| 00:03.02 | rsimpkins | Man, doesn't anyone do free shipping any more? |
| 00:03.10 | rsimpkins | My mouse just went south. |
| 00:03.18 | rsimpkins | And, somehow, I don't have any more. |
| 00:05.49 | sontek | newegg does free shipping I thought |
| 00:05.53 | sontek | or at least cheap shipping |
| 00:05.56 | Supaplex | sometimes they do |
| 00:06.18 | Supaplex | frys.com does a lot |
| 00:06.19 | sontek | but mice are just easier to pick up at bestbuy or something |
| 00:07.13 | Supaplex | the office stores have sales on them every so often. the new ads are online today too. |
| 00:07.17 | Tene | but sontek, you have to LEAVE THE HOUSE for the! |
| 00:19.33 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 00:30.13 | *** join/#utah RedHeron (n=RedHeron@c-98-202-56-80.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:33.56 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 01:30.25 | Lakshmi | hey ya'lls |
| 01:50.14 | maquis | rsimpkins: amazon does free shipping if you pay 25$ or more |
| 01:50.31 | maquis | Lakshmi: hello |
| 01:50.42 | Lakshmi | maquis sup? |
| 01:50.57 | maquis | not much |
| 01:51.12 | maquis | playing with my olpc and trying to get evilwm to work with it |
| 01:51.46 | findlay | hello |
| 01:52.11 | findlay | maquis: sugar not good enoug for you? |
| 01:52.41 | findlay | try aspartame or fructose? Or rat poision? :) |
| 01:53.45 | maquis | findlay: sugar's nice for some things, but i want the option of something a bit more lightweight sometimes, too |
| 01:53.59 | findlay | lightweight? |
| 01:54.15 | findlay | it's not lightweight already? The GUI that's supposed to travel the world? |
| 01:54.39 | findlay | maquis: I've got an epc |
| 01:55.34 | maquis | findlay: it's not as light as evil |
| 01:55.54 | findlay | maquis: I'm not surprised |
| 01:56.07 | maquis | :) |
| 01:56.29 | findlay | ~2000 loc on top of X, probably :) |
| 01:56.58 | findlay | I know, why don't I try to write a WM as a perl one-liner |
| 01:57.03 | findlay | that would be fun |
| 01:57.13 | Lakshmi | im trying to revive a partner |
| 01:57.14 | Lakshmi | :( |
| 01:57.25 | findlay | a parser? |
| 01:57.44 | findlay | having lexical problems? |
| 02:31.08 | *** join/#utah tristanbob__ (n=tristanb@c-98-202-37-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:59.08 | sjansen | Lakshmi: revive a partner? |
| 02:59.12 | sontek | http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/10/2011257 |
| 02:59.25 | Lakshmi | sjansen my partner flaked on me basically. |
| 02:59.41 | Lakshmi | and i emailed the teacher and they kept insisting that this had to be done with a partner |
| 02:59.42 | Lakshmi | so yeah |
| 02:59.44 | sjansen | so we're not talking cpr |
| 03:00.15 | sjansen | I hate partner projects in school. |
| 03:00.27 | Lakshmi | me too |
| 03:00.31 | Lakshmi | like with a passion |
| 03:00.44 | sjansen | It's supposed to prepare you for the real world or something. Well, in the real world people get fired for being flakey. |
| 03:00.44 | Lakshmi | i always end up doing all the work... |
| 03:00.59 | Lakshmi | sjansen tell that to my partner |
| 03:01.05 | Lakshmi | he's been MIA for a week |
| 03:01.07 | sjansen | And if they don't, I move on to a company with competent co-workers. Nothing like school. |
| 03:01.50 | sjansen | Assigned or chosen partners? |
| 03:02.31 | sjansen | Have you considered asking the professor if he'd prefer helping you find a new partner, or being lied to about your partners (non)involvement? |
| 03:18.24 | tensai | ~lart nat |
| 03:18.24 | ibot | puts nat into a headlock and administers a mighty noogie, rubbing half of nat's hair of |
| 03:31.10 | maquis | so, tonight, i hacked evilwm to remove a feature... |
| 03:31.21 | maquis | that kind-of scares me |
| 03:31.54 | Supaplex | chmod 0 evilwm can do that. ;) |
| 03:48.24 | levi | Yo. |
| 03:48.30 | levi | I have returned home. |
| 03:50.51 | tensai | ontario wasn't cool enough for you? |
| 03:51.18 | levi | Well, I thought it would be nice to sleep in my own bed for a change. |
| 03:51.38 | levi | And I take it back... I think there were definitely cheaper motels in town than the Rodeway Inn. |
| 03:52.12 | levi | My baby son is smiling and cooing at me. :) |
| 03:53.07 | levi | The room included free breakfast at the adjoining JB's Big Boy, too. |
| 03:55.04 | levi | Interesting counterpoint to the Lodges at Deer Valley, where I spent the first half of the week. :) |
| 03:56.13 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 03:58.36 | levi | Hi, elg. |
| 04:00.07 | Supaplex | ~hug elg |
| 04:00.08 | ibot | ACTION hugs elg |
| 04:01.17 | levi | maquis: What feature did you remove? |
| 04:02.02 | elg | anyone know if you can network boot or usb boot an iBook? |
| 04:02.28 | Supaplex | usb, no. firewire, yes. network, idk |
| 04:02.45 | Supaplex | well, I've had 'craptacular' success with usb. |
| 04:02.50 | Supaplex | so, maybe... |
| 04:03.29 | Supaplex | last time I tried, it seemed that yaboot was loading, but it fell on its face before it got anywhere. |
| 04:04.24 | elg | my old ibook my dad is borrowing. it's behaving poorly - just shuts off, often wouldn't boot, now doesn't boot at all |
| 04:04.32 | elg | i'm going to have him reset the pmu |
| 04:04.54 | elg | but if that doesn't work, I want to rule out the OS before declaring it a hw problem, and booting something else seems like a good way |
| 04:05.06 | elg | but the cdrom drive is wonked (broken spring) |
| 04:05.30 | Supaplex | have you hard of target disk mode? |
| 04:05.35 | elg | no |
| 04:05.44 | Supaplex | you can turn a mac into a firewire drive with "t" on boot |
| 04:06.39 | Supaplex | my dvd drive is a little sketchy on installs, so I booted off another mac and installed it that way. |
| 04:09.42 | levi | Target disk mode is awesome. |
| 04:10.51 | Supaplex | yup :) |
| 04:31.48 | Lakshmi | Supaplex hey |
| 04:34.19 | elg | cool, thanks for the help |
| 04:35.51 | Supaplex | hi Lakshmi |
| 04:35.58 | Lakshmi | Supaplex sup? |
| 04:36.13 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@208.53.38.7) |
| 04:36.13 | ibot | dances the tango with fozzmoo |
| 04:37.14 | tristanbob__ | anyone use google apps? how can I get "mydomain.com" to point to the same thing as "www.mydomain.com" |
| 04:38.30 | tristanbob__ | it appears that I need to use a real IP address with an A record, not a DNS name like ghs.google.com |
| 04:40.05 | Supaplex | Lakshmi: just poking around the web. nothing much |
| 04:40.14 | fozzmoo | I just got back from Southern Utah. |
| 04:40.53 | Lakshmi | fozzmoo why were you there? |
| 04:41.01 | Lakshmi | Supaplex thats cool, wanna write an essay? |
| 04:41.14 | Supaplex | huh? |
| 04:41.40 | fozzmoo | Oh- went down to St. George to hang with my parents for a couple days. |
| 04:43.41 | levi | fozzmoo: I just got back from Oregon. |
| 04:43.52 | fozzmoo | levi: How was Oregon? |
| 04:46.30 | Tene | fozzmoo: I'm near St George right now. |
| 04:46.39 | fozzmoo | Tene: Yat? |
| 04:46.50 | Tene | fozzmoo: Cedar City. I'm visiting 'chelle for a few days. |
| 04:46.53 | fozzmoo | Cool! |
| 04:48.09 | levi | fozzmoo: It was still there when I arrived, which was comforting. I would have a harder time getting to Washington if it ceased to exist. |
| 04:48.15 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 04:49.23 | Supaplex | Lakshmi: are you still in agony over this school work? |
| 04:49.33 | Lakshmi | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:01.11 | Tene | Yay, /home is full on my laptop! |
| 05:02.53 | sjansen | tristanbob__: Can you get away with using a CNAME? |
| 05:03.18 | tristanbob__ | sjansen, you mean in the a record? I don't think it allows that |
| 05:03.59 | sjansen | CNAMEs make it possible to return a DNS name in response to an A record request. |
| 05:04.08 | tristanbob__ | nope - godaddy REQUIRES an IP |
| 05:05.09 | sjansen | You're using Go Daddy as your DNS provider, not just your registrar? |
| 05:05.49 | tristanbob__ | sjansen, DNS adn registrar, although I could change DNS if I needed to, of course |
| 05:05.57 | tristanbob__ | sjansen, just stumbed on the solution! |
| 05:06.02 | tristanbob__ | http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?answer=61057&topic=9204 |
| 05:06.42 | sjansen | Ick. |
| 05:07.14 | sjansen | BTW, I use ZoneEdit for my DNS. Free and reliable. |
| 05:10.23 | JoshH | tristanbob__, that's because it would cause the "CNAME and other data" error, you couldn't do that no matter where your DNS was handled |
| 05:10.41 | JoshH | you could have www.yourdomain.com be a CNAME, but not just yourdomain.com |
| 05:11.06 | tristanbob__ | sjansen, I had used zonedit for 5 years, but now I don't need it |
| 05:11.29 | tristanbob__ | JoshH, yeah, that is what godaddy is telling me - luckily I found a solution with redirects |
| 05:11.59 | JoshH | google should just promise never to change the IP :) |
| 05:22.27 | Sargun | BrainDump from anyone who is Mormon, please: Alternate Prom |
| 05:23.32 | elg | alternate prom? what you don't like your default prom? |
| 05:26.33 | levi | Hmm, no more Polaroids. |
| 05:30.30 | fozzmoo | Is Alternaprom a Mormon thing? |
| 05:30.47 | sjansen | Never heard of such a thing. |
| 05:31.30 | fozzmoo | I thought it was just a loser thing. |
| 05:33.16 | Sargun | fozzmoo, yeah |
| 05:33.20 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Really? |
| 05:33.54 | levi | Sargun: You talking about a dance held on prom night in a church building or something? |
| 05:34.24 | fozzmoo | I don't know much, but I thought this was a dance held at someone's house where goths, metalheads, etc. could go and listen to RealMusic that those stupid idiots on the prom planning community would deem unfit. |
| 05:34.30 | Sargun | levi, possibly. |
| 05:34.39 | Sargun | When going to a high school prom became more of a concern than a much-anticipated milestone, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints decided to provide their youth with a prom alternative. |
| 05:34.44 | Sargun | ?The reason our stake started to host prom two years ago was to give our young people a chance to practice dating and social skills and to give them a place to go when they felt uncomfortable with the high school?s music, dress styles and behavior,? said Melissa Ryther, Thousand Oaks youth leader. A stake is an organized area of the LDS church determined by geographical boundaries. |
| 05:34.48 | Sargun | As a result, some 300 16- to 18-year-olds from Simi Valley, Thousand Oaks, Moorpark, Newbury Park, Oxnard and Camarillo attended a prom April 7 at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, where the young women wore modest dresses, the music was wholesome, the dancing was decent and the price tag was reasonable. |
