| 00:57.33 | Sargun | ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e', 'f', 'g', 'h', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'l', 'm', 'n', 'o', 'p', 'q', 'r', 's', 't', 'u', 'v', 'w', 'x', 'y', 'z', [...], [...]] |
| 01:12.28 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@32.237.sfcn.org) |
| 01:12.54 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 01:13.23 | Wegg | RON PAUL RULEZ! :-) |
| 01:14.23 | fozzmoo | Ron Paul rules... the underworld or something. |
| 01:15.44 | RedHeron | Ron Paul is a big, fat liar. And my opinion has yet to be changed since it was formed in July. |
| 01:16.44 | Wegg | what did he lie about? |
| 01:18.16 | *** part/#utah mrpull- (n=misterpu@mail.pollmann.us) |
| 01:19.50 | fozzmoo | Yeah, what did he lie about? |
| 01:21.45 | Wegg | guess nothing? |
| 01:22.03 | RedHeron | HIs lips moved. |
| 01:22.09 | RedHeron | Lies proceeded. |
| 01:22.24 | RedHeron | For example: "I would deregulate the Internet" |
| 01:22.45 | RedHeron | Which isn't regulated in the first place, except by communications companies who are making a mess of things. |
| 01:22.58 | RedHeron | Another example: "I'll get rid of the IRS!" |
| 01:23.23 | RedHeron | Congress not only could override him on that, they would, and he doesn't have a track record of making big things happen. |
| 01:23.55 | fozzmoo | Well, I wouldn't call those lies. |
| 01:24.03 | fozzmoo | Maybe unrealistic goals, but not lies. |
| 01:24.16 | RedHeron | They are, given that Ron Paul understands that he could never accomplish them in a million years. |
| 01:24.35 | RedHeron | Being that he knows how Congress works. |
| 01:24.35 | fozzmoo | Oh, but he could, with enough stolen credit card numbers. ;-) |
| 01:24.42 | RedHeron | Heh. |
| 01:24.54 | Wegg | He is very honest about that. As President he can only accomplish so much. |
| 01:24.56 | RedHeron | And fake Liberty dollars? |
| 01:25.28 | RedHeron | The point is, he claimed he *would* do those things as president. |
| 01:25.37 | Wegg | the biggest thing he can do as "commander and chief" of the military is quit spending bajillions of dollars in old cold war commitments. |
| 01:25.49 | Wegg | Like Korea and Japan and Germany etc. |
| 01:26.16 | fozzmoo | I think every candidate has a tendency to make blanket statements about what they will do with the implied disclaimer of "if nobody stops me." |
| 01:26.55 | RedHeron | Obama hasn't qualified any of it. He's given timetables. |
| 01:27.11 | RedHeron | 16 months for withdrawal from Iraq. |
| 01:27.18 | fozzmoo | Yeah. Obama's nutso. |
| 01:27.30 | RedHeron | And if we remove our presence from South Korea, what stops them from building nukes? |
| 01:27.33 | fozzmoo | I mean, I'd rather have him than Hillary... but he's still nutso. :) |
| 01:27.36 | Wegg | Ron would have us out right away. |
| 01:27.41 | Wegg | none of this timetable BS. |
| 01:27.45 | RedHeron | Ron would have us in a warzone. |
| 01:27.51 | Wegg | "We just walked in. . . we would just walk out" |
| 01:27.59 | Wegg | not us. |
| 01:28.06 | RedHeron | Immediate pullout would destabilize the entire region, and we'd be target #3. |
| 01:28.24 | RedHeron | After each other, and India. |
| 01:28.43 | Wegg | But it would settle down |
| 01:28.53 | fozzmoo | I don't know why people want us out of Iraq so bad- things are going pretty well there over the last year or so. |
| 01:28.59 | Wegg | we have been propping up these stupid dictatorships for years and years. |
| 01:29.08 | Wegg | time to blow all the cards down and let people manage themselves. |
| 01:29.16 | fozzmoo | Think of all the cheap oil we can get out of Iraq! :) |
| 01:29.21 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: It's because of the pricetag which is deflating our economy and inflating prices. |
| 01:29.30 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: I agree with the cost issue. |
| 01:29.40 | fozzmoo | Our economy needs a major reset. |
| 01:29.43 | Wegg | we borrow 3 BILLION a day to keep our country going. |
| 01:29.56 | Wegg | From CHINA! |
| 01:29.59 | RedHeron | Wegg: You obviously have no education about how societies work outside the USA. |
| 01:30.04 | Wegg | Right or wrong. . we just can'tafford it. |
| 01:30.12 | fozzmoo | I don't think Hillary, Obama, or McCain are going to do anything to change that. |
| 01:30.18 | Wegg | I grew up in Australia. |
| 01:30.32 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: As I said, Obama has timetables on his promises. |
| 01:30.55 | fozzmoo | Regardless, he's not the "shrink the government and stop the spending" candidate. |
| 01:31.26 | Wegg | he is the robin hood candidate. |
| 01:31.29 | fozzmoo | He may pull us out of Iraq in 16 months, but in the meantime, he'll start a $100B/yr universal health care plan. |
| 01:31.35 | Wegg | Rob from the rich to give to the poor. |
| 01:31.49 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: He pushes us in the right direction to put us in position for it, rather than doing it all at once and destabilizing the world. |
| 01:31.59 | vontrapp | RedHeron: societies outside the USA are so bassackwards and wrong they don't deserve any sovernty or freedom to fix their own problems? |
| 01:32.20 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: you're here! :) |
| 01:32.26 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's our presence that's causing that instability in the first place. |
| 01:32.45 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: How do you figure $100B/year? |
| 01:33.03 | vontrapp | RedHeron: exactly, so we should just get out |
| 01:33.12 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: All the democratic candidates' healthcare proposals were between 100B and 140B/yr proposals. |
| 01:33.15 | RedHeron | vontrapp: If we simply "get out" then we leave them in the dust. |
| 01:33.22 | fozzmoo | This was back when Edwards was still in the race. |
| 01:33.25 | vontrapp | so what? that's not our problem |
| 01:33.26 | fozzmoo | Couple months ago. |
| 01:33.27 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's why al-Qaeda started in the first place. |
| 01:33.31 | vontrapp | they don't even want us there |
| 01:33.53 | Wegg | just leave |
| 01:33.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: They don't want us there, but they keep asking us to stay? Something's wrong with that logic. |
| 01:33.54 | vontrapp | if they don't want us there, we can't afford it, and our presence is destabilizing the country further, why the hell are we there? |
| 01:34.07 | Wegg | yup |
| 01:34.13 | fozzmoo | I thought things in Iraq were on the up and up. |
| 01:34.25 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Because our sudden absence would destabilize 14 countries, not just 1. |
| 01:34.28 | vontrapp | fozmoo: yep, in costs |
| 01:34.35 | fozzmoo | Last half of 2007 was the most peaceful since Saddam was toppled. |
| 01:34.55 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Iraq is okay, but there's still a civil war brewing. |
| 01:34.59 | vontrapp | RedHeron: give them the benifit of the doubt, they are people, they have brains, they have wills and dreams, they can handle things |
| 01:35.05 | Wegg | fozzmoo. . . thats bull. I saw a thing on Youtube yesterday where they were interviewing a reporter live and a huge gunfight was happening right behind him. |
| 01:35.11 | fozzmoo | It's easy to argue that it's EXPENSIVE for us to be there, but I have a hard time following the argument that we're destabilizing the country. |
| 01:35.15 | RedHeron | vontrapp: That's *not* how they handle things in the middle east. |
| 01:35.49 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Our presence is *the* stabilizing factor. |
| 01:35.49 | fozzmoo | heh heh. If you saw it on YouTube, it must be that way on every streetcorner in the whole country. |
