen (i=nobody@xbmodder.us) |
| 01:54.14 | encryptz | anyone using bitlbee with jabber? |
| 02:32.18 | goozbach | encryptz: yup |
| 02:32.36 | encryptz | goozbach: does bitlbee keep track of each resoure in 'blist all'? |
| 02:33.02 | goozbach | looks like it |
| 02:33.02 | encryptz | if not, how do you have it set? i have like 3 of just about ever account, because they used a different resource |
| 02:33.31 | goozbach | I just added the accounts |
| 02:34.34 | tensai | has anybody received their dtv coupons yet? |
| 02:36.04 | encryptz | ahh. it seems the 1.2 update fixes it |
| 02:45.17 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 02:45.17 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 02:45.53 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 02:45.53 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 03:29.52 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 03:29.52 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 03:33.54 | *** join/#utah markl__ (n=mark@c-24-10-221-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:55.13 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 03:55.13 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 03:58.29 | nick125 | Anyone here know the difference between posixGroup and GroupOfNames in OpenLDAP? |
| 03:59.48 | nick125 | all I can find is flamewars. |
| 04:02.03 | RedHeron | nick125: Read the source? ;-) |
| 04:02.44 | nick125 | They appear to serve the same purpose in a similar way. |
| 04:03.08 | RedHeron | One is specific to posix and the other...? |
| 04:03.24 | RedHeron | doesn't use LDAP a lot. |
| 04:14.31 | *** join/#utah tyce (n=tyce@72.8.87.222) |
| 04:19.29 | levi | Good evening. |
| 04:20.17 | findlay | oh, sure |
| 04:20.34 | levi | nick125: I would guess (and it's just a guess) that posixGroup is supposed to correspond to the groups in /etc/group, and GroupOfNames is a generic way to make groups. |
| 04:20.46 | levi | But I haven't looked at ldap in years. |
| 04:20.54 | findlay | I practiced today and my arm kept cramping up |
| 04:31.56 | findlay | I think it will be a little better next time |
| 04:55.25 | levi | What did you practice? |
| 04:58.01 | Supaplex | perfection |
| 05:00.45 | levi | I don't need to practice that anymore, it just comes naturally. :P |
| 05:07.52 | findlay | I played through a Carl Fleisch scale set until I got each one 3 times perfect and then I rambled through the Bach unaccompanied suites |
| 05:09.12 | findlay | ~random |
| 05:09.29 | findlay | ~entertain sargun_screen |
| 05:09.30 | ibot | ACTION shows sargun_screen a magic trick while tap diving |
| 05:09.41 | findlay | oooh, tap diving |
| 05:09.47 | findlay | -movietitle |
| 05:16.51 | *** join/#utah Sargun (i=nobody@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 05:36.34 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (n=carrus85@216.83.145.38) |
| 05:46.13 | *** join/#utah etahhhh (n=etah52@c-24-10-163-135.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:47.51 | findlay | you guys are boring |
| 05:48.26 | findlay | what are you going to do about it? |
| 05:49.53 | Sargun | ~lart findlay |
| 05:49.53 | ibot | moos at findlay |
| 05:49.54 | Sargun | that. |
| 05:55.39 | levi | I'm listening to the soundtrack to 'Control' |
| 05:55.51 | levi | Which is a movie about Ian Curtis and Joy Division. |
| 05:55.57 | findlay | is that a programming language? |
| 05:56.06 | findlay | with an album?> |
| 05:56.12 | levi | Joy Division was a band. |
| 05:56.26 | findlay | based on lisp |
| 05:56.26 | levi | Then Ian Curtis killed himself, and the rest of them formed New Order. |
| 05:59.03 | levi | Joy Division was the awesomest post-punk band of the late 70s. Doing covers of their songs is like a rite of passage for cool rockers. |
| 05:59.25 | levi | I'm sure you wouldn't like them, though. |
| 06:09.19 | levi | Hah, Dell Schanze is shilling for Money Train title loans now to fund his Gubernatorial campaign. |
| 06:19.53 | levi | http://www.joydiv.org/covers.htm |
| 06:20.03 | levi | A list of covers of Joy Division songs. |
| 06:20.36 | levi | The vast majority are 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' of course. |
| 06:27.38 | levi | Oh, awesome, this album has Kraftwerk's 'Autobahn' on it. |
| 06:40.09 | levi | Everyone must have gone to sleep. I'm talking to myself. |
| 06:41.24 | Supaplex | SHHHHH! |
| 07:33.13 | sontek | hi |
| 08:48.48 | *** join/#utah ToadStule (n=stevej@dufus.jibson.com) |
| 08:48.58 | *** part/#utah ToadStule (n=stevej@dufus.jibson.com) |
| 11:39.39 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=redbeard@mail.umbctrainingcenters.com) |
| 13:07.10 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@adsl-232-12-184.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 13:07.10 | *** mode/#utah [+v emcnabb] by ChanServ |
| 13:33.48 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 13:33.48 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 14:11.57 | ^Migs^ | there's very few comments on Dell Schanze's blog. That alone should be a hint. |
| 14:13.07 | Supaplex | metaquote "People must really hate me, I better have two guns" |
| 14:22.10 | goozbach | so who here is running for office? |
| 14:22.36 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:22.58 | goozbach | all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy |
| 14:26.09 | *** join/#utah tripzer1 (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 14:30.56 | Supaplex | which office? |
| 14:33.27 | goozbach | State senate? |
| 14:33.31 | goozbach | or Governer |
| 14:33.32 | goozbach | or |
| 14:36.34 | goozbach | http://elections.utah.gov/2008Candidates.htm |
| 14:36.44 | goozbach | it's Lamont |
| 14:36.56 | goozbach | Peregrine |