| 05:35.07 | sjansen | http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/loldog-tornado-dog-says-brgrggrgrbbgr.jpg |
| 05:35.16 | fozzmoo | Fascinating. Things in California HAVE gotten bad. |
| 05:35.33 | Sargun | fozzmoo, I know. |
| 05:35.47 | Sargun | Darn Utahnians, spreading your poison! |
| 05:35.56 | levi | fozzmoo: Probably ended up looking a lot like the BYU Homecoming dances, except with kids a couple years younger. :) |
| 05:36.00 | Sargun | "dress styles" |
| 05:36.37 | sjansen | dress guidelines? |
| 05:37.17 | fozzmoo | You know... dresses that don't say, "I'm ready for you now, baby." |
| 05:37.19 | Sargun | What's wrong with Prom's dress styles? |
| 05:37.27 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Uh, prom dresses don't say that |
| 05:37.36 | sontek | Sargun: they show backs! |
| 05:37.50 | fozzmoo | Dresses that, instead say, "I wanted to look beautiful tonight, but not like a whore." |
| 05:37.58 | Sargun | They say, "I'm really expensive, uncomfortable, and probably ugly, but I cost 30 times more than I should" |
| 05:38.03 | sontek | fozzmoo: its prom night, the dress doesn't have to say it, if you are at prom its common courtesy! ;) |
| 05:38.05 | levi | Sargun: Depends on the prom dress. Mormon women typically don't wear dresses that don't have backs or have no sleeves. |
| 05:38.12 | fozzmoo | ~thwack sontek |
| 05:38.12 | ibot | ACTION smacks sontek on the groin with a UNIX Manual |
| 05:38.16 | sontek | :[ |
| 05:38.22 | fozzmoo | Niiice ibot |
| 05:38.24 | fozzmoo | ~botsnack |
| 05:38.24 | ibot | fozzmoo: thanks |
| 05:38.36 | findlay | Sargun: you have 1000 oak trees out there?! |
| 05:38.38 | levi | Or slits that go way up the side, etc. |
| 05:38.39 | Sargun | levi, Uh, Can I ask what's wrong with an open back, and no sleeves? |
| 05:38.39 | findlay | that's a lot |
| 05:38.47 | findlay | I've seen an oak tree before |
| 05:38.48 | findlay | I think |
| 05:39.00 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Ask findlay these questions. He's the woman expert among us. |
| 05:39.11 | findlay | oooh, truly |
| 05:39.16 | findlay | an exprecimert |
| 05:39.33 | Sargun | Well, this is a more a religion question |
| 05:40.01 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Let me put it this way... |
| 05:40.07 | levi | Sargun: Well, basically that they're against the Mormon female dress code. Though a man would also not be able to wear a top like that, if such a thing were in style. |
| 05:41.09 | fozzmoo | when Mormons marry in a temple, they are required to start wearing special undergarments under their clothes. Part of the deal is that they are not supposed to wear clothes on top of these undergarments that show the undergarments. |
| 05:41.32 | fozzmoo | So, it becomes a standard dress code in Mormon cultures to wear shorts that are at least knee length... |
| 05:41.43 | fozzmoo | and you almost never see a temple-married woman without sleeves. |
| 05:41.55 | findlay | I still don't see how this has anything to do with oak trees |
| 05:41.57 | fozzmoo | Same goes for the low cut front of tops and backs. |
| 05:42.05 | fozzmoo | And no bare tummies. |
| 05:42.34 | fozzmoo | While high schoolers aren't temple married and therefore aren't recommended to wear these undergarments, |
| 05:42.50 | findlay | I think Sargun is confused. Besides, you don't use oak in violin m |
| 05:42.54 | fozzmoo | there is pressure within Mormon societies to dress "modestly." |
| 05:42.59 | findlay | aking |
| 05:43.08 | fozzmoo | Sargun: does that help at all? |
| 05:43.33 | findlay | Tourte made bows back in Stradivarius' time |
| 05:43.55 | fozzmoo | I kinda wonder if this alternative prom was more for the LDS girls so they didn't envy those girls who's parents let them wear much more revealing prom dresses. :) |
| 05:44.01 | findlay | and he made his bows from Brazillian pernambuco wood |
| 05:44.13 | sontek | I think it should be the other way around! the younger ones shouldn't be showing off their bellies or shoulders or giving off the "i'm ready for ya" vibe |
| 05:44.15 | fozzmoo | When everyone else is wearing a pioneer dress to prom, you don't feel so bad. :) |
| 05:44.28 | findlay | from slats of coffee crates coming to Italy from Brazil |
| 05:45.00 | findlay | amazing that a 450 year old $100,000+ curved stick could come from such mean origins |
| 05:45.33 | levi | sontek: The older ones shouldn't be wearing them either, because their bodies just don't look as good as young ones. :P |
| 05:45.58 | findlay | whatever |
| 05:46.03 | sontek | levi: haha, I think 18-26 should be required to show at least belly button and minor cleavage! |
| 05:46.09 | sontek | ;) |
| 05:46.31 | fozzmoo | I see plenty of "minor cleavage" at church on Sundays from that age group... not so much bellybutton. |
| 05:46.36 | findlay | bodies are just a bunch of carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins |
| 05:46.42 | fozzmoo | Man. I know that's going to come back to bite me. |
| 05:46.43 | findlay | who cares what they look like |
| 05:47.05 | levi | findlay: I do, and so do you. :) |
| 05:47.17 | findlay | in other words, 'that's outside my thought domain, so I don't care' |
| 05:47.17 | Lakshmi | Sargun my prom dress was pretty :) |
| 05:47.18 | levi | At some level, at least. |
| 05:47.28 | sjansen | findlay: Perhaps, but those carbs, fats and proteins can form neurons and receptors. |
| 05:47.34 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 05:48.29 | levi | findlay: You can *say* you don't care all you want, but you're a human being, and that's just part of our nature. :) |
| 05:48.38 | sontek | fozzmoo: you've got me sold, see ya Sunday? |
| 05:49.02 | findlay | levi: all ad hominem arguments against my suffocating provinciality apply :-) |
| 05:49.16 | fozzmoo | sontek: That's what I keep telling herlo! |
| 05:49.51 | fozzmoo | So, if you boot off a diskboot.img dd'd to a USB drive... |
| 05:49.57 | sontek | fozzmoo: we met with missionaries today but they were jerks |
| 05:50.03 | sontek | well, yesterday, not today |
| 05:50.03 | fozzmoo | and do a network install of CentOS5... |
| 05:50.07 | findlay | ~jerk |
| 05:50.08 | ibot | hmm... jerk is the derivative of acceleration with respect to time |
| 05:50.25 | levi | sontek: How were they jerks? |
| 05:50.48 | fozzmoo | be very careful of the drive order in the grub config screen. |
| 05:50.54 | fozzmoo | It will assume your USB drive is the boot drive. |
| 05:50.56 | fozzmoo | Not cool. |
| 05:51.19 | fozzmoo | sontek: Sorry they were jerks. |
| 05:51.30 | fozzmoo | Was this before or after you offered them the 6-pack of Coronas? |
| 05:51.36 | sontek | fozzmoo: we were talking about everything and we asked if we could sit in on a Sunday session and they were like "Sure!" and then started talking about baptisms and i'm like "I'm not looking to convert... just looking to learn more about the religion" and then they were like "We are hear to baptises people, if you are looking for more information on the religion I suggest you read the book" |
| 05:51.38 | Supaplex | pffft |
| 05:51.59 | sjansen | fozzmoo: You could have just kept things simple. Without mystery there is no anticipation. Without prohibition there is no excitement. Society is gradually replacing the sublime with the mechanical. |
| 05:52.19 | findlay | heh |
| 05:52.20 | levi | sontek: That's pretty lame. |
| 05:52.26 | fozzmoo | Ahhh, yes, we Mormons are all about... teasing people. |
| 05:53.07 | levi | I always felt very annoyed at the way the 'discussions' attempted to commit people to baptism on the 2nd one. |
| 05:54.07 | sontek | yeah, I thought it was pretty rude to try to schedule me for a baptism before I had even sat in a session, or that they didn't even want to talk to me anymore once I said I didn't want the baptism |
| 05:54.20 | sontek | theres nothing to say I wouldn't want it later, but I'm not going to dive right in |
| 05:54.31 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (n=bmidgley@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:54.36 | levi | sontek: If you want to drop in on a sunday session to see what it's like, you'll be welcome pretty much anywhere. |
| 05:54.43 | *** part/#utah Lakshmi (n=shnocksh@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 05:54.51 | herlo | fozzmoo: not gonna happen, but can't hurt to try... |
| 05:55.01 | fozzmoo | herlo: minor cleavage. :) |
| 05:55.26 | herlo | fozzmoo: nice |
| 05:55.31 | sontek | herlo: minor cleavage and full wards of single hotties! |
| 05:55.32 | fozzmoo | herlo: And if you get into a singles ward, when you're sick, the relief society sisters will bring you food and tend to you. |
| 05:55.37 | levi | The peril of sending 19-year-old kids out to do missionary work is that 19-year-olds don't always have their heads fully screwed on. :P |
| 05:55.44 | sjansen | sontek: You have to understand where they're coming from too. |
| 05:55.45 | herlo | fozzmoo: yes, Iknow, thanks |
| 05:55.51 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=shnocksh@75-25-129-78.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:56.06 | herlo | fozzmoo: btw, the CENTOS thing, just after you get to stage2, pull the usb... |
| 05:56.23 | findlay | and give it to me |
| 05:56.29 | sontek | sjansen: I tried to understand, but to me it seemed like they were more about putting another tally on their conversion scoreboard rather than actually informing... |
| 05:56.31 | fozzmoo | I just moved /dev/sde to the bottom of the drive list |
| 05:56.40 | fozzmoo | in the grub advanced options. |
| 05:56.55 | sjansen | They young, and have limited experience. There are many nice people willing to invite them in to talk without ever making commitments, but they're called to find people who are already ready, not to be ambassadors to the world. |
| 05:57.06 | fozzmoo | herlo: Remind me... stage2 begins after I give it the install server path? |
| 05:57.22 | herlo | right |
| 05:57.31 | fozzmoo | k. thanks. One more to (re)do. |
| 05:57.32 | sjansen | Normal members are responsible for being ambassadors and holding long term conversations with the curious. |
| 05:57.45 | herlo | fozzmoo: btw, in F9, stage1 ends before the install path |
| 05:57.50 | sontek | sjansen: It made me feel kind of like a 16yr old girl who turned down sex to her boyfriend, and then he dumped me! :P |
| 05:58.02 | sontek | sjansen: I wanted to continue the relationship, just didn't want to make that next step ;) |
| 05:58.04 | levi | sontek: There may be an issue here in Utah where they cover a whole bunch of wards, and have too many places to be on Sundays to accompany casually interested folks. |
| 05:58.38 | sjansen | *shrug* That's the whole point. They're there to find people who are ready to take the next step. |