| 01:35.50 | Wegg | fozzmoo, before we were there women could drive, hold jobs, get an education etc. |
| 01:35.58 | vontrapp | RedHeron: there you go again, they _can't_ handle themselves, they're so sorry and backwards we _have_ to control their lives for them |
| 01:36.03 | vontrapp | no wonder they hate us |
| 01:36.04 | Wegg | Now they have to wear blankets over their whole bodies if they want to go shopping anywhere. |
| 01:36.08 | vontrapp | we're so condescending |
| 01:36.10 | RedHeron | vontrapp: I didn't even imply that. |
| 01:36.12 | Wegg | Its all gone back to the dark ages. |
| 01:36.29 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're twisting what I'm saying completely, and I'm done with this conversation. |
| 01:36.42 | fozzmoo | Awh. |
| 01:36.45 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i said they can handle things you said "that's not how they handle things" |
| 01:36.48 | Wegg | was getting fun. :-) |
| 01:36.58 | vontrapp | RedHeron: i'm sorry if i'm misunderstanding you |
| 01:37.14 | RedHeron | As I said, I'm done with it. I'm not arguing further, because you're reading WAY too much into what I'm saying. |
| 01:37.18 | RedHeron | Read the words. |
| 01:37.23 | vontrapp | i'm honestly quite confused, one sentence it looks like you're agreeing with me, then the next totally throws me off |
| 01:37.29 | Wegg | Does anyone know how to configure a firewall on a CentOS server? (sorry to change the subject I started). :-) |
| 01:37.40 | fozzmoo | Wegg: vim /etc/sysconfig/iptables |
| 01:37.48 | fozzmoo | Then /etc/init.d/iptables restart |
| 01:38.20 | RedHeron | Well, it's just that it's obvious that Ron Paul isn't being honest about what he can accomplish, but nobody wants to vote for someone who has a 12-year track record of doing what he says and saying what he does. |
| 01:38.26 | Wegg | OoOooooo cool. Look at that. |
| 01:38.38 | fozzmoo | Wegg: I think you can use system-config-securitylevel if you want a wizardly approach. |
| 01:39.08 | Wegg | I didn't install a GUI |
| 01:39.19 | Wegg | Its a BlueQuartz/Centos install. |
| 01:39.24 | vontrapp | i think it's broken, i'm confused again |
| 01:39.27 | fozzmoo | Why is it that I have a nagging suspicion #politics on IRC woudln't be kind to my support of Romney? |
| 01:39.38 | Wegg | Yea mine is screwed up. . . so I'm changing the subject. :) |
| 01:40.02 | vontrapp | Wegg: haha |
| 01:40.21 | Wegg | I don't see anything in this iptables file that opens or closes ports. . . |
| 01:40.27 | Wegg | sorry for my ignorance. |
| 01:40.48 | fozzmoo | Wegg: Usually, typical iptables config just denies everything. |
| 01:40.53 | vontrapp | iptables is hard to read if you've never seen it before |
| 01:41.00 | fozzmoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:41.05 | Wegg | o.O |
| 01:41.09 | vontrapp | typical draconian iptables |
| 01:41.10 | Wegg | Ok I'm scared now |
| 01:41.19 | fozzmoo | But if you want to, say, allow 22 (SSH): |
| 01:41.22 | fozzmoo | -A RH-Firewall-1-INPUT -m state --state NEW -m tcp -p tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT |
| 01:41.26 | fozzmoo | Add that before the REJECT rule. |
| 01:41.45 | fozzmoo | STOP STARING AT ME! |
| 01:41.51 | Wegg | can . . . I pay you to fix my server? |
| 01:42.02 | Wegg | even though I don't know you from Adam. |
| 01:42.03 | Wegg | he he |
| 01:42.15 | Wegg | yea. . . I love it when you talk geek. |
| 01:42.20 | vontrapp | staring and drooling, run fozzmoo! he'll eat you |
| 01:42.34 | fozzmoo | You know Adam? :) |
| 01:43.04 | Wegg | he he |
| 01:43.15 | Wegg | I can't get my mail server to work. |
| 01:43.30 | Wegg | the smtp doesn't allow me to send e-mail through my server |
| 01:43.36 | Sargun | irsxc.com |
| 01:43.45 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_ (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 01:43.53 | Wegg | so it was suggested that I use a secure alternate port but when I portscan my server . . . that one is blocked. |
| 01:44.20 | fozzmoo | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6s21cyhRaY |
| 01:44.27 | vontrapp | why use an alternate port? |
| 01:44.42 | Wegg | just trying to follow people's suggestions to get around issues. |
| 01:44.50 | vontrapp | what are the issues? |
| 01:44.57 | vontrapp | i take it spam? |
| 01:45.00 | Wegg | can't send e-mail through my server. |
| 01:45.01 | Wegg | no |
| 01:45.13 | Wegg | Pop works. . . smtp doesn't. |
| 01:45.23 | vontrapp | hmm, so you need to send mail through your server from another location |
| 01:45.30 | vontrapp | my favorite solution is vpn |
| 01:45.30 | Wegg | bingo |
| 01:45.46 | vontrapp | after that, smtp_auth |
| 01:46.00 | Wegg | smtp auth is what I'm trying to get to work. |
| 01:46.11 | vontrapp | it's really hard, that's why vpn is my #1 |
| 01:46.17 | fozzmoo | CentOS's Sendmail, out of the box, only listens on the loopback interface |
| 01:46.31 | vontrapp | seems like there's only a bazillion things that can go wrong with smtp_auth |
| 01:46.47 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Obama's an inspirational dude. |
| 01:46.57 | vontrapp | refer them to the montel williams footage |
| 01:47.07 | RedHeron | Montel Williams? |
| 01:47.12 | vontrapp | where he shames the hosts for obsessing over heath ledger |
| 01:47.18 | Wegg | oh yea that was great |
| 01:47.28 | Wegg | youtube |
| 01:47.35 | fozzmoo | Who needs a TV when you've got YT and BT. :) |
| 01:47.46 | RedHeron | I woulda loved to see that. |
| 01:47.57 | Wegg | I dunno. . . full HD Lost. . . live. . . is pretty cool. |
| 01:48.16 | RedHeron | While I respected Heath Ledger, I was pretty well fed up with everyone obsessing. |
| 01:48.20 | fozzmoo | I honestly didn't know who Heath Ledger was. I didn't see Bareback Cowboy and that's all I knew he was in. |
| 01:48.29 | RedHeron | First Knight was good. |
| 01:48.34 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 01:48.42 | RedHeron | Roar was actually pretty good, about 10 years back. |
| 01:48.42 | vontrapp | http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5639 |
| 01:48.50 | fozzmoo | One person told me the reason he killed himself was because he got around to watching First Knight. |
| 01:48.59 | Wegg | ha ha |
| 01:49.04 | RedHeron | See, that's disrespectful. |
| 01:49.09 | Wegg | but funny |
| 01:49.19 | vontrapp | he was in a knight's tale |
| 01:49.19 | fozzmoo | But then, I thought he looked like the guy who was in Ten Things I Hate About Tou |
| 01:49.22 | vontrapp | i liked that movie |
| 01:49.24 | fozzmoo | s/Tou/You/ |
| 01:49.39 | brac | [The BRAD BLOG : Montel Williams' Show Dropped After Standing up for the Troops on Fox 'News'...] |
| 01:49.39 | fozzmoo | So, I checked. and he was. |
| 01:49.40 | Wegg | he was that guy. |
| 01:49.44 | fozzmoo | I thought he did a decent job in there. |
| 01:49.54 | Wegg | yea he was good. |
| 01:49.59 | Wegg | but now he is dead. |
| 01:50.01 | RedHeron | I don't see a need to be disrespectful, but I think celebrity death is just one more thing that happens to everyone and shouldn't be dwelled on. |
| 01:50.02 | fozzmoo | I liked that movie because the main character - the girl - is a lot like my wife was when I met her. |
| 01:50.16 | fozzmoo | Reading the Bell Jar and stuff like that. :) |
| 01:50.59 | RedHeron | I mean, reporting is one thing, but going ON and ON... doesn't this get tiring? It's not like anyone benefits from Ledger's death, do they? |
| 01:51.11 | fozzmoo | only the media ratings. |
| 01:51.18 | fozzmoo | They get more advertising dollars. |
| 01:51.25 | vontrapp | it allows them to ignore the real political issues further |
| 01:51.36 | RedHeron | Yeah, only because people pay attention from the mass-media they're force-fed. |
| 01:52.00 | fozzmoo | I often wonder why shows like Glenn Beck and Nancy Grace on HNN cover stuff like Natalie Holloway and Britney stories. |