| 14:43.19 | encryptz | superdell reminds me of timecube.com |
| 14:44.05 | tripzero | it'd be hard to beat huntsman |
| 14:44.15 | tripzero | i think generally people like him |
| 14:44.27 | tripzero | too many people think "superdell" is a joke |
| 14:45.06 | tripzero | On another topic, we need someone to fight DRM |
| 14:48.13 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@fungus.broker.freenet6.net) |
| 14:48.39 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 14:50.36 | Supaplex | ~stab DRM |
| 14:50.37 | ibot | ACTION runs at DRM with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
| 14:51.24 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@70.1.135.7) |
| 14:51.24 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 14:58.48 | *** join/#utah dmdavis (n=dmdavis@67.214.225.122) |
| 15:00.40 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com) |
| 15:04.22 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | | UTOSC 2008 Call for Papers @ http://2008.utosc.com | Home of cold fusion. |
| 15:08.42 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=brasto@166.70.44.49) |
| 15:29.09 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.192.94) |
| 15:39.31 | sjansen | http://kotaku.com/370312/thompson-sanctioned-by-florida-supreme-court |
| 15:39.40 | goozbach | the googles, they do nothing!!! |
| 15:39.55 | goozbach | don't you hate it when you can't find what you are looking for in google? |
| 15:40.52 | Jayce^ | the magic card? |
| 15:41.10 | goozbach | I was trying to find the internet forum thread which discussed a fight between a bear and a shark |
| 15:43.15 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 15:45.21 | *** join/#utah tripzer2 (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 15:45.48 | elg | so who is that lawyer an why is he more evil than the others? |
| 15:48.56 | dataw0lf | elg: he's the guy whose eye gets blackened every time he tries to censor the video game companies |
| 15:49.04 | dataw0lf | sensationalist, basically |
| 16:02.58 | sjansen | He's an incredibly insensitive, opportunistic, self-appointed defender of America's morals. Facts are no obstacle when he's searching for another crime to blame on video games and rap music. |
| 16:03.31 | sjansen | Of course, if he ever finds out I said that, he'll probably sue me. That's the kinda guy he is. |
| 16:05.26 | sjansen | http://kotaku.com/gaming/virginia-tech/breaking-idiot-thompson-blames-va-shooting-on-games-252702.php <-- Just one example. |
| 16:06.21 | Supaplex | how many lamers blame their driving on racing games? |
| 16:20.12 | elg | 1 in 5 |
| 16:22.05 | *** join/#utah synic (n=squish@pdpc/supporter/student/synic) |
| 16:26.52 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 16:28.41 | sjansen | ~surprise thaddeusq |
| 16:28.56 | sjansen | ~ignore me |
| 16:28.56 | ibot | ACTION sticks her fingers in her ears. "La, la, la! I can't hear you, sjansen!" |
| 16:29.12 | sjansen | Oh, sure, fine, _now_ you do what I ask. |
| 16:40.07 | *** join/#utah hagna (n=hagna@70.102.57.178) |
| 16:40.16 | hagna | anyone take cs470 recently? |
| 16:48.18 | *** join/#utah tripzero (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 16:55.31 | sjansen | has flashbacks to Spy Hunter |
| 16:55.57 | RyanE | it never caused me to bump motorcycles off the road... |
| 16:58.06 | *** join/#utah Migs (n=Migs@72-254-17-63.client.stsn.net) |
| 16:58.59 | Migs | I'm trying to figure out a scrambled word puzzle, and two words (could be more than one word) are stumping me, and online descramblers aren't helping: tdpiiyurovt and igpisoivnvnro |
| 16:59.40 | elg | write your own descrambler brute force using /usr/share/dict |
| 16:59.45 | Migs | the words are supposed to be identity and security management related |
| 17:00.04 | elg | have you ever thought they might be unscrambled acronyms? |
| 17:00.07 | Migs | I don't have time. I have to turn it in, in one hour or I don't win a prize |
| 17:00.15 | Migs | hmm, that's possible |
| 17:00.22 | elg | you could write it in 10 minutes |
| 17:00.28 | elg | with a decent scripting language |
| 17:00.37 | Migs | k i'll write it in PHP |
| 17:00.39 | Migs | ;) |
| 17:01.22 | Migs | at first I thought the second one was "provisioning" |
| 17:01.27 | Migs | but two "v"s |
| 17:01.37 | elg | maybe that's a typo |
| 17:01.39 | Migs | it might be |
| 17:02.15 | Migs | no clue on the first one |
| 17:05.16 | goozbach | herlo: you done anything with cobbler and debian? |
| 17:06.32 | *** join/#utah Sargun (i=nobody@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 17:07.36 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 17:22.25 | encryptz | goozbach: herlo? debian? has hell frozen over? ã |
| 17:22.35 | encryptz | oh wait, that's sjansen |
| 17:22.39 | *** join/#utah tripzero (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 17:23.09 | sontek | herlo is n00b! |
| 17:23.28 | Jayce^ | true dat |
| 17:24.07 | synic | http://www.echoradio.org/~nait_sirhc/trudat.jpg |
| 17:24.24 | Jayce^ | nice |
| 17:29.56 | Migs | wtf, I just checked two whole glossaries of security terms, and couldn't find anything matching that first word |
| 17:30.03 | Migs | the second one has to be provisioning + typo |
| 17:33.12 | hagna | anyone take cs470 recently? |
| 17:34.22 | levi | hagna: What's cs470? |
| 17:34.32 | hagna | a class |
| 17:34.46 | hagna | at byu |
| 17:34.55 | encryptz | what class? |
| 17:35.04 | hagna | ai class |
| 17:35.17 | levi | I've taken an ai class, but not at BYU. |
| 17:35.24 | hagna | ok |
| 17:35.28 | levi | Are they still making you write bzflag bots? |
| 17:35.35 | hagna | looks like it |
| 17:36.33 | hagna | I'm not taking it just considering it |
