| 00:04.16 | nick125 | LOL |
| 00:07.55 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: i give you an amen, brother |
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| 01:53.26 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 02:06.09 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (n=bmidgley@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
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| 02:47.58 | *** join/#utah mrpull-x (i=xmjake@xmission.xmission.com) |
| 03:02.06 | sontek | Sargun: don't do it! |
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| 03:11.46 | mrpull-x | 'evening |
| 03:13.53 | sontek | mrpull-x: evening |
| 03:13.56 | sontek | mrpull-x: hows your weekend? |
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| 03:21.38 | mrpull-x | going well... chillin' watching the NBA Slam Dunk Contest right now |
| 03:43.28 | findlay | Sargun: it never goes smoothly |
| 03:43.39 | findlay | duh, thought you'd know that by now |
| 03:43.47 | findlay | same for findlay's car |
| 03:47.00 | mrpull-x | i took my wife's car for safety inspection today |
| 03:47.13 | mrpull-x | stinking breaks pulled to one side 2.5% too much |
| 03:47.26 | mrpull-x | took it to the break shop and they told me to do nothing |
| 03:47.35 | mrpull-x | said test it till it passes |
| 03:47.48 | mrpull-x | i dunno if they even tested it when I went back |
| 03:47.51 | mrpull-x | but it passed |
| 03:48.02 | mrpull-x | my car needs front brakes |
| 03:48.08 | mrpull-x | that's easy enough |
| 03:48.37 | mrpull-x | it was nice that the renewal online site already had my test info |
| 03:48.49 | mrpull-x | just had to key in my plate number and CC info |
| 03:49.29 | findlay | ~dat4 |
| 03:49.31 | findlay | ~date |
| 03:49.32 | ibot | It is now 2008.02.17 3:49:32 GMT |
| 03:49.35 | findlay | hm |
| 03:51.25 | mrpull-x | dang Howard can DUNK |
| 03:51.34 | mrpull-x | best contest in years |
| 03:55.29 | Sargun | lakshmi, I'm still working. |
| 03:55.33 | Sargun | Crap happened |
| 03:55.42 | Sargun | Stupid Cisco equipment will not work |
| 03:55.57 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Better upgrade to some of that new smart Cisco equipment. |
| 03:56.40 | lakshmi | Sargun well, you should find things that work soon. |
| 03:59.15 | findlay | Sargun: told you |
| 04:03.25 | fozzmoo | findlay: What's your problem? |
| 04:04.11 | herlo | fozzmoo: don't get him started |
| 04:04.23 | fozzmoo | findlay: With your car. |
| 04:04.37 | herlo | hehe |
| 04:04.43 | findlay | herlo: you know my problems ... |
| 04:04.53 | herlo | findlay: no, I don't and I don't wanna know |
| 04:05.10 | findlay | fozzmoo: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.subaru/browse_thread/thread/aa16098ef6c78c03/91c47fe087881915?hl=en#91c47fe087881915 |
| 04:05.56 | fozzmoo | findlay: That sounds familiar to be for some reason. |
| 04:06.19 | findlay | herlo: don't pretend like you haven't mocked my superciliousness in high amusement |
| 04:06.21 | fozzmoo | Like I had that problem w/ my 84 DL. |
| 04:06.35 | herlo | findlay: its true |
| 04:06.36 | findlay | fozzmoo: how did it turn out? |
| 04:06.42 | fozzmoo | I'm trying to remember. |
| 04:07.02 | fozzmoo | I think it was something stupid like I ran the clutch cable under the steering column when i should have run it over. |
| 04:07.34 | findlay | I hope it's something like that |
| 04:07.38 | levi | So, I know there are places where you can buy essays and book reports and stuff. How about a site where you can buy LDS sacrament meeting talks? |
| 04:07.50 | fozzmoo | levi: heh. |
| 04:08.00 | fozzmoo | levi: You didn't like my blog post? |
| 04:08.02 | findlay | levi: that sounds like an itch you have been selected to scratch |
| 04:08.16 | levi | fozzmoo: The anti-liberal one? |
| 04:08.23 | herlo | levi: why would you want that? |
| 04:08.31 | fozzmoo | levi: Yeah! |
| 04:08.36 | fozzmoo | The 'anti-liberal' one. heh. |
| 04:08.38 | findlay | sacramentmeetingtalks.com: thousands of talks for free! |
| 04:08.40 | levi | herlo: So I don't have to waste effort writing one. |
| 04:09.01 | levi | herlo: Well, free would be even better. |
| 04:09.10 | herlo | levi: lazy |
| 04:09.13 | levi | I just assumed that someone would want to make money off of it. |
| 04:09.13 | fozzmoo | levi: I've probably got some books... |
| 04:09.29 | levi | fozzmoo: Oh, I can throw one together, I just don't want to. |
| 04:10.17 | fozzmoo | Hmmm. Maybe we can throw such a site together tonight. |
| 04:10.57 | levi | fozzmoo: That would be even more work than just writing a talk. |
| 04:11.10 | levi | And I don't really have any interest in enabling *other* lazy people. |
| 04:12.05 | fozzmoo | levi: What's your topic? |
| 04:12.31 | levi | "Strengthening the Family" |
| 04:12.59 | herlo | levi: tell them that the family could use open source products together and become closer |
| 04:13.09 | herlo | gimp will bring us together |
| 04:13.14 | herlo | that's my new slogan for gimp |
| 04:13.37 | levi | Actually, I wouldn't mind writing a talk, except I have to implement memory protection for user processes in GeekOS. |
| 04:14.00 | fozzmoo | I think it's cool when I hear people use 'gimp' as a verb in the same way people often use 'photoshop' as a verb. |
| 04:14.00 | levi | "Gimp Will Tear Us Apart" was way better. :P |
| 04:14.31 | herlo | fozzmoo: nice |
| 04:14.43 | herlo | levi: you have to hack geekos? |
| 04:14.51 | herlo | its like a job requirement? |
| 04:15.11 | herlo | not that I care, because that's what I'd do instead of writing some boring church thing |
| 04:15.17 | levi | A class assignment. |
| 04:15.30 | herlo | hence the reason I'm in the open source community and not the religious one |
| 04:16.41 | herlo | ~lart sighing |
| 04:16.41 | ibot | drops a humongous exploding nuke on sighing |
| 04:17.08 | levi | I need to learn to play that. |
| 04:17.51 | herlo | levi: another thing that's more important than that lame church thing... |
| 04:17.56 | herlo | :) |
| 04:18.20 | fozzmoo | levi: Did you actually read the 'anti-liberal' blog post (once the formatting got fixed) or did you just figure it was 'anti-liberal' and skip it? |
| 04:18.34 | levi | fozzmoo: No, I read it. |
| 04:18.38 | fozzmoo | levi: K. |
| 04:20.44 | levi | fozzmoo: I steadfastly refuse to buy into either 'liberal' or 'conservative' viewpoints. Both sides have their books and bloggers and talking heads and whatever that will suck you in if you pay too much attention to them. |
| 04:21.24 | fozzmoo | levi: Yeah. I like to stick to the facts. :) |
| 04:21.35 | levi | That's impossible. |
| 04:21.45 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 04:22.21 | fozzmoo | you're right. Most liberals would say the New Deal was the best thing FDR could have done for the country during the Great Depression. |
| 04:22.26 | levi | There is no presentation of 'the facts', there are simply stories that bear some resemblance to reality filtered through human perception. |
| 04:23.01 | fozzmoo | From my perspective, as a fiscal conservative, it was a disaster. |
| 04:23.18 | levi | And I'm sure there's some merit to that perspective. |
| 04:24.17 | levi | I'm sure there's some merit to the liberal perspective as well, but I'm not going to pretend I know which one has *more* merit. |
| 04:24.38 | levi | Both sides argue pretty vociferously that their side is the logical, fact-supported one. |
| 04:24.52 | levi | I'm pretty tired of it. |
| 04:25.05 | fozzmoo | One of the hardest things for me to deal with is reading history and papers about the Constitution. The "framers" spent SO much time writing, speaking, and expounding about why things should be certain ways. |
| 04:25.37 | fozzmoo | And, in spite of all that "guidance" at our disposal, we've drifted miles and miles away. |
| 04:26.17 | fozzmoo | Maybe that's why free societies don't usually last more than a couple hundred years. |
| 04:27.33 | levi | If they never last more than a couple hundred years, they're probably not a naturally sustainable form of government. The 'market' of humanity has spoken. :P |
| 04:27.37 | findlay | because we drifted away from what a bunch of guys thought 240 years ago? |
| 04:27.58 | fozzmoo | findlay: well, 220 years ago, yeah. |
| 04:28.14 | findlay | levi: I've given up on partisan politics too :) |
| 04:28.41 | fozzmoo | FWIW, I've given up on the parties. |
| 04:29.12 | fozzmoo | I think all the clowns we've elected and those on the ballot this year are all just going to take us further down the same road. |
| 04:29.19 | levi | I am personally not surprised or particularly troubled by government changing over the course of ~200 years. Some of the *particulars* are uncomfortable to me, but I really don't think that the government should remain exactly the same over time. |
| 04:29.19 | findlay | whenever somebody says 'liberal' or 'conservative' it usually turns out to be an artificial polarizer on an issue that deserves more attention than the self aggrandisement of a political party |
| 04:29.36 | levi | findlay: Exactly. |
| 04:30.17 | levi | Anyway, I had my taxes done today. People who whine about having to pay too much tax are... whiners. |
| 04:31.27 | Tene | Several of Eliezer Yudkowski's recent blog posts are relevant. |
| 04:31.39 | levi | And yes, taxing the rich more than the poor is unfair. But it isn't particularly fair that they got rich in the first place. Life's just not fair, and I don't see any point pretending that it is. |
| 04:32.04 | levi | Even with higher taxes, they're way better off than I am. |
| 04:32.22 | fozzmoo | And we shoudl penalize them for that? |
| 04:32.24 | findlay | levi: it's not about life not being fair, it's about what are you going to do about it |
| 04:32.58 | herlo | penalizE! |
| 04:33.09 | findlay | ~penalze herlo |
| 04:33.13 | levi | And I don't see evidence that rich people paying less taxes would lead to anything other than them getting richer without affecting much of anyone else. |
| 04:33.16 | vontrapp | levi: i'm fine with life not being fair, i'm not fine with the government helping out in that department |
| 04:33.17 | Tene | fozzmoo: so, perhaps, "$100 every year from every citizen" would be more fair? |
| 04:33.23 | herlo | ~turd findlay |
| 04:33.29 | levi | vontrapp: I'm fine with the government not being fair. |
| 04:33.34 | herlo | ~whallop findlay |
| 04:33.35 | ibot | ACTION gets her boyfriend herlo to whallop findlay until findlay whimpers like a little girl! |
| 04:33.39 | vontrapp | levi: rich people spend their money, boost for economy |
| 04:33.40 | fozzmoo | Tene: How about 15%from every citizen, every year? |
| 04:33.51 | vontrapp | levi: rich people hire other people to do work, boost for economy |
| 04:33.58 | vontrapp | so why is it bad to let them pay less taxes? |
| 04:34.00 | Tene | fozzmoo: but then the rich pay more. |
| 04:34.11 | findlay | % is an antiquated measure |
| 04:34.15 | fozzmoo | Tene: They pay more, but not more of the pie |
| 04:34.23 | vontrapp | levi: sometimes i wonder about you, Re: fine with govt. not being fair |
| 04:34.31 | findlay | people should be taxed \pi/8ths of their income |
| 04:34.32 | levi | vontrapp: I agree in theory, but I don't think the amounts we're talking about are going to make a significant effect on the economy. |
| 04:34.34 | Tene | fozzmoo: why are percentages more fair than a straight quantity? |
| 04:34.51 | vontrapp | fine, but that's no reason to not be fair about it |
| 04:35.09 | fozzmoo | Tene: Because people who make more are more likely to use more. |
| 04:35.12 | findlay | ~fair |
| 04:35.16 | vontrapp | and i really don't think the little extra tax money is going to make a difference in the govt. department anyway |
| 04:35.23 | levi | vontrapp: Sure there is. By giving them a greater tax burden, a whole lot more people suddenly have more disposable income. |
| 04:35.25 | Tene | fozzmoo: so why not a usage or consumption tax instead? |
| 04:35.33 | fozzmoo | Tene: I'm cool with that. :) |
| 04:35.55 | vontrapp | how does that work? you increase taxes on the rich, suddenly the poor become richer? |
| 04:36.17 | Tene | fozzmoo: so only the poor ever pay for public education, then? |
| 04:36.18 | findlay | vontrapp: now you're thinking like a liberal! |
| 04:36.23 | levi | vontrapp: If you increase taxes for the rich, you can decrease them for the poor and middle. |
| 04:36.44 | fozzmoo | ~thwack levi |
| 04:36.44 | ibot | ACTION bludgeons levi on the thumb with a toaster |