| 05:58.54 | fozzmoo | btw: I hate getting into the back of a server cabinet to plug in a USB cable and a monitor cable and have a 40MPH wind blowing in my eyes (and my contacts). It's like I need goggles. |
| 05:58.55 | sontek | sjansen: how do those people get to that point? |
| 05:59.07 | sontek | sjansen: if the missionaries aren't willing to give you the information |
| 05:59.17 | fozzmoo | herlo: Thanks for the tip on F9. |
| 05:59.35 | sjansen | There are theological reasons for the behavior of missionaries, but most boil down too: Few are spiritually mature enough to do anything more than guide people who have already been prepared through the conversion process. |
| 05:59.39 | herlo | np |
| 06:00.32 | levi | I had a hard enough time finding anyone remotely interested, so in my missionary days, I certainly wouldn't have behaved that way. |
| 06:01.01 | sontek | sjansen: then how do I get in contact with someone who is willing to talk about the religion and give me information without actually pushing the baptism on me? |
| 06:01.35 | fozzmoo | So, every Sunday, I feel all awkward- like I'm the only guy in the building who DIDN'T go on a mission and you're telling me it was just being a dork for 2 years? |
| 06:02.01 | fozzmoo | Cuz I was plenty of a dork at home. |
| 06:02.04 | sontek | I'd be an awesome missionary, I'm a pretty big dork. |
| 06:02.14 | sjansen | sontek: Depends on the person. Ideally, the missionaries should be able to refer you to a ward missionaries or other members who live in the area. Unfortunately, that only happens in ideal situations. |
| 06:02.40 | levi | fozzmoo: Well, hopefully you spend as much time as possible not being a dork, but the rate of dorkiness in 19-year-olds runs pretty high on average. |
| 06:03.24 | levi | sontek: There are probably some neighbors that'd love to discuss it with you. |
| 06:04.30 | sontek | Well the neighbors to each side are both catholic, but I'm sure the majority of the neighborhood is probably lds, but I haven't met any of the others |
| 06:04.35 | sontek | I spend most of my time on IRC ;) |
| 06:05.02 | sjansen | sontek: LDS doctrine does not consider conversion to be a merely intellectual process. One must feel inspiration (generally referred to as "the Spirit") to perform certain acts. The first step being a desire to learn and willingness to take responsibility for one's own learning process. |
| 06:05.13 | levi | There's a meetinghouse finder on lds.org, I believe, that could tell you when your neighbors meet for church. |
| 06:07.17 | sjansen | The missionaries are merely guides along one path of that process. They are trained to present a standard set of challenges to help a person determine if they feel the inspiration that leads to conversion and if they are willing to change their life as a result. |
| 06:07.17 | sontek | sjansen: well, my desire to learn got shot down by the missionaries :P |
| 06:07.39 | sontek | fozzmoo: I can take the heat! |
| 06:07.40 | sontek | ;) |
| 06:08.41 | sjansen | But the path the missionaries are trained to present is only one of many. It is just a possible, and probably more desirable, for the person to follow their own self guided path with the help of local members of the church instead of missionaries who will leave in a couple of months. |
| 06:09.31 | levi | sjansen: Speaking of the way missionaries are trained, I understand it's fairly different now. No standard discussions anymore, no Missionary Guide, etc. |
| 06:09.34 | sontek | sjansen: yeah, I just expected them to be able to point me in a better direction than 'the book has all the answers!' |
| 06:10.01 | sontek | sjansen: I'm not originally from Utah and I have no knowledge of the religion |
| 06:10.28 | sontek | sjansen: although I'm a believer of RTFM, I was hoping for a little help ;) |
| 06:11.19 | levi | sontek: The missionaries try to get you to read the Book of Mormon not because it will give you a good idea of what the church experience will be like, but because it's an artifact upon which the validity of the church's claims hang. |
| 06:11.44 | Sargun | findlay, fozzmoo, Hm, do you really think clothing would contribute to negative behaviour that much? |
| 06:11.50 | sontek | levi: but i'm already reading it and they knew that because they gave me one on their first stop |
| 06:12.02 | sjansen | Getting 30,000+ young men 19-20 years old to shave, put on a tie, and talk to people about religion all day long is an accomplishment. Most of their times consists of talking to people that don't want to listen, or talking to people that hope the missionaries will magically solve their problems without having to make any personal effort. |
| 06:12.19 | sjansen | Their treatment of you is unfortunate, but understandable. |
| 06:12.36 | levi | sontek: On their first stop, did they talk to you about Joseph Smith and how he translated the Book of Mormon? |
| 06:13.43 | sontek | levi: their first stop they gave me a pamphlet that was like the readers digest version of the book and discussed that with me, but I was heading out so I got a complete book from them and had them come back yesterday |
| 06:14.28 | sontek | levi: they didn't discuss the translations with me yesterday though |
| 06:14.33 | levi | Sargun: I don't think it's so much that clothing *contributes* to negative behavior. I don't really think clothing is the major issue. |
| 06:14.56 | sjansen | Re: Ties. I was going to say, convince young men to serve missions instead of chasing girls is accomplishment in itself. The ideal is that they all behave in a mature and sensitive manner, but the reality is it's more of a process as they grow personally and discover their own level of conviction. |
| 06:15.07 | Sargun | sjansen, Uh, the first two aren't that difficult, the third is. |
| 06:15.24 | levi | Sargun: There's a perception (which may or may not be true of any particular prom) that there's going to be a lot of people drinking and having sex before or after. |
| 06:16.03 | Sargun | levi, Uhh, That's a choice that's going to be made by the individual unit whether or not they are going to alternate prom, or "real" prom. |
| 06:16.16 | RyanE | Sargun: also, more modest clothing tends to rein in the raging hormones from the young men there. |
| 06:16.24 | levi | Sargun: So, I think the primary reason to provide an alternative is to separate from the crowd that may be planning those things. |
| 06:16.41 | fozzmoo | The alternaprom is probably organized by well-meaning parents. |
| 06:16.48 | Sargun | levi, That's a good point, but I don't think controlling young people is that simple. |
| 06:17.04 | Sargun | It would be better to hire a bunch of professionals to monitor the prom, and the kids afterwards |
| 06:17.16 | fozzmoo | professionals? |
| 06:17.26 | RyanE | Sargun: possibly, but this is likely more practical. |
| 06:17.32 | Sargun | for example, every house that goes to that school is probably in a 30 miles radius, you would have to search that space in like 3-4 hours. |
| 06:17.34 | RyanE | and we're nothing if not *practical*. |
| 06:17.36 | sontek | I think the better way to sove this issue would be for the parents to let their children know what time to be home and the behavior they expect |
| 06:17.38 | Sargun | and if a party shows up |
| 06:17.44 | Sargun | then crack down on it. |
| 06:17.45 | levi | Sargun: The kids going to the alternate prom have also been raised very conservatively, and so they'll feel more comfortable with the more conservative dress and music. |
| 06:18.03 | sontek | I know if my friends and my parents said "You will be home by 11..." my prom would've been a lot different |
| 06:18.19 | sontek | but since my mom was irresponsible, I was =) |
| 06:18.20 | Sargun | levi, Hm, I guess that is a good point. I hope their music isn't as terrible as real prom. |
| 06:18.24 | Sargun | sontek, heh. |
| 06:18.56 | RyanE | nothing but the '80's best. :) |
| 06:19.00 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 06:20.07 | levi | I heard some pretty awful music at LDS-sponsored dances, both in form and content. I was not very easily offended, though, so I just suffered through it until the general taste of the young crowd drifted too far from mine for them to be at all tolerable. |
| 06:20.27 | Sargun | I guess I personally don't really see the issues surrounding prom because I personally have seen that's a decision that an individual unit will make. |
| 06:20.51 | Sargun | If the unit has already made the decision then we cannot control them. Control is useless. |
| 06:20.56 | RyanE | certainly, but it's easier for a kid to do what he's been taught is right if he's not put in the environment. |
| 06:20.59 | sontek | yeah, providing an alternate prom isn't going to replace a parents job to raise responsible children :P |
| 06:21.04 | levi | Sargun: Are you referring to kids as 'units' or what? |
| 06:21.05 | RyanE | certainly not. |
| 06:21.06 | sjansen | I can enjoy most times of music. Even some Evangelical music. But LDS music drives me up a wall. |
| 06:21.36 | levi | sjansen: Um, they don't play LDS music at LDS-sponsored dances. No one would come if they did. |
| 06:21.42 | RyanE | oh, I can't stand LDS music, either. It annoys my wife when I prefer to just turn it all off. |
| 06:21.49 | Sargun | levi, Uh, people from 16-18, or groups which will follow the same path. |
| 06:21.52 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 06:22.13 | fozzmoo | sjansen: I assume you're referring to LDS "contemporary" music. |
| 06:22.18 | Sargun | A unit consists of one or more people who will participate similarly in society. |
| 06:22.21 | sjansen | yes |
| 06:22.35 | levi | Sargun: No one is forcing these kids to go to 'alternate prom', except possibly their parents. I imagine most of the kids who participate do so because they WANT to. |
| 06:22.50 | sjansen | I have no problem with the MoTab or well sung hymns. But syrupy sweet slop is disgusting. |
| 06:23.04 | Sargun | levi, Well, I mean at standard prom also, people attempt to hire cops, hand out fliers, etc. |
| 06:23.16 | Sargun | or say abstinence is the only policy. |
| 06:23.22 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 06:23.23 | levi | sjansen: I listened to some LDS folksy-sort of music on my mission that wasn't too bad. |
| 06:23.38 | fozzmoo | So, prom becomes a political rally. |
| 06:23.52 | Sargun | If a unit is going to do something dumb, might as well help them do it with some intelligence. [It is supposed to be oxymoronic] |
| 06:23.53 | fozzmoo | "Don't do it! Think of your FUTURE!" |
| 06:23.55 | levi | sjansen: Of course, I haven't listened to it since I got home. :) |
| 06:24.39 | RyanE | on my mission, the president said nothing but classical or motab. |
