| 00:01.34 | justingiboney | i have used OneButton FTP, and SmartFTP and they just close the connection after a minute of trying to connect |
| 00:02.22 | justingiboney | and i created this new user but it can see all the files on the machine, how do I restrict that? |
| 00:04.26 | justingiboney | if i type cd while logged in as the user it says /home/newuser: No such file or directory |
| 00:15.42 | rsimpkins | justingiboney: what ftp server are you using? |
| 00:17.24 | justingiboney | i have proftpd installed, but I don't know if i have another one installed, and i can't find anything about the user that works in the .conf file |
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| 00:21.42 | rsimpkins | :( I think Matt Asay is going to cancel due to the very poor driving conditions. |
| 00:35.18 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 00:35.24 | elg | i have a red lobster gift card. what's best there? |
| 00:35.39 | Tadaka | storm still blowing down in provo area? |
| 00:37.17 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: That might be best for everyone. |
| 00:37.18 | Supaplex | it's not very windy in clearfield now |
| 00:37.30 | fozzmoo | I can barely see the next house out my window. |
| 00:37.33 | fozzmoo | (In Riverton) |
| 00:38.49 | Supaplex | ~lart spotty synergy connection |
| 00:38.49 | ibot | stamps spotty synergy connection on the forehead with the official Troll marker |
| 00:39.04 | Tadaka | supaplex: yea, I'm in layton and it is a LOT clearer now |
| 00:39.56 | Tadaka | since it had mellowed out up here, was wondering how down south was doing |
| 00:48.26 | rsimpkins | Here is the PLUG update.... |
| 00:48.37 | rsimpkins | We are still going to have Jared Ottley come present on alfresco. |
| 00:48.48 | rsimpkins | However, if you are driving through the slush you may want to re-think. |
| 00:49.04 | rsimpkins | We will reschedule Matt, and possibly Jared as well if very few people show up. |
| 00:49.24 | rsimpkins | We do have hot-chocolate available if you don't mind driving in the slush and want to come shoot some pool with Jared. |
| 00:50.01 | rsimpkins | The fewer the people, the more cozy the event I suppose. |
| 00:50.11 | elg | -metar klru |
| 00:50.12 | brac | KLRU 140034Z AUTO 18008KT 10SM CLR 20/M08 A2980 RMK AO2 |
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| 00:59.37 | Heartsbane | 2 semis jack knifed on the point of the mountain |
| 00:59.52 | Supaplex | yuck |
| 01:00.49 | sjansen | Plug is bad luck. Weather was pretty bad for the last Plug meeting too. |
| 01:01.25 | Heartsbane | U of U is cancelling classes because dangerous road conditions |
| 01:01.34 | Heartsbane | Python might be a bust too |
| 01:01.56 | Supaplex | ~snow utah |
| 01:01.56 | ibot | ACTION gets a bunch of white paper dots and shreds and flies over utah in a helicopter, dropping them incessantly |
| 01:22.39 | levi | There's no snow on the freeways from Pleasant Grove on south. |
| 01:23.03 | mrpull | levi: can you report north of PG? |
| 01:23.11 | levi | mrpull: Really freaking bad. |
| 01:23.30 | mrpull | poop. I'm in west jordan heading to lehi. I may wait a bit longer. |
| 01:23.31 | levi | I drove from Sandy to Orem. |
| 01:23.44 | tensai | if you keep going north the roads are pretty good in idaho falls |
| 01:23.59 | levi | It took me about an hour to get from 90th S to Lehi. |
| 01:24.55 | levi | tensai: Except I15 is completely closed between here and there. :) |
| 01:25.34 | tensai | glad I'm not stuck on one of those roads then |
| 01:25.41 | tensai | sure would have liked to see alfresco in action |
| 01:25.58 | levi | mrpull: I think the slowdown at the point of the mountain southbound is due to people rubbernecking the jacknifed semis on the other side of the freeway. :/ |
| 01:26.15 | mrpull | fantastic. |
| 01:26.28 | mrpull | I'm always surprised that bangerter doesn't get more attention from the snowplows. |
| 01:26.33 | levi | Speed incresed from ~2mph or so to ~25mph at the point of the accident. |
| 01:26.58 | mrpull | a couple storms back they roads were the same at 7AM on the way in as they were at 6PM on the way out the night before |
| 01:27.47 | levi | Bangerter is just an all-around bad road. |
| 01:43.13 | fozzmoo | If I were Norm Bangerter, I'd ask my name be taken off the road. |
| 01:44.18 | Supaplex | what time did the sunset today? |
| 01:49.41 | RyanE | yeah, they also closed S.R. 92 all the way from the freeway to Highland/Alpine. |
| 01:49.48 | RyanE | I had to come home through Lehi. |
| 01:50.35 | RyanE | I don't know if the southbound slowness is due to rubbernecking, I couldn't even *see* the other side of the freeway when I went through. |
| 01:54.07 | *** join/#utah Jayce (n=jayce@64.0.192.139) |
| 01:54.08 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce] by ChanServ |
| 01:54.18 | Supaplex | sup Jayce |
| 01:54.24 | Supaplex | make it home? :) |
| 01:54.27 | Jayce | ~ping rsimpkins |
| 01:54.27 | ibot | pong rsimpkins |
| 01:54.37 | Jayce | Supaplex, didn't go home, it's plug night |
| 01:54.46 | Supaplex | ouuu okay. |
| 01:55.42 | Jayce | hey rsimpkins I'm in ur lobby, uzing ur innertubes |
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| 02:05.52 | jsmith | vontrapp: I'm warm, inside, with a hoodie on, hood not on head, heater set on 72, sitting in front of the fire |
| 02:09.19 | vontrapp | ~shoot jsmith |
| 02:09.19 | ibot | ACTION shoots jsmith in the eye with a frozen turkey cannon! |
| 02:09.29 | vontrapp | gotta love descriptive commits, such as "changed some things" |
| 02:20.22 | vontrapp | heh, now this guy just gave up on naming them at all |
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| 03:12.34 | goozbach | vontrapp: that's better than a commit of "" |
| 03:12.56 | vontrapp | there were some that were "" |
| 03:13.19 | vontrapp | there was this one series, "still trying to fix such and such bug" |
| 03:13.22 | vontrapp | "still still" |
| 03:13.35 | vontrapp | "still still still"... up to six "still"s |
| 03:13.48 | goozbach | heh |
| 03:22.47 | vontrapp | not sure if that's good or bad |
| 03:23.26 | Supaplex | nope |
| 03:23.34 | Supaplex | ;) |
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| 04:40.12 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
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| 05:03.21 | lakshmi | did you know at 17 you can legally pilot a plane? |
| 05:05.03 | tripzero | nice |
| 05:06.06 | tripzero | apparently you can drive a car at 65mph and even an airplane but you can't walk down a hill without an adult |
| 05:06.52 | levi | So, I hope none of the PLUGgers are on Lehi Main St. right now. |
| 05:07.14 | RyanE | or SR-92 |
| 05:07.27 | tripzero | why did SR-92 close? |
| 05:07.47 | RyanE | lakshmi: so where can you not walk down a hill? I must've missed some comments there... |
| 05:07.53 | RyanE | blowing snow across the road. |
| 05:07.57 | levi | Ooh, Jayce was at PLUG and needs to get to Eagle Mountain. He's out of luck. :( |
| 05:07.59 | RyanE | whiteout from Micron to the freeway |
| 05:08.10 | lakshmi | idk i was reading this |
| 05:08.20 | lakshmi | http://www.connexions-direct.com/index.cfm?catalogueContentID=176&pid=161&render=detailedArticle |
| 05:08.25 | RyanE | levi: yeah, apparently, people have abandoned their cars on the road west of Lehi, so the plows can't get through. |
| 05:08.37 | levi | RyanE: Yeah, 40 cars abandoned. |
| 05:08.44 | levi | And there was a 16-car pileup earlier in the day. |
| 05:08.54 | levi | There are kids stuck in busses still. |
| 05:09.14 | RyanE | levi: yeah, I heard about that, 2 busses in Highland. |
| 05:09.27 | RyanE | from the school where I voted last week. |
| 05:15.48 | levi | I got lucky. I was able to take back streets to my house. |
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| 05:16.06 | levi | There just isn't any good way out to Eagle Mountain or beyond. |
| 05:18.02 | RyanE | levi: so what exit did you get off? |
| 05:19.26 | levi | American Fork's Main St. |
| 05:20.09 | RyanE | Was the main st. Lehi closed? |
| 05:21.11 | levi | It's not technically closed, but it's practically at a standstill. |
| 05:21.27 | levi | Plus, traffic just past the American Fork exit on the freeway was stopped. |
| 05:24.30 | rsimpkins | So, people are finally starting to trickle back to the office. |
| 05:24.48 | rsimpkins | after three hours on stuck on the freeway. |
| 05:25.36 | RyanE | ouch. |
| 05:26.21 | rsimpkins | They are going to sleep on the couch. |
| 05:27.07 | tensai | that sounds like loads of fun |
| 05:27.11 | levi | rsimpkins: Did Jayce leave? |
| 05:27.15 | rsimpkins | Yeah. |
| 05:27.19 | rsimpkins | Quite a while ago. |
| 05:27.31 | rsimpkins | I hope no one got stranded. |
| 05:27.34 | levi | Well, it looks like Main St. traffic finally started moving again. |
| 05:27.44 | rsimpkins | Had I known it would have been this bad I would have cancled PLUG. |
| 05:27.49 | tensai | levi: can you see it or are you hearing news reports? |
| 05:28.00 | levi | tensai: I can see Main St. from the back of my house. |
| 05:28.26 | rsimpkins | levi: So, I need to get off at the american fork main street exit - any chance of that happening? |
| 05:28.27 | levi | I also have a sister in law that's been stuck trying to get out to Cedar Valley. |
| 05:28.38 | levi | rsimpkins: That's how I got home. |
| 05:28.58 | levi | rsimpkins: That was moving just fine. |
| 05:29.12 | rsimpkins | levi: Okay.. I might give it just a touch longer then head out. |
| 05:29.49 | levi | Should be fine right now, so traffic isn't a reason to wait. |
| 05:30.57 | levi | Heh, the backordered earbuds I ordered right before Christmas finally shipped. |
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| 05:33.38 | levi | rsimpkins: Hmm, according to commuterlink, there's a really slow stretch of freeway around PG/American Fork. |
| 05:37.32 | levi | Main St. traffic is moving, but it's very slow. |
| 05:37.47 | RyanE | I think you can say that about pretty much every street in UT. Co. |
| 05:38.10 | levi | RyanE: Nah, State St. is pretty much empty. |
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| 06:06.37 | vontrapp | how do you get a relative path from the actual location of a php script? |
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| 06:43.43 | elg | so we're one episode away from finishing the first season of numb3rs |
| 06:44.32 | rsimpkins | levi: I made it home no prob. Been home about 30 mins. |
| 06:44.38 | rsimpkins | levi: thanks for checking it out. |
| 06:47.04 | vontrapp | elg: i don't know where we are, we've just been watching them as they come on tv, don't know if it's reruns or what |
| 06:47.18 | elg | we like it |
| 06:48.07 | elg | it's fun to see realish math concepts, even if the applications and timescales (you wrote a program to do *what* in 5 minutes?) aren't quite realistic |
| 06:48.58 | vontrapp | yeah, like he types on the keyboard for 5 seconds and reconstructs a face image from difractions through water |
| 06:50.08 | elg | but what can you say? the reality, that math and computers take long, hard, silent, boring to observe thinking sessions is beyond discussion, and it doesn't make good TV :) |
| 06:50.59 | vontrapp | :D |
| 07:07.10 | Supaplex | vontrapp: relative to the filesystem? the url/uri? php_info should have some clues. or __FILE__ iirc. |
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| 09:59.26 | lakshmi | hey |
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| 11:59.00 | *** topic/#utah is Off Topic and Beyond | http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | |
| 11:59.00 | *** mode/#utah [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 12:43.20 | lakshmi | ibot where did you go? |
| 12:43.20 | ibot | to hell and back. Saddam says "hi". |
| 12:43.38 | lakshmi | ibot, say hi |
| 12:43.38 | ibot | hi |
| 12:43.53 | lakshmi | ibot, say essays are evil |
| 12:43.53 | ibot | essays are evil |
| 12:43.57 | lakshmi | good ibot |
| 12:44.17 | lakshmi | bad ibot |
| 12:44.21 | lakshmi | ibot, good |
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| 14:32.51 | Supaplex | https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?id=365 |
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| 15:01.58 | atoponce | ~botsnack |
| 15:01.58 | ibot | aw, gee, atoponce |
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| 15:56.27 | tristanbob | does anyone here use arrivaltel for VOIP? if so, how do you rate your service? |
| 15:56.58 | tristanbob | I'm considering moving my church to voip, looking for a good company |
| 16:00.47 | jsmith | tristanbob: I've used arrivaltel for a couple of years now -- great service |
| 16:01.59 | tristanbob | jsmith, thanks for the feedback |
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| 16:02.39 | tensai | tristanbob: findlay uses them I believe. there was a rant a while back on plug about somebody who didn't like them. |
| 16:02.53 | findlay | I do |
| 16:03.16 | tensai | tristanbob: http://www.plug.org/pipermail/plug/2007-June/026444.html |
| 16:03.17 | brac | [VOIP Provider Again] |
| 16:03.20 | findlay | although I'm not sure they realize I'm in their configuration :-) |
| 16:03.27 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 16:03.41 | findlay | sometimes calls I make just won't go through |
| 16:03.47 | findlay | but I'm not sure why |
| 16:04.06 | tensai | findlay: perhaps they've blocked 900 numbers? |
| 16:04.23 | findlay | ask tensai or jsmith about how to decipher the flurry of packets mystery |
| 16:04.47 | findlay | tensai: no, these are ordinary numbers |
| 16:04.49 | tensai | findlay: post a call trace. I'll take a look. |
| 16:05.17 | tristanbob | tensai, shazaam! |
| 16:05.28 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> Off Topic and Beyond | http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | Happy Valentines Day! http://tinyurl.com/p2tm |
| 16:05.54 | tristanbob | findlay, they don't realize you are in their configuration, as in so you don't get a bill? :) |
| 16:06.03 | findlay | tristanbob: basically |
| 16:06.17 | findlay | it's a long story |
| 16:07.11 | findlay | tensai: where would I capture the packets? In asterisk? |
| 16:07.51 | findlay | I'll do a tcpdump too just in case |
| 16:08.22 | tensai | findlay: if you're using asterisk then yes. sip set debug ip <arrivaltel ip> |
| 16:08.37 | findlay | tensai: it's iax |
| 16:08.48 | jsmith | findlay: Then "iax set debug" |
| 16:09.15 | findlay | jsmith: well, yeah, just wondering whether that made any difference in the music of the packets :) |
| 16:09.29 | tensai | findlay: I'm not so familiar with iax although I'll give it a stab |
| 16:14.30 | findlay | tensai: 1.2 doesn't support the debug ip syntax |
| 16:14.52 | tensai | findlay: not for iax. just for sip. |
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| 16:15.20 | tensai | wait, I guess I'm using 1.4 |
| 16:16.58 | findlay | tensai: I have no sip connections |
| 16:17.26 | tensai | findlay: that's fine. just use iax2 set debug. |
| 16:19.14 | levi | Lots of abandoned cars along the side of the road today. |
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| 16:21.18 | levi | tristanbob: I use arrivaltel for VOIP. I generally like them. |
| 16:23.41 | tristanbob | levi, would you recommend them for a business phone connection? |
| 16:25.04 | levi | tristanbob: I think they're actually more oriented towards businesses. |
| 16:25.49 | tensai | levi: free cars! |
| 16:26.06 | fozzmoo | Cars want to be free! |
| 16:26.10 | levi | tensai: Except they've been buried by the snowplows. |
| 16:26.26 | tensai | free snow drifts! |
| 16:26.33 | levi | I love the snow tires I've got on my Miata. |
| 16:26.34 | dmdavis | with wheels |
| 16:26.46 | dmdavis | free mobile snow drifts! |
| 16:27.03 | levi | I was drifting sideways through all the turns last night. |
| 16:27.23 | Sargun | I use Teliax |
| 16:27.41 | levi | The tires would break loose as soon as I goosed the gas, and they'd hook right back up again as soon as I let off. |
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| 16:34.46 | findlay | tensai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/55894 |
| 16:36.05 | Supaplex | yumm yumm hot $breakfast |
| 16:37.43 | tensai | findlay: you're 3463 and were calling 7825? |
| 16:37.57 | elg | are bash variables able to contain multiple lines? |
| 16:37.58 | *** join/#utah RyanE (i=Piadas@rberick.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 16:37.59 | elg | e.g. if I do |
| 16:38.03 | elg | foo=`cat` |
| 16:38.07 | elg | what happens to the newlines? |
| 16:38.21 | elg | when I echo it, it's all on one line, but I/m not sure if that's echo's fault |
| 16:38.43 | findlay | tensai: yes |
| 16:39.40 | tensai | findlay: gotta run. I'll take a look when I return. |
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| 16:45.01 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Importance_of_Being_Earnest |
| 16:45.19 | goozbach | I gots me some pork chops and mashed taters.... |
| 16:45.24 | sjansen | If I had payed to see that play, I would track down the author, kick him in the shins, and demand my money back with interest. |
| 16:45.25 | goozbach | it's gonna be a great lunch! |
| 16:45.39 | elg | sjansen: you've never seen it? |
| 16:45.49 | elg | I haven't seen the play, but the movie is hilarious |
| 16:46.12 | sjansen | Nope. The title is great. Just used it in a template file. Which got me curious about the plot. |
| 16:46.38 | elg | http://imdb.com/title/tt0278500/ |
| 16:46.41 | brac | [The Importance of Being Earnest (2002)] |
| 16:46.53 | Supaplex | elg: iirc, they can contain newlines in heredocs |
| 16:47.17 | elg | Supaplex: ah, looks like echo $foo doesn't maintain whitespace, but echo "$foo" does |
| 16:47.27 | Supaplex | ohhh cool |
| 16:47.53 | elg | ok, now I have read a line with read |
| 16:48.00 | elg | and I want to strip off the first token |
| 16:48.25 | Supaplex | cut -f 2- | read |
| 16:48.50 | sjansen | elg: You've just discovered another reason for Stuart's Rule of... oh, never mind. |
| 16:48.56 | elg | incidentally, where does one find a decent syntax highlighting for bash in vim? I'm sick of vim calling $() errors |
| 16:50.50 | sjansen | elg: The full answer is: cut, awk or sed depending on the format of the data. |
| 16:52.04 | *** join/#utah emcnabb (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-dfc7d2a08f12b9b6) |
| 16:53.23 | elg | cut should do nicely |
| 17:05.33 | sjansen | Well, there goes our power. :-( |
| 17:06.08 | fozzmoo | sjansen: At guru? |
| 17:06.10 | sjansen | WORST. POWER COMPANY. EVER. |
| 17:06.35 | sjansen | Geez, what is it with Utah? A stiff breez causes power outages here. |