| 01:52.10 | Wegg | some father in iraq gets blown to bits by an IED fighting for our freedom. . . and he just gets a tickmark on the board. |
| 01:52.13 | fozzmoo | Or Paris-in-Jail. |
| 01:52.29 | fozzmoo | At least Glenn Beck provides some balance and tells us the economy is going to hell. |
| 01:52.44 | Wegg | Glen Back had Ron Paul on his show. |
| 01:52.49 | fozzmoo | Yep. |
| 01:52.53 | Wegg | They had a little love in. |
| 01:52.57 | Wegg | :-) |
| 01:53.02 | fozzmoo | And this last week, Ron Paul wrote a piece for Glenn's e-mail newsletter. |
| 01:53.11 | fozzmoo | Yeah, a little french-kissing action there. |
| 01:53.17 | Wegg | was kind of hot. |
| 01:53.42 | Wegg | I hate linux |
| 01:53.45 | fozzmoo | Dr. Paul didn't look completely comfortable with the situation being televised. |
| 01:53.49 | Wegg | so damn confusing. |
| 01:54.34 | fozzmoo | When my car is in neutral, it doesn't go anywhere. |
| 01:54.35 | Wegg | I love linux when it works. |
| 01:54.44 | fozzmoo | So, I'm opposed to Net Neutrality. |
| 01:54.51 | Wegg | like my samba server at work just works and works and works. . . never have to re-start it. |
| 01:54.58 | Wegg | But when you need to configure something. . . |
| 01:55.02 | Wegg | ieee yieee eyieeeee. |
| 01:55.10 | fozzmoo | Wegg: It helps to know a Linux geek. |
| 01:55.19 | Wegg | why do you think I'm here! |
| 01:55.28 | Wegg | want some pizza? |
| 01:55.31 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 01:55.36 | Wegg | Mountain Dew? |
| 01:55.44 | fozzmoo | Diet? |
| 01:56.04 | Wegg | no |
| 01:56.12 | Wegg | thats for wussie Obama supporters. |
| 01:56.18 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Do you like it when companies determine what you're allowed or not allowed to see, based on their own desires? |
| 01:56.22 | fozzmoo | I'm diabetic. :) |
| 01:56.48 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Of course... not. |
| 01:57.01 | fozzmoo | Wegg: you see my /msg? |
| 01:57.01 | Wegg | My wife is diabetic |
| 01:57.03 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: So why would you be against net neutrality, then? |
| 01:57.14 | Wegg | she only likes Diet Dr. Pepper. |
| 01:57.17 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Because it sounds like a car that doesn't go anywhere. |
| 01:57.20 | Wegg | oh you can't see my reply? |
| 01:57.24 | Wegg | Oh I need to register my name. |
| 01:57.32 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Do you drive a chevy? |
| 01:57.32 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: I guess I'm admitting I don't really know anything about it. |
| 01:57.55 | vontrapp | i'm all for net neutrality |
| 01:58.15 | vontrapp | because even if i wasn't i'd know that trying to make it anything but nuetral is folly |
| 01:58.25 | tensai | I'm all for the concept of net neutrality. I'm not convinced that legislating it will make things any better. |
| 01:58.51 | vontrapp | tensai: yeah, that's a tough one |
| 01:59.04 | RedHeron | fozzmoo: Net Neutrality is anti-censorship legislation that makes it illegal for companies to engage in the internet version of "payola", and which is essentially companies deciding what people get to see or not see. A neutral network means that no traffic gets prioritized over another, other than normal shaping to maintain bandwidth thresholds. |
| 01:59.56 | vontrapp | what i think... just take away the monopolies that a few isp's enjoy, then competition will answer the net nuetrality thing |
| 02:00.13 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So... pass legislation to take away their monopolies? |
| 02:00.22 | vontrapp | no, stop subsidising them |
| 02:00.34 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Subsidizing how? |
| 02:00.46 | vontrapp | however it's done, i don't know |
| 02:00.55 | RedHeron | You have to show your work on this one. |
| 02:01.11 | RedHeron | I have evidence that shows who's in bed with whom, and believe me, it's the other way around. |
| 02:01.33 | vontrapp | i've heard several places about how these isps enjoy some form of subsidy, but i honestly don't know anything about it |
| 02:01.47 | vontrapp | just people and things, nothing notable |
| 02:01.53 | vontrapp | so i could be off the wall ;) |
| 02:02.00 | RedHeron | It probably is. |
| 02:02.05 | RedHeron | As I said, I have actual numbers. |
| 02:02.15 | RedHeron | They subsidize and line the pockets of government. |
| 02:02.19 | RedHeron | Not the other way around. |
| 02:02.23 | tensai | the best thing that the government can do is foster competition. one good way to do that is to limit the amount of legislation. |
| 02:02.23 | vontrapp | so isp is subsidizing government? |
| 02:02.33 | RedHeron | AT&T is, certainly. |
| 02:02.35 | vontrapp | well, that sounds like something to crack down on |
| 02:02.37 | RedHeron | Verizon, possibly. |
| 02:02.41 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: I'm opposed to any legislation regarding the Internet because when it comes down to it, I think the govt is powerless over the Net. |
| 02:02.46 | vontrapp | i don't think new legislation is necessary, just investigation and prosecution |
| 02:02.50 | tensai | it's easy for a big company to hire somebody to assure compliance, but it's more difficult for a small company |
| 02:02.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not illegal. |
| 02:02.55 | Wegg | Comcast, Quest etc. They all tried to stop the fiber lines Orem City put in. |
| 02:03.06 | RedHeron | Wegg: That's anti-competition. |
| 02:03.07 | Wegg | But they couldn't do it. So now I have awesome speeds :-) |
| 02:03.42 | vontrapp | buying legislation is not illegal? |
| 02:03.49 | RedHeron | tensai: It's easier to see compliance or not from the outside. |
| 02:03.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: There are legal ways to do it. |
| 02:04.04 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Read the DMCA 1998. |
| 02:04.17 | vontrapp | oh well, there's the problem, the DMCA is garbage |
| 02:04.35 | vontrapp | see what we really need is less legislation |
| 02:04.37 | RedHeron | vontrapp: So don't tell me there aren't legal ways to pad the pockets of governmnet. |
| 02:04.43 | RedHeron | government* |
| 02:04.48 | tensai | RedHeron: I don't think it's quite so easy as that |
| 02:04.53 | vontrapp | but there shouldn't be |
| 02:05.20 | RedHeron | tensai: Well, it is. I have a network admin background. You can tell what's being shaped or not on anything less than 100 routers. |
| 02:05.58 | RedHeron | At ~120 or so (not 128... heh), the difficulty becomes enormous. |
| 02:06.40 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not about what shouldn't be... it's about what is and is not, and who will make it closer to what should be (rather than who merely promises it). |
| 02:06.42 | vontrapp | compliance to what? |
| 02:07.13 | vontrapp | well, paul is the only guy i know of who would actually seek to decrease legislation, overturn bad laws and the like |
| 02:07.38 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Paul would accomplish nothing, and be blocked by Congress at every turn. |
| 02:07.58 | vontrapp | at least he could block them back |
| 02:08.07 | vontrapp | stop horrible new legislations from passing |
| 02:08.20 | vontrapp | and he would TRY to decrease legislation |
| 02:08.29 | vontrapp | trying and failing is better than not trying at all |
| 02:08.37 | RedHeron | The only way to decrease legislation is to decrease the number of legislators. |
| 02:08.42 | fozzmoo | vontrapp: You forget that Romney would be in favor of a flat or fair tax. |
| 02:08.47 | RedHeron | Which isn't going to happen. |
| 02:09.06 | fozzmoo | RedHeron: Reagan did good work of cuttingn the number of tax laws on the books |
| 02:09.10 | fozzmoo | So, it is possible. |
| 02:09.15 | vontrapp | romney also thinks we can, should, and will "win" in iraq |