| 06:24.40 | levi | Sargun: Are you arguing against organizing an alternate prom, or did you go off on a tangent? |
| 06:24.59 | fozzmoo | levi: I think he's just worried about going to one. :) |
| 06:25.24 | Sargun | levi, I'm saying that don't try to crack down on standard prom's activities with a waving your hand, and saying "no" policy |
| 06:26.09 | fozzmoo | "These are not the droids you're looking for, Sargun." |
| 06:26.27 | levi | Sargun: Okay, so you went off on a tangent. The alternate prom people clearly aren't trying to make anyone alter their standard prom activities. |
| 06:26.57 | levi | They just provide an alternative for those people who want to do things differently. |
| 06:27.02 | RyanE | and no one disagrees that raising the kids is the parents' responsibility, and at some point, the kids are going to have to make their own choices without the parents around. |
| 06:27.02 | Sargun | levi, Well, at standard prom also. |
| 06:27.23 | Sargun | RyanE, Uh, the parents are only responsible until 18, and when the insurance is being paid by them |
| 06:27.28 | levi | Sargun: What? |
| 06:27.36 | RyanE | heh. Yeah, not. |
| 06:28.09 | levi | Okay, this conversation has devolved into a bunch of people talking past one another. Does anyone still have a coherent point they're trying to make? |
| 06:28.22 | Sargun | RyanE, A 19 year old living outside of the house paying their own insurance isn't the responsibility of its parents |
| 06:28.42 | RyanE | no, but my point is that it's a sliding scale. |
| 06:28.44 | RyanE | not just a cliff. |
| 06:29.12 | RyanE | and levi, yeah.. that first part. (no point). :) |
| 06:29.21 | levi | RyanE: This is a touchy point for Sargun, as he is currently asserting his independence from his parents. :P |
| 06:29.28 | Sargun | levi, Heh. |
| 06:29.56 | RyanE | but he certainly should've shown some responsibility *before* now... :) |
| 06:31.11 | Supaplex | Sargun? responsible? ;) |
| 06:31.23 | Sargun | RyanE, If your kid is under 18, track them better than the US intelligence [I know that's impossible because consumer-grade AGPS has to have 3-meters of inaccuracy, and it becomes a weapon once it can work at over 5000 feet of altitude accurately at above 300 MPH], but once they are 18 you no longer are responsible for tracking them and are taking on a liability. |
| 06:31.23 | fozzmoo | The intelligence is there. |
| 06:31.37 | fozzmoo | The question is: Can he apply it to responsible behavior. |
| 06:31.46 | fozzmoo | s/behavior./behavior?/ |
| 06:31.57 | RyanE | I think parents have to give them opportunities for responsibility with smaller things before dropping them off the cliff. |
| 06:32.01 | levi | It takes a lot of gall for a kid of 18, who has been fed, clothed, and sheltered by parents with very little work required in compensation, to suddenly believe he's free from obligation to parents. Yet teenagers seem to be pretty much all wired to think that way. :) |
| 06:32.07 | fozzmoo | We'll find out, when we come back, on Cold Case Files on A&E |
| 06:32.17 | sjansen | Sargun: I don't think RyanE is talking about moral responsiblity, not legal responsiblity. |
| 06:32.24 | RyanE | yep |
| 06:32.26 | sjansen | s/don't// |
| 06:32.27 | Sargun | sjansen, That's a different point. |
| 06:32.41 | Sargun | Testtting |
| 06:32.45 | Sargun | s/t+/t/ |
| 06:32.54 | Sargun | ibot doesn't have regex. |
| 06:33.01 | levi | Especially when said kids have been totally spoiled like Sargun. ;) |
| 06:33.22 | Sargun | Heh, I am not that large of a legal liability. |
| 06:33.23 | fozzmoo | ~spoil Sargun |
| 06:33.47 | RyanE | well, yeah, now that you're 18+... |
| 06:33.52 | Sargun | RyanE, 17. |
| 06:33.58 | fozzmoo | Wow. He's all of 17 now. |
| 06:34.05 | RyanE | ok, so you're point is... ??? |
| 06:34.11 | Sargun | Just saying.. |
| 06:34.13 | fozzmoo | Sargun: I thought you were 16. I guess those days just don't last. |
| 06:34.19 | Sargun | fozzmoo, heh. |
| 06:35.02 | levi | It would be interesting if kids started off their independant life working off the time and money their parents spent raising them. |
| 06:35.07 | Sargun | RyanE, I agree that when it comes to moral responsibility a unit has to be weaned onto it, but sometimes supervisors give it to a unit in chunks that are too large. |
| 06:35.08 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Do you use Chatteremail on your Treo(s)? |
| 06:35.34 | levi | Sargun: Will you please stop referring to people as 'units'? |
| 06:35.42 | RyanE | Sargun: all parents are idiots from time to time, and make mistakes. Some of us *most* of the time. |
| 06:35.42 | fozzmoo | levi: They'd be living at home for 30 years! |
| 06:35.54 | Sargun | fozzmoo, No. I used to, now I just use versamail, plus SMS pushes out the first 160 or so important characters of the email |
| 06:36.04 | Supaplex | and I thought we were playing RISK! |
| 06:36.09 | Sargun | fozzmoo, So, if its from my boss, I can go ahead and use vesamail and fetch the rest |
| 06:36.11 | RyanE | I'd still be paying my dad off. As it is now, I just keep him supplied with new tech. |
| 06:36.31 | levi | fozzmoo: Well, maybe you wouldn't have to pay them off immediately. It'd be kind of like a student loan. |
| 06:36.43 | fozzmoo | Sargun: I really like chatteremail. I started using it to prove to a coworker that my Treo was every bit as cool as he thought his Blackberrry was going to be. |
| 06:37.02 | RyanE | I think parents need to treat their kids pretty well, because with how long we'll live these days, you're going to need them... |
| 06:37.15 | Sargun | fozzmoo, I haven't found anything too great about the BB |
| 06:37.39 | Sargun | fozzmoo, I tested 3 BBs and didn't find anything too much better about them compared to the treo |
| 06:37.53 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I know. |
| 06:38.07 | Sargun | I mean there are certain application friendlies. |
| 06:38.18 | fozzmoo | Only problem with running chatteremail is that it drains the batter. |
| 06:38.20 | fozzmoo | battery! |
| 06:38.29 | Sargun | fozzmoo, I like my SMS solution |
| 06:38.31 | levi | So, I want to learn to play some approximation of 'Stray Cat Strut' on my guitar. |
| 06:38.35 | Sargun | It works |
| 06:38.43 | Sargun | RyanE, Are you parent? |
| 06:38.54 | fozzmoo | RyanE: ARe you a parental unit? :) |
| 06:39.11 | RyanE | yep. |
| 06:39.33 | levi | Unfortunately, I suck, and Brian Setzer is totally awesome, so there's a bit of a "skill gap", so to speak. |
| 06:39.51 | fozzmoo | Well, with a name like Setzer... you never can compete. |
| 06:40.21 | Sargun | RyanE, How old are your kid(s) if I may ask? |
| 06:40.32 | RyanE | the oldest is 13, youngest 4. |
| 06:40.37 | Sargun | Wow, big gap. |
| 06:40.44 | RyanE | and 3 in the middle. |
| 06:40.47 | RyanE | no gap |
| 06:40.57 | Sargun | RyanE, How far can the 13 year old go away from the house? |
| 06:40.59 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (n=bmidgley@c-24-2-92-215.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 06:41.20 | RyanE | he goes to friends' houses, rides his bike around. |
| 06:41.24 | Sargun | Do you have him/her drug tested, sniff him/her, etc.. |
| 06:41.27 | RyanE | nope |
| 06:41.35 | Sargun | And what time is he allowed to stay out until |
| 06:41.39 | fozzmoo | This is UTah, not California, after all. |
| 06:41.42 | RyanE | I certainly smell him plenty. |
| 06:41.44 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Well, sniff for alcohol, fire, etc.. |
| 06:42.06 | RyanE | he typically asks when he needs to be home, and is pretty good about it. |
| 06:42.23 | RyanE | but the smell is 13-yo smell, not fire, alcohol, drugs, etc. :) |
| 06:42.24 | Sargun | RyanE, Well, what's the latest he can stay out? |
| 06:42.35 | RyanE | probably 11ish, but that's pretty rare around here. |
| 06:42.56 | RyanE | usually home before 8-9, later in the summer. |
| 06:43.17 | Sargun | Do you let him do the sleep overs thing? |
| 06:43.35 | RyanE | I'm not a big fan of sleepovers, but he's done a couple, mostly with cousins. |
| 06:43.48 | RyanE | I'd have to know the parents, etc. to agree to it. |
| 06:44.01 | RyanE | Sargun: why? reasonable? |
| 06:44.17 | fozzmoo | So, not the parents with the tattoos, piercings, and cigarette butts in their hair. |
| 06:44.22 | fozzmoo | (I'm guessing.) |
| 06:44.31 | Sargun | Well, interviewing the parents ahead of time, googling them/the kids & their social networking sites, etc.. |
| 06:44.54 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Really the kids that show it aren't as bad, or dangerous as the kids that hide it |
| 06:44.58 | RyanE | fozzmoo: the kids have friends whose parents smoke, but they're pretty rare around here anyway. |
| 06:45.23 | RyanE | actually, I think the one who use to smoke stopped recently. But he still has really cool Jesus hair. :) |
| 06:46.03 | Sargun | I mean I know dozens of kids who are outwardly "goth" but inwardly "normal" |
| 06:46.21 | Sargun | and people who are outwardly "normal" but internally very messed up |
| 06:46.37 | RyanE | I think a lot of it depends on the kids' temperment. My oldest is pretty responsible. |
| 06:47.14 | Sargun | RyanE, do you call the parent when he is at the sleepover to make sure they haven't left the house between 10-6 |
| 06:47.39 | Sargun | I mean personally I hung out with the outwardly normal kids, internally messed up |
| 06:47.47 | RyanE | no. I do ask the 13-yo when he returns, and ask what they do, and details... |
| 06:48.11 | Sargun | One is dead, another with a shrink every day, and another parties, drinks, and smokes his life away. |
| 06:48.42 | lakshmi | RyanE you dont suspect lying ever? |
| 06:49.06 | RyanE | sure, and I call him on it if I do. |
| 06:49.29 | Sargun | RyanE, Does your kid have a MySpace, facebook, orkut, or any of those things? |
| 06:49.49 | RyanE | nope. and I tell him why I don't think he should. |
| 06:50.25 | RyanE | Sargun: do you think he should? |
| 06:50.27 | levi | Oh my goodness, he's not Social?! |
| 06:50.27 | sontek | pfft, my kid is going to be creating facebook apps by the time hes 4 |
| 06:50.39 | Sargun | sontek, hah, yeah! |
| 06:51.11 | RyanE | I find Jesse way too social. |
| 06:51.18 | fozzmoo | heh |
| 06:51.47 | Sargun | RyanE, Personally no, but if he shows signs he might be doing it using an external network, then allow him to get one, and sign up with him, ask him for the password, proxy it and watch what he is doing |
| 06:52.22 | lakshmi | RyanE my parents banned me from getting a social networking site, made me all the more anxious to do it. |
| 06:52.23 | RyanE | certainly be better to know what he's doing than not. |
| 06:52.44 | RyanE | I haven't banned him from it. |