| 17:07.20 | Supaplex | sjansen: my power sagged earlier today. |
| 17:08.57 | sjansen | Yeah, I'm on a laptop and our data closet has UPS backup. Kinda annoying for the VMs I was playing with on classroom machines though. |
| 17:09.32 | sjansen | Virtualization: Increasing the consequences of power outages since 1970-ish! |
| 17:10.24 | Supaplex | Last week I pulled as many unused cables behind my desk I could find, and discovered why the ups for my monitor sucked so bad. The cord wasn't even plugged into a ups! :P |
| 17:14.23 | levi | sjansen: It might /decrease/ the consequences of power outages if you have all your servers on one UPSed machine. |
| 17:15.00 | sjansen | Yes, I realize that. It also reduces the chance of tripping a breaking by putting too much load on a circuit. |
| 17:15.30 | sjansen | s/breaking/breaker |
| 17:16.26 | goozbach | not to self: when refering to a server by dns hostname, it helps to spell it properly |
| 17:16.55 | *** join/#utah Tadaka (n=Tadaka@c-67-177-60-108.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:16.56 | Supaplex | ~typosmite goozbach |
| 17:16.58 | Supaplex | ;) |
| 17:17.23 | goozbach | am I going to be able to land in utah tonight? |
| 17:17.57 | goozbach | power outages, freeway closings, Jayce^ being stranded away from his home... |
| 17:18.07 | elg | you'll be stranded in the air |
| 17:18.13 | elg | until you run out of fuel that is |
| 17:18.22 | elg | then you'll end up in strawberry |
| 17:18.24 | levi | Anyone heard from Jayce today? |
| 17:18.39 | rsimpkins | Jayce^ got stranded? |
| 17:18.46 | rsimpkins | I thought he lived in Orem. |
| 17:18.55 | levi | Nope, he lives in Eagle Mountain. |
| 17:18.56 | elg | eagle mountain |
| 17:19.01 | rsimpkins | Ouch. |
| 17:19.14 | goozbach | he sent a tweet saying the road to his house was closed |
| 17:19.28 | goozbach | but it was just after he sent the tweet saying "heading to plug" |
| 17:19.29 | elg | his aim acct is 11min idle |
| 17:19.37 | rsimpkins | Yeah, there was a big accident and the eagle mountain mayer may have over reacted a bit. :) |
| 17:19.43 | goozbach | so he has internet access... |
| 17:19.49 | goozbach | mayer? |
| 17:20.02 | elg | the one who may |
| 17:20.17 | rsimpkins | Mayor. |
| 17:20.29 | levi | rsimpkins: I don't think it was an overreaction. It was open again a few hours after they closed it. |
| 17:20.31 | goozbach | my hometown had a Mayor Mayer |
| 17:20.39 | rsimpkins | Cool. |
| 17:20.41 | goozbach | for four years |
| 17:20.45 | goozbach | it was fun |
| 17:20.57 | elg | until he locked you in the dungeon |
| 17:23.03 | fozzmoo | My coworker is mayor of Mendon. |
| 17:23.08 | fozzmoo | And his name is Michael Morgan. |
| 17:23.15 | fozzmoo | Michael Morgan, Mayor Of Mendon. |
| 17:23.31 | dmdavis | Mendon, where? |
| 17:23.36 | tristanbob | perhaps that should be "cues" |
| 17:23.36 | fozzmoo | Mendon... Utah. |
| 17:23.47 | dmdavis | OK, I went to school in Mendon, NY |
| 17:23.58 | tristanbob | MMOM |
| 17:24.06 | fozzmoo | Nope. Little town west of Logan. |
| 17:24.12 | tristanbob | MMOM, the next best thing sinse MMORPG |
| 17:24.17 | goozbach | I didn't know he was the mayor. |
| 17:24.20 | goozbach | huh |
| 17:24.25 | tristanbob | wow my spelling is bad today... |
| 17:24.51 | goozbach | tristanbob: shouldn't it be MMMoM |
| 17:25.00 | tristanbob | yah |
| 17:25.00 | goozbach | ? |
| 17:25.38 | tristanbob | MoIP - Mayorship over IP - aka telecommuting |
| 17:29.17 | rsimpkins | I liked the St. George mayor. He ran a welding shop. So you could read his quotes in the paper in the morning, then bring your metal work and have him weld something up in the afternoon. |
| 17:38.19 | sjansen | Support for a.out binaries has been removed from the ELF loader. Pure a.out systems will still work, though. - 2.6.25-rc1 |
| 17:39.25 | sjansen | Answer: Nope. Looks like even though the file is called a.out, it's an ELF file. |
| 17:40.00 | goozbach | ah man! if only I lived in SLC still |
| 17:41.01 | goozbach | http://scothoser.blogspot.com/2008/02/wanted-flexible-linux-instructor.html |
| 17:41.14 | goozbach | teaching at the University... that'd be great! |
| 17:42.27 | sjansen | Heh, "and know how to teach". That's the tricky part, in't? |
| 17:44.33 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 17:44.36 | *** join/#utah pirate| (n=wds@70.97.48.98) |
| 17:45.32 | thaddeusq | why should I know how to teach? Most of the students don't know how to learn! |
| 17:45.58 | sjansen | Good point. And most of them don't want to learn. In fact, many would prefer than you end class an hour early. |
| 17:46.12 | *** join/#utah jlp_work (n=jlp@gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.com) |
| 17:46.33 | levi | sjansen: Yeah, a.out was the binary format before ELF. That was a *long* time ago, though. |
| 17:46.58 | sjansen | goozbach: It's settled then, you can still teach the class. Teleconference and use your experience to reduce class time to 45 minutes. |
| 17:48.00 | sjansen | levi: I realize that. But I'd always assumed (based on the filename) that gcc test.c could produce a file in a.out format. Since the kernel had support for a.out, I figured it wasn't a big deal. |
| 17:48.12 | sjansen | s/could/would/ |
| 17:48.19 | levi | sjansen: You know what happens when you assume... ;) |
| 17:48.53 | herlo | ass/u/me |
| 17:49.20 | *** join/#utah bachisaner1 (n=Benjamin@65-103-255-171.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 17:49.25 | levi | sjansen: This is Linux we're talking about. Tradition wins out over making sense every time. |
| 17:50.14 | sjansen | Ever read up on the ELF format? It's seriously cool and under utilized. |
| 17:50.18 | herlo | levi: no, that's politics |
| 17:50.23 | *** join/#utah jlp_work_ (n=jlp@gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.com) |
| 17:50.45 | levi | herlo: And, like everything else done by a community, Linux development is driven by politics. |
| 17:51.03 | levi | sjansen: Yeah, I had to write an ELF file parser for my OS class. |
| 17:51.38 | sjansen | Really? Cool! |
| 17:51.41 | levi | Hey, Harman Kardon finally decided to get into the high def disc player market. |
| 17:52.31 | levi | sjansen: And what do you mean by it being under utilized? |
| 17:52.32 | sjansen | my old HP has Harman Kardon speakers. Great sound. |
| 17:52.32 | herlo | levi: only so much. besides, I was referring to our government politics, but I see your point |
| 17:53.19 | sjansen | Most people only use the core feature: storing loadable code. But it supports other things like strong versioning, multiplatform binaries (old MacOS users would call them "fat binaries"), that sort of stuff. |
| 17:54.54 | sjansen | BTW, I don't just mean storing a version number. I mean storing code for different versions of the same symbol in the same file. So one program can link glibc 2.6.4 behavior and another can link 2.5.3 behavior (in theory). |
| 17:56.02 | sjansen | As with most old solution, most people aren't aware or are too lazy, so we end up inventing the wheel again and again with more angle brackets each time. |
| 17:57.16 | levi | sjansen: I can get Harman Kardon gear for cheap, since they're part of the company I work for. |
| 17:59.30 | sjansen | Could you get a retro-fit kit for my T61p? (Thanks! Love you. Buh-bye.) |
| 17:59.47 | levi | Uh, no. |
| 18:00.00 | sjansen | I love just about everything about my T61p, but I miss my old speakers. |
| 18:00.52 | RyanE | levi: can you get 'friends and family' accommodation as well? :) |
| 18:01.04 | herlo | sjansen: my t60p has hi-fidelity sound according to the specs |
| 18:03.50 | sjansen | I'm not saying the T61p is bad, I just saying the Harmon Kardon in my old HP zv5000 is better. Deeper, richer sound. Like desktop speakers, not laptop speakers. |
| 18:04.05 | levi | RyanE: Yes, but the discounts are not quite as good. |
| 18:04.40 | RyanE | levi: we may need to talk a trade some time... when the budget gets better. :) |
| 18:04.45 | levi | Actually, I can get the good discounts for immediate family, but not friends. |
| 18:04.53 | herlo | sjansen: ahh, I see. |
| 18:05.04 | herlo | levi: sjansen is family, and you know it! |
| 18:05.15 | RyanE | levi: yeah, rub it in... |
| 18:05.43 | herlo | levi: don't let RyanE have anything for a discount, he just comes to game nights like once a year |
| 18:05.49 | herlo | at best |
| 18:06.04 | RyanE | herlo: yeah, and now that it's in freakin' MURRAY, my average will go down. :) |
| 18:06.07 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 18:06.43 | RyanE | herlo: I'm always under the impression that I'm going to be *less* busy in a few months... And it doesn't seem to work that way. |
| 18:06.48 | *** join/#utah emcnabb_ (n=emcnabb@nat/redhat/x-496e2ade2fd4f4da) |
| 18:11.33 | elg | awesome. georgia is trying to annex part of tenessee |
| 18:17.16 | goozbach | oh yeah! |
| 18:17.20 | goozbach | we are expanding |
| 18:20.11 | elg | sounds like tenessee doesn't want to play along though |
| 18:24.30 | elg | indy trailer online |
| 18:25.00 | RyanE | it could be soo good, or soo bad. |
| 18:25.09 | RyanE | or the trailer could be good, movie bad. |
| 18:28.16 | sjansen | Okay, so I've learned that 20 minutes of Badger Badger Badger is survivable. It's possible to read an understand LWN while playing Badger Badger Badger in the background. But it's not possible to code while Badger Badger Badger is playing the background. |
| 18:28.34 | elg | heh |
| 18:29.08 | tensai | sjansen: I'll go ahead with the Nobel nomination for your groundbreaking research |
| 18:30.53 | RyanE | In the 'Badger Badger Badger' category. |
| 18:35.53 | *** join/#utah Jayce (n=jayce@65.48.77.236) |
| 18:35.54 | *** mode/#utah [+o Jayce] by ChanServ |
| 18:42.14 | levi | tensai: igNobel, maybe. |
| 18:42.59 | tensai | levi: ig nobel rocks |
| 18:43.08 | vontrapp | anyone know how to make neat little flowers out of tinfoil wrappers? |
| 18:43.14 | tensai | sjansen: write it up in a peer reviewed journal |
| 18:43.26 | *** join/#utah jottley (n=jottley@c-24-2-76-124.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:53.05 | elg | speaking of badgers, I got my new badger shaving brush in the mail yesterday |
| 18:53.24 | Supaplex | what, no hairless badger? |
| 18:54.00 | dmdavis | elg: I was just reading about shaving like that. You have a safety razor? |
| 18:54.08 | elg | yeah, just got that too |
| 18:54.19 | dmdavis | elg: nice. how do you like it? |
| 18:54.34 | elg | today was the first day, and I only shaved my cheeks (left a goatee at least for now) |
| 18:55.03 | elg | but yeah, it's at least as close as I get with the überexpensive n-blade cartridges |
| 18:55.16 | elg | and I don't even have any practice yet:) |
| 18:55.23 | dmdavis | you get a merker (I think that's the company) razor? |
| 18:55.28 | elg | merkur, yeah |
| 18:55.46 | elg | haven't shaved for awhile, having a beard and all, but I've been doing the brush and soap bit for gosh, 6 years probably now |
| 18:56.18 | elg | had a boar hair brush, this brush is much nicer ($25 "pure badger" brush) |
| 18:56.37 | Jayce | yeah, I bought a can of shaving cream two years ago, still feels full |
| 18:56.38 | elg | amazingshaving.com - flat shipping |
| 18:56.41 | dmdavis | I was just reading about safety razor shaving on some blog. seemed intriguing, but expensive initially |
| 18:57.03 | elg | yes, but long term you save a bunch |
| 18:57.46 | elg | you can start with just a brush and soap, even with the cartridge razors you'll notice a difference |
| 18:57.53 | elg | or go with cream like Jayce |
| 18:58.02 | elg | i see he nicked himself this morning. shaved off his ^ |
| 18:58.09 | dmdavis | ouch |
| 18:58.28 | elg | there's a series of youtube videos that you should watch if you're interested in it |
| 18:58.50 | dmdavis | what should I search for? |
| 18:58.50 | elg | http://youtube.com/watch?v=xjhIy9rgWQU |
| 18:58.53 | dmdavis | thanks |
| 19:01.16 | *** join/#utah opapo (n=root@www.alpine.k12.ut.us) |
| 19:01.24 | goozbach | I got my saftey razor, soap, and brush from The Art of Shaving. |
| 19:01.29 | goozbach | it's awesome |
| 19:01.31 | vontrapp | mom got me one when i went on my mission |
| 19:01.46 | opapo | I can't get a steady connection through my br0 |
| 19:01.57 | elg | maybe it's br0ked |
| 19:02.00 | opapo | I have virtual hosts on a box |
| 19:02.10 | opapo | elg: haha |
| 19:02.16 | vontrapp | she put the soap in an old garlic jar, got the soap and the brush all garlicy :( |
| 19:02.27 | elg | still have it? |
| 19:02.27 | findlay | heh |
| 19:02.33 | elg | maybe you can clean it with some vinegar or something |
| 19:02.35 | vontrapp | i might somewhere |
| 19:02.47 | elg | well, vinegar solution |
| 19:02.51 | elg | i wouldn't apply straight vinegar |
| 19:03.46 | goozbach | I need to get a porcelan enameled steel cup to put my brush in. |
| 19:04.19 | findlay | easy |
| 19:04.22 | vontrapp | ewwww, electric |
| 19:04.29 | elg | I need to figure out storage. my last brush died because I didn't store it well. got all curly and didn't dry properly etc. |
| 19:04.53 | elg | but it's as well, since it was a boar hair brush :) |
| 19:05.14 | goozbach | elg: hang it bristles down |
| 19:05.23 | elg | yeah, that's the trick |
| 19:05.42 | goozbach | shake it out really well when you've rinsed it. |
| 19:06.40 | vontrapp | elg: lash some straws together and place them over a cup |
| 19:07.18 | vontrapp | so the brush handle fits nicely between the straws and hangs into the cup |
| 19:07.25 | elg | well i already have a mug |
| 19:07.44 | elg | goozbach: do you build lather in a bowl or mug or on the face? |
| 19:08.24 | elg | straws could work, but is there something a bit more heavyweight? |
| 19:08.39 | elg | i wonder... those super-huge safety pins maybe |
| 19:09.43 | vontrapp | elg: you could use those stick things from craft stores, the kind you put in flower arrangements |
| 19:10.04 | goozbach | elg: I build lather in my hand |
| 19:10.06 | vontrapp | tie two or three togehter at a time |
| 19:10.11 | goozbach | but I want a mug |
| 19:10.17 | vontrapp | ~mug goozbach |
| 19:10.18 | goozbach | porcelian enable steel |
| 19:10.32 | elg | soap or cream? |
| 19:11.57 | elg | interested in pottery mug? |
| 19:16.02 | vontrapp | goozbach: go to color me mine for valentines, she could make you a mug |
| 19:26.24 | fozzmoo | Stupid power. |
| 19:27.08 | elg | i don't really like lathering in my mug. maybe its shape is just awkward |
| 19:27.24 | elg | i'll post a picture tonight if I remember |
| 19:28.15 | goozbach | I used to have a big old camp mug, I left it in mexico though |
| 19:28.45 | elg | lather right on the soap? or keep the soap out o fthe later? |
| 19:41.54 | tensai | who here eats tofu on a regular basis? |
| 19:42.07 | tensai | besides me, of course |
| 19:42.55 | RyanE | no bean curds here today. |
| 19:43.13 | RyanE | my wife'll sneak it into a few chicken dishes she makes, but not 'regular basis'. |
| 19:43.43 | tensai | my kids love to eat it plain |
| 19:43.52 | goozbach | I use creme |
| 19:44.02 | goozbach | I put it into the brush, then lather against my hand |
| 19:44.28 | fozzmoo | Hmmm. |
| 19:44.29 | tensai | seems like the checker at the store generally give us a funny look when we buy tofu |
| 19:44.42 | fozzmoo | I'm really getting fed up with this pulseaudio crap in Fedora 8 |
| 19:45.21 | Tene | fozzmoo: eh? |
| 19:45.35 | fozzmoo | Tene: Yeah- I've got no sound whatsoever after the last round of updates. |
| 19:45.45 | Tene | huh |
| 19:45.48 | fozzmoo | Running alsamixer shows me one channel: Mic input. |
| 19:46.14 | RyanE | goozbach: tofu creme? |
| 19:46.20 | Tene | fozzmoo: alsamixer -c 0 |
| 19:46.38 | fozzmoo | which does what? |
| 19:46.45 | fozzmoo | 1st card? |
| 19:47.00 | fozzmoo | Yeah-I've got Mic and an "Auto Gai" switch. |
| 19:47.08 | fozzmoo | I don't even wanna know whatthe "Auto Gai" switch does. |
| 19:47.49 | elg | auto gain probably |
| 19:48.08 | elg | AGC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_gain_control |
| 19:48.11 | fozzmoo | elg: huh. Maybe you're right. |
| 19:48.17 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 19:48.22 | elg | you're sure you're looking at the right mode? |
| 19:48.26 | elg | try hitting tab |
| 19:48.30 | Tene | Looks like I'm getting weird dns failures here. |
| 19:48.32 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 19:48.52 | fozzmoo | Playback: Auto Gai, Capture: Mic, All: Mic and Auto Gai |
| 19:49.04 | fozzmoo | Oh wait! |
| 19:49.06 | fozzmoo | WOW! |
| 19:49.08 | elg | sounds like a wonderfully featureful card |
| 19:49.16 | fozzmoo | it's my Logitech Quickcam! |
| 19:49.23 | fozzmoo | Card: USB Device 0x46d:0x8d9 |
| 19:49.32 | elg | nic |
| 19:49.34 | elg | nice even |
| 19:49.40 | fozzmoo | So, it's not even touching my onboard sound. |
| 19:50.42 | fozzmoo | maybe I'd better reboot with the quickcam disconnected |
| 19:50.45 | Tene | fozzmoo: open the pulseaudio manager thing and look at the devices |
| 19:51.00 | Tene | fozzmoo: also, look at /etc/modprobe.conf |
| 19:51.14 | fozzmoo | Pulseaudio manager thing now shows no devices. |
| 19:51.31 | fozzmoo | modprobe.conf shows snd-intel8x0 |
| 19:51.35 | fozzmoo | (which I think is normal) |
| 19:51.44 | fozzmoo | bbiab |
| 19:55.18 | tensai | I bet Ted Haggard and Larry Craig accidentally clicked Auto Gai. that explains a lot. |
| 19:58.00 | Tadaka | I'm begining to dislike firefox... All my CPU are belong to firefox |
| 19:58.30 | Tadaka | starting to drive me bonkers |
| 19:59.04 | levi | Time to switch to the WebKit-based Epiphany? |
| 20:00.52 | fozzmoo | Removing /etc/sysconfig/hwconf and rebooting seems to have been the ticket |
| 20:02.08 | tensai | you know I called one of my network vendors the other day to report an outage |
| 20:02.20 | tensai | they tried to give me a ticket for it but I refused |
| 20:02.24 | tensai | so they tazed me! |
| 20:10.36 | goozbach | fozzmoo: that's what you have to do? |
| 20:10.48 | goozbach | how about just removing the soundcards and rebooting? |
| 20:10.52 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 20:12.41 | goozbach | heh? |
| 20:12.45 | goozbach | what does that tell me? |
| 20:12.51 | goozbach | I've got the same problem. |
| 20:13.00 | goozbach | TELL ME HOW TO FIX IT!!!! |
| 20:13.09 | fozzmoo | huh? |
| 20:13.40 | fozzmoo | Sorry- I missed something between reboots. |
| 20:13.42 | fozzmoo | I'm catching up now. |
| 20:14.06 | fozzmoo | So, yeah, I moved/removed /etc/modprobe.conf and /etc/sysconfig/hwconf and then rebooted. |
| 20:14.32 | fozzmoo | Now, when I run 'alsamixer -c 0' I get some single-channel pulseaudio device |
| 20:14.46 | fozzmoo | Sorry. not true. |