| 02:09.51 | vontrapp | isn't the fair tax the one that only taxes sales? no income tax? |
| 02:10.38 | vontrapp | what's dishonest is the government spending us all into debt and stealing our money right out of our paychecks, hands, matresses, and savings accounts |
| 02:10.43 | RedHeron | vontrapp: And the more you purchase on taxable items, the more you pay. The theory is that people who buy more (the rich) would pay more. |
| 02:11.04 | vontrapp | what's unfair about that? |
| 02:11.08 | RedHeron | The reality is, it creates a loophole, since the rich people can afford to purchase outside the country, increasing our deficit. |
| 02:11.35 | vontrapp | oh i'm so sure the rich will buy from outside the country to avoid marginal taxes |
| 02:12.01 | vontrapp | if we're not cheaper than outside the country then it's not just because of a little tax |
| 02:12.13 | RedHeron | The dishonest part is that it pads the books to make it *look* like it's working, based on a flat rate, without really inspecting what is purchased (and thus the issue of monitoring arises, giving us yet another slippery slope into civil liberties issues). |
| 02:12.16 | tensai | vontrapp: the main criticizm of sales tax is that it impacts lower income folks more heavily. 6% of $1,000 is relatively a lot more than 6% of $100,000. |
| 02:12.19 | vontrapp | it's because of a bad economy and a failing dollar |
| 02:13.11 | vontrapp | so lets just tax 20+% of a 1,000 paycheck instead? |
| 02:13.19 | RedHeron | That's the FAIR tax. |
| 02:14.11 | RedHeron | How fair is that? |
| 02:14.20 | vontrapp | if "rich people" can "afford" to buy outside of the country, then why would't poor people be able to? |
| 02:14.40 | vontrapp | and if rich people were buying outside, then domestic products would lower prices to compete |
| 02:15.57 | vontrapp | the income tax is not fair, so i don't see what you're getting at |
| 02:17.03 | RedHeron | vontrapp: How would the poor buy from outside the country and import their goods tax-free? |
| 02:17.12 | tensai | vontrapp: as it currently sits the income tax is more fair according to the criticism I just made because it's a sliding scale as you earn more |
| 02:18.01 | tensai | and in fact you really don't start paying income tax until you earn quite a bit |
| 02:19.35 | vontrapp | i don't see how that's fair |
| 02:19.50 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Take an economics class. |
| 02:20.08 | tensai | vontrapp: stepping back a few conversations, telephone companies are subsidised by the universal service fund. it's a tax that is paid back to the telco so they can offset the cost of rural service. |
| 02:20.22 | vontrapp | why is it fair to charge a person a different amount according to how much they make? |
| 02:20.33 | fozzmoo | It's not. :) |
| 02:20.48 | RedHeron | Why is any tax fair? |
| 02:21.01 | vontrapp | a different _percentage_, a different share |
| 02:21.45 | Tene | all taxation is based on coercive violence. I thought that that was pretty well established. |
| 02:21.57 | RedHeron | Tene: established how? |
| 02:22.17 | Tene | Isn't that the difference between taxation and donations, by definition? |
| 02:22.19 | fozzmoo | I'm all for consumption taxes. |
| 02:22.32 | fozzmoo | it's really not in the govt's best interest to tax people's income. |
| 02:22.56 | tensai | no taxation without syncopation! |
| 02:23.29 | fozzmoo | Tene: You mean you don't feel charitable on April 15th? :) |
| 02:23.56 | Tene | I'm glad to pay taxes. I like many of the services that the government provides. |
| 02:24.03 | Tene | It's not optional for me to do so, though. |
| 02:24.12 | tensai | mark cuban proposed a progressive sales tax, so as items get more expensive they also get taxed more |
| 02:24.35 | tensai | Tene: depends on how fast you can run |
| 02:24.46 | vontrapp | that's called a percentage |
| 02:24.48 | vontrapp | genious |
| 02:25.27 | Sargun | I am a genius |
| 02:25.33 | tensai | vontrapp: you missed my point. things that are 0<x<1000 are taxed at say 5%. 1001<x<10000 are taxed at 10%. etc. etc. |
| 02:25.48 | vontrapp | i don't see the point |
| 02:25.57 | vontrapp | why would you do that? |
| 02:26.19 | tensai | someone who wants a 185" plasma tv is going to buy it regardless of the taxes |
| 02:26.28 | RedHeron | So you pay $3,000 in tax on a $30,000 car, but only $5 in tax on the $100 cloth seat covers? |
| 02:27.11 | Tene | So what happens if I buy four quarters of a car and assemble them myself? |
| 02:27.26 | vontrapp | so this logic goes, becuase it would conceivably be harder for lower income families to buy a car... we'll make sure they have to pay even more taxes so it's even harder for them to enjoy the luxuries the rich enjoy? |
| 02:27.56 | RedHeron | That's why I'm in favor of optional donations. |
| 02:28.04 | RedHeron | Which are tax-deductible. :D |
| 02:29.33 | RedHeron | Well... by definition, paying tax, thus not really deductible, but hey, it was funny at that moment. |
| 02:35.03 | tensai | vontrapp: the idea is to set the scaling such that lower income people pay a lot less taxes. somebody making $15k a year is not going to buy a BMW no matter how long he saves. so having a higher tax rate on BMWs is a non-issue to him. |
| 02:35.37 | tensai | http://www.blogmaverick.com/2007/12/11/warren-buffett-taxes-and-the-presidency/ |
| 02:35.39 | brac | [Warren Buffett , Taxes and the Presidency - Blog Maverick] |
| 02:35.48 | fozzmoo | It still penalizes people making more money. |
| 02:36.03 | fozzmoo | It's in the govt's best interest to encourage people to make more money. |
| 02:36.09 | vontrapp | but what about something that otherwise _would_ be maybe just within affordable range, but now is not because it's more expensive _and_ has higher tax? |
| 02:36.42 | vontrapp | it just makes no sense to me |
| 02:36.49 | fozzmoo | me neither. |
| 02:37.03 | fozzmoo | But, vontrapp, you and I are conservatives hate mongers. |
| 02:37.15 | vontrapp | :) |
| 02:37.28 | vontrapp | SPC, omg |
| 02:37.55 | vontrapp | what does not conservative on civil liberties mean? |
| 02:38.47 | tensai | re-reading the posting he's actually asking for the scale to be much higher than I recalled |
| 02:38.49 | fozzmoo | Conservatives don't believe in those. |
| 02:39.07 | fozzmoo | Conservatives believe the govt should spy on everyone, you know. |
| 02:39.14 | tensai | I knew it! |
| 02:39.19 | fozzmoo | Patriot Act is just the beginning. |
| 02:39.20 | vontrapp | of course |
| 02:39.48 | tensai | did you all see the bruce scheier post about security and privacy not being opposites? great stuff. |
| 02:40.10 | tensai | http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/security_vs_pri.html |
| 02:40.12 | brac | [Schneier on Security: Security vs. Privacy] |
| 02:43.07 | vontrapp | so those nuggets of wisdom from centuries ago "one who would trade liberty for security will get neither"? |
| 02:43.15 | vontrapp | um, are actually correct? |
| 02:43.38 | tensai | ding ding ding |
| 03:01.56 | RedHeron | "Conservative on civil liberties" means "favors slow changes over time" rather than "favors rapid changes as the situation demands" (the liberal viewpoint). I am neither liberal nor conservative on civil liberties, as I see that they may be applied without changes to many situations where more liberally-minded or conservatively-swinging judges have failed to be able to see the long-term effects of. |
| 03:02.01 | Tene | wtf. X keeps taking up >90% cpu. |
| 03:02.43 | RedHeron | Less bling? |
| 03:03.59 | vontrapp | hmm, i'm conservative on civil liberties in that we should actually conserve them, not give them away |
| 03:04.41 | Tene | RedHeron: I'm not using any bling. |
| 03:04.59 | Tene | Just Fedora's standard Gnome setup. |
| 03:05.02 | Tene | nv driver. |