| 06:53.03 | Sargun | RyanE, I doubt if you allowed a kid to openly have one they would take measures from their parents monitoring their connection |
| 06:53.05 | fozzmoo | My parents banned me from BBSing when I was 15-16 |
| 06:53.13 | fozzmoo | I ended up dropping out of high school. :) |
| 06:53.14 | Sargun | Black Board System? |
| 06:53.18 | Sargun | haha |
| 06:53.23 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Wow, you are old |
| 06:53.32 | RyanE | at 13, though, I think he'd still rather go play video games at his friends' house. |
| 06:53.42 | Sargun | RyanE, Good. |
| 06:53.50 | fozzmoo | Sargun: You haven't lived until you've traded messages with other users on the black board system. |
| 06:53.57 | RyanE | yeah, I used to do BBSes, but we never had a modem until I went to college. |
| 06:53.59 | Sargun | RyanE, What video games is he allowed to, does he play? |
| 06:54.06 | levi | My parents didn't ban me from BBSing; they bought a second phone line so they could get and make phone calls while I was doing it. ;) |
| 06:54.06 | sontek | I think playing online video games are worse than social networks |
| 06:54.16 | RyanE | levi: you're a bit younger than I. |
| 06:54.23 | fozzmoo | levi: Smart move, your parents. |
| 06:54.25 | Sargun | sontek, certain ones are worse |
| 06:54.31 | fozzmoo | My parents didn't really understand the whole computer thing. |
| 06:54.35 | sontek | I learned a lot of my vulgar vocabulary from counter-strike =) |
| 06:54.39 | RyanE | heh |
| 06:54.50 | RyanE | yeah, something to watch for. |
| 06:54.53 | fozzmoo | They bought me a computer when I was 11... and then couldn't understand why I kept askign for more stuff. |
| 06:54.54 | levi | RyanE: Thank goodness I'm younger than some people around here. I don't want to be the geezer. ;) |
| 06:54.57 | sontek | online video games are just interactive social networks |
| 06:55.11 | RyanE | like I said, though, parents have to figure it out as we go. |
| 06:55.17 | RyanE | I'm afraid I *am* the geezer... :) |
| 06:55.23 | fozzmoo | "What?! Why do you need a disk drive? Why do you need a tape drive? Why aren't you happy with the computer?" |
| 06:55.37 | fozzmoo | "What?! A printer?! A modem?!" |
| 06:56.00 | sontek | My mom actually through away a brand new modem and processor ($500, took forever to save up at 16yrs old) because they were on the floor and "looked like junk" |
| 06:56.00 | Sargun | fozzmoo, You got a tape drive? Lucky! |
| 06:56.03 | Sargun | :-P |
| 06:56.03 | levi | fozzmoo: My dad got our first computer to do his thesis or whatever for Law School. |
| 06:56.04 | fozzmoo | So, needless to say, I wasn't much of a gamer as a kid. |
| 06:56.19 | Sargun | sontek, isn't that threw. |
| 06:56.23 | fozzmoo | I wrote my own games in BASIC and saved them to cassette tape, eventually. :) |
| 06:56.23 | sontek | modem = mother board, dunno where modem came from |
| 06:56.32 | sontek | Sargun: yeah, I had more than one typo in that sentence ;) |
| 06:56.37 | Sargun | sontek, haha |
| 06:56.38 | fozzmoo | Or write the code longhand in a notebook so I could re-enter it again. |
| 06:56.42 | levi | fozzmoo: He taught me to write simple programs in BASIC. |
| 06:57.18 | fozzmoo | Alright fellow geezers. I'm done at this noizy data center. |
| 06:57.19 | levi | fozzmoo: We had an Apple clone, so I could save on floppy disks. |
| 06:57.26 | fozzmoo | CentOS5 on a couple machines. |
| 06:57.40 | RyanE | it's getting late for us geezers. Later. |
| 06:57.41 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Bye whitey. |
| 06:57.44 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 06:57.44 | Sargun | :-P |
| 06:58.17 | levi | I was hacking BASIC code while learning my multiplication tables at school. (For some rather weak definition of 'hacking', anyway) |
| 06:58.48 | Sargun | levi, Not ASM? Poor child. |
| 06:58.50 | Sargun | :-P |
| 06:59.43 | levi | Well, I could PEEK and POKE. |
| 07:00.41 | levi | BASIC of those days was not too far removed from asm, at least when compared to languages like perl. |
| 07:07.16 | *** join/#utah AndreSt (n=AndreSt@p508363FB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:11.58 | sjansen | Instead of doing my math homework, I wrote programs to do my math homework. |
| 07:14.17 | sontek | my friend Devin and I had a system, I did the Chemistry and he did the Math and then we traded |
| 07:14.21 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:14.22 | Sargun | 883 Regs. (18 %) 85 Mhz (906 Mbits/sec) |
| 07:14.22 | Sargun | UMC 0.18u Std. Cell 50K Gates 235 Mhz (2.5 Gbits/sec) |
| 07:14.23 | Sargun | that's beautiful |
| 07:14.31 | Sargun | http://www.opencores.org/projects.cgi/web/aes_core/overview |
| 07:15.10 | levi | Heh, opencores. |
| 07:15.41 | Sargun | levi, Why heh? |
| 07:16.07 | levi | It's a bunch of FPGA stuff. What's so beautiful? |
| 07:17.59 | sjansen | Re: Raising Kids. I only remember having two firm rules. 1) If you're going to be more than an hour late coming home for school, call. 2) If you're going to be out with friends past 10pm, call. |
| 07:19.45 | Sargun | levi, Fast, sexy FPGAs. |
| 07:19.51 | sjansen | My mother basically just trusted us to make good decisions. Probably helped that we never felt a need to rebel, act crazy, grow out our hair, smoke, drink, etc. |
| 07:19.59 | Sargun | sjansen, What was the dumbest thing you did before 18? |
| 07:20.19 | sjansen | But even if we had, we knew she'd still love us. She'd be disappointed, but love us. |
| 07:20.33 | levi | Sargun: They're useless without a bunch of hardware design, which is way expensive. |
| 07:20.42 | sjansen | Guess she understood that being disappointed was worse punishment than screaming and grounding. |
| 07:21.15 | Sargun | levi, They are good for testing and playing around with |
| 07:21.36 | levi | Sargun: I know what they're good for, I've been working with them at work for years. |
| 07:21.57 | sjansen | Sargun: I don't know anymore. One of the most expensive things I did was kill my car by cracking the engine block. |
| 07:21.58 | Sargun | levi, What's your position? |
| 07:22.13 | Sargun | sjansen, :-( |
| 07:22.19 | Sargun | sjansen, Well, did you drink under 18? 21? |
| 07:22.33 | levi | Short stop. :P |
| 07:22.56 | levi | In what sense of 'position' are you asking? |
| 07:23.06 | levi | What is my job, or what do I think about FPGAs? |
| 07:23.58 | Supaplex | anyone know of a free service that allows me to fax to a toll free number w/o needing a landline? |
| 07:24.09 | sjansen | I was taught not to so I didn't. My basic temperament is stubborn but not rebellious. I was taught why drinking was bad, so I didn't. Which isn't to say I was an angel. |
| 07:24.45 | sjansen | It probably helped that we were the only LDS family for 45 miles. Living LDS standard could be my form of rebellion. ;-) |
| 07:25.29 | Sargun | levi, Position? |
| 07:25.35 | Sargun | levi, Position as in Job? |
| 07:25.49 | Sargun | levi, Or what is causing you to learn about FPGAs? |
| 07:26.00 | levi | Sargun: I do embedded software, which ends up interfacing fairly regularly with FPGAs. |
| 07:26.12 | Sargun | sjansen, heh. |
| 07:26.21 | Sargun | levi, Where do you work if I may ask |
| 07:26.31 | levi | Sargun: However, that's about the *only* software that ever interfaces with FPGAs. |
| 07:26.47 | levi | I used to work for Linux Networx, now I work for Harman Pro Group. |
| 07:27.11 | sjansen | But seriously, it's amazing how much you can accomplish just by respecting your kids. |
| 07:29.14 | sontek | I want to work for Linux Networx, isn't that where Erik Anderson works? |
| 07:29.21 | levi | Embedded programming tends to be pretty utilitarian stuff. Twiddle register bits, shunt data around in memory, etc. |
| 07:29.39 | lakshmi | my partner came through |
| 07:29.40 | Sargun | levi, That's so painful |
| 07:29.43 | lakshmi | he's alive! |
| 07:30.04 | Sargun | We have to do a PNAV app at work in 32 mb |
| 07:30.14 | sjansen | I remember a friend discussing his dad's approach to his children's pot use. After my friend cleaned himself up without his parents knowing what he'd been doing, his younger brother started down the same path. So he confronted his dad with the problem and asked what he was going to do about it. His dad's answer? "The same thing I did with you." |
| 07:30.22 | levi | 32 megs is pretty spacious! |
| 07:31.30 | Sargun | If someone would create a router which ran Linux as the control-plane and wrote a hardware FEA that would be kickass |
| 07:31.40 | levi | sontek: Hmm, that's not sounding familiar. |
| 07:32.04 | sjansen | lakshmi: yay! |
| 07:32.05 | Sargun | Is someone could make a cheap router which could do a couple MPPS |
| 07:32.06 | sontek | My mom divorced my dad because she found out he was dealing drugs, so drugs were a very big no-no in our family, she would've beaten us clean if we had ever trieed ;P |
| 07:32.08 | Sargun | it would be nice. |
| 07:32.14 | lakshmi | sjansen wheres cambodia? |
| 07:32.18 | Sargun | sontek, Oh, wow. |
| 07:32.29 | levi | sontek: Ah, Erik Andersen, the bzflag guy? |
| 07:32.30 | lakshmi | im thinking asia but i could be wrong |
| 07:33.15 | levi | Er, no, Tim Riker is bzflag. |
| 07:33.18 | Sargun | yeah |
| 07:33.21 | sontek | levi: I dunno if he works on BZFlag, but he worked at WordCruncher and Lineo with Rikers |
| 07:33.23 | Sargun | ibot |
| 07:33.34 | sjansen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia |
| 07:33.34 | sontek | hes a very good developer |
| 07:33.38 | levi | Erik Andersen is the busybox guy. |
| 07:33.43 | sontek | i'd love to work with someone like him =) |
| 07:33.48 | levi | Nope, he definitely didn't work at Linux Networx. |
| 07:33.49 | sontek | levi: yeah |
| 07:34.02 | levi | But I used busybox there! :) |
| 07:35.33 | levi | Of course, everyone uses busybox, so it's no wonder he seems to be doing well as a consultant these days. |
| 07:36.50 | levi | I'm not sure if there's any embedded programming to be done at Linux Networx these days. |
| 07:37.42 | levi | Which is one of the main reasons I left. |
| 07:37.42 | levi | I'm working on cool new world-changing network stuff now at Harman. :) |
| 07:40.36 | sontek | I do high level web development at my current job, I want to get into something lower level |
| 07:40.42 | sontek | i'm pretty bored of what i'm doing right now |
| 07:41.24 | levi | Do you know C very well? |
| 07:42.48 | sjansen | lakshmi: Is the interest in Cambodia because of an English research paper? I did Theravada Buddhism for my Freshman Honors English class. The professor was oddly obsessed with Myanmar (Burma) and required we pick a related topic. |
| 07:43.17 | sontek | I know it well for desktop application development, I used to hack on evolution and now i'm working on mango lassi |