| 17:37.09 | levi | I wrote an 8-puzzle solver, a chess-playing program, an implementation of first-order logic resolution, a genetic algorithm solution to the knapsack problem, and a simple character recognizer based on neural nets. |
| 17:37.51 | hagna | what language? |
| 17:38.06 | levi | (actually something like 6-7 versions of the 8-puzzle solver using different search techniques) |
| 17:38.17 | levi | I used OCaml for most of them. |
| 17:38.24 | hagna | cool |
| 17:38.42 | eggyknap | needs to learn a functional language one day |
| 17:38.43 | levi | But we could use whatever we wanted, except the Chess program had to integrate with a .NET framework. |
| 17:38.59 | levi | This was in the UVSC AI class. |
| 17:39.20 | levi | It was one of the most fun programming classes I've taken. |
| 17:39.34 | hagna | wow that's a nice reaction |
| 17:39.52 | levi | What's a nice reaction to what? |
| 17:39.56 | hagna | did you have a good teacher? |
| 17:40.02 | hagna | that you liked it |
| 17:40.43 | levi | He was a bit disorganized, but he gave us cool stuff to do and we had a good textbook. :) |
| 17:41.09 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 17:41.09 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 17:41.24 | hagna | levi: what textbook was it? |
| 17:41.38 | levi | Russel&Norvig |
| 17:41.49 | hagna | 470 uses http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ |
| 17:41.54 | levi | Yeah, that one. |
| 17:41.56 | hagna | oh |
| 17:42.25 | encryptz | Migs: when you find out the answers to your angrams, i'd be curious as to how they compare to what i came up with |
| 17:42.25 | levi | Norvig is a bigshot at Google now. |
| 17:44.49 | levi | I actually wrote the first-order logic resolver in scheme (mzscheme, specifically), the genetic algorithm program in Scala, and the character recognizer in F# (which is the .net version of Ocaml). |
| 17:46.42 | hagna | levi: heh |
| 17:46.58 | hagna | sheesh seems silly to limit it to bzflag |
| 17:47.40 | encryptz | i guess we'll never know |
| 18:00.04 | encryptz | well, i came up with, tdpiiyurovt: id try out vip, and igpisoivnvnro: proving vision |
| 18:00.28 | encryptz | they don't make much sense from a security standpoint, but they use up all the letters. ã |
| 18:03.10 | encryptz | hmmm. maybe 'vip' is an acronym for the 2nd anagram |
| 18:06.00 | *** join/#utah tripzero (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 18:16.57 | hagna | levi can I find that classes syllabus online? |
| 18:17.10 | hagna | uh class;s |
| 18:25.36 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@65.48.77.206) |
| 18:31.07 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 18:31.07 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 18:55.40 | *** join/#utah herlo (n=clints@166-70-63-209.ip.xmission.com) |
| 18:55.40 | *** mode/#utah [+v herlo] by ChanServ |
| 19:07.44 | levi | hagna: Like I said, he was kind of disorganized. If there was anything online, it's all tied up in webct or something. |
| 19:13.58 | elg | hagna: limit to bzflag? what do you mean? |
| 19:14.26 | levi | elg: He's talking about the BYU AI class. |
| 19:15.08 | elg | yah |
| 19:15.09 | levi | I don't know what else they do besides the bzflag bot. I'd hope there was something. |
| 19:15.32 | elg | i took it before bzflag. we used another capture the flag game though, so it's probably similar |
| 19:15.54 | elg | we weren't limited in any sense of the word. some labs were completely unrelated (path finding in a maze for example) |
| 19:16.04 | elg | some homeworks weren't even programming |
| 19:16.38 | elg | you have to apply the principles in a program somehow, and i don't see how using bzflag or any other framework for a programming lab is in any way limiting |
| 19:16.49 | elg | plus it's a whole lot o' fun :) |
| 19:16.54 | hagna | elg: not super limiting |
| 19:17.07 | elg | not at all limiting |
| 19:17.11 | levi | Well, a real-time game kind of limits the sorts of approaches you can take. |
| 19:17.25 | elg | and a non-realtime game limits them in the other way |
| 19:17.27 | hagna | elg: you have to use c |
| 19:17.29 | elg | you have to decide on something |
| 19:17.33 | elg | nonsense |
| 19:17.36 | hagna | no? |
| 19:17.41 | elg | why should you? |
| 19:17.48 | hagna | that's what the syllabus says |
| 19:17.53 | hagna | c/c++ |
| 19:18.07 | hagna | elg: who was your teacher/ |
| 19:18.08 | hagna | ? |
| 19:18.15 | elg | I set out to get a google SoC thing last year by making a framework where you can use whatever language you want to do bzflag AIs |
| 19:18.26 | elg | only to find amcnabb had already done it for cs470 |
| 19:18.31 | hagna | hehe |
| 19:18.35 | elg | i'm simplifying the situation slightly |
| 19:18.38 | elg | seppi |
| 19:18.56 | hagna | was he a good teacher? |
| 19:19.02 | levi | I did my chess program in Ocaml, and I had to go through some fairly elaborate hoops to get it to hook up to the .NET framework it had to run in. |
| 19:19.03 | elg | anyway, which language you use is irrelevant to what you learn about AI. you might be annoyed at the prof if he makes you use language X |
| 19:19.05 | elg | yeah, excellent |
| 19:19.37 | elg | who's teaching the syllabus you're reading? |
| 19:19.37 | hagna | elg: can you compare him to someone I've had like sederberg or snell? |
| 19:19.42 | levi | elg: What sort of AI principles did you apply to your bzflag bot? |
| 19:19.44 | hagna | seppi |
| 19:19.58 | *** join/#utah tripzero (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 19:20.08 | elg | i bet seppi would let you do it in another language if you knew how and asked him |
| 19:20.14 | elg | i did mine in ruby |
| 19:20.22 | hagna | http://aml.cs.byu.edu/~kseppi/cs470sp07wiki/index.php/Syllabus |
| 19:20.43 | hagna | language isn't a huge issue |