| 04:36.44 | vontrapp | levi: i just said i don't think the difference of rich taxiness is going to matter one bit |
| 04:36.54 | vontrapp | we're already spending way over what taxes bring in |
| 04:36.59 | fozzmoo | right |
| 04:37.03 | vontrapp | tax is like a fraction of the govts budget |
| 04:37.06 | levi | vontrapp: That's primarily because we're fighting a stupid war. |
| 04:37.25 | levi | I'm all for the government cutting back on spending. |
| 04:37.27 | fozzmoo | The Iraqi people would beg to differ. |
| 04:37.30 | Tene | vontrapp: so why don't we just drop taxes completely and stop pretending that that's what's paying for things? |
| 04:37.34 | fozzmoo | But, I agree. |
| 04:37.45 | levi | fozzmoo: As far as I can tell, the Iraqi people would beg for us to finish up and go home. |
| 04:37.48 | vontrapp | so quit sitting there bemoaning how all the candidates are all the same and for more war and open your eyes to one who actually is against war |
| 04:38.09 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:38.10 | vontrapp | i'm sick and tired of people saying they're all the same whilst leaving the one who's different out of it |
| 04:38.21 | Tene | How 'bout we all vote for levi for president? |
| 04:38.22 | levi | vontrapp: Dude, I know you like Ron Paul. Did I ever say all the candidates were the same? |
| 04:38.24 | vontrapp | Tene: fine with me :) |
| 04:38.25 | fozzmoo | because Ron Paul... not so much? |
| 04:38.43 | herlo | ron paul hasn't a chance in hell |
| 04:38.49 | fozzmoo | (unfortunately) |
| 04:39.09 | fozzmoo | gotta run |
| 04:40.38 | vontrapp | levi: read the backlog, guess you were talking specifically about the parties, not about candidates... |
| 04:41.35 | levi | vontrapp: I'm not saying the parties are the same, either. |
| 04:41.51 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: yeah, the war's not stupid to them, it's very real, very painful and very annoying |
| 04:41.57 | herlo | not unfortunate, ron paul is a real nut job |
| 04:42.25 | levi | Mostly I'm saying that I don't get sucked into any particular party's viewpoint, because they're both really skewed. |
| 04:42.28 | vontrapp | herlo: are you just spewing mediated anti-paul reterict? |
| 04:42.34 | herlo | nope |
| 04:42.41 | herlo | and its rhetoric, get your terms correct |
| 04:42.41 | levi | vontrapp: That's 'rhetoric', by the way. |
| 04:43.08 | vontrapp | spellling used to be a strong point, back in high school :/ |
| 04:43.14 | herlo | http://www.2008electionprocon.org/candidates/ronpaul.htm |
| 04:43.16 | brac | [Ron Paul - 2008 Election ProCon.org] |
| 04:44.09 | vontrapp | herlo: i'd like you to note that those NC are _really_ ron paul being in favor of states making those decisions |
| 04:44.50 | herlo | bush tax cuts made permanent, like that'll make sense |
| 04:45.07 | herlo | vontrapp: he also wants to let states be in charge of *almost* every decision |
| 04:45.15 | vontrapp | herlo: it makes sense along with his other plans, like not wasting money |
| 04:45.22 | herlo | do you know what would happen if Utah were to choose that |
| 04:45.23 | herlo | ? |
| 04:45.39 | vontrapp | herlo: what's wrong with that? the smaller, more local the government, the more it represents the people |
| 04:45.44 | herlo | liquor wouldn't exist, and entertainment would all be *family* friendly |
| 04:46.01 | vontrapp | and people could leave utah |
| 04:46.04 | vontrapp | big deal |
| 04:46.11 | herlo | I'm sure you like it, but those of use who enjoy an R movie from time to time and want to live in this state |
| 04:46.19 | herlo | vontrapp: that's not your choice |
| 04:46.37 | herlo | you can't say *leave* utah like its not a big deal |
| 04:46.39 | vontrapp | there are certain things states could not get away with due to the constitution, which ron paul whole heartedly supports |
| 04:47.06 | vontrapp | why? is utah going to force people to stay? |
| 04:47.10 | herlo | no |
| 04:47.17 | herlo | but businesses are here and families are here |
| 04:47.22 | vontrapp | and besides YOU are in utah, YOU can effect those policies |
| 04:47.30 | herlo | I'd leave if there ware draconian rules |
| 04:47.35 | levi | vontrapp: You won't want to live in Utah either after all the tech jobs leave. |
| 04:47.43 | vontrapp | fine with me |
| 04:47.49 | herlo | vontrapp: right, but if those rules were here and I didn't live in the state, how much would it convince me to *not* move here |
| 04:47.53 | herlo | same for businesses |
| 04:48.06 | herlo | levi: where are they going? |
| 04:48.10 | vontrapp | i'll do what i can to mold utah laws to what i agree with, if the majority disagrees, then i can live somewhere else |
| 04:48.20 | vontrapp | it's a whole lot harder to fight a national majority |
| 04:48.23 | levi | herlo: I don't think your scenario would play out anyway. There are already too many non-Mormons and sane mormons here. |
| 04:48.26 | herlo | vontrapp: that's crap |
| 04:48.30 | vontrapp | and leaving to canada or england is even harder |
| 04:48.52 | vontrapp | herlo: exactly |
| 04:49.00 | levi | herlo: I'm just saying they'd leave if there was no liquor or adult entertainment. |
| 04:49.05 | herlo | levi: fair enough, and a good reason why ron pauls ideas won't work |
| 04:49.10 | herlo | but I digress |
| 04:49.20 | vontrapp | herlo: because he's got the strongest grass roots support? |
| 04:49.24 | herlo | and move on to something else |
| 04:49.44 | vontrapp | ron paul |
| 04:50.01 | vontrapp | 's ideas wont work because utah tech jobs would leave with liquor and porn? |
| 04:50.37 | herlo | how's that relevant |
| 04:50.41 | levi | vontrapp: I'm not drawing that whole line of reasoning, I'm just saying tech jobs would leave with liquor and rated R movies. |
| 04:50.44 | sontek | ron paul is a fruit |
| 04:50.51 | vontrapp | let the state decide some things! state sovereignty used to be a very closely protected thing |
| 04:50.55 | levi | vontrapp: I don't think liquor and rated R movies would actually leave. |
| 04:51.09 | herlo | tech jobs don't leave because of ron paul, they leave because small companies sell to larger ones |
| 04:51.15 | sontek | He reminds me of the old homeless people that ramble on about the craziest stuff, and you just smile and nod until they walk away |
| 04:51.17 | levi | vontrapp: It used to be, but then we decided it wasn't so necessary. |
| 04:51.19 | vontrapp | levi: herlo thinks they will, as an inevitable consequence of ron paul being president |
| 04:51.31 | levi | vontrapp: Sure, but I don't agree with that. |
| 04:51.32 | herlo | vontrapp: that's the way it is now, states already have the rights to change somethings |
| 04:51.42 | herlo | vontrapp: and that's not all I think |
| 04:51.57 | herlo | those were isolated examples of how it might get out of hand here in Utah |
| 04:52.02 | herlo | and simple ones at that |
| 04:52.08 | vontrapp | all i said is that ron paul would leave some issues to states, and this site you posted calls those positions "not clearly pro or con" |
| 04:52.17 | vontrapp | as if he's undecided or waffling |
| 04:52.37 | vontrapp | and ron paul has repeatedly said that china _is_ a threat to the us |
| 04:52.39 | herlo | no, he's just not said one way or the other isall |
| 04:52.45 | herlo | according to this site anyway |
| 04:52.48 | vontrapp | the more i read this site the more i think they don't have the facts |
| 04:53.05 | herlo | read the mccain stuff, seems pretty accurate to me |
| 04:53.08 | herlo | and hillary |
| 04:53.33 | vontrapp | abortion: ron paul is CLEARLY pro life, sanctity of life, life starts at conception, but any federal law would have to be amended to the constitution PROPERLY, and in the mean time, states can have their way |
| 04:54.07 | vontrapp | just because the media darlings have accurate facts doesn't mean ron paul will get the same |
| 04:54.38 | levi | Ron Paul never had any more of a chance than Dennis Kucinich did. They were both crazy idealists, and very few people want to elect an idealist. |
| 04:54.56 | vontrapp | so what's so crazy might i ask? |
| 04:55.05 | levi | Idealism. |
| 04:55.33 | vontrapp | that we follow the constitution? that we give people back their rights? that we stop warring accross the globe? that we stop printing money out of thin air? that we stop all the entitlement that's bankrupting us? |
| 04:55.44 | herlo | right |
| 04:55.46 | herlo | that's the point |
| 04:55.47 | levi | Pretty much. |
| 04:55.54 | vontrapp | oh my gosh levi, someone can't have ideals without being crazy!?!?! |
| 04:56.13 | levi | Well, you can have ideals, but you can't get elected President that way. |
| 04:56.19 | vontrapp | people like you levi are what lets this country get so far off track |
| 04:56.33 | levi | Yeah, I'm pretty much a paragon of evil. |
| 04:56.41 | vontrapp | you don't care because you don't think good government is possible, so you just let it go to pot, cheering all the way |
| 04:56.41 | levi | In fact, that's an anagram of my name. |
| 04:56.43 | herlo | the point is that we as a country are far from where this country started, and it won't be coming back that direction any time soon. I think we took that left at albuquerque when we should have made a right |
| 04:56.44 | levi | vile, too. |
| 04:56.53 | herlo | and that's why I think Obama is the right choice |
| 04:56.59 | herlo | at least so far |
| 04:57.06 | vontrapp | herlo: so why not help it?? |
| 04:57.10 | herlo | he's for Change |
| 04:57.23 | herlo | vontrapp: I am, I'm voting for someone I think will make that change |
| 04:57.24 | vontrapp | if it's so far off track, why just sit there and say it's off track and DO NOTHING? |
| 04:57.26 | levi | vontrapp: It's not that I don't care, it's that I believe in compromise in government over ideals. People are too polarized to run on an idealistic ticket. |
| 04:57.43 | herlo | someone who feels so much like a person I can connect with and is willing to stand up and fight for what I believe in |
| 04:57.47 | levi | I really don't think things are too off-track, either. |
| 04:57.53 | herlo | and he's got momentum too. |
| 04:58.03 | vontrapp | levi: you have to have a starting place to compromise, if your starting place IS the compromise, then the following compromise will be even further from your ideal than ever |
| 04:58.06 | herlo | levi: really? |
| 04:58.20 | vontrapp | herlo: ron paul is willing to stand up for what you believe in |
| 04:58.24 | herlo | you guys think the government doesn't waste billions of dollars every year on crap we don't need |
| 04:58.28 | vontrapp | and he does it all the time |
| 04:58.46 | herlo | vontrapp: while that might be true, it seems to me that he's much less a realist |
| 04:59.00 | vontrapp | *sigh* |
| 04:59.01 | herlo | he has lofty goals that seem so "pie in the sky" |
| 04:59.02 | levi | herlo: Sure it does, but that's bureaucracy for you. There are a whole lot of people, and some degree of bureaucracy is inevitable. |
| 04:59.28 | levi | herlo: I'd like to see it decrease, and I think the crazy spending will decrease, because it has to. |
| 04:59.33 | herlo | levi: oh boy, bureaucracy needn't be as large as it is, but that's just the republican in me |
| 04:59.46 | herlo | levi: no it doensn't have to |
| 04:59.46 | vontrapp | k, so start with lofty goals, then when you have the inevitable political compromise, you'll at least be closer to those lofty goals than if your goal is to just hand over your ideals to 'realism' |
| 05:00.10 | levi | vontrapp: You're repeating stuff you've said before. |
| 05:00.17 | levi | vontrapp: I heard you the first time. |
| 05:00.21 | herlo | vontrapp: I think you cycled back around |
| 05:00.39 | herlo | trying to convince me of ron paul isn't going to change my opinion of ron paul |
| 05:00.54 | vontrapp | levi: millions of people are running on paul's idealized ticket |
| 05:01.06 | vontrapp | and the people who don't are like you, it's not realistic |
| 05:01.21 | levi | vontrapp: I don't understand what you're saying there. |
| 05:01.24 | herlo | vontrapp: problem is, he needs *tens* of millions possibly hundreds |
| 05:01.29 | vontrapp | so what if everyone just suddenly decided enough with being realistic! let's make a difference! what would happen then? |
| 05:01.46 | herlo | vontrapp: then we'd vote obama |
| 05:02.00 | levi | What if everyone on earth jumped as high as they could simultaneously? |
| 05:02.02 | vontrapp | herlo: so vote obama, say he's the best candidate |
| 05:02.04 | levi | What would happen then? |
| 05:02.15 | herlo | every time I think of ron paul, he reminds me of Perot |