| 07:43.25 | sontek | but I've never done anything embedded |
| 07:43.42 | levi | I don't know what mango lassi is, aside from being a delicious Indian drink. |
| 07:43.46 | sontek | and I don't use it daily since my day job is python and C# |
| 07:44.00 | sontek | mango lassi is synergy on crack |
| 07:44.24 | sontek | it uses avahi and some magic to auto detect other pc's near you and hook them up to share keyboard and mouse across all of them |
| 07:44.33 | levi | Ah, sweet. |
| 07:44.58 | sjansen | Man, Buddhism was a tough thing for a Mormon from North Dakota to wrap his head around. My brain simply refused to admit I was understanding the doctrine correctly. It wasn't until four years later is a World Religions class I discovered I was right. They have a pretty different philosophy of life in places. |
| 07:45.45 | lakshmi | sjansen no it was unrelated |
| 07:46.29 | sjansen | heh, okay then |
| 07:47.07 | levi | Well, if you want to break into embedded work, I'd suggest getting some sort of fairly inexpensive single-board computer, non-x86, and build a cross-compiler toolchain and a minimal Linux environment for it. Then write a little device driver kernel module of some sort, like a GPIO pin reader or something. |
| 07:48.06 | levi | Maybe hack on some other kind of device driver for some hardware in your PC, too. |
| 07:48.31 | sontek | are there any books/sites that are the "bibles" of embedded development? |
| 07:49.55 | levi | Embedded development is rather broad. At the low end, it's tiny microcontrollers programmed in C or ASM without an OS. At the other end, there's a full PC-class computer on a small board running Windows 2000 or something. |
| 07:49.55 | Supaplex | I think wikibooks has some stuffs on embedded systems dev/testing etc |
| 07:50.54 | levi | Embedded Linux stuff is somewhere in the middle, but it's a growing segment of the market. |
| 07:52.04 | levi | And the nice thing about embedded Linux is that it's just programming in Linux in or close to the kernel. |
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| 08:00.27 | levi | Time to sleep. |
| 08:00.32 | Tene | g'night |
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| 14:21.13 | Supaplex | hey ^Migs^ :) |
| 14:21.37 | ^Migs^ | hey Supaplex |
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| 16:22.54 | ibot | dances the tango with fozzmoo |
| 16:28.08 | tensai | ~onjoin fozzmoo è…© |
| 16:28.08 | ibot | ok, tensai |
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| 16:39.19 | ^Migs^ | are there any GPL virus shields? |
| 16:39.34 | jsmith | Yup |
| 16:39.38 | ^Migs^ | ClamAV doesn't seem to have shield capability |
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| 16:42.41 | tristanbob_ | ^Migs^, by shield, what do you mean? on-access scanning? |
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| 16:43.19 | ^Migs^ | yes |
| 16:43.33 | elg | no |
| 16:45.30 | tristanbob_ | http://dazuko.dnsalias.org/wiki/index.php/About |
| 16:52.12 | elg | fly me to the moon |
| 17:04.01 | tristanbob_ | ^Migs^, btw - I have never used dazuko, just read about it |
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| 17:07.43 | neybar | ... I don't know ibot, /dev/null is pretty darn useful sometimes |
| 17:13.17 | ^Migs^ | ok |
| 17:13.24 | ^Migs^ | thanks |
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| 17:35.12 | Supaplex | neybar: yes, but not for the same things :) |
| 17:37.11 | fozzmoo | jsmith: pingwhee |
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| 17:37.35 | jsmith | fozzmoo: plink |
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| 17:52.50 | levi | Morning. |
| 17:53.46 | RyanE | morning. |
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| 18:20.18 | tristanbob_ | http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9868873-16.html?tag=head |
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| 18:36.15 | levi | Cool, Scala has a way of lexically scoping extensions of base classes (kind of like Ruby open classes, but with scoped effects) |
| 18:45.05 | fozzmoo | What is the distance limitation of USB cabling? |
| 18:45.07 | fozzmoo | Anyone know? |
| 18:45.27 | fozzmoo | Without amplification/repeater. |
| 18:46.05 | fozzmoo | Google... marginally helpful. |
| 18:46.11 | fozzmoo | Someone said "about 15 feet" |
| 18:46.24 | dataw0lf | yea |
| 18:46.25 | RyanE | I think it's something like 5 meters, so yeah, 15 feet. |
| 18:46.31 | dataw0lf | ~5 meters |
| 18:46.31 | fozzmoo | Oh, here we go. usb.org |
| 18:46.58 | fozzmoo | Q: How long of a cable can I use to connect my device? |
| 18:46.58 | fozzmoo | A: In practice, the USB specification limits the length of a cable between full speed devices to 5 meters (a little under 16 feet 5 inches). For a low speed device the limit is 3 meters (9 feet 10 inches). |
| 18:47.31 | tensai | I recall that belkin packaging states that the max distance is 16 feet |
| 18:48.29 | fozzmoo | A buddy wants to use a Linux box to set up an ad hoc webcam security system. |
| 18:48.42 | fozzmoo | I recommended IP cameras. :) |
| 18:49.05 | jsmith | fozzmoo: There are some "USB over Cat-5" adapters you can buy and stick on both ends. |
| 18:49.21 | jsmith | fozzmoo: But I'm not recommending that, just letting you know there are options |
| 18:49.24 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 18:49.24 | tensai | poe ip cameras would be even better |
| 18:49.36 | fozzmoo | jsmith: what would YOU do? |
| 18:49.52 | fozzmoo | Oh, yeah. I need that bumper sticker! "What would jsmith do?" |
| 18:50.07 | fozzmoo | 99.9% of people wouldn't get it. |
| 18:50.13 | jsmith | fozzmoo: I'd say "I don't do security systems" and avoid the project altogether |
| 18:50.18 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
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| 18:53.03 | RyanE | jsmith: unfortunately, the extend USB over CAT5 and/or fiber are more expensive than just buying the IP Cameras in the first place. |
| 18:53.52 | jsmith | RyanE: Yeah, but most of the IP cameras stink. (Of course, most USB ones stink too -- hence the reason I'd punt on the project) |
| 18:54.29 | RyanE | well, cameras are *not* security systems, so yeah, they're going about it the wrong way entirely. |
| 18:55.11 | fozzmoo | RyanE: You're right. I think it's more of a surveillance project. |
| 18:55.50 | RyanE | yeah, IP and webcams are not there for 'real' surveillance. You would typically want a real security DVR. |
| 18:56.12 | RyanE | with high-quality cameras, but if he's asking about extending USB webcams, it ain't gonna to happen. |
| 18:56.28 | RyanE | 'gonna to'. yeah, that's awesome English there. |
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| 18:59.20 | fozzmoo | RyanE: It used to not could! |
| 19:00.53 | Sargun | I'd say go with IP cameras too. I've played around with a few that give out a raw mpeg stream, they are nice :-) |
| 19:01.10 | Sargun | Of course there are also the really crappy ones that require a windows client |
| 19:01.17 | Sargun | to login and get thumbnails/images |
| 19:02.25 | fozzmoo | I think he'd be happy with an IP camera that just had an embedded web server hosting the latest static image. |
| 19:03.05 | RyanE | well, that's most of 'em these days. |
| 19:03.05 | fozzmoo | Well, whadyaknow!? Joomla doesn't support PostgreSQL |
| 19:03.11 | fozzmoo | Not yet, anyway. |
| 19:03.35 | fozzmoo | Oh wait. Maybe it does! |
| 19:05.10 | Sargun | heh |
| 19:09.46 | rsimpkins | Have you guys ever known a police officer (as a friend or something), that starts out with good intentions, but over time slowly establishes strong anti-racial views due to the reality of his work? |
| 19:10.51 | fozzmoo | Yeah. |
| 19:10.51 | jsmith | rsimpkins: No, but all the cops I know *really* hate stupid people |
| 19:11.04 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Same thing for firefighters, EMTs, etc. |
| 19:11.05 | rsimpkins | I know an officer that started out a very good guy. In his work he seems to deal a lot with one particuarly ethnic culture as law violators. Maybe it is just cooincidence, who knows. Any how, this guy has developed a real dislike for this ethnic group. |
| 19:11.07 | fozzmoo | A lot of people, actually. |
| 19:11.25 | fozzmoo | When you talk to them, they'll say, rationally speaking, they don't feel they're racist... |
| 19:12.01 | fozzmoo | it's just they harbor negative feelings for so many people who are mexican, for example. |
| 19:12.10 | Tene | I've started to get a real low opinion of Indians since I've been working at Guru Labs. |
| 19:12.34 | fozzmoo | Tene: I don't know if you know this, but Dax isn't Indian. |
| 19:12.34 | rsimpkins | I think it happens in several different work capacities. |
| 19:12.52 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 19:12.57 | Tene | fozzmoo: Heh. |
| 19:13.19 | rsimpkins | If you are dealing with one ethnic culture, and view some sort of problem with that culture as a major flaw in it, then it can be hard to check yourself. |
| 19:16.48 | rsimpkins | I'm wondering if that is happening to the TSA and DHS. |
| 19:16.48 | Tene | I don't know much about Indian culture, but I *do* know that there are repeat problems I see with almost every student from India that I don't see with any other students. |
| 19:16.48 | rsimpkins | They are dealing, largley, with one ethnic group. To me it seems like that would pollute the group and make it harder for them to detect threats. |
| 19:16.48 | fozzmoo | I mean, I have a real problem with illegal immigrants, in general... and they are usually Mexican. |
| 19:16.48 | fozzmoo | I don't have a problem with them being Mexican. I have a problem with them being illegal immigrants. |
| 19:16.48 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Right, in the scenario above the line is crossed if you start viewing all Mexican's as illegal immigrants as your first reaction. Sort of guilty until they show you their green card or something. |
| 19:16.48 | rsimpkins | Not that you do that.... |
| 19:16.48 | rsimpkins | but that is what is happening. |
| 19:16.48 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I can see that. |
| 19:16.49 | fozzmoo | It's... sort of an anticipated bias. |
| 19:17.47 | fozzmoo | Like being pleasantly surprised when someone who looks Indian speaks fluent English. |
| 19:17.47 | fozzmoo | with no accent. |
| 19:17.47 | fozzmoo | Like I'm guessing Sargun and Lakshmi do. |
| 19:17.48 | rsimpkins | I actually really enjoy the Mexican culture and its people. Just to make that clear. My Mother lived in Mexico many years. As well as my grandparents and much of my family. |
| 19:17.49 | lakshmi | fozzmoo what? |
| 19:17.58 | fozzmoo | lakshmi: I'm guessing you speak fluent English with little or no accent. |