| 19:20.47 | elg | when I took it, there was a history of doing it with this other ctf thing |
| 19:20.54 | elg | seppi was teaching it for the first time |
| 19:21.32 | elg | at the end he said he wished there was a little less emphasis on that realtime game, since you can only explore so many aspects of AI in a realtime game |
| 19:22.02 | levi | That's what motivated my earlier comment. |
| 19:22.08 | elg | so it's likely he's made some adjustments to make things more balanced |
| 19:22.12 | elg | but I don't know |
| 19:22.46 | elg | we did do several labs that were unrelated, though because of the scope of the game and tournament we obviously tried to do everything that made sense within the game framework |
| 19:23.10 | elg | i don't feel like it detracted from the other AI areas, though I agreed with his balancing sentiment |
| 19:24.08 | hagna | elg: was it as hard as that operating systems class? |
| 19:24.43 | elg | i had that stupid operating systems class from seamons. i hated everything about it |
| 19:24.56 | levi | elg: Did you have to write the FAT filesystem? |
| 19:25.22 | elg | though if you don't tell anyone, I guess I'll admit that implementing fat and the virtual memory stuff was fun. it was just that I had to do it in visual studio and that seamons was lousy |
| 19:25.22 | hagna | levi: I did |
| 19:25.31 | elg | I liked seamons when I took security from him though |
| 19:25.44 | elg | and that text book. ugh |
| 19:25.50 | levi | elg: Which text book? |
| 19:26.17 | elg | anyway, 470 was fun, and we spent a lot of time coding for it, so it's hard to say if it was "hard" |
| 19:26.24 | elg | if you know what I mean |
| 19:26.44 | levi | elg: I'm still curious what AI techniques you used in your bzflag bot. |
| 19:27.05 | elg | well, it was a 2d ctf game, not bzflag, but... |
| 19:27.20 | elg | i'm trying to remember really, but due to the percepts we were given there was a lot of search involved |
| 19:27.30 | elg | A* and whatnot. trying to find the other flag and/or team |
| 19:27.43 | elg | guessing where people were that you couldn't see at any time |
| 19:27.50 | elg | (limited distance of vision) |
| 19:27.58 | elg | s/vision/radar/ |
| 19:28.09 | elg | coordinating your team so you could unfreeze people |
| 19:28.31 | elg | or make team ploys |
| 19:28.45 | elg | figuring out strategies that would be generally useful against various opponents |
| 19:29.33 | levi | So there was a lot of ad-hoc strategy heuristic stuff informing a search tree? |
| 19:30.42 | elg | ya |
| 19:31.23 | elg | i don't remember a whole lot now about what specific strategies we used, but i remember a lot of effort in searching, coordination, representation of information, |
| 19:31.40 | elg | and like I said several standalone labs |
| 19:32.17 | levi | Our big chess tournament was right in the middle of our class, and it was only emphasized a little more than the other segments. |
| 19:32.19 | elg | there was a bit of emphasis at the beginning about potential fields, which is arguably not really AI, but fairly important for good bots |
| 19:32.41 | elg | our tournament was at the end, and was a total disaster because our TA sucked |
| 19:32.45 | elg | but we had fun anyway |
| 19:33.04 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=Migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 19:34.38 | elg | as for comparing seppi to sederberg (didn't have snell), I liked them both |
| 19:34.46 | levi | I probably spent the most time after the chess program on my first-order logic resolution program. |
| 19:35.03 | levi | It was pretty awesome, though. |
| 19:38.46 | elg | of course, one class is hardly enough to cover all of AI well, even when you break out machine learning like byu does |
| 19:39.13 | levi | I was really happy with my UVSC AI class. |
| 19:39.51 | sjansen | did the OS class on Linux. |
| 19:40.10 | hagna | sjansen: wha? |
| 19:40.19 | ^Migs^ | unless it's one giant superclass |
| 19:40.24 | levi | There was enough meat in the programming assignments to really cement the theory, and there was the fun element of competition with the chess programs, and elsewhere in comparing speed of programs. |
| 19:40.28 | hagna | sjansen: the worst part was the MFC programming |
| 19:40.40 | sjansen | After testing out of the Pascal class early freshman year, and doing the EE class with the crappy circuit simulator, I never had to touch Windows again at BYU. |
| 19:40.56 | levi | My 8-puzzle solver was awesome. |
| 19:41.14 | sjansen | hagna: *shrug* Sucks to be you. I got to write a basic process scheduler for the Linux kernel as part of my OS class at BYU. |
| 19:41.39 | levi | The OS class I'm in now uses GeekOS. |
| 19:41.40 | elg | yeah, that made the sting of that stupid class even worse, when my friends all got to do it in linux a year later :-P |
| 19:41.46 | hagna | sjansen: I had cornell |
| 19:42.07 | elg | i wouldn't have minded doing windows-based stuff, so much, it was doing gratuitous MFC guis that made it unbearable |
| 19:42.08 | sjansen | I don't remember who I had. He was incompetent. |
| 19:42.40 | sjansen | s/was/wan't/ |
| 19:42.44 | ^Migs^ | btw, that scrambled word was "productivity." It was missing the "c." And I didn't get a prize, because they ran out. |
| 19:42.45 | sjansen | *sigh* |
| 19:42.53 | ^Migs^ | dumb Novell and their welfare conference |
| 19:43.45 | levi | My teacher is an adjunct guy who graduated not too long ago. He's a bit Wintel-centric in his thinking, and clearly and inexperienced teacher, but not terrible. |
| 19:43.59 | sjansen | We still had to do a FAT filesystem, but on Linux. They had a lousy Qt interface for testing our code, so I wrote a better GTK+ version. They continued to let students use it for a few years after. |