| 05:02.15 | vontrapp | all i hear from you though is ron pauls ideals are great but their not realistic |
| 05:02.25 | levi | I have no idea, but it's just as hypothetical of a question. |
| 05:02.26 | vontrapp | if you believe in them then for God's sake vote for them! |
| 05:02.37 | vontrapp | *they're |
| 05:02.40 | herlo | in that he's got the minority vote |
| 05:02.48 | levi | vontrapp: Who said I believed in them? |
| 05:02.51 | vontrapp | herlo: so give him more votes! |
| 05:03.02 | herlo | vontrapp: it just seems you want to convince everyone that ron paul is the *only* choice |
| 05:03.04 | RedHeron | Realistic ideals are important because they are a sign of trustworthiness. |
| 05:03.05 | herlo | it comes up a lot |
| 05:03.34 | vontrapp | levi: herlo: you are both just appologizing your position based on the realism argument! if that's not the reason you don't support him, then stop giving lip to this realism thing and say what you really believe |
| 05:03.58 | vontrapp | herlo: when you say ron paul is crazy i have to interject |
| 05:04.03 | RedHeron | He is. |
| 05:04.09 | tensai | what if I really believe in realism? |
| 05:04.12 | vontrapp | and when you say his ideas are _too_ idealistic i have to interject |
| 05:04.22 | levi | If he was crazy, but I believed he'd make a good president, I'd vote for him. |
| 05:04.27 | herlo | vontrapp: trick is, I think you are talking to the wrong crowd. Geeks and Nerds are generally well educated, intelligent individuals with a strong sense of who they are and don't care much about what others think. If you want to sway voters, get the seniors or the others who want these ideals for the next generation |
| 05:04.40 | levi | He's not going to be on the ballot, though, so the point is moot. |
| 05:04.42 | herlo | vontrapp: I said he was a nut, not crazy |
| 05:04.58 | herlo | levi: unless he runs as an independent |
| 05:05.05 | herlo | and then its still moot |
| 05:05.11 | vontrapp | herlo: so now i'm not intelligent, thankx |
| 05:05.14 | levi | vontrapp: I was being hypothetical, I wasn't attempting to explain why I wasn't going to vote for him. |
| 05:05.17 | herlo | but he'll be on the ballot |
| 05:05.23 | herlo | vontrapp: you missed my point entirely |
| 05:05.50 | RedHeron | herlo: He does that a lot. I'm starting to think it's an intentional tactic for social engineering. |
| 05:05.57 | herlo | my point was that you *wont* be able to easily convince anyone here of anything without them digging through and making their own opinion |
| 05:05.58 | vontrapp | ok, let's back up |
| 05:06.02 | levi | vontrapp: I'm *this* close to just /ignoreing you, because you always go into this passionate Ron-fest that's really, really annoying. |
| 05:06.06 | RedHeron | It's certainly well-established as a mind-control tactic. |
| 05:06.12 | herlo | RedHeron: who does that? |
| 05:06.20 | vontrapp | i don't care who you vote for or who you support, as long as it's not "ron paul is great _but_" |
| 05:06.23 | RedHeron | herlo: vontrapp. |
| 05:06.27 | herlo | RedHeron: ok |
| 05:06.51 | herlo | vontrapp: why? I have every right to say that |
| 05:06.57 | levi | If I gave the impression that I thought 'Ron Paul is great, _but_', I apologize. |
| 05:07.10 | vontrapp | if you say he's great _but_, then i have to try to work on that _but_ part |
| 05:07.18 | RedHeron | Just so we're clear on that. |
| 05:07.24 | herlo | lol |
| 05:07.38 | levi | I don't think he's particularly great. I actually admire his idealism, to some degree, but I don't really agree with it. |
| 05:07.55 | vontrapp | ok, but when i ask "why is he crazy?" the first thing you say is "it won't work, it's too idealistic, he's crazy t think he can make a difference" |
| 05:08.01 | RedHeron | I think Ron Paul is a nutjob who will say and do pretty much anything to get into office, and that his track record is not one of stability or trustworthiness. |
| 05:08.11 | herlo | RedHeron: pm |
| 05:08.22 | vontrapp | RedHeron: he has said these same things for 20 years! |
| 05:08.30 | herlo | vontrapp: because that's the point |
| 05:08.53 | levi | vontrapp: If you jump from an answer to 'why do you think he is crazy?' to thinking we'd support him if only we didn't think he was crazy, you're delusional yourself. |
| 05:09.08 | vontrapp | herlo: so let him try to make a difference and sway the country at least a little towards better things |
| 05:09.09 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Saying the same thing for 20 years doesn't make it sane or trustworthy. |
| 05:09.17 | levi | vontrapp: This is the polarized viewpoint thing I was complaining about in the first place. |
| 05:09.27 | herlo | vontrapp: and I am, but its not ron paul |
| 05:09.35 | vontrapp | levi: it's not that you think he's crazy, it's WHY you think he's crazy |
| 05:10.17 | vontrapp | RedHeron: but it's certainly not "saying anything to get into office" |
| 05:10.25 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not? |
| 05:10.30 | vontrapp | it really is saying what he believes, and if people want that, so be it |
| 05:10.33 | levi | vontrapp: It's why I think he's perceived as crazy, not why *I* think he's crazy. |
| 05:10.53 | vontrapp | levi: you should have said that then |
| 05:11.05 | vontrapp | instead you say he _is_ crazy |
| 05:11.22 | vontrapp | but maybe that was herlo, i can't keep you two straight |
| 05:11.37 | RedHeron | vontrapp: He's been repeating the same lines for 20 years, believing that it will get him into office. He believes that if enough people hear the message, they'll vote for him. Insanity, by definition, is doing the same thing repetitively and expecting different results. |
| 05:11.44 | levi | vontrapp: Well, he is crazy. He's not only an idealist, he's a libertarian idealist. |
| 05:12.03 | levi | I think fanatic libertarians are kind of crazy. |
| 05:12.05 | vontrapp | levi: so you say he's crazy because he has ideals |
| 05:12.10 | vontrapp | ok, so stop denying it |
| 05:12.11 | RedHeron | And the fact that he's a Libertarian running on a Republican ticket makes me believe he's untrustworthy. |
| 05:12.27 | herlo | vontrapp: I said he was nuts, not crazy. |
| 05:12.31 | RedHeron | This is why the "say/do anything" statement applies. |
| 05:12.33 | vontrapp | RedHeron: he believes in what the republican party USED to be |
| 05:12.48 | levi | OK, this time I really did /ignore vontrapp. |
| 05:12.56 | vontrapp | -lart levi |
| 05:12.58 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Money-hungry conservative with liberal spending habits? |
| 05:13.14 | vontrapp | RedHeron: go farther back |
| 05:13.26 | herlo | but wants to see this play out for a while |
| 05:13.33 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's 1784, when the Republican-Democrats were founded. |
| 05:13.39 | tensai | levi: that's what I did the other day when we discussed chocolate. it was quite nice. |
| 05:13.42 | vontrapp | you guys can just have a real discussion about ISSUES instead of grasping at this crazy straw |
| 05:14.04 | herlo | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:14.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Issue: he's been repeating the same line for 20 years and expecting different results each time. That's the DEFINITION of insanity. |
| 05:14.30 | levi | If only it would also ignore text directed *to* vontrapp. |
| 05:14.38 | RedHeron | Sorry, levi. |
| 05:14.45 | vontrapp | or persistence, if one finally does get results then it's not insanity anymore, now is it? |
| 05:14.54 | herlo | levi: you can always to /ignore #utah |
| 05:15.08 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Persistence means changing tactics, even while the message stays the same. |
| 05:15.08 | levi | RedHeron: That's okay, I don't want anyone else to feel like they have to stop arguing with him just because I don't want to hear it. |
| 05:15.13 | vontrapp | and i gotta tell you, i'm seeing results, it may not be enough to get him president, but he's making a difference, he's getting results |
| 05:15.23 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Results, such as...? |
| 05:15.48 | levi | herlo: Yeah, but occasionally there are interesting things discussed here. |
| 05:15.48 | vontrapp | such as people waking up to this lowsy war and pleading to get out of it |
| 05:15.55 | herlo | levi: just for now |
| 05:16.10 | Tene | levi: there are irssi plugins to do that. |
| 05:16.20 | herlo | Tene: name 54 |
| 05:16.30 | RedHeron | Obama passes ethics reform bills that other people say is impossible... Obama misses net neutrality by 1 vote in the Senate... Obama verbally slaps elections officials who routinely block minority votes... like those kinds of results? |
| 05:16.31 | Tene | herlo: eh? what? |
| 05:16.43 | herlo | Tene: name 54 plugins that do that |
| 05:16.46 | herlo | :) |
| 05:16.52 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And about war... Obama was against it 100% because of the lack of an exit strategy. |
| 05:16.53 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 05:16.53 | vontrapp | RedHeron: oh sorry, i thought we were talking about ron paul |
| 05:16.58 | Tene | herlo: huh? |
| 05:17.11 | vontrapp | RedHeron: hence, obama as my number two choice |
| 05:17.35 | herlo | Tene: you said there were plugins for irssi to do the ignore stuff to someone |
| 05:17.37 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Ron Paul says he's anti-war, yet in Congress he routinely voted for defense budgets to increase. |
| 05:17.43 | herlo | so I said name 54, now the joke is gone! |
| 05:17.50 | vontrapp | RedHeron: DEFENSE! |
| 05:17.55 | RedHeron | Defense = war |
| 05:17.58 | herlo | woohoo! |
| 05:17.58 | vontrapp | i'm all for defense! |
| 05:18.11 | RedHeron | Defense = military spending = war |
| 05:18.11 | vontrapp | iraq != defense! |
| 05:18.28 | vontrapp | RedHeron: we have to have a military, now you're the nut job |
| 05:18.30 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Iraq was still justified using the defense budget. |
| 05:18.40 | vontrapp | but not by ron paul |
| 05:18.46 | RedHeron | Nor by Obama. |
| 05:18.55 | RedHeron | Ron Paul wasn't in Congress at the time. |
| 05:19.04 | vontrapp | ok, i agree that obama is anti war! he's my second choice for that very reason |
| 05:19.25 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Obama is not anti-war, he's anti-imprudence. If war is necessary, he'll go to war. But if there's another way possible, he'll take it. I like that stance a lot. |
| 05:19.27 | vontrapp | RedHeron: at the time of 9/11? at the time of iraq? he certainly was! |
| 05:19.55 | vontrapp | but if we have no defenses in place, how will we go to war when we really need it? |
| 05:20.10 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Either you're anti-war, or you're not. You can't be both. |
| 05:20.30 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i'm anti war! i want out of iraq! but i think we should have a defense!! sheesh! |
| 05:20.55 | vontrapp | quit trying to tell me what i am! |
| 05:21.00 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So... if you're anti-war, then why budget 40% of our economy for defense? |
| 05:21.35 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'm not telling you what YOU are, I'm giving an example to try to show you what Ron Paul is. |
| 05:21.42 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you'll have to give me a source for that one |
| 05:22.00 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Try looking at the national budget numbers since 2000 sometime. |
| 05:22.09 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I think they're online, IIRC. |
| 05:22.13 | vontrapp | yeah, since ron paul is solely responsible for those |
| 05:22.23 | RedHeron | vontrapp: No, but he voted them up. |
| 05:22.57 | vontrapp | so i need specific votes for specific bills |
| 05:23.09 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Then do what I did: the research. |
| 05:23.15 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's all available online. |
| 05:23.20 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Well, back to about 2000. |
| 05:23.24 | vontrapp | you can't say "budget is up 40%" and say "paul voted for some budget" and conclude that paul voted for all 40% of it |
| 05:23.53 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I didn't say "up 40%", I said 40% of our national budget went for defense in 2000. |
