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| 02:40.01 | elg | tensai: canola oil gave it a funny taste |
| 02:41.02 | elg | might be because i got too much oil on the extraction |
| 02:41.19 | elg | i had a nonstick cake pan, and I can't help but think more oil stuck to the pizza than stayed in the pan |
| 02:43.18 | elg | i'm thinking next time cast iron frying pan coated with oil, rather than fighting with nonstick |
| 02:44.33 | elg | otoh i'm slightly concerned about the thermal mass of the cast iron taking too long to cook before the toppings are charred |
| 02:50.58 | vontrapp | elg: i'll have to ask cassandra how they do it at pizza factory |
| 02:51.02 | vontrapp | they use cast iron there |
| 02:51.53 | elg | yeah, do ask her if they preheat it or if it just works out |
| 02:52.06 | elg | and how much oil they use and the temp of the oven, if she's really brave |
| 02:54.29 | levi | elg: Tried the deep-dish, eh? |
| 02:54.35 | levi | Should have used olive oil. :) |
| 02:54.43 | levi | It'd be like focaccia. |
| 02:55.05 | elg | yeah, I almost did |
| 02:55.11 | elg | but tensai said neutral oil |
| 02:57.02 | vontrapp | castor oil |
| 02:58.00 | elg | i'm considering that too |
| 03:00.25 | levi | Mmm, butter. |
| 03:00.37 | levi | Well, tensai told you what Pizza Hut does. You could do better. :) |
| 03:00.52 | elg | absolutely. no need to stop with pizza hut :) |
| 03:03.06 | tensai | I also said what I did, which was used canola. I didn't use non-stick though. there's so much grease, what's to stick? |
| 03:03.40 | tensai | you could try peanut which is supposed to be the cleanest of the oils |
| 03:04.16 | elg | tensai: well, the problem is the grease doesn't stick to the pan |
| 03:04.18 | tensai | pizza hut does not preheat the pans. the dough proofs in the pan, floating in oil. then sits in the chiller until ordered. |
| 03:04.26 | tensai | elg: that's because you used non-stick :) |
| 03:04.39 | elg | yeah but the pizza hut pans are like 1/4 as thick as my cast iron frying pan :) |
| 03:04.43 | tensai | my cake pans are very much "stick" |
| 03:04.56 | elg | hey you're lucky I had a cake pan. ;-) |
| 03:05.27 | tensai | I would suggest pyrex but I know you blew it up with ice |
| 03:05.58 | elg | -lart tensai |
| 03:06.04 | elg | it was quite fun, you should try it |
| 03:06.29 | levi | I've got a ton of it still in the garage from wedding gifts. |
| 03:07.43 | vontrapp | ~hug vim :make |
| 03:07.44 | ibot | ACTION sneaks up on vim :make and suddenly hugs vim :make tightly |
| 03:07.57 | elg | ~hug :copen |
| 03:07.57 | ibot | ACTION hugs :copen |
| 03:08.05 | levi | ~hug emacs |
| 03:08.06 | ibot | ACTION hugs emacs tightly until emacs turns slightly blue |
| 03:08.10 | vontrapp | ~barf |
| 03:08.11 | ibot | BLECCH |
| 03:08.20 | levi | ~mop vontrapp |
| 03:08.20 | ibot | ACTION get's a mop and cleans up after vontrapp |
| 03:08.28 | levi | Hah. |
| 03:15.16 | levi | What happens when smallville finishes? |
| 03:15.32 | vontrapp | i don't get to watch it until my homework is done :( |
| 03:24.46 | levi | Ahh. |
| 03:24.54 | levi | What kind of homework? |
| 03:26.13 | vontrapp | 312 |
| 03:26.37 | levi | Ahh, C#, fun. :) |
| 03:26.49 | vontrapp | should we have another #utah poll? |
| 03:27.02 | vontrapp | i'd rather do c++ anyday |
| 03:28.27 | levi | I'd probably rather do C#. |
| 03:35.04 | Det3 | mm. Binary. |
| 03:35.06 | sontek | C# . * |
| 03:35.13 | sontek | C# > * |
| 03:35.18 | Det3 | hm. |
| 03:35.22 | sontek | :D |
| 03:35.25 | Det3 | opcodes > * |
| 03:35.30 | sontek | haha |
| 03:36.10 | Det3 | You're not a real programmer until you understand what an addressing mode is, and how to use them directly. ;-) |
| 03:36.47 | vontrapp | -lart Det3 |
| 03:36.57 | vontrapp | mahahaa |
| 03:37.03 | Det3 | I already have windows. |
| 03:37.07 | Det3 | I am engineer, therefore I have windows. |
| 03:37.09 | Det3 | Reluctantly. |
| 03:37.15 | Det3 | However... |
| 03:39.08 | Det3 | Slams through 4M gate FPGAs in about 45 minutes. |