| 19:18.04 | rsimpkins | lakshmi: We are talking about the sensitive subject of race. |
| 19:18.07 | fozzmoo | because you're native American. |
| 19:18.15 | fozzmoo | Not that you're a native american... |
| 19:18.17 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 19:18.26 | lakshmi | ah |
| 19:18.29 | fozzmoo | But you were born and raised in the USA. |
| 19:18.40 | lakshmi | vernacular languages and early religion ftw |
| 19:19.05 | Sargun | fozzmoo, You've never been to California? |
| 19:19.10 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: You have family that migrated to Mexico in the early daze? |
| 19:19.10 | herlo | I'm a native American |
| 19:19.18 | herlo | but not a Native American |
| 19:19.24 | RyanE | I speak with a Spanish *Fork* accent, does that count? |
| 19:19.28 | fozzmoo | Sargun: Yeah- just went to Dizzyland a couple weeks ago. |
| 19:19.42 | Sargun | It's like 30% Indian, and at least 70% of those speak fluent english in the bay area |
| 19:19.47 | RyanE | fozzmoo: I think Dizzyland != California... :) |
| 19:19.57 | Sargun | latitude goes from -90 to 90 right? |
| 19:19.59 | RyanE | it's like the Vatican, it's own City-State. |
| 19:20.01 | Sargun | and logitude from -180 to 180 |
| 19:20.23 | fozzmoo | RyanE: Maybe not IN Dizzland, but my plane didn't land IN Dizzyland. |
| 19:20.33 | fozzmoo | I had to travel THROUGH California to get there. |
| 19:20.37 | RyanE | fozzmoo: you sure they don't have an airport yet? :) |
| 19:20.40 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: Yes. |
| 19:21.04 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: my brother in law married a girl whose mother is from Mexico - same story. |
| 19:21.33 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: About the only thing I picked up on where a few fun spanish phrases, and the food. |
| 19:21.41 | fozzmoo | rsimpkins: I really didn't even know about "those people" before then. |
| 19:21.52 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: I always get gawked at when I go in to the 'real' mexican food places. |
| 19:22.12 | rsimpkins | Kinda like - 'what are you doing in here gringo?' |
| 19:22.18 | fozzmoo | His hair! His skin! It's too... light! SHIELD YOUR EYES! |
| 19:22.21 | RyanE | yeah, you're the stereotypical gringo. |
| 19:22.24 | RyanE | as am I |
| 19:23.27 | rsimpkins | My grandfather actually moved down there to work for the US government. |
| 19:24.02 | rsimpkins | There was an issue with some disease and the cattle, so the US sent a bunch of ranchers down there to ensure the cattle were being taken care of properly. |
| 19:24.03 | fozzmoo | A spy?! |
| 19:24.08 | fozzmoo | oh okay. |
| 19:24.51 | Sargun | haha |
| 19:26.47 | fozzmoo | Sargun: a little backstory- when Mormon's first settled in Deseret (what is now Utah), some were sent south to establish communities in Mexico. So, there are settlements in Mexico of very non-Mexican looking people. |
| 19:27.06 | rsimpkins | fozzmoo: My great-great grandfather was one of those as well. |
| 19:27.17 | rsimpkins | So, we have a long family history in the mormon colonies, and Mexico in general. |
| 19:27.39 | rsimpkins | For example, I have an aunt 'Quantia' - but she is pretty dawg on white. :) |
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| 19:29.59 | rsimpkins | My mother would have had dual citizenship, but my grandmother was worried about the state of hospitals in Veracruz, esspecially 50 years ago. |
| 19:30.25 | rsimpkins | So she came back to the states, had my mom, then went back to Veracruz 2 weeks later. |
| 19:30.53 | rsimpkins | Including a few days in the back of a stagecoach... she was a tough woman. :) |
| 19:36.16 | fozzmoo | wow. |
| 19:49.52 | tensai | fozzmoo: at the time, utah was just as much mexico as chihuahua |
| 19:50.29 | RyanE | it just had the slight geographical advantage of being inbetween the US and where the Gold was. |
| 19:50.32 | tensai | in vmstat, does IO wait include network IO or just disk IO? |
| 19:51.15 | nick125 | I'd think it would be both.... |
| 19:58.38 | Sargun | uh |
| 20:00.22 | sjansen | Oof. I just corrupted my local git repo. :-( |
| 20:00.49 | findlay | that's right, git is corrupt |
| 20:28.23 | herlo | sjansen: how'd you do that? |
| 20:28.47 | sjansen | Gotta little too sloppy with sed. |
| 20:29.36 | lakshmi | does anyone understand MLA format? |
| 20:29.49 | Jayce^ | wow, I used to.. |
| 20:29.53 | Jayce^ | that's been a while |
| 20:30.33 | lakshmi | i'm supposed to use superscripts and stuff. is that only after a quote or for anything ? |
| 20:31.04 | lakshmi | like i see the way wikipedia does it |
| 20:31.17 | lakshmi | and they site everything even if its not in quotes etc |
| 20:34.06 | herlo | sjansen: oops |
| 20:39.44 | sjansen | ~celebrate redbeard2 |
| 20:39.54 | levi | I had a missionary companion that was technically illegal. |
| 20:39.58 | levi | He was Armenian. |
| 20:40.32 | fozzmoo | I'm 1/4 Armenian. |
| 20:40.45 | levi | I also knew a guy from England who was violating his vacation visa to find a job and work here. |
| 20:41.15 | fozzmoo | probably why I don't get the 'what are you doing in here gringo?' treatment at "real" Mexican restaurants. |
| 20:41.30 | levi | No, wait, he was Albanian. |
| 20:41.41 | Jayce^ | It border on the adriatic! |
| 20:41.43 | levi | It's my friend in Virginia who is half Armenian. |
| 20:41.47 | fozzmoo | I'm not at all Albanian. |
| 20:42.17 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Is it a Simpson's reference? |
| 20:42.22 | Jayce^ | no |
| 20:42.29 | fozzmoo | I wouldn't get that either. |
| 20:42.34 | levi | So this illegal missionary dude is serving his mission in San Diego, which is crawling with INS people. |
| 20:42.39 | Jayce^ | animaniacs |
| 20:42.48 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. |
| 20:43.08 | levi | He decided it would be a good idea to tell a guy in the ward who was an INS agent that he was here illegally. |
| 20:43.30 | levi | There was a very hush-hush emergency transfer shortly thereafter. :P |
| 20:46.03 | fozzmoo | Emergency transfer, eh? |
| 20:46.19 | fozzmoo | The Church actively evaded INS authorities? |
| 20:46.39 | fozzmoo | or was it passive evasion? |
| 20:46.44 | Jayce^ | I was illegal for about half of my mission |
| 20:46.49 | levi | Well, the member was sympathetic and wasn't going to try to deport him or anything. |
| 20:46.59 | levi | This guy was illegal when he started his mission. |
| 20:47.28 | fozzmoo | levi: Makes you wonder if he was just tired of being a missionary. |
| 20:47.55 | levi | fozzmoo: No, he thought the INS guy would be able to help him figure out a way to legally stay here after his mission, or something like that. |
| 20:48.54 | fozzmoo | ahhh. |
| 20:49.08 | fozzmoo | Why would someone from Albania want to stay in the US? That makes absolutely no sense at all. |
| 20:49.17 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 20:49.28 | levi | Heh. |
| 20:49.47 | fozzmoo | I sat next to a girl from Albania on a plane from John Wayne (Orange Cty) to Las Vegas. |
| 20:49.58 | fozzmoo | She was in sales for a skin care company. |
| 20:50.01 | levi | Apparently you can get nice European cars in Albania for cheap. They're pretty much all stolen vehicles, though. |
| 20:50.09 | fozzmoo | She was reading the Wall Street Journal. |
| 20:50.15 | fozzmoo | I thought that was very hot. |
| 20:50.37 | fozzmoo | Tall, attractive Albanian girl reading a business newspaper. |
| 20:50.43 | fozzmoo | I about had a heart attack. |
| 20:51.16 | levi | If she looked anything like this guy, she would definitely not be hot. He had the longest nose I've ever seen. |
| 20:51.20 | fozzmoo | So, we talked... she asked me what I was doing in California. I told her (job interview.) |
| 20:51.45 | fozzmoo | She asked me who the interview was for and where they were. I told her. She told me that was a very nice, upscale area. |
| 20:52.03 | fozzmoo | I said, "Yeah, well, it's better than Costa Mesa." |
| 20:52.11 | fozzmoo | She told me she lived in Costa Mesa. |
| 20:52.18 | levi | Oops. |
| 20:52.27 | fozzmoo | She gave me the WSJ when she debarked. |
| 20:52.41 | fozzmoo | It had her PO Box on it. |
| 20:53.27 | fozzmoo | That is, it had been mailed to her. |
| 20:53.35 | fozzmoo | Not that she wrote her PO Box on it. |
| 20:53.45 | fozzmoo | "Hey- mail me something sometime, hot stuff." |
| 20:53.53 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 20:54.04 | Tene | Heh. |
| 20:54.07 | levi | I figured that, after going down the other path for a moment. |
| 20:54.08 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 20:54.11 | sontek | you should've mailed her a box with a finger in it |
| 20:54.42 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 20:56.10 | levi | So, does the story continue? |
| 20:56.36 | fozzmoo | nope. She got off in Vegas. Went and sold some skin care products. |
| 20:56.39 | fozzmoo | I went to Salt Lake. |
| 20:56.50 | levi | Hmm. I'm afraid I missed the point, then. |
| 20:56.58 | fozzmoo | after calling some friends from the airport to tell them about the hot Albanian chick I sat by. |
| 20:57.22 | fozzmoo | I'm not sure, but I think goozbach was the recipient of one of those calls. |
| 20:57.54 | Tene | I heard about it the next day at work, I think. |
| 20:59.13 | fozzmoo | levi: The point is that we waste a lot of electronic resources here in IRC! |
| 21:00.01 | ^Migs^ | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/24/wdwarf124.xml |
| 21:00.03 | levi | fozzmoo: Gotcha, I'm with you there. :P |
| 21:00.04 | brac | [Dwarves zipped in suitcases steal from Swedes - Telegraph] |
| 21:00.06 | ^Migs^ | Criminal gangs are using dwarves in a ruse to steal from the luggage holds of long-distance coaches, by hiding them inside suitcases, according to police. |
| 21:00.20 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 21:01.51 | levi | Hmm, I didn't know 'dwarves' was okay to use in a non-fantasy context now. |
| 21:04.11 | ^Migs^ | what are they going to do? Throw tiny hammers at us? |
| 21:04.34 | ^Migs^ | and there's your daily dose of good old-fashioned prejudice |
| 21:04.39 | mrpull | that headline sounds like it was ripped from the Onion |
| 21:04.45 | levi | The correct plural of 'dwarf' used to be 'dwarfs'. The dwarfs were probably not the ones who cared, it was the grammar police. |
| 21:04.47 | ^Migs^ | yeah, it does |
| 21:04.57 | ^Migs^ | uh |
| 21:05.04 | ^Migs^ | yeah, why is it 'dwarves' anyway? |
| 21:05.17 | levi | Because Tolkien liked 'dwarves' better for his little people. |
| 21:05.19 | ^Migs^ | I mean, why do people spell it that way? |
| 21:16.50 | findlay | man |
| 21:17.06 | findlay | why are tie rod ends so expensive? |