| 05:23.59 | RedHeron | Now it's something like 65% |
| 05:24.12 | herlo | that's sick |
| 05:24.19 | RedHeron | And they wonder why we're in an economic slump... |
| 05:24.44 | vontrapp | RedHeron: because the "defense" budget is going to iraq |
| 05:24.48 | herlo | RedHeron: I don't know, I think the economic slump had more to do with idiots buying more home than they should |
| 05:25.06 | herlo | that and subsidized oil (actual cost for gas, $6/gallon) |
| 05:25.07 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Those kinds of budgets are "must pass" and typically "all or nothing". You vote them up or down. |
| 05:25.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Our economic slump is directly related to Iraq. |
| 05:26.22 | RedHeron | herlo: Domestic oil is only $1.80/gallon after processing and distribution. |
| 05:26.29 | herlo | RedHeron: nope |
| 05:26.49 | vontrapp | RedHeron: no argument there, iraq == economy problems |
| 05:26.53 | RedHeron | herlo: Where is that $6 figure coming from? Mine's coming from Congressional report. |
| 05:26.56 | herlo | or gas even |
| 05:27.04 | RedHeron | Wow... |
| 05:27.22 | herlo | RedHeron: let me see if I can find it. I was listening to a story on npr about it... |
| 05:27.44 | RedHeron | herlo: Thanks, that would be handy to have! |
| 05:28.07 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So, the issue is that Ron Paul is not getting elected. Obama stands a chance. Voting for Obama !== voting against Ron Paul. |
| 05:28.37 | vontrapp | ok, as long as your not voting obama _because_ ron paul has no chance |
| 05:28.46 | herlo | RedHeron: this seems close, but not the report I had in mind, just read the first paras |
| 05:28.49 | vontrapp | if you haven't guessed, i feel very strongly about this |
| 05:28.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: My mistrust of Ron Paul is why I'm voting for Obama. |
| 05:28.57 | herlo | http://www.progress.org/2003/energy22.htm |
| 05:29.01 | brac | [What Gasoline Really Costs Us] |
| 05:29.10 | vontrapp | if you wanted to vote for mccain, but thought he had no chance against hillary, so you voted huckabee, i would feel the same way |
| 05:29.24 | RedHeron | herlo: That's foreign oil importation + domestic. |
| 05:29.46 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I don't get what you mean. |
| 05:30.07 | herlo | here's another one - http://tinyurl.com/3bpa64 |
| 05:30.09 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i mean, please vote your conscience! that's all i ask, if your conscience says obama, then i won't bother you |
| 05:30.14 | vontrapp | 22:28 < RedHeron> vontrapp: So, the issue is that Ron Paul is not getting |
| 05:30.20 | vontrapp | but alas ^^ you say things like that |
| 05:30.34 | vontrapp | the issue is NOT that ron paul is not getting elected |
| 05:30.41 | vontrapp | the issue is YOU like obama |
| 05:30.46 | vontrapp | and i can be fine with that |
| 05:30.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: My conscience is based on solid facts and reasoning, in this case... and the fact that the more I study Ron Paul, the less I can trust him. |
| 05:31.12 | vontrapp | OK! so stop saying it's because he's not getting elected |
| 05:31.42 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's a fact. |
| 05:32.01 | vontrapp | no fact about it, unless my crystal ball is broken |
| 05:32.01 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'm pointing out that a vote for Paul is a wasted one for quite a wide variety of reasons. |
| 05:32.06 | herlo | RedHeron: and another - http://tinyurl.com/3awplw |
| 05:32.09 | brac | [Low-Grade Markets & Oil Subsidies] |
| 05:32.10 | levi | RedHeron: I can't believe you're still arguing with him about Ron Paul. He will never change his mind, and he's only going to continue trying to make you feel bad for not supporting Ron Paul. |
| 05:32.13 | vontrapp | that's where i dissagree |
| 05:32.28 | vontrapp | no vote is wasted, and this is what i feel so strongly about, and that's what keeps me arguing |
| 05:32.29 | RedHeron | levi: It's not about changing his mind. :-) |
| 05:32.33 | herlo | in the middle, it talks about all the subsidies we get and how it might go up by at least $.30 or mor likely $1.5 per gallon |
| 05:33.10 | vontrapp | someone tell levi that i'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for not supporting ron paul |
| 05:33.17 | RedHeron | herlo: It's still not talking solely about domestic oil. We have decent reserves in the US, and still we import at 2-5 times the cost of domestic production. |
| 05:33.34 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The problem is, you appear to be doing just that. |
| 05:33.36 | vontrapp | i'm simply trying to tell people to vote for reasons other than who can win |
| 05:33.44 | levi | RedHeron: Why are you continuing to argue, then? For the fun of it? |
| 05:33.56 | RedHeron | levi: No, there's a purpose. :-) |
| 05:34.05 | tensai | herlo: I looked at what it would cost and what it would save me to install a wind or solar device on my house. turns out it's not too economical for me because my power is too cheap. |
| 05:34.17 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'm trying to tell you that there are a wide variety of reasons OTHER than who "can" win. |
| 05:34.20 | herlo | tensai: right |
| 05:34.32 | vontrapp | so stop bringing up the viability argument |
| 05:34.37 | vontrapp | that's what pisses me off so much |
| 05:34.41 | tensai | herlo: for similar reasons, replacements for gas won't be taken serious until it hits people where they actually notice |
| 05:34.42 | vontrapp | unless that's what you're trying to do |
| 05:34.44 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Why, because it's true? |
| 05:34.47 | vontrapp | in that case i will just /ignore you |
| 05:34.59 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i sure would like to have your crystal ball |
| 05:35.00 | herlo | tensai: but in areas where the wind is more plentiful and the electricity is more expensive, it'll come up |
| 05:35.04 | herlo | tensai: again, I agree |
| 05:35.21 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I won't stop you from /ignoring me, but if you persist, you're the one who will end up on everyone's /ignore list. |
| 05:35.33 | tensai | herlo: yup. just agreeing with you. :) |
| 05:35.54 | vontrapp | i'm simply trying to stand up for a principle i very strongly believe in, and that is that NO vote is wasted, PERIOD |
| 05:35.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: My "crystal ball" is based in historical data and hard facts. |
| 05:36.09 | vontrapp | you still can't tell the future |
| 05:36.21 | vontrapp | historical data is just that, historical, in the past |
| 05:36.25 | herlo | tensai: np, I like it when we agree, unlike the rest of this channel atm |
| 05:36.38 | levi | That's a good idea. RedHeron is on my /ignore list now, too. I haven't heard much other than politics out of him lately. |
| 05:36.44 | RedHeron | vontrapp: True, but if we can't rely on track record to tell us which direction things are heading, what can we rely on? |
| 05:36.45 | vontrapp | herlo: that's not fair, i've agreed on many things |
| 05:37.05 | vontrapp | RedHeron: PRINCIPLES! |
| 05:37.18 | vontrapp | you don't have to agree with mine, but get your own |
| 05:37.32 | RedHeron | levi: I work in politics. It's actually my job. (Someone please relay in PM) |
| 05:37.44 | tensai | I am completely sick of this ron paul discussion. it's gone on for days and NOTHING USEFUL has come of it. |
| 05:37.51 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I have solid principles, like civil liberties and reliance upon reason. |
| 05:38.11 | tensai | s/discussion/argument/ |
| 05:38.30 | vontrapp | tensai: i'm not trying to convince anyone the merits of ron paul, other people are writing him off because of this amazing ability to tell the future |
| 05:38.36 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Bull. |
| 05:38.52 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're trying to convince us that Ron Paul is the best option. |
| 05:38.59 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That much is obvious. |
| 05:39.15 | vontrapp | RedHeron: how many times have i said i don't care who you vote for, but rather the reasons you do it? |
| 05:39.29 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And I've told you the reasons, and you seem to try to invalidate them. |
| 05:39.38 | vontrapp | i ask people for their reasons, and whenever they say "it will never happen" i go ballistic |
| 05:39.41 | vontrapp | i admit as much |
| 05:39.44 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's not "writing off" that's logic. |
| 05:39.48 | vontrapp | but it's not because anyone dissagrees with paul |
| 05:39.58 | tensai | vontrapp: you've certainly made no progress in convincing RedHeron of that. I would please ask you both to knock it off. |
| 05:40.03 | vontrapp | RedHeron: telling the future is not logic |
| 05:40.06 | RedHeron | vontrapp: *I* disagree with Paul on the basis that he's crazy. |
| 05:40.15 | vontrapp | RedHeron: ok |
| 05:40.21 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And the fact of the matter is, he's garnered less than 10% of the vote. |
| 05:40.27 | herlo | vontrapp: its interesting you would say that. I'm not suggesting you haven't agreed on many things, just that the conversation is well past my threshold |
| 05:40.28 | vontrapp | just don't tell me why you think he's crazy |
| 05:40.38 | vontrapp | RedHeron: knock it off with the numbers! they don't matter! |
| 05:40.40 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Why not? It's perfectly valid as my opinion. |
| 05:40.49 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Numbers don't matter? |
| 05:40.51 | vontrapp | so keep it to yourself |
| 05:41.00 | vontrapp | RedHeron: NO vote is WASTED! |
| 05:41.04 | vontrapp | EVER |
| 05:41.12 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Why don't we just install Ron Paul to office, then... skip the vote and do away with democracy. |
| 05:41.33 | vontrapp | even if i could, i would never do that |
| 05:41.46 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Come on... 10% is meaningful, and he hasn't even gotten that. |
| 05:41.58 | vontrapp | you are completely missing my point, and as long as you miss it, i have to try to tell you NO VOTE IS WASTED EVER |
| 05:41.58 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Saying the numbers don't matter is not reasonable. |
| 05:42.18 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Wasted vote = vote for something that will never happen in a million years. |
| 05:42.27 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i don't care if he wins, i vote for him anyway |
| 05:43.06 | vontrapp | why? because i agree with him |
| 05:43.14 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The argument isn't about whom you're voting for, it's about why to vote or not that way... thus the reason for elections to begin with, and the justification for my saying that you're attempting to convince us. |
| 05:43.19 | vontrapp | not because he can beat so and so |
| 05:44.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Agreeing with ideals is fine... but if you can't trust the person you're planning to vote for because what they're promising won't ever happen, then you're either crazy or a fool. |
| 05:44.21 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i feel very strongly about this wasted vote thing |
| 05:44.41 | vontrapp | RedHeron: or i'm principled and damn proud of it |
| 05:44.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I know you do. And I won't vote for the "lesser of evils" because I do believe in wasted votes. It's like wasting time discussing Obama with you. |
| 05:45.11 | vontrapp | so why are you doing it? |
| 05:45.18 | vontrapp | i guess you're crazy or a fool |
| 05:45.22 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because it's my job, actually. |
| 05:46.04 | vontrapp | so if i don't concede that i'm crazy for supporting a man who has a snowballs chance in hell, then you fail at your job? ooh, that's great |
| 05:46.17 | RedHeron | vontrapp: How do you get that? |
| 05:46.33 | vontrapp | i can tell the future, i fixed my crystal ball |
| 05:46.34 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're obviously misconstruing something I said, but I don't see where. |
| 05:46.51 | vontrapp | why are you arguing? ... because it's my job |