| 03:42.07 | levi | Both Altera and Xilinx have Linux-based FPGA tools, which you're apparently using some of. I wonder if other EE tools will come along, too. |
| 03:42.33 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 03:42.42 | Det3 | Doubtful. |
| 03:43.11 | Det3 | I talk to the guys at Mentor and Cadence every time I go to DAC. |
| 03:43.22 | Det3 | They spent so much time and effort getting to Windows they don't want to move away. |
| 03:43.36 | levi | Were they Unix before? |
| 03:43.41 | Det3 | Yep. |
| 03:43.51 | Det3 | Some of their platforms are still UNIX. |
| 03:43.56 | Det3 | But they're uh, pricey. |
| 03:43.58 | Det3 | Even for EDA tools. |
| 03:44.03 | levi | Hmm. |
| 03:44.08 | Det3 | I can get a whole PADS toolchain for about $10K. |
| 03:44.28 | Det3 | That includes schematic capture, layout, autorouter, and SI tools. |
| 03:44.51 | Det3 | If I go up to the new version of BoardStation (can't remember the name), I can run it on UNIX. |
| 03:45.00 | Det3 | But then the cost for the same tools jumps to about $50K. |
| 03:45.06 | Det3 | Well, comparable tools. |
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| 03:46.23 | levi | Det3: That's unfortunate. |
| 03:46.29 | vontrapp | grrr |
| 03:46.29 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
| 03:46.45 | Det3 | levi: Yeah, and it sucks that the open source versions of the tools suck a big wet one. |
| 03:47.19 | Det3 | I wish all the guys working on their own EDA tools would STFU, get together and do one toolchain. |
| 03:48.30 | Det3 | And it would be TOTALLY AWESOME if the guys doing VHDL simulators would actually bring one out of beta... grr. |
| 03:48.45 | Det3 | Okay, I'm done. |
| 03:50.22 | levi | Heh. |
| 03:51.15 | Det3 | If I were more of a software guy, I'd do it. |
| 03:51.26 | levi | My experience with electronic design is limited to a drag&drop GUI, with which I built a basic computer from logic gates for a class. |
| 03:51.28 | Det3 | I've got some ideas that would kick ass, but I am not that dedicated to the tools. |
| 03:51.44 | Det3 | Heheh. I did that back in high-school, only I used 74xx series logic. :-) |
| 03:52.41 | levi | Half the class was building the CPU, the other was writing asm programs for it and running them against a simulator. |
| 03:53.04 | levi | At the very end, you'd simulate the circuit and have it load and run the programs you wrote throughout the class. |
| 03:53.05 | vontrapp | levi: you were in the cpu half? |
| 03:53.19 | Det3 | Sweet. Was it actually fabbed, or ran completely in the simulator? |
| 03:53.25 | levi | vontrapp: No, I mean half the effort of the class, not half the people in the class. |
| 03:53.31 | levi | Just run in the simulator. |
| 03:53.43 | vontrapp | :p |
| 03:53.55 | levi | We were in CS, real hardware would be too much for us. ;) |
| 03:54.02 | levi | Simulated hardware was bad enough! |
| 03:54.10 | Det3 | Hahah. |
| 03:54.17 | tensai | I took CS143 twice. once it was just ASM and the second time was as levi describes. the latter course was much more useful and interesting. |
| 03:54.21 | Det3 | Sweet though. |
| 03:54.27 | levi | tensai: I took it three times. |
| 03:54.41 | tensai | levi: it's not a race you know |
| 03:54.42 | Det3 | U of U, or BYU? |
| 03:54.47 | vontrapp | i took 124 |
| 03:54.52 | tensai | BYU |
| 03:54.58 | levi | tensai: First it was 68k asm on Macs, next it was MIPS asm via spim, and then it was the cool one. |
| 03:55.10 | tensai | my first was on spim |
| 03:55.23 | tensai | blasted thing kept crashing the macs |
| 03:56.28 | Det3 | Heh. |
| 03:56.29 | levi | The 68k one was fun. The first assignment was to hit the debugger button and enter some code in via hex input to call the Toolbox routine to print a big A to the screen. |
| 04:20.43 | vontrapp | levi: as in... |
| 04:20.58 | vontrapp | ? |
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| 04:22.22 | levi | Could you rephrase your question? I'm not sure what you're asking me about. |
| 04:22.53 | Det3 | I think it was about the electron spin and its relation to the price of rice in china. |
| 04:23.11 | vontrapp | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:23.12 | vontrapp | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:23.12 | vontrapp | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:23.12 | vontrapp | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:23.12 | vontrapp | /_/ \_\ |
| 04:23.14 | vontrapp | that |
| 04:23.25 | vontrapp | my /exec didn't work right |
| 04:23.47 | levi | Well, yeah, except it was in Monaco instead of ascii art. |
| 04:24.09 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 04:28.15 | vontrapp | every time i run ooffice my cpu goes berzonkers |
| 04:28.24 | vontrapp | until i give gkrellm focus |
| 04:28.34 | vontrapp | then i go back to ooffice and more berzonkers |
| 04:30.23 | vontrapp | well, give anything else focus even |
| 04:31.07 | decriptor | vontrapp: what version |
| 04:31.14 | decriptor | of ooffice |
| 04:31.39 | vontrapp | 2.2.0 |
| 04:32.15 | vontrapp | hmm, not even just whenever ooffice has focus |
| 04:32.24 | vontrapp | it's only when ooffice has focus and nothing else is going on |
| 04:32.36 | decriptor | try 2.3.0 |
| 04:32.36 | decriptor | see if that helps |
| 04:32.36 | vontrapp | i merely move the mouse and the cpu goes back to normal |
| 04:32.41 | decriptor | wierd |
| 04:33.08 | vontrapp | not in my repo :/ |
| 04:33.37 | tensai | vontrapp: I logged out and my keyboard is back to normal |
| 04:34.02 | tensai | that'll teach me to try dvorak |
| 04:34.28 | vontrapp | did you add dvorak to XkbBlah? |
| 04:34.43 | decriptor | tensai: it could be like windows where is switches mid typing... |
| 04:35.00 | tensai | vontrapp: I did. I'm thinking about pushing my luck and trying it again |
| 04:35.46 | vontrapp | again, i didn't have much luck with setxkbmap |
| 04:35.50 | vontrapp | but i don't think i really tried it after i knew what the whole xkb thing was about |
| 04:36.03 | vontrapp | did you try xxkb? |
| 04:36.07 | vontrapp | i really like that one |
| 04:36.13 | tensai | it won't install |
| 04:38.21 | vontrapp | it takes some setting up to get the images though |
| 04:38.21 | vontrapp | oh right, you said that |
| 04:38.21 | vontrapp | what distro? |
| 04:42.56 | tensai | ubuntu fiesty |
| 04:43.11 | tensai | kde has a little thing that handles it |
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| 04:44.37 | tensai | now that elg is here, I'll finish my thought about pizza |
| 04:44.42 | tensai | my other favorite is grilled pizza |
| 04:47.19 | Det3 | Okay, need to get away from teh chat. |
| 04:55.34 | elg | grilled eh? |
| 04:56.09 | tensai | yes. AB has a recipe in one of his books (gear for your kitchen, iirc) |
| 04:56.48 | tensai | I also blogged about it a while ago. the nice thing about the flavor is that it cooks far less than your normal pizza, so it's more of a fresh taste. |
| 04:57.00 | tensai | plus there's lots of garlic and olive oil, which is never a bad thing |
| 04:57.10 | elg | how long does it cook? |
| 04:57.18 | tensai | 5 minutes a side |
| 04:57.30 | tensai | http://www.zmonkey.org/blog/node/94 |
| 04:57.50 | elg | true brick oven pizza is done in 3 minutes |
| 04:58.03 | elg | at 700° or so |
| 04:58.16 | elg | so it depends on what your normal pizza is. :) |
| 04:58.42 | tensai | I cooked my no-knead bread at 500° rather than the 450 I usually do, and I didn't like the effect. I think I prefer 450°. |
| 04:59.01 | elg | bread is a different story |
| 04:59.01 | tensai | elg: I mean the food is cooked less, not that it takes less time |
| 05:00.04 | elg | i like the brown |
| 05:00.19 | elg | crispy pepperoni, browned cheese, browned/charred crust |
| 05:00.27 | elg | that's where all the goodness is |
| 05:00.55 | tensai | you come over and have my grilled pizza. you'll like it. it's not "better". it's completely different. |
| 05:01.05 | elg | cool |
| 05:02.28 | Tene | tensai: so when can I come get some? |
| 05:03.51 | tensai | Tene: whenever you're in idaho |
| 05:04.30 | Tene | Jerk. |
| 05:04.34 | Tene | ~plig tensai |
| 05:04.35 | ibot | ACTION ties tensai down and proceeds to explain the advantages of perl^w python^w ruby^w haskell^w lisp^w scheme^w java^w C^w forth^w bf^w elg^w pascal |
| 05:04.53 | tensai | but but, that's where I live |
| 05:05.05 | Tene | Oh, okay. |
| 05:05.21 | Tene | Maybe, then, if you're near IF. |
| 05:05.56 | tensai | I'm very near IF. you might even say I live in IF. if you did, you'd be correct. |
| 05:06.33 | Tene | I've got a few relatives in IF. I go up there about once per year. |
| 05:06.54 | tensai | jayce and redbeard have both visited. it's a party town. |
| 05:09.20 | Tene | xkcd++ |
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| 05:44.04 | tensai | wow. color depth on a television is pathetic. I can't wait to upgrade to digital. |
| 05:50.03 | levi | Digital TV is nice. |
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| 08:27.55 | Lakshmi | hey people |
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| 12:31.01 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> The channel for content free discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | PLIG RFC: http://plig.jottit.com/ | Be excellent to each other. |
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| 14:20.46 | tensai | http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html |
| 14:20.52 | brac | [7 reasons I switched back to PHP after 2 years on Rails - O'Reilly Ruby] |
| 14:21.04 | elg | saw that |
| 14:21.33 | vontrapp_ | who owould do that? |
| 14:21.43 | elg | i interviewed with him but our time didn't match up. maybe he wouldn't have wasted so much time trying to wrangle rails to do what it wasn't designed to do |
| 14:22.24 | elg | what is irrelevant about that article is that he could have rewritten from scratch in ruby or perl or whatever just as well as PHP |
| 14:23.17 | vontrapp_ | what do you mean you interviewed with him? |
| 14:23.26 | elg | phone interview |
| 14:23.50 | elg | he contacted me back in provo, just before I moved to come to school |
| 14:27.33 | sjansen | His point was, he knew PHP better than Ruby. Already had PHP code so it was easier to do a migration to the clean code. (Although with a little planning it should've been possible to do a gradual Rails rollout, but his plan was to flip a giant switch on everything one day.) |
| 14:28.23 | sjansen | Basically, his point was "I was acting crazy. I've decided to act safe. I have more experience with PHP so it feels safer." |
| 14:28.43 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 14:28.58 | sjansen | Although his criticism of speed and hardware requirements is valid. Ruby is slow and that makes Rails hardware hungry. |
| 14:31.13 | elg | is php fast? i have no idea |
| 14:31.21 | vontrapp_ | yeah, that all makes sense, when time and money are issues, do what works best for you |
| 14:31.49 | vontrapp_ | i really don't like his whole apples to oranges, comparing php to rails thing though |
| 14:31.50 | elg | always do what works best for you, say I |
| 14:32.20 | elg | whether it's rails or php or perl or whatever, don't migrate just because it's the buzz |
| 14:33.15 | sjansen | Yes, PHP can be very fast. Especially when combined with an accelerator. |
| 14:33.38 | vontrapp_ | it's like "my php does whatever i tell it to, rails makes me do things i don't want to" |
| 14:33.47 | sjansen | Well.... |
| 14:33.55 | vontrapp_ | which is very true, but the way he says it, he should be like "rails is a framework, i just needed a language, so i used php" |
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| 14:36.52 | sjansen | Rails is answer to an old problem that used to bug me: many Web apps are CRUD. Data in, data out, modified data in, modified data out. Repetitive, repetitive, repetitive. |
| 14:37.36 | elg | that doesn't bug you now? |
| 14:37.43 | elg | have you reached web programming zen? |
| 14:37.49 | sjansen | There's only two reasonable responses available to a good programmer: 1) Build a framework or 2) Stop working on such boring software and find something less cookie cutter to do. |
| 14:38.07 | sjansen | elg: I chose to get the **** out of Dodge. |
| 14:38.13 | elg | :) |
| 14:38.14 | elg | me too |
| 14:41.22 | sjansen | From the outside, I would've expected CD Baby to be pretty boring. Guess not. They must have enough non-CRUD secret sauce to make Rails less useful. |
| 14:41.24 | vontrapp_ | dodge? the car manufacturers? |
| 14:41.44 | sjansen | Dodge, the city where they shoot at you. |
| 14:42.53 | sjansen | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=out+of+dodge |
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| 14:44.15 | elg | hmm. byu cs dept is looking for a new tenure-track faculty in fall 08 |
| 14:44.44 | elg | *if* I managed to finish in time, I wonder if I would have a chance |
| 14:46.23 | sjansen | That'd be cool. It'd almost make me want to do my MS at BYU just so I could harass you. |
| 14:46.49 | sjansen | "Oh, lookie there, elg is teach CS253. You know, I could use a refresher on recursive proofs..." |
| 14:46.59 | elg | haha |
| 14:49.07 | elg | we'd both have to shave |
| 14:49.24 | sjansen | Wasn't SCOX supposed to be delisted yesterday? |
| 14:50.07 | goozbach | ~quote scox |
| 14:58.39 | tensai | see I thought elg posted that for Newsome's benefit |
| 15:02.35 | Newsome | they've been lower, but they've been bouncing between about 15 and 20 cents |
| 15:03.45 | tensai | I keep thinking that it would be so much fun to have a SCO stock certificate. you certainly can't beat the price and it won't last long. |
| 15:05.14 | Newsome | it would cost more to get the stock issued as a certificate than it would to buy the 100 shares of stock :) |
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| 15:31.26 | redbeard2 | i apparently need to keep better tabs on sports |
| 15:31.48 | redbeard2 | i just had a group of students laugh at me for not knowing there was an NFL team named the texans. |
| 15:31.55 | RyanE | news to me |
| 15:32.16 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 15:33.09 | redbeard2 | http://www.nfl.com/teams/houstontexans/profile?team=HOU |
| 15:35.29 | sontek | they've only been around for like 5 years, they used to be called the oilers |
| 15:36.09 | sontek | If I remember right, I haven't watched football in years :P |
| 15:36.30 | sontek | The oilers renamed to 'Tennessee Titans' |
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| 15:37.38 | Det3 | hm. Football. Buncha wimps in US football. |
| 15:38.17 | Det3 | They use padding. :-) |
| 15:39.48 | sontek | Det3: yeah, but they are also huge =) |
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| 15:40.02 | sontek | Det3: Rugby players are a bunch of wimps because they don't get above 200 |
| 15:40.49 | maquis | rugby is fun to watch |
| 15:40.55 | maquis | looks kinda painful to play |
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| 15:41.47 | Det3 | hAHAHAH. :-) |
| 15:41.54 | Det3 | whooops, capslock. |
| 15:42.00 | Det3 | sontek: good on ya! |
| 15:59.55 | levi | elg: Nice Ruby solution to Sasha's challenge. |
| 16:00.14 | levi | elg: I have an evil C program that does it, but there's still a bug I'm trying to track down. |
| 16:00.16 | elg | I learned something too. wasn't aware of $`, $& and $' |
| 16:01.18 | brasto | what |
| 16:01.21 | brasto | doh! |
| 16:01.53 | Tene | elg: be careful with using those in perl. |
| 16:02.01 | brasto | what's the bz2 unzip/untar equiv of this for gzip'ed files: tar -xzf [filename] |
| 16:02.19 | brasto | man is a bit confusing on this |
| 16:02.22 | brasto | ~man |
| 16:02.22 | ibot | Tem and Tain are the man. |
| 16:02.56 | brasto | ibot, man is also Unix program documentation |
| 16:02.56 | ibot | No manual entry for is also Unix program documentation |
| 16:03.59 | fungus | brasto: tar -xzf filename will uncompress (z), and extract (x) the specified file (f) |
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| 16:04.26 | fungus | tar -xjf filename will uncompress bzip style (j), and extract (x) the specified file (f) |
| 16:05.48 | fungus | If you forget, just remember that the compression is done after the tar'ring. You can always use your normal uncompression tools first, then standard tar. |
| 16:06.18 | goozbach | I remeber it like this: |
| 16:06.30 | fungus | tar -zxf myarchive.tar.gz is the same as gunzip myarchive.tar.gz && tar -xf myarchive.tar |
| 16:06.32 | goozbach | x is for eXtract |
| 16:06.39 | goozbach | c is for Create |
| 16:06.49 | goozbach | f is for File |
| 16:07.12 | goozbach | Z is for Compress (don't laugh) |
| 16:07.22 | goozbach | z is for bZip |
| 16:07.39 | goozbach | s/bzip/gZip/ |
| 16:07.48 | goozbach | and j is for bzip |
| 16:08.08 | goozbach | brasto: or you could do it the super easy way: |
| 16:08.18 | goozbach | tar -xf somearchive.tar.bz2 |
| 16:08.45 | goozbach | tar is smart enough to find out the compression type |
| 16:09.17 | fungus | really? cool! new super shortcut. |
| 16:10.42 | orbit | Add a v in there if you want to see the list of files/dirs as they unpack |
| 16:11.36 | goozbach | tar and compression being two steps is silly anmore |
| 16:11.43 | goozbach | s/anmore/anymore/ |
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| 16:22.21 | brasto | goozbach: I'm fairly certain I tried that and it didn't work. However, I tried it on a freebsd 4.7 distro, so I'll test on my freebsd 6.2... |
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| 16:24.17 | Supaplex | fungus: yup, I just ran tar that way myself about 10m ago :) |
| 16:26.49 | fungus | brasto: It might not work on BSD since they use their own tar. I haven't yet confirmed the shortcut on BSD tar. |
| 16:28.06 | brasto | cool... that worked goozback and fungus - on freebsd |
| 16:29.52 | brasto | freebsd uses bsdtar, so yes, it's different - eg: no -j option (not that I noticed anyway) |
| 16:33.12 | fungus | 4.7 is ancient news. of course tar in 6.2 is better |
| 16:33.55 | fungus | Ever consider upgrading that 4.7 box? |
| 16:34.00 | brasto | fungus and goozbach - turns out I was wrong, bsdtar does have a -j option |
| 16:34.13 | brasto | I moved everything from the 4.7 box only recently |
| 16:34.19 | brasto | so... yep. |
| 16:34.22 | brasto | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:34.23 | brasto | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:34.23 | brasto | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:34.23 | brasto | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:37.07 | sjansen | Isn't BSD dying? I thought no one even used it anymore. |
| 16:39.53 | fungus | Nope, not true. It still thrives in it's obscurity. |
| 16:40.28 | fungus | Have you seen the latest netcraft reports. |
| 16:41.02 | fungus | 3 of the top ten most reliable hosting companies run FreeBSD |
| 16:41.13 | fungus | Only 2 run Linux |
| 16:42.09 | sjansen | That doesn't mean anything. There are companies still running OS/2 'cause they haven't had a chance to move off yet. |
| 16:42.30 | JoshH | 3 with fbsd and 2 with linux, not exactly a huge difference :) |
| 16:42.32 | sjansen | At least OS/2 has a GUI. FreeBSD is so ancient it doesn't even have a GUI. |
| 16:42.53 | fungus | FreeBSD does have a GUI, it's not installed by default. |
| 16:43.07 | fungus | Try DesktopBSD or PC-BSD for GUI desktops |
| 16:43.33 | sjansen | Oh yeah, I forgot, what's it called again Motif? X13? |
| 16:43.49 | elg | levi: if i can figure out how to match, process, and substitute in erlang in the next 5 minutes I'll do it in erlang too |
| 16:43.50 | fungus | Not, Desktop and PC-BSD both install KDE |
| 16:44.02 | elg | i see how to match with regexp. gives me indices for beginning and end |
| 16:44.03 | sjansen | Didn't Sun invent that? |
| 16:44.10 | JoshH | i think it has xfree86 3 by now |
| 16:44.24 | sjansen | I thought you had to pay major money to get CDE. |
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| 16:44.28 | fungus | Also, one cannot forget that NetBSD runs on more platforms than any other OS. |
| 16:44.42 | sjansen | FreeBSD isn't very free if you have to pay Sun a bunch of money for the GUI. |
| 16:44.57 | sjansen | Why not just buy Solaris and get it over with? |
| 16:45.01 | fungus | Also, OpenBSD is the hands-down winner when it comes to security. |
| 16:45.25 | elg | no way, dos is |
| 16:45.36 | sjansen | Contiki. |
| 