| 00:01.25 | levi | "So forget English." |
| 00:02.01 | levi | I reason along the same lines against people who want to make programming languages too much like English. ;) |
| 00:06.39 | elg | levi: hear hear |
| 00:06.46 | elg | vontrapp and I were talking about that yesterday |
| 00:06.58 | elg | in the context of rails and ruby |
| 00:07.20 | elg | rails is too englishish for my taste. not that I can't happily use rails, just that I tend to do things the nonrails way when I do :) |
| 00:07.43 | levi | Making your programming language like English is just going to mislead people into thinking they understand what's going on and how it works. |
| 00:08.18 | elg | and lead to ambiguity and confusion |
| 00:08.27 | levi | Right. |
| 00:08.39 | elg | "readable" and "natural language" are NOT equivalent in programming |
| 00:09.24 | levi | Of course, you can take the argument too far and end up with APL. |
| 00:09.30 | elg | or perl |
| 00:09.47 | levi | perl, strangely enough, goes both ways. |
| 00:11.02 | fozzmoo | Can't say the same for Perl programmers, thank goodness. |
| 00:11.52 | levi | Um. |
| 00:12.06 | levi | Well, not /all/ perl programmers, at least. |
| 00:13.24 | fozzmoo | right. Not all. |
| 00:13.47 | fozzmoo | I'm sure there are some Perl programmers that "go both ways." |
| 00:13.59 | fozzmoo | But all the Perl programmers I know... they pretty much only go "one way." |
| 00:13.59 | gillyboat | what, programmers who like perl *and* php? |
| 00:14.13 | fozzmoo | gillyboat: No. Those don't exist. |
| 00:15.12 | fozzmoo | My daughter is playing with the Magnetix I got from the Omniture giftbag last night. |
| 00:15.13 | levi | Well, I'm assuming you're referring to abnormal sexual behavior, and I can think of a rather high-profile transgendered perl programmer. |
| 00:15.24 | fozzmoo | She's having a lot of fun with it. |
| 00:15.34 | fozzmoo | I said, "What an attractive toy!" |
| 00:15.41 | fozzmoo | She just looked at me and said, "That's not funny." |
| 00:15.41 | Tene | "abnormal" |
| 00:16.14 | fozzmoo | Is anything Abnormal anymore for people who read overcomingbias.org? |
| 00:16.31 | fozzmoo | s/.org/.com/ |
| 00:17.11 | levi | fozzmoo: Identifying something as abnormal doesn't imply bias against it. |
| 00:17.15 | fozzmoo | Or is the concept of normality a form of bias? |
| 00:17.23 | fozzmoo | levi: Some would argue. |
| 00:17.34 | levi | fozzmoo: It's a statistical concept, not a value judgement. |
| 00:17.36 | Tene | *some* would argue about *anything* |
| 00:17.41 | fozzmoo | Some would say that applying the label of "normal" is a judgement. |
| 00:18.00 | Tene | I would be very surprised if that's what levi meant. |
| 00:18.03 | fozzmoo | But those people are jerks. |
| 00:18.09 | fozzmoo | hee hee. |
| 00:18.51 | levi | Well, clearly there are different ways in which words can be applied as labels, and if you insist on picking the worst possible one without considering context, I certainly won't take the blame for any offense taken. |
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| 00:21.04 | levi | If I needed to continue with my train of discussion with such a person, I might retroactively replace 'abnormal' with 'nonstandard' or even 'statistically rare', if they were really bent on taking offense. |
| 00:21.54 | levi | But anyway. Yeah. Perl is clearly no shield against that. |
| 00:22.52 | fozzmoo | I was just stating that every Perl programmer I know is pretty heterosexual. :) |
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| 00:23.45 | levi | Given the whole TIMTOWTDI philosophy, one could make an argument for a more lenient attitude towards 'swinging both ways' among Perl programmers. :P |
| 00:24.03 | fungus | http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4500/ |
| 00:24.29 | fozzmoo | levi: You're right. |
| 00:24.32 | levi | fozzmoo: Your aquaintances, however, don't form a statistically significant sample. |
| 00:25.35 | fozzmoo | My experience is my observation. :) |
| 00:25.51 | fozzmoo | That's all I was saying. |
| 00:26.06 | fozzmoo | I agree with levi about the TMTOWTDI. |
| 00:26.25 | levi | fozzmoo: Well, you made a generalization based on it, and it was statistically unsupportable. |
| 00:26.46 | fozzmoo | Statistics are dumb. |
| 00:26.58 | Supaplex | fozzmoo: 47% of them, yes |
| 00:27.09 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 00:27.29 | levi | fozzmoo: Statistics, as quantitative values, carry no intrinsic intelligence. |
| 00:27.48 | fozzmoo | levi: And you would know! |
| 00:28.23 | levi | Well, everyone should know that numbers aren't smart, they're just numbers. |
| 00:28.39 | Tene | What if you dress them up in a nice attractive business suit? |
| 00:28.54 | fozzmoo | Tene: Then you've got yet-another way to swing. |
| 00:29.00 | Tene | Heh. |
| 00:29.08 | Tene | ~smart |
| 00:29.09 | ibot | rumour has it, smart is the opposite of stupid, or the opposite of straightforward and polite, or what I definitely am, or "Self-Monitoring, Analysis, and Reporting Technology" used by some hard drive manufacturers to detect imminent drive failure |
| 00:30.32 | levi | Hey, halfway through the Overcoming Bias article, I finally see where he's going with this. :) |
| 00:31.22 | levi | "This important distinction often gets flushed down the toilet in angry arguments. People with factual disagreements and shared values, each decide that their debating opponents must be sociopaths." |
| 00:32.03 | fozzmoo | This guy is nuts. |
| 00:32.10 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 00:32.11 | Tene | A pianos guy? |
| 00:32.23 | levi | The Overcoming Bias guy? |
| 00:32.29 | Tene | I'd feel weird if I was a piano. |
| 00:32.39 | levi | Tene: I don't think you would. |
| 00:33.05 | Tene | I would if I was a piano that felt weird. |
| 00:33.28 | levi | That assumes the existence of pianos that feel anything at all. |
| 00:34.02 | Tene | You've obviously never been a piano. |
| 00:34.19 | levi | But neither have you. |
| 00:34.56 | Tene | I've been near pianos. |
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| 00:35.20 | levi | Did your piano proximity somehow lead you to beleive that the piano was feeling something? |
| 00:35.39 | Supaplex | haha |
| 00:35.53 | fozzmoo | I walked with a piano once. |
| 00:36.01 | fozzmoo | A couple guys had to help me, tho. |
| 00:36.06 | Tene | People playing pianos could feel them. |
| 00:36.13 | Supaplex | I hear panios playing |
| 00:36.20 | fozzmoo | I've tickled a piano a few times. |
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| 00:41.06 | levi | Hmm, Martin Fowler is writing a book on Domain Specific Languages. |
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| 01:52.42 | goozbach | fozzmoo: pong |
| 01:52.58 | goozbach | although I'm packing right now so I might not respond |
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| 02:04.43 | elg | ~unpack goozbach |
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| 04:21.19 | fozzmoo | Stupid motherboards. |
| 04:27.09 | vontrapp | render blah will render from the application wide view if it doesn't find it in the controller views |
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| 04:40.31 | Tene | vontrapp: You can get that in catalyst. :) |
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| 05:10.22 | levi | Good evening. |
| 05:21.07 | findlay | Good evening, Dr. Levi. |
| 05:22.36 | levi | Hello, I'm Dr. Worm. Good morning, how are you? I'm Dr. Worm. I'm interested in things. I'm not a real doctor, but I am a real worm. |
| 05:30.32 | fozzmoo | Anyone have a need for some fast DDR2-800 RAM? |
| 05:30.52 | fozzmoo | I've got 2 1GB high-performance DDR2-800 that won't work in a new motherboard. |
| 05:31.01 | fozzmoo | Probably will work in an Intel board. |
| 05:31.27 | levi | Hmm, I don't think so, sorry. |
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| 05:52.57 | jnbek | fozzmoo: i've got an AMD Athlon board that I could use RAM for, though i have no idea ofit's specs, it showed up in the mail one day, and i've never looked into it much |
| 05:54.59 | fozzmoo | jnbek: Let me find the newegg product page and you can decide if it may work. |
| 05:55.21 | jnbek | ok |
| 05:55.43 | fozzmoo | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146730&Tpk=996532 |
| 05:55.48 | fozzmoo | I guess I was wrong. It 2x512M |
| 05:55.51 | fozzmoo | Not 2x1G |
| 05:56.37 | jnbek | k, i'll look at it, if it does work, what would you want for them? |
| 05:57.05 | fozzmoo | Probably what we paid for them on newegg. |
| 05:57.07 | fozzmoo | They're brand new |
| 05:57.14 | fozzmoo | $40. |
| 05:57.39 | fozzmoo | I'm going to try bumping up the voltage in the BIOS to 2.1-2.2 and see if the board takes them. |
| 05:57.43 | fozzmoo | Maybe that's the problem. |
| 05:57.45 | fozzmoo | The board is currently at 1.9 |
| 05:57.55 | nick125 | Unless it's the athlon AM2s, it probably won't support DDR2. |
| 05:58.15 | fozzmoo | Right. Gotta be an AM2 or 1201 |
| 05:58.20 | fozzmoo | (Socket F) |
| 05:58.25 | jnbek | it doesn't :( |
| 05:58.33 | nick125 | I didn't know the Socket Fs were DDR2...interesting |
| 05:58.44 | fozzmoo | If it's a 939 or 754, it's DDR (DDR-1) |
| 05:58.52 | fozzmoo | Same with 940 - but usually ECC |
| 05:58.55 | findlay | man, I don't understand music people listen to |
| 05:59.08 | findlay | so much cacophony |
| 05:59.09 | fozzmoo | findlay: You like music people don't listen to? |
| 05:59.26 | jnbek | findlay: what kind of stuff you referring to? |
| 05:59.36 | findlay | so much chanting, so little tonality or tuneness |
| 05:59.44 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. Rap. :) |
| 05:59.46 | jnbek | oh rap music... |
| 05:59.47 | jnbek | lol |
| 05:59.48 | findlay | so much repetitiveness |
| 05:59.56 | findlay | I don't think this is rap |
| 06:00.05 | fozzmoo | I like repetitiveness when it's ambient techno and I'm trying to code. |
| 06:00.12 | findlay | drums, out of tune guitars and singing |
| 06:00.25 | findlay | rinse, lather, repeat |
| 06:00.31 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. The stuff kids are listening to in order to piss off their parents. :) |
| 06:00.32 | nick125 | repetitive music drives me up a tree |
| 06:00.41 | findlay | nick125: me too |
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| 06:01.03 | fozzmoo | I went into a shoe store with my wife the other day.... |
| 06:01.07 | fozzmoo | DSW Shoes, I think it was. |
| 06:01.08 | nick125 | Typically, when I start listening to it, I want to bang my head against the desk with the beat of the music |
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| 06:01.16 | fozzmoo | they had some music playing over the speakers... |
| 06:01.19 | fozzmoo | and it was just drums. |
| 06:01.19 | findlay | soup |
| 06:01.27 | fozzmoo | And it was over and over and over. |
| 06:01.31 | fozzmoo | Just drums. |
| 06:01.40 | fozzmoo | I'd go nuts workin there. |
| 06:01.44 | findlay | fozzmoo: well, just drums can be done very well |
| 06:01.48 | Lakshmi | hey |
| 06:01.50 | fozzmoo | This was annoying. |
| 06:02.22 | fozzmoo | This wasn't like Neil Peart or anything like that. It was all electronic and repeatitive. |
| 06:03.11 | Lakshmi | fozzmoo !!!! |
| 06:03.34 | findlay | Lakshmi :::: |
| 06:03.39 | levi | Electronic, repetative beats can be done very well, too. |
| 06:03.41 | fozzmoo | Hillary!!!! |
| 06:03.47 | fozzmoo | levi: I know! |
| 06:03.53 | fozzmoo | But this was not done well at all. |
| 06:03.54 | findlay | Adrienne ;;;; |
| 06:03.59 | fozzmoo | It was annoying. |
| 06:04.10 | fozzmoo | So, I got an announcement from XMission today. |
| 06:04.17 | findlay | about drums? |
| 06:04.24 | fozzmoo | They are now, officially, on 100% green power. |
| 06:04.53 | findlay | blue power out of style? |
| 06:05.35 | fozzmoo | Apparently, this means something like... that they pay Rocky Mountain Power a bunch of extra money to go toward solar, wind, etc. power of the same amount they use of coal-derived power. |
| 06:05.43 | fozzmoo | I don't really get it. |
| 06:05.52 | Lakshmi | fozzmoo whatcha doing/;. |
| 06:05.52 | fozzmoo | But I'm an evil conservative hatemonger. |
| 06:06.07 | fozzmoo | Lakshmi: I AM CHATTING IN IRC! Can you believe it?! |
| 06:06.21 | findlay | wow |
| 06:06.27 | findlay | I can believe it |
| 06:06.31 | Lakshmi | yeah of course forget it |
| 06:06.33 | Lakshmi | ;ater |
| 06:06.37 | Lakshmi | later |
| 06:07.06 | findlay | fozzmoo: you need to get in touch with your clorophyll |
| 06:07.32 | fozzmoo | findlay: Perhaps. |
| 06:08.12 | findlay | it's amazing how broad a range of music 'drums, out of tune [guitars|<insert other instrument here>] and singing' will accuse |
| 06:10.14 | fozzmoo | I also have a warranty replacement Seagate 80GB SATA drive if anyone wants to make me an offer. |
| 06:10.18 | fozzmoo | I have no use for it. |
| 06:10.24 | fozzmoo | I replaced the original drive with a 250G |
| 06:11.19 | findlay | I'll give you 256 rocks |
| 06:12.14 | fozzmoo | What are your rocks made of, findlay? |
| 06:12.35 | findlay | some kind of silicate |
| 06:13.58 | levi | Grr, I'm about out of blank CDs and this stupid program didn't write correctly. It seems to have just written out the file structure without the actual files. |
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| 06:17.43 | levi | I'm getting a new computer set up for my father in law. |
| 06:18.16 | levi | He bought a new computer himself a little while ago from a local guy, but it never worked right and he took it back to get it fixed, and the dude went out of business. |
| 06:18.35 | fozzmoo | That sucks |
| 06:18.52 | fozzmoo | My cousin e-mailed me today - said he won $1000 from Circuit City in some online contest. |
| 06:19.00 | fozzmoo | (He does that a lot. Doesn't get out much.) |
| 06:19.12 | fozzmoo | Said he wanted to buy a new computer and did I like Dell, HP, or Gateway best. |
| 06:19.26 | findlay | haha |
| 06:25.11 | levi | mwave.com had a sale on a Shuttle mini-tower thing. It was a pretty sweet deal. |
| 06:28.33 | fozzmoo | levi: How is it noise-wise? |
| 06:28.47 | fozzmoo | That's the only thing I've not liked about the mini-ITX cases I've had. |
| 06:28.52 | fozzmoo | They've been a little noisy. |
| 06:38.55 | fozzmoo | Can you do an autopsy on a car? |
| 06:39.24 | fozzmoo | I mean, does that make sense? |
| 06:46.18 | findlay | fozzmoo: get him a gOS PC |
| 06:46.24 | findlay | heck, get 3! |
| 06:46.30 | findlay | :) |
| 06:51.29 | levi | fozzmoo: It's a little noisy. Won't be a big deal to my father in law, though. |
| 06:51.52 | levi | I've yet to successfully boot it, though. |
| 06:55.16 | levi | Wouldn't boot off the mini-dvd. |
| 06:55.29 | levi | Going to see if this ThinkPad will boot from it... |
| 06:55.59 | levi | And the answer is yes. |
| 06:58.05 | levi | Not all the way to loading ubuntu, though. Hmm. |
| 06:58.16 | levi | I'll just go back to windows and burn a regular CD. |
| 07:15.08 | findlay | ~cd levi |
| 07:15.13 | findlay | -chat CD |
| 07:15.13 | brac | CD is very different places |
| 07:15.34 | findlay | ~rndom |
| 07:15.36 | findlay | ~random |
| 07:15.45 | findlay | ~cookie |
| 07:20.33 | levi | Ahh, I finally found a CDRW. |
| 07:20.35 | findlay | ~weather kpvu |
| 07:20.57 | findlay | levi: I've got, like 50 and you can have all of them |
| 07:21.40 | levi | Well, I kind of needed one /now/ |
| 07:22.02 | levi | I have a zillion DVD-RWs, but apparently this drive doesn't handle them. |
| 07:23.31 | levi | The drive in the laptop must only do DVD-R, since it wrote the mini DVD-R but balks at the DVD+R and DVD+RW discs. |
| 07:26.18 | findlay | no DVDxR? |
| 07:26.28 | findlay | :) |
| 07:35.38 | levi | 5 minutes until this stupid disc is finished... |
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| 08:02.22 | Sargun | j #gentoo |
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| 13:46.20 | brac | updating portage cache: |
| 14:20.44 | Sargun | Do you think NannyCorps.com is a good domain name for a group of militaristic nannies? |
| 14:21.10 | Sargun | or too many people will pronounce it nanny corpse |
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| 15:45.24 | brac | Why the govt. messed up. |
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| 16:03.14 | atoponce | mrpull-_: i'm curious, but why the 3 nicks? mrpull, mrpull-_ and mrpull-x ? |
| 16:11.59 | maquis | -chat |
| 16:12.00 | brac | still no Fed.. :( |
| 16:12.33 | tensai | atoponce: one for the master, one for the dame. one for the little boy who lives down the lane. |
| 16:12.37 | maquis | brac, the govt messed up, but you're sad about the fed disappearing? |
| 16:12.38 | brac | I can't do that Dave. |
| 16:13.22 | maquis | tensai: bah bah black sheep, have you any wool? |
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| 16:21.30 | elg | ~speel clausterphobic |
| 16:21.39 | elg | ~spell clausterphobic |
| 16:21.53 | dmdavis | ~spell speel |
| 16:21.59 | dmdavis | :) |
| 16:27.00 | herlo | elg: yes? |
| 16:28.55 | levi | Good morning. |
| 16:29.02 | herlo | ~taunt elg |
| 16:29.02 | ibot | ACTION folds a paper football and flicks it at elg |
| 16:29.02 | dmdavis | morning |
| 16:29.40 | levi | I got my DVR cpu upgraded yesterday, and got my father-in-law's Christmas present computer built up, too. |
| 16:30.05 | dmdavis | nice |
| 16:31.02 | levi | The DVR couldn't handle playing an HD stream while recording an HD stream at the same time. This was a problem for watching live TV. Now, with a dual-core CPU, it chugs along nicely. |
| 16:31.21 | findlay | nice |
| 16:32.50 | dmdavis | I really need to make a DVR for myself, but it would just make it too easy to watch too much TV |
| 16:33.04 | dmdavis | I don't have the will power for a DVR |
| 16:33.33 | findlay | and I don't have the money for another box |
| 16:36.49 | findlay | probably a very weak one |
| 16:37.22 | findlay | levi: does your DVR use the video card to handle the codecs? |
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| 16:44.54 | Tene | So, remind me, how bad of a sign is it for someone to tell a few of her friends "I need you to not talk to me on IM anymore. My boyfriend gets upset when he sees it." |
| 16:45.01 | Tene | ? |
| 16:47.49 | synic | Hah, doesn't sound like an extremely healthy relationship |
| 16:48.04 | Tene | That's what I thought, too. |
| 16:48.54 | unum | depends |
| 16:49.06 | unum | well I agree it's not healthy |
| 16:49.38 | unum | but if I was serious with a girl I would expect her to change her relationships with other guys |
| 16:50.00 | unum | though if I needed to tell her that than the relationship probably isn't healthy |
| 16:50.05 | elg | dmdavis: true and false |
| 16:50.57 | elg | dmdavis: on the one hand, you have everything you want to watch at your fingertips. on the other hand, you don't have to watch it NOW, and you don't have to watch anything you don't want to watch (well obviously you don't before either, but sometimes you just need to veg out and if nothing's on...) |
| 16:51.21 | RyanE | is there a way to have tail know if a logfile has been rolled over to another one, and pick up the new one? |
| 16:51.31 | Tene | unum: the people that she said that to were one of her good female friends and a male acquaintance. |
| 16:51.34 | levi | findlay: It can supposedly do MPEG in the video chip, but I haven't been able to get that to work well. |
| 16:51.40 | Tene | RyanE: you could check the ctime? |
| 16:52.01 | Tene | oh, "Tail" |
| 16:52.23 | elg | RyanE: tail -F |
| 16:52.29 | RyanE | oooooh... |
| 16:52.54 | atoponce | tensai: that's sad. just sad. :) |
| 16:53.06 | levi | dmdavis: I don't watch any more TV than I did before. The viewing experience is just of vastly higher quality now. |
| 16:54.21 | RyanE | elg: thanks. |
| 16:54.58 | unum | Tene: then I agree that is really unhealthy |
| 17:00.05 | dmdavis | elg: I just figure that if I have all the shows that I actually enjoy watching right there and accessible, I'm more likely to choose to watch. Now, I figure nothing good is on, so I'll program or read or something |
| 17:00.40 | dmdavis | levi: not saying that it would make others watch more. I just really think it would for me, and I prefer watching less |
| 17:01.14 | dmdavis | I guess I'm just saying that I lack the strength of will for such a cool device |
| 17:02.19 | Tene | That's the same reason I don't use RSS, too. |
| 17:06.59 | elg | dmdavis: i hear your logic. i think you'd be surprised how it really works out, but don't take my word for it :-) |
| 17:07.59 | Tene | elg: I've seen how it actually does work out for me when I've had DVDs available of shows I enjoy. |
| 17:08.33 | Tene | I have a very difficult time limiting myself. |
| 17:09.30 | dmdavis | elg: but yeah, I would be interested in trying it to see how it worked out. maybe someday. |
| 17:11.01 | Tene | elg: is there a significant difference between DVR and having DVDs available? |
| 17:11.21 | elg | Tene: sure, the incoming rate is quite a bit lower |
| 17:11.36 | Tene | Hm. |
| 17:11.43 | elg | unless nick at nite is showing a marathon of your favorite old show :) |
| 17:13.19 | Tene | Also, there would have to be enough shows I'm interested in watching to justify investing in it. |
| 17:13.23 | Tene | Which there aren't. |
| 17:13.28 | Tene | I'm not big into TV usually. |
| 17:14.23 | elg | well, usually the cable or dish service cost dwarfs the dvr rental |
| 17:14.23 | elg | or the mythtv hardware setup, over tiem |
| 17:14.23 | Tene | Also, I'd have to have cable or dish. |
| 17:14.27 | fozzmoo | Or a neighbor with cable. ;-) |
| 17:14.31 | elg | nor do I now. so I don't have a dvr now, though I have a pseudo-dvr |
| 17:14.36 | elg | I download stuff I want to watch |
| 17:14.42 | fozzmoo | It's the way to do it. |
| 17:15.10 | findlay-w | a dish of cable? |
| 17:15.22 | elg | findlay-w: for you for thanksgiving |
| 17:15.28 | elg | be sure and clear your plate |
| 17:15.38 | elg | mostly cat5, with some 220 volt power cables |
| 17:15.45 | Tene | So, what size gpg key should I make? |
| 17:15.57 | fozzmoo | 2048 |
| 17:16.09 | elg | 16384 |
| 17:16.49 | Tene | elg: any particular reason? |
| 17:17.01 | elg | to see if you'll fall for it |
| 17:17.06 | Tene | Thought so. |
| 17:17.15 | elg | and how long it takes to generate :) |
| 17:17.35 | fozzmoo | 65536 :) |
| 17:17.39 | findlay-w | 65536 |
| 17:17.44 | findlay-w | aw, you beat me |
| 17:17.50 | fozzmoo | ~beat findlay-w |
| 17:17.50 | ibot | ACTION beats findlay-w with a dripping-wet & less-than-fresh fish |
| 17:17.57 | findlay-w | heh |
| 17:18.07 | findlay-w | it amuses me how pop culture follows geek culture now |
| 17:18.20 | Kemotaha | I hava 64bit machine. I can go quite a bit higher than that |
| 17:18.25 | fozzmoo | ~amuse findlay-w |
| 17:18.40 | findlay-w | like I overheard some people explaining what a fish slap was |
| 17:19.02 | findlay-w | that's like, duh, boring but to them it was bleeding-edge culture |
| 17:19.16 | Tene | gpg doesn't even give me an option for 16384 |
| 17:19.23 | Tene | The highest it will go is 4096 |
| 17:19.27 | findlay-w | Tene: your gpg is inferior |
| 17:19.44 | dmdavis | then the government will be reading your email like it's plain text |
| 17:19.47 | dmdavis | :) |
| 17:19.57 | elg | your gpa came from the NSA |
| 17:20.01 | elg | gpg even |
| 17:20.08 | Tene | Heh. |
| 17:20.11 | findlay-w | the NSA knows my gpa? |
| 17:20.27 | elg | i do |
| 17:20.42 | Kemotaha | findlay-w: the police know your gpa, the NSA knows much much more |
| 17:21.17 | findlay-w | Kemotaha: my head is firmly wrapped in tin |
| 17:21.37 | Kemotaha | but are your computers? |
| 17:21.49 | findlay-w | maybe |
| 17:21.58 | Kemotaha | and it really should be lead |
| 17:22.09 | findlay-w | tin is commonly used as a coating for steel alloys |
| 17:22.16 | Kemotaha | radio wave can penetrate tin |
| 17:22.25 | Kemotaha | they have to be strong but... |
| 17:22.54 | findlay-w | EM waves can't penetrate any conductor with holes in it smaller than the wavelength |
| 17:22.57 | bbeattie | does wire mesh or tin work better? |
| 17:23.49 | findlay-w | conductors are equipotential in any electric field |
| 17:23.55 | Tene | findlay-w: what about a conductor with no holes in it? |
| 17:24.15 | findlay-w | Tene: then those holes are definitely smaller than any wavelength |
| 17:25.41 | findlay-w | Kemotaha: you're probably right about EM waves passing through a conducting material, but I haven't learned about those conditions yet in any classes |
| 17:26.35 | Kemotaha | I am trying to remember but can't |
| 17:26.53 | Kemotaha | I just know that the NSA and the government use LEAD for their faraday cages |
| 17:28.49 | bbeattie | 1' lead, 7' concrete+rebar for the unisys government labs building. |
| 17:30.00 | bbeattie | Anyone know if you need a 4x4 to get to the desert edge paint ball field, or will a 2 wheel drive hatch make it okay? |
| 17:30.16 | elg | you'd better use a helicopter |
| 17:30.27 | findlay-w | Apache |
| 17:30.59 | tensai | is there ever a time where a primary key should default to 0? |
| 17:31.10 | tensai | seems to me that having a default on a primary key is rather silly |
| 17:32.21 | Jayce^ | bbeattie, 2 wheel will be fine |
| 17:32.27 | Jayce^ | just two spots to go slow on.. |
| 17:32.51 | Jayce^ | well, three :) but we regularly have a kia rio make it up just fine, among other small card |
| 17:32.53 | Jayce^ | cars |
| 17:33.19 | Jayce^ | a miata isnt' good for it though |
| 17:33.34 | elg | low rider? |
| 17:33.36 | Kemotaha | Jayce^: is a miata good for anything? |
| 17:33.37 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 17:33.55 | Jayce^ | Kemotaha, sure, fun... but not for that road |
| 17:34.19 | Kemotaha | I saw a red one in flames on the side of the road once. |
| 17:34.19 | Jayce^ | I have seen a very fast driving van take out it's oilpan, but they weren't using common sense :) |
| 17:36.07 | levi | Jayce^: Did someone try it in a Miata? |
| 17:36.15 | levi | Kemotaha: Miatas are awesome. |
| 17:36.39 | Jayce^ | levi, started up the road, then thought better.. |
| 17:36.48 | Jayce^ | when it rains, can be some nasty mud right at the entrance |
| 17:37.11 | levi | Kemotaha: More sports-car style fun per dollar than just about any other car. :) |
| 17:37.26 | tensai | Jayce^: did you ever find "Joseph"? |
| 17:37.57 | levi | Jayce^: I've had my Miata on some dirt roads, but they weren't terribly treacherous dirt roads. |
| 17:38.22 | findlay-w | my 1988 subaru has 4 wheel drive |
| 17:38.28 | findlay-w | both high and low! |
| 17:38.30 | findlay-w | yay |
| 17:38.33 | elg | is there a unix command to reverse the order of the lines on stdin? |
| 17:38.37 | elg | e.g. |
| 17:38.38 | elg | foo |
| 17:38.38 | elg | bar |
| 17:38.38 | Jayce^ | tensai, yeah, it's at home, unripped :) |
| 17:38.40 | elg | baz |
| 17:38.43 | levi | Are there Subarus that don't have 4wd of some sort? |
| 17:38.43 | elg | becomes |
| 17:38.44 | Jayce^ | gotta remind me at home :) |
| 17:38.45 | elg | baz |
| 17:38.45 | elg | bar |
| 17:38.46 | elg | foo |
| 17:38.52 | Tene | elg: 'tac' I think. |
| 17:38.58 | tensai | elg: sort -r? |
| 17:39.05 | Tene | yeah, 'tac' |
| 17:39.35 | elg | tac it is |
| 17:39.42 | Tene | ~tac |
| 17:39.42 | ibot | An AOL Instant Messenger client in pure TCL. URL: http://users.tmok.com/~smike/, or cat backwords |
| 17:40.05 | elg | eww |
| 17:40.14 | findlay-w | ~tcl elg |
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| 17:40.30 | findlay-w | better than a cat inside-out |
| 17:41.51 | elg | is there a common unix command called tap or tapestry? |
| 17:43.18 | Tene | Doesn't sound familiar. |
| 17:45.51 | ^Migs^ | is there a way I can tell a program to only use up to a limited amount of CPU? |
| 17:45.57 | ^Migs^ | mencoder is hogging all my resources |
| 17:46.13 | elg | just nice it |
| 17:46.20 | elg | nice mencoder ... |
| 17:46.37 | elg | it'll still use all the cpu when it can, but it will be second in line |
| 17:47.12 | Tene | use 'renice' to change the nice value of a running process. |
| 17:51.13 | elg | well, tapestry is a java framework |
| 17:52.26 | elg | ~spell quiltry |
| 17:52.31 | Tene | But nobody cares about those. |
| 17:52.44 | elg | quite true |
| 17:52.51 | elg | still, a tapestry and a quilt are quite different |
| 17:53.37 | elg | quiltry could work |
| 17:53.43 | elg | quiltree perhaps |
| 17:53.51 | elg | but tap is nice to type |
| 17:54.02 | elg | quiltry messes up tab completion |
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| 17:54.51 | bbeattie | jayce^: have you heard any estimates lately on how many will be coming out? |
| 17:56.46 | levi | elg: Yeah, you can make a quilt out of patchwork, but not so much a tapestry. |
| 17:59.21 | elg | one shouldn't be overly hindered by logic |
| 18:01.15 | Jayce^ | bbeattie, dunno |
| 18:03.05 | herlo | Jayce^: which reminds me, jtpaintball had a question as to how many.... |
| 18:03.21 | herlo | maybe we should do a quick question... |
| 18:04.27 | elg | *herlo does a quick question |
| 18:04.41 | herlo | ~lart elg |
| 18:04.41 | ibot | whacks elg with a giant beaver's tail |
| 18:12.19 | bbeattie | herlo: 42? |
| 18:16.32 | herlo | bbeattie: no that's the answer to life the universe and everything... |
| 18:25.22 | elg | how many roads must a man walk down? |
| 18:27.08 | tensai | 3 |
| 18:27.23 | elg | sweet, i'm all done |
| 18:27.35 | sinuhe | herlo: Did we ever find the question? |
| 18:27.58 | sinuhe | s/herlo/bbeattie/ |
| 18:28.09 | herlo | sinuhe: not so far... |
| 18:28.23 | levi | http://neilbartlett.name/blog/2007/09/13/statically-checked-duck-typing-in-scala/ |
| 18:30.55 | tensai | Err http://security.ubuntu.com gutsy-security/main smbfs 3.0.26a-1ubuntu2.1 |
| 18:30.56 | tensai | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:31.02 | tensai | hmm. that'd odd... |
| 18:34.13 | maquis | for some reason, i think i saw someone discussing that earlier today |
| 18:35.07 | elg | i think the reason might be because someone was discussing that earlier today. just a hunch |
| 18:36.19 | elg | levi: interesting. i have to agree with elvind in the comments though |
| 18:40.54 | tensai | elg: I think I saw someone discussing the fact that someone was discussing that earlier today, earlier today |
| 18:46.08 | bbeattie | sinuhe: the mice know possibly. |
| 18:46.28 | sinuhe | Mmm...you know what happened to the mice. |
| 18:47.05 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:47.05 | brac | tensai was |
| 18:47.10 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:47.10 | brac | elg had that problem is the advantage you get a vanity phone number gets incremented by two |
| 18:47.20 | maquis | -chat maquis |
| 18:47.20 | brac | maquis did |
| 18:47.22 | maquis | -chat maquis |
| 18:47.22 | brac | maquis had |
| 18:47.24 | maquis | -chat maquis |
| 18:47.24 | brac | maquis had |
| 18:47.25 | maquis | -chat maquis |
| 18:47.25 | brac | maquis did |
| 18:47.26 | maquis | -chat maquis |
| 18:47.26 | brac | maquis went snorkelling at stingray bay |
| 18:47.32 | maquis | actually, i did |
| 18:48.03 | tensai | maquis went snorkelling in a vat of chocolate pudding |
| 18:48.14 | maquis | tensai: that wouldn't work as well |
| 18:48.21 | elg | -maquis went |
| 18:48.28 | tensai | maquis: I expect the tuple (went, snorkelling) doesn't have many entries in the markov database |
| 18:48.29 | elg | -chat maquis went |
| 18:48.30 | brac | maquis went snorkelling at stingray bay |
| 18:48.36 | elg | -chat maquis went |
| 18:48.36 | brac | maquis went snorkelling in a big sum of all the girls weird in general |
| 18:48.46 | elg | maquis! |
| 18:48.56 | maquis | uh |
| 18:49.23 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.23 | brac | elg had that |
| 18:49.25 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.26 | brac | elg went crazy |
| 18:49.32 | maquis | true |
| 18:49.33 | maquis | true |
| 18:49.35 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.35 | brac | elg is listening inbetween trying to work |
| 18:49.39 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.39 | brac | elg had that ipv6 would ever care to get to go to WSU, chances are you at? Virginia? |
| 18:49.43 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.43 | brac | elg is here at work tomorrow |
| 18:49.49 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.49 | brac | elg did rescue the world around with my aggressive position |
| 18:49.54 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.56 | brac | elg went flying around in circles |
| 18:49.59 | maquis | -chat elg |
| 18:49.59 | brac | elg did rescue the world should pay the slave? |
| 18:50.10 | elg | -chat maquis went |
| 18:50.10 | brac | maquis went to the penitentiary |
| 18:50.26 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.26 | brac | tensai was |
| 18:50.27 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.27 | brac | tensai was |
| 18:50.28 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.28 | brac | tensai went |
| 18:50.29 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.29 | brac | tensai did his homework...in class :P |
| 18:50.31 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.32 | brac | tensai went |
| 18:50.34 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.34 | brac | tensai had never played so I can track him using the protocol, rather than hacking the source for the visual powerpoint/impress-like presentations during our free time) for the Asterisk CLI? |
| 18:50.41 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.42 | brac | tensai did his Chris Gaines album because he couldn't tell if you're being funny, not the me on my gentoo box |
| 18:50.50 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.51 | brac | tensai went |
| 18:50.52 | maquis | -chat tensai |
| 18:50.53 | brac | tensai is playing with Identd. For some lousy beans? |
| 18:50.53 | tensai | ~silence maquis |
| 18:50.54 | ibot | ACTION shoves an apple in maquis's mouth, shoves a spit through ... well, uhm, anyway ... then builds a nice fire and starts roasting |
| 18:51.04 | maquis | hey! |
| 19:09.32 | elg | that'll interfere with your people snorkeling |
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| 20:05.18 | levi | elg: There's two benefits to static typing, though. One is that you get your automated proof of type-correctness, which may or may not be a big deal to you, and the other is that you get the option of making many more compile-time optimizations. |
| 20:07.55 | levi | elg: I also agree with the guy that it's easy to not make type errors as long as you only deal with trivial types, but I'm hoping that more expressive type systems that are easy to use become prevalent in the future. |
| 20:10.04 | elg | "e wary of thinking of a cryptographic hash function as a magic box that you can stuff an input into and always get a totally unique fixed-size output in return, even if you read a mathematical-sounding definition describing it that way. MD5 no longer has this property, and most experts expect that SHA-1 will lose it within a few years." |
| 20:10.51 | elg | while technically true, that tone bugs me in this article. the article is about content-based addressing. MD5 doesn't start having collisions in practice just cuz someone broke it. nor did it never have collisions before someone broke it |
| 20:10.51 | levi | elg: And on a related note, I saw an interesting blog post on a Haskell-based solution for statically guaranteeing that you couldn't use an 'unsafe string' where a 'safe string' was required. So, the tools are here now, even if their usage is not yet mainstreamed. |
| 20:11.23 | elg | static typing has its place |
| 20:11.52 | elg | i just don't think people who like static types == people who grok types |
| 20:12.09 | elg | or, if not grok, then think in types, or whatever |
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| 20:12.33 | *** part/#utah brasto (n=brasto@out.lnxi.com) |
| 20:12.40 | elg | au contraire, those who like duck typing do so not because they can't be bothered with types, but because they feel they have a fine grasp on the types in their program and don't need the compiler nagging them about it |
| 20:12.57 | elg | is that folly? perhaps in some cases |
| 20:13.07 | levi | elg: If you had a fine grasp on them, the compiler wouldn't be nagging you about it in any case. |
| 20:13.30 | elg | nonsense. if you have a fine grasp and you jump through the compiler's hoops, it won't nag you |
| 20:13.35 | levi | In that situation, it's mostly a usability issue. |
| 20:13.41 | elg | that's like saying your wife won't nag you if you clean the house and mop the floor every day |
| 20:14.37 | levi | What kind of hoops are you referring to, exactly? |
| 20:15.03 | elg | declaring types. casting. |
| 20:15.35 | elg | hard effort to shoehorn your needs into an inheritance hierarchy |
| 20:16.01 | levi | You're talking about Java-like languages, not the general concept of a statically-typed language. |
| 20:16.20 | elg | partly |
| 20:16.31 | elg | it can't be statically typed without declarations |
| 20:16.39 | elg | and you can't have declarations without defining what the type is |
| 20:17.17 | levi | You declare types all the time, in a sense, when you name your classes in OO languages. |
| 20:18.23 | tensai | ~rlart |
| 20:18.23 | ibot | moos at thaddeusq |
| 20:19.01 | elg | i suppose. if you define "type" as "something that won't die when I use it here", that's approaching something I would find useful |
| 20:19.35 | levi | Anyway, I'm not a big fan of extraneous type declarations either, but they haven't been necessary in decent statically-typed languages for a long time. The fact that people persist in using Java-like languages is not particularly relevant to the notion of static typing. |
| 20:19.37 | elg | the achilles heel of duck typing is error checking. |
| 20:20.01 | thaddeusq | mooo to you too, ibot |
| 20:20.07 | elg | so if you can duck type and the compiler can check that you're safe doing so, that'd be awesome |
| 20:20.56 | levi | elg: That's essentially what this structural typing thing is doing. |
| 20:21.59 | levi | Although you do have to be a bit more explicit than you are in, say, Ruby. |
| 20:23.17 | levi | You have to say what type the function you're calling is, since it can't necessarily infer it, but you don't have to declare interfaces and add them to your classes. |
| 20:23.24 | elg | what I wish is that someone would read my mind and make my perfect language |
| 20:23.55 | elg | as in function return types? that's an acceptable level for me |
| 20:24.16 | elg | a function should return something definite. now, you should still be able to use that something in a duck way of course |
| 20:24.19 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=Lakshmi@66-240-25-49.isp.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 20:24.22 | Lakshmi | nm |
| 20:24.34 | Lakshmi | ~onjoin lakshmi you are the coolest person here |
| 20:24.34 | ibot | ok, Lakshmi |
| 20:24.35 | elg | actually nm is south, and south is usually referred to as down |
| 20:25.42 | levi | elg: The example given in the release notes creates a function 'test' that takes an object that has the method 'get name(): String' defined on it and then calls that method. |
| 20:27.23 | levi | elg: You can thereafter call 'test' with an argument of any object that has the 'getName(): String' (I mistyped it earlier, sorry) method defined on it. |
| 20:30.53 | levi | Haskell has the notion of 'type classes', where you can define the operations that must be supported by a type to be considered a member of the class, and you can then call those operations on values of any type that falls within the class. |
| 20:33.16 | thaddeusq | elg: I don't believe nm in that context refers to New Mexico. |
| 20:33.43 | levi | thaddeusq: I don't believe elg really believed that it did. |
| 20:36.43 | levi | I want to pick up this book: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/tapl/main.html |
| 20:36.46 | brac | [Types and Programming Languages] |
| 20:42.30 | levi | I believe that's the same book that launched pugs. |
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| 21:31.32 | RyanE | yeah, good luck with that. |
| 21:31.44 | RyanE | people who know Perl well enough to help him are gainfully employed doing Perl |
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| 21:34.16 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:39.41 | elg | ~metar klru |
| 21:40.51 | tensai | ~metar kida |
| 21:41.05 | fozzmoo | ~metar.gz |
| 21:41.19 | tensai | ~me 'tard |
| 21:41.20 | ibot | moi? |
| 21:42.51 | elg | ~metar kpvu |
| 21:43.05 | elg | ha, it's nicer there than it is here |
| 21:43.15 | elg | enjoy it while you can :) |
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| 22:18.51 | brac | Because /mnt/new is included in the way GoboLinux does it. |
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| 22:27.56 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@64.238.16.102) |
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| 22:44.13 | fozzmoo | Thank you ibot. |
| 23:53.20 | Lakshmi | ibot said that to me! |
| 23:53.27 | Lakshmi | and i love tetris |
| 23:54.48 | *** part/#utah gillyboat (n=adam@66.7.122.158) |