| 05:46.56 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It is. |
| 05:47.07 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'm an officer in a political party. |
| 05:47.15 | vontrapp | well, if you're done doing your job i'd like to watch tv now |
| 05:47.30 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So stop arguing/trying to convince us that Ron Paul is great. |
| 05:47.36 | vontrapp | I'M NOT! |
| 05:47.46 | RedHeron | vontrapp: If I have nothing to argue against, then there's nothing to say. |
| 05:47.57 | vontrapp | i'm trying to tell you writing off ron paul because of his chances really irks me |
| 05:48.32 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Resistance is the key, here. I've explained that that is only ONE of the reasons I won't vote for him, among many, many others. So why can't you get that? |
| 05:49.06 | vontrapp | because it's one of the reasons |
| 05:49.16 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's perfectly valid. |
| 05:49.27 | vontrapp | that's what i dissagree with |
| 05:49.38 | vontrapp | but everytime i say that you change the subject |
| 05:49.41 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The validity of the argument, or the fact that I'm allowed to use it? |
| 05:49.45 | vontrapp | to "vontrapp is trying to evangelize ron paul" |
| 05:49.56 | vontrapp | the validity |
| 05:50.01 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Well, you are, and I haven't noticed your changing the subject. |
| 05:50.12 | vontrapp | RedHeron: that's because you change it |
| 05:50.14 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Or mine, for that matter. |
| 05:51.00 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Validity is something that cannot be changed. Truth is truth, it's all a matter of how it's expressed. It cannot be created or destroyed, it simply exists or it doesn't |
| 05:51.30 | vontrapp | RedHeron: he might not win, he doesn't have a whole lot of chance, that saddens me, but you do not know what will happen, neither do i |
| 05:51.43 | vontrapp | and even if i did know for a fact that he will lose, i would still vote for him |
| 05:51.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: <10% of the vote so far says the chances are EXCEEDINGLY unlikely. |
| 05:52.04 | vontrapp | so what |
| 05:52.08 | vontrapp | that doesn't matter |
| 05:52.13 | vontrapp | i vote on principle |
| 05:52.20 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And as I said, I believe a vote for him is a waste because of his lack of principle. |
| 05:52.21 | vontrapp | and think everyone should do the same |
| 05:52.49 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So if you believe that honestly, why are you in here trying to evangelize? |
| 05:52.52 | vontrapp | so don't vote for him based on his lack of principle, leave his chances out of it |
| 05:53.12 | vontrapp | i've never said your reasons for supporting obama are bunk |
| 05:53.16 | RedHeron | vontrapp: His chances are slim because OTHER people realize something about him that you're missing. |
| 05:53.34 | vontrapp | RedHeron: and what's that, "reality"? |
| 05:53.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: My job is to be very well-informed about politics. That something is the fact that his positions are unrealistic and therefore untrustworthy. |
| 05:54.37 | vontrapp | i don't see him as promising anything, simply stating a goal, an ideal, that we should strive for |
| 05:55.10 | vontrapp | and that takes courage |
| 05:55.26 | vontrapp | but enough about ron paul there you go changing the subject again |
| 05:55.34 | RedHeron | vontrapp: "As president, I would support abolishment of the IRS." (Empty promise, since he didn't say he'd start it.) |
| 05:55.46 | vontrapp | support it, he doesn't promise it |
| 05:56.30 | RedHeron | vontrapp: "I'm against network neutrality on the basis that it's an unnecessary regulation." (Business practices say otherwise, and supporting corporatism = fascism, not libertarianism). |
| 05:56.55 | vontrapp | what's this, another subject change? |
| 05:57.22 | RedHeron | vontrapp: "I'd completely deregulate the internet." (Unrealistic and completely against the interests of Congress, so would never happen.) |
| 05:57.48 | RedHeron | vontrapp: This is not changing the subject, since the subject is the reasoning behind Ron Paul's campaign. |
| 05:57.55 | vontrapp | getting out of iraq is completely against a whole lot of interests, it's never going to happen |
| 05:58.09 | vontrapp | thus obama has empty promises, and is untrustworthy |
| 05:58.36 | vontrapp | RedHeron: would you like to deregulate the internet? |
| 05:58.42 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Obama: "The information I have from the Joint Chiefs is that we could safely pull out of Iraq in as little as 16 months. That's something I can not only support, it would be my primary goal once in office." |
| 05:59.14 | vontrapp | and it might not happen, obama is making promises he can't keep |
| 05:59.22 | vontrapp | he's dishonest slime |
| 05:59.24 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I don't see that the internet is regulated by anyone other than the ISP's, and supporting net neutrality would take that control completely out of the equation. |
| 05:59.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: As president, his position as the Commander-in-Chief means he doesn't need Congressional approval to end the war. |
| 05:59.58 | vontrapp | sorry, my logic is flawed, it WILL NOT happen, because i have a crystal ball |
| 06:01.07 | vontrapp | goodbye |
| 06:01.17 | RedHeron | Go watch your television. |
| 06:01.44 | RedHeron | </today's political debate> |
| 06:05.35 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 06:13.09 | fozzmoo | whew. |
| 06:13.17 | fozzmoo | Looks like I missed out on some fun talk. |
| 06:13.37 | fozzmoo | Kind of irresponsible to start something like that and then have your wife come down and say, "Why don't you spend some time with the family?!" |
| 06:14.19 | levi | fozzmoo: "fun talk"? |
| 06:14.31 | fozzmoo | I suppose you can write in whomever you want. |
| 06:14.58 | fozzmoo | levi: Yeah. Nice exchange of ideas. |
| 06:15.27 | levi | fozzmoo: If you want to call it that. |
| 06:15.38 | fozzmoo | I'm not quite bolted in to Paul's camp, but I think his platform *is* what the GOP should be. |
| 06:16.08 | fozzmoo | I thought Romney stood for most of that, contrary to vontrapp's beliefs, and was far more electable. |
| 06:16.11 | levi | More like slinging ideas back and forth without actually having any meaningful exchange happening. |
| 06:16.35 | fozzmoo | yeah- I could tell there was a lot of talking past each other rather than at each other. |
| 06:16.50 | levi | Utter waste of time, which is why I /ignore'd both of them about an hour ago. |
| 06:16.57 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 06:17.16 | fozzmoo | Well, it looks like you can unignore them. They've been done for about 16 min |
| 06:17.57 | levi | I know better than to think they're done for good, and I don't recall hearing either of them talk about anything else anytime recently. |
| 06:21.24 | RedHeron | I speak about politics because it's my job to, and if Levi will remember we had a pretty good discussion about chocolate (please relay, since I'm on /ignore). |
| 06:21.38 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: You're job? |
| 06:21.41 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 06:21.41 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 06:21.49 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Yes, I'm a political party officer. |
| 06:21.51 | fozzmoo | levi: RedHeron: I speak about politics because it's my job to, and if Levi will remember we had a pretty good discussion about chocolate (please relay, since I'm on /ignore). |
| 06:21.52 | levi | Actually, I decided to remove the /ignores anyway. |
| 06:22.01 | RedHeron | Ah, okay, cool. |
| 06:22.20 | RedHeron | FWIW, I'd much rather talk about chocolate. |
| 06:22.36 | levi | I hate /ignoring, but I hate drawn-out arguments about politics even more. |
| 06:22.54 | levi | We finished off the box from Chocolatier Blue. Mmm. |
| 06:23.04 | fozzmoo | I wish I could enjoy chocolate more. |
| 06:23.06 | RedHeron | I talk about political stuff all day long, and debate is second-nature to me, thus my lowered tolerance to baiting for a good debate. |
| 06:23.31 | vontrapp | hmm |
| 06:23.58 | levi | The only good debate is a moderated one. :P |
| 06:24.07 | levi | With a time limit. |
| 06:24.09 | RedHeron | The purpose of my debate was to exhaust you, vontrapp... it was nothing more or less, since you were pontificating and I had to pontificate back. |
| 06:24.19 | RedHeron | Apologies to the rest of the channel. |
| 06:24.56 | RedHeron | levi: It would be ideal if that could happen in an IRC chat room, but it requires an education that not everyone has about debate. |
| 06:25.05 | fozzmoo | I agree. |
| 06:25.29 | vontrapp | so dancing around in circles is educated debate |
| 06:25.44 | fozzmoo | I guess you could do it in IRC with an op who wielded voice with an iron vist. |
| 06:25.48 | fozzmoo | s/vist/fist/ |
| 06:25.51 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Ever watch Congress? |
| 06:26.07 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: That's how it's happened before. |
| 06:26.16 | vontrapp | probably not because they dance around in circles |
| 06:27.11 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They dance around in circles more than you and I just did, and with far more devious intent. |
| 06:27.25 | vontrapp | and that's good? |
| 06:27.34 | RedHeron | vontrapp: No, that's Congress. |
| 06:28.47 | RedHeron | "Educated debate" means making convincing statements (called "arguments") and allowing the other person to have their say. It's a matter of critical thinking and knowing when to make a non-sequitur that seems perfectly valid. |
| 06:29.30 | vontrapp | well if the intent of educated debate is to decieve then i want no part in it, and i'll never debate you again |
| 06:30.51 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not deception to convince someone to do the right things for the right reason by taking a position against them for the sole purpose of making them prove their case. |
| 06:34.09 | vontrapp | except it apparently has nothing to do with proving any points, it's dogding the points until they're too exhausted to talk to you |
| 06:35.55 | RedHeron | No, that was merely my own tactic. |
| 06:36.04 | vontrapp | well you suck |
| 06:36.41 | RedHeron | It was because I wanted to prove a point: when you repeatedly dodge points yourself, people tire of it and are LESS likely to vote for the person you want them to. |
| 06:36.43 | levi | You *both* suck. |
| 06:36.54 | fozzmoo | levi: How's that talk comin? :) |
| 06:36.59 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i was dodging nothing |
| 06:37.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You were dodging a lot, actually. |
| 06:37.24 | levi | fozzmoo: I've been reading a bunch of talks and trying to figure out what I want to say in mine. |
| 06:37.36 | fozzmoo | cool. |
| 06:37.49 | vontrapp | i was trying to make a point that you can vote for whoever you want, but don't tell me ron paul has no chance |
| 06:38.05 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's not what you started out saying. |
| 06:38.16 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And please, let's not go into that again. |
| 06:38.34 | RedHeron | For the sake of the channel, if you want to debate that more, please let's do it in PM. |
| 06:39.16 | vontrapp | i started out desiring to know what people thought of ron paul, and all i got was crazy and non electable |
| 06:39.38 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And those are opinions, and things that are our right to believe. |
| 06:39.45 | RedHeron | vontrapp: True or not, we can believe it. |
| 06:40.14 | levi | vontrapp: It seems to me that you don't want to know what people think of Ron Paul, you want to find people who don't like him or think things about him that you think are wrong so you can engage them in argument. |
| 06:40.20 | fozzmoo | I only believe one of those: that he's unelectable. |
| 06:40.57 | levi | vontrapp: You seem to be under the assumption that you can then correct their thinking and turn them into Ron Paul supporters. |