| 19:48.47 | ^Migs^ | I hated my Windows class |
| 19:48.59 | ^Migs^ | this was before C#, mind you |
| 19:49.15 | ^Migs^ | so it was basically just Visual C++. MFC is the most convoluted thing I've ever seen |
| 19:50.28 | hagna | how's mono these days |
| 19:51.46 | hagna | speaking of c# |
| 19:53.23 | sontek | the debugger just got 2.0 support so development in it is awesome |
| 19:53.30 | sontek | and monodevelop 1.0 was just released |
| 19:53.51 | sontek | 1.1 (which will be in 6 months or so) will have complete debugger integration |
| 19:55.07 | levi | So when's mono going to support C# 3.0, or whatever they're at now? ;) |
| 19:55.17 | tripzero | 3.5 |
| 19:55.18 | sontek | levi: they do support it |
| 19:55.28 | levi | How much of it? |
| 19:55.49 | tripzero | can I native compile > 1.0 ? |
| 19:56.42 | sontek | levi: They support lamdas, thats the only thing that changed in the language, everything else was just additional class libraries |
| 19:57.10 | levi | So the LINQ stuff is all libraries? I thought it had special syntactic support or something. |
| 19:57.27 | levi | Hey, cool, Squeak 3.10 is out. |
| 19:57.41 | sontek | levi: yeah, they support that too, I always forget about :P |
| 19:58.18 | sontek | levi: but mono isn't trying to keep up with .net, its not a race, they are trying to make a great cross platform development environment |
| 19:58.49 | levi | The fact that .net changes so much that it's a challenge to keep up is kind of distressing, anyway. |
| 19:58.58 | sontek | but when you compare the 20 developers mono has vs the hundreds that microsoft has, they are doing pretty good :P |
| 19:59.01 | *** join/#utah Sargun (i=nobody@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 19:59.13 | sontek | levi: yeah, there has been discussions in the microsoft world about that |
| 20:00.03 | sontek | levi: the .net developers are getting annoyed at how fast they are changing it |
| 20:00.14 | sontek | but I think its good, they are doing a lot of great work |
| 20:00.21 | sontek | and they'll have to run out of ideas some day ;) |
| 20:00.32 | levi | Nah, that's what Microsoft Research is for. ;) |
| 20:00.53 | levi | There's still the Spec# stuff to integrate. |
| 20:01.22 | Sargun | MSR is cool. |
| 20:02.21 | synic | alright, so how do you get a custom cloaked hostname in freenode? |
| 20:02.45 | sontek | synic: go into #freenode and ask nicely |
| 20:02.55 | synic | right |
| 20:02.55 | sontek | synic: usually by "donating" $5 :P |
| 20:03.13 | synic | well, I already donated. I just want something like exaile/developer/synic or something. |
| 20:03.18 | sontek | or depending on the cloak, if you want something to do with exaile, they will probably do it for you |
| 20:03.48 | synic | groovy, asking now. |
| 20:03.59 | sontek | http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml |
| 20:04.07 | sontek | you'll need to fill that out for exaile |
| 20:04.14 | sontek | and then anyone who is part of the group can get the cloak |
| 20:04.28 | synic | ah |
| 20:05.09 | sontek | synic: which reminds me, what version of gstreamer do you develop exaile for? |
| 20:05.19 | sontek | I set it up the other day and was getting a bunch of gstreamer errors |
| 20:05.34 | synic | 0.10.6 |
| 20:06.49 | levi | Tom Waits is awesome even when doing a dog food commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYOMPU18QjA |
| 20:07.53 | sontek | synic: http://rafb.net/p/6WMixV31.html |
| 20:10.14 | synic | looks like a problem with gstreamer itself, or maybe pygst |
| 20:13.02 | Sargun | import os; os.fork() |
| 20:19.35 | *** join/#utah maquis_ (n=maquis@c-24-17-72-165.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 20:21.19 | *** join/#utah maquis_ (n=maquis@c-24-17-72-165.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 20:21.32 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@68-27-212-41.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 20:21.32 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:22.04 | maquis_ | hmmm |
| 20:22.17 | *** mode/#utah [+v maquis] by ChanServ |
| 20:22.37 | ^Migs^ | indeed |
| 20:22.47 | maquis | sweet... amazon home page has a link to the kindle cake |
| 20:27.07 | *** join/#utah levi_ (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 20:51.52 | sontek | who knows a good roofer? |
| 20:52.24 | Supaplex | my dog's a good one. that's all he says. |
| 20:53.22 | thaddeusq | sontek: Rick Bangerter roofing |
| 20:53.43 | thaddeusq | they did a good job on replacing my shingles this past Nov. |
| 20:54.20 | ^Migs^ | hahahahaha |
| 20:54.24 | sontek | thaddeusq: thanks, i'll give them a call |
| 20:56.01 | levi_ | sontek: I've got a couple of bids for a new roof myself. I'll let you know in a month or two if the guy I end up picking is good. :) |
| 20:57.46 | fozzmoo | maquis: What's your take on kindle? |
| 20:59.15 | sontek | levi: nice =) |
| 20:59.48 | levi | So far one of the two bids is about $1000 less than the other. |
| 21:00.35 | findlay | I'll do your roof for $1000 more than both combined |
| 21:02.05 | findlay | someday I'll have a roof |
| 21:02.23 | findlay | and then I guess it will need to be 'done' |
| 21:03.00 | findlay | mabye I'll be like Supaplex and just let my dog do all of my roofing needs |
| 21:07.24 | sontek | synic: exaile is working =) |
| 21:07.35 | findlay | Supaplex: btw, I think that's QDB worthy |
| 21:10.03 | Supaplex | thanks :) |
| 21:16.13 | ^Migs^ | add it and I'll vote for it |
| 21:18.13 | synic | sontek: what did you do? |
| 21:23.04 | sontek | synic: openSUSE's package managemenet doesn't upgrade a currently installed package if a newer version is listed in a community repo |