| 20:14.57 | fozzmoo | If I run 'alsamixer' I get the pulseaudio device. one channel. |
| 20:15.06 | fozzmoo | if I add '-c 0' I get Card: NVidia nForce2 |
| 20:15.24 | fozzmoo | and everything appears to be working, for the most part. |
| 20:15.39 | fozzmoo | I can't help but wonder if the Linux desktop is heading in the Right(tm) direction or not. |
| 20:21.37 | levi | Of course not, it's Linux. |
| 20:21.50 | levi | It can't head coherently in *any* direction. |
| 20:22.40 | levi | It just kind of spreads out, with new appendages growing in various places while old ones wither and decay. |
| 20:27.05 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I guess because Linux is so organic and evolutionary... if this pulseaudio thing is an unwise direction, it will self-correct. |
| 20:27.47 | fozzmoo | That's probably the most advantageous thing and the achilles heel about open source. |
| 20:28.18 | levi | Not really open source in general, but community-driven open source. |
| 20:28.25 | fozzmoo | right. |
| 20:33.26 | goozbach | so I just turned up my mic gain, plugged in my headphones and sat listening to people who thought I couldn't hear them. |
| 20:33.29 | goozbach | tee hee! |
| 20:34.59 | *** join/#utah RedHeron (n=RedHeron@c-98-202-56-80.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:36.39 | sjansen | http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9872474-39.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 |
| 20:36.52 | sjansen | All I've got to say is WTF?!!! |
| 20:40.26 | vontrapp | yeah, let's waste more money! |
| 20:41.11 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: Did you see Romney's endorsing McCain? |
| 20:41.58 | RyanE | ooh, I wouldn't want to be the 'principal financial advisor' to 'Middle-Eastern partners' who recommended SCO... |
| 20:42.09 | tensai | sjansen: did you notice that guy looks a lot like redbeard |
| 20:43.03 | tensai | RyanE: it worked out OK for doc in back to the future |
| 20:43.07 | sjansen | No I didn't cause I don't think he does. |
| 20:43.43 | tensai | this from the guy who just invested $100 million in sco |
| 20:57.52 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 20:59.45 | *** join/#utah fungus_ (n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com) |
| 21:02.22 | sjansen | tensai: They tazed you? |
| 21:02.38 | Sargun | ? |
| 21:05.31 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: no |
| 21:05.35 | vontrapp | and i don't want to |
| 21:05.47 | fozzmoo | I'm slowly moving into your camp. |
| 21:06.01 | vontrapp | arms open |
| 21:06.32 | sjansen | Obama it is! |
| 21:07.05 | vontrapp | obama > mccain |
| 21:07.24 | dataw0lf | obama > * |
| 21:07.53 | vontrapp | paul > obama > * |
| 21:08.20 | dataw0lf | I'll allow you that since you're a Ronulan |
| 21:08.54 | vontrapp | i'll allow you _that_ because i think ronulan sounds cool |
| 21:09.00 | dataw0lf | :D |
| 21:09.16 | RedHeron | Paul = "I'm anti-war, but I voted for the Star Wars Initiative to put nukes in orbit above the Earth." |
| 21:09.53 | vontrapp | are you sure about that? i never even heard of this star wars initiative |
| 21:10.07 | vontrapp | and that sounds like something too expensive for ron to support |
| 21:10.10 | dataw0lf | the SDI? |
| 21:10.18 | RedHeron | SDI = Star Wars Program |
| 21:10.21 | dataw0lf | they never wanted to put nukes in orbit above the Earth |
| 21:10.28 | sjansen | There's something to be said for Mutually Assured Destruction when faced with a nation founded on the principle that doing anything to win is okay so long as it's "for the greater good". |
| 21:10.29 | dataw0lf | lasers, railguns, kinetic missiles |
| 21:10.35 | RedHeron | Uh... they *did* put nukes into orbit. |
| 21:10.47 | rsimpkins | sjansen: Have you seen The Fog of War yet? |
| 21:11.04 | sjansen | nope |
| 21:11.08 | rsimpkins | sjansen: i recommend it. |
| 21:11.15 | rsimpkins | sjansen: I think you would enjoy it. |
| 21:11.24 | dataw0lf | RedHeron: when? |
| 21:11.28 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: Great documentary. |
| 21:11.40 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: 1983-1988. |
| 21:11.41 | dataw0lf | Errol Morris++ |
| 21:11.44 | vontrapp | are you sure it's "nukes in orbit" or is it ballistic missiles that go "into orbit" to get to their target? |
| 21:11.51 | dataw0lf | RedHeron: Source. |
| 21:11.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They're satellite-mounted. |
| 21:11.59 | rsimpkins | dataw0lf: Some very important things to think about by looking at McNamera |
| 21:12.02 | rsimpkins | 's life. |
| 21:12.28 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: FoiA disclosure of SDI from JCOS/DoD. |
| 21:12.59 | rsimpkins | Putting nukes in orbit just doesn't seem like a sane thing to do since missles need to be regularly mantained to ensure proper detination. |
| 21:13.00 | dataw0lf | well I want quotes and the document |
| 21:13.10 | dataw0lf | why would they put nukes into orbit for SDI? |
| 21:13.12 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: File FoiA for SDI from DoD. |
| 21:13.13 | rsimpkins | or, warheads rather of the nuclear order. |
| 21:13.16 | dataw0lf | we had accurate ICBMs |
| 21:13.27 | dataw0lf | SDI was a way to defeat near-space ICBMs from Russia |
| 21:13.30 | vontrapp | dataw0lf: yeah, doesn't make sense |
| 21:13.35 | dataw0lf | using a nuclear warhead against another nuclear warhead isn't tactically sound |
| 21:13.39 | dataw0lf | they tried a bunch of stuff |
| 21:13.44 | dataw0lf | theoretically and practically |
| 21:13.54 | vontrapp | maybe it's in-orbit ANTI nukes, that would make sense |
| 21:13.55 | dataw0lf | some which evolved into the new AWACS air defense system |
| 21:14.09 | dataw0lf | (basically an AWACS with a frickin' laser mounted underneath) |
| 21:14.43 | dataw0lf | I don't recall anything about nukes in the SDI program except for possibly increasing the range on our ICBMs and attempting to shoot ICBM test drones |
| 21:14.44 | jlp_work_ | one of the things they were looking at for SDI was nuclear pumped x-ray lasers |
| 21:14.52 | rsimpkins | Putting anything as complex as a nuclear weapon in place and leaving it there just doesn't make much since. The life on something like that just isn't that long, and eventually it comes down and you have to fess up to doing it. |
| 21:15.04 | RedHeron | The SDI placed 40 low-yield "nuclear devices" into orbit to power the laser systems from 1984 to 1988 (about 10/year). |
| 21:15.25 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: As power systems? Okay - that makes sense. |
| 21:15.28 | jlp_work_ | there are a lot of nuclear devices in satellites... nuclear device != warhead |
| 21:15.31 | vontrapp | RedHeron: nuclear device != nuke |
| 21:15.33 | dataw0lf | are you talking about the tiny snowflake missiles they were going to use to congregate against an ICBM? |
| 21:15.49 | dataw0lf | because yes those were "nuclear" in a small sense |
| 21:15.54 | rsimpkins | http://www.nuc.umr.edu/nuclear_facts/spacepower/spacepower.html |
| 21:15.56 | dataw0lf | not the sense of OMG tragedy that you think though. |
| 21:16.01 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: That's the "low-yield" devices. |
| 21:16.06 | rsimpkins | We've been using nuclear for power in space for decades. |
| 21:16.11 | RedHeron | Which could survive re-entry. |
| 21:16.19 | RedHeron | Not the nukes I'm talking about. |
| 21:16.35 | dataw0lf | one of those missiles surviving re-entry? 1) not likely 2) when they say low yield, that's what they mean |
| 21:16.49 | dataw0lf | they were a cluster system that the U.S. planned to use as ICBM defense |
| 21:17.01 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you're double-talking |
| 21:17.02 | dataw0lf | there's more danger from a satellite falling and hitting your house and exploding |
| 21:17.23 | dataw0lf | don't get me wrong |
| 21:17.27 | dataw0lf | SDI was vaporware |
| 21:17.29 | RedHeron | Or exploding in orbit and creating an EMP. |
| 21:17.36 | RedHeron | Which was the design. |
| 21:17.56 | rsimpkins | That sounds more like science fiction than fact to me. |
| 21:18.02 | RedHeron | Thus, the power systems are "nukes" in that they were designed to detonate if impacted. |
| 21:18.11 | dataw0lf | naw EMP enabled weapons against ICBMs are a pretty sane theory |
| 21:18.15 | elg | goozbach: http://foton.fugal.net/album/98 |
| 21:18.37 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: EMP is created when certain kinds of radiation impact the atmosphere. |
| 21:18.43 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: I know. |
| 21:18.54 | dataw0lf | but if you're afraid of what they put in orbit to defend against ICBMs, you should probably stop driving, don't go outside, and hunker down in your tinfoil covered bomb shelter. |
| 21:18.55 | jlp_work_ | it is very very difficult to design a nuclear device to "detonate" |
| 21:19.03 | rsimpkins | We spend billions of dollars to ensure EMP won't impact the performance of our nuclear weapons. |
| 21:19.07 | dataw0lf | there's a lot more practical things to be afraid of |
| 21:19.11 | RedHeron | jlp_work_: True, but that was the plan. |
| 21:19.12 | herlo | rsimpkins: ping |
| 21:19.19 | rsimpkins | ~pong herlo |
| 21:19.19 | ibot | herlo: PONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 21:19.23 | herlo | pm |
| 21:19.28 | dataw0lf | like North Korea selling one of their nukes |
| 21:19.35 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: I'm just point out that the devices were *planned* to do things. |
| 21:19.50 | dataw0lf | well most devices are planned to do things |
| 21:19.53 | RedHeron | And that's what was voted in favor of by Paul. |
| 21:19.54 | dataw0lf | My laptop for instance |
| 21:20.14 | RedHeron | The intent behind the action is important, regardless of the actual result. |
| 21:20.21 | dataw0lf | Paul has never said he wouldn't spend money on operations to protect America |
| 21:20.23 | vontrapp | so paul voted to protect us from nukes? or what exactly? |
| 21:20.33 | RedHeron | vontrapp: No, to put them into space. |
| 21:20.37 | dataw0lf | the intent of the SDI was to put the Russians into a technology war they couldn't sustain |
| 21:20.41 | dataw0lf | and it worked |
| 21:20.53 | sjansen | I don't know if it was the intent, but it was the effect. |
| 21:21.00 | vontrapp | for what purpose? that matters, to?, like you just said |
| 21:21.11 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: Yes, yes it did, but the only times Paul voted the SDI up was when it involved those devices. |
| 21:21.12 | dataw0lf | sjansen: the Reagan administration used that tactic widely, not just on the SDI campagin |
| 21:21.22 | dataw0lf | s/campagin/campaign |
| 21:21.55 | dataw0lf | RedHeron: so what you're saying is Ron Paul voted for a device that used EMP to disable incoming ICBMs that travelled through near orbit |
| 21:21.58 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you're still being very vague about what these "devices" are, what their intent is, and why that makes ron paul bad |
| 21:22.07 | dataw0lf | I don't understand the problem. |
| 21:22.21 | herlo | ron paul won't win, so it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things |
| 21:22.27 | vontrapp | "OMG ron paul nukes! eek!" |
| 21:22.28 | sjansen | The Reagan administration has been given the credit, but were they fully aware of how bankrupt the USSR would become? I haven't seen any proof. Seems more like good timing to me. |
| 21:22.29 | dataw0lf | herlo: true true. |
| 21:22.32 | RedHeron | vontrapp, dataw0lf: The intent was to be offensive in a defensive capacity. |
| 21:22.59 | dataw0lf | a low yield EMP weapon in orbit was intended to be used "defensively offensive" ? |
| 21:23.00 | dataw0lf | Explain |
| 21:23.12 | dataw0lf | the EMP generated was designed to take care of an ICBM in close proximity |
| 21:23.13 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you're still spreading it like FUD |
| 21:23.18 | dataw0lf | it wasn't a wave of uber destructive galactic force |
| 21:23.24 | dataw0lf | we're not talking about a Transformers villian here |
| 21:23.31 | vontrapp | mr journalist, you should include all the facts |
| 21:23.36 | vontrapp | that's pretty irresponsible |
| 21:23.40 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Not unlike the "Obama voted to extend the PATRIOT Act" FUD that Paul supporters spread. |
| 21:23.55 | vontrapp | the patriot act is way different |
| 21:23.57 | dataw0lf | sjansen: They probably didn't think it would bring the Soviet Union down so quickly, I'm sure |
| 21:24.04 | RedHeron | vontrapp: No, no it's not. It's still FUD. |
| 21:24.06 | vontrapp | it's sole purpose is to take away our rights |
| 21:24.09 | dataw0lf | and trust me, I don't give Reagan credit much ;-) |
| 21:24.33 | *** join/#utah brasto (n=Owner@71-219-135-132.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 21:24.39 | vontrapp | besides, i've never heard paul take shots at obama |
| 21:24.52 | vontrapp | and if anyone would hear it, i would ;) |
| 21:24.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: He has. Google. |
| 21:25.43 | vontrapp | so ron paul saying obama voted for the patriot act is like you saying "ron paul voted for NUKES in SPACE!" |
| 21:25.48 | vontrapp | and so that makes it ok |
| 21:25.54 | RedHeron | Yep, precisely. |
| 21:25.55 | RedHeron | FUD. |
| 21:26.06 | vontrapp | obama voted for patriot act is a fact |
| 21:26.26 | RedHeron | vontrapp: How? |
| 21:26.29 | sjansen | My understanding is simply that Reagan understood you have to stand up to bullies. Capitalism and an open society were inherently more productive than a centrally organized economy founded on deception at all levels. It'd be hard to argue that anyone expected the communists to be so easy to defeat at the time because they were doing a very good job of projected strength as they rotten from within. |
| 21:26.30 | vontrapp | notice he doesn't say "oboma voted to take away all our privacy and put us in a police state |
| 21:26.33 | vontrapp | " |
| 21:26.45 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Yes, but the implication is still there. |
| 21:26.58 | vontrapp | so how about you say "paul voted for SDI" |
| 21:27.05 | vontrapp | instead of "nukes in space" |
| 21:27.12 | RedHeron | And the fact of it is, Paul is promising LOTS of things he can never deliver on. |
| 21:27.24 | RedHeron | That's why nobody's voting for him. |
| 21:27.26 | dataw0lf | http://legalcondom.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/b4/b4d0f605c8371c8f4957009267c86641874f10c7.jpg |
| 21:27.43 | vontrapp | paul simply promises he will uphold the constitution any way he can |
| 21:27.48 | vontrapp | which he CAN deliver on |
| 21:27.50 | elg | "nobody"'s voting for him because he's not a frontrunner |
| 21:27.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You mean, like eliminating the IRS? |
| 21:27.55 | vontrapp | and he has a track record for it |
| 21:27.59 | sjansen | Anyone that thinks they can erase several depts of govt is to be praised, but that doesn't change the fact it's unrealistic without, oh say, a coup to back it. |
| 21:28.21 | vontrapp | i've never heard him say "i will abolish the irs" only that WE should |
| 21:28.29 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Like being against net neutrality (anti-censorship/freedom-of-speech legislation)? |
| 21:28.46 | vontrapp | what?! |
| 21:28.48 | sjansen | dataw0lf: You convinced me. I'm voting Ron Paul now. |
| 21:28.49 | RedHeron | That's upholding the Constitution! |
| 21:28.50 | vontrapp | what are you talking about |
| 21:28.58 | dataw0lf | sjansen: yea, me too |
| 21:29.00 | vontrapp | oh, he's AGAINST it, yeah |
| 21:29.02 | vontrapp | that's true |
| 21:29.05 | herlo | dataw0lf: just because of that picture, I'm voting for ron paul |
| 21:29.17 | dataw0lf | that's what I'm sayin' |
| 21:29.24 | vontrapp | sorry, i assumed you were trying to say something to make me NOT like ron paul |
| 21:29.35 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'm in favor of Net Neutrality. |
| 21:29.42 | herlo | dataw0lf: hehe |
| 21:29.55 | vontrapp | wait, i'm still confused |
| 21:29.56 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And I have a network admin background. |
| 21:30.23 | elg | "net neutrality" is the opposite game for what the lobbyists were pushing |
| 21:30.27 | vontrapp | look at it this way, ron paul is against superflous legislation |
| 21:30.34 | elg | if you're for net neutrality, you're against what they were pushing |
| 21:30.35 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not superfluous. |
| 21:30.51 | RedHeron | elg: Did you actually read the legislation? |
| 21:30.56 | vontrapp | and if isps aren't subsisdised there will be no need for net neutrality |
| 21:31.04 | elg | RedHeron: ok, you tell us what it is |
| 21:32.05 | elg | i could well be wrong |
| 21:32.26 | vontrapp | i firmly believe competition will give us good and open internet if competition is allowed to actually take place |
| 21:32.27 | RedHeron | Network Neutrality serves to make it illegal for providers to determine what traffic gets priority based on content, source, or destination. It serves to give consumers choice while eliminating the legal capability for ISP's to determine what you're allowed to do with your net connection, as well as eliminating the right to charge web sites to get better traffic flow (i.e., priority) based on profitability. |
| 21:32.28 | elg | but I don't feel like being condescended to. if you know better, you tell us |
| 21:32.49 | RedHeron | Hold on... let me grab some URL's. |
| 21:33.07 | RedHeron | Condescended to? Just read the damn legislation! |
| 21:33.35 | vontrapp | just because he doesn't think we need laws governing the internet doesn't mean he thinks it should be filtered,prioritized or any some such |
| 21:33.54 | RedHeron | http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/03/0440259&from=rss |
| 21:34.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: He's *against* legislating in favor of free speech on the net because he doesn't get that we need such a thing because it's not provided for in the Constitution. |
| 21:34.53 | sargun_screen | RedHeron: heya. |
| 21:35.13 | vontrapp | "I believe the purpose of government is to PROTECT OUT LIBERTIES, not to run our lives, or run the economy[, or run the internet]." -- ron pual, brackets inserted |
| 21:35.16 | RedHeron | http://www.youtube.com/v/cWt0XUocViE |
| 21:35.21 | RedHeron | Heya, sargun_screen. |
| 21:35.24 | fozzmoo | Yeah. That's how I feel too. |