| 06:40.59 | vontrapp | levi: no, how about you tell me real reasons not to vote for him instead of crazy, nut job, or unelectable |
| 06:41.15 | levi | vontrapp: How about I don't? |
| 06:41.30 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Those *are* real reasons... they're OPINION and thus defensible. |
| 06:41.58 | vontrapp | i sincerely want to engage in honest debate, real issues, real reasons to support or not support a candidate |
| 06:42.10 | vontrapp | but people get all hung up on this crazy ron paul thing |
| 06:42.11 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Then don't do it in this channel? |
| 06:42.17 | tensai | fozzmoo: I'll take you up on your challenge. I think I can explain why some view a flat percentage tax as un-fair. |
| 06:42.47 | levi | For the record, I don't think he's really insane, as in psychologically unbalanced. |
| 06:42.57 | fozzmoo | I guess I could take the typical liberal reason to vote for Obama or Clinton and say I'm going to vote for Ron Paul because i think it would be cool if we had a short, pastey white guy as president. |
| 06:42.58 | vontrapp | RedHeron: or how about you stay out of it with your circular tactics |
| 06:43.14 | levi | In the same way that I'm not referring to psychological illness when I say, 'no way, man, that's crazy!' |
| 06:43.17 | tensai | fozzmoo: let's make up a scenario. Alice earns $10k and Bob earns $100k. Each pays a 10% income tax. |
| 06:43.19 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Those are issues that people believe in, opinions that they have based on things that they have personally experienced, and expressing opinion is what democracy is all about. |
| 06:43.55 | fozzmoo | tensai: "Go, Bob!" |
| 06:44.00 | vontrapp | RedHeron: fine, but that's an opinion that really pisses me off, so don't talk to me about it |
| 06:44.04 | RedHeron | vontrapp: If what you want is an honest debate, quit attacking my logic and do it in a channel for political debating. |
| 06:44.55 | tensai | fozzmoo: he founded a linux consulting firm and has been doing well for himself. meanwhile, Alice tried to score big by getting her MCSE but found that the market was saturated. |
| 06:44.55 | vontrapp | RedHeron: please drop it, i want to listen to fozzmoo and tensai now |
| 06:45.03 | RedHeron | I hang out in here to get AWAY from politics, so talking about Ron Paul, Romney, Giuliani, McCain, Clinton... hell, even Obama pisses me off in here. I'd rather talk about ANYTHING but politics, honestly. |
| 06:45.12 | tensai | but that's just confusing the issue |
| 06:45.16 | fozzmoo | tensai: Oooh. |
| 06:45.34 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so you keep at it with the sole purpose of exhausting me |
| 06:45.43 | levi | Which one of Bob and Alice is having a secret affair this week? |
| 06:45.46 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because you give me fodder to shoot back with. |
| 06:46.03 | levi | Neither of you can resist an argument. It's really sad. |
| 06:46.05 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That which offers no resistance cannot be stopped. |
| 06:46.10 | tensai | fozzmoo: if we were to double their tax rate to 20%, who would feel the pinch more? |
| 06:46.20 | RedHeron | levi: I know, but it's also what I'm paid to do. :-( |
| 06:46.37 | levi | RedHeron: I get paid to program, yet I'm perfectly capable of not doing it. |
| 06:46.40 | vontrapp | what the hell is that supposed to mean? |
| 06:46.47 | tensai | levi: hard to say. they encrypt all their communications. |
| 06:46.55 | RedHeron | levi: Only because you need more than your mind to do it. |
| 06:47.28 | vontrapp | goodbye again RedHeron |
| 06:47.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's supposed to be thought about. |
| 06:47.29 | fozzmoo | tensai: Hmmm. I still don't get it. |
| 06:47.42 | fozzmoo | I mean, I get your question, but I don't see the presumably obvious answer. |
| 06:47.56 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Cost of living is one key to the answer to this. |
| 06:48.23 | fozzmoo | Are you saying that Alice is more likely to be living paycheck to paycheck (or in her parents' basement)? |
| 06:48.23 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: How much does it cost to live, vs. how much tax you pay? |
| 06:48.31 | tensai | fozzmoo: even if we tax Bob at a higher rate, he's still going to have enough money to be well above poverty |
| 06:48.33 | levi | The answer is, "Flat taxes are regressive, which is 'unfair' to people with less disposable income" |
| 06:48.59 | tensai | levi: yes, that's a good summation |
| 06:49.29 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 06:49.50 | fozzmoo | Okay. That's a good point. I'll have to think about that one. |
| 06:50.02 | levi | fozzmoo: You hadn't heard that point before? |
| 06:50.03 | rsimpkins | I need to capture the output of an interactive script. Any suggestions? |
| 06:50.12 | tensai | fozzmoo: Alices taxes come out of the grocery budget. Bob's come out of the new home theater budget. |
| 06:50.27 | levi | rsimpkins: Could expect be coerced into doing that? |
| 06:50.39 | tensai | rsimpkins: screen? |
| 06:50.44 | vontrapp | rsimpkins: expect |
| 06:50.45 | fozzmoo | levi: You know... Not since flat and fair taxes became all the rage the last couple years. |
| 06:50.46 | levi | rsimpkins: Otherwise, you could do it in screen and save the scrollback. |
| 06:50.54 | rsimpkins | This is, unfortunatly, a closed system. So, no screen. |
| 06:50.56 | vontrapp | rsimpkins: but it has quite the learning curce |
| 06:50.59 | vontrapp | *curve |
| 06:51.00 | rsimpkins | I'm not sure on expect... |
| 06:51.15 | levi | fozzmoo: This is my 'perspective' argument all over again. :) |
| 06:51.23 | rsimpkins | Sheesh, no expect either! :) |
| 06:51.29 | fozzmoo | levi: You're right. |
| 06:51.44 | tensai | rsimpkins: screen could be run on the host that is sshing, rather than on the system itself |
| 06:51.50 | fozzmoo | I'll admit, most of my political views tend to be at the 60,000 foot level. |
| 06:51.56 | rsimpkins | It's an embedded device of sorts. I have bash, and most of the standard commands. |
| 06:52.06 | levi | fozzmoo: I mean, the fair tax proponents have all sorts of nice facts and reasoning supporting their view. But then, so do the advocates of progressive taxes. |
| 06:52.13 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: What are you looking at? |
| 06:52.27 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: Propritary system based on FreeBSD. |
| 06:52.31 | RedHeron | levi: So do communists. |
| 06:52.45 | levi | RedHeron: Indeed. |
| 06:52.48 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: Sounds like a Juniper router. |
| 06:52.55 | fozzmoo | mostly because most of the problems we're facing in government today is problems created by the government trying to solve more problems. |
| 06:52.57 | vontrapp | but if complicated tax systems cost more to implement, then people are just going to all end up paying more anyway |
| 06:53.13 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: If it was just a router I wouldn't care as much. This is a storage system. |
| 06:53.18 | levi | RedHeron: They have somewhat fewer stories that can be construed as successes, though. |
| 06:53.23 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: Network appliance? |
| 06:53.29 | tensai | fozzmoo: you expect problems to cause themselves? how dull. |
| 06:53.30 | rsimpkins | Similar. |
| 06:53.54 | fozzmoo | It does remind me of something I heard while listening to Rush Limbaugh a couple years ago... when gas prices started really going up. |
| 06:53.55 | RedHeron | levi: Very true, but there's a reason people in the US generally don't like communism. |
| 06:54.34 | levi | RedHeron: I'm sure there are a number of reasons, but which are you referring to? |
| 06:54.39 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: My own thought is to duplicate the script and line-by-line it... not very efficient, but probably the best bet for efficacy. |
| 06:54.47 | fozzmoo | He said something like, "All you people are complaining about how the price of gasoline is making it difficult for you to afford to drive to work: Let me give you a suggestion you maybe hadn't thought of: Make more money." |
| 06:54.51 | RedHeron | levi: The large number of reasons, specifically. |
| 06:55.09 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: Some day someone is going to come up with a really simple way to do this. :) |
| 06:55.15 | tensai | fozzmoo: I saw jonah goldberg on the daily show and I wasn't impressed with his arguments |
| 06:55.25 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: You mean like a virtual jail? |
| 06:55.38 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: I like that quote. Easy to use against him. |
| 06:55.50 | fozzmoo | tensai: So far, I've found his book quite good. |
| 06:56.00 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: I'm paraphrasing, of course. |
| 06:56.12 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: I'm joking anyway. |
| 06:56.15 | tensai | fozzmoo: hopefully he writes better than he interviews |
| 06:56.18 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 06:56.40 | fozzmoo | tensai: plus, I would think the Daily Show... isn't really home turf for Mr. Goldberg |
| 06:57.17 | levi | RedHeron: Anyway, communism is pretty far out of the political bell curve here, so we don't get a lot of pro/anti communist debates. Mostly we get debates on the few things that separate the Rebublicans from Democrats. They don't tend to be quite as substantive or well-founded. |
| 06:57.25 | tensai | fozzmoo: definitely not. perhaps he was nervous or flustered. he didn't make any cohesive statements. |
| 06:57.28 | RedHeron | Price of gasoline increases = higher prices for transportation = higher cost of goods = inflation... we really need to eliminate our dependence on gasoline. |
| 06:57.38 | RedHeron | levi: I know 4 communists in Utah. |
| 06:58.06 | levi | RedHeron: Out of how many people that you know? |
| 06:58.10 | RedHeron | levi: By comparison, I know around 60 democrats and well over 100 Republicans. |
| 06:58.23 | fozzmoo | I can see it going something like this: Jon Stewart: "So you think Obama is the next Hitler?" Jonah: "No, I'm not say..." Jon: "That's just great. Thanks for dropping in today." |
| 06:58.36 | RedHeron | levi: The arguments in favor of communism are compelling until you start taking into account the arguments against it. |
| 06:59.11 | tensai | http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=147884&title=jonah-goldberg |
| 06:59.13 | brac | [Jonah Goldberg | The Daily Show | Comedy Central] |
| 06:59.20 | RedHeron | levi: It's a matter of understanding the differences and seeing that we're headed into a despotic regime that worries me, because a year ago I only knew 2 communists. |
| 06:59.21 | fozzmoo | Cool. thanks. |
| 07:00.48 | levi | RedHeron: Right. I think it's important to see the arguments for and against different things. If you get too entrenched in any given camp, the echo chamber gets so strong that all of the arguments against it start to look inconsequential. |
| 07:01.16 | RedHeron | levi: That's the purpose for arguing earlier, was to gauge exactly that. |
| 07:01.29 | levi | RedHeron: And you don't even realize it's happened to you. |
| 07:01.40 | tensai | fozzmoo: of late I find myself not so much impressed by what the democrats have to say, but that the current crop of republicans have really turned me off |
| 07:02.17 | fozzmoo | tensai: I understand completely. |
| 07:02.43 | fozzmoo | The democrats are getting by quite well by saying lots of... well, not much. |
| 07:03.01 | RedHeron | levi: Most don't. If someone said something against Obama that I found out was actually based in fact, I'd take a serious look at it. In fact, I have (the whole "Obama voted to extend the PATRIOT Act" meme, for example). But what entrenches me is the fact that he doesn't flinch when he's wrong: he head into it and takes his lumps. |
| 07:03.04 | fozzmoo | You can listen to Obama talk for 30 minutes without hearing a single policy statement. |
| 07:03.15 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Oh? |
| 07:03.40 | fozzmoo | Yeah- his speeches, while well written and very well-delivered, are lacking in substance. |
| 07:03.40 | RedHeron | Got a 30-minute speech to prove that remark? |
| 07:03.57 | fozzmoo | Not handy. :) |
| 07:04.18 | levi | I've been somewhat disappointed in the Democrats in Congress now. |