| 21:23.21 | sontek | synic: but will install out of that community repo if the package isn't already installed |
| 21:23.29 | sontek | synic: so my gstreamer and my plugins were out of sync |
| 21:23.33 | synic | ah |
| 21:24.53 | sontek | synic: but it is saying: [15:24:37] You do not have the appropriate Gstreamer plugin installed to play this file: file:///home/sontek/Desktop/Lewis Black/[2006] The Carnegie Hall Performance (1of2)/(Lewis Black) - 01 - It's Just Not Right.mp3 |
| 21:25.03 | sontek | synic: even though I do have the correct ones to play mp3s |
| 21:25.13 | synic | which ones do you have? |
| 21:25.17 | sontek | synic: I have good, bad, and ugly |
| 21:25.26 | synic | weird |
| 21:25.34 | synic | it looks for "mad" |
| 21:26.13 | sontek | mad doesn't exist in openSUSE |
| 21:26.25 | sontek | ugly is where mp3s are (i'm 90% sure on that) |
| 21:26.57 | sjansen | sontek: rug? |
| 21:27.21 | ^Migs^ | ARGH |
| 21:27.22 | ^Migs^ | stupid computers |
| 21:27.28 | ^Migs^ | always doing exactly what you tell them to, rather than what they're SUPPOSED to do |
| 21:27.34 | sontek | sjansen: libzypp ( I used zypper, but yast does the samething 0 |
| 21:28.13 | sjansen | Sounds like a bug to me. But at least it isn't rug. |
| 21:29.14 | sontek | sjansen: I thought it was a bug, but its documented as how its supposed to work |
| 21:29.27 | sontek | that doesn't mean its the way it should, but its how they wanted it :P |
| 21:29.34 | sjansen | how annoying |
| 21:29.59 | sjansen | decides not to take another pot shot a SUSE and it's half-baked solutions |
| 21:30.00 | sontek | yeah, i'm waiting until 11 comes out because they've improved everything about libzypp |
| 21:30.04 | sjansen | Oops... |
| 21:30.05 | fozzmoo | has 22 packages left to update on his new laptop. |
| 21:30.10 | sontek | and if it still reacts like this i'm gonna dig into the code myself :P |
| 21:30.46 | sontek | sjansen: what I like abut suse is every decision is thought out, what I hate about them is sometimes the people doing the thinking were idiots |
| 21:31.28 | fozzmoo | what I don't like about SuSE is how everything is over-engineered and thought about too much. |
| 21:32.06 | sontek | Yeah, its getting better though |
| 21:33.02 | sjansen | You know, just last night, I started trying to remember what significant contributions SUSE has made recently. |
| 21:33.57 | sontek | outside of paid novell employees? |
| 21:34.11 | sjansen | Xgl? Poorly engineered but released before AIGLX. netapp? Hacked together, but released before NM. App Armor? I guess Ubuntu like it, but I think selinux is better. |
| 21:35.13 | sontek | Tomboy, Banshee, F-Spot, Gnome Main Menu, Compiz, Evolution, Open Office, etc |
| 21:35.37 | sontek | And those are just the apps I can think of that I use on a daily basis |
| 21:35.52 | sontek | They also employ a few kernel developers |
| 21:35.54 | sjansen | Has anyone else accepted Gnome Main Menu? |
| 21:36.18 | sontek | Not that I know of, but I love it |
| 21:36.26 | sontek | and i'm sure if others would love the option |
| 21:36.29 | sjansen | Their OOo work is pretty important. |
| 21:37.00 | sjansen | Most of the other stuff just seems to be riding on the coat tails of Ximian. |
| 21:37.02 | sontek | They also do a lot of GTK+ and Gnome work |
| 21:37.25 | sontek | yeah, a lot of it is, but you have to remember, buying ximian and suse is how they got into the Linux world |
| 21:37.36 | sontek | so, riding the coat tails was their plan |
| 21:38.22 | findlay | I don't use menus anymore |
| 21:38.30 | findlay | let alone *main* menus |
| 21:38.33 | RyanE | Yeah, I just ask the waiter what the specials are. |
| 21:38.44 | sontek | haha |
| 21:39.09 | sontek | findlay: we know, you are wired right into your computer, thats why you use gentoo! |
| 21:39.09 | findlay | no matter whatever SuSe-PoWeReD menu gnome wants to serve up I'll do my least to use it |
| 21:39.17 | sjansen | Oh I realize that. But it seems like most of their work is maintenance mode or copying .Net instead of pushing out into new tech. They've tried to create new tech, but most of it has been passed over for other options. |
| 21:40.19 | sontek | sjansen: Evolution has made a lot of improvements in the last 6 months, open office is coming out with opengl rendered animations, GNOME 2.22 is awesome |
| 21:40.52 | findlay | gnome: for all your 2.x desktop needs |
| 21:42.49 | findlay | easy to criticize gnome for not going anywhere merely by observing their 2.x fixation |
| 21:42.50 | sjansen | Novell can hardly take sole credit for Gnome 2.22. Evolution falls under maintenance. Most of the mono apps seem to have started as employee personal projects, not deliberate innovation by Novell. |
| 21:43.50 | sjansen | If you think Gnome hasn't gone anywhere, you've forgotten what 2.0 was like. They've made it _much_ nicer while maintaining ABI stability. That's quite the accomplishment. |
| 21:43.52 | findlay | sjansen: what's wrong with that? The same could be said for google, probably |
| 21:44.20 | sjansen | Novell almost could have claimed Hula, if they hadn't killed it. |
| 21:45.19 | sjansen | findlay: Yeah, but Google isn't trying to convince you to buy a support contract from them because their the Linux experts, is it? |
| 21:45.43 | sjansen | s/is it/are they |
| 21:45.52 | sontek | sjansen: yeah, but thats the point of the open source division, they give them innovation time off because they know their employees are talented enough to come up with cool stuff |
| 21:46.14 | findlay | ~buy sontek |
| 21:46.17 | findlay | ~buy sjansen |
| 21:46.30 | sontek | sjansen: have you seen gnome-do? That is an amazing application wrote in mono that is wrote by a person who is not a suse user or a novell employee |