| 03:05.17 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The liberal vs. conservative argument is merely an expression of the rapidity of changes. |
| 03:05.40 | RedHeron | vontrapp: At least, where civil liberties are concerned. |
| 03:06.10 | RedHeron | Tene: Might be the nv driver, as I've had that exact problem under gnome. |
| 03:06.14 | vontrapp | well, if i say i'm conservative concerning civil liberties, that's not what i will mean |
| 03:06.33 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Are you liberal? |
| 03:06.37 | vontrapp | no |
| 03:06.49 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Were the founding fathers liberal? |
| 03:07.17 | vontrapp | by definition of speed of change? |
| 03:07.24 | vontrapp | in that case, in some ways |
| 03:07.36 | vontrapp | they provisioned for ammendments |
| 03:07.59 | vontrapp | but they also strictly meant for the constitution to be followed at all costs in any circumstance |
| 03:08.04 | RedHeron | vontrapp: But is that rapid change, or is that slow change? |
| 03:08.34 | vontrapp | i guess it's slow change because it has to go through a process, if that's what you're getting at |
| 03:08.51 | RedHeron | vontrapp: The real answer here is that there were both liberals and conservatives that founded the country. |
| 03:09.08 | RedHeron | Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, and was also the drafter of the Constitution. |
| 03:09.16 | RedHeron | Ben Franklin was a conservative. |
| 03:09.23 | vontrapp | of course, haha, you got me, i feel silly now |
| 03:10.05 | RedHeron | Don't feel cornered by "Only A or B" arguments. Sometimes, both can occur. |
| 03:10.35 | RedHeron | It is possible to be both liberal and conservative. |
| 03:10.50 | vontrapp | i still don't think we should give away our civil liberties with any modicum of speed |
| 03:11.09 | RedHeron | That's "conservationist" and not "conservative". |
| 03:11.18 | RedHeron | Slightly different concept. |
| 03:11.58 | Tene | RedHeron: seems to have gone away now that I'm running e17 instead of gnome. |
| 03:12.02 | Tene | We'll see if it sticks. |
| 03:12.23 | RedHeron | Tene: The problem is definitely in gnome, but my problem is that I can't stand the other interfaces. |
| 03:12.27 | vontrapp | well, i still don't get then what "not concervative on civil liberties" means |
| 03:12.50 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Both conservative and liberal = moderate (where I am). |
| 03:13.26 | RedHeron | I am conservative in that I think things should be thought through to their end; but I'm also liberal in that if something needs change quickly, it should be changed. |
| 03:14.07 | RedHeron | For example, abolition of the PATRIOT Act should be a mandate, not something that should be backed down from slowly over time. |
| 03:14.37 | RedHeron | But I'm against a rapid pullout in the Iraq war, because we've already seen a demonstration of the kinds of instability that breeds. |
| 03:14.59 | RedHeron | It's a matter of what the result will be, rather than the immediate want. |
| 03:15.11 | Wegg | when we went into Iraq. . . oil was $25 a barrel. Now its $100 |
| 03:15.14 | RedHeron | Unless the immediate want is the right one, in which case I'm all for it. |
| 03:15.15 | vontrapp | well, that's all fine, but if "conservative" processes were followed in the first place, there would be no patriot act |
| 03:15.24 | RedHeron | Wegg: Calculate for inflation. |
| 03:15.27 | Wegg | I'd say we couldn't possibly have made it any MORE undstable. |
| 03:15.53 | RedHeron | Okay, 2 arguments at once... I need time to answer. |
| 03:16.57 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're still confusing conservationism with conservatism. Liberal mindsets would not have allowed the PATRIOT Act in the first place. Conservative mindsets would have, but it would have been for only a short duration. |
| 03:16.58 | Wegg | inflation is caused by the government printing money out of thin air, devaluing our currancy. Gold and Oil have stayed the same. If we had stuck to gold and silver being the only form of currency outlined in our constitution. . .there wouldn't be inflation. |
| 03:17.22 | RedHeron | Wegg: Untrue, because other economies are based on things other than gold or silver. |
| 03:17.37 | vontrapp | anyway, i'm not conservative, i'm constitutionalist and ocnservationist |
| 03:17.38 | tensai | the values of gold and silver are as arbitrary as anything else |
| 03:18.08 | RedHeron | Wegg: We would completely destabilize 14 countries if we pull out in anything under 16 months. To be safe, I'd even say 20, based on the information I have as a political party officer. |
| 03:18.45 | RedHeron | tensai: Well spoken, sir! And true. The value of everything is based on decision and consensus for that decision, reinforced by continuation of that consensus. |
| 03:18.46 | vontrapp | what's the worst that could happen with "destabilizing"? |
| 03:18.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: World War III. |
| 03:18.54 | vontrapp | we won't even be there |
| 03:19.00 | Wegg | So if we got out of Japan, Korea, Germany. . . all totally kick ass 1st world countries. . . it would de-stabalize those countries? |
| 03:19.32 | vontrapp | that's just fearmongering |
| 03:19.36 | RedHeron | Wegg: Korea, yes. Japan/Germany, possibly. Iraq, absolutely. |
| 03:19.57 | RedHeron | It's not fearmongering when there's data and history both to back it. |
| 03:20.01 | vontrapp | so iraq is so important and so unstable that pulling out of it would cause wwiii? |
| 03:20.29 | vontrapp | it's a little country that doesn't even want us |
| 03:20.31 | RedHeron | vontrapp: It's not a matter of importance, it's a matter of interdependence. |
| 03:20.49 | vontrapp | well where's this interdependence talk when we go INTO the wars? |
| 03:20.59 | Wegg | yea I don't follow that. It would be painful for the people there. . . but dragging this out. . . and using THEIR country as OUR front line is only causing more problems than it is helping. |
| 03:21.03 | vontrapp | yet we do that anyway |
| 03:21.42 | Wegg | was a HUGE mistake going to war. Massive. Fix the mistake. Get out. |
| 03:22.04 | Wegg | We will have to suffer for our mistake. But it will get fixed. |
| 03:22.12 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Okay, interdependence caused us to go into Afghanistan. And then the decision was made to go into Iraq. Iraq was not a justifiable risk. |
| 03:22.49 | RedHeron | Rather than trying to get you to understand (even if you disagree with) my position. |
| 03:23.04 | tensai | I agree with Wegg. it was a retarded move to go to war. I was against it from day one (not that it mattered). but we can't just walk away and wash our hands of it. |
| 03:23.39 | vontrapp | ok, go ahead and explain how pulling out right away would cuase wwIII |
| 03:23.42 | RedHeron | Obama made a speech about how stupid it was to get into the Iraq war in 2002, and was immediately given a reprimand by Congress. |
| 03:23.55 | RedHeron | Obama was then elected to Congress in the next election. |
| 03:24.11 | Wegg | tensai. . . in Vietnam we were DRIVEN out. And now. . . we are trading partners with them. |
| 03:24.17 | RedHeron | Explanation on Iraq -> WWIII (typing) |
| 03:25.58 | RedHeron | Destabilization occurs when rapid changes force a society to cope with new things. When that "new thing" is a common enemy, it tends to unite, rather than divide. In the case of Islamic culture, that division is more pronounced, as is the unification. One is either best friends with, or bitter enemies toward, another. (continuing) |
| 03:27.14 | RedHeron | With our entry into Iraq, we unified those who had slight leanings toward al-Qaeda, essentially feeding our enemy the very thing they needed in order to survive, in the name of corporate profit (this is the definition of "fasism" by the way). (continuing) |