| 07:04.20 | RedHeron | Having listened to almost *all* of Obama's speech, I find that statement dubious. |
| 07:04.46 | tensai | levi: I know. grow a backbone already. what is it about bush that they just won't stand up to him? |
| 07:04.58 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: It's probably all a blur to you then. |
| 07:05.08 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Not really. I actually took notes. |
| 07:05.28 | levi | tensai: Almost makes one start reaching for conspiracy theories. ;) |
| 07:06.11 | tensai | a big part of it is that nobody wants to be seen as weak on terror. we have to do *something* even if it's pointless and based on fear rather than reason. |
| 07:06.14 | tensai | makes me sick |
| 07:06.25 | vontrapp | tensai: me too |
| 07:06.25 | RedHeron | levi: I'm disappointed with both Dems and GOP's. |
| 07:06.47 | RedHeron | tensai: "politics of fear" in Obama-speak. |
| 07:07.31 | levi | RedHeron: Well, if I am disappointed in the Dems, it's a given that I am disappointed in the GOPs, since that disappointment is what gave the Dems the majority. |
| 07:07.54 | RedHeron | levi: It's why I'm not a member of either party. :D |
| 07:08.00 | levi | If I was pleased with the GOPs, I'd also be pleased with the meekness of the Dems. :) |
| 07:08.15 | RedHeron | levi: The Dems are weakened because of lobby monies. |
| 07:10.55 | fozzmoo | tensai: Jon's first counter to Jonah (after he asks if anything in the book is actually Jonah's work) illustrates exactly what Jonah writes about in the book- the idea that fascism is a phenomenon that only occurs within the right- is a misconception that the first part of the book addresses head-on. |
| 07:11.36 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Fascism is merely another name for corporatism (the merging of corporation and government). |
| 07:11.53 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: *buzzer* wrong. |
| 07:12.03 | fozzmoo | If that were true, Hitler is no longer a fascist. |
| 07:12.20 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Hitler wasn't a fascist. He was a socialist extremist despot. |
| 07:12.28 | fozzmoo | Nor was Mussolini. |
| 07:12.55 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Moussolini was a fascist, and a despot. And that was Moussolini's quote. |
| 07:13.12 | RedHeron | "Fascism is merely another name for corporatism (the merging of corporation and government)." (Moussolini) |
| 07:13.21 | fozzmoo | It's Mussolini. |
| 07:13.24 | RedHeron | And that's a paraphrase. |
| 07:14.00 | RedHeron | Sorry, misspelled the name, but the point is that fascism is a pretty specific thing. |
| 07:14.18 | fozzmoo | No, it's not. |
| 07:14.27 | fozzmoo | It may have been at one time. |
| 07:14.30 | RedHeron | Fasism isn't specific? |
| 07:14.31 | fozzmoo | But it isn't anymore. |
| 07:14.40 | RedHeron | It has to have a definition. |
| 07:14.46 | RedHeron | Or it's meaningless. |
| 07:14.46 | levi | Now it's been redefined, so it can be used as a slur against people we don't like. |
| 07:14.50 | fozzmoo | no, it's become a very difficult thing to nail, partly because so many people use the term to sling mud at people they don't like. |
| 07:15.07 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: I'm talking about the actual definition, not the political slur. |
| 07:15.13 | levi | "I don't like your policies, so I will call you a fascist!" |
| 07:15.57 | fozzmoo | tensai: Yeah, the Daily Show thing didn't go well. Possibly because the host and the audience really were not receptive to the set up in the first place. |
| 07:15.59 | RedHeron | To be fair, the Bush administration is fascist. Clinton-era politics were not fascist, though they were more oppressive (even if benevolent). |
| 07:16.15 | RedHeron | I positively hate both of them. |
| 07:16.45 | RedHeron | But only one acts in a capacity that fits the definition of what fascism actually is. |
| 07:16.48 | tensai | fozzmoo: I would like to see the entire interview |
| 07:16.58 | fozzmoo | yeah. |
| 07:17.52 | RedHeron | Fascism = corporatism, and Mussolini was fascist. Hitler was not. |
| 07:18.22 | RedHeron | Hitler, however, was far more oppressive and generally less benevolent besides. |
| 07:18.50 | fozzmoo | "Can we air... any of this?" Jon says at the end. |
| 07:18.53 | RedHeron | And the fact that he was socialist leads me to believe they were headed into a kind of communist ideal. |
| 07:19.14 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 07:19.22 | RedHeron | Stalin was a fascist, since state took over corporate interests entirely. |
| 07:19.33 | RedHeron | Mao was a fascist, for the same reasons. |
| 07:19.44 | fozzmoo | And Hugo Chavez, by that definition. |
| 07:20.00 | RedHeron | Any pattern emerging that you can see? |
| 07:20.14 | RedHeron | Communists tend to be fascist, but it's an overall tendency, not a hard fact. |
| 07:20.33 | fozzmoo | tensai: An entertaining piece, nonetheless. |
| 07:20.34 | tensai | fozzmoo: what I like about TDS is that the bias is so obvious. they make no bones about it. |
| 07:20.38 | RedHeron | Still, the idea in our country is that communism = fascism. |
| 07:20.56 | tensai | makes it easier to extract the facts |
| 07:21.02 | RedHeron | tensai: That's almost the precise reason I don't watch television. |
| 07:21.31 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: But then why do the "Bushitler" people call Bush and Cheney fascists? They're just mudslinging? |
| 07:22.15 | fozzmoo | Goldberg says in TDS interview that is one of the reasons he wrote the book- to explain that fascism, before the term was stigmatized, was actually embraced by progressives. |
| 07:22.18 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Bush does act fascist, but they are merely, in fact, mud-slinging because they never give facts that back up their fascist claim... though plenty about oppression. |
| 07:26.01 | fozzmoo | I'm no fan of Bush, but I can hardly go along with saying that he's fascistic. An ineffective leader and poor communicator, sure. Fascist? Not so much. |
| 07:26.43 | fozzmoo | I would even agree with those that say he's imperilialistic before that. |
| 07:26.52 | RedHeron | Fascist, because he keeps giving strong support to corporate interests over those of civil liberties... thus by actual definition. |
| 07:27.14 | fozzmoo | By corporate interests... you mean... national security? |
| 07:27.28 | RedHeron | Since when is national security a corporate interest? |
| 07:27.34 | Supaplex | ibot: autocreatepeer |
| 07:27.35 | fozzmoo | Exactly. |
| 07:27.53 | RedHeron | The answer: since AT&T was offered immunity for breaking the law. |
| 07:28.09 | fozzmoo | I know nothing about AT&T and immunity. |
| 07:28.23 | fozzmoo | How does that tie in to civil liberties? |
| 07:28.30 | RedHeron | You know nothing about AT&T and warrantless wiretapping? |
| 07:28.32 | Sargun | O.o |
| 07:28.55 | Supaplex | fozzmoo: did you mean, what liberties? |
| 07:29.08 | levi | Here's Umberto Eco's take on fascism: http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html |
| 07:29.11 | brac | [Eco - "Eternal Fascism: 14 Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt"] |
| 07:29.22 | Supaplex | if your every move is monitored, you're not free |
| 07:29.24 | RedHeron | The support of "national security" is the age-old cry of the oppressor. And the fact is, when the government sponsors breaking of the law so that it can profit by circumventing the Fourth Amendment, that's fascism. |
| 07:29.46 | RedHeron | At least, where its involvement with a mega-corporation is concerned. |
| 07:30.06 | fozzmoo | A lot of civil liberties have been suspended in times of war by various presidents. |
| 07:30.22 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Name one who has done as much as Bush to curtail civil liberties. |
| 07:30.30 | fozzmoo | Lincoln probably did more than anyone. |
| 07:30.36 | RedHeron | I mean come on: suspension of habeas corpus? |
| 07:30.41 | fozzmoo | he shut down the press! |
| 07:31.18 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Is that more or less than suppressing free speech today? |
| 07:31.59 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Are your civil liberties being withheld from you? |
| 07:32.15 | fozzmoo | only if you make a phone call to Libya. |
| 07:32.29 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Bush effectively did that, and also suspended habeas corpus, circumvented 6 of the first 10 amendments, and has virtually eliminated justice from the equation, all on the grounds of "fighting terrorism". |
| 07:33.03 | tensai | fozzmoo: it's not quite that simple. for one, they won't divulge many details so nobody really knows what is being tapped. |
| 07:33.49 | RedHeron | My name is on a list of people who are "suspected seditious" at the FBI, because of my vocality against Bush. |
| 07:33.53 | fozzmoo | tensai: And I don't really expect them to. If they divulge their strategies to the public, they might as well give our enemies the "cheat codes" |
| 07:34.03 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Congratulations. |
| 07:34.11 | levi | Here's another analysis of defining points of fascist regimes: http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2 |
| 07:34.16 | tensai | fozzmoo: some conjecture that how it is set up makes tapping just international calls impossible. strictly domestic calls are likely being tapped as well. |
| 07:34.45 | fozzmoo | tensai: Well, it is a government program, after all. You can't expect pinpoint accuracy with those big thumbs. |
| 07:34.49 | tensai | fozzmoo: they won't even divulge them to congress. something smells fishy about that. |
| 07:35.07 | fozzmoo | tensai: That's fishy. Sure. |
| 07:35.15 | RedHeron | tensai: I don't make international calls, as a general rule. I've made 3 in the past year, all due to my job. |
| 07:35.42 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Did you talk like Apu? |
| 07:36.09 | fozzmoo | Maybe they've got that super fancy AI detecting accents. |
| 07:36.12 | RedHeron | tensai: And I'm on that list because I dared to speak to a pro-Bush supporter who worked for the FBI about my political agenda, so that they could ascertain whether or not I was using "my" political party (which isn't "mine" any more than the whole country is "mine") to break the law. |
| 07:37.11 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Someone should have explained to you some time ago that in a time of heighten security tensions, it's probably best to fly BELOW the radar. |
| 07:37.18 | RedHeron | When it was clear that they couldn't shut us down for breaking the law (because we weren't), they put me on a list of extremist radicals in order to try to prevent me from running for office (which I didn't plan on anyway). |
| 07:38.11 | levi | Ahh, it's all become clear to me now. You're the Pirate Party guy. |
| 07:38.12 | Sargun | o.O |
| 07:38.23 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: "Those who would trade civil liberties for a little added security, will [achieve] neither liberty nor security." (Ben Franklin) |
| 07:38.30 | RedHeron | levi: Yes, I am. |
| 07:38.43 | RedHeron | levi: I'm also now a national officer. |
| 07:39.01 | fozzmoo | levi: That secularhumanism article looks good. |
| 07:39.27 | levi | Did you read the Eco one? |
| 07:39.27 | Sargun | The leader of the pirate party is utahnian |
| 07:39.43 | RedHeron | Sargun: I'm not "the" leader, I'm on the national board. |
| 07:39.55 | RedHeron | Sargun: The leader lives in Georgia. |
| 07:40.00 | Sargun | A leader |
| 07:40.21 | fozzmoo | levi: doing that now. |
| 07:40.25 | RedHeron | Sargun: More like "assistant pion". |
| 07:40.56 | levi | Eco takes a different approach. |
| 07:41.01 | RedHeron | I sit on the national board, but I'm not the one giving out the orders. |
| 07:41.54 | levi | Eco is a crazy-smart guy. |
| 07:42.02 | fozzmoo | levi: yeah- both seem to be defining fascism by finding commonalities in historically fascist regimes. |
| 07:42.18 | levi | He's also Italian. |
| 07:42.30 | fozzmoo | I like Eco's better than the other one. |
| 07:43.09 | fozzmoo | levi: Good luck on the talk. |
| 07:43.10 | levi | He's certainly got more first-hand knowledge. |
| 07:43.11 | fozzmoo | g'night. |
| 07:43.14 | levi | G'night. |
| 07:43.31 | RedHeron | levi: Eco? |
| 07:44.07 | RedHeron | I saw the link for the SecularHumanism.org article, but not Eco's. |
| 07:44.26 | tensai | -urls |