| 21:46.41 | sjansen | I just look at all the tech that started with RH or Debian and found its way into other distros, and I don't see the same influence from SUSE lately. |
| 21:46.42 | sontek | sjansen: so mono is also a very good contribution |
| 21:47.19 | sontek | sjansen: I think SUSE beats out Debian and is comparable to RH |
| 21:48.04 | sjansen | I think you're talking user experience now, I'm talking new tech. |
| 21:48.41 | sjansen | I guess the SUSE builder server have an outside chance of becoming important if they do cross-distro build right... although that's a pretty tough nut to crack. |
| 21:48.58 | sontek | sjansen: what type of tech? |
| 21:49.48 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 21:49.48 | *** mode/#utah [+v elg] by ChanServ |
| 21:49.51 | sontek | sjansen: I think bringing a new development platform that has given apps like tomboy, banshee, f-sport, gnome-do, etc. is a pretty techy contribution |
| 21:49.52 | sjansen | selinux, aiglx, dbus, ... oh, hey, there's an important one for SUSE: inotify |
| 21:50.23 | sontek | yeah, they had bonobo which was good until dbus came out |
| 21:50.39 | sjansen | Yeah, but Mono is still controversial because the only thing Novell has really done to dispel the cloud of MS doom hanging over it is enter into an exclusive contract with MS. |
| 21:51.06 | sjansen | Again, bonobo wasn't SUSE. And I don't think it ever deserved to be called good. |
| 21:51.11 | sontek | I think the mono controversy is over, I think most people have accepted it |
| 21:51.27 | sontek | well... by good, I mean it filled a need, good shall be used lightly ;) |
| 21:51.46 | sontek | Those who haven't are bigots who never will |
| 21:51.53 | Supaplex | I can has 500M USD? |
| 21:52.26 | sontek | But tomboy and gnome-do are most likely going to be included in every popular distro in their next release |
| 21:52.34 | sontek | which says to me mono is accepted |
| 21:53.02 | sontek | but you are right, in that they haven't contributed as many building block libraries as they could be |
| 21:53.13 | sontek | but thats because they've been focusing on developing mono itself |
| 21:54.01 | sontek | But now with mono debugger fully supporting .net 2.0, and monodevelop 1.0 released, you'll be seeing mono apps popping up all over the place |
| 21:54.02 | sjansen | Even if I count mono, it's still just copying MS tech, not staking out new ground. |
| 21:54.21 | sontek | everything is copying ms tech :P |
| 21:54.30 | sontek | open office copied microsoft office |
| 21:54.44 | Sargun | OO.org improved |
| 21:55.00 | Sargun | sjansen, Mono does it better. |
| 21:55.20 | sontek | sjansen: but copy or not, its a great language and a great platform |
| 21:55.37 | sontek | sjansen: without all the mono apps, my desktop would be pretty empty |
| 21:55.38 | sjansen | True, Mono has more managed code, and I'd trust it to be more secure and correct than .Net |
| 21:56.03 | sjansen | Without mono my RAM feels more spacious. |
| 21:56.23 | levi | Without mono, I feel less tired. :P |
| 21:56.47 | sontek | sjansen: RAM is overrated! |
| 21:57.26 | sontek | sjansen: but mono has also been doing a lot of work on memory issues =) |
| 21:57.46 | sontek | sjansen: but I think a lot of Novell/SUSE's contributions are overlooked |
| 21:58.20 | sjansen | Which is why I'm trying to find out what I'm over looking. |
| 21:58.42 | sjansen | I guess my bias is to focus on server tech and ignore desktop tech. |
| 21:59.15 | Supaplex | I trust just about anything to be more secure and correct than .Net |
| 21:59.35 | sjansen | COM? |
| 21:59.55 | Supaplex | negatory |
| 21:59.59 | sjansen | gets()? |
| 22:00.13 | Supaplex | also negatory :P |
| 22:00.44 | sontek | sjansen: server side, RH has always done better, and I think its a section SUSE really lacks |
| 22:01.08 | sontek | sjansen: they do help maintain bugzilla ;) |
| 22:02.08 | sontek | and I hear groupwise/edirectory are good, I've never used them though |
| 22:02.21 | sjansen | Not F/OSS. Not interesting. |
| 22:02.34 | sontek | It runs on F/OSS |
| 22:02.58 | sontek | and for enterprise, if you don't want exchange/ad its your best option |
| 22:03.04 | sjansen | So does FreeIPA. May not be as secure, but it doesn't enslave me to a single corp. |
| 22:03.11 | sjansen | s/secure/mature/ |
| 22:03.51 | Supaplex | ~scare sjansen with vendor lock-in |
| 22:03.52 | ibot | ACTION puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at sjansen with vendor lock-in |
| 22:04.34 | sontek | sjansen: how well does freeIPA handle email and shared calendars? |
| 22:04.41 | sontek | sjansen: and can you push e-mail to mobile devices? |
| 22:05.19 | sjansen | Ah, missed the part about exchange. |
| 22:05.22 | sontek | This is actually the first time I've ever heard of it, but it makes sense since its a RH product :p |
| 22:06.07 | sontek | you can use openldap for the directory services |
| 22:06.42 | sjansen | Yeah, but openldap by itself does not an ad replacement make. |
| 22:07.03 | sontek | openldap + samba |
| 22:07.20 | sontek | then even windows machines can authenticate to it ;o |
| 22:07.20 | sjansen | samba 4, if it's ever "releases" |
| 22:07.35 | sontek | samba 4 will be released when duke nukem forever comes out |
| 22:08.01 | sjansen | Don't get wrong, I'm grateful the samba developers care deeple about correctness, but geez. |
| 22:08.41 | sontek | so with freeipa, do you know if windows machines can authenticate to it? |
| 22:09.02 | sontek | and what does fedora directory server do that openldap cant? |
| 22:10.02 | sjansen | Web UI, query and modify schema using standard LDAP, Certificate management (as of RH's announcement this week) |
| 22:10.30 | sontek | but there are hundreds of ldap tools to do querying |