| 03:28.18 | Sargun | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:28.32 | tensai | Sargun: you don't say! |
| 03:29.33 | Sargun | tensai, surprising, isn't it? |
| 03:29.36 | RedHeron | By withdrawing rapidly, we would polarize the entire society into "favored" or "disfavored" by the government in power (a government that Bush put into place, FWIW, in spite of the "free" elections), and this would lead to a civil war which would spread to neighboring regions as people began to once again use religion for justification of their positions. |
| 03:29.40 | Sargun | http://xbmodder.us/pyportal/welcome.py |
| 03:29.43 | brac | [~ |
| 03:29.43 | brac | ~say You have a strong appeal for members of your own sex. |
| 03:29.54 | ibot | You have a strong appeal for members of your own sex. |
| 03:29.54 | brac | ~] |
| 03:29.55 | Sargun | ibot, onjoin http://xbmodder.us/pyportal/welcome.py |
| 03:29.55 | brac | [~ |
| 03:29.55 | brac | ~say Your reasoning powers are good, and you are a fairly good planner. |
| 03:29.55 | ibot | Your reasoning powers are good, and you are a fairly good planner. |
| 03:30.30 | RedHeron | (completed, awaiting responses). |
| 03:30.54 | RedHeron | An unstable Middle-East with nukes... fun, fun, fun! |
| 03:31.14 | Sargun | hehe |
| 03:31.27 | vontrapp | so assuming that iraqi's are so inherintly violent and stubborn, that's why it would be extra terrible to pull out, because they're so determined to fight they would be sure to escelate it to wwIII |
| 03:31.38 | Wegg | RedHeron, Israel would not want the region to fall apart. Nor would Iran, Soudi Arabia etc. |
| 03:31.53 | RedHeron | Okay, so the point is once again missed completely. |
| 03:32.18 | vontrapp | well, you're the one basing the argument on characteristics of the iraqi's |
| 03:32.19 | RedHeron | Read the Q'uran. Do some study on the Middle East. Spend some time there, just talking to people. Then get back to me. |
| 03:32.34 | vontrapp | thing is, a world war requires participation of the world |
| 03:32.38 | Wegg | They would have to deal with Iraq's civil war and do their best to protect themselves. They are all strong independent countries with their own militaries and self interests. |
| 03:32.40 | vontrapp | not just iraqi's |
| 03:33.07 | vontrapp | RedHeron: is that what you have done? |
| 03:33.19 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Yes. |
| 03:33.28 | vontrapp | just checking |
| 03:33.35 | RedHeron | Iraq's civil war becomes a vulnerability for Saudi Arabia and Iran, who are then vulnerable to influences from al-Qaeda |
| 03:33.38 | RedHeron | etc. |
| 03:34.08 | vontrapp | but that's all just conjecture, and wwIII could happen regardless of what we do |
| 03:34.20 | RedHeron | vontrapp: We may already have triggered it. |
| 03:34.31 | Wegg | I went to Israel in 2005 on a job. AMAZING country. Very cool people with strong opinions and will and big fat brains. They can handle themselves. I never saw so many automatic weapons in one place in my life. :-) That region would NOT "de-stabilize". IMO. |
| 03:34.33 | RedHeron | vontrapp: But 16 months is far better than 2 months. |
| 03:34.51 | RedHeron | Wegg: Israel is not the issue, nor are they the strongest power in the region. |
| 03:34.58 | vontrapp | so if wwIII could happen regardless of what we do, then we should at least have our troops in our own country to protect ourselves |
| 03:35.12 | Wegg | its always the issue for Islam. |
| 03:35.54 | RedHeron | vontrapp: You're still ignoring the idea of destabilization being a bad thing for us. |
| 03:36.07 | vontrapp | it's already destabilized |
| 03:36.18 | RedHeron | vontrapp: No, it's only "possibly" destabilized. |
| 03:36.29 | vontrapp | i happen to be of the opinion that pulling out will only help them restabilize faster |
| 03:36.50 | RedHeron | vontrapp: Then you're a fool, and a short-sighted one, and I'm done with bantering and mincing words. |
| 03:37.18 | RedHeron | If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, period. |
| 03:37.45 | vontrapp | i plan to get out of iraq and build our own defenses |
| 03:38.14 | vontrapp | alas, i can't do anything with that plan |
| 03:39.37 | Wegg | I agree with vontrapp. If we constantly meddle, then no "hero" will rise within their own ranks. They need their own George Washington, John Adams, Abraham Linkon. (spelling?) Right now with our imposed government. . . no one trusts it. It didn't come from them. It will always leave a bad taste in their mouth because they see America and its people as an enemy to their religion. |
| 03:39.47 | vontrapp | anyway, i think arguing that we can't get out right away is beside the point, i think it's just a red herring to pacify people when the government isn't doing anything _to_ get out |
| 03:39.51 | tensai | Wegg: lincoln |
| 03:39.58 | Wegg | tnks |
| 03:40.08 | tensai | Wegg: "thanks" ;) |
| 03:40.18 | Wegg | THANK YOU :-) |
| 03:40.38 | vontrapp | Wegg: it's actually tnx, don't listen to tensai |
| 03:41.21 | RedHeron | As I said, I'm done with the short-sighted bent of this conversation. More on topic, anyone watch the funeral? |
| 03:42.30 | RedHeron | I'll take that as a "no" then. |
| 03:42.41 | tensai | RedHeron: my 2 year-old wanted to see it |
| 03:42.50 | tensai | but we changed the channel and he got so upset |
| 03:42.55 | RedHeron | Heh. |
| 03:43.19 | RedHeron | I didn't watch it, but that's not saying much, since I don't watch TV. |
| 03:44.13 | RedHeron | So, I guess I've been at work most of the day, myself. |
| 03:44.53 | RedHeron | I miss coding. :-( |
| 03:45.35 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:50.09 | vontrapp | RedHeron: you're for obama? |
| 03:50.32 | vontrapp | and he wants to get out in 16-20mo, right? |
| 03:52.09 | RedHeron | Right. |
| 03:52.16 | RedHeron | He's pushing for 16. |
| 03:52.21 | RedHeron | I think 20 is wiser. |
| 03:52.54 | vontrapp | at this point i'm still favoring obama as my second choice, getting out in 16mo is still way better than 100 years or whenever we "win", whatever that means |
| 03:53.24 | RedHeron | The war in Iraq is not winnable, because we're the ones creating the enemy. |
| 03:53.34 | vontrapp | yep |
| 03:53.49 | RedHeron | That's the difference between immediate pullout and "when we win". |
| 03:54.48 | RedHeron | If we don't give the enemy time to come to the realization that we're withdrawing, then they don't have time to realize who their enemies really are... because mostly they don't understand a world with no enemies. |
| 03:55.11 | RedHeron | There are exceptions, but that's true in a broadly general, sweeping way. |
| 04:00.10 | *** join/#utah Zelut_ (n=christer@kuyaedz.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:19.03 | Wegg | Our country will go broke if we continue our "empire" around the world. But . . . your right. 16 months vs. 100 years. I'll take the 16 months. |
| 04:24.49 | RedHeron | So, if Clinton had a shorter plan, she'd be more desirable as a candidate? |
| 04:25.06 | RedHeron | In spite of her obvious lack of regard for democracy? |
| 04:42.04 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 04:42.32 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 04:49.40 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 04:49.46 | elg | -chat groundhogs day |
| 04:49.46 | brac | groundhogs day |
| 04:49.54 | elg | -chat groundhog's day |
| 04:49.54 | brac | groundhog's day |
| 04:50.00 | elg | -chat did he |
| 04:50.01 | brac | did he get in the wet dog food and work through this debugging excercise |
| 04:50.06 | elg | -chat see his |
| 04:50.06 | brac | see his reaction when I first saw _The Secret_ when a normal PSTN type number 1NPANXX1234@example.com and I can get a server more than I trust to properly go off wildly convicting innocent people. |
| 04:50.20 | elg | :) |