| 21:17.25 | findlay | $65 for a chunck of steel |
| 21:21.15 | neybar | union fees |
| 21:21.35 | findlay | heh |
| 21:22.15 | levi | findlay: It's a car part. They're expensive. Can you get one from a junkyard? |
| 21:22.50 | findlay | levi: I'm not sure it would be worth it |
| 21:24.31 | findlay | if the tie rod separates from the wheel assembly, you die :) |
| 21:24.45 | findlay | worst case |
| 21:25.20 | levi | Well, you die in all sorts of worst-case scenarios. |
| 21:25.27 | findlay | true |
| 21:25.41 | findlay | well at best, you wreck |
| 21:26.15 | levi | Oh, c'mon! You've got 4 wheels, do you really think you need *all* of them to drive? ;) |
| 21:26.19 | mrpull | I've been in a car when the tie rod failed |
| 21:26.27 | mrpull | we just had to pull off of the road |
| 21:26.29 | mrpull | no wreck |
| 21:26.35 | mrpull | no long term damage |
| 21:27.13 | findlay | mrpull: that sounds lots nicer |
| 21:27.54 | findlay | mrpull: btw, are you still going to bring that keybard tomorrow? :) |
| 21:28.04 | mrpull | doh... Wednesday right? |
| 21:28.18 | findlay | yeah, Wednesday |
| 21:28.36 | mrpull | my attendance is up in the air. v-day may take precedence this month. |
| 21:28.56 | mrpull | which is a bummer, because this is the first month in the last few that I'm actually in town |
| 21:29.15 | Jayce^ | v-day is the day after though :) |
| 21:29.15 | mrpull | if I come, I'll bring it. |
| 21:29.31 | mrpull | yup... but the 13th might work better for the babysitter :) |
| 21:31.23 | findlay | what's v-day? Germany surrendered in May, besides, that was 63 years ago |
| 21:39.53 | fozzmoo | Victory? |
| 21:40.12 | tensai | velociraptor day |
| 21:40.36 | findlay | vitriolic day |
| 21:41.20 | tensai | just be glad it's not VD Day |
| 21:41.53 | findlay | vomit destruction day |
| 21:46.56 | *** join/#utah stderr (n=stderr@adsl-75-14-203-206.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:49.07 | tensai | I've got a sql query where I sum up the values of a certain field. I want to subtract a set number from that sum, but if the result is less than zero it should return zero. |
| 21:49.32 | tensai | how would I do that? |
| 21:50.49 | sjansen | perl |
| 21:51.44 | tensai | I wish. it has to be done in sql. |
| 21:53.43 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@195.sub-166-161-154.myvzw.com) |
| 21:55.46 | jsmith | tensai: Something like "SELECT IF ((sum(foo) - 500)>0,(sum(foo) - 500),0) FROM bar WHERE baz = 42;" |
| 21:56.10 | jsmith | tensai: (with obvious replacements for foo, bar, baz, 500, and 42) |
| 21:56.37 | jsmith | tensai: (in PostgreSQL you'd wanna do that with a CASE statement) |
| 21:56.48 | sjansen | select max(0, subtotal) from (select sum(field) as subtotal ...) ? |
| 22:00.12 | sjansen | select solution from dan_hanks where payment = 'cookie'; |
| 22:01.10 | Tene | http://meusite.uai.com.br/~mmand/plua/plua.htm |
| 22:01.14 | tensai | hmm. both interesting options. now to see which one works the best. |
| 22:01.18 | tensai | ~sjansen++ |
| 22:01.20 | tensai | ~orbit++ |
| 22:01.23 | tensai | ~jsmith++ |
| 22:01.36 | mrpull | tene: people still use Palm? |
| 22:01.58 | Tene | mrpull: Yes. |
| 22:03.39 | jsmith | sjansen: Subselect? Are you nuts? |
| 22:04.45 | tensai | jsmith: it's ok. this isn't mysql. |
| 22:07.01 | sjansen | Nobody ever needs subselects, triggers or aliases. |
| 22:07.19 | sjansen | Well, nobody that has the freedom to completely re-design their entire application around the DB. ;-) |
| 22:08.06 | sjansen | s/aliases/views/ |
| 22:08.15 | tensai | sjansen: don't forget transactions |
| 22:09.45 | Tene | http://www.supercook.com/ |
| 22:09.47 | brac | [SuperCook - The Intelligent Recipe Search Engine] |
| 22:10.08 | tensai | jsmith: I got a CASE statement that works perfectly |
| 22:10.56 | jsmith | sjansen: No, I just don't like subselects for performance reasons. |
| 22:11.13 | tensai | CASE WHEN (SUM(DATEDIFF(minute, callstart, callend)) - 100) < 0 THEN 0 ELSE (SUM(DATEDIFF(minute, callstart, callend)) - 100) END |
| 22:12.44 | sjansen | jsmith: Shrug? Depending on the DB, working is more important than performance. |
| 22:16.38 | jsmith | sjansen: Well, in my case, I'd do it in PostgreSQL so that it would work AND work well ;-) |
| 22:29.10 | levi | A clock for findlay: http://allfunny.net/index.php/funny-pictures/nerd-clock.html |
| 22:29.14 | brac | [Funny @ AllFunny.net - Jokes, funny pictures, videos, funny avatars - Nerd Clock] |
| 22:30.45 | Tene | Is it a clock that hates women? |
| 22:30.55 | Tene | Ahh, three-nines. |
| 22:32.52 | nick125 | Anyone here tether their Verizon Treo to their laptop? |
| 22:36.20 | sontek | I tether my t-mobile treo to my lappy |
| 22:37.36 | nick125 | Which Treo? 650? 680? |
| 22:37.55 | sontek | yeah, the 650 |
| 22:38.16 | nick125 | I'm heading on a long trip tomorrow and I want internet access as I don't know if I'll have wifi around |
| 22:41.00 | *** join/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.145.58.209) |
| 22:41.32 | bonez44 | how does one add an address to one's whitelist? |
| 22:42.05 | bonez44 | I run spamassassin...and am expecting an encrypted email...but fear SA has cut it off as it tried to enter my email |
| 22:42.23 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (n=stderr@adsl-75-14-203-206.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:54.52 | Tene | So, I generally find case-insensitivity on a filesystem distasteful... |
| 22:55.21 | Tene | However, I can't remember ever finding the ability to have multiple files with identical names, ignoring case, useful. |
| 22:57.48 | sjansen | nick125: I've got a Sprint Treo 650, but I don't imagine it could be too different. |
| 22:58.15 | sjansen | http://www.gurulabs.com/goodies/Using_Linux_and_Bluetooth_DUN_with_the_Treo650.php |
| 22:58.17 | brac | [Guru Labs] |
| 23:00.50 | levi | Wow, so this kid was just asking me how to set up telnet from one Windows computer to another. I don't think he really knew what telnet was, aside from something you can use to control one computer from another. |
| 23:01.23 | nick125 | levi: It's simple: you don't. |
| 23:01.46 | Tene | Anyone have any opinions on case-sensitivity on filesystems? |
| 23:01.59 | levi | Well, I actually did it once, but I certainly couldn't explain how to do it to a guy who was pretty clueless to begin with. |
| 23:02.14 | Tene | yum install telnet-server |
| 23:02.16 | levi | I told him to set up RDP instead. |
| 23:02.18 | Tene | chkconfig telnet on |
| 23:02.35 | levi | Tene: You seem to have missed the part about both computers being Windows. |
| 23:02.39 | sjansen | case-insenstivity seems like a waste of CPU cycles |
| 23:03.05 | sjansen | levi: No, he's just implying that you start by install Fedora to replace Windows. |
| 23:03.12 | levi | case-insensitivity also becomes less straightforward in a Unicode-based world. |
| 23:03.51 | sjansen | Oof. Unicode an filesystems. A tale in itself. |
| 23:04.10 | sjansen | utf8++ |
| 23:04.17 | sjansen | If only it were that simple... |
| 23:04.34 | Tene | Although, thinking more, I started thinking about this from a discussion about case-sensitive programming languages. |
| 23:04.35 | levi | sjansen: Later he mentioned Ubuntu, and how he had failed to 'figure it out'. It may take a bit of work on his part before installing Fedora becomes a reasonable thing to do. |
| 23:05.17 | levi | Unicode makes things that used to be simple very not simple. |
| 23:05.19 | Tene | Are there any legitimate reasons to have variables or functions with the same name, ignoring case? |
| 23:05.42 | rsimpkins | Overloading? |
| 23:05.53 | levi | Tene: There's a tradition of case-insensitivity in the Lisp world. |
| 23:06.35 | levi | It has led to some conventions like using all-caps for quoted symbols in macros to make them stand out from the non-quoted ones. |
| 23:06.38 | sontek | in the C# world the standard is myVariable for the private member, and MyVariable for the public property |
| 23:07.04 | sontek | but in the mono world they've changed that standard because non-english speakers have trouble sometimes differentiating between the upper and lower case letters |
| 23:07.24 | Tene | Huh. |
| 23:07.30 | levi | Sounds like a wise move on Mono's part. |
| 23:08.32 | levi | The R6RS document for Scheme is the first that specifies case-sensitivity for Scheme. I believe the reasoning behind it was due to difficulties implementing case-insensitivity in the face of Unicode. |
| 23:11.36 | levi | http://drewthaler.blogspot.com/2007/12/case-against-insensitivity.html |
| 23:16.26 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 23:17.53 | nick125 | Game assets. A game tries to load lipsync.dat instead of LIPSYNC.DAT. Without knowing it, the artist or developer has accidentally locked that game so that it can only run on a case-insensitive filesystem. < I actually had that problem with a certain game |
| 23:22.01 | nick125 | Some moron went and ported a Windows game to Linux..........and for some reason, the filesystem on the disk was case-insensitive...so when I copied the files over, *breakage* |
| 23:28.16 | *** join/#utah pmcnabb (n=peter@komodo.mcnabbs.org) |
| 23:30.26 | sjansen | levi++ |
| 23:31.10 | beandog | heh |
| 23:32.50 | dataw0lf | who's ever argued for case insensitive filesystems? |
| 23:36.19 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 23:36.39 | nick125 | dataw0lf: I don't think anyone has.... |
| 23:44.53 | tensai | dataw0lf: a few people have posted in favor of case insensitive filesystems |
| 23:45.08 | tensai | posted comments on that blog, that is |
| 23:45.51 | goozbach | wasn't there a recent release of LTS ubuntu? |
| 23:46.08 | goozbach | something newer than 6.06? |
| 23:46.38 | sontek | 8.04 |
| 23:46.46 | elg | dataw0lf: someone did once, or we wouldn't have them |
| 23:46.55 | elg | case insensitivity isn't automatic |
| 23:47.14 | elg | incidentally, I installed osx on a case-sensitive filesystem here (not the default) and i have had exactly 0 problems |
| 23:47.45 | dataw0lf | OS X's default filesystem isn't case sensitive? |
| 23:47.53 | elg | alas no |
| 23:47.56 | elg | it's case-preserving |
| 23:47.58 | elg | but not case-sensitive |
| 23:48.05 | goozbach | ahh 8.04 doesn't come out for a bit yet |
| 23:48.10 | goozbach | I see |
| 23:48.10 | mrpull | isn't NTFS the same? |
| 23:48.20 | elg | ~spell hypocrite |
| 23:48.45 | elg | mrpull: I thought so |
| 23:48.58 | elg | but apparently there are subtle differences between versions of windows |
| 23:50.08 | elg | at install time, you have the option for HFS+, HFS+ with journaling (default), case-sensitive HFS+ with or without journaling |
| 23:50.28 | elg | and UFS I think, which I haven't bothered to investigate |