| 21:35.31 | elg | "Network neutrality (equivalently "net neutrality", "Internet neutrality" or "NN") refers to a principle " |
| 21:35.33 | vontrapp | *OUR |
| 21:35.33 | elg | just what I said |
| 21:35.34 | fozzmoo | The Internet isn't what it is because of the laws erected around it. |
| 21:36.16 | RedHeron | If companies are permitted to choose what we see or don't see based on their profit margins, then that's anti-competition, and anti-free-speech. |
| 21:36.29 | RedHeron | It's also anti-consumer, but that's another story. |
| 21:36.39 | RedHeron | http://www.youtube.com/v/cWt0XUocViE |
| 21:36.48 | vontrapp | RedHeron: and anti business, they will soon lose customers |
| 21:36.51 | vontrapp | just look at aol |
| 21:37.02 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Not if everyone's doing it. |
| 21:37.08 | vontrapp | they did exactly that from the get go, and never amounted to anything mor than your grandma's internet |
| 21:37.26 | vontrapp | RedHeron: in that case there's already anti-trust laws in place |
| 21:37.45 | *** join/#utah dmdavis (n=dmdavis@67.214.225.122) |
| 21:37.57 | vontrapp | legislating for specific situations when general laws already solve things is very bad business |
| 21:37.57 | RedHeron | Comcast sandvines BT traffic to maintain its profit margins for on-demand and cable TV. |
| 21:38.07 | RedHeron | That's not provided for by the law. |
| 21:38.16 | RedHeron | That's anti-net-neutrality. |
| 21:38.24 | RedHeron | Watch the flash video. |
| 21:38.26 | elg | you're being ridiculous |
| 21:38.36 | vontrapp | RedHeron: where does the law say comcast can't do that? where does the constitution say comcast can't do that? |
| 21:38.47 | sjansen | Government should also solve problems and free enterprise can't. Government providing infrastructure: good. Government making hidden costs visible: good. (The cost of poor health practices, the cost of poor environment practices, etc.) |
| 21:38.49 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It doesn't. Thus the need for net neutrality. |
| 21:38.52 | vontrapp | where does the law say LATIMES can't choose which articles they publish? |
| 21:38.53 | elg | legislation forwarded to ensure net neutrality. If you vote against it, you're against that bit of legislation, not necessarily against "net neutrality" as a principle |
| 21:39.03 | elg | therein lies the confusion and mediaspeak |
| 21:39.05 | vontrapp | where does the law say fox news has to include ron paul? |
| 21:39.16 | elg | whether such legislation is needed, I don't know. hard question |
| 21:39.31 | elg | but if you think that it may not be needed, you aren't necessarily against net neutrality |
| 21:39.34 | sjansen | Don't get me wrong, I have strong libertarian tendencies, but the idea that govt is only there to provide military and police forces is too simplistic. Some taxes are good. |
| 21:39.41 | RedHeron | vontrapp: ON television, you have choice. If your cable provider starts blocking out all Ron Paul broadcasting, wouldn't you be against that? |
| 21:39.59 | elg | if you're for legislation that explicitly gives them the right to do something not net-neutral, *that* is anti net neutrality |
| 21:40.01 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i'd change providers |
| 21:40.17 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Convenient if there's a choice. |
| 21:40.34 | elg | ensuring that there is a choice, I think is a good thing |
| 21:40.34 | RedHeron | elg: I'm in favor of the legislation that explicitly prevents them from interference. |
| 21:40.37 | vontrapp | so if there NO choice, then that's the domain of ANTI-TRUST |
| 21:40.41 | elg | if comcast is the only choice, that's the root of the problem |
| 21:40.46 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Not necessarily. |
| 21:40.53 | sjansen | So govt should act to encourage choice, not to limit the behavior of a small number of companies propped up by govt regulation. |
| 21:40.57 | elg | RedHeron: right. so you are obviously not anti-net-neutrality |
| 21:41.15 | RedHeron | elg: They're the only choice I have other than dialup, but since dialup is an option, it's not anti-trust. |
| 21:41.39 | sjansen | that's an awfully blind interpretation of choice |
| 21:41.46 | RedHeron | sjansen: I tend to agree with that statement. |
| 21:41.57 | elg | if you mean an option for "internet access", perhaps. but I think it's fairly obvious that dialup is not an alternative to cable internet |
| 21:41.59 | elg | dsl is |
| 21:42.03 | elg | wireless can be |
| 21:42.04 | elg | dialup is not |
| 21:42.11 | RedHeron | DSL stops 100 yds from my house. |
| 21:42.19 | RedHeron | No wireless here. |
| 21:42.22 | elg | of course, if dsl isn't in your area because the dsl provider is lame, that's not antitrust |
| 21:42.29 | RedHeron | elg: Exactly. |
| 21:42.43 | elg | so what do you want? pity? |
| 21:42.50 | RedHeron | No, I want neutrality. |
| 21:43.00 | vontrapp | so the real issue is to give you more choices for internet, not to control what comcast can do |
| 21:43.24 | sjansen | If the majority of people don't care about filtering, then what's the problem with Comcast filtering? |
| 21:43.26 | RedHeron | I want to be able to not have to worry that Comcast overbooked their services and are now blocking BT traffic which I use on a regular basis to obtain updates to software installed on my computer. |
| 21:43.46 | sjansen | If you want unfiltered access, and others don't care, you should pay more for unfiltered access. |
| 21:43.55 | elg | me too. I want to be assured of that by having a choice other than comcast |
| 21:43.57 | vontrapp | RedHeron: that sounds like a contract issue |
| 21:44.05 | sjansen | Broadband is not a God given right, like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. |
| 21:44.09 | RedHeron | sjansen: They don't offer that as an option. |
| 21:44.14 | vontrapp | there's legal grounds for that, too, without bringing in new legislation |
| 21:44.38 | sjansen | Now _lying_ about filtering is wrong. That should be illegal. But differentiating based on infrastructure is not wrong. |
| 21:45.00 | RedHeron | Bottom line, and you're not shaking me from it, is that net neutrality legislation is necessary to prevent anti-consumerist filtering, and "the bulk of people" actually do care once it starts affecting them. |
| 21:45.01 | elg | anyway, I don't want to debate whether legislation is needed for NN (others may). I just want to point out that explicit legislation for NN is not the only way to get there |
| 21:45.08 | sjansen | RedHeron: So your beef is lack of choice, not filtering. |
| 21:45.15 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i'm pretty pissed myself that comcast throttles my seeds |
| 21:45.15 | RedHeron | My beef is filtering. |
| 21:45.20 | elg | if it were, the internet would have broken long ago |
| 21:45.29 | sjansen | No, you just think it's filtering. |
| 21:45.36 | RedHeron | No, it really is filtering. |
| 21:45.38 | elg | well his beef is filtering |
| 21:45.39 | sjansen | And deception. |
| 21:45.45 | vontrapp | but i signed up for comcast, and i'm not going to go whining to washington about it |
| 21:45.47 | dmdavis | I've never known beef to do that |
| 21:45.47 | elg | his solution is bullying comcast |
| 21:45.47 | RedHeron | If Comcast didn't filter, I wouldn't have this cnversation. |
| 21:46.04 | RedHeron | My solution is bullying Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon. |
| 21:46.04 | Supaplex | because you'd be on dialup? ;) |
| 21:46.07 | sjansen | If people care as much as you think, as soon as Comcast behavior is known and competition is allowed to appear, they'll jump ship. |
| 21:46.26 | RedHeron | Comcast doesn't *have* competition in 85% of its markets. |
| 21:46.30 | sjansen | So long as Comcast is propped up by govt and allowed to deceive, filtering will be a problem. |
| 21:46.35 | elg | it will |
| 21:46.42 | elg | sometimes it sucks being on the leading edge |
| 21:46.53 | vontrapp | sjansen: bingo, there's the problem |
| 21:46.55 | elg | it wasn't so long ago that any broadband at all was a luxury |
| 21:47.01 | RedHeron | elg: It hasn't since it bought out AT&T in 2002. |
| 21:47.05 | sjansen | So long as govt doesn't make things worse by preventing municipalities and private enterprise from introducing competition. |
| 21:47.21 | RedHeron | Net neutrality lowers the barriers to entry on the internet for business. |
| 21:47.27 | RedHeron | Net neutrality prevents filtering. |
| 21:47.28 | sjansen | But the solution to creating competition is not more laws, it's getting rid of the laws preventing competition. |
| 21:47.40 | vontrapp | RedHeron: how the hell does it lower barriers? |
| 21:47.57 | RedHeron | Net neutrality eliminates sections of law that permit such anti-consumerist practices. |
| 21:48.01 | dataw0lf | you guys are still arguing with RedHeron? |
| 21:48.07 | dataw0lf | as soon as you win he'll change the subject |
| 21:48.08 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: Yes, yes they are. |
| 21:48.12 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so just eliminate those laws |
| 21:48.13 | sjansen | Net neutrality raises the barriers to entry for businesses on the Internet. |
| 21:48.16 | RedHeron | They aren't winning. :-) |
| 21:48.18 | vontrapp | don't make more |
| 21:48.27 | sjansen | Net neutrality prevents optimal use of infrastructure. |
| 21:48.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's what net neutrality DOES! It eliminates the laws! |
| 21:48.37 | vontrapp | dataw0lf: he already changed the subject to net nuetrality |
| 21:48.43 | RedHeron | The legislation is designed to reword existing laws so that the barriers are eroded. |
| 21:48.46 | dataw0lf | you never got back to me why a low yield proximity EMP device would be"defensively aggressive" RedHeron |
| 21:48.52 | vontrapp | RedHeron: sounds like it makes it illegal to filter |
| 21:48.53 | herlo | sjansen: while that might be true, if we eliminate it, parts of it may never be available again to the common man |
| 21:48.56 | vontrapp | that's a new law |
| 21:49.11 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: It's a defensive capacity used aggressively. That's just what it is. |
| 21:49.33 | fozzmoo | "Net neutrality lowers the barriers to entry on the internet for business." ?!?!?! |
| 21:49.36 | fozzmoo | Tjere |
| 21:49.37 | vontrapp | is that like passive-aggressive? |
| 21:49.42 | dataw0lf | well I just want an explanation, because I'm pretty solid on "defensive tactics" and "aggressive tactics", and even some "defensively aggressive tactics" |
| 21:49.43 | fozzmoo | There's a barrier to entry? |
| 21:49.46 | sjansen | Thanks for pointing out I have better things to do with my time. |
| 21:50.21 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: It would be nice to have an explanation, but that's the explanation I'm giving, because that's all the information I have. |
| 21:50.28 | dataw0lf | heh, alright |
| 21:50.33 | dataw0lf | back to work! |
| 21:50.43 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: There is if companies can determine that you have to pay them for THEIR customers (who are also already paying). |
| 21:52.00 | vontrapp | RedHeron: and that's an issue entirely divorced from net nuetrality |
| 21:52.10 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's the CORE of net neutrality. |
| 21:52.24 | vontrapp | just because it happens to be in the same bill doesn't mean it has aything to do with "net nuetrality" |
| 21:52.56 | RedHeron | vontrapp: No, it's the principle of net neutrality that I'm talking about, not the legislation. Legislation is needed, and I'm in support of it, but I'm in favor of the principle. |
| 21:52.59 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so make a new bill that ONLY gets rid of this anti-competition problem and get that passed |
| 21:53.06 | vontrapp | i'm sure ron paul would support that one |
| 21:53.25 | RedHeron | For net neutrality "making illegal" sometime means adding laws, and sometimes taking away other laws. In this case, both tactics are necessary to prevent filtering traffic based on technologies that compete with the provider, or which cause double-charging for traffic (same as filtering in this case). |
| 21:53.54 | fozzmoo | I think it's a bad idea. |
| 21:54.01 | vontrapp | RedHeron: and i'm in favor of the principle of net nuetrality but not in favor of making business decistions illegla |
| 21:54.04 | fozzmoo | But then, I'm old school. |
| 21:54.31 | Sargun | emphasis on the old part. |
| 21:54.48 | RedHeron | The way that network shaping works is by increasing or decreasing the lag between connections. If Comcast (for example) decides that your traffic to Google is going to be slower than your traffic to Yahoo, which search engine are you likely to use? |
| 21:54.51 | fozzmoo | (Said the kid.) |
| 21:55.02 | nick125 | I support queueing certain traffic a higher priority than others (put VoIP over P2P, for instance), but I don't support throttling other providers' traffic because they aren't paying enough. |
| 21:55.16 | RedHeron | nick125: That's kinda the point of Net Neutrality. |
| 21:55.39 | dmdavis | how does that relate to filtering bit torrent? |
| 21:55.42 | vontrapp | i still say let competition thrive and let the net nuetralize itself |
| 21:55.51 | fozzmoo | I think there might appear to be an economic issue right now for network service providers, but in the long run, I think cooperation and competition will rule. |
| 21:55.55 | RedHeron | dmdavis: It's the same technology for the same reasons: profit-driven shaping. |
| 21:56.06 | sjansen | Filtering based on protocol is different than filtering based on IP. |
| 21:56.07 | fozzmoo | Yeah. What vontrapp said |
| 21:56.20 | sjansen | I'm pro-protocol, anti-ip. |
| 21:56.25 | nick125 | sjansen: same here |
| 21:56.43 | RedHeron | sjansen: It's the same technology in use. |
| 21:56.54 | sjansen | Filtering on IP is called extortion. "I'd be a real shame if something happened to your packets." |
| 21:56.54 | dataw0lf | not really. |
| 21:56.59 | RedHeron | Shaping is shaping, whether it's shaping for destination or shaping for content. |
| 21:57.10 | dmdavis | yeah, what sjansen said. If I want to provide access to my friends, but don't want them using BT because it uses all my bandwidth, I should be able to offer that |
| 21:57.12 | RedHeron | And if it's profit-driven shaping, it's anti-consumer. |
| 21:57.19 | elg | dmdavis: http://foton.fugal.net/album/98 |
| 21:57.34 | sjansen | Filtering on IP is called priopritization. "I'd be a real shame is SMTP (spam) caused our customers calls (VOIP) to drop in quality." |
| 21:57.44 | sjansen | s/IP/protocol/ |
| 21:57.47 | dmdavis | elg: sweet, did you make that stand today? |
| 21:57.56 | elg | yeah, when I came home for lunch |
| 21:58.00 | dmdavis | nice |
| 21:58.03 | dmdavis | looks good |
| 21:58.12 | elg | it so happens that the coat hanger I had was just about the right length, so I didn't have to go buy something that could cut it |
| 21:58.14 | nick125 | sjansen: exactly |
| 21:58.17 | vontrapp | priopism? |
| 21:58.18 | RedHeron | sjansen: It's got nothing to do with prioritization, but everything to do with prioritization based on profit-driven ideals. |
| 21:58.21 | elg | it was one of those hangers with cardboard for the bottom part |
| 21:58.25 | sjansen | So because I can make more money providing crystal clear VOIP calls than pumping spam, it should be illegal? |
| 21:58.41 | RedHeron | sjansen: That has nothing to do with the argument. |
| 21:58.50 | sjansen | It has everythign to do with the argument. |
| 21:58.53 | dataw0lf | sure it does. |
| 21:58.58 | RedHeron | Bullshit. |
| 21:59.03 | dataw0lf | Language. |
| 21:59.04 | sjansen | All the reading of legislation will do no good if you don't understand the tech. |
| 21:59.05 | vontrapp | ~warn RedHeron |
| 21:59.06 | dmdavis | profit-driven is often the same as pro-consumer. You make money by providing things the consumer wants |
| 21:59.31 | RedHeron | You're not understanding the argument. |
| 21:59.32 | fozzmoo | I would imagine a similar controversy may have come up in the early days of the US with shipping lanes. |
| 21:59.41 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Actually, no. |
| 21:59.42 | fozzmoo | and ports. |
| 21:59.49 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: And no on that, too. |
| 21:59.50 | dataw0lf | I think sjansen is understanding the argument fine, and previously actually agreed with you to an extent, RedHeron |
| 21:59.51 | vontrapp | yeah, i don't know where you get the idea that good business practice (making more money) is anti-consumer |
| 22:00.08 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: I think he agreed to a point, but nbow he's misdirecting. |
| 22:00.08 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: Because corporations are the enemy. |
| 22:00.11 | dmdavis | If I want to provide internet to my neighbors who don't have it, but I have limited bandwidth, why can't I offer them a service that disallows bit torrent, rather than none at all? |
| 22:00.18 | dataw0lf | There's prioritization and shaping that can benefit both consumers and providers. Like he said, prioritizing certain types of traffic depending on your business model / product |
| 22:00.30 | dataw0lf | Prioritizing based on WHOM someone is is different. |
| 22:00.34 | dataw0lf | And sjansen said that. |
| 22:00.47 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not anti-consumer to make more money. It's anti-consumer to make more money by charging both the end user AND the web site owner for the same traffic. |
| 22:00.48 | nick125 | I believe in *prioritization* based upon protocol, not based upon IP. Each network is a limited amount of resources, and it is the duty of the provider to manage that network. Considering that the top 5% of users use 50% of the bandwidth on the network, what's up with that? |
| 22:00.57 | vontrapp | and limit pr0n sites because those eat a lot of bandwidth too |
| 22:01.01 | sjansen | RedHeron: Why? |
| 22:01.02 | dataw0lf | whoa, whoa, whoa |
| 22:01.05 | dmdavis | RedHeron: that's different than filtering bit torrent |
| 22:01.07 | dataw0lf | no limiting of the pr0n, sir. |
| 22:01.19 | dataw0lf | you shouldn't limit based on content, either. |
| 22:01.24 | dataw0lf | if it's HTTP traffic it's HTTP traffic |
| 22:01.33 | dataw0lf | if it's bittorrent traffic it's bittorrent traffic |
| 22:01.44 | dataw0lf | you can't say that "oh I agree with what this person is transferring via HTTP, but not this person" |
| 22:01.53 | dataw0lf | that's just as bad (if not worse) as prioritization based on IP. |
| 22:01.58 | nick125 | (I made two arguments in that statement: limit the high users or put a known cap on the traffic *and* prioritize traffic that needs it) |
| 22:02.00 | sjansen | Sure, limiting on content should be fine. If it looks like spam and smells like spam it should be lower priority to your MTA. |
| 22:02.09 | RedHeron | sjansen, dmdavis, dataw0lf: NN is about allowing the choice to choose what you want to see and shaping traffic responsibly, not removing priority for something that's a competing technology. |
| 22:02.24 | vontrapp | dataw0lf: i didn't say pr0n was bad (it is, but besides th point) i said it takes too much bandwidth |
| 22:02.28 | fozzmoo | If Comcast, for example, were to do ANYTHING to the traffic they carry, then they should be willing to face the consequences of that decision. |
| 22:02.35 | nick125 | sjansen: But you could also make the argument that providers should be dumb pipe providers and not *touch* the traffic on those pipes. |
| 22:02.36 | RedHeron | nick125: I'm in favor on both those arguments. |
| 22:02.38 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Spam is illegal. |
| 22:02.42 | dataw0lf | I'm talking about porn here. |
| 22:02.54 | fozzmoo | I don't think legislation should tell Comcast how they should process traffic. |
| 22:03.03 | dataw0lf | Just because people take up "too much bandwidth" using porn does not mean they should be more limited to you browsing the LDS website |
| 22:03.06 | dataw0lf | That's ridiculous. |
| 22:03.15 | vontrapp | RedHeron: problem is letting government decide what "responsible shaping" is |
| 22:03.38 | dataw0lf | if it's not illegal (spam, botnet encrypted traffic, etc), it shouldn't be regulated on content. |
| 22:03.38 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They have a pretty good idea, actually, based on what I read in the legislation. |
| 22:03.39 | sjansen | Legislation should encourage competition, not stifle innovation. Full stop. I'm done. (Really, for sure, this time I mean it.... hopefully.) |
| 22:03.55 | RedHeron | sjansen: That's why NN legislation is needed. |
| 22:04.11 | fozzmoo | legislation should just leave competition and innovation alone. |
| 22:04.16 | vontrapp | RedHeron: they have no business deciding what's responsible for the economy, the consumer, the business or any of that |
| 22:04.19 | fozzmoo | Or rather, there should be no legislation. :) |
| 22:04.20 | dmdavis | dataw0lf: what if I offer a service that provides internet access filtered for porn, that you can use if you want. should I not be allowed to offer that to those who want? |
| 22:04.28 | sjansen | That's why _competition_ is needed. Competition means differentiation. Which means.... not being neautral. |
| 22:04.31 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Heh. |
| 22:04.45 | RedHeron | sjansen: No, neutral means pro-competition |
| 22:04.51 | dataw0lf | dmdavis: sure, filtered for porn. That's different than reprioritizing porn traffic |
| 22:04.59 | RedHeron | Neutral doesn't mean "exactly equal on all counts". |
| 22:05.01 | fozzmoo | Any time you ask the federal government to get involved in any way shape or form with the Internet, think of Ted Stevens. |
| 22:05.21 | vontrapp | RedHeron: nn _legislation_ means more encumberement upon our services |
| 22:05.29 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: I do. Which is why I read legislation when it involves anything Internet-related. |
| 22:05.38 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You obviously haven't read the bill. |
| 22:05.51 | sjansen | Okay, let's look at it this way, China's regulation of power has lead to poor infrastructure and will soon limit the economic development essential to competition. |
| 22:06.01 | vontrapp | RedHeron: does it or does it not say you can't do certain things?!? |
| 22:06.05 | sjansen | If we're not careful, the same will happen here. |
| 22:06.10 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Read it and see. |
| 22:06.11 | dataw0lf | sjansen: is that why I have so many fault chinese made goods in my house? |
| 22:06.15 | dataw0lf | faulty* |
| 22:06.18 | dmdavis | dataw0lf: but reprioritizing could be a business decision as well. I choose to offer a service optimized for VOIP, or porn, or whatever. I prioritize based on content, and people can choose me if that's what they want |
| 22:06.29 | sjansen | Writing laws requiring that all toasters accept bread from any baker won't improve the power grid. |
| 22:06.29 | fozzmoo | dmdavis: Right. |
| 22:06.32 | RedHeron | dmdavis: Except if there isn't a choice? |
| 22:06.33 | tensai | my company has been rolling out voip service over this last year. I'll tell you that the single hardest thing has been complying with the voice regulations. |
| 22:06.47 | tensai | more regulations does not sound like a good idea to me |
| 22:06.57 | fozzmoo | So, if an Orem-based ISP wants to actively filter packets for morally-pure content, customers who want that can subscribe. |
| 22:06.57 | sjansen | Writing laws requiring all power companies to allow any toaster to be plugged in won't improve the power grid. |
| 22:07.06 | dmdavis | RedHeron: there's one more choice than before I began offering my service |
| 22:07.07 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you keep coming back to this "if there isn't a choice thing" |
| 22:07.10 | RedHeron | tensai: Yeah, VoIP is a bitch. But NN lowers the regulation of the net. |
| 22:07.23 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Exactly. But it will make it more expensive to get into the business of providing power. :) |
| 22:07.23 | vontrapp | so focus on making choices available, NOT on forcing nuetrality on the net |
| 22:07.30 | tensai | lowers the regulation of the net??? it's unregulated now. |
| 22:07.35 | sjansen | Allowing companies to cut off power to residential air condition to continue to provide power to industry will keep the power grid alive. |
| 22:07.35 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because in many places, there is NOT a choice because the barrier to entry is too high. |
| 22:07.37 | dataw0lf | well there's a big difference between a local ISP actively filtering packets, and one of the handful of companies that owns the internet backbone filtering traffic. |
| 22:07.44 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so fix THAT |
| 22:07.48 | RedHeron | tensai: VoIP is unregulated??? Okay.... |
| 22:08.03 | sjansen | Of course, companies want to profit so they want to sell power to residential and industrial users. |
| 22:08.03 | dataw0lf | if Comcast wants to offer a "porn free" service to people, fine. As long as they don't reprioritize other customers who don't use that porn free service. |
| 22:08.05 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's what NN is about: lowering those kinds of barriers to competition. |
| 22:08.11 | vontrapp | RedHeron: DON'T make more laws that make it harder for new compainies to provide specialized services!!! |
| 22:08.12 | sjansen | If they're allowed to, they'll increase their capacity. |
| 22:08.24 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Read the damn legislation already! |
| 22:08.30 | fozzmoo | This sounds like a really good MODERATED panel discussion at a future PLUG meeting or some4thing. |
| 22:08.48 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: Are you reading? |
| 22:08.49 | sjansen | Now lets switch back to broadband. You can't focuse on Google vs. Yahoo at the expense of ignore the fact _infrastructure isn't free_. |
| 22:08.52 | dmdavis | let's say I live in Alaska, and there's no internet access where I am. I get satellite internet and offer it to my neighbors, explaining that I won't allow BT because I can't afford the bandwidth. Would you make that illegal? |
| 22:08.53 | tensai | RedHeron: the internet is not regulated. you're saying that NN lowers regulation for /voip/ on the internet? that's different. |
| 22:08.59 | RedHeron | Geez, you're arguing about things in the legislation that are provided for, and which are provided against, without having ever read it. |
| 22:09.09 | sjansen | If we regulated broadband providers too closely, they'll have no incentive to invest in infrastructure. |
| 22:09.11 | vontrapp | RedHeron: just because PART of it says competition will be increased doesn't mean everything in it is good |
| 22:09.16 | dataw0lf | dmdavis: when have I said that? |
| 22:09.20 | RedHeron | I'm done with that until you read it. And I'll even grab the URL so you can actually read the bill. |
| 22:09.31 | dmdavis | dataw0lf: not you, that was more directed at RedHeron. sorry |
| 22:09.58 | RedHeron | http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.5273: |
| 22:10.01 | brac | [Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)] |
| 22:10.18 | RedHeron | Read the act. Then tell me whether or not you disagree with any of it. |
| 22:10.44 | vontrapp | i disagree with the part that makes filtering illegal in any small amount |
| 22:10.57 | fozzmoo | Wow. I already disagree with just about every single one of the findings at the top. |
| 22:11.20 | RedHeron | Oh? |
| 22:11.30 | fozzmoo | Well, #1 and #2 are no brainers. |
| 22:11.43 | fozzmoo | #3 is silly and is probably the entire basis for the legislation. |
| 22:12.00 | RedHeron | Those are all based on empirical research, and ALL of those are the basis for the legislation. |
| 22:12.20 | RedHeron | The problem is that they're actually not just making it up. |
| 22:12.28 | fozzmoo | And #4 makes a terrible presumption that the US is the "global leader in high technology." |
| 22:12.42 | dataw0lf | heh |
| 22:12.43 | fozzmoo | Was this written 10 years ago or something? |
| 22:12.50 | RedHeron | Well, read that as: we "were" the leaders. |
| 22:13.03 | RedHeron | They're framing an historical context. |
| 22:13.22 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: No, it was written by politicians who have to write legalese. |
| 22:13.33 | RedHeron | So, *started* 10 years ago. |
| 22:13.53 | fozzmoo | Yeah. #4 doesn't lend much credibility to the document. |
| 22:14.01 | fozzmoo | And it forms a compelling basis for opposition. |
| 22:14.14 | RedHeron | It's historically-based, and a fact before 1990. |
| 22:14.25 | fozzmoo | The Internet didn't get where it is today because any body or groups of people (i.e. governments) decided anything was vital or not. |
| 22:14.35 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Yes it did! |
| 22:14.48 | dmdavis | It seems to me that if someone wants to offer a service, they should be able to offer what they want, even if it's prioritized or filtered or whatever, as long as what they provide is clear and honest. If the government wants to make sure everyone has access, don't force a company to provide a service they aren't in business for. |
| 22:14.52 | fozzmoo | Nobody except the backbone providers. |
| 22:14.58 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: ARPA, university research projects funded by government... THOSE built the internet! |
| 22:15.08 | fozzmoo | Those built the ARPAnet. |
| 22:15.13 | fozzmoo | which formed the basis of the Internet. |
| 22:15.20 | mrpull- | ~links |
| 22:15.21 | ibot | Lynx-like text WWW browser. URL: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~mikulas/links/ |
| 22:15.30 | sjansen | ~urls |
| 22:15.33 | fozzmoo | And the ARPAnet and the early days of the Internet had nothing to do with economic prosperity. |
| 22:15.33 | mrpull- | hrmm... that isn't what I wanted |
| 22:15.36 | mrpull- | thanks sjansen |
| 22:15.47 | sjansen | -urls |
| 22:15.47 | brac | [2008/02/14 15:15:25] <ibot> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~mikulas/links/ |
| 22:15.48 | brac | [2008/02/14 15:10:01] <RedHeron> http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.5273: |
| 22:15.48 | brac | [2008/02/14 14:35:18] <RedHeron> http://www.youtube.com/v/cWt0XUocViE |
| 22:15.48 | brac | [2008/02/14 14:33:57] <RedHeron> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/03/0440259&from=rss |
| 22:15.52 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Thing a LITTLE more broadly. |
| 22:16.11 | mrpull- | Doesn't this link have #utah ties? |
| 22:16.12 | mrpull- | http://failblog.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/u-fail/ |
| 22:16.16 | fozzmoo | By the time the Internet became synonymous with profit and prosperity, I'd be willing to suggest the government wasn't involved that much anymore. |
| 22:16.38 | vontrapp | RedHeron: the internet could never be made to be not nuetral no matter who wanted to make it so |
| 22:16.40 | fozzmoo | In fact, I remember the NSF pulling funding for bandwidth in 1995 |
| 22:16.41 | RedHeron | "telecommunications infrastructure" is not synonymous with "internet" from an historical perspective. |
| 22:16.49 | fozzmoo | After that, it was all commercial backbone providers. |
| 22:16.51 | vontrapp | just because you have a small problem with bittorrent doesn't mean the internet is in grave danger |
| 22:16.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Comcast already HAS made it so! |
| 22:16.56 | vontrapp | the market WILL adjust |
| 22:17.08 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'll believe that when I see it. It hasn't in 10 years. |
| 22:17.18 | RedHeron | In fact, it's getting worse, not better. |
| 22:17.26 | fozzmoo | In the US. Not worldwide. |
| 22:17.33 | vontrapp | oh on! poor bt users have been stepped on for 10 years! |
| 22:17.34 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Huh??? |
| 22:17.42 | fozzmoo | Again.. that world leadership balogna. |
| 22:17.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And FTP, and telnet... |
| 22:18.14 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: I don't get what you mean. |
| 22:18.16 | vontrapp | cry me a river, get better internet, move, whatever |
| 22:18.32 | vontrapp | either you can live with comcast or you can't |
| 22:18.37 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: I'd explain it more, but I have to go pick up a kid at schoool. Maybe I'll blog about it or something. |
| 22:18.46 | vontrapp | as long as you live with comcast then they are getting your money |
| 22:18.49 | fozzmoo | We definitely need to have this discussion out in the open so it more widely understood. |
| 22:18.49 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You just don't care because it doesn't personally affect YOU. |
| 22:18.57 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i HAVE comcast |
| 22:19.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: My statement stands., |
| 22:19.21 | vontrapp | i use bt |
| 22:19.22 | fozzmoo | I say, you don't like how Comcast routes your traffic? Erect a VPN. :) |
| 22:19.27 | RedHeron | So? |
| 22:19.35 | vontrapp | so it's annoying that i can't seed |
| 22:19.46 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: They slow encrypted traffic, too. |
| 22:19.47 | vontrapp | i'm not going to go crying to uncle sam to fix it for me |
| 22:20.02 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So fix it, then. |
| 22:20.16 | vontrapp | if i really cared i'd get a different provider |
| 22:20.31 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You just don't care because it doesn't personally affect YOU. Prooved. |
| 22:20.33 | vontrapp | fact is, comcast is WAY better than my last provider |
| 22:20.35 | sjansen | If broadband is so vital to your prosperity, you'd move. |
| 22:20.52 | RedHeron | sjansen: If I could afford to. |
| 22:20.54 | vontrapp | what sjansen said |
| 22:21.05 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you can afford comcast... |
| 22:21.07 | fozzmoo | Oh, so this is all about entitlement. |
| 22:21.17 | sjansen | If broadband were so vital to your prosperity, you couldn't afford not to move. |
| 22:21.28 | fozzmoo | We're ENTITLED to the same Internet service everywhere, anytime, anyone. |
| 22:21.45 | RedHeron | sjansen: I'd have to have the prosperity first. |
| 22:21.50 | fozzmoo | That's what this seems to be about. |
| 22:21.51 | sjansen | Why should I pay for poorer infrastructure because you can't be bothered to find another provider? |
| 22:21.57 | vontrapp | people move all the time |
| 22:22.04 | vontrapp | poor people even |
| 22:22.16 | RedHeron | That's an inverse argument, sjansen. |
| 22:22.34 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Poor, usually only when forced out. |
| 22:22.47 | vontrapp | so consider comcast as forcing you out |
| 22:22.48 | sjansen | If Comcast can't respond to the needs of its install base because a small number of whiners, I suffer. |
| 22:23.16 | RedHeron | sjansen: Suffer how? |
| 22:23.50 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'll ignore that since it doesn't follow. |
| 22:23.53 | sjansen | What's Comcasts incentive to build infrastructure, if govt is just getting in the way tell it how to use it? |
| 22:24.04 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so it doesn't apply personally to YOU |
| 22:24.13 | vontrapp | because you don't care enough to do something about it |
| 22:24.34 | RedHeron | sjansen: Comcast didn't build 90% of their infrastructure... guesses as to who did? |
| 22:24.55 | vontrapp | RedHeron: correction, comcast built 100% of _their_ infrastructure |
| 22:25.08 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Use a six-ton drop hammer to open any coconuts recently? |
| 22:25.09 | vontrapp | so maybe they use someone elses? |
| 22:25.14 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Nope. |
| 22:25.36 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They built 10% of their infrastructure. |
| 22:25.39 | vontrapp | um, if they didn't build it, or they didn't buy it, then it's not their infrastructure |
| 22:26.14 | RedHeron | They own it because they bought it for less than the cost of building it. |
| 22:26.27 | RedHeron | Any guesses as to who built it, and how? |
| 22:26.47 | vontrapp | so it's their infrastructuer, they bought it |
| 22:26.51 | sjansen | Why should anyone else bother bringing a connection to your house if they're just going to provide the same lousy speeds as Comcast because bittorrent users suck all the bandwidth? |
| 22:26.55 | RedHeron | AT&T built it, using government grants funded by taxpayers. |
| 22:27.11 | RedHeron | sjansen: BT users don't "suck all the bandwidth". |
| 22:27.13 | sjansen | It doesn't matter who build 90% of the infrastructure, what matters is the line to your house. |
| 22:27.27 | RedHeron | sjansen: Comcast overbooks their networks. |
| 22:27.30 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i said from the very get go that the problem was government subsidies, NOT net nuetrality |
| 22:27.42 | sjansen | There should be multiple providers with lines to your house, and they should be allowed to differentiate themselves. |
| 22:27.46 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Net neutrality is now the issue BECAUSE of those subsidies. |
| 22:27.55 | RedHeron | sjansen: That would be nice. |
| 22:28.08 | vontrapp | no, anti-competition is the issue because of those subsidies |
| 22:28.24 | dataw0lf | alright, let's just get one thing straight, RedHeron, BitTorrent is a huge bandwidth hog. It's completely unoptimized for network usage. |
| 22:28.25 | RedHeron | vontrapp: NN is about lowering the barriers to competing business. |
| 22:28.35 | sjansen | So solve that problem, not filtering. Push your city to building fiber infrastructure. Make sure the fed doesn't get in the way. |
| 22:28.42 | vontrapp | RedHeron: NN is about making the net nuetral |
| 22:28.44 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: True, but it only accounts for 40% of all traffic. |
| 22:28.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Which means? |
| 22:28.58 | sjansen | Quit wasting your time trying to legislate Comcast into good behavior, make it possible for someone to replace Comcast. |
| 22:29.02 | vontrapp | I want legislation that reverses the other legislation that stifles competition! |
| 22:29.06 | dataw0lf | one protocol accounts for 40% of all traffic |
| 22:29.11 | RedHeron | sjansen: How do you propose to do that? |
| 22:29.14 | dataw0lf | there shouldn't be an "only" in there. |
| 22:29.16 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: 55% is HTTP. |
| 22:29.26 | vontrapp | maybe NN provides that, but not purely, it has sinister dark roads hidden in it |
| 22:29.39 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@psnet.cc) |
| 22:29.39 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:29.41 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Read the legislation and tell me any you find. |
| 22:29.44 | Supaplex | and so does pr0n |
| 22:29.55 | RedHeron | Supaplex: Hey, leave my pr0n alone! |
| 22:29.56 | sjansen | For starters, focus you time fighting the interests that want to make Utopia and iProvo illegal. |
| 22:30.07 | dataw0lf | RedHeron: HTTP is stateless. |
| 22:30.09 | RedHeron | sjansen: That's also covered by NN. |
| 22:30.43 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i agree with the parts of NN that fix competition, but that's not the ONLY thing it does |
| 22:30.49 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: It still counts for a high degree of traffic... and if it was stateful, it would crowd everything else and we'd be in an even worse fix. |
| 22:31.04 | dataw0lf | like bittorrent? |
| 22:31.05 | RedHeron | vontrapp: True, so make your case as to why the rest isn't positive. |
| 22:31.19 | dataw0lf | where 1 download can initiate hundreds of stateful connections? |
| 22:31.20 | vontrapp | because it makes things illegal that shouldn't be! |
| 22:31.36 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Like? |
| 22:31.41 | vontrapp | it forces comcast to treat all traffic equal, for example |
| 22:31.48 | sjansen | RedHeron: Where in the law do it do that? I must have missed it. |
| 22:31.52 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: And if there are close-proximity connections, why is that bad? |
| 22:32.07 | dataw0lf | you just said it would be bad if HTTP did it. |
| 22:32.33 | dataw0lf | I'm telling you that since BitTorrent is such a crappy protocol that overutilizes bandwidth, it makes sense that one would want to reprioritize it |
| 22:32.56 | RedHeron | sjansen: NN is about providing fair and open network markets... thus, pro-competitive practices not only on existing networks, but also expansion of capacity such as Utopia. |
| 22:33.04 | sjansen | RedHeron: Don't you find it strange that so many bandwidth loving techies oppose you, and no one is step forward to defend you? |
| 22:33.06 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: I didn't say it would be bad... |
| 22:33.31 | RedHeron | sjansen: Actually, no. It's because of the FUD and lack of education out there about what NN is and does. |
| 22:33.35 | dataw0lf | "<RedHeron> dataw0lf: It still counts for a high degree of traffic... and if it was stateful, it would crowd everything else and we'd be in an even worse fix" |
| 22:33.57 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: That's relative to the BT/HTTP conflict. |
| 22:34.08 | sjansen | RedHeron: What line in the law states "no state or federal law shall or can prevent municipalities from providing network infrastructure"? |
| 22:34.09 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: So are you opposed to the use of BT? |
| 22:34.12 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so tell me, educate me, does or does not NN create new laws and requirements on network providers? |
| 22:34.25 | sjansen | All I'm hearing is hand-wavey "it protects competition"! |
| 22:34.26 | dataw0lf | me? No. But I see the need for some providers to reprioritize certain protocols. |
| 22:34.35 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@195.sub-166-161-154.myvzw.com) |
| 22:34.51 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I keep trying, and you keep resisting. |
| 22:35.01 | vontrapp | YES OR NO! |
| 22:35.12 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Read the bill. |
| 22:35.23 | vontrapp | there you go, simple question, you can't answer it |
| 22:35.26 | dataw0lf | Bah. |
| 22:35.31 | RedHeron | sjansen: Which is the crux of your argument about Utopia... |
| 22:35.32 | dataw0lf | this conversation is going absolutely nowhere. |
| 22:35.40 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The bill will answwer it. |
| 22:35.43 | sjansen | RedHeron: If you're so certain the bill supports your argument, give us line numbers that prove us wrong. |
| 22:35.54 | dataw0lf | Anyone seen that video of the quadraplegic man being dumped from his wheelchair by a sheriff's deputy? |
| 22:35.58 | sjansen | Quit assuming we haven't read it. |
| 22:36.01 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You don't take my word for it, and you're arguing about lots of stuff that you aren't informed about. |
| 22:36.10 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: I haven't. |
| 22:36.22 | RedHeron | sjansen: I'm assuming vontrapp hasn't read it. |
| 22:36.28 | sjansen | If you're going to argue we're uninformed, you're going to have to admit you're doing a lousy job of informing. |
| 22:36.35 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i've never heard you say that NN doesn't legislate "responsible shaping" |
| 22:36.40 | RedHeron | sjansen: I didn't say YOU, I said vontrapp. |
| 22:36.47 | dataw0lf | http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/13/wheelchair.dumping/ |
| 22:36.49 | brac | [Sheriff apologizes to man dumped from wheelchair - CNN.com] |
| 22:36.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So read the bill and find out. |
| 22:36.56 | vontrapp | in fact, i think you said it did, or at least that you think goverment should decide what's responsible |
| 22:37.02 | vontrapp | and i say no to that |
| 22:37.24 | vontrapp | if my arguments against the bill are based on what you say about it, and you're for it, why w ould reading it change my mind? |
| 22:37.26 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Essentially, you're deciding that the government shouldn't regulate freedom of speech, in that case. |
| 22:37.48 | vontrapp | i'm saying the government should not regulate speach, PERIOD! |
| 22:38.00 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You mean like the First Amendment? |
| 22:38.18 | RedHeron | If you don't regulate it into the law, it's regulated out of the law. History proves that. |
| 22:38.23 | vontrapp | the first amendment doesn't regulate anything, it simply says "people can talk" |
| 22:38.39 | vontrapp | it doesn't say i can't punch you if you call me names |
| 22:38.55 | vontrapp | it doesn't say i can't block my driveway from you if you drive a bulldozer |
| 22:39.52 | RedHeron | vontrapp: But it does say the governing body can't legislate what you're allowed to say. |
| 22:40.09 | vontrapp | comcast isn't a governing body |
| 22:40.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They are, actually. They govern their users' connections. And that's also a matter of law. |
| 22:40.37 | vontrapp | bull |
| 22:40.41 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The First Amendment also says you're allowed to express sentiment against the government. |
| 22:40.55 | vontrapp | which i'm doing right now |
| 22:41.05 | vontrapp | and you're expressing sentiment agains comcast |
| 22:41.15 | vontrapp | wee, we can all speak freely |
| 22:41.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It was proved in the 1980's that telecommunication companies were governing bodies when they provide a service to the public... they "govern" the service they provide. |
| 22:42.00 | vontrapp | and why shouldn't they? |
| 22:42.07 | RedHeron | If you're not allowed to choose what you see, when you see it, that is against freedom of speech. |
| 22:42.11 | vontrapp | i govern what i eat |
| 22:42.16 | vontrapp | does that make me a governing body? |
| 22:42.41 | RedHeron | vontrapp: In the privacy of your own home, the government can't decide for you (4th Amendment). |
| 22:42.43 | dmdavis | I restrict my children's freedom of speech then, just so you know :) |
| 22:42.49 | vontrapp | i might put parental controls on my tv, does that make me a governing body? |
| 22:42.52 | RedHeron | dmdavis: See 4th amendment, above. |
| 22:43.01 | moriancumer | How do stop these attempts on my ssh from happening? from my /var/log/auth.log |
| 22:43.03 | RedHeron | vontrapp: See 4th amendment, above. |
| 22:43.15 | dmdavis | BYU doesn't allow porn |
| 22:43.30 | vontrapp | i don't see a 4th amendment above |
| 22:43.31 | rsimpkins | moriancumer: ?? |
| 22:43.39 | elg | phew |
| 22:43.41 | moriancumer | Feb 14 15:42:43 zarahemla sshd[28013]: Failed password for invalid user testing from 125.186.217.157 port 54119 ssh2 |
| 22:43.51 | rsimpkins | moriancumer: Move your SSH port. |
| 22:43.52 | RedHeron | dmdavis: BYU is not a service provider, and as a private entity (i.e., not open to the general public), they are exempted by the same 4th amendment rights. |
| 22:44.03 | rsimpkins | moriancumer: If you don't wanna do that, I use ip_recent module with iptables. |
| 22:44.12 | sjansen | Governments have guns. Comcast doesn't. |
| 22:44.14 | rsimpkins | moriancumer: there are a zillion how-tos via google search. :) |
| 22:44.27 | moriancumer | sjansen: I know nothing about iptables |
| 22:44.28 | RedHeron | sjansen: People have guns, too, but that doesn't mean they can use them. |
| 22:44.29 | sjansen | Governments can take your money without providing a service. Comcast can't. |
| 22:44.32 | rsimpkins | sjansen: aren't the people suppose to have guns too? |
| 22:44.36 | dmdavis | how is BYU only allowing certain students in different from Comcast only allowing paying customers to use the service they choose to provide? |
| 22:44.43 | RedHeron | sjansen: That's "taxation without representation". |
| 22:44.52 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: Don't you think this would be a good moderated panel discussion at a PLUG meeting? |
| 22:45.04 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I think it makes a better IRC flame. :) |
| 22:45.20 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: If we got the right legal experts, etc, yeah, it would. |
| 22:45.24 | sjansen | Comcast is not a government. |
| 22:45.35 | vontrapp | RedHeron: comcast is a private entity, providing private services to paying customers |
| 22:45.44 | RedHeron | sjansen: No, they're a "governing body". |
| 22:45.50 | vontrapp | it can do whatever the hell it wants |
| 22:45.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They provide service to the general public. |
| 22:46.09 | sjansen | Telcoms might have been monopolies, giving them powers like governments, but the solution is to end the monopoly, not enshrine the power. |
| 22:46.11 | dmdavis | so do all companies. and they choose what service to provide the public |
| 22:46.13 | vontrapp | RedHeron: my grocery store provides service to the general public |
| 22:46.18 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: That makes no sense. |
| 22:46.24 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: It's the law. |
| 22:46.33 | vontrapp | RedHeron: it shouldn't be |
| 22:46.34 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: Yeah, and it makese no sense. :) |
| 22:46.35 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Apples and oranges are both fruit, but are not the same. |
| 22:46.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: First Amendment and Fourth Amendment shouldn't be laws??? |
| 22:47.06 | vontrapp | so if my grocery store didn't sell oranges, i would have to legislate for fruit nuetrality? |
| 22:47.06 | dmdavis | explain why Comcast should be forced to provide a service that they aren't in business to provide? |
| 22:47.25 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're now trolling the argument, and I'm disengaging until you return to some semblance of sense. |
| 22:47.25 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: no no no. Use so-called experts. |
| 22:47.35 | RedHeron | dmdavis: WHat do you mean? |
| 22:47.38 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Oh, right 'so-called experts' forgot about those. |
| 22:47.39 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i'm drawing analogies to your argument |
| 22:47.49 | vontrapp | and you're not successfully waying why your argument is different |
| 22:47.53 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I think CNN and FOX NEWS have all of them employed. |
| 22:47.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Your analogies are non-sequitur. |
| 22:48.04 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: They're in surplus, I hear. |
| 22:48.05 | dmdavis | Comcast wants to provide internet with BT filtered. they will charge, you can pay. can the gov't say no, you have to provide internet with BT? |
| 22:48.07 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They don't match at all. |
| 22:48.09 | dmdavis | should they? |
| 22:48.25 | vontrapp | should they? |
| 22:48.30 | vontrapp | c'mon RedHeron |
| 22:48.33 | RedHeron | dmdavis: No, but they can say that Comcast has to justify better why they're allowed to filter BT. |
| 22:48.37 | fozzmoo | Okay. let me shock everyone with a Windows 2003 server question. |
| 22:48.37 | JoshH | honestly, since most people don't have a viable alternative to comcast, i think yes |
| 22:48.43 | dmdavis | why? |
| 22:48.45 | JoshH | but that's the only reason |
| 22:48.52 | rsimpkins | When are we going to remember that the Internet is nothing more than a bunch of private organizations that have decided to play along. That's it. A bunch of loose agreements. |
| 22:48.56 | fozzmoo | I'm working on this server via remote desktop... keeps prompting me to reboot the computer to apply updates. |
| 22:48.57 | vontrapp | bull, my grocery store shouldn't have to justify why they don't sell mangos |
| 22:48.59 | dmdavis | I want to provide a grocery store with no oranges. no justification, i just don't sell them. |
| 22:49.00 | JoshH | if anyone could get broadband from a multitude of companies with different policies, i'd feel differently |
| 22:49.02 | dmdavis | :) |
| 22:49.04 | vontrapp | they're too expensive, nobody would buy them |
| 22:49.22 | fozzmoo | How do I configure this server to not try to reboot during business hours? |
| 22:49.32 | RedHeron | dmdavis: Because as a regulatory agency (even though they're a private company, they still count), they are required to conform to the Constitutional rights as a governing body. |
| 22:49.48 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: lol. :) |
| 22:49.58 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so this regulatory agency bull is fourth amendment? |
| 22:50.04 | tensai | fozzmoo: it shouldn't forcibly reboot on you. it will just annoy you to death with reminders. |
| 22:50.09 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Yes. |
| 22:50.15 | vontrapp | how? |
| 22:50.20 | tensai | fozzmoo: I haven't found a good way around it short of moving the popup window off screen |
| 22:50.30 | vontrapp | how is comcast different htan a grocery store? |
| 22:50.41 | dmdavis | so, you would disallow me from providing internet to neighbors if I disallow BT, due to lack of bandwidth? |
| 22:50.44 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: If you wait to long it usually locks up. :) |
| 22:50.44 | RedHeron | vontrapp: One provides telecommunications. One does not. |
| 22:50.45 | vontrapp | or cable tv? or anything else? |
| 22:51.05 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Cable TV is also telecommunications, but one-way and non-interactive (in general). |
| 22:51.06 | levi | vontrapp: There are lots of differences between Comcast and a grocery store. |
| 22:51.12 | JoshH | vontrapp: it's not joe blow can start a cable company and lay lines next to comcast's, and say switch to me and i'll offer BT. anyone CAN start up a grocery store |
| 22:51.16 | vontrapp | i don't see anything about telecommunications in the fourth ammendment |
| 22:51.44 | rsimpkins | levi: I believe grocery stores are regulated. by the health department. aren't they? |
| 22:51.48 | vontrapp | JoshH: my argument all along has been to allow someone to start a new isp in that manner |
| 22:51.57 | vontrapp | NOT to force "responsible shaping" |
| 22:52.01 | levi | rsimpkins: I wouldn't be surprised. |
| 22:52.03 | JoshH | ah, well i just barely started paying attention, sorry :) |
| 22:52.15 | rsimpkins | Why don't we all do the sensible thing? Show Comcast we don't like their service by not paying them any more? |
| 22:52.20 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The 4th amendment is about communications. |
| 22:52.26 | dmdavis | JoshH: why not? could I get a T1 to my house, and offer wireless to immediate neighbors, charging them? |
| 22:52.34 | JoshH | that's why i'm pro utopia. have fibers there, let any company offer the kind of service they want to over it. |
| 22:52.38 | levi | I think that people who would like to end government regulation of stuff are a bit out-of-sync with reality. |
| 22:52.50 | RedHeron | dmdavis: If you have more than (IIRC) 120 subscribers, you're a telecom. |
| 22:53.10 | vontrapp | RedHeron: and THAT's the part that's not in the 4th |
| 22:53.14 | RedHeron | dmdavis: And then you're subject to regulatory intervention. |
| 22:53.16 | rsimpkins | levi: I think we pass, nationwide, something on the order of several thousand new laws a year. It's great. :) |
| 22:53.26 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's still covered, since it's the control of communications. |
| 22:53.54 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: An average of 5,000 bills per year, an average of 800 pass. |
| 22:54.21 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: Okay, fine - 800 new passed laws a year. How many laws get revoked a year? |
| 22:54.24 | vontrapp | *sigh* i'm still not going to support NN legislation |
| 22:54.43 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: Also, are you counting state legislature as well as the feds? |
| 22:54.47 | tensai | RedHeron: internet is a data service, not a telecommunications service. offering internet does not make you a telecom. |
| 22:54.49 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: About 220 get repealed or changed in a way that makes them unenforcible. |
| 22:54.59 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: No, that's just the feds. |
| 22:55.05 | rsimpkins | RedHeron: K, add up the states too. |
| 22:55.16 | JoshH | vontrapp: honestly, if the internet/telecom industry was a truly free market, without monopolies, and a realistic barrier to entry, i'd agree |
| 22:55.16 | sjansen | levi: At the same time, those who want to use govt. to solve every problem are a bit out-of-sync with reality. |
| 22:55.21 | RedHeron | tensai: Internet itself is a data telecommunications service. |
| 22:55.24 | rsimpkins | Bottom line - we are adding tons more laws than we are getting rid of. |
| 22:55.26 | levi | rsimpkins: You end up with a different number for each state. |
| 22:55.31 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: I don't have the data on that. |
| 22:55.34 | rsimpkins | And then we complain when something is regulated or not regulated. :) |
| 22:55.37 | JoshH | but it's basically the same as a utility |
| 22:55.49 | JoshH | you can't just switch power and gas companies if you hate questar or RMP |
| 22:55.55 | vontrapp | JoshH: exactly, so make it so, don't go around lobbying for NN legislation behind the curtain of "my choices suck" |
| 22:55.55 | levi | sjansen: For some definition of 'every problem', I certainly agree. |
| 22:56.06 | RedHeron | rsimpkins: I'm against bad regulation, but pro-regulation only when it serves the interests of the public. |
| 22:56.12 | tensai | RedHeron: "data service" and "telecommunications service" have very clear fcc definitions. internet is the former, voice is the latter. |
| 22:56.39 | levi | What does Ron Paul have to say about the FCC? |
| 22:56.47 | JoshH | abolish it, i think |
| 22:56.48 | vontrapp | i honestly don't know |
| 22:56.49 | RedHeron | tensai: Legally, you're right, but it's still telecommunications... or it wouldn't fall under FCC jurisdiction. |
| 22:57.00 | levi | That would be my guess. |
| 22:57.17 | RedHeron | I'll bet Paul wants to abolish the FCC, but I haven't seen anything one way or the other. |
| 22:58.15 | vontrapp | levi: i don't see what's so bad about wanting to reverse the trend of overlegislation, abolishing money sucking government affiliates and basically being more responsible on all levels |
| 22:58.37 | JoshH | vontrapp: but the reason that doesn't happen is that the big megacorps have too much money and power, changing the whole situation simply isn't realistic |
| 22:58.48 | RedHeron | JoshH: Well said! |
| 22:59.41 | vontrapp | oh, so recognizing that things are out of control is out of touch with reality, and in touch with reality is consigning ourselves to an ever-bloating government and increasing debts |
| 22:59.47 | vontrapp | wow, i should get on the reality boat |
| 22:59.59 | JoshH | that's like saying "we should just abolish the government and live in an anarcho-capitalist paradise where everyone cooperates and pitches in their fair share" |
| 23:00.12 | JoshH | sounds good, but won't happen, meanwhile people are getting screwed |
| 23:00.13 | vontrapp | JoshH: how is it the same? |
| 23:00.34 | levi | "Help, help! I'm being repressed!" |
| 23:00.37 | vontrapp | so let's just keep letting them get screwed, because we can't change anything :'( |
| 23:00.40 | JoshH | because it's not realistic |
| 23:00.41 | JoshH | at all |
| 23:01.09 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's why we need legislation: to prevent the little guy from getting screwed by the big, powerful powers-that-be. |
| 23:02.09 | vontrapp | so we can't repeal bad laws because it's impossible, and we have to keep making more bad laws because a few are good and help the little guy |
| 23:02.23 | JoshH | we should repeal bad laws, certainly |
| 23:02.25 | JoshH | but who is going to |
| 23:02.36 | RedHeron | vontrapp: We can't repeal bad laws because there's no lobby to do so... which is why up until recently, I was supporting the Libertarians, but nothing happened. |
| 23:02.41 | vontrapp | what's wrong with seeing that a law, agency, whatever is BAD and DOING something about it!!?? |
| 23:02.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Nothing. Which is what legislation is. |
| 23:03.06 | vontrapp | JoshH: not you, because you've already consigned yourself to "reality? |
| 23:03.20 | levi | vontrapp: There's a difference between taking a rational, long-view approach to chooshing which laws and agencies are really necessary, and proposing that they all ought to be tossed on principle. |
| 23:03.21 | JoshH | i've sent emails, etc to hatch, nothing happens |
| 23:03.22 | vontrapp | s/reality?/reality"/ |
| 23:03.29 | JoshH | what should i do, pick up a gun and start a revolution? |
| 23:03.52 | RedHeron | JoshH: No, but a pen or a keyboard will do. :-) |
| 23:04.09 | vontrapp | levi: well if the step by step approach isn't working, as you say it is, then what's wrong with grander ambitions? |
| 23:04.25 | vontrapp | JoshH: that's because hatch is an idiot |
| 23:04.49 | JoshH | as are 99 percent of the people who make the decisions, and the people who vote for them |
| 23:04.50 | vontrapp | so you should want to actually root for someone who _does_ want to change things |
| 23:04.53 | levi | vontrapp: Because the 'grander ambitions' are even worse than the step-by-step approach not working. |
| 23:04.59 | JoshH | so basically, we're at the mercy of idiots |
| 23:05.27 | vontrapp | not sit there and pout that because the poeple who don't want to change things don't listen to you, so someone who wants to do something about it is going to be equally "inneffective" |
| 23:05.27 | tensai | JoshH: might as well enjoy the ride then |
| 23:05.36 | levi | I am a firm believer in the 'tragedy of the commons' effect, and the need of government intervention to avoid it. |
| 23:05.55 | JoshH | i can personally make things better about as effectively as someone living under stalin's regime could |
| 23:05.57 | sjansen | When there is a tragedy to avoid. |
| 23:06.31 | vontrapp | levi:if the little things aren't working, then perhaps the larger plans will be diminished to little things actually working |
| 23:06.33 | levi | sjansen: There are a crapload of tragedies to avoid, because people are power-hungry and prone to screwing over everyone else to improve themselves. |
| 23:07.05 | sjansen | Government has a role. Some use it too little. Others too much. Few of them bothering to think about or investigate consequences before acting. |
| 23:07.10 | levi | vontrapp: Perhaps, but that doesn't stop me from calling the ideology behind the larger plans wrong. |
| 23:07.12 | vontrapp | levi: sounds exactly like the government |
| 23:07.28 | JoshH | and comcast |
| 23:07.51 | vontrapp | you think we would just stop functioning without FCC, CIA, NSA and such? |
| 23:08.14 | RedHeron | So, vontrapp, don't take this the wrong way... but are you either an employee for or stockholder in Comcast? |
| 23:08.19 | vontrapp | so to protect ourselves from big mean comcast, give more power to bigger, meaner government |
| 23:08.22 | vontrapp | brilliant plan |
| 23:08.24 | levi | Well, without the FCC, within a few years we wouldn't be able to do anything wireless. |
| 23:08.30 | vontrapp | RedHeron: no |
| 23:08.38 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Okay, had to ask, sorry. |
| 23:09.03 | sjansen | The FCC, withing reason, is vital. As is the FDA. I'd argue the NSA and CIA are useful so long as kept in check. |
| 23:09.26 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The power of the government is only what the people give it. And in this case, if Comcast is being a bully, why not give the government a stick to beat them with (even if they never actually do)? |
| 23:09.30 | levi | The airwaves are a commons that would quickly become a tragedy without any government intervention. |
| 23:09.41 | sjansen | Now the Department of Homeland Subjugation.... |
| 23:10.01 | RedHeron | DHS = fail |
| 23:10.04 | vontrapp | RedHeron: because the government is indiscriminate of what it does with that stick once you give it to them! |
| 23:10.05 | moriancumer | what's a good to to ssh? |
| 23:10.08 | levi | I think the history of our nation shows clear evidence that corporations are even meaner than the government if they're not held in check. |
| 23:10.15 | JoshH | vontrapp: many of the same people who support giving the government unlimited power also see nothing wrong with comcast, since "it's a free market, just pick a new isp!" |
| 23:10.20 | JoshH | as if dialup is an option |
| 23:10.26 | sjansen | Government should only be used as a last resort, but it should not be avoided. |
| 23:10.37 | levi | At least the government /tries/ to protect the interest of the common people, even if it's misguided sometimes. |
| 23:10.38 | vontrapp | JoshH: i'm not for unlimited government power |
| 23:10.50 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're assuming lack of limitation in all cases. |
| 23:10.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Read up on your history. |
| 23:10.58 | JoshH | the government basically has unlimited power already |
| 23:11.16 | JoshH | i'd like them to use that for something good for a change, like making comcast stop screwing people |
| 23:11.17 | sjansen | I didn't say we should give Comcast unlimited power, I said it should be allowed to filter access so long as it is honest about what it does and others are allowed to create competing services. |
| 23:11.18 | RedHeron | JoshH: The "basically" part of that negates the "unlimited" part. |
| 23:11.29 | vontrapp | RedHeron: actually, no, i'm not for the government having ANY unlimited powers |
| 23:11.53 | JoshH | RedHeron: ok, s/basically// |
| 23:12.03 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I wasn't the one who made the statement. |
| 23:12.22 | JoshH | we used to think the government had limited power, but bush has proven otherwise :) |
| 23:12.29 | RedHeron | RedHeron: read your scrollback. |
| 23:12.31 | vontrapp | what? i said i'm not for unlimited government, you qualified MY statemnet |
| 23:13.07 | levi | vontrapp: You seem to believe that the government is a big, evil, mean thing. I believe that the government is a big, slow, clumsy thing but basically good. |
| 23:13.17 | JoshH | levi: you |
| 23:13.19 | vontrapp | levi: i think so, too |
| 23:13.26 | JoshH | you must be one of those evil socialists |
| 23:13.45 | vontrapp | levi: but i'm very cautios to give it ANY power because i KNOW how clumsy and slow it is |
| 23:13.47 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So why not allow the government the authority to slap fines on a company for breaking a civil law? |
| 23:13.58 | vontrapp | and i think whereever we can trim it back is good |
| 23:14.28 | levi | vontrapp: I'm all for trimming, but apparently for different reasons than Ron Paul is. |
| 23:14.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Trimming it back is good, but not universally wise. |
| 23:14.43 | JoshH | if the government is going to allow comcast to be the only game in town, the government should also force them to give decent service to everyone |
| 23:14.48 | vontrapp | because the government is slow and clumsy, we shouldn't give it more sticks to beat people with |
| 23:14.51 | JoshH | if we had 20 cable companies competing, that would be a different story |
| 23:14.58 | RedHeron | vontrapp: People = Comcast? |
| 23:15.20 | RedHeron | JoshH: I agree with that statement, but it's merely a theoretical and so doesn't actually apply. |
| 23:15.21 | vontrapp | RedHeron: yes, comcast is people, run by people, employs people |
| 23:15.41 | JoshH | if you think the solution is to get more competition, then i agree, but until it's there, i'm fine with the government using its power on comcast |
| 23:15.43 | vontrapp | JoshH: so focus on getting 20 cable companies |
| 23:15.45 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So why allow them to beat YOU with a stick? |
| 23:16.09 | levi | vontrapp: "focus on getting 20 cable companies"? Um, yeah. |
| 23:16.13 | vontrapp | RedHeron: exactly, i'm not going to give them that stick |
| 23:16.40 | vontrapp | levi: um, yeah indeed, get rid of subsidies and government monopolies |
| 23:16.49 | vontrapp | don't blame it on lack of NN enforcement |
| 23:16.59 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Comcast already has the stick due to lack of NN. |
| 23:17.04 | JoshH | vontrapp: but what about the meantime? |
| 23:17.17 | vontrapp | RedHeron: take away the stick, don't throw another stick into the mix |
| 23:17.22 | vontrapp | that's all i'm saying |
| 23:17.27 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The stick has to go somewhere. |
| 23:17.28 | vontrapp | JoshH: stop whining |
| 23:17.41 | vontrapp | RedHeron: yeah, it could go into a fire |
| 23:17.43 | JoshH | this is whining? |
| 23:17.44 | RedHeron | quit whining = "I don't have a good solution" |
| 23:18.04 | levi | Does the government currently subsidize Comcast? |
| 23:18.17 | vontrapp | whining to uncle sam isn't a good solution |
| 23:18.25 | JoshH | then what is? |
| 23:18.39 | JoshH | voting with your wallet by using dialup? |
| 23:18.43 | vontrapp | how about whining to comcast, or even *gasp* leaving them? |
| 23:19.06 | RedHeron | levi: Yes, in several markets at the state level, as well as one Federal subsidy in the form of grants to expand upon infrstructure. |
| 23:19.15 | JoshH | i don't use comcast myself, but lots of people have no choice, since we have one cable company and limited qwest/utopia coverage, and wisps suck |
| 23:19.16 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because there isn't an alternative. |
| 23:19.31 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so make one |
| 23:19.35 | vontrapp | move, whatever |
| 23:19.42 | tensai | JoshH: hey. not all wisps suck. |
| 23:20.01 | vontrapp | if it's not important enough for YOU to do anything about it, then why is it important enough to get the federal government involved? |
| 23:20.26 | JoshH | tensai, true, not all |
| 23:20.59 | tensai | JoshH: thank you. we do try hard. but we're not in utah, so that doesn't help anybody here. |
| 23:21.02 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I won't move simply because of service providers, just as I won't legislate because of one service provider. But when 4 of the largest corporations in the US contract 95% of the data traffic in our country, and they all want to do something anti-consumer, that's when it's time to legislate. |
| 23:21.05 | vontrapp | i think you all just need to recognize that you have no RIGHT to use bittorrent |
| 23:21.29 | vontrapp | RedHeron: there's already legislation for antitrust |
| 23:21.51 | tensai | vontrapp: they're not colluding. they're each doing stupid things independently. |
| 23:21.52 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not "antitrust" because the alternative is dialup. |
| 23:21.53 | vontrapp | 4 largest corporation all with 95% doing anticonsumer things sounds like an antitrust case to me |
| 23:22.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It would be if there was only one. |
| 23:22.15 | vontrapp | then argue that dialup isn't an alternative |
| 23:22.24 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's been argued and lost already. |
| 23:22.24 | JoshH | vontrapp, someone who pays for "internet access" has the right to use bittorrent unless they get a refund or something. |
| 23:22.40 | *** join/#utah jlp_work (n=jlp@gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.COM) |
| 23:22.43 | RedHeron | You have no right to breathe oxygen, as specified in the Constitution, either... but that doesn't mean that it isn't implied. |
| 23:23.02 | vontrapp | someone who pays for comcast gets exactly what comcast provides, no rights, wrongs, but s, ors or whine about it |
| 23:23.20 | dmdavis | JoshH: not if they pay for "internet access w/o BT" |
| 23:23.39 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Comcast promises "unfettered access" to the internet. Sandvining is fettering. Thus, they are false advertising. |
| 23:23.40 | vontrapp | RedHeron: it's called _life_ |
| 23:23.49 | vontrapp | last i checked noone died from not having BT |
| 23:24.09 | vontrapp | RedHeron: sounds like another case against comcast with existing laws |
| 23:24.20 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Your argument that something not provided for in the Constitution shouldn't have a law is invalidated with my argument. |
| 23:24.22 | vontrapp | so why do we need new ones? |
| 23:24.39 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because the existing laws don't prevent it from happening. |
| 23:24.43 | vontrapp | RedHeron: your arguments are invalidated with mine |
| 23:24.53 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Where? |
| 23:25.08 | levi | Okay, let's move on. Clearly no one's getting their opinion changed. |
| 23:25.12 | vontrapp | oh sorry, you made up your invalidation so i made up my own |
| 23:25.15 | RedHeron | I wouldn't still be arguing if all argument on my end was invalidated. |
| 23:25.18 | JoshH | vontrapp: would you leave comcast, or move, if comcast was your only option besides dialup? (assuming you really care about BT) |
| 23:25.29 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I was answering your argument. |
| 23:25.35 | vontrapp | JoshH: would you? |
| 23:25.48 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'd love to hear the answer to JoshH's question. |
| 23:25.50 | JoshH | i'd probably stick with them, and "whine" a lot |
| 23:26.26 | vontrapp | i would not, because it's not that important to me, and before you say that makes me not affected remember that YOU WON'T EITHER |
| 23:26.40 | JoshH | but what i would do |
| 23:26.48 | vontrapp | live with it? |
| 23:26.55 | RedHeron | No, what makes you unaffected is the fact that it doesn't affect you. |
| 23:26.55 | JoshH | is be in favor of government using its power to force comcast to play fair |
| 23:27.06 | vontrapp | JoshH: well that's where we dissagree |
| 23:27.25 | JoshH | it's not because i'm a commie, it's because i think monopolies should have a special set of rules |
| 23:27.32 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i use BT, i have COMCAST, how am i not affected? |
| 23:27.40 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because you don't care. |
| 23:27.41 | JoshH | it's not truly a free market |
| 23:27.50 | JoshH | if it were, i'd agree with you |
| 23:27.51 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you don't either, by your own metric |
| 23:27.57 | levi | JoshH: You commie pinko scum! |
| 23:28.15 | vontrapp | JoshH: for the last time, do something about the free market issue, go straight for the root of the problem |
| 23:28.27 | sjansen | <marquee>Can't we call just get along?</marquee> |
| 23:28.28 | tensai | JoshH: competition and a level marketplace would go a long way toward negating the whole issue |
| 23:28.28 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I care, thus I'm pro-legislation. You don't care, thus you're anti-legislation and are unaffected because you don't really want to DO anything about it. |
| 23:28.34 | JoshH | agreed |
| 23:28.47 | vontrapp | RedHeron: bull! |
| 23:28.49 | JoshH | i really think utopia is about the best solution there is |
| 23:28.53 | tensai | I like this part of the bill: (3) clearly and conspicuously disclose to users, in plain language, accurate information about the speed, nature, and limitations of their broadband service; |
| 23:28.57 | levi | I'm not clear that there is such thing as a level marketplace. |
| 23:29.00 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So prove me wrong? |
| 23:29.03 | JoshH | any provider can use the fiber, each with their own policies, filtering, etc |
| 23:29.05 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i care, i just think NN is the wrong answer |
| 23:29.28 | RedHeron | JoshH: I like that idea, I just wish that local decision-makers would pull their collective heads out, etc. |
| 23:29.39 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So what's a better answer? |
| 23:29.59 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And don't say "level the playing field" because they're stopping that, too. |
| 23:30.01 | vontrapp | i told you a hundred times! address the competition issue instead of beating comcast with a stick! |
| 23:30.09 | RedHeron | vontrapp: HOw? |
| 23:30.22 | vontrapp | with legislation, of course |
| 23:30.45 | vontrapp | specifically, repealing the legislation that hands comcast the upper hand |
| 23:30.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's the part I don't get: how do you level the field without socialist and oppressive legislation designed to control instead of opening up freedoms? |
| 23:31.05 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Such as? |
| 23:31.13 | levi | vontrapp: There is no way to address the competition issue. Removing subsidies from the current monopoly doesn't magically make it easy to replace a company with entrenched, already-subsidized infrastructure. |
| 23:31.14 | vontrapp | RedHeron: the issue is there ISN'T open freedom |
| 23:31.18 | vontrapp | so open it up |
| 23:31.30 | levi | There *can't* be open freedom. |
| 23:31.31 | vontrapp | levi: so we'll just have to be patient |
| 23:31.33 | sjansen | To be honest, government will probably have to take a pro-active role in leveling the playing field. |
| 23:31.45 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And it's not just "legislation", it's also court decisions, which can't be legislated against without a SOLID reason agreed to by 66 members of the Senate, etc. |
| 23:31.57 | JoshH | of course, the government told qwest that they don't HAVE to allow access to their lines anymore |
| 23:32.03 | sjansen | Seeing as government helped create the problem to begin with. |
| 23:32.14 | vontrapp | if NN is so very important (which it is) then the market WILL adjust |
| 23:32.22 | levi | sjansen: That sounds pretty socialistic to me! |
| 23:32.35 | vontrapp | you can speed that up by taking away comcast's struts |
| 23:32.39 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It has steadily gotten worse in the past 10 years, so HOW will it adjust? |
| 23:32.53 | vontrapp | RedHeron: by the very virtue of it getting worse |
| 23:32.54 | JoshH | vontrapp: not if the companies that control the market benefit from lack of NN, while the rest get the shaft |
| 23:32.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: HOw do you justify taking away their "struts" as you put it? |
| 23:32.59 | JoshH | that's what the government is supposed to prevent |
| 23:33.01 | vontrapp | people will eventually have enough and adjust |
| 23:33.07 | levi | vontrapp: You really believe taking the current situation and removing all subsidies and regulations would *improve* things? |
| 23:33.13 | vontrapp | RedHeron: taking away their monopoly |
| 23:33.16 | RedHeron | vontrapp: How? |
| 23:33.29 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And legally, it's not a monopoly yet. |
| 23:33.40 | vontrapp | levi: it might be a bumpy road at first, but we'll all survive, i promise |
| 23:34.02 | sjansen | Magically broadband dust. We'll sprinkle it into our carpets and our pets will track it around creating new infrastructure.... So long as we can convince everyone to stop showering. |
| 23:34.05 | vontrapp | ok, back to square one, WHY is comcast the only choice? |
| 23:34.06 | levi | vontrapp: No, there'd be an outcry, the libertarians would be kicked out of office, and regulation would be reinstated. |
| 23:34.19 | RedHeron | sjansen: I'm *so* not backing that. |
| 23:34.33 | sjansen | Well _I_ think it'd be cool. |
| 23:34.36 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=redbeard@c-76-27-48-109.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:34.44 | RedHeron | sjansen: Except the whole "not showering" part. |
| 23:34.47 | herlo | vontrapp: you live in the wrong city |
| 23:35.07 | sjansen | Oh, yeah, well sacrifices will have to be made. |
| 23:35.14 | vontrapp | herlo: i agree it is the only choice, i have no other choice raelly |
| 23:35.20 | vontrapp | i'm asking why is this so? |
| 23:35.32 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Comcast is the only option because there is no regulation preventing their barring smaller cable companies from using their infrastructure. |
| 23:35.34 | herlo | again, you live in the wrong city |
| 23:35.50 | vontrapp | but actually what people mean when they say comcast is the only choice, is simply that it's the BEST choice |
| 23:36.01 | herlo | that's not true for sure |
| 23:36.01 | vontrapp | so here we want to punish comcast for being the best choice |
| 23:36.03 | vontrapp | brilliant |
| 23:36.07 | sjansen | In the long run, markets to correct themselves. Cell phone companies, for example, are finally starting to become less evil. Of course, in the long run we're all dead. |
| 23:36.08 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Comcast is not the best choice by far. |
| 23:36.21 | vontrapp | RedHeron: then why haven't you chosen something else? |
| 23:36.37 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because it's the ONLY choice I have with which I can make money. |
| 23:36.42 | levi | sjansen: There have never really been any completely free markets to watch and see if that's true. |
| 23:36.43 | vontrapp | oh wait, sorry, moving isn't a worse choice, it's no choice at all, same with dialup |
| 23:36.51 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Which is limited because of that very choice. |
| 23:37.32 | vontrapp | RedHeron: fact remains, comcast is the best choice for you, that's why you have it, period |
| 23:37.34 | JoshH | moving and dialup are choices in fantasy land, but not on earth |
| 23:37.44 | RedHeron | My choice to NOT move is financially-based, because I don't want to have to sell my computer in order to move (and thus lose my job). |
| 23:37.54 | vontrapp | JoshH: no, they're simply very bad choice |
| 23:37.54 | JoshH | especially since most people can't even sell their homes right now |
| 23:38.10 | RedHeron | JoshH: Especially up here in Ogden. |
| 23:38.37 | vontrapp | all i'm saying is , don't punish comcast for being YOUR choice (yes, you chose it) |
| 23:38.49 | vontrapp | if you want a better choice, then do something about getting a better choice |
| 23:38.55 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Now you're sounding like a conservative. :-) |
| 23:38.59 | vontrapp | don't take a stick to comcast because you chose them in the first place |
| 23:39.10 | sjansen | Woo hoo! My bosses are discussing a company "clean and shoot". }:-) |
| 23:39.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: If I had another choice that allowed me to keep my employment, I'd take it. |
| 23:39.40 | vontrapp | RedHeron: so, you choose comcast right now, this allows you to keep your employment |
| 23:39.44 | vontrapp | sounds like a good choice to me |
| 23:39.52 | vontrapp | but you want to FORCE comcast to give you more |
| 23:39.54 | vontrapp | that is WRONG |
| 23:40.01 | levi | vontrapp: No it's not. :) |
| 23:40.12 | vontrapp | whatever, i'm done |
| 23:40.17 | levi | Thank you. |
| 23:40.20 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I'm FORCED to choose Comcast. |
| 23:40.31 | vontrapp | RedHeron: cry me a river |
| 23:40.31 | RedHeron | So what choice is that? |
| 23:40.33 | sjansen | No your not. |
| 23:40.37 | levi | My tax money subsidized Comcast. |
| 23:40.44 | RedHeron | sjansen: I am, if I want to keep my job. |
| 23:40.52 | sjansen | You could emigrate to Jamaica and become a hit producing reggae artist. |
| 23:41.01 | levi | RedHeron: Hey, he said he was done. Let's leave it at that. |
| 23:41.06 | RedHeron | sjansen: That implies I have reggae talent. Which I don't. |
| 23:41.08 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you could choose to not keep your job |
| 23:41.12 | sjansen | You're saying it would be _hard_ and you think life should be easy. |
| 23:41.25 | vontrapp | no choice is ever free, there's always upsides and downsidese |
| 23:41.38 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I could, and that would mean Comcast was responsible for my choice because I currently blame them for limiting my employment options. |
| 23:42.04 | vontrapp | you can't blame your choices on anyone |
| 23:42.04 | RedHeron | sjansen: Live should not have to be harder than I myself make it. |
| 23:42.10 | sjansen | If you're going to extrapolate to unreasonable positions about Comcasts oppression, I'm going to extrapolate to unreasonable positions about your potential. |
| 23:42.17 | RedHeron | s/Live/Life |
| 23:42.19 | sjansen | Life is hard. |
| 23:42.22 | herlo | vontrapp: you can blame anyone, but it may not be right |
| 23:42.28 | vontrapp | herlo: touche |
| 23:42.34 | sjansen | Even when you make smart decisions life is hard. |
| 23:42.36 | levi | vontrapp: Supporting legislation that forces Comcast to do what he wants is a choice, too. |
| 23:42.47 | tensai | herlo: so you're the one who spilled my milk. I knew it! |
| 23:42.53 | RedHeron | sjansen: That's why I'm in favor of making life harder for those who make it hard for me. :-) |
| 23:42.58 | vontrapp | levi: fine, but i'm not going to agree with it |
| 23:43.06 | levi | vontrapp: Well, duh. |
| 23:43.12 | sjansen | Weather isn't perfect. Crops fail. Life is hard. |
| 23:43.16 | JoshH | vontrapp, who is your ISP? |
| 23:43.22 | RedHeron | JoshH: Comcast |
| 23:43.22 | levi | Clearly there's been a lot of disagreement for the last hour or two. |
| 23:43.26 | vontrapp | COMCAST! for the thousandth time |
| 23:43.30 | RedHeron | levi: Ya think? |
| 23:43.37 | dataw0lf | levi: with absolutely no resolution or progress. |
| 23:43.40 | sjansen | So you're in favor of using government guns to force Comcast to give you free broadband? Seems fair. |
| 23:43.47 | JoshH | what if comcast allowed nothing out but 80, 443, and your only other option was to move, would you still feel the same? |
| 23:43.48 | dataw0lf | it's been at least 2 hours straight of going over the same territory. |
| 23:43.50 | RedHeron | sjansen: Free? |
| 23:43.51 | herlo | vontrapp: you can really only blame yourself |
| 23:44.00 | vontrapp | JoshH: i would probably move |
| 23:44.02 | herlo | and I can only really blame myself. I've not done enough to hange it |
| 23:44.07 | herlo | or change it even |
| 23:44.22 | herlo | tensai: sorry about that man |
| 23:44.29 | dataw0lf | I tried posting the hot Ron Paul girl... |
| 23:44.34 | sjansen | Might as well go for the whole kit and kabudle, no? |
| 23:44.38 | herlo | dataw0lf: that was cool |
| 23:44.45 | dataw0lf | I thought the Ronulans would leave mysteriously for a couple hours after that. |
| 23:44.54 | vontrapp | herlo: blame myself for what? (and yes, i probably do) |
| 23:45.01 | dataw0lf | vontrapp: COMMUNISM! |
| 23:45.13 | herlo | vontrapp: comcast being the only choice or communism works too |
| 23:45.33 | RedHeron | (j/k) |
| 23:45.48 | herlo | RedHeron: you had a point? |
| 23:45.54 | RedHeron | herlo: Yes, actually. |
| 23:45.58 | dataw0lf | noooooooooo............ HERLO! |
| 23:46.00 | dataw0lf | bad herlo! |
| 23:46.04 | herlo | lol |
| 23:46.19 | herlo | dataw0lf: sorry man, I wasn't listening to the last hour |
| 23:46.21 | levi | RedHeron's point is that he thinks Net Neutrality legislation is good. vontrapp's point is that he thinks Net Neutrality legislation is bad. |
| 23:46.23 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 23:46.23 | dataw0lf | let's get back to a serious topic |
| 23:46.25 | herlo | or watching either |
| 23:46.28 | levi | I think we've all figured that out. |
| 23:46.30 | dataw0lf | Oreos: doublestuffed or normal? |
| 23:46.34 | herlo | beandog!!! |
| 23:46.45 | beandog | herlo, yo |
| 23:46.47 | elg | dataw0lf: ginger snaps |
| 23:46.50 | herlo | beandog: pm |
| 23:46.54 | JoshH | double |
| 23:46.56 | JoshH | and only with milk |
| 23:46.59 | sjansen | Any type so long as I have milk. |
| 23:47.04 | dataw0lf | elg: ew, you obviously must SUPPORT TERRORISM |
| 23:47.07 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 23:47.09 | RedHeron | Doublestuffed, of course. With chocolate milk. "Ginger snaps" was not provided as an option, though far superior. |
| 23:47.13 | dataw0lf | I'm actually not a fan of oreos. |
| 23:47.14 | beandog | http://spaceparanoids.org/img/milk.gif |
| 23:47.20 | dataw0lf | freshly baked chocolate chip++ |
| 23:47.33 | sjansen | chocolate chip bacon and maple cookies |
| 23:47.40 | RedHeron | BACON??? |
| 23:47.42 | dataw0lf | wha-huh? |
| 23:47.42 | levi | Or we could talk about SCO. |
| 23:47.43 | vontrapp | that's not fair, we need cookie nuetrality |
| 23:48.19 | dataw0lf | leave it to a commie to misspell oppress |
| 23:48.32 | RedHeron | Commie??? |
| 23:48.42 | dataw0lf | I'm calling everyone a commie and a terrorist |
| 23:48.56 | vontrapp | dataw0lf: you ferengi |
| 23:48.59 | RedHeron | Terrorist. |
| 23:49.44 | dataw0lf | no, no, I'm the one who reports to the secret police. |
| 23:49.46 | JoshH | hey, the national threat level is elevated today, everyone be careful and keep your eyes open for suspicious activity |
| 23:49.47 | RedHeron | Hey, no calling the DHS, sjansen! |
| 23:50.10 | sjansen | DHL is a time-traveling front for the DHS. Expect a package soon, comrade. |
| 23:50.11 | dataw0lf | I forgot about the national threat level |
| 23:50.13 | dataw0lf | dang it |
| 23:50.17 | RedHeron | JoshH: That's because we're expecting suicide bombers pretending to be pregnant so they can smuggle explosives. |
| 23:50.27 | JoshH | and high for all flights, whoa |
| 23:50.30 | dataw0lf | Me and my ability to forget to be scared. Thankfully, I have a government to remind me. |
| 23:50.57 | RedHeron | JoshH: There's a buildup in the Middle East much like there was in 2001. |
| 23:51.01 | sjansen | Better safe than sorry, no? |
| 23:51.34 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you realize the objective of terrorists is to make you afraid, right? |
| 23:51.53 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I don't have the option of being afraid. Just angry. |
| 23:52.42 | vontrapp | so your anger is your fear |
| 23:52.55 | JoshH | fear leads to anger |
| 23:53.12 | vontrapp | anger leads to the dark side |
| 23:53.16 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They're the same mechanism in the brain, but I don't feel the "flight" part of the response. |
| 23:53.19 | levi | Fear is the mind-killer. |
| 23:53.40 | vontrapp | RedHeron: maybe that's why you won't move |
| 23:53.49 | vontrapp | sorry, that was below the belt |
| 23:53.59 | sjansen | Fear and anger lead to the Patriot Act. (Double speak if ever there were.) |
| 23:54.11 | RedHeron | sjansen: Well said, sir! |
| 23:54.13 | vontrapp | therefore, patriot act == dark side |
| 23:54.38 | JoshH | thankfully we have the Protect America Act to fix that |
| 23:54.42 | RedHeron | And that's why the PATRIOT Act is #1 on Obama's "to remove" list, so that we can restore Habeas Corpus. |
| 23:54.57 | RedHeron | JoshH: Provided it gets passed. |
| 23:55.05 | RedHeron | Wait... |
| 23:55.12 | levi | Oh no, we're talking about politics again! |
| 23:55.24 | RedHeron | My bad. |
| 23:55.25 | JoshH | oh, and it's such a relief knowing that we are closer to getting those dreaded alcopops moved somewhere safe from cheerleaders |
| 23:55.25 | vontrapp | at least we're agreeing |
| 23:55.43 | dataw0lf | see how Obama unites? |
| 23:55.44 | dataw0lf | :D |
| 23:55.54 | RedHeron | dataw0lf: Heh. |
| 23:56.22 | RedHeron | Crap. I have to get to work. I'm actually late. |
| 23:57.06 | dataw0lf | try explaining that to your boss: "I made a nearly unintelligible argument for several hours without getting anywhere........ on the Internet. That's why I'm late." |
| 23:58.09 | RedHeron | My boss would actually understand that, FWIW. |
| 23:58.36 | dataw0lf | I bet he would. I bet he would. |
| 23:59.10 | dataw0lf | this little thinkgeek fridge/heater is pretty nifty |