| 04:50.31 | RedHeron | -chat make this |
| 04:50.32 | brac | make this channel was suggesting that you can pick their poison |
| 04:50.36 | elg | -chat |
| 04:50.37 | brac | you don't want it to print to a specific job. |
| 04:51.03 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> Off Topic and Beyond | http://plug.org/irc | Channel log @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | sjansen's latest project is called SUCK! | Happy almost-belated groundhog day |
| 04:51.52 | elg | six more weeks of winter |
| 04:51.56 | elg | could you tell? |
| 04:52.00 | elg | -weather kpvu |
| 04:52.01 | brac | 17 minutes ago, on Sun Feb 03 04:35:00 UTC 2008, the wind was calm at KPVU. The temperature was -6 degrees Celsius (21 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1010 hPa (29.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 79.3%. There were broken clouds at a height of 2743 meters (9000 feet). |
| 04:52.34 | RedHeron | It's only -4 here. |
| 04:52.46 | elg | -weather klru |
| 04:52.47 | brac | 19 minutes ago, on Sun Feb 03 04:34:00 UTC 2008, the wind was blowing at a speed of 5.66 meters per second (12.66 miles per hour) from the West/Southwest at KLRU. The temperature was 11 degrees Celsius (52 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1015 hPa (30.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 25.5%. The sky was clear. |
| 04:52.59 | RedHeron | Wow! |
| 04:53.00 | elg | balmy today |
| 04:53.01 | RedHeron | Where's that? |
| 04:53.06 | elg | las cruces, nm |
| 04:53.14 | RedHeron | Makes sense. |
| 04:53.24 | RedHeron | -weather kcpw |
| 04:53.24 | brac | 16 minutes ago, on Sun Feb 03 04:37:00 UTC 2008, the wind was blowing at a speed of 9.77 meters per second (21.86 miles per hour), with gusts to 14.40 meters per second (32.22 miles per hour), from the Southwest at KCPW. The temperature was -12 degrees Celsius (10 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1010 hPa (29.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 60.9%. There were overcast |
| 04:53.25 | brac | clouds at a height of 30 meters (100 feet). |
| 04:54.52 | RedHeron | -weather ktkk |
| 04:54.53 | brac | couldn't find weather data for KTKK |
| 04:55.13 | RedHeron | Heh... that's because they don't have any! (I was just checking.) |
| 04:56.04 | RedHeron | -weather klat |
| 04:56.05 | brac | couldn't find weather data for KLAT |
| 05:11.48 | elg | -weather panc |
| 05:11.48 | brac | 19 minutes ago, on Sun Feb 03 04:53:00 UTC 2008, the wind was blowing at a speed of 1.54 meters per second (3.45 miles per hour) from the South at PANC. The temperature was -19.4 degrees Celsius (-2.9 degrees Fahrenheit), and the pressure was 1006 hPa (29.00 inHg). The relative humidity was 78.3%. There were a few clouds at a height of 1981 meters (6500 feet). |
| 05:13.55 | elg | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw |
| 05:16.44 | elg | i wonder if I could do that using my iSight and e.g. some red dots on the corners of my glasses |
| 05:26.05 | elg | dude, I think I could totally do it |
| 05:26.20 | elg | get myself some of those LEDs mounted on the corners of my glasses or baseball cap or something |
| 05:27.02 | elg | write a program that determines the position of the points in the webcam frame |
| 05:27.24 | elg | and then calculates the head position using simple math of the sort i learned in my graphics class |
| 05:28.01 | Tene | elg: do it! |
| 05:28.43 | elg | the only thing I wonder is how do you tell if the head is rotated or simply further away? if the distance between the points is the only thing you go on |
| 05:29.24 | RedHeron | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/ FTW |
| 05:29.26 | brac | [Johnny Chung Lee - Human Computer Interaction Research] |
| 05:29.30 | RedHeron | That's an AWESOME hack! |
| 05:30.16 | RedHeron | elg: oblique angle of the beams would cut off at some point. |
| 05:30.28 | elg | if they're directed enough |
| 05:30.53 | RedHeron | If you turn your head, one beam would eventually be cut off by the edge of the head, the glasses frame, etc. |
| 05:31.02 | elg | true |
| 05:31.08 | RedHeron | Depends on the sensitivity of the remote. |
| 05:31.22 | elg | well in this case I'm thinking of just using a webcam (iSight) |
| 05:31.46 | RedHeron | If one LED is farther away, that could be head tracking, but then you're not looking at the screen. |
| 05:31.57 | RedHeron | I don't think it's as meaningful. |
| 05:32.06 | elg | well, in my use case it could be |
| 05:32.09 | RedHeron | Ah. |
| 05:32.18 | elg | i want to look around the virtual cockpit in flightgear |
| 05:32.33 | RedHeron | But if you're not looking at the screen...? |
| 05:32.38 | elg | obviously, you only have so much of a window - you can't look out the side windows for example |
| 05:33.08 | elg | but if turning your head to the side meant rotate the view (you can still see with your peripheral how much you've rotated and when to stop) |
| 05:33.18 | elg | then you could look side to side with just head movement |
| 05:34.21 | elg | anyway, i'm more concerned with rotating your head slightly (e.g. to look at the corner of the screen or something) causing a zoom-out effect |
| 05:35.27 | RedHeron | I still say it could be accomplished with simple tracking of one LED relative to the other. |
| 05:35.51 | RedHeron | Though only meaningful if you're sitting a specified ratio from the screen. |
| 05:37.40 | elg | yeah, if you consider the distance from the camera to be constant then you can definitely tell rotation just by how far apart the leds are |
| 05:37.42 | elg | and vice versa |
| 05:38.13 | RedHeron | So... calibration on use? |
| 05:40.47 | Tene | elg: size of the dot |
| 05:40.58 | Tene | make the dots large enough that the camera can track their relative size. |
| 05:44.53 | Sargun | nick125, Are you phonable? |
| 05:45.02 | nick125 | Sargun: sort of, one sec |
| 05:45.06 | nick125 | my treo is charging |
| 05:45.18 | Sargun | ok, tell me once you can pick it up |
| 05:45.19 | Sargun | ok? |
| 05:49.37 | fozzmoo | Argh. |
| 05:49.54 | fozzmoo | ld cannot find -lgsm |
| 06:03.17 | rsimpkins | elg: Around? |
| 06:04.57 | Sargun | bhttp://www.xbmodder.us/Heart.sketch.png |
| 06:04.58 | Sargun | nick125, |
| 06:04.59 | Sargun | nick125, http://www.xbmodder.us/Heart.sketch.png |
| 06:05.12 | nick125 | LOL |
| 06:09.33 | rsimpkins | Sargun: Just print that on a T-Shirt, and where it around. |
| 06:09.40 | rsimpkins | I think people will really like it. |
| 06:20.54 | *** join/#utah wigamuffin (n=ishyuki@67.41.175.220) |
| 06:26.25 | Sargun | uhh |
| 06:26.32 | Sargun | rsimpkins, uh, uh... |
| 06:29.48 | nick125 | Sargun: I really need that extra Treo battery |
| 06:29.57 | Sargun | did you die? |
| 06:30.00 | nick125 | yeah |
| 06:30.14 | nick125 | If you want to call me back in about 1 minute or so, that'd be great |
| 06:30.30 | Sargun | ok |
| 06:30.33 | Sargun | tell me when its clear |
| 06:31.06 | nick125 | k, got the hotsync cable plugged in |
| 06:31.27 | nick125 | too bad I have to order the treo battery from telesales |
| 06:31.31 | nick125 | otherwise I'd order it now |
| 06:31.38 | nick125 | Sargun: go |
| 06:32.10 | nick125 | I'll probably order my battery on monday |
| 06:49.25 | lakshmi | Sargun call me |
| 06:55.32 | lakshmi | sargun! |
| 06:56.40 | nick125 | Sargun: I was about to say "don't hang up on me |
| 13:48.55 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=redbeard@c-76-27-48-109.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:48.41 | *** join/#utah jlp_work (n=jlp@gateway.FREECAKENETWORKS.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 14:48.41 | *** join/#utah Supaplex (i=supaplex@166-70-62-194.ip.xmission.com) |
| 15:48.43 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 16:03.06 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 16:04.02 | tensai | ~lart actiontec |