| 07:44.27 | brac | [2008/02/17 00:34:15] <levi> http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2 |
| 07:44.27 | brac | [2008/02/17 00:29:10] <levi> http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html |
| 07:44.27 | brac | [2008/02/16 23:59:13] <tensai> http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=147884&title=jonah-goldberg |
| 07:44.27 | brac | [2008/02/16 22:32:09] <herlo> http://tinyurl.com/3awplw |
| 07:44.37 | RedHeron | Thx. |
| 07:45.12 | RedHeron | Somehow my mental filter ignored it. |
| 07:45.21 | tensai | oh. it's against the rules to sell body parts on craigslist. and I went to all the effort to get this kidney out. what am I going to do with it now? |
| 07:46.04 | RedHeron | tensai: eBay Brasilia? |
| 07:46.24 | RedHeron | I hear it's not illegal there. |
| 07:46.35 | RedHeron | Though, to be fair, customs is gonna be a pain. |
| 07:47.01 | tensai | I'm not going through that trouble. I'll just leave it here in the bathtub for this poor guy to find. maybe the doctors can put it back. |
| 07:47.16 | RedHeron | LOL |
| 07:47.32 | RedHeron | Geez, that would be horrible if true. |
| 07:50.41 | tensai | well, gotta scram before the cops show |
| 07:51.41 | RedHeron | What was that address again? |
| 07:53.36 | levi | RedHeron: So, what did you think of the Eco essay? |
| 07:54.11 | RedHeron | Still reading and processing... he makes several interesting points, and I'm still deciding whether or not to accept some of the things said as valid. |
| 07:54.27 | RedHeron | A few minor leaps in logic, but nothing that I can't really see as invalid. |
| 07:54.35 | RedHeron | Er... |
| 07:54.40 | RedHeron | s/can't/can |
| 07:55.22 | RedHeron | s/invalid/valid/ |
| 07:55.23 | levi | Well, considering he's got a degree in semiotics and lived through fascist Italy, I think he's a pretty good source. |
| 07:56.02 | RedHeron | Well, living in it doesn't mean he's an expert... as I said, I'm not really taking the appeal to authority on this one, I'm taking a very critical approach. |
| 07:57.03 | RedHeron | Overall, a well-written article with overall good logic. |
| 07:58.12 | RedHeron | However, I'm seeing an equating of fascism to ultra-conservatism, and I'm not sure that's actually a fair assessment, since most Communists aren't traditionalist, even when fascist. |
| 07:58.39 | RedHeron | It's something worth looking into further, for sure, though. |
| 08:00.14 | levi | Well, he didn't just live through it; he lived through it *and* he's an extremely diligent student of history, though he was primarily a medievalist. |
| 08:01.55 | RedHeron | Right, and it looks like he actually does a great job with heraldic symbology, but the question is one of whether or not the symbols he's using are in fact valid equating functions. |
| 08:02.48 | RedHeron | If not, it's still an interesting piece, and worth giving to people to think about, but it reduces it to propagandism instead of having academic value. |
| 08:04.07 | RedHeron | The syntactic relation of ultra-conservatism to fascism seems counterpoint. |
| 08:04.15 | levi | He doesn't say they're equating functions, he says they're characteristics. |
| 08:05.13 | levi | And what syntactic relation does 'ultra-conservatism' have to 'fascism'? |
| 08:06.32 | levi | (do you really mean 'syntactic' there?) |
| 08:06.34 | RedHeron | That's the point... he makes a relationary observation that the two are interrelated, but in fact they are counterpoint to one another. His idea of "Ur-Fascism" seems to be more of a political slur than the use of definition, but he's also talking from the perspective of someone who watched Mussolini in action. |
| 08:06.56 | RedHeron | Sorry, no, I meant semantic. |
| 08:07.10 | RedHeron | semantic within a syntax. |
| 08:07.30 | RedHeron | Bah, I must be tired... I know what I meant, I'm having a hard time expressing. |
| 08:07.46 | RedHeron | Wow... 1am... yep, it's past bedtime. |
| 08:08.25 | RedHeron | I'd better hit the sack, as I have to be awake again in just under 6 hours to get ready for my weekly religious debate. |
| 08:08.32 | levi | Heh. |
| 08:08.39 | levi | Have fun. |
| 08:08.46 | RedHeron | Thanks, and have a good night. |
| 08:25.37 | Sargun | o.O |
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| 13:51.21 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 13:54.12 | bonez44 | greetings |
| 13:59.14 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanr@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
| 14:40.15 | *** join/#utah tristanbob (n=tristanr@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
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| 16:09.13 | findlay | man, the Joseph Smith manual URL's are UGLY |
| 16:09.21 | findlay | I can't even wget a single chapter |
| 16:16.08 | herlo | findlay: put them inside these ' |
| 16:16.17 | herlo | then do -O filename |
| 16:19.06 | findlay | herlo: for some reason it serves an empty page when I wget it |
| 16:19.17 | findlay | I think it expects some kind of java session or something |
| 16:19.23 | herlo | findlay: are their & in it? |
| 16:19.31 | herlo | oh, its probably cookes |
| 16:19.32 | herlo | cookies |
| 16:19.36 | herlo | you can save those too |
| 16:19.55 | herlo | --load-cookies file |
| 16:20.19 | findlay | ugh, cookies |
| 16:20.21 | herlo | findlay: what you have to do is first open one of the pages in your browser, then get the cookie from your cookies.html, or just copy that file or point to it |
| 16:20.36 | herlo | findlay: yeah, I know I know |
| 16:21.04 | findlay | :) |
| 16:22.00 | findlay | hey, what do you know, no empty page if I escape the URL string :) |
| 16:26.58 | herlo | findlay: that's what I said the first time |
| 16:27.04 | herlo | put them inside ' |
| 16:27.07 | herlo | '' |
| 16:27.18 | herlo | works the same |
| 16:27.22 | herlo | :) |
| 16:37.56 | elg | which versions of office, if any, support the opendocument format? |
| 16:52.21 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@c-67-186-212-118.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:56.44 | Tene | First time through security wearing glasses, and nobody hassled me at all. |
| 16:56.45 | Tene | I didn't even get any suspicious looks |
| 16:57.35 | vontrapp | glasses are suspicious? |
| 16:58.55 | Tene | I get harassed and searched almost half the time in airport security |
| 17:03.54 | vontrapp | ah, so glasses are anti-suspicious |
| 17:04.00 | vontrapp | congratulations :) |
| 17:45.39 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 18:26.22 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | If I were to go for hardware raid/sata, what controller would you recommend? I'm looking for hotswap capability. |
| 18:31.19 | Sargun | A) How much are you willing to spend? |
| 18:31.25 | Sargun | B) Server/Desktop/???? |
| 18:31.33 | Sargun | C) What interface: SATA/SCSI/ATA |
| 18:31.50 | Sargun | Linux compatible? |
| 18:34.44 | herlo | $3 |
| 18:35.26 | Sargun | herlo, Ok, do this. Buy a firecracker which looks like a grenade. |
| 18:35.35 | Sargun | Walk into a warehouse full of RAID controllers |
| 18:35.45 | Sargun | light the firecracker, throw it at security |
| 18:35.51 | Sargun | grab all the raid controllers, and run |
| 18:35.58 | Sargun | until you get shot through the chest |
| 18:36.49 | herlo | Sargun: haha, you are funny |
| 18:37.17 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | yes, linux compatible. I wouldn't want to spend much more than $100, as it is for a home server. |
| 18:37.37 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | and I'm poor |
| 18:38.11 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | I do have a raid card already, but I didn't get it for the raid functionality-- I got it because I needed a sata interface. |
| 18:38.57 | Sargun | uhhhhhh.... |
| 18:39.07 | Sargun | dude, just software RAID it |
| 18:39.15 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | hotswap |
| 18:39.44 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | I don't think software raid does hotswap. |
| 18:39.47 | Sargun | yeah, your software raid can hotswap my good friend. |
| 18:39.50 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | cool |
| 18:39.54 | Sargun | [well, I barely know you, but..] |
| 18:40.08 | Sargun | you just have to bring up the dive with like, 20 commands, once you plug it in :-P |
| 18:40.17 | Sargun | and you have to make sure your SATA controller does HotSWAP |
| 18:41.01 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | ok |
| 18:41.12 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | what is a recommended sata controller that can do hotswap? |
| 18:44.37 | mrpull-x | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:44.53 | mrpull-x | it is a home server right? who'll complain about the downtime from a reboot? |
| 18:46.16 | Sargun | his older sister who still lives with him? |
| 18:47.16 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | why must people question my motives? I want hardware raid... big deal! |
| 18:47.46 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | I'm aware of other options, but I like playing with cool stuff too! |
| 18:47.56 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | true hardware raid is cool! |
| 18:49.04 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | alright, I am building a server for my company, which is small and thus has a small budget. What card/chipset do you recommend for hardware sata raid? |
| 18:49.25 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | the requirement comes from above me, but I have to use hardware raid. |
| 18:49.43 | Sargun | but your poor. |
| 18:49.53 | Sargun | err |
| 18:49.56 | Sargun | your company is poor |
| 18:50.03 | Sargun | :-P |
| 18:50.05 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | that's why I'm seeking advice to see what the best bang for my buck would be. :) |
| 18:50.18 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | If $100 isn't practical for a decent card, then what is? |
| 18:50.26 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | what ballpark do I need to shoot for? |
| 18:50.34 | Sargun | PRoGRaMMeRQ, No, I have a nice card for $150 |
| 18:50.48 | Sargun | that's only because my vendor loves me |
| 18:50.52 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | I've heard good things about 3ware, but they seem to be quite expensive. |
| 18:51.03 | Sargun | 3ware is pretty kick ass |
| 18:51.19 | Sargun | We have a couple of them at work |
| 18:51.20 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | I like the power of their tw_cli command. |
| 18:51.41 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | what card is it that you have? |
| 18:54.36 | Sargun | uhhh |
| 18:54.38 | Sargun | I have a 3ware |
| 18:54.45 | Sargun | plus a couple of these Dell adapters |
| 18:54.53 | Sargun | I don't remember what they're called |
| 18:55.03 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | are they decent? |
| 18:55.33 | Sargun | Yeah |
| 20:26.49 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 20:32.41 | lakshmi | hey ya'll |
| 20:41.29 | *** topic/#utah by Sargun -> Off Topic and Beyond | http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ |
| 20:41.39 | Sargun | Weird vday junk |
| 20:41.45 | Sargun | and badgers... |
| 20:41.53 | Sargun | wasting the bandwidth on the internets. |
| 21:28.04 | *** join/#utah mecworks_ (n=marc@wap.mecworks.com) |
| 21:52.38 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@michmax.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 22:55.12 | sargun_screen | hi |
| 23:00.52 | findlay | hello |
| 23:01.05 | findlay | ~topic sargun_screen |
| 23:09.11 | findlay | ~random |
| 23:09.32 | findlay | ~kill stuff |
| 23:09.33 | ibot | ACTION shoots a charged anti-graviton gun at stuff |
| 23:09.50 | findlay | ~say -chat ~say -chat |
| 23:09.50 | ibot | -chat ~say -chat |
| 23:09.53 | brac | ~say -chat ~say -chat die |
| 23:09.53 | ibot | -chat ~say -chat die |
| 23:09.54 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 23:10.01 | lakshmi | ~entertain findlay |
| 23:10.01 | ibot | ACTION shows findlay a 9 legged hippo collection while scuba dancing |
| 23:10.47 | findlay | ~lag |
| 23:10.48 | ibot | lag is, like, very bad here :( |
| 23:11.01 | findlay | ~stuff |
| 23:11.01 | ibot | ACTION is stuffing George* |
| 23:11.11 | findlay | ~lakshmi |
| 23:50.33 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 23:52.32 | *** join/#utah markl_ (n=mark@c-24-10-221-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |