| 00:06.21 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-99-167-244-166.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:27.15 | *** join/#utah mrpull- (n=misterpu@mail.pollmann.us) |
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| 00:29.53 | ibot | dances the fozzmoo with elg |
| 00:37.06 | synic | do any of you listen to podcasts? |
| 00:37.07 | levi | I'm now in class. |
| 00:37.11 | levi | synic: I used to. |
| 00:37.57 | synic | do you know of any funny ones? With content like politics or technology or whatever, but with a good amount of comedy |
| 00:38.17 | Tene | http://pseudopod.org/ isn't what you're looking for at all. |
| 00:38.21 | levi | There's an NPR podcast I like. |
| 00:38.28 | levi | It's a comedic quiz show. |
| 00:38.33 | levi | I'm trying to remember the name... |
| 00:39.13 | levi | Ahhh, "Wait Wait! Don't Tell Me" |
| 00:47.53 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=shnocksh@66-240-25-49.isp.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 01:12.09 | tensai | synic: this week in tech is good for tech and humor |
| 01:12.22 | synic | cool |
| 01:12.35 | tensai | synic: the daily gizwiz, also from leo laporte, is quite funny as well |
| 01:12.56 | synic | http://www.twit.tv/ ? |
| 01:13.24 | herlo | synic: seen that, its awesome |
| 01:13.28 | sontek | diggnation is decent for comedy + technology overviews |
| 01:13.29 | tensai | synic: yes, that's the one |
| 01:13.34 | sontek | that go go into detail about technology |
| 01:13.47 | tensai | that's all the ones I have that are humorous |
| 01:13.59 | sontek | LUGRadio is pretty decent and they are pretty funny sometimes |
| 01:14.00 | tensai | science friday is a great tech podcast |
| 01:14.30 | synic | sweet, thanks |
| 01:14.36 | tensai | planetary radio is great for astronomy |
| 01:15.21 | tensai | kcrw's good food, the restaurant guys |
| 01:15.37 | tensai | coverville and acapodcast are my music podcasts |
| 01:15.45 | tensai | I think those would be my recommendations |
| 01:16.10 | herlo | tensai: holy crap, anything that you don't listen to? |
| 01:17.13 | tensai | herlo: that's only about half my list and I've sampled maybe twice that many. I listen while I work so I have lots of time. |
| 01:17.42 | herlo | yeah, I can tell |
| 01:17.52 | herlo | I need to do more of that sort of thing though... |
| 01:18.22 | synic | heh, I'm mostly doing it because people are complaining about podcast support in exaile, and it *is* crap, but only because I've never really gotten into podcasts. |
| 01:18.46 | levi | Man, you guys must have a different sense of what's funny than I do. :) |
| 01:18.55 | tensai | I started listening to them during my commute. the local npr affiliate is teh suck. |
| 01:20.19 | herlo | tensai: where? |
| 01:20.25 | tensai | herlo: idaho falls |
| 01:20.31 | herlo | tensai: ah right |
| 01:20.49 | herlo | were we talking about some stuff up there for the Idaho LUGs? |
| 01:21.16 | tensai | herlo: yeah |
| 01:21.34 | herlo | k, cool |
| 01:22.12 | tensai | herlo: take a podcast with you! |
| 01:29.23 | synic | heh, lugradio is pretty good |
| 02:12.13 | Heartsbane | yep |
| 02:20.20 | tensai | why, oh why, would this script mix ifconfig and ip? choose one or the other (preferably the latter). |
| 02:28.41 | lakshmi | hey all |
| 02:43.50 | tensai | die emacs die! |
| 02:57.56 | Supaplex | it's pretty sad when all you can find, is your own bug report dated months ago on an issue you run into again. no progress on debian #457006 :P |
| 03:19.46 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 03:19.46 | ibot | dances the fozzmoo with elg |
| 03:22.37 | tensai | elg: hey twinkle toes. want to try a zrtp call? |
| 03:28.04 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 03:28.04 | ibot | dances the tango with fozzmoo |
| 03:32.43 | elg | tensai: sure. i'm sitting across the room and there's no mic plugged in, but let's have it |
| 03:32.52 | elg | what do I need to do? |
| 03:33.31 | tensai | ok. I don't have a mic plugged in either, so this will be a quiet call. but that's ok. still should see zrtp media. |
| 03:34.47 | tensai | one critical aspect is that we can't have asterisk in the middle since it will refused zrtp |
| 03:34.57 | tensai | s/refused/refuse/ |
| 03:34.59 | elg | no problem. I have a public ip |
| 03:35.33 | tensai | in your user profile under security, make sure zrtp is enabled |
| 03:36.33 | tensai | I have "indicate zrtp in sdp" and "popup warning when remote party disables encryption" selected |
| 03:37.02 | elg | ok, i'm set up |
| 03:39.11 | elg | what do I call, or vice versa? |
| 03:41.26 | tensai | the way I've got mine set up I think I'll have to call out |
| 03:41.42 | elg | gwythaint.fugal.net, but I'm not sure what you dial |
| 03:41.56 | tensai | what's your username? |
| 03:42.02 | elg | fugalh |
| 03:42.21 | tensai | could you have come up with a harder hostname to spell? |
| 03:43.03 | elg | perhaps |
| 03:43.16 | tensai | nevermind. please don't. |
| 03:43.50 | tensai | did you see anything? I got a 408 timeout |
| 03:44.21 | elg | no, i didn't see anything |
| 03:44.31 | tensai | hmm. let me see what happened. |
| 03:44.42 | elg | looks like I have it configured to use 5062 |
| 03:44.50 | elg | as in port 5062 |
| 03:45.03 | tensai | 20:44:44.941612 IP 216.31.27.107 > 199.190.151.109: ICMP 216.31.27.107 udp port 5060 unreachable, length 556 |
| 03:45.07 | tensai | that would explain that then |
| 03:46.23 | tensai | elg: I got a 404 not found |
| 03:46.45 | elg | try foo@gwythaint.fugal.net:5062 |
| 03:47.14 | rsimpkins | I'm seriously considering rolling TMDA out the door, or rather, to shut my door. Anyone have any experiences? |
| 03:47.43 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 03:50.28 | elg | try elg@gwythaint.fugal.net:5062 |
| 03:51.03 | elg | that worked for me calling from my gizmo (laptop) to my twinkle (desktop) |
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| 03:51.13 | elg | -lart tensai |
| 03:52.25 | tensai | sorry. I got another call. |
| 03:52.29 | tensai | trying now |
| 03:52.54 | elg | answered |
| 03:53.01 | tensai | sweet. speex wideband. |
| 03:53.22 | elg | is it z? |
| 03:53.35 | tensai | did you hear that? |
| 03:53.41 | elg | my dtmf? |
| 03:53.46 | elg | i pushed some dtmf just for fun |
| 03:54.11 | tensai | do it again |
| 03:54.27 | tensai | I plugged in my headphones but forgot to put them on my head |
| 03:54.29 | tensai | yes, I heard it |
| 03:54.42 | tensai | and yes it is encrypted or at least it negotiated encryption |
| 03:54.59 | tensai | sha256, aes256 and dh4096 |
| 03:55.31 | elg | cool |
| 03:55.54 | tensai | I forgot to start tcpdump. let me call you again and capture it. |
| 03:56.05 | elg | ko |
| 03:56.32 | tensai | hmm. I got 404 just now. |
| 03:57.15 | tensai | what's the SAS |
| 03:57.19 | elg | hmm, now I have this sas thing |
| 03:57.27 | elg | hprj is what you saw? |
| 03:57.27 | tensai | mine says hprj |
| 03:57.30 | tensai | yeah |
| 03:57.35 | tensai | that's our key, essentially |
| 03:57.42 | tensai | because zrtp uses dynamic keying |
| 03:57.43 | elg | i think we're supposed to verify that whateer it is is the same so there's no man in the middle |
| 03:57.58 | tensai | yes |
| 03:58.14 | tensai | that's a lot easier than srtp |
| 03:58.22 | tensai | too bad my hardphone doesn't support zrtp :( |
| 03:58.41 | elg | what's the status on asterisk supporting it? |
| 03:59.03 | tensai | I asked jsmith but I don't recall the answer. seems like it was a 1.6 thing. |
| 03:59.16 | elg | probably |
| 03:59.37 | tensai | I remember he said something depended on good tcp support first. what that this? ... |
| 03:59.48 | elg | hmm, I don't think so |
| 03:59.56 | elg | no need for tcp just to do encryption, afaik |
| 04:00.04 | elg | openvpn is udp, after all |
| 04:00.18 | tensai | no. zrtp is just a wrapper around rtp, so it can use whatever transport is available. |
| 04:00.35 | tensai | but depending on how asterisk implements it, it might depend on tcp |
| 04:00.41 | tensai | I'm digging in my chat logs |
| 04:00.51 | elg | pretty sure it's something else |
| 04:01.09 | elg | did you capture what you needed? |
| 04:01.34 | tensai | <jsmith> tensai: There is working being done to get Asterisk to support both SRTP and ZRTP -- but we've gotta have good TCP support first |
| 04:01.45 | tensai | elg: yes, thanks |
| 04:02.06 | elg | dod |
| 04:02.09 | elg | odd even |
| 04:02.54 | tensai | elg: you were right the first time. the department of defense has intimidated digium and they're stalling on encryption support so that the nsa can keep spying on the internet |
| 04:03.21 | tensai | oh crap. I said that unencryptedly. If I'm not here tomorrow you'll know why |
| 04:05.25 | elg | ~blame NSA |
| 04:05.26 | ibot | ACTION blames NSA (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 04:08.27 | tensai | interesting. the payload still shows up as speex/16000 but the data is non-sense. I would have thought the payload would be zrtp. |
| 04:08.46 | tensai | but I guess this makes the rtp more friendly to zrtp-unaware systems |
| 04:10.17 | tensai | I'm kinda excited about it using speex wideband too |
| 04:12.44 | elg | speex rox |
| 04:18.07 | levi | Man, I feel like I just walked into #utaug |
| 04:26.31 | tensai | levi: you're welcome :) |
| 04:26.50 | levi | Nothing wrong with that, of course. Good content is good content. |
| 04:43.03 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
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| 05:24.46 | lakshmi | ~read |
| 05:24.47 | ibot | ACTION reads Lord of the rings |
| 05:24.59 | lakshmi | ~read beowulf |
| 05:25.14 | lakshmi | ibot cant read different books? |
| 05:25.21 | lakshmi | ~smack ibot |
| 05:25.22 | ibot | ACTION smacks ibot upside the head. |
| 05:25.29 | lakshmi | ~bad ibot |
| 05:25.30 | ibot | Bad ibot, bad! No cookie for you! |
| 05:25.45 | lakshmi | ~read ibot |
| 05:26.14 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 05:26.14 | ibot | dances the tango with fozzmoo |
| 05:28.10 | lakshmi | ~ dance ibot |
| 05:28.10 | ibot | ibot, dance with me! Ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' Elive, stayin' Elive |
| 05:28.20 | lakshmi | ~dance ibot |
| 05:28.20 | ibot | ibot, dance with me! Ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' Elive, stayin' Elive |
| 05:29.11 | lakshmi | omgs! ibot you kno! |
| 05:35.31 | rsimpkins | I usually can handle trolls, but no ones who question my honesty. :) |
| 05:35.47 | levi | So, the 'emacs.net' thing has been unveiled: i> ~ dance ibot |
| 05:35.51 | levi | Oops. |
| 05:35.58 | levi | http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Microsoft-Preps-New-Modeling-Language/ |
| 05:36.02 | brac | [Microsoft Preps New Modeling Language] |
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| 05:46.02 | tripzero | microsoft nooo |
| 06:01.44 | levi | tripzero: atoponce got his britches in a bunch over how Microsoft must be stealing Emacs source code or something a while ago. |
| 06:02.09 | fozzmoo | atoponce got his britches in a bunch over something?! |
| 06:02.10 | fozzmoo | NO! |
| 06:02.14 | fozzmoo | Say it ain't so! |
| 06:02.30 | levi | I and a couple of others argued with him a bit on his blog, and eventually he saw reason, as he usually does. |
| 06:02.46 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 06:02.46 | levi | So, I figured the topic might be of interest to some. |
| 06:02.48 | tripzero | llol |
| 06:03.33 | fozzmoo | I saw a magazine at the office today that had a headline about M$'s new "killer" CRM app "TItan" |
| 06:04.16 | fozzmoo | So, Dell's open source laptops... |
| 06:04.21 | levi | Anyway, Microsoft does a lot of interesting stuff, if you can put aside your bias long enough to look at it. Most of their interesting stuff comes out of Microsoft Research, though, in the form of papers and stuff. |
| 06:04.22 | fozzmoo | They have one that runs Turion processors. |
| 06:04.39 | fozzmoo | But it only does a max of 1400x900 or whatever that is. |
| 06:04.42 | levi | What's an open source laptop? |
| 06:05.08 | fozzmoo | That's Dell's line of laptops that come with FreeDOS and, I assume, aare also more hardwre compatible with Linux than others. |
| 06:05.31 | levi | With FreeDOS? Why not Linux? |
| 06:05.32 | fozzmoo | I've never really been a big fan of Dell hardware, but that's all my boss will buy. |
| 06:05.43 | fozzmoo | FreeDOS is small. :) |
| 06:05.55 | fozzmoo | It's a token OS. |
| 06:05.59 | fozzmoo | HP does the same thing. |
| 06:06.00 | levi | Dell servers are pretty nice, hardware-wise, but I'm not crazy about their minimal bioses. |
| 06:06.26 | levi | Why ship an OS at all? Surely no one is going to actually use FreeDOS on them. |
| 06:06.32 | fozzmoo | I'd rather have HP servers, especially blades, but again... he spends the money. I just tell hiim what to do with it. |
| 06:06.55 | levi | I don't have any experience with HP hardware, so I couldn't compare them. |
| 06:06.55 | fozzmoo | levi: I dunno. I think their web ordering system may not support the purchase of a computer without an operating system. |
| 06:06.58 | fozzmoo | So, freedos. |
| 06:07.22 | fozzmoo | Dell server hardware doesn't SUCK, but it's just not as advanced as HP. |
| 06:07.31 | Sargun | fozzmoo, HPUX isn't :-( |
| 06:07.33 | Sargun | er |
| 06:07.37 | Sargun | HPUX is :-( |
| 06:07.46 | Sargun | fozzmoo, I prefer Sun, Dell, HP |
| 06:07.53 | Sargun | er |
| 06:07.55 | Sargun | IBM before sun |
| 06:08.00 | Sargun | IBM, Sun, Dell, HP |
| 06:08.05 | Sargun | Greatest to least. |
| 06:08.18 | fozzmoo | I haven't worked on IBM hardware since a bunch of RS/6000s running AIX back in 93-95 |
| 06:08.25 | Sargun | Ouch |
| 06:08.29 | fozzmoo | AHhh. Those were the days. Administration via smit. :) |
| 06:08.36 | tensai | levi: it may also be part of dell's contract with microsoft to not sell OS-less computers |
| 06:09.09 | fozzmoo | Sargun: We had these SCSI-to-Serial port multiplexers and serial cable run throughout the company so people could log into the system. :) |
| 06:09.17 | Sargun | o.O |
| 06:09.22 | Sargun | That's so weird. |
| 06:09.31 | fozzmoo | I was the first IT guy (except it was "I.S." then) to introduce them to twisted pair networking. |
| 06:09.37 | fozzmoo | They had some coax ethernet. |
| 06:09.42 | fozzmoo | Repeated to hell. |
| 06:09.48 | Sargun | hehe |
| 06:09.48 | fozzmoo | They were running Banyan Lantastic. |
| 06:09.53 | Sargun | I remember Coax |
| 06:10.02 | fozzmoo | With a couple "servers" that they kept in a room by themselves. |
| 06:10.10 | fozzmoo | Oh wait, this was where Levi works now! |
| 06:10.22 | fozzmoo | I'm sure things are much better now. :) |
| 06:10.32 | Sargun | uh |
| 06:10.47 | fozzmoo | And I was running Linux. :) |
| 06:11.03 | fozzmoo | Had my boot and root floppies on hand at all times. |
| 06:11.43 | fozzmoo | That company was also my first experience with a 4GL business language. |
| 06:11.54 | fozzmoo | I'm glad we've graduted from that. |
| 06:12.55 | fozzmoo | Dell does have a 15.4-inch laptop that will do WUXGA, but you have to get a dual-core Intel CPU. |
| 06:13.01 | fozzmoo | I guess I could deal with that. |
| 06:16.11 | levi | fozzmoo: Yeah, the network infrastructure is better now, though there are some annoying policies and such. |
| 06:16.57 | levi | And it's fairly Windows-centric, though they'll let you reformat to Linux if you want, and even give some limited support for Ubuntu. |
| 06:16.58 | Sargun | fozzmoo, Uh, rate IBM, Apple [haha!], HP, Sun, Dell, or Beige Box from best to worst in your opinion |
| 06:16.59 | *** join/#utah undertak1ngyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 06:17.41 | fozzmoo | Well, if you're doing video editing on Macs... I think I'd recommend XServe hardware for servers. |
| 06:17.47 | fozzmoo | Especially if you're making lots of money. |
| 06:17.49 | Sargun | 22:17 -!- Irssi: Your nick is owned by Derek Carter |
| 06:17.49 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:17.50 | Sargun | wtf. |
| 06:18.26 | fozzmoo | Don't know much about IBM, but I think I'd put them side by side with HP |
| 06:18.45 | lakshmi | fozzmoo i like ibm |
| 06:18.46 | Sargun | I wonder how goozbach did that |
| 06:18.48 | fozzmoo | Don't know much about Sun's hardware these days either. |
| 06:18.58 | lakshmi | Sargun u know that kelsey has an ibm too? |
| 06:19.07 | lakshmi | Dell = bad |
| 06:19.41 | Sargun | lakshmi, Alright. |
| 06:19.45 | fozzmoo | But, yeah, I think I'd build beigebox... Supermicro or something before Dell. :) |
| 06:20.03 | fozzmoo | For example, I love Chenbro chassis. |
| 06:20.49 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 06:20.54 | levi | fozzmoo: We had interesting experiences building our own servers at Linux Networx. Switching to Dell hardware removed a lot of headaches. |
| 06:21.47 | fozzmoo | There are definite benefits to standardization whether you go with a brand name supplier like Dell or if you just buy all the same components. :) |
| 06:22.12 | levi | Well, even just buying all the same components can get you in trouble. |
| 06:22.20 | fozzmoo | I think you can get better performance and extensibility with generic components. |
| 06:22.38 | levi | Sometimes. |
| 06:22.46 | fozzmoo | For example, I spec'd a Dell box for a client this last week for a LInux server and it only has 2 SATA ports available. |
| 06:23.02 | levi | We did pretty extensive performance benchmarking. |
| 06:23.05 | fozzmoo | And this was a Dell server. |
| 06:23.12 | fozzmoo | levi: Oh yeah, I bet you did. |
| 06:23.31 | fozzmoo | Linux Networx probably spends half their time benchmarking performance. |
| 06:23.41 | fozzmoo | My guess, anyway. |
| 06:24.09 | levi | Well, they used to spend half their time tracking down bugs in motherboards, CPUs, etc. |
| 06:24.44 | levi | Do you recall the Slashdot story a couple of years back about a bug in Opterons? |
| 06:24.50 | fozzmoo | I think so. |
| 06:25.10 | levi | Yeah, we found that one. |
| 06:25.14 | fozzmoo | cool. |
| 06:25.29 | levi | And, clearly, it *did* come up in a real-world use case. |
| 06:25.47 | levi | Albeit an extreme one. |
| 06:27.33 | levi | But making generic PC parts work together took a HUGE amount of time, especially when you threw in the facts that we had to port LinuxBIOS to all the boards and that we nearly always had to use the bleeding edge stuff. |
| 06:28.15 | findlay | no way |
| 06:28.24 | findlay | computer parts all have the same connectors |
| 06:28.25 | levi | Dell seems to screen their stuff against infant mortality a lot better than most motherboard vendors do, too. |
| 06:28.29 | findlay | just plug them all together |
| 06:28.30 | findlay | and go |
| 06:29.02 | findlay | if it doesn't plug in, do some adjusting to the plug with your pocket knife |
| 06:29.10 | tensai | findlay: same is true of AC wiring. just tie the wires all together and it's guaranteed to work. |
| 06:29.19 | findlay | yup |
| 06:29.22 | findlay | :) |
| 06:29.26 | levi | findlay: Yeah, but what about when the voltage spikes on the i2c bus and scrambles your eeproms? |
| 06:29.42 | findlay | levi: you're obviously not using enough current |
| 06:29.54 | findlay | just turn the amps dial to max |
| 06:29.55 | tensai | that's what I had for breakfast. scrambled eeproms with bacon. |
| 06:30.05 | findlay | heh |
| 06:30.42 | findlay | levi: voltage spikes on i2c busses causing problems doesn't sound fun |
| 06:30.59 | levi | Anyway, Dell hardware is not particularly flashy, and sometimes they don't have the exact specs you need, but it's well-engineered and tested and has pretty good bang-for-buck. |
| 06:31.01 | findlay | but isn't that what Linux Networx is all about? :) |
| 06:32.16 | levi | findlay: Well, now it's all about getting large numbers of boxes built by Dell and another vendor or two to play nicely together, instead of all the custom-built nodes, LinuxBIOS ports, etc. Still a big job, but not quite as impossible to make money with. |
| 06:32.46 | findlay | production server, that is |
| 06:35.22 | fozzmoo | I used to work for a guy who loved Dell servers. |
| 06:35.30 | fozzmoo | But he insisted on buying them all used on eBay. |
| 06:35.36 | fozzmoo | Baffled me. |
| 06:35.36 | levi | Weird. |
| 06:35.36 | findlay | heh |
| 06:36.29 | findlay | what would be cool is a TI supercomputer |
| 06:37.08 | findlay | thousands of old grey TI 82's |
| 06:37.21 | findlay | runs on AAA batteres! :) |
| 06:37.42 | levi | Well, for some value of 'cool'. |
| 06:38.54 | levi | I saw a cluster made from PC104 computers stacked up in a tower. |
| 06:39.50 | Sargun | findlay, That'd be cool. |
| 06:40.07 | findlay | ~beowolf Sargun |
| 06:42.01 | lakshmi | heh |
| 06:50.48 | findlay | ~lute |
| 07:25.27 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=shnocksh@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 07:34.29 | rsimpkins | Wow, romney's campain is worthless. |
| 07:35.00 | rsimpkins | His people are paying a guy in .mx $300/week to post 'romney' quotes in IRC. |
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| 12:34.29 | atoponce | levi: so, it is an editor. to work with this new language specifically, as well as others, targeting scripting languages |
| 13:11.27 | atoponce | why did they call the language "D"? is this another codeword for some other technology, because isn't there already a D language? |
| 13:13.11 | atoponce | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_programming_language |
| 13:17.58 | atoponce | "I will say that in many ways Visual Studio has grown into a tool that’s far too large and complex for a wide range of development needs,” Rauschenberger said. “If I need to write a quick managed console app to solve a problem, it would be wonderful to have a lighter-weight alternative to the multi-gig footprint that Visual Studio has evolved into. I don’t know if that’s the direction they are heading in, but it is one |
| 13:18.04 | atoponce | heh |
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| 13:41.05 | ibot | dances the fozzmoo with elg |
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| 14:17.21 | ^Migs^ | lol, I'm wearing mismatched shoes |
| 14:17.21 | ^Migs^ | oops |
| 14:19.08 | ^Migs^ | good thing you can't tell unless you look closely. They're both brown Merrells |
| 14:29.41 | levi | atoponce: I do think 'D' is an internal name for their thing, for 'Declarative'. |
| 14:30.12 | levi | atoponce: The article was pretty vague about everything; I'd like to see more documentation on what it's all about. |
| 14:30.23 | levi | atoponce: You can be sure there's no GNU emacs code in it, though. :) |
| 14:31.00 | levi | Time to get to work. |
| 14:34.16 | Supaplex | ^Migs^: and your socks are untied too! what a mess you are today ;) |
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| 14:46.23 | ^Migs^ | I have a dumb question. Is there a way to "remote desktop" from Linux to a Mac? |
| 14:46.53 | ^Migs^ | I think VMware supports OSX now, but that's not quite the same thing. |
| 14:47.43 | Supaplex | I've had poor luck with vnc, but there is synergy. |
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| 14:51.21 | ibot | dances the fozzmoo with elg |
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| 15:21.07 | ^Migs^ | hmmm |
| 15:21.15 | ^Migs^ | I'd want it in a terminal server environment, though |
| 15:21.58 | ^Migs^ | ideally, I'd like to be able to run Linux, Windows, and Mac apps all seemingly from the same workstation. This may be unrealistic unless I invest in something like Parallels Desktop |
| 15:22.18 | Sargun | Uh.... |
| 15:22.22 | Sargun | ^Migs^, A) Why? |
| 15:22.27 | Sargun | B) How much are you willing to spend |
| 15:22.31 | Sargun | C) Timeframe? |
| 15:22.31 | ^Migs^ | Why not? |
| 15:22.38 | ^Migs^ | okay |
| 15:22.39 | Sargun | Who wants to run Mac Apps? |
| 15:22.57 | Sargun | You failed to answer point B & C. |
| 15:22.58 | ^Migs^ | (A) A principal wants to run Mac apps, yet I think it's stupid to invest so much into Mac hardware that only a few people will use |
| 15:23.08 | ^Migs^ | (B) Depends, but probably keep it low budget |
| 15:23.10 | ^Migs^ | (C) Whenever |
| 15:23.45 | ^Migs^ | probably sometime in early 2009 |
| 15:23.54 | Sargun | What Mac? |
| 15:24.05 | Sargun | Sun had a solution |
| 15:24.11 | ^Migs^ | he wants to put a bunch of Apples in his school. |
| 15:24.25 | Sargun | IMHO the best way would be to run three rdesktop/vnc sessions |
| 15:24.30 | Sargun | Mac, PC, and Windows |
| 15:24.39 | ^Migs^ | I think it's a bad idea, mainly for cost reasons, and because to fix them you send them back to Apple |
| 15:24.47 | Sargun | PC = Linux |
| 15:25.45 | Sargun | Tell him "You're an idiot, you are living in the early 80s" |
| 15:26.05 | Sargun | "You should learn to stop taking steps backwards, and start moving faster towards the future" |
| 15:26.07 | ^Migs^ | I agree |
| 15:26.19 | Sargun | "It's what'll make us change. |
| 15:26.35 | ^Migs^ | oh man, it's like trying to drag a house across a field getting these guys up to date on educational technology |
| 15:26.42 | ^Migs^ | they're TERRIFIED of the idea of thin clients |
| 15:26.42 | Sargun | I agree he may need WinCrap. |
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| 15:27.00 | Sargun | ^Migs^, I nuked the thin client solution at my school. |
| 15:27.15 | Sargun | They're really hard to administer unless you're running something like linux. |
| 15:27.25 | ^Migs^ | We're implementing LTSP on an Edubuntu server for all the student workstations. And it'd been resisted every step of the way |
| 15:27.33 | ^Migs^ | We use Wyse thin clients here at the Weber School District |
| 15:27.50 | Sargun | ^Migs^, They didn't have any restrictions on who could login to the thin client server. The protocol was RDP. |
| 15:27.55 | ^Migs^ | they ARE pretty cool, but actually a little tougher to administer, you're right |
| 15:27.57 | ^Migs^ | wow |
| 15:28.06 | Sargun | Figuring out the password was as easy as banging ahead against the desk. |
| 15:28.13 | ^Migs^ | Ours are locked down pretty tight |
| 15:28.16 | Sargun | Logged in, I could control people, watch their sessions |
| 15:28.21 | Sargun | all sorts of neat things. |
| 15:28.21 | ^Migs^ | integrated into eDirectory |
| 15:28.31 | Sargun | Well, they ran windows |
| 15:28.34 | ^Migs^ | Does iTalc work with LTSP? |
| 15:28.35 | Sargun | and spend 50k+ |
| 15:28.39 | ^Migs^ | yeah, that's another thing |
| 15:28.41 | Sargun | Not sur.e |
| 15:28.54 | ^Migs^ | Getting them to realize that they can't buy 100+ Windows XP on their $30000 budget |
| 15:29.06 | ^Migs^ | s/XP/XP licenses/ |
| 15:29.15 | Sargun | What was even more fun is that there was no fork bomb/memory bombing protection. |
| 15:29.18 | ^Migs^ | and still expect to have money left over for all the hardware |
| 15:29.20 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 15:29.33 | Sargun | Each user had their own management console |
| 15:29.45 | Sargun | So, what me and my friends would do is get like 4 user accounts |
| 15:29.47 | Sargun | I'd login |
| 15:30.09 | Sargun | drop a bat file |
| 15:30.09 | Sargun | Everyone would do the same |
| 15:30.14 | Sargun | We'd name it like, "clickMe.bat" |
| 15:30.22 | Sargun | and then at lunch someone would come in |
| 15:30.24 | Sargun | and guess what they did? |
| 15:30.29 | Sargun | they clicked me. |
| 15:30.33 | Sargun | :-D |
| 15:30.54 | Sargun | For the first couple weeks they would just go reboot the backend cluster. |
| 15:31.02 | Sargun | Then they invested in watchdog software. |
| 15:31.05 | Sargun | Didn't help them |
| 15:31.19 | Sargun | We just wrote software to login to each RDP session at random, and fork bomb it |
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| 15:31.34 | Sargun | and if we detected an RDP session was killed we'd respawn it. |
| 15:31.41 | Sargun | They didn't stand a chance. |
| 15:31.58 | Sargun | They had like, 80% downtime. |
| 15:32.07 | ^Migs^ | that's really stupid |
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| 15:32.21 | ^Migs^ | that you had to go through all that trouble, I mean |
| 15:32.24 | ^Migs^ | not your solution |
| 15:32.32 | Sargun | Meh, I told the IT admin to stop screwing with me. |
| 15:32.35 | Sargun | And stop threatening me |
| 15:32.42 | Sargun | and I told him his security was all broken |
| 15:32.52 | Sargun | and DO NOT spend $50k+ on just software |
| 15:32.57 | Sargun | which really really sucks. |
| 15:33.20 | Sargun | The nice thing was the next year we got all the systems replaced |
| 15:33.22 | Sargun | with dual-core Dells |
| 15:33.25 | ^Migs^ | no kidding |
| 15:33.28 | Sargun | Which A) Were beefy |
| 15:33.40 | Sargun | B) Everyone [including the teachers] liked better |
| 15:33.47 | ^Migs^ | if I left it up to the principal and the board member who's over the technical stuff, they'd buy ALL Windows, ALL commercial software |
| 15:33.56 | ^Migs^ | and lock themselves into thousands of dollars of worth of licensing fees |
| 15:34.20 | Sargun | I mean, take the chance to listen to another person's opinion. |
| 15:34.44 | ^Migs^ | I actually did convince them to use OpenOffice rather than MS Office |
| 15:34.49 | ^Migs^ | but only after I showed them everything it could do |
| 15:35.01 | ^Migs^ | and even then it took more convincing than it should have |
| 15:35.06 | Sargun | Wow. |
| 15:35.06 | Sargun | Nice. |
| 15:35.30 | ^Migs^ | I get the feeling they might change their mind at any given time and go back to their original Microsoft-centric approach |
| 15:35.45 | ^Migs^ | I also get the feeling they think we're just wasting their money with our thin client approach |
| 15:35.51 | Sargun | ^Migs^, Probably, but schools don't recognize the need to change. |
| 15:35.52 | ^Migs^ | well, actually I know they think that. |
| 15:35.56 | *** part/#utah dirkus (n=dirk@75-165-237-38.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 15:36.09 | Sargun | Well, why don't you just buy a copy of Windows Server |
| 15:36.11 | ^Migs^ | Adopting these new technologies like thin clients and open source really is a rapidly growing trend in schools |
| 15:36.15 | ^Migs^ | Actually we are |
| 15:36.16 | Sargun | and buy a bunch of user licenses |
| 15:36.19 | ^Migs^ | I thought this was kind of clever |
| 15:36.22 | Sargun | and setup windows thin clients |
| 15:36.26 | ^Migs^ | Our LTSP server will actually RDP to a Windows Server |
| 15:36.40 | Sargun | oh, how are you doing security, and resource parititoning |
| 15:36.57 | ^Migs^ | then we're going to try to use rdesktop's SeamlessRDP to just load Windows apps "locally" on the LTSP server |
| 15:37.07 | Sargun | yeah |
| 15:37.09 | ^Migs^ | not quite sure how well that will work out yet. |
| 15:37.22 | ^Migs^ | If nothing else, they can still log into the Windows Server. We're using ActiveDirectory too (didn't want to bother with OpenLDAP) |
| 15:37.23 | Sargun | Have fun with it though! |
| 15:37.33 | ^Migs^ | yeah. I think this'll be REALLY cool. |
| 15:37.39 | ^Migs^ | of course, they don't see it that way |
| 15:37.48 | Sargun | Well, how are you doing security? |
| 15:37.51 | Sargun | What prevents fork bombs, etc... |
| 15:37.51 | ^Migs^ | "Why can't we just install Windows XP on all our 100 machines?" |
| 15:37.54 | Sargun | memory flooding |
| 15:37.56 | Sargun | disk flooding. |
| 15:38.02 | Sargun | connection flooding. |
| 15:38.07 | ^Migs^ | Haven't gotten that far yet :) |
| 15:38.07 | Sargun | message bombing. |
| 15:38.08 | Sargun | etc? |
| 15:38.12 | ^Migs^ | what would you recommend? |
| 15:38.25 | Sargun | Uh, there is some 3rd party software |
| 15:38.31 | Sargun | I'd say don't use Windows :-X |
| 15:38.37 | ^Migs^ | I think it's unavoidable |
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| 15:38.38 | Sargun | Well, don't they have XP licenses already? |
| 15:38.42 | ^Migs^ | no |
| 15:38.46 | Sargun | or win2k? |
| 15:38.47 | ^Migs^ | we haven't purchased anything yet |
| 15:38.53 | ^Migs^ | the school hasn't been built. |
| 15:38.53 | Sargun | What do they use on their 100 current machines |
| 15:38.57 | Sargun | oh. |
| 15:39.13 | Sargun | Doesn't microcrap have a like $10 version of windows for poor people? |
| 15:39.15 | ^Migs^ | we plan on having around 30 machines for the staff, and 160 donated old computers we'll turn into thin clients |
| 15:39.23 | ^Migs^ | I haven't found that yet |
| 15:39.28 | ^Migs^ | educational discounts put it at around $90 |
| 15:39.34 | ^Migs^ | for XP, that is |
| 15:39.39 | ^Migs^ | SBS 2003 is around $540, I think |
| 15:40.12 | Sargun | Like, isn't htere a Windows Vista can't-do-anything edition? |
| 15:40.23 | ^Migs^ | Why would I want that? |
| 15:40.31 | ^Migs^ | the staff workstations are a different matter |
| 15:40.32 | Sargun | Its cheap? |
| 15:40.39 | Sargun | I |
| 15:40.48 | Sargun | I would say run a bunch of those in VMs |
| 15:40.51 | ^Migs^ | haven't run across that yet. I don't think we want Vista |
| 15:41.02 | ^Migs^ | it'd be cool, sure, but might not be practical |
| 15:41.13 | ^Migs^ | well, the student computers will be using Edubuntu |
| 15:41.29 | Sargun | Hm. |
| 15:41.30 | ^Migs^ | that's just a given, regardless of what the principal and board member says, it's the only solution they have |
| 15:41.41 | ^Migs^ | the problem is they're not going to have a computer lab. Instead, they're sticking a bunch of desktops and laptops in each classroom |
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| 15:41.49 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:42.01 | Sargun | hey TimRiker |
| 15:42.04 | ^Migs^ | They don't seem to understand that with their original install-an-OS-on-every-workstation approach, that's VERY costly |
| 15:42.25 | ^Migs^ | we're going to have 4 or 5 times the computers of other schools the same size |
| 15:42.35 | Sargun | See, I'd try to get around the ugliness of windows server |
| 15:42.44 | Sargun | because it doesn't handle load well :-X |
| 15:42.54 | ^Migs^ | I don't expect to use it that much |
| 15:42.57 | ^Migs^ | I agree |
| 15:43.08 | ^Migs^ | I'm going to try to offload as much as possible to Linux. |
| 15:43.14 | ^Migs^ | could even stick stuff like Photoshop in Linux with WINE |
| 15:43.30 | ^Migs^ | but they ARE going to want some Windows programs. That's what the extra Windows terminal server is for |
| 15:43.31 | Sargun | Well, what windows apps do you need to run? |
| 15:44.04 | Sargun | Well, what windows apps do you need to run? |
| 15:44.17 | Sargun | Other than a virus scanner, firewall, etc. |
| 15:44.18 | ^Migs^ | on the Terminal Server, possibly MS Office, Photoshop, Acrobat... |
| 15:44.20 | Sargun | :-P |
| 15:44.24 | Sargun | Acrobat? |
| 15:44.25 | ^Migs^ | ClamAV... |
| 15:44.39 | ^Migs^ | yeah, Acrobat Pro |
| 15:44.46 | Sargun | meh. |
| 15:45.17 | ^Migs^ | then there's other Win apps which won't go on the term server, like Nutrikids and QuickBooks |
| 15:45.27 | Sargun | oh, god./ |
| 15:45.31 | Sargun | QuickBooks |
| 15:45.34 | ^Migs^ | they were so determined they were going to use Windows they bought QuickBooks before I even came on board |
| 15:45.35 | Sargun | Get online edition |
| 15:45.59 | ^Migs^ | and they're unwilling to look at anything besides Nutrikids, like the free PSCafePOS which is VERY nice |
| 15:46.07 | Sargun | BBS transitioning to my Nokia N810 |
| 15:46.09 | Sargun | bye |
| 15:46.18 | ^Migs^ | although it runs on a Java server, I think |
| 15:46.31 | ^Migs^ | would prefer to avoid that. Nutrikids just uses an MS Access 97 (lol) db |
| 15:46.38 | ^Migs^ | and runs locally |
| 15:48.06 | ^Migs^ | I'm ALSO experimenting with the idea of using a fat client of sorts for the employee workstations |
| 15:48.25 | ^Migs^ | just doctoring up Ubuntu Linux to look as much like Windows XP as possible, then running those Windows apps off the terminal server |
| 15:48.35 | ^Migs^ | again, with SeamlessRDP |
| 15:48.46 | sargun_screen | ms access? |
| 15:48.53 | sargun_screen | that still exists |
| 15:49.03 | ^Migs^ | Yes it does |
| 15:49.05 | ^Migs^ | might need MS Access too, if OO Base isn't enough |
| 15:49.22 | ^Migs^ | they weren't even planning on having an electronic gradebook, which I believe is actually illegal not to in Utah |
| 15:49.35 | ^Migs^ | Utah schools and school districts are required to post grade and attendance information on the web |
| 15:49.42 | bonez44 | what's a good FOSS Contact Manager that works well with Palm devices and will interface with Outlook... Is Evolution the solution? |
| 15:49.49 | bonez44 | or would something else work better? |
| 15:50.12 | sargun_screen | you need to have paper backing in ca |
| 15:51.22 | bonez44 | paper backing? what's that for? |
| 15:51.34 | bonez44 | mistrust of all things electronic? |
| 15:52.23 | bonez44 | I can't WAIT until all the paper-loving Dinosaurs....and neanderthals die off......then we can toss out the paper...and move to a very efficient society.... |
| 15:52.29 | sargun_screen | no |
| 15:52.36 | bonez44 | the paper is there for those who don't trust electronic data, isn't it? |
| 15:53.35 | sargun_screen | its just the collective intelligence of a buncha 17 year lds is (surprisngly) more than migs |
| 15:54.09 | ^Migs^ | wow |
| 15:54.15 | ^Migs^ | I don't believe we have that requirement here |
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| 15:54.41 | ibot | dances the tango with fozzmoo |
| 15:54.44 | ^Migs^ | There are certain data we have to file with the state, involving things such as UPASS, Computer-based Training, etc. But they let you do most of that electronically. |
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| 15:55.03 | sargun_screen | they areally need a do-not-student policy |
| 15:55.21 | sargun_screen | er |
| 15:55.31 | sargun_screen | do not taunt |
| 15:55.38 | fozzmoo | ~thwack sargun_screen |
| 15:55.38 | ibot | ACTION bludgeons sargun_screen on the ear with a toaster |
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| 15:56.28 | sargun_screen | migs: when a teacher says: it cant be done/hacked |
| 15:57.03 | sargun_screen | or generally treats you like a dolt |
| 15:57.38 | sargun_screen | it gives you all the intention to crush their it group |
| 15:58.48 | sargun_screen | for example: they bought an 80k content filtering system |
| 15:58.55 | ^Migs^ | well clearly |
| 15:58.57 | fozzmoo | Hmm. I usually just said unflattering things about them behind their back. |
| 15:58.59 | sargun_screen | i invalidated it |
| 15:59.03 | ^Migs^ | I mean, why wouldn't you do that? |
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| 15:59.54 | sargun_screen | they upgraded with 25k+ (this number was secretive) to add custom filters |
| 16:00.09 | sargun_screen | i bought an ssl cert |
| 16:00.17 | sargun_screen | i broke that |
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| 16:01.19 | sargun_screen | migs: because when a school doesnt respect you, you have no reason to respect them |
| 16:01.28 | ^Migs^ | that's what I'm starting to feel like |
| 16:01.39 | ^Migs^ | I'm actually VOLUNTEERING on the technical committee |
| 16:01.52 | ^Migs^ | you can't make volunteers feel like their opinions and expertise are worthless |
| 16:02.16 | sargun_screen | see, but they respect you a bit |
| 16:03.07 | sargun_screen | they dont call you an idiot or useless to your face |
| 16:03.23 | ^Migs^ | while it may be partially my fault in that I haven't educated them enough or shown them working demos (though I haven't been able to since we don't have the equipment), I've been involved in educational technology for quite a number of years. I know what works better technically than an administrator usually does. I keep up to date on the latest trends. |
| 16:03.32 | ^Migs^ | all that tends to fly out the window when I try to talk to these guys |
| 16:04.28 | sargun_screen | but if you say ?that might not work' they actually listen to you |
| 16:04.53 | ^Migs^ | I could potentially prove that no school ever needs a desktop Windows OS again (with a few exceptions). Not just theoretically, because I know Linux fanbois have been screaming for years no one needs it, but in a very PRACTICAL sense, if I have a Linux desktop that looks like Windows, acts like Windows, feels like Windows, runs all Windows programs, etc. |
| 16:05.25 | ^Migs^ | My boss here at the Weber District would actually be enthusiastic about it, because we're moving heavily in the direction of open source and new technology. But at this charter school, it'll take a lot of leg pulling. |
| 16:05.30 | sargun_screen | and dont say, 'well the guy who we pay 120k a year said it would, he is older, and we pay him more, therefore you are wrong? |
| 16:05.42 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 16:07.40 | sargun_screen | ometimes i?ve felt that the tech director's farts were more intelligent than his words |
| 16:07.48 | ^Migs^ | haha |
| 16:08.04 | sargun_screen | gtgt brb |
| 16:08.18 | ^Migs^ | I'm glad our Director of Technology isn't like that. He's very open to everyone's views and respects everyone else's expertise |
| 16:09.40 | Supaplex | heh |
| 16:13.03 | ^Migs^ | best boss I've ever worked for, actually :) |
| 16:17.27 | ^Migs^ | maybe I'm dumb, but what's the benefit of using Synergy? |
| 16:18.17 | levi | ^Migs^: You can control multiple computers from they same keyboard/mouse, including cut/paste between them. |
| 16:18.40 | levi | If that doesn't immediately sound useful, I'm not sure what I could say that would convince you that it is so. |
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| 16:18.45 | RyanE | including machines of differing OS'es. Without a keyboard/mouse switch |
| 16:19.41 | ^Migs^ | OH |
| 16:19.45 | ^Migs^ | cut and paste. Didn't realize that. |
| 16:20.00 | ^Migs^ | okay, nice |
| 16:20.36 | ^Migs^ | so as a bad analogy, it would be kind of being able to VNC into them from a single PC? |
| 16:20.51 | ^Migs^ | s/kind of/kind of like/ |
| 16:21.16 | RyanE | no, not really. Each computer has it's own monitor (or multiple monitors). |
| 16:21.33 | dmdavis | so you get a multi-monitor setup, with different os's |
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| 16:22.04 | RyanE | just the keyboard and mouse are shared. You setup synergy to know what the orientation of the computers is (left/right/up/down), and when you move your mouse off of one screen, it shows up on the next. |
| 16:22.15 | ^Migs^ | okay |
| 16:22.21 | ^Migs^ | very cool |
| 16:22.29 | RyanE | using it now... :) |
| 16:22.56 | ^Migs^ | I'm going to set up room with wall-to-perpendicular-wall monitors so I can move my mouse an entire 360-degrees around the room |
| 16:22.56 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> Off Topic and Beyond | http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | Expand your vocabulary: Hillary is not evil, she is disingenuous. |
| 16:23.38 | levi | ^Migs^: Anyway, after reading scrollback, I should point out that you can install VNC on a Mac. |
| 16:24.03 | ^Migs^ | not quite what I'd be looking for though |
| 16:24.20 | ^Migs^ | especially since I'd want a Mac terminal server. I'm clueless about Macs so I didn't even know if a viable solution exists. |
| 16:24.23 | sontek | Silly Mac user, remote administration is for realy computers! |
| 16:24.43 | sontek | s/realy/real/ |
| 16:25.01 | levi | sontek: Macs have a remote desktop feature, too. |
| 16:25.14 | ^Migs^ | but CAN it connect from Linux? |
| 16:25.16 | levi | But it's more for remote administration than it is for terminal services. |
| 16:25.22 | ^Migs^ | like rdesktop for Mac |
| 16:25.24 | ^Migs^ | oh, okay |
| 16:25.30 | ^Migs^ | no good then |
| 16:25.46 | ^Migs^ | I know there's Mac to PC |
| 16:25.48 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 16:26.38 | levi | Apparently ARD2 uses VNC as the protocol. |
| 16:27.06 | ^Migs^ | Could actually just buy the Macs later on then use Fink or something to load Linux apps in it |
| 16:27.07 | levi | And as of Oct 18, 2007, includes support for 3rd party VNC clients and servers. |
| 16:27.25 | levi | So, yes, you could connect to them remotely via Linux. |
| 16:27.35 | ^Migs^ | all at the same time? |
| 16:27.58 | levi | Well, why not? |
| 16:28.25 | levi | But again, this is a remote administration thing, not a terminal services thing. |
| 16:29.03 | levi | So you don't get a unique login when you connect, you connect to the active desktop session, AFAICT. |
| 16:29.21 | ^Migs^ | okay |
| 16:29.25 | ^Migs^ | well, I was just wondering anyway |
| 16:32.17 | Sargun | uh |
| 16:32.32 | Sargun | ^Migs^, how many active windows sessions will you have? |
| 16:37.12 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@66.7.122.158) |
| 16:37.12 | ibot | dances the tango with fozzmoo |
| 16:37.12 | ^Migs^ | worst case scenario, assuming we do use terminal services for employees too, probably around 80 |
| 16:37.19 | ^Migs^ | that's a very high estimate, though |
| 16:37.29 | ^Migs^ | too high |
| 16:37.31 | ^Migs^ | probably more like 40 |
| 16:38.01 | ^Migs^ | we're mainly just using the Windows terminal server as a backup. We may not even need it, to be honest |
| 16:38.15 | ^Migs^ | Photoshop works fine on WINE. So does Acrobat, I think. |
| 16:38.35 | ^Migs^ | they wouldn't be able to tell the difference |
| 16:39.03 | ^Migs^ | and we're still only having to buy one or two licenses, since they'll run on the LTSP server |
| 16:39.14 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 16:39.14 | ibot | dances the fozzmoo with elg |
| 16:39.22 | ^Migs^ | I guess if we do get around 80, we'd need another Windows server |
| 16:39.40 | Sargun | why not just buy 40 copies of windows XP |
| 16:39.41 | ^Migs^ | we're buying our servers off Newegg, and only going up to 8GB quad-cores |
| 16:39.43 | *** join/#utah markl_ (n=mark@c-24-10-221-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 16:39.50 | Sargun | and virtualize them at will |
| 16:39.50 | ^Migs^ | we may have to, for the employees |
| 16:39.56 | Sargun | Then you'll get the slow booting on Windows. |
| 16:39.58 | ^Migs^ | which would work fine |
| 16:40.00 | ^Migs^ | but costs $4000 |
| 16:40.02 | Sargun | and the nasty windows crashing |
| 16:40.03 | Sargun | etc. |
| 16:40.07 | ^Migs^ | our start-up budget is only $30,000 |
| 16:40.17 | Sargun | yeah |
| 16:40.18 | ^Migs^ | and we're already pushing it close. |
| 16:40.32 | ^Migs^ | not to mention we may have to purchase a ton of laptops, since we're not having a computer lab |
| 16:40.33 | Sargun | Get your servers on lease |
| 16:40.40 | ^Migs^ | I'd like to get ahold of a demo Eee |
| 16:40.46 | ^Migs^ | that's what I'm thinking, too |
| 16:41.02 | ^Migs^ | it looks like we might actually buy from Dell instead. If we do, I'm going to look at lease options |
| 16:41.13 | ^Migs^ | that's what we do here in the school district. How much do you actually save by doing that? |
| 16:41.18 | Sargun | Dell doesn't have educational discounts |
| 16:41.22 | ^Migs^ | yeah they do |
| 16:41.26 | Sargun | You don't save in the long run too much |
| 16:41.26 | ^Migs^ | it's only around 15-20% |
| 16:41.38 | ^Migs^ | then what's the advantage of leasing |
| 16:41.58 | Sargun | you spread out your costs over more time |
| 16:41.59 | ^Migs^ | even with their discount, an equivalent server from Dell compared to one we're building from Newegg, is still more than double the cost. |
| 16:42.15 | ^Migs^ | so you pay a monthly fee or something? |
| 16:42.26 | ^Migs^ | or yearly? |
| 16:42.35 | ^Migs^ | I guess that's the definition of leasing, nm |
| 16:43.58 | ^Migs^ | I don't mind buying from Dell or HP (preferably Dell) but I just don't see how we're going to have the budget to do it |
| 16:44.13 | ^Migs^ | we might also be setting up an Asterisk server, and that may end up coming out of our budget. I'm hoping not, though. |
| 16:44.34 | ^Migs^ | the principal was surprisingly open to that. Maybe because we just used the phrase "free phone system" |
| 16:45.53 | ^Migs^ | maybe once we're all set up, you could try to hack our system |
| 16:46.03 | ^Migs^ | I'd like to see how good our security is |
| 16:47.43 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@71-35-238-223.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 16:48.41 | Sargun | Uh, yeah |
| 16:49.00 | ^Migs^ | ;) |
| 16:49.01 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (n=develope@66.209.66.160) |
| 16:49.02 | Sargun | IP phones aren't free |
| 16:49.13 | ^Migs^ | we have to buy phones anyway |
| 16:49.20 | ^Migs^ | and intercoms, etc. |
| 16:49.21 | Sargun | I'm sure you could get Polycom & Cisco to get you some cheap ones |
| 16:49.26 | Sargun | Phones are like $200 a piece |
| 16:49.29 | ^Migs^ | right |
| 16:49.44 | ^Migs^ | traditional conferencing phones aren't much less |
| 16:50.10 | ^Migs^ | we'd also save money if we didn't have to drop phone lines throughout the building |
| 16:51.21 | Sargun | Well how are you going to do your switching network |
| 16:51.28 | Sargun | How many buildings? |
| 16:51.31 | ^Migs^ | one |
| 16:51.46 | Sargun | Floors? |
| 16:51.51 | ^Migs^ | I'd have to ask my cousin. He's the one mainly doing the networking stuff |
| 16:52.06 | ^Migs^ | one floor + a mezzanine where the servers will be |
| 16:52.10 | Sargun | What kinda connection are they getting? |
| 16:52.14 | ^Migs^ | I believe a T3 |
| 16:52.25 | Sargun | meh. |
| 16:52.41 | ^Migs^ | not sure what UEN would provide to us, though |
| 16:54.33 | ^Migs^ | bad idea? |
| 16:54.47 | ^Migs^ | I can't see outgoing lines using up too much of that |
| 16:55.01 | Sargun | You guys probably don't need a T3 |
| 16:55.06 | ^Migs^ | the only phones are going to be in the media center and the office. I don't know if the teachers will even need a phone. |
| 16:55.31 | ^Migs^ | I think for a school of our size (450 students) that's generally what they would provide |
| 16:55.39 | ^Migs^ | I can't remember what they give to comparable junior highs in our district |
| 16:56.05 | ^Migs^ | I could ask, but, meh |
| 17:01.08 | Sargun | yeah |
| 17:01.08 | Sargun | neat |
| 17:01.21 | ^Migs^ | this is boring stuff |
| 17:05.57 | Sargun | networking iS? |
| 17:06.33 | ^Migs^ | I guess so. I'm just getting bored talking about this. :) |
| 17:06.40 | Sargun | Weird. |
| 17:06.44 | Sargun | you are one weird man |
| 17:06.52 | Sargun | :-P |
| 17:12.17 | *** join/#utah mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 17:13.23 | *** join/#utah Nastya|away (n=Nastya_@shelest.vpn.mbit.ru) |
| 17:13.48 | ^Migs^ | wtf no I'm not |
| 17:14.38 | mgeary | hey folks |
| 17:14.49 | Sargun | hey mgeary |
| 17:15.25 | mgeary | my company is hiring an entry-to-mid level PHP (and ideally Flash) developer. Do i assume correctly there's some plug-centric place to post this information? |
| 17:17.35 | Sargun | PHP!? |
| 17:18.17 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=shnocksh@66-240-25-49.isp.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 17:18.51 | mgeary | well, Sargun, if you came on board, we'd let you work in .NET, but yeah, all others would have to know PHP ;) |
| 17:23.35 | mgeary | so... does such a place exist? |
| 17:23.43 | mgeary | to post job/contact info? |
| 17:24.25 | RyanE | uphpu would be the right list. I think there's a uphpu-jobs list. |
| 17:24.32 | mgeary | already done that |
| 17:24.41 | mgeary | ah well |
| 17:30.47 | fozzmoo | Sargun: We've trained you well. |
| 17:32.34 | Sargun | You have!? |
| 17:34.02 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=shnocksh@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 17:35.05 | goozbach | anyone have suggestions for load testing software? |
| 17:35.21 | goozbach | something which generates web page hits |
| 17:35.25 | goozbach | and LOTS of them. |
| 17:35.29 | sjansen | digg? |
| 17:36.08 | mgeary | well, there's always ab |
| 17:36.46 | mgeary | twill is really cool. you could write a bunch of twill scripts to emulate realistic user activity and launch a ton of them concurrently... |
| 17:37.03 | mgeary | but there's no analysis component |
| 17:37.16 | Lakshmi | HEY EVERYONE |
| 17:37.50 | goozbach | I just need to generate somewhere in the neigbourhood of 900 000 to 1 Million requests/hour |
| 17:38.52 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Nekkid wimmmin! |
| 17:39.39 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: hi |
| 17:40.27 | Lakshmi | dmdavis sup? |
| 17:40.54 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: nothing much. just dealing with lots of random projects at work, getting in the way of the bigger, more interesting projects :) |
| 17:41.16 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: you? |
| 17:41.51 | *** join/#utah ^Migs^ (n=Migs@205.122.50.234) |
| 17:42.05 | goozbach | fozzmoo: we've already got that in production |
| 17:42.36 | goozbach | I need something that generates hits without the public being involved. |
| 17:42.50 | fozzmoo | WWW::Mechanize? |
| 17:43.35 | neybar | mechanize in a fork bomb? |
| 17:45.00 | goozbach | you may think I'm kidding about having nekkid women in production... |
| 17:45.15 | goozbach | I am not! http://kissrocks.com/babeofweek/ 100% not safe for work |
| 17:45.23 | brac | [kissrocks.com: Babe Of The Week |
| 17:45.23 | brac | Babe of the Week] |
| 17:45.30 | goozbach | unless your job is to keep that site running |
| 17:45.38 | Lakshmi | dmdavis eating a bagel before class |
| 17:46.20 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: nice. what class? |
| 17:46.42 | Lakshmi | dmdavis humanities and rise of early christianity |
| 17:46.47 | *** join/#utah nobel1 (n=jared@nat/yahoo/x-1ce630b2fcb2d341) |
| 17:46.49 | Jayce^ | goozbach, 'ab' (apache bench) |
| 17:47.05 | goozbach | Jayce^: see that twitter I just sent you? |
| 17:47.19 | Jayce^ | yeah, I did it direct to windley.. |
| 17:47.26 | Jayce^ | if you check use.perl, there is some info on there |
| 17:47.30 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: huh, that sounds interesting. Is it a good class? |
| 17:47.32 | Jayce^ | posted back on the 24th |
| 17:47.44 | Jayce^ | romney is out :( |
| 17:47.51 | Lakshmi | dmdavis not really, its not my favorate, so what projects are you working on? |
| 17:48.23 | nobel1 | I was just barely starting to get used to Romney. Stinks he's out. |
| 17:48.52 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: making a Mac build of our software, figuring out why our x86 build doesn't work on a specific i-series of IBM laptop, writing a white paper about our product, and making some customized changes for a client |
| 17:49.30 | dmdavis | /Mac/PPC/ |
| 17:49.49 | Lakshmi | dmdavis wow, lotsa projects at once, is it for work or your personal fun? |
| 17:49.54 | goozbach | fozzmoo: you should twitter |
| 17:50.06 | Lakshmi | fozzmoo i agree |
| 17:50.14 | fozzmoo | "Pooping. Grrr. Need to eat more fruit." |
| 17:50.17 | dmdavis | work. and those are the projects that I have to finish so I can get to my other projcets |
| 17:53.10 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: but, I'll be going back to school next year, so I'll be done with dealing with this :) |
| 17:53.39 | findlay | my gmail spams have really gone down over the past several weeks |
| 17:53.54 | Lakshmi | dmdavis sweet. but how is school more fun than a buncha projects? |
| 17:54.27 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: at school I get to a) learn, and b) do research that hopefully I feel is more valuable than work projects |
| 17:55.13 | Lakshmi | dmdavis thats pretty cool. yeah i guess if you get to study what you like |
| 17:55.21 | Lakshmi | dmdavis will you be going back to grad school? |
| 17:55.26 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 17:55.29 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: yep. just got accepted |
| 17:55.37 | findlay | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method |
| 17:55.42 | findlay | that's a good article |
| 17:55.45 | Lakshmi | dmdavis congratulations. which school can i ask? |
| 17:55.48 | findlay | well written |
| 17:56.18 | elg | dmdavis: w00t |
| 17:56.25 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: I've been accepted to University of Virginia, most likely Virginia Tech, and I'm waiting to hear form Ohio State and Cornell. Don't know where I'll go yet, but I'm leaning toward UVa |
| 17:56.29 | dmdavis | elg: :) thanks |
| 17:57.14 | Lakshmi | dmdavis ah that sounds cool, you should come to california :P |
| 17:57.41 | levi | dmdavis: I used to live right next to UVa. |
| 17:57.52 | levi | dmdavis: It's a very nice place. |
| 17:58.02 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: :) not authorized to apply west of the mississippi. my wife wants to go east :) |
| 17:58.18 | dmdavis | levi: yeah, I'm tempted by that one, because it's beautiful. but expensive |
| 17:58.41 | Lakshmi | dmdavis new york then! |
| 17:58.56 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: that's where I'm from. want to try somewhere different |
| 17:59.35 | Lakshmi | dmdavis lucky :). but how much more east can you go from NY? |
| 18:00.02 | levi | Um, if UVa is expensive, I don't think NY will be any cheaper. |
| 18:00.06 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: not more east, just different east. Virginia, for example |
| 18:00.16 | dmdavis | levi: I'm leaning toward VT |
| 18:00.48 | levi | dmdavis: I got on the Metro right next to VT, and the area seemed pretty nice. ;) |
| 18:00.50 | Lakshmi | dmdavis ah i see, well virginia is pretty.. |
| 18:01.39 | levi | I graduated from high school when I lived in Charlottesville. |
| 18:01.46 | mgeary | C-ville is awesome |
| 18:02.25 | levi | Yeah, too bad I wouldn't be able to afford to live in my old neighborhood. :/ |
| 18:02.37 | dmdavis | levi: oh cool, I'm looking forward to living there |
| 18:02.55 | dmdavis | levi: housing in blacksburg is pretty affordable, luckily for me |
| 18:03.00 | levi | dmdavis: Just make sure you have air conditioning and a dehumidifier. :) |
| 18:03.38 | dmdavis | levi: I'm looking forward to the humidity. too dry here :) |
| 18:03.47 | findlay | whatever |
| 18:03.50 | dmdavis | levi: and my wife will demand air conditioning :) |
| 18:03.58 | findlay | the mountains in the east have nothing on the Rockies |
| 18:04.15 | dmdavis | findlay: that is true. I'll miss these mountains |
| 18:04.17 | levi | findlay: True, but the 'forests' here have nothing on the trees back east. |
| 18:04.34 | dmdavis | levi: just what I was going to say |
| 18:04.45 | levi | Even if there were mountains, you wouldn't be able to see them because of all the trees. :) |
| 18:05.18 | findlay | whatever, trees are just a confirmation that the rainfall in the area is higher than in Utah |
| 18:05.31 | *** part/#utah mgeary (n=mgeary@166.70.44.49) |
| 18:05.36 | levi | They are also very nice to look at. |
| 18:05.49 | dmdavis | findlay: ah, I miss rain and gray skies. (seriously) |
| 18:06.03 | levi | Mountains here are just a confirmation that the geological activity was more recent! |
| 18:06.03 | findlay | levi: some areas of the mountains in the west are heavily wooded |
| 18:06.24 | fozzmoo | http://thepage.time.com/transcript-of-romneys-speech-withdrawing-from-the-race/ |
| 18:06.28 | findlay | a forest no matter where it is constitutes the most thirsty biome anyway |
| 18:06.29 | dmdavis | findlay: Utah doesn't know the meaning of "heavily wooded" |
| 18:07.02 | levi | findlay: Have you been to Virginia? |
| 18:07.06 | findlay | the fact that trees survive in the mountains even in Utah and Arizona says something about the amount of precip in the higher elevations amidst the desert floors |
| 18:07.19 | findlay | dmdavis: true |
| 18:07.28 | Lakshmi | dmdavis ttyl |
| 18:07.35 | dmdavis | Lakshmi: have fun in class |
| 18:07.39 | findlay | levi: nope |
| 18:07.44 | *** part/#utah nobel1 (n=jared@nat/yahoo/x-1ce630b2fcb2d341) |
| 18:08.07 | levi | findlay: I lived there. It's beautiful. |
| 18:08.07 | dmdavis | I was born in CT. there, we have some great forests |
| 18:08.11 | Wegg | Rommey is quitting! |
| 18:08.33 | findlay | oh sure, your concept of beauty is just skewed by having lived there |
| 18:08.59 | levi | findlay: Well, I've obviously lived *here*, too. |
| 18:09.06 | findlay | heh |
| 18:09.09 | dmdavis | findlay: beauty is arbitrary and capricious. |
| 18:09.09 | levi | findlay: So I am relatively unbiased, while you are not. |
| 18:09.32 | levi | I think it's pretty here, too, at least next to the mountains. |
| 18:09.44 | levi | But certainly not the same kind of pretty. |
| 18:10.01 | findlay | levi: someday I'll live in Virginia, and then I'll have no more bias |
| 18:10.59 | dmdavis | findlay: you'll probably have to get over the claustrophobia, first. It's disconcerting, when you're used to being able to see hundreds of miles, to only be able to see that many feet. |
| 18:11.19 | levi | I also love the sense of history you get back east. There's architecture and whatnot going back hundreds of years. |
| 18:11.36 | dmdavis | levi: you go see monticello? |
| 18:11.44 | levi | dmdavis: Yeah, it's pretty cool. |
| 18:11.47 | dmdavis | levi: I went there while visiting charlottesville. very cool place |
| 18:12.00 | levi | I didn't get a chance to go last time I was there, unfortunately. |
| 18:12.06 | findlay | dmdavis: my old apartment was right next to the Provo river and I think it might have simulated the effect |
| 18:12.42 | levi | findlay: Yeah, but imagine driving down a highway and *still* not being able to see anything. |
| 18:12.45 | dmdavis | findlay: somewhat... :) |
| 18:13.05 | dmdavis | imagine driving through a town, and _only_ seeing forest |
| 18:13.20 | levi | Although the East is far more densely populated, it seems less dense because the forests block out everything. |
| 18:14.50 | findlay | dmdavis: that sounds depressing |
| 18:15.15 | findlay | s/dmdavis/levi/ |
| 18:15.20 | levi | findlay: It's way less depressing than someplace like LA, where it's densely populated and you have to see all of it. |
| 18:15.52 | dmdavis | findlay: it allows you to have a sense of privacy and nature, but still have the people/culture |
| 18:17.04 | levi | findlay: You remind me of the girls I knew at BYU who thought that the area around Pocatello was the most beautiful place on the earth. |
| 18:17.14 | RyanE | eww |
| 18:17.21 | levi | RyanE: No kidding. |
| 18:17.29 | findlay | levi: I'm sure you get the same sensation in New York or Boston |
| 18:17.37 | RyanE | Pokey is a dump, nature-wise speaking. |
| 18:18.12 | levi | findlay: Depends on how close to the city you are. |
| 18:18.16 | findlay | levi: have I said anything even faintly suggesting that Pocatello is the most beautiful place on earth? |
| 18:18.28 | vontrapp | it is? |
| 18:18.35 | levi | findlay: No, you're just refusing to believe that Virginia could possibly be beautiful. |
| 18:18.36 | findlay | vontrapp: sure is |
| 18:18.37 | findlay | oops |
| 18:18.51 | findlay | well, there you have me |
| 18:18.55 | findlay | I'm a doubter |
| 18:18.58 | findlay | hehehe |
| 18:19.26 | levi | findlay: You're provincial! |
| 18:19.40 | findlay | aw :-) |
| 18:20.13 | levi | (that's not a good thing) |
| 18:20.18 | RyanE | I used to think Utah was green until I served my mission in Brazil. There's green, and then there's GREEN. |
| 18:20.22 | findlay | can any good appreciation or sense of beauty possibly come out of the provinces? |
| 18:20.56 | dmdavis | my wife used to think the east coast was green, until she went to Ireland |
| 18:21.22 | Jayce^ | RyanE, nah, my mission down there was my first experience with the plains :) looked like southern LA or around here in UT in most of my areas |
| 18:21.25 | findlay | clorophyll-A is green |
| 18:21.40 | levi | findlay: I meant provincial in the sense of 'a person of local or restricted interests or outlook' |
| 18:22.24 | findlay | levi: if it gives you any comfort, as soon as I have my bachelor's degree I'll likely never live in this state again |
| 18:22.30 | levi | The pacific northwest is fairly green. Even the rocks and tree trunks are green. ;) |
| 18:22.52 | levi | findlay: We'll see how your attitudes change then! :) |
| 18:23.00 | sjansen | If the Republicans offer McCain Huckabee, I am _so_ voting Obama. |
| 18:23.10 | dmdavis | findlay: I felt the same way. Now, I've had my bachelors for 5 years, and I'm dreading leaving the mountains :) |
| 18:23.12 | findlay | levi: you mean, my feigned attitude, of course :) |
| 18:23.36 | levi | sjansen: No kidding. |
| 18:23.49 | herlo | sjansen: I'm voting for Obama anyway. Because the republicans have little chance of winning after the Bush disaster |
| 18:23.55 | levi | sjansen: Maybe McCain will pick an entirely different running mate, though. |
| 18:24.03 | sjansen | McCain Obama is a real race. But no way no how am I voting any ticket with Huckabee. |
| 18:24.11 | findlay | dmdavis: in my field there doesn't seem to be much choice in the matter |
| 18:24.12 | RyanE | I sure hope McCain doesn't pick Huck. |
| 18:24.13 | vontrapp | levi: mccain is the problem, not who he runs with |
| 18:24.18 | dmdavis | findlay: what field is that? |
| 18:24.19 | findlay | you go to the school that offers the degree |
| 18:24.27 | findlay | dmdavis: HEP-TH |
| 18:24.28 | RyanE | McCain is one problem, adding Huckabee is compounding the problem. |
| 18:24.28 | levi | vontrapp: Not in sjansen's mind, apparently. |
| 18:24.31 | dmdavis | findlay: and what schools are you considering? |
| 18:24.43 | herlo | sjansen: why not Huckabee |
| 18:24.51 | findlay | dmdavis: high energy physics, theoretical |
| 18:25.01 | dmdavis | findlay: yep, just looked that up :) |
| 18:26.24 | dmdavis | findlay: so where do you want to go for grad school? |
| 18:26.25 | findlay | dmdavis: ASU, Michigan State. There are probably others. I haven't done much research yet |
| 18:26.38 | levi | sjansen: What about McCain/Huckabee vs. Clinton? |
| 18:26.45 | findlay | ouch |
| 18:30.04 | vontrapp | it's all moot to me, i'm just voting ron paul |
| 18:30.44 | levi | Silly Ronulans. |
| 18:30.59 | vontrapp | so how many of you whiners actually went out and voted tuesday? |
| 18:31.27 | levi | Have you heard me whine? |
| 18:31.42 | vontrapp | if you haven't then you wouldn't be a whiner |
| 18:34.01 | levi | Hmm, apparently the first production Tesla roadster rolled out this month. |
| 18:34.49 | findlay | nice |
| 18:35.05 | RyanE | ooh. If I were filthy rich, I'd buy one. |
| 18:35.11 | findlay | you going to get one levi? :) |
| 18:37.03 | vontrapp | looks really cozy in one of those |
| 18:37.09 | vontrapp | good date car |
| 18:41.44 | Kemotaha | vontrapp: I voted |
| 18:42.12 | Kemotaha | So I can second Levi: Sill Ronulans |
| 18:42.14 | findlay | for Tesla? |
| 18:42.34 | vontrapp | what's silly about it? |
| 18:42.40 | findlay | do you know how difficult it is to sustain a multi-Tesla magnetic field? |
| 18:42.42 | vontrapp | Kemotaha: and good job on voting |
| 18:44.11 | ^Migs^ | Romney just quit :( |
| 18:44.57 | Jayce^ | ^Migs^, you're late |
| 18:45.13 | vontrapp | he did? |
| 18:45.26 | *** part/#utah Nastya|away (n=Nastya_@shelest.vpn.mbit.ru) |
| 18:45.27 | Kemotaha | vontrapp: It is silly to think he has a hope of winning. |
| 18:45.45 | vontrapp | it's silly to think he doesn't |
| 18:45.49 | ^Migs^ | wow, I am late |
| 18:45.54 | vontrapp | because it doesn't matter what his chances are |
| 18:46.01 | Sargun | Who? |
| 18:46.02 | vontrapp | it matters what you THINK his chances are |
| 18:46.16 | ^Migs^ | looks like I'm voting Democrat now |
| 18:46.21 | Sargun | ^Migs^, obama. |
| 18:46.26 | Wegg | When I went around knocking on doors in support of Ron Paul. . . everyone said they'd support Ron if Mitt wasn't running. |
| 18:46.31 | vontrapp | and since that's completely arbitrary, you have to just throw it out the window and vote what you believe |
| 18:46.31 | Wegg | This. . . totally changes everything. |
| 18:46.34 | ^Migs^ | I actually hope Obama gets it, but I don't think he will |
| 18:47.18 | ^Migs^ | McCain doesn't have plans to do crap about anything |
| 18:47.26 | mrpull | is there a box/button on the ballot to choose anyone but a bush or clinton? |
| 18:47.42 | ^Migs^ | at least the Democrats claim they do |
| 18:47.51 | ^Migs^ | he has nothing on education, nothing on health card |
| 18:47.54 | ^Migs^ | his only plan is to open all our borders |
| 18:47.57 | neybar | at this poing I think your best bet is a write in. |
| 18:49.17 | findlay | nope |
| 18:49.28 | findlay | no options but what the ballot says |
| 18:49.39 | findlay | and Diebold will make sure that they get it wrong :) |
| 18:49.53 | findlay | yay for election theater! |
| 18:50.02 | ^Migs^ | I say good for Romney. This country doesn't deserve him. |
| 18:50.12 | ^Migs^ | he should just go back to his family and keep making billions. |
| 18:50.18 | vontrapp | if you want to talk about wasted votes then, how about voting for someone who has the conviction to keep in the race no matter what? |
| 18:50.19 | Jayce^ | well, bowing out now, there is a chance he'll get offered a VP type spot.. |
| 18:50.25 | Jayce^ | or higher secretary |
| 18:50.50 | Jayce^ | mccain will probably be required to offer something higher, to buy out the conservatives |
| 18:51.35 | vontrapp | i don't think most romney supporters are going to like a union with mccain |
| 18:51.46 | vontrapp | i don't think romney would do it either |
| 18:51.51 | Jayce^ | no, many won't, but they'll see it as a lesser |
| 18:51.54 | vontrapp | but maybe... |
| 18:51.55 | Jayce^ | I think he would |
| 18:52.00 | ^Migs^ | how did it come to this? McCain vs. Hillary. The two WORST possible candidates. |
| 18:52.06 | Jayce^ | especially if he wants to leverage this for a future run |
| 18:52.24 | ^Migs^ | and it won't do any good to say "I TOLD YOU SO!" to everyone in 2 years when this country goes to hell |
| 18:52.27 | Jayce^ | ^Migs^, don't count out obama, he's catching up in delegates (even super's) |
| 18:52.31 | findlay | ~blame diebold |
| 18:52.32 | ibot | ACTION blames diebold (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 18:52.32 | vontrapp | oh that's right, silly me, he doesn't actually care about anything but winning and the politics of it all |
| 18:52.33 | ^Migs^ | Obama has my vote |
| 18:52.44 | dataw0lf | Obama is probably going to take most of all the states left |
| 18:52.48 | dataw0lf | I wouldn't count him out at all |
| 18:52.49 | Jayce^ | and he's making tons of money, Hillary is making personal loans to the campaign because it's bankrupt |
| 18:52.51 | Tene | I think it might be kind of fun if we can get the entire country to collapse. |
| 18:52.53 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 18:52.59 | Kemotaha | Jayce^: I think Obama will surge now that Romney is out of the race |
| 18:53.01 | ^Migs^ | then start a new, proper society |
| 18:53.07 | Jayce^ | Kemotaha, possibly |
| 18:53.10 | Kemotaha | you will get a lot of conseratives that will vote for him |
| 18:53.16 | findlay | Tene: yeah. I've been waiting for anarchy for a long time |
| 18:53.19 | Tene | Nah, we want a chaotic urban wasteland, just like in the movies! |
| 18:53.20 | ^Migs^ | I think you're right |
| 18:53.40 | tensai | Tene: fun for movies. not so much for real life. |
| 18:53.49 | Tene | tensai: only because you don't have enough guns. |
| 18:53.49 | ^Migs^ | I mean, we can either have McCain just sit there and do nothing, or have a Democrat who might actually make some improvements to the country. At least someone who tries. |
| 18:54.33 | ^Migs^ | isn't McCain going to ban guns or something? |
| 18:54.38 | RyanE | There are times I think 'sitting there and doing nothing' would be the perfect thing for the president to do. |
| 18:54.48 | ^Migs^ | I actually agree. But not now. |
| 18:55.01 | vontrapp | ^Migs^: it came to this because nobody has the courage to vote for the REAL candidate, instead they sit there conjecturing about politics and who CAN win and call the real patriots silly ronulans |
| 18:55.09 | RyanE | ok, figure out how to get us out of Iraq, *then* sit around and do nothing. |
| 18:55.10 | Jayce^ | ^Migs^, but most of the "improvements" aren't seen as such by most people |
| 18:55.16 | ^Migs^ | RyanE: Right. |
| 18:55.22 | ^Migs^ | those people's opinions are clearly wrong. :) |
| 18:55.37 | ^Migs^ | this world would be a much better place if everyone just listened to me. |
| 18:55.41 | Tene | So, I don't really know much about Ron Paul. |
| 18:55.47 | Tene | What's so great about him? |
| 18:55.52 | findlay | ^Migs^ 4 prez |
| 18:55.58 | vontrapp | Tene: strict constitutionalist, for one |
| 18:56.03 | ^Migs^ | wow, even I think that's a bad idea, findlay |
| 18:56.08 | vontrapp | small government, less debt/spending |
| 18:56.14 | rsimpkins | Go hillary go. |
| 18:56.17 | vontrapp | no wars that we shouldn't be in |
| 18:56.17 | ^Migs^ | unless you want to usher in that urban wasteland a lot faster |
| 18:56.17 | rsimpkins | billary |
| 18:56.18 | findlay | excellent |
| 18:56.22 | findlay | that would be fuun |
| 18:56.29 | Tene | ^5 findlay |
| 18:56.30 | findlay | s/u// |
| 18:56.34 | rsimpkins | I predict billary will be presidents again. |
| 18:56.39 | vontrapp | Tene: and state sovereignty |
| 18:56.42 | ^Migs^ | I think Bush should just continue to be president until he dies |
| 18:56.45 | RyanE | rsimpkins: say it aint so. |
| 18:56.46 | ^Migs^ | Castro-style |
| 18:57.01 | rsimpkins | RyanE: I've been right so far. :) |
| 18:57.16 | dataw0lf | I'll make you a bet on that rsimpkins |
| 18:57.17 | rsimpkins | The best we can honestly hope for is a major upset by Obama. |
| 18:57.19 | Tene | Migs: he's kind of getting boring by now... he still acts like he believes he's doing what's Right and Good. |
| 18:57.35 | dataw0lf | I'll in fact put 100 dollars on Obama to win the democratic nomination |
| 18:57.37 | Tene | If we're getting a dictator, I want a real psychopath. Total nutjob. |
| 18:57.59 | vontrapp | ^Migs^: you joke about that, but i wouldn't be totally surprised if that did happen |
| 18:58.16 | Tene | I want to wake up one morning to find federal agents raiding my house looking for pancake batter. |
| 18:58.16 | RyanE | dataw0lf: I'm pretty sure wagering on politics is pretty illegal... |
| 18:58.51 | vontrapp | how is that illegal? |
| 18:59.03 | dataw0lf | shoot, I'm in Nevada, I'll bet on whatever I want. |
| 18:59.13 | findlay | haha |
| 18:59.21 | ^Migs^ | I'm voting communist party |
| 18:59.31 | RyanE | "The Nevada Gaming Control Board does not permit wagering on events that are decided by a vote" |
| 18:59.44 | dataw0lf | isn't that organized wagering? |
| 18:59.51 | dataw0lf | you can make private bets |
| 19:00.02 | RyanE | I suppose. I retract my blanket statement. |
| 19:00.10 | dataw0lf | if the thought police try to bust me on that they can get past my home defense system |
| 19:00.16 | dataw0lf | two ferrets and an ar15 |
| 19:00.22 | fozzmoo | Does anyone have vpnc experience? |
| 19:00.45 | Jayce^ | heck with the ar, just give those ferrets a pixie stick.. |
| 19:00.48 | Jayce^ | now that's WMD |
| 19:00.52 | dataw0lf | haha |
| 19:00.58 | dataw0lf | no doubt |
| 19:01.15 | findlay | heh |
| 19:02.06 | Tene | fozzmoo: You gave me a vpnc config file once, does that count? |
| 19:02.14 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 19:04.59 | Sargun | VPNC?! |
| 19:09.36 | fozzmoo | Sargun: open source VPN client for Cisco VPNs |
| 19:11.15 | *** join/#utah nick125_treo (i=upirc@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 19:11.26 | nick125_treo | Sargun: ping |
| 19:11.33 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 19:12.05 | nick125_treo | Sargun: are you around? |
| 19:13.16 | Sargun | nick125_treo, no. |
| 19:13.35 | nick125_treo | well, become around :p |
| 19:13.42 | macnewbold | hopefully this doesn't start any flame wars, but I'd like to ask some mail server questions and solicit some of your expert opinions, if I may |
| 19:13.53 | macnewbold | we're dealing with some problems of back scatter with our mail servers |
| 19:13.59 | nick125_treo | I'm a fan of postfix |
| 19:14.00 | macnewbold | namely, it is sending out bounces |
| 19:14.11 | macnewbold | and barracuda and sometimes spamcop don't like that |
| 19:14.34 | macnewbold | part of the problem apparently is that sendmail doesn't check whether a local user is valid or not before accepting a message |
| 19:14.42 | macnewbold | it accepts it, then if not valid, sends a bounce |
| 19:14.49 | macnewbold | when it should just refuse it in the first place |
| 19:15.41 | macnewbold | does postfix fix that behavior by default? |
| 19:15.52 | jlp_work | macnewbold: postfix has options you can configure to fix that |
| 19:16.16 | macnewbold | anyone here ever tried switching from sendmail to postfix? |
| 19:16.42 | herlo | macnewbold: I just started with postfix, but I'd bet it wouldn't be that hard of a transistion |
| 19:16.51 | herlo | s/stion/tion/g |
| 19:17.11 | herlo | most of the things that work in sendmail, postfix is handling out of the box |
| 19:17.12 | macnewbold | we don't have a terribly complex installation, but we use the access db some, aliases, virtual users, and spamassassin |
| 19:17.21 | herlo | yeah, simple stuff |
| 19:17.29 | macnewbold | k |
| 19:17.34 | jlp_work | macnewbold: postfix should drop in... it even includes a "sendmail" executable |
| 19:17.34 | herlo | aliases work without anything major |
| 19:17.46 | macnewbold | seriously? that's great |
| 19:17.51 | herlo | jlp_work: true, but there's more to postfix |
| 19:17.54 | macnewbold | that's on freebsd, right jlp? |
| 19:17.58 | herlo | more secure |
| 19:17.59 | jlp_work | you will have to do some configuration, of course |
| 19:18.10 | jlp_work | yes, really, on any platform |
| 19:18.13 | herlo | macnewbold: doesn't matter which os, postfix is postfix |
| 19:18.37 | macnewbold | right, but I know jlp knows about the FreeBSD and the postfix port and such |
| 19:18.41 | herlo | the virtual and access might be in a slightly different format |
| 19:18.50 | herlo | oh, I see |
| 19:19.06 | macnewbold | any recommendations on making the transition then? We'll need to keep sendmail working until we've got our postfix ready to roll and reasonably tested. |
| 19:19.22 | herlo | yeah, get it up and running, and its a quick change over in dns |
| 19:19.43 | herlo | maybe even run it as a relay server for a few days to test it with the current sendmail implementation |
| 19:20.05 | herlo | I'd also suggest running them in tandem until you get it perfect |
| 19:20.14 | macnewbold | well, that's part of the problem - I need to get it installed and set up on the same server where the sendmail currently is |
| 19:20.19 | herlo | use the same priority in dns |
| 19:20.25 | macnewbold | there are too many MX records to change on all the domains |
| 19:20.25 | herlo | oh |
| 19:20.32 | macnewbold | so it's got to be a replacement |
| 19:20.42 | herlo | do you have a spare machine? |
| 19:21.05 | macnewbold | yeah, I can do a trial run there, to get my setup right, but then I'll need to do the actual conversion somehow |
| 19:21.09 | herlo | because the thought is, you could change out one, without major problems |
| 19:21.18 | herlo | do you have multiple sendmail servers now? |
| 19:21.19 | jlp_work | macnewbold: you can install it in parallel, I believe. it will install into /usr/local |
| 19:21.21 | macnewbold | but there's a lot more on this server |
| 19:21.37 | macnewbold | that sounds like a good idea, jlp_work |
| 19:21.47 | herlo | jlp_work: because they work on port 25, that'd be the only concern |
| 19:21.48 | jlp_work | definitely use a test server, first |
| 19:22.11 | jlp_work | yeah, you can modify master.cf to have postfix's smtpd come up on a different port if you want to |
| 19:22.19 | herlo | that's why I asked if you already have two mail servers, if so, its an easy switch in the dns |
| 19:22.37 | herlo | jlp_work: true, but what mail server do you know that will work with one *not* on 25? |
| 19:22.48 | jlp_work | herlo: well, for testing |
| 19:22.56 | herlo | :) okay |
| 19:22.57 | jlp_work | herlo: the "telnet" mail client is quite handy :-) |
| 19:23.01 | herlo | right |
| 19:23.04 | herlo | done that a bunch |
| 19:23.12 | herlo | telnet is a perfect tool |
| 19:23.17 | herlo | for mail testing |
| 19:23.24 | herlo | at least until you get ssl/tls working |
| 19:23.58 | jlp_work | herlo: then openssl s_client becomes the right tool |
| 19:24.57 | jlp_work | macnewbold: do you have sendmail installed from ports? there is a "CONFLICTS" entry in the postfix makefile that will hose you |
| 19:25.06 | macnewbold | besides spamassassin, we also need smtp auth too |
| 19:25.16 | macnewbold | jlp_work: no, it's using the base sendmail, not the port |
| 19:25.40 | jlp_work | ok, I think you can install the port, then. I never install the base sendmail any more, always go straight to postfix |
| 19:26.02 | Tene | herlo: openssl s_client |
| 19:26.05 | jlp_work | definitely get a test machine in the same configuration as your existing mail server |
| 19:26.08 | herlo | Tene: I know |
| 19:26.21 | Tene | herlo: oh, right. I misread. |
| 19:26.23 | herlo | Tene: or mutt is a good alternative |
| 19:26.57 | herlo | I missed all the good parts nwo because fo that |
| 19:26.59 | herlo | :) |
| 19:28.26 | jlp_work | macnewbold: gotta head for a lunch meeting. catch me later if you run into trouble with it |
| 19:30.55 | macnewbold | thanks jlp_work |
| 19:41.25 | herlo | elg: me too |
| 19:59.52 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 20:03.09 | vontrapp | "we will become the France of the 21st century – still a great nation, but no longer the leader of the world, no longer the superpower" |
| 20:03.19 | vontrapp | there goes mitt talking about how we have to best everyone else again |
| 20:04.06 | vontrapp | call me crazy but that really really bothers me more than almost anything about romney |
| 20:07.56 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: I think Mitt believes that we live in a promised land with a government structured by a constitution that was divinely inspired and has served as a model for the rest of the world. To lose those characteristics is to lose our country to those who would have us live under socialist fascism. |
| 20:08.20 | fozzmoo | And, uhm, I feel the same way. |
| 20:09.51 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: how about being an example and just simple being free and actually FOLLOWING that constitution instead of running around in UNDECLARED, IMMORAL wars? |
| 20:10.15 | vontrapp | if you have to use strength and force to be the light to the world, that's no kind of light at all |
| 20:10.27 | fozzmoo | I don't remember Mitt doing any of those things. |
| 20:10.43 | fozzmoo | The running around bit |
| 20:11.01 | tensai | seeing his comments from his concession speech, I'm really glad he dropped out |
| 20:11.11 | vontrapp | he says "we have to be the super power, the military might" |
| 20:11.44 | tensai | if the dems win then we would be "aiding a surrender to terror" |
| 20:11.47 | vontrapp | he says we have to "win" in iraq |
| 20:11.54 | fozzmoo | We do have to win. |
| 20:12.01 | vontrapp | that's what romney thinks |
| 20:12.04 | JoshH | we already won |
| 20:12.06 | JoshH | mission accomplished |
| 20:12.12 | JoshH | no WMDs, and saddam is gone |
| 20:12.12 | fozzmoo | and a responsible president may not make the same mistake again... |
| 20:12.18 | fozzmoo | but we can't just leave. |
| 20:12.25 | fozzmoo | We have to see it through and accomplish our objectives. |
| 20:12.34 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: what is "winning"? |
| 20:12.43 | JoshH | what exactly are the objectives this week? |
| 20:12.49 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: That, my friend, is a very good question. |
| 20:12.57 | fozzmoo | I think our objective was to topple Saddam. :) |
| 20:12.58 | vontrapp | how do you define winning in a war where there was no clear objective going in in the first place? |
| 20:13.07 | *** join/#utah tuple (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 20:13.07 | ibot | tickles tuple with a rose bush |
| 20:13.14 | fozzmoo | We got rid of Saddam, so there's that. |
| 20:13.21 | fozzmoo | We could have done that and then just left. |
| 20:13.24 | vontrapp | so what are we DOING there? |
| 20:13.33 | tuple | holding up the wall |
| 20:13.38 | fozzmoo | A lot of people would have been happy, but we all know we couldn't just leave Iraq like that... |
| 20:13.39 | vontrapp | we're trying to FORCE people to have democracy |
| 20:13.41 | fozzmoo | not with all that oil! |
| 20:13.48 | vontrapp | that, my friend is an oxymoron |
| 20:14.03 | JoshH | we can't win there unless we annihilate one of the opposing factions, which we won't do |
| 20:14.06 | vontrapp | and we're doing it by propping up military fascists and dictators |
| 20:14.13 | vontrapp | haha, yeah, that's democracy |
| 20:14.18 | JoshH | we can't just force fanatics to become sane |
| 20:14.22 | neybar | that assumes that we toppled Sadam purely to force democracy on the iraqi people |
| 20:14.25 | neybar | that isn't true |
| 20:14.42 | vontrapp | and you're right, the real goal for which the rest is a cover up, is to steal oil, plain and simple |
| 20:14.46 | tuple | we need to get out, but how to do it without making it worse than being in is the question |
| 20:14.57 | JoshH | if we give them a democracy, they will democratically elect an islamic government and become an islamic state |
| 20:15.00 | tuple | and I don't mean they have to have democracy in the end. if they don't want it that's their problem |
| 20:15.06 | neybar | we toppled Sadam, and we happen to know democracy pretty well, so why wouldn't we at least attempt that sort of government |
| 20:15.18 | tensai | JoshH: they're muslims. what's wrong with an islamic state? |
| 20:15.20 | JoshH | they will become an islamic state through democracy or through a civil war |
| 20:15.31 | fozzmoo | If it's true that we did it just for oil, then why don't the left-leaning in the US just say, "Get out of Iraq. We'll let you drill in ANWR."? |
| 20:15.49 | JoshH | tensai: the pro-war people seem to think it's possible to mold Iraq into a freedom loving, western style democracy |
| 20:15.55 | vontrapp | JoshH: THEY ARE ISLAMIC!!!! why can't they be themselves? |
| 20:15.59 | fozzmoo | The left just wants our country to just... die. |
| 20:16.10 | fozzmoo | which is exactly what we'll do if we can't FUEL our economy. |
| 20:16.14 | tensai | JoshH: they're deluding themselves then |
| 20:16.18 | JoshH | i know |
| 20:16.27 | JoshH | i think we're in agreement |
| 20:16.39 | tuple | no, that's not allowed. agreement makes for boring irc |
| 20:16.44 | fozzmoo | We won't win until there's a Wal*Mart and a McDonalds on every corner in Iraq! |
| 20:16.59 | fozzmoo | Right now there's a Target on every corner, and that's not what we're aiming for. |
| 20:17.01 | fozzmoo | (har har har) |
| 20:17.50 | vontrapp | i hate him soo much, he's such a hypocrite |
| 20:17.52 | JoshH | i'm just saying, the "pro-staying the course" people think that if we stay there long enough, and kill enough terrorists, that it will be a free country with a government like ours, which of course is ridiculous, since neither the sunnis and shiites want that |
| 20:17.54 | fozzmoo | wha?! |
| 20:17.56 | tuple | vontrapp steams over everyone |
| 20:17.58 | fozzmoo | He's a hypocrit?! |
| 20:18.19 | tensai | tuple: is he steaming mad at dirt? |
| 20:18.20 | fozzmoo | I mean, you can say he's not libertarian enough for you... but to say he's a hypocrti?! |
| 20:18.35 | vontrapp | he pretends to be so value centered, such a good guy with great character, and he undermines our constitution as much as any other candidate |
| 20:18.43 | fozzmoo | How so? |
| 20:18.50 | tensai | the people at church who love romney because he's a mormon annoy me |
| 20:18.56 | fozzmoo | I mean, he's the most constitutional-minded presidential candidate next to Ron Paul. |
| 20:19.15 | vontrapp | lik you said earlier, "we're a promised land, and we have to be the good guys, the light to the world, the shining example of democracy and freedom" |
| 20:19.18 | tuple | can't claim to be good without being perfect |
| 20:19.30 | vontrapp | then what does he want to do to "be" that? use force and military might |
| 20:19.52 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: he is NOT constitutionally minded! |
| 20:19.55 | vontrapp | far far from it |
| 20:20.01 | fozzmoo | There's a difference between being an economic superpower and having the military might to defend yourself and your interests... and being imperialistic. |
| 20:20.06 | vontrapp | have you READ the constitution? have you listened to him in debates? |
| 20:20.12 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: Yep. |
| 20:20.21 | Jayce^ | vontrapp, of course he didnt', he doesn't agree with you.... :) |
| 20:20.22 | Tene | So, I'm going to hang out at Microsoft this evening. |
| 20:20.38 | fozzmoo | Tene: Don't drink the koolaid. |
| 20:20.43 | Tene | Heh. |
| 20:20.57 | levi | Tene: What part of Microsoft? |
| 20:21.15 | Tene | levi: dunno yet. My uncle is one of the project managers there, and invited me over. |
| 20:21.19 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: I mean, I've been walking around with a copy of The 5000 Year Leap for the last 9 months. |
| 20:21.20 | Tene | building 20, I think |
| 20:21.33 | fozzmoo | So, yeah, I'm up to date on the constitution. |
| 20:21.35 | vontrapp | he wants war as much as mccain, he wants to spend and spend, he wants entitlements, he wants to redistribute wealth |
| 20:21.45 | vontrapp | all this stuff that's illegal under the constitution |
| 20:21.50 | elg | i believe you are misrepresenting him |
| 20:21.57 | Jayce^ | no kidding |
| 20:22.04 | fozzmoo | I don't believe Romney is pro-entitlements or wealth redistribution. |
| 20:22.05 | elg | and since you wouldn't want people misrepresenting ron paul, that's a fine line |
| 20:22.34 | vontrapp | i am not misrepresenting him |
| 20:22.44 | fozzmoo | For example, on health care, Romney believes if there is a need for universal health care (as was stated in MA), then the private sector should provide it, not the govt. |
| 20:22.45 | vontrapp | he is not conservative, he is not constitutionalist, plain and simple |
| 20:23.04 | vontrapp | and romney then should fine everybody that doesn't play along |
| 20:23.05 | Jayce^ | ~lart vontrapp for drinking the kool-aid |
| 20:23.05 | ibot | steals vontrapp's mojo for drinking the kool-aid |
| 20:23.14 | vontrapp | yeah, that's way better than taxes |
| 20:23.42 | vontrapp | romney kool-aid is worse |
| 20:24.38 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: Well, maybe we could agree on one thing: Romney woudl have been a better choice than McPain. |
| 20:24.50 | vontrapp | fozzmoo: there we can agree |
| 20:24.56 | vontrapp | but not by much |
| 20:25.05 | fozzmoo | You wanna argue about it?! |
| 20:25.10 | vontrapp | no |
| 20:25.10 | elg | which brings us back to my depressing american history class |
| 20:25.17 | fozzmoo | Cuz arguing on IRC isn't in my job description. :) |
| 20:25.28 | elg | the odds of getting anyone very far at all from the center are very small |
| 20:25.32 | Jayce^ | elg, sounded a lot like a prof I had once... |
| 20:25.53 | fozzmoo | Unfortunately, the "center" is a lot further left than it used to be. |
| 20:26.08 | Jayce^ | entitlement is why |
| 20:26.13 | elg | yup |
| 20:26.16 | Jayce^ | people dig the freebies |
| 20:26.22 | tensai | the center in this country is far more right than it is in europe |
| 20:26.22 | Jayce^ | s/dig/expect/ |
| 20:26.28 | fozzmoo | Esp. when you've got people like McPain touting himself as the candidate of conservatism. |
| 20:26.42 | elg | and conservatives are less and less about being conservative and more and more about being antiliberal, in all the wrong ways |
| 20:26.46 | fozzmoo | tensai: Yeah- and Europe already has one foot in the lava bath. |
| 20:26.56 | JoshH | how so? |
| 20:27.30 | JoshH | much of europe seems to be doing fine economically |
| 20:27.50 | JoshH | and ahead of us on quality of life issues |
| 20:27.58 | *** join/#utah bbeattie (n=bbeattie@65.48.77.206) |
| 20:28.04 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Europe has embraced political correctness to such a degree, they don't know left/right, up/down, right/wrong anymore. |
| 20:28.07 | vontrapp | the crash of the american economy will drag all others down with it |
| 20:28.19 | Tene | fozzmoo: and what social harms is this causing there? |
| 20:28.23 | JoshH | examples? |
| 20:28.36 | fozzmoo | Hang on. I'm digging up the book I read last year... |
| 20:28.45 | elg | you buried it? |
| 20:28.46 | fozzmoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:28.47 | JoshH | most europeans i've met seem pretty happy |
| 20:28.58 | JoshH | not that that means anything here |
| 20:29.43 | fozzmoo | This book was written by a homosexual who left the US to go to Amsterdam, so he could live his preferred sexual lifestyle without all the stigma he felt in the US. |
| 20:29.59 | fozzmoo | What he discovered, however, was that things weren't quite so... peachy in Europe. |
| 20:30.12 | JoshH | well, from what i understand, some places, like england, are pretty PC when it comes to radical Islam, while places like France are not |
| 20:30.14 | fozzmoo | He gained a remarkable appreciation for the right in the US. |
| 20:30.30 | fozzmoo | Only because the situation is much worse in France. |
| 20:30.58 | elg | what does it have to do with islam? |
| 20:31.05 | JoshH | imo, the biggest problems with england right now are all the new surveillance programs and such, which the republicans are basically trying to duplicate here |
| 20:31.09 | elg | you tease |
| 20:31.42 | fozzmoo | The radical Islam invasion of Europe isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. |
| 20:32.23 | JoshH | what did the guy say was bad about being gay in amsterdam? |
| 20:32.37 | fozzmoo | The problem is that the governing class in Europe have no spine. They feel obligated (by PC) to be accomodating to everyone. They've completely embraced moral relativism. |
| 20:32.45 | tensai | JoshH: nobody bathes |
| 20:33.34 | Tene | fozzmoo: so what's an example of how this is causing harm? You're speaking very abstractly here... |
| 20:33.43 | levi | fozzmoo: And that's fine as long as you're accepting gays, but not muslims? |
| 20:34.01 | fozzmoo | JoshH: The author talked about gays receiving constant harrassment from Islamic immigrants and the govt afraid to do anything about it. |
| 20:34.35 | fozzmoo | levi: That's exactly the point: The govts are more accomodating of an ethnic group that does nothing to acclimate and obey the law. |
| 20:34.52 | JoshH | harrasment from immigrants (which i assume can be easily avoided) is different than harrassment by the government, which is probably a bigger issue here |
| 20:35.03 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 20:35.12 | JoshH | what should the government do, pass a law against being rude to gays? |
| 20:35.15 | levi | fozzmoo: Well, if they were moral absolutists, the government would be harassing him instead of the Muslims. |
| 20:35.20 | fozzmoo | Oh yeah, well McDonalds' coffee is too hot! |
| 20:36.04 | JoshH | people who believe something harass those who believe differently all over the world |
| 20:36.23 | elg | except in irc |
| 20:36.26 | elg | ~harass emcnabb |
| 20:36.27 | JoshH | it's not the government's problem, as long as no rights are being violated |
| 20:36.38 | emcnabb | ~whaleslap elg |
| 20:36.39 | ibot | ACTION beats elg upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 20:37.00 | elg | I'd love to stick around and harass emcnabb, but I'm going to get back to "work" |
| 20:37.07 | vontrapp | JoshH: true, but what about the laws against illegal aliens? |
| 20:37.10 | JoshH | in some ways, the dutch have more liberty than we do, and vice versa |
| 20:37.20 | elg | man these headphones suck |
| 20:37.24 | JoshH | it has nothing to do with morality |
| 20:37.25 | fozzmoo | Anyway, here's the blurb on Amazon about the book... |
| 20:37.31 | fozzmoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:37.31 | levi | elg: You need to get some new ones! |
| 20:37.36 | emcnabb | elg, you started it |
| 20:38.07 | emcnabb | I've had such a busy day that I'm just ready to zonk out |
| 20:38.10 | elg | levi: they're the phones that came with my radio scanner as a bonus |
| 20:38.14 | levi | elg: AKG K271 Studio headphones are really nice. |
| 20:38.26 | elg | they're big, bulky, and as I just learned sound terrible |
| 20:38.35 | elg | I haven't bothered to listen to them in a quiet environ until now |
| 20:38.50 | levi | fozzmoo: So, he continues on the theme that religious fundamentalists hate gays. Surprise! |
| 20:38.51 | rsimpkins | elg: Which scanner do you have? |
| 20:38.53 | elg | so I switched to my light, foldable sennheisers |
| 20:39.06 | elg | they sound better, even though they look like they ought to sound worse :) |
| 20:39.16 | elg | at home I have a nice pair of sennheisers that sound great |
| 20:39.19 | fozzmoo | levi: And that American religious fundamentalist... really aren't so bad afterall. |
| 20:39.46 | JoshH | well, lots of other gays might disagree |
| 20:40.01 | rsimpkins | O_o |
| 20:40.07 | levi | fozzmoo: Your words or his? |
| 20:40.13 | JoshH | there are plenty of happy homos in amsterdam, and suicidal ones in, say, provo |
| 20:40.21 | fozzmoo | I'm paraphrasing, but that's kind of where he goes. |
| 20:40.32 | elg | rsimpkins: pro-84 |
| 20:40.56 | elg | http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Pro-84 |
| 20:41.05 | levi | fozzmoo: Being 'not so bad' in comparison doesn't exactly make something good. |
| 20:41.25 | elg | http://www.radioshack.com/sm-buy-the-pro-84-compact-scanner-and-headphone-bundle-on--pi-2180625.html |
| 20:41.31 | elg | them's the headphones |
| 20:41.39 | elg | they don't even say which ear is right or left :) |
| 20:41.52 | fozzmoo | levi: You're wrong. That's exactly my point! If it's not so bad, it's good. |
| 20:42.02 | elg | they do have nifty independent volume control knobs though. that could come in handy so, much to the dismay of my wife, I'll hang onto them |
| 20:42.05 | JoshH | as long as the radical muslims in europe have to obey the same laws as the rest of the population, i don't see what the big deal is |
| 20:42.17 | levi | fozzmoo: I didn't know you were a moral relatavist! |
| 20:42.19 | JoshH | let them be radical and nutty, as long as they don't hurt anyone |
| 20:42.20 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 20:42.37 | fozzmoo | JoshH: If you read the book, you'll learn that's exactly what is not happening. |
| 20:42.57 | fozzmoo | Honor killings are being looked past because it's seen as religious thing. |
| 20:43.02 | JoshH | so the book claims that radical muslims there are getting away with breaking the law? |
| 20:43.03 | rsimpkins | elg: What I am eyeing - http://www.scannermaster.com/BCD996T_Scanner_p/10-501050.htm |
| 20:43.07 | fozzmoo | JoshH: Yes. |
| 20:43.07 | brac | [Uniden Bearcat BCD996T Police Scanner] |
| 20:43.28 | elg | oh, i'm still here. I need to continue my harassment |
| 20:43.30 | elg | ~lart emcnabb |
| 20:43.30 | ibot | whacks emcnabb with a giant beaver's tail |
| 20:43.43 | JoshH | i find it hard to believe that murders have gone unpunished for PC reasons without a concrete example |
| 20:43.46 | elg | rsimpkins: cool. different leagues :) |
| 20:43.54 | fozzmoo | In fact, he cites examples where people involved in horrific crimes are actually held up by the liberal elite as heroes or something. |
| 20:44.12 | tensai | elg: and that's the one you use to spy on aircraft? |
| 20:44.17 | elg | tensai: yup |
| 20:44.29 | tensai | elg: are you a terrorist? I promise I won't tell. |
| 20:44.38 | elg | tensai: no, but I play one on irc |
| 20:44.46 | tensai | ~echelon fodder |
| 20:44.46 | ibot | it has been said that echelon fodder is Bush, Uranium, Dirty Bomb, Jihad, Allah Akbar, TNT, Rent a van, assassination , NSA, wiretaps, sleeper cell, suicide bomb, vest, Oklahoma City, Waco, revenge, anthrax, virgins, fuse, great celebration, July 4th, detcord, martyr, timer, backpack, subway |
| 20:45.15 | elg | rsimpkins: what are you keen on listening to? |
| 20:45.18 | fozzmoo | We need to add Ruby Ridge to that list. |
| 20:45.28 | elg | ~echelon fodder is also Ruby Ridge |
| 20:45.29 | ibot | okay, elg |
| 20:45.39 | rsimpkins | elg: I don't have time to listen to mcuh these days, but i spend all my time on UCANN. |
| 20:45.50 | elg | ucann? |
| 20:46.04 | elg | university of canada at newfoundland? |
| 20:46.11 | fozzmoo | The abbreviated title of Colbert's book. |
| 20:46.22 | rsimpkins | elg: Utah Communications Agency Network - sorry, and an extra 'N' |
| 20:46.30 | elg | what's that? |
| 20:46.40 | rsimpkins | elg: It is a very cool system in Utah. Very very cool. |
| 20:46.55 | rsimpkins | elg: They are switching everything to full encryption though, so it is getting a lot less fun. |
| 20:46.59 | tensai | elg: mostly they talk about how cool they are |
| 20:46.59 | rsimpkins | elg: And illegal. :( |
| 20:47.50 | rsimpkins | elg: http://www.ucan800.org/ |
| 20:48.00 | rsimpkins | Check out the site photos. :) |
| 20:48.39 | elg | so if you listen to ucan you get a helicopter? |
| 20:48.44 | rsimpkins | It is going away this year, likley. |
| 20:48.55 | rsimpkins | elg: You can. Har har. :) |
| 20:49.19 | elg | i still don't get what it is |
| 20:49.23 | tensai | elg: so aside from cordless phones and air traffic, what else is there to listen to? |
| 20:49.28 | fozzmoo | Sounds like black helicopters. |
| 20:49.33 | elg | tensai: nascar |
| 20:49.44 | tensai | elg: anything non-lame? |
| 20:49.50 | elg | police, fire, ham, marine |
| 20:50.20 | elg | the ham stuff can be interesting. at 9pm on sundays in utah you can listen in to a bunch of emergency preparedness people from various stakes doing their little meeting |
| 20:50.52 | elg | most places, police and fire are trunked now, and/or digital. the former means you need a slightly more expensive scanner to listen and I don't know what scanners support the latter. |
| 20:51.00 | elg | mostly, aircraft is what's interesting. unless you like boats. :) |
| 20:51.44 | tensai | not a whole lot of ships around here |
| 20:51.54 | rsimpkins | I'm really deep in to trunked systems. |
| 20:52.04 | rsimpkins | There are some very advanced trunked systems in the SLC area. |
| 20:52.13 | rsimpkins | The church has a highly advnaced on - very strong encryption. |
| 20:52.20 | rsimpkins | *one |
| 20:52.48 | rsimpkins | elg: Sorry, the UCAN is a massive trunked system that just about every org in SLC uses. |
| 20:53.01 | rsimpkins | elg: So police, fire, road, etc, etc. |
| 20:53.37 | elg | gotcha |
| 20:54.08 | fozzmoo | Okay, in the interest of preserving my employment status, I'm going to sign off. :) |
| 20:54.14 | fozzmoo | It doesn't mean anyone won any arguments with me. |
| 20:54.20 | fozzmoo | :-D |
| 21:00.35 | Tene | So, I *still* can't keep in mind which party is the democrats and which is the republicans. |
| 21:00.55 | elg | you mean which is donkey and which is elephant? |
| 21:01.02 | Tene | Every time I want to talk about anything political, I have to go to wikipedia to remember which has which name. |
| 21:01.52 | levi | Yeah, it's kind of funny seeing members of one party demonizing the other. |
| 21:02.03 | levi | Funny as in 'sad'. |
| 21:02.27 | elg | ~lart emcnabb for the last time |
| 21:02.27 | ibot | executes killall -TERM emcnabb for the last time |
| 21:02.28 | Tene | I just can't maintain any sort of connection between the party and the names. |
| 21:03.00 | vontrapp | Tene: keep it that way |
| 21:03.08 | vontrapp | just look at canditates on their own merit ;) |
| 21:03.26 | elg | vontrapp: how is one supposed to do that, when they don't have any merit? |
| 21:03.43 | vontrapp | ba da, *ching* |
| 21:03.44 | emcnabb | elg, you must be bored |
| 21:03.49 | emcnabb | too much larting |
| 21:04.00 | emcnabb | :-) |
| 21:09.23 | elg | -botsnack |
| 21:09.24 | brac | elg: cheers |
| 21:11.50 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:11.50 | ibot | dances the fozzmoo with elg |
| 21:12.26 | elg | -botsnack |
| 21:12.27 | brac | elg: =D |
| 21:12.56 | elg | -botsnack |
| 21:12.56 | brac | elg: cheers |
| 21:13.08 | elg | -botsnack |
| 21:13.08 | brac | elg: thanks :) |
| 21:14.02 | rsimpkins | Are we apathetic? |
| 21:14.18 | elg | i'm just pathetic |
| 21:18.48 | *** join/#utah Aliosa27 (n=Aliosa27@65.89.233.20) |
| 21:26.32 | sontek | rsimpkins: you know those little magnet things you guys handed out at the first plug at omniture? do you have anymore? :P |
| 21:30.36 | rsimpkins | sontek: We might at the next week. |
| 21:30.48 | maquis | rsimpkins: you work for omniture? |
| 21:31.06 | rsimpkins | maquis: Yes. |
| 21:31.10 | maquis | what's the career fair swag going to be this time? you guys always have the best swag |
| 21:31.28 | rsimpkins | It is up to the HR/Marketing people... so we dont' really have much control. |
| 21:31.42 | maquis | well, tell them they've done well so far |
| 21:31.59 | maquis | but the rest of us companies are slightly jealous... |
| 21:32.09 | maquis | the green cookies were tasty in september, though |
| 21:33.03 | rsimpkins | They are just trying to get qualified people to come work here. |
| 21:33.13 | rsimpkins | sontek: If you get hired, you get some of those magnets. :) |
| 21:33.31 | maquis | rsimpkins: so are we |
| 21:33.39 | rsimpkins | Then you will learn to covet the Omniture lava lamp. |
| 21:34.47 | vontrapp | lavalamp! |
| 21:34.53 | vontrapp | is this the career fair tomorrow? |
| 21:36.21 | maquis | vontrapp: no... i'm thinking of the one next week |
| 21:36.24 | maquis | 13th |
| 21:36.54 | maquis | vontrapp: come by the amazon booth... |
| 21:41.47 | vontrapp | oh that's right, it is next week |
| 21:42.58 | sontek | rsimpkins: haha, I have 1 block, I want a few more |
| 21:43.05 | sontek | rsimpkins: they are a big hit around the office :P |
| 21:43.26 | sontek | we just have them sitting on our meeting table and everyday there is a new design made out of them |
| 21:45.00 | sontek | Does anyone know of a publicly available webservice that has the current exchange rate for certain currencies? |
| 21:45.38 | unum | google? |
| 21:46.21 | unum | that's what I always use.... |
| 21:46.21 | macnewbold | most of the free ones are time-delayed, but if you don't need to-the-minute results, they're fine |
| 21:46.26 | macnewbold | and I'll second google |
| 21:46.54 | unum | http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/features.html#currency |
| 21:46.55 | brac | [Google Help : Search Features] |
| 21:47.46 | sontek | yeah, we are going to be doing it in austrailia, so to the minute isn't to important |
| 21:47.59 | sontek | they don't change very often |
| 21:49.00 | sontek | unum: thanks for the google suggestion, I guess we could just screen scrape them, I don't see an API for it |
| 21:58.32 | *** join/#utah lakshmi (n=shnocksh@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 21:58.48 | lakshmi | hey |
| 21:59.23 | *** join/#utah acrid (n=mckay@reverse.control4.com) |
| 22:01.00 | nick125 | Sargun: ping |
| 22:04.56 | lakshmi | :-/ |
| 22:06.13 | dmdavis | lakshmi: hi |
| 22:06.31 | lakshmi | dmdavis hey, your still here! sup? |
| 22:06.36 | dmdavis | lakshmi: how come this morning you were capital L and now you are lower case? |
| 22:06.48 | dmdavis | lakshmi: not much, but I'm about to not be here :) |
| 22:06.58 | lakshmi | because xchat and campus internet don't love each other |
| 22:07.05 | dmdavis | ah |
| 22:07.37 | lakshmi | if irc works then it signs me on with whatever name it feels like and im too lazy to go change it |
| 22:07.44 | lakshmi | how did those projects go? |
| 22:07.57 | dmdavis | I'm still working on the white paper. I hate writing. :( |
| 22:08.09 | lakshmi | aw why? |
| 22:08.15 | lakshmi | well depends on the kinda writing |
| 22:08.40 | dmdavis | writing to communicate thoughts, I suck at. writing to make my computer do something interesting, I enjoy and I'm OK at |
| 22:09.08 | dmdavis | but, I need to go now to the dark land of internetlessness. see ya later |
| 22:09.22 | Tene | dmdavis: just write a program to write your paper for you. |
| 22:09.37 | dmdavis | Tene: I'm using one of those, though I didn't write it. Donald Knuth did. :) |
| 22:09.56 | dmdavis | Tene: it just doesn't do enough of the writing |
| 22:10.27 | nick125 | lakshmi: hey, what's up? |
| 22:11.00 | lakshmi | nick125 nm, life you? |
| 22:11.26 | nick125 | lakshmi: not too much...sitting here wondering how stupid this state can get. |
| 22:11.39 | Sargun | Quite a bit stupider, why? |
| 22:12.30 | lakshmi | which way did your state go nick125 ? |
| 22:12.47 | lakshmi | Sargun has the primary been announced yet or is that tonight? |
| 22:12.55 | unum | ? |
| 22:12.59 | nick125 | Sargun: Did you hear about those boxes of ballots that were kept at some Clinton-supporting democratic party chairwoman's house overnight? |
| 22:13.26 | unum | ug |
| 22:13.43 | elg | why? |
| 22:13.46 | elg | why would they do that? |
| 22:14.01 | nick125 | Those boxes had about 200 ballots in them. And Clinton only won in New Mexico by about ~140 votes. |
| 22:14.44 | unum | oh |
| 22:15.27 | bonez44 | anyone here use Photoshop....a lot? |
| 22:15.35 | Tene | bonez44: why? |
| 22:16.00 | bonez44 | I need to find out if Photoshop can work with images..when there are several pages..or if it can only handle one page image documents |
| 22:16.16 | nick125 | You could put the pages into layers or separate files |
| 22:16.19 | nick125 | That's about it though. |
| 22:16.24 | elg | nick125: she hasn't won yet |
| 22:16.26 | Tene | what sort of image type has multiple pages? |
| 22:16.33 | elg | aren't they doing arecount? |
| 22:16.36 | bonez44 | My wife has me scan various images....and I just run them all through..and send the entire file...the designer complains that she needs one page at a time, one page per file |
| 22:16.44 | elg | aren't there 17k provisional ballots to count? |
| 22:16.46 | bonez44 | .tif images... |
| 22:16.46 | nick125 | elg: Noone knows. |
| 22:16.52 | nick125 | This entire thing was screwed up. |
| 22:17.00 | elg | nobody knows if they're doing a recount? :) |
| 22:17.12 | levi | bonez44: So all the images are in a single file? |
| 22:17.51 | levi | As far as I know, there isn't any concept of a 'page' in a tif document. |
| 22:17.55 | bonez44 | levi: yeah, the scannner has auto feed..so I stuck 7 cards...3x5 or so...in the hopper, it scanned them all, saved it as one file, emailed, and the designer then wrote back..I need them as separate files...for each image |
| 22:18.30 | levi | bonez44: What does it look like when you open it? |
| 22:18.36 | bonez44 | levi: if there is no PAGE in a tif document..then wouldn't the file be just one very long single page..which the designer should be able to open....carving/cropping out each image herself? |
| 22:18.56 | rsimpkins | bonez44: tell the designer to make 7 copies of the one file, then crop the images! :) |
| 22:19.16 | nick125 | lakshmi: Anything interesting going on? |
| 22:19.19 | levi | Ahh, I guess tiff does have a multi-page extension. |
| 22:20.29 | elg | or multi-image anyway |
| 22:21.00 | lakshmi | nick125 nothing much not failing outa school so thats good. |
| 22:21.03 | bonez44 | rsimpkins: 'make 7'? |
| 22:21.08 | elg | i'd tell the designer to get with the program. being a graphics designer means working with graphics files |
| 22:21.08 | bonez44 | ah.... |
| 22:21.12 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 22:21.12 | elg | it's not that there isn't software to do it |
| 22:21.17 | rsimpkins | bonez44: copy the file 7 times - there ya go. :) |
| 22:21.19 | elg | even on windows |
| 22:21.33 | bonez44 | so there should be an extension that allows her to see all the images..and to use them? |
| 22:21.43 | rsimpkins | bonez44: I mean, seriously, the designer can't deal with the one file thing? |
| 22:21.52 | levi | elg: Apparently this multi-page tiff thing is pretty non-standard. I think it's a fax machine thing. |
| 22:22.14 | elg | maybe. i've seen it before and had no trouble dealing with it |
| 22:22.21 | levi | Ahh. |
| 22:22.28 | elg | i think it was in a fax context, but the software had no trouble |
| 22:22.38 | elg | neither did the software our salespeople were using |
| 22:22.46 | bonez44 | well, it likes is a fax machine thing....I scan them with my HP Office Jet 600....and it saves them as one .tif file which it would then intend to fax out...but I then attach the resultant .tif image to an email and send to designer |
| 22:22.51 | elg | something rather generic. windows imaging or something |
| 22:22.54 | elg | maybe irfanview |
| 22:22.59 | rsimpkins | lakshmi: Can I recruit you for some help? |
| 22:23.17 | lakshmi | rsimpkins depends on the kind of help... |
| 22:23.18 | levi | Hmm, I found a reference to multiple IFDs in a Tiff file, but baseline tiff readers aren't required to read beyond the first one. |
| 22:23.38 | elg | bonez44: send her a link to irfanview. |
| 22:24.21 | elg | if you feel the need to support her nonprofessionalism, there are command-line tools in linux that I'm sure can explode the tiffs into individual images |
| 22:24.38 | elg | which would be better than trying to do it in photoshop or gimp |
| 22:25.46 | bonez44 | irfanview, ok... |
| 22:28.27 | bonez44 | elg: but irfanview should have a plugin that would fit with Photoshop...to make it simple for her? |
| 22:31.01 | elg | irfanview is simple |
| 22:31.06 | elg | but it's not a photoshop plugin |
| 22:31.40 | bonez44 | what's it a plugin for? just standalone program? |
| 22:31.57 | bonez44 | she'd filter the .tif file through irfanview, save it and then open it with Photoshop? |
| 22:32.52 | elg | just a standalone program |
| 22:33.01 | elg | for viewing, transforming, etc. images |
| 22:33.23 | elg | so for example she'd open the multipage tiff in irfanview and save it as N png files |
| 22:33.40 | elg | or, if she's as smart as she sounds, N jpeg files |
| 22:33.51 | nick125 | or GIFs |
| 22:35.14 | bonez44 | is .png going away? I thought, perhaps in error, that it was a better file format that .jpg |
| 22:36.01 | elg | it's not going away, no |
| 22:36.09 | Tene | bonez44: he's saying that she sounds "too stupid to use png" |
| 22:36.10 | elg | it is complementary to jpg |
| 22:36.42 | elg | png (or just use tiff again) would be the right thing in this case, you don't want to go from lossless to lossy until you're done doing any intermediary processing |
| 22:36.45 | elg | (if then) |
| 22:40.18 | levi | Heh, my daughter is on the computer. |
| 22:41.44 | levi | I got a 'bell in window 1' message from screen, and lots of random characters appearing in an emacs buffer. |
| 22:42.13 | Tene | http://stephan-zielinski.com/images/nyetGateSmaller.jpg |
| 22:43.20 | elg | Tene: that's probably funny |
| 22:43.27 | Tene | Probably. |
| 22:43.27 | elg | but i wouldn't get it |
| 22:49.51 | goozbach | AARRG!!!!! |
| 22:49.57 | goozbach | apache bench is broken |
| 22:50.04 | Tene | you broke it? |
| 22:55.51 | goozbach | not me |
| 22:56.03 | goozbach | I had to hack the code because apr is broken |
| 22:56.10 | goozbach | er no longer broken |
| 22:56.35 | goozbach | someone fixed a blocking issue in apr and it caused the latest ab to blow up if there is a long connect |
| 22:58.13 | levi | Tene: Do you get it? |
| 22:58.24 | levi | I tried to make some sense of it, but failed. |
| 22:58.49 | Tene | levi: I think it's something like: under Krushchev, we couldn't get resistors, so we used thick nails. |
| 23:02.41 | *** join/#utah Ahasvero (n=Nemo@host-84-220-210-19.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 23:02.42 | elg | i think the punchline must have to do with the resistance of thick nails |
| 23:02.53 | elg | and how that effects the circuit |
| 23:02.56 | elg | whatever it does |
| 23:03.00 | levi | Here's the context: > i think the punchline must have to do with the resistance of thick |
| 23:03.07 | levi | Grr. |
| 23:03.09 | levi | http://stephan-zielinski.com/index.php?id=57 |
| 23:03.09 | *** join/#utah bsdice (i=bsdice@DSL01.83.171.145.91.ip-pool.NEFkom.net) |
| 23:04.11 | bsdice | X=A |
| 23:04.15 | bsdice | simple as that |
| 23:04.19 | bsdice | there is no BUTT gate |
| 23:08.03 | levi | bsdice: We were trying to figure out the joke behind the electromechanical NYET gates link. |
| 23:10.49 | goozbach | grrr giving up on ab |
| 23:10.52 | goozbach | going with flood |
| 23:11.07 | bsdice | you have to setup logic table |
| 23:11.13 | bsdice | there are 5 inputs |
| 23:11.19 | levi | Apparently, you can't drive A or B to true without the approval of one of the Army, KGB, or Party. |
| 23:11.39 | bsdice | nyet is russian for "no" |
| 23:11.49 | levi | bsdice: I'm aware of how digital logic works. |
| 23:12.00 | bsdice | k k |
| 23:12.01 | levi | It's clearly a joke, though. |
| 23:12.01 | bsdice | sorry... |
| 23:12.35 | elg | a joke isn't a joke if you have to set up a truth table |
| 23:12.40 | elg | maybe a mildly funny riddle |
| 23:12.42 | elg | but not a joke |
| 23:12.56 | herlo | elg: who sys |
| 23:12.57 | herlo | says |
| 23:13.01 | levi | The NANDs with the inputs tied together are NOTs, i.e. NYETs. |
| 23:13.02 | elg | emcnabb says |
| 23:13.12 | herlo | I don't believe it |
| 23:13.22 | elg | take it up with the mcnabbster |
| 23:13.24 | herlo | emcnabb isn't even ehere |
| 23:13.37 | levi | Since they're always in pairs, they have no logical effect. |
| 23:13.48 | bsdice | yes |
| 23:14.05 | bsdice | its an OR with 3 inputs |
| 23:14.12 | bsdice | Party, Army or KGB |
| 23:14.26 | bsdice | sind A and B feed AND this is gating function |
| 23:14.39 | levi | So, input from the Party, KGB, or Army passes through a bunch of NYETs, and unless you get approval of one of them, you'll have no output at all on your A/B decision. |
| 23:15.16 | bsdice | yes |
| 23:15.27 | bsdice | its either Yes or not connected |
| 23:15.28 | levi | I think the point of this is to keep the BUT gate from latching on a high B. |
| 23:16.30 | levi | It's basically a mildly funny way of explaining away the fault in his BUT gate joke. |
| 23:16.46 | bsdice | the 1uF cap will make the slope exponential |
| 23:16.50 | bsdice | slow |
| 23:16.55 | bsdice | a joke in itself |
| 23:17.03 | bsdice | slow slope |
| 23:17.07 | bsdice | can u say that |
| 23:18.06 | bsdice | the 6d nail will obviously short to ground and possibly destroy the logic ANDs |
| 23:18.15 | bsdice | while the 5 ohms will only do this slowly |
| 23:21.39 | levi | Anyway, the whole point is the BUT gate, which forces B to have been true whenever A is, as a primary ingredient in the logic justifying USA presence in Iraq. |
| 23:22.49 | levi | Having figured it out, I give it a mild chuckle. EE types might find it hilarious, I guess. |
| 23:23.10 | rsimpkins | I'm amazed they managed to pass that stimulus plan. |
| 23:23.21 | levi | rsimpkins: Did it pass? |
| 23:23.24 | rsimpkins | Yeah. |
| 23:23.30 | levi | Huh. |
| 23:23.37 | levi | What kind of checks can we expect now? |
| 23:23.49 | rsimpkins | well, I know for our family, it will really help. |
| 23:23.56 | rsimpkins | We are the bullseye for this plan. |
| 23:24.11 | elg | what plan is that? |
| 23:24.13 | levi | How's it supposed to be calculated? |
| 23:24.22 | rsimpkins | the economic stimulus plan. |
| 23:24.26 | levi | elg: The 'send out checks to people so they'll buy stuff' plan. |
| 23:24.45 | rsimpkins | levi: http://www.lifespy.com/2008/2008-stimulus-plan-calculator/ |
| 23:24.56 | rsimpkins | That might be off a little, but not much. |
| 23:25.42 | levi | Hmm, that's nothing to sneeze at. |
| 23:25.57 | rsimpkins | Not for middle income folks. |
| 23:26.10 | rsimpkins | I can make a couple thousand bucks go a long way. |
| 23:26.22 | rsimpkins | That's the thing I think the misunderestimated. |
| 23:26.30 | rsimpkins | No one is going to go out and buy stuff with this money. |
| 23:26.39 | rsimpkins | They are going to hunker down, pay down debt, put it in the bank, etc. |
| 23:27.04 | elg | i think you overestimate the intelligence and discipline of the average american. |
| 23:27.19 | elg | but i can see it going to rent and food |
| 23:27.41 | rsimpkins | It isn't going to stimulate much - just keep us a float maybe another 6 months until we really tank. |
| 23:27.41 | elg | so is this a rebate on this year's taxes? or separate? |
| 23:27.50 | rsimpkins | last years taxes. |
| 23:27.56 | elg | 2007 |
| 23:27.59 | rsimpkins | Yeah. |
| 23:28.14 | rsimpkins | So you can't count the kid you had this year. |
| 23:28.22 | elg | ah, but i had him last year |
| 23:28.23 | herlo | why not? |
| 23:28.35 | herlo | I like counting kids I had this year, I'm already up to 4 |
| 23:28.35 | rsimpkins | herlo: It is a 2007 tax refund I believe. |
| 23:28.44 | elg | herlo: haha |
| 23:28.47 | herlo | rsimpkins: yes I know |
| 23:29.28 | rsimpkins | herlo: So you're expecting a nice check then I bet. |
| 23:30.06 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@67.42.124.159) |
| 23:30.20 | levi | rsimpkins: Wow, the amount is hugely dependant on the number of kids. |
| 23:31.05 | elg | so do you only get the full amount if you owe that much tax? or do you get it independent? |
| 23:31.27 | RyanE | last I heard, you get it whether you pay taxes or not. |
| 23:31.42 | elg | i probably owe tax, but probably not 1800 |
| 23:32.38 | levi | Not owing taxes means you get $300 per person in your family. |
| 23:32.48 | bsdice | nice |
| 23:32.54 | bsdice | good for low income families |
| 23:32.58 | bsdice | buy more burgers |
| 23:33.01 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=redbeard@nat/redhat/x-9eaadb1e6ee09680) |
| 23:33.31 | levi | Well, you get nothing if your agi <= 3000 |
| 23:33.44 | elg | that's a pretty low income |
| 23:33.54 | elg | that's like teenager part-time summer job income |
| 23:33.55 | levi | If you owe taxes and your agi >= 87000, you also get nothing. |
| 23:34.37 | elg | i'm a grad student and my agi is somewhere around 20k |
| 23:34.46 | levi | If you're filing with a spouse, you can make up to 174000 together before you get nothing. |
| 23:35.10 | bsdice | so how is america these days |
| 23:35.16 | elg | american |
| 23:35.24 | bsdice | good country to live in still? |
| 23:35.37 | bsdice | what about DHS and freedom |
| 23:35.53 | levi | If you make between 3000 and 174000 (married filing jointly) you get $1200 pluss $300 per kid. |
| 23:36.22 | levi | Between 150000 and 174000, you lose some percentage. |
| 23:36.24 | thaddeusq | kaching |
| 23:37.02 | RyanE | bsdice: works for me. :) |
| 23:37.05 | rsimpkins | I can't find the details regarind when these checks are supposed to come. |
| 23:37.15 | rsimpkins | *regarding |
| 23:37.25 | elg | are they not part of filing your taxes? |
| 23:37.30 | RyanE | not soon enough, that's for sure. |
| 23:37.42 | rsimpkins | If it came tomorrow, it would be spent tomorrow. |
| 23:37.45 | levi | Hah, I can get the calculator to return a negative amount. |
| 23:37.50 | levi | Not sure how far to trust it. :) |
| 23:40.00 | rsimpkins | Well, it says before december 31st, 2008. :) |
| 23:40.29 | unum | I filed my taxes on monday electronically |
| 23:40.31 | rsimpkins | I wonder how much it is going to cost to give away all this money. |
| 23:40.35 | rsimpkins | I bet it is non-trivial. |
| 23:40.52 | unum | I wonder when my refund will show up |
| 23:40.54 | RyanE | If the Senate gives quick approval, the first rebate payments could begin going out in May and most people could have them by July, he said. |
| 23:40.55 | levi | Anyway, the basic formula for taxpayers is $600 for you, $600 for your spouse if filing jointly, and $300 per kid. |
| 23:41.05 | unum | the more money I make, the more I realize how the poor get screwed by taxes |
| 23:41.05 | RyanE | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22782454/page/2/ |
| 23:41.11 | rsimpkins | RyanE: Yeah, tooooo late. :) |
| 23:41.50 | RyanE | rsimpkins: and you're expecting something *quick* from the gvt? This *is* quick, for some definition of quick. |
| 23:42.28 | rsimpkins | RyanE: Well, I believe the govmnt prints checks all day longs. |
| 23:42.31 | rsimpkins | long... |
| 23:42.37 | rsimpkins | All they need to do is put my name on one. |
| 23:42.41 | RyanE | heh |
| 23:42.55 | RyanE | yeh, maybe one of those Homeland Department blank checks... that's the ticket! |
| 23:43.11 | RyanE | (yeah, insert 'Security' in there somewhere) |
| 23:43.23 | rsimpkins | I wanna figure out how to start selling $500 hammers to the military. |
| 23:43.34 | RyanE | the toilet seats are more profitable. |
| 23:44.19 | bsdice | lots of cynism |
| 23:44.38 | RyanE | yeah, that's normal for this group. Nothing American-centric, though. :) |
| 23:45.36 | bsdice | last week somebody said "you can log off of #utah, but you can never leave" |
| 23:46.19 | unum | rep dougall explained it to me like this "it's the governments job to make sure companies can make money, so they can hirer employees and innovate" |
| 23:46.32 | unum | to be fair that was in context of a discussion about patents |
| 23:46.42 | unum | why a state rep was discussing patents is beyond me |
| 23:46.48 | unum | probably good friends with yarro |
| 23:47.09 | rsimpkins | The problem is that it is the shareholders who want to make the money, so they are the ones recieving most of the benefit of innovation. |
| 23:47.38 | unum | the probablem is he said goverment should hand out monopolies *before* the innovation takes place |
| 23:47.52 | unum | I kid you not. i wish they were posting the audio online back than |
| 23:48.06 | unum | s/than/then |
| 23:50.17 | rsimpkins | I had no idea netsol finally dropped their price. |
| 23:51.11 | rsimpkins | Oh wait, no they didn't. |
| 23:51.16 | rsimpkins | Bait and switch, stupid netsol. |
| 23:51.23 | rsimpkins | Why does ANYONE buy a domain from them? |
| 23:56.21 | *** part/#utah bonez44 (n=scott@75.144.9.237) |