| 16:04.02 | ibot | acting on orders from an unspecified client drags actiontec into court suing for $200 million |
| 16:18.50 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_ (n=tristanb@oalug/member/tristanbob) |
| 16:32.00 | elg | hmm. jesse notes that yahoo owns zimbra and "How in the world is Microsoft set up to handle such an acquisition?" |
| 16:32.13 | elg | well let's think.... maybe by nuking it? |
| 16:32.31 | elg | or worse, malnourishing it or micromanaging it into the ground |
| 16:46.02 | *** join/#utah tristanbob__ (n=tristanb@c-98-202-37-242.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 17:47.46 | RyanE | so many ways they could screw it up... |
| 17:48.59 | tensai | at this point it's just a bid, right? nothing is set in stone. |
| 17:54.16 | RyanE | Our ward just cancelled church for today. Lots of snow... |
| 17:54.51 | vontrapp | RyanE: where'sat? |
| 17:54.56 | RyanE | Highland. |
| 17:55.09 | RyanE | I've only had it happen once before, when I was first married 15 years ago, in Provo. |
| 17:55.37 | RyanE | Half of our ward is located on quite a steep hill with only one way up/down. |
| 17:56.34 | herlo | RyanE: wuss's |
| 17:56.41 | herlo | :) |
| 17:59.50 | RyanE | I was shovelling earlier, and by the time I got done with my sidewalk, there was another 1/2" of snow on it. |
| 18:02.09 | herlo | RyanE: that's what you get for owning a large driveway |
| 18:02.28 | RyanE | oh, I was ONLY talking about the SIDEWALK... I'm not even *considering* doing the driveway... |
| 18:02.35 | RyanE | my snowblower is broken... :( |
| 18:02.44 | herlo | RyanE: ooh, woW! |
| 18:02.58 | RyanE | http://ericksonfamily.com:88 |
| 18:02.59 | brac | [Network Camera] |
| 18:03.16 | RyanE | click 'Single' |
| 18:03.18 | herlo | after this winter I completely doubt gl0bal warming :) |
| 18:04.08 | herlo | haha! I need to get somethign like that at my house! |
| 18:04.52 | RyanE | yeah, I like the porch cam. I used it as part of our company demo in Las Vegas. Fun to see my kids shovelling in Utah... |
| 18:05.02 | *** join/#utah mecworks__ (n=marc@wap.mecworks.com) |
| 18:07.12 | herlo | hehe |
| 18:07.21 | herlo | that'd be cool. Was that demo for CES? |
| 18:13.46 | RyanE | yeah. |
| 18:13.57 | RyanE | You can view IP Cameras on our touchpanels. |
| 18:14.05 | RyanE | and pan/tilt, etc. them |
| 18:25.26 | herlo | its nice |
| 18:25.26 | herlo | I don't think I'll ever go to CES again, sadly |
| 18:31.06 | herlo | RyanE: have you seen tripit.com? |
| 18:32.27 | Sargun | uh |
| 18:46.58 | herlo | RyanE: good bye |
| 18:47.35 | Sargun | hi |
| 18:51.54 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | ok, 802.1q is about vlans, and includes things about "trunking". 802.3ad is about link aggregation and also talks about "trunking"... Why must there be the same term for two different things?! |
| 18:52.48 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | then if you start reading about phone networks, there is trunking there too! Completely different! |
| 18:52.51 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | </rant> |
| 19:03.54 | Sargun | PRoGRaMMeRQ, they are very very different things... |
| 19:04.50 | PRoGRaMMeRQ | the network/phone difference is way huge, so its ok... but two types of "trunking" in the 802 spec seems excessive to me. :) |
| 19:17.41 | Sargun | heh |
| 19:17.54 | Sargun | 802.* is pretty annoying to read |
| 19:31.44 | *** join/#utah dataw0lf (n=stderr@71.94.83.183) |
| 20:13.09 | *** join/#utah undertakingyou (n=will@undertakingyou.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 21:49.25 | *** join/#utah sent_inel (n=sentinel@unaffiliated/sentinel/x-456132) |
| 21:50.35 | *** part/#utah sent_inel (n=sentinel@unaffiliated/sentinel/x-456132) |
| 22:13.59 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:13.59 | ibot | stalks fozzmoo, hiding in the shadows and sorting through his garbage. |
| 22:18.58 | Sargun | ~lart fozzmoo |
| 22:18.58 | ibot | accelerates a free AOL cd to 50,000 rpm and lets fozzmoo feel it |
| 22:19.14 | Sargun | ~lart lakshmi |
| 22:19.14 | ibot | takes a big bite out of lakshmi's jugular vein |
| 22:19.29 | lakshmi | ooh jugular vein |
| 22:19.32 | lakshmi | nice |
| 22:19.41 | lakshmi | ~lart sargun |
| 22:19.41 | ibot | lowers sargun's priority |
| 22:19.46 | fozzmoo | ~lart Sargun |
| 22:19.46 | ibot | whips out his power stapler and staples Sargun's foot to the floor |
| 22:19.50 | fozzmoo | WAHOO! |
| 22:20.08 | Sargun | ~lart Sargun |
| 22:20.08 | ibot | whips out his power stapler and staples Sargun's foot to the floor |
| 22:30.32 | nick125 | lol |
| 22:32.28 | Sargun | a phone |
| 22:32.34 | Sargun | i have several others |
| 22:37.43 | Sargun | ouch |
| 22:37.44 | Sargun | that hurt |
| 22:37.47 | Sargun | that's kinky |
| 22:39.35 | Sargun | ouch |
| 22:41.10 | Sargun | you would have to pay someone to take that |
| 22:41.24 | nick125 | you just don't tell them, that's all |
| 22:41.40 | Sargun | haha |
| 22:41.44 | Sargun | "Its a phone!" |
| 22:41.57 | nick125 | "BETTER THAN IPHONE" |
| 22:42.08 | Sargun | god, I saw a CL ad saying "Verizon phone for sale" |
| 22:42.15 | Sargun | "Its a Motorola Verizon" |
| 22:42.29 | nick125 | that model? :P |
| 22:43.19 | Sargun | no, it said model was Verizon |
| 22:43.38 | Sargun | they were like, I paid $200 for it |
| 22:43.51 | Sargun | I wanna sell it for $150 |
| 22:43.53 | Sargun | o.O |
| 22:44.35 | nick125 | link? |
| 22:46.45 | Sargun | nick125, how do these numbers look to you: |
| 22:46.46 | Sargun | http://networkings.pastebin.com/m443e84f5 |
| 22:46.50 | Sargun | I'm looking for it |
| 22:48.46 | Sargun | nick125, http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ele/561796373.html |
| 22:49.06 | Sargun | Oh god: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/ele/561789208.html |
| 22:49.33 | Sargun | Doesn't the N95 run Maemo? |
| 23:04.39 | Sargun | http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/561705473.html |
| 23:05.12 | levi | Good afternoon. |
| 23:05.56 | Sargun | levi, bad afternoon |
| 23:20.09 | findlay | Good afternoon, Dr Levi. |
| 23:24.59 | levi | Wassup, findlay? |
| 23:25.47 | findlay | levi: I've been practicing lately, been getting my form and technique back |
| 23:25.59 | findlay | not that there was much to start with |
| 23:26.48 | *** join/#utah nick125_treo (i=upirc@pdpc/supporter/student/nick125) |
| 23:26.51 | atoponce | wow |
| 23:26.51 | levi | I need to practice guitar. |
| 23:27.01 | atoponce | there's discussion in here that isn't ibot noise |
| 23:27.12 | levi | Is there? |
| 23:27.16 | nick125_treo | Sargun: hey |
| 23:27.30 | atoponce | i guess ibot could be controlling findlay |
| 23:34.08 | elg | -chat |
| 23:34.09 | brac | Failing that, and it won't tell you that it is |
| 23:35.14 | *** join/#utah ccjoe (n=ccjoe@75-169-12-84.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 23:39.08 | levi | -chat |
| 23:39.10 | brac | er my flight yesterday. It works |
| 23:39.28 | levi | Speaking of working, my parser does not. :/ |
| 23:39.53 | levi | I'm going to have to rewrite the parser monad so it doesn't do infinite lookahead. |
| 23:40.01 | levi | Otherwise, it will be rather difficult to debug. |
| 23:43.05 | *** join/#utah cbrown (n=cbrown@fw.vpxp.com) |
| 23:46.00 | *** join/#utah tripzero (n=tripzero@c-67-177-46-190.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:46.28 | levi | Oh, heh, I found my problem. |
| 23:47.26 | tripzero | levi: still working on the compiler? |
| 23:47.41 | levi | tripzero: Yeah, I'll be working on it all semester. |
| 23:47.54 | Sargun | Hiiii |
| 23:47.55 | levi | The parser is now accepting valid programs, which is good. |
| 23:48.05 | levi | I just need to get it to populate a symbol table and I'll be done. |
| 23:59.28 | tripzero | nice |
| 23:59.53 | tripzero | what's the easiest way to convert an int to hex? |