| 22:10.41 | sjansen | multi-master, better scalability theoretically |
| 22:10.41 | sontek | so is fedora directory server a wrapper around openLDAP? |
| 22:11.29 | sjansen | OpenLDAP and FDS share a common ancestor |
| 22:12.30 | sontek | whats the plan for getting it packed to other distros (SUSE)? |
| 22:12.36 | sjansen | It's more closely related to Sun's Java Directory Server (or whatever their calling their version of iPlanet these days). |
| 22:13.21 | sjansen | *shrug* Depends on Novell's interest in providing a third competitor to eDirectory as part of the distro. |
| 22:14.10 | sontek | RH just has to submit it to the build service and its there =) |
| 22:15.07 | sontek | my interest is because we have active directory and exchange right now and have been researching a migration to linux |
| 22:15.08 | sjansen | Okay, depends on RH feeling a sudden urge to donate free engineering time packaging software for a competitor's platform. |
| 22:15.19 | sontek | and groupwise is the only thing we've found that could handle our needs |
| 22:15.24 | sontek | and all our servers are suse |
| 22:15.33 | sjansen | Sounds like a good fit to me. |
| 22:16.20 | sjansen | As in, if you have the budget and you're using SUSE, might as well go with groupwise. |
| 22:16.36 | sontek | well, if we can go free, we'd prefer it |
| 22:17.00 | sontek | and this is my first time hearing of freeIPA |
| 22:17.10 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:17.32 | levi | I'm having serious connection issues today. |
| 22:17.41 | sjansen | I pointed at FreeIPA for its potential. It's still too young to dedicate for me to feel comfortable recommending its immediate adoption. |
| 22:17.42 | sontek | sjansen: wanna start an exchange replacement with me?! |
| 22:18.00 | sjansen | ~wake sontek |
| 22:18.01 | ibot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on sontek and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 22:18.10 | sontek | haha |
| 22:18.16 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:18.32 | sontek | levi: get comcast! ;) |
| 22:24.18 | nick125 | bought a canon 430EX speedlite |
| 22:28.53 | sjansen | I need an excuse to use SUSE more often. Right now, I use Fedora for work, and Ubuntu for home. With 10.3, SUSE looks to be much less annoying.... maybe a home server... |
| 22:35.27 | *** join/#utah tripzero (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 22:35.45 | findlay | tripzero: did you find a fax service? |
| 22:38.02 | tripzero | no |
| 22:38.19 | findlay | I recommend metrofax |
| 22:38.21 | tripzero | i did't find any "free" ones |
| 22:38.25 | findlay | oh |
| 22:38.34 | findlay | well, my company uses them |
| 22:38.43 | tripzero | but I"ll probably have to go with a pay |
| 22:38.50 | tripzero | i'll take a look at metrofac |
| 22:38.53 | tripzero | fax* |
| 22:38.54 | findlay | almost everybody's about as expensive as efax, but metrofax is way cheaper |
| 22:39.03 | findlay | suprisingly |
| 22:40.08 | tripzero | :) |
| 22:40.11 | tripzero | likes cheap |
| 22:40.17 | tripzero | i only need it for like 2 faxes |
| 22:40.19 | tripzero | sadly |
| 22:40.23 | findlay | makes a huge difference if you do as many faxes as we do |
| 22:40.50 | tripzero | personally thinks fax should go the way of dialup |
| 22:42.07 | findlay | why can't you do scan+email or something? |
| 22:52.38 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 23:06.59 | vontrapp | mysql gurus, please tell me it ain't so |
| 23:07.27 | vontrapp | i see sum, avg, stddev, var, even variations on stddev |
| 23:07.35 | vontrapp | but no product?? |
| 23:07.59 | vontrapp | could that really be so? |
| 23:10.40 | nick125 | pets his speedlite 430EX....so awesome |
| 23:15.15 | vontrapp | no product? no multiply? |
| 23:16.57 | *** join/#utah pelaofeli1 (n=PelaoFel@67.108.236.230) |
| 23:18.58 | hagna | vontrapp: can it be hacked with avg? |
| 23:19.11 | vontrapp | doubt it |
| 23:19.32 | vontrapp | all i need is to multiply one or two numbers |
| 23:19.38 | vontrapp | and doing so using grouping |
| 23:19.45 | hagna | postgres=# select 2 * 2; |
| 23:19.50 | hagna | sorry |
| 23:19.57 | vontrapp | so like, product(foo) from bar group by baz; |
| 23:20.18 | vontrapp | so the x*y notation doesnt work |
| 23:20.20 | hagna | did you try #mysql |
| 23:20.26 | hagna | idk I'm on postgres |
| 23:31.36 | *** join/#utah tripzer2 (n=krees@reverse.control4.com) |
| 23:31.40 | vontrapp | i guess select group_concat with some eval could work |
| 23:35.23 | sontek | sjansen: use it for your home desktop! |
| 23:35.39 | *** join/#utah levi (n=levi@levi.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 23:37.12 | vontrapp | any eval in mysql? |
| 23:38.52 | sjansen | I don't have a home desktop. My laptop is powerful enough to do anything I could ever want. |
| 23:39.02 | beandog | vontrapp, explain? |
| 23:47.44 | levi | Man, what is going on with my DSL line tonight? |
| 23:47.57 | nick125 | levi: What's happening? |
| 23:48.06 | sontek | sjansen: home laptop! |
| 23:48.23 | levi | nick125: It dies occasionally for ~10 minutes or so, then returns. |
| 23:48.37 | sontek | sjansen: wait until 11 comes out and then give it a shot |
| 23:48.47 | sontek | sjansen: the big improve in 11 is zypp speed :D |
| 23:49.11 | nick125 | levi: Have you tried calling the phone company? |
| 23:49.18 | sontek | I feel so lazy, i'm just sitting in bed with my dogs eating pepperoni's |
| 23:49.40 | nick125 | levi: If you have a problem getting someone who speaks English at Qwest, ask them for an American agent. |
| 23:49.56 | nick125 | The American techs are usually pretty good. |
| 23:50.32 | sontek | sjansen: do you have to run fedora on the laptop you use to teach with? |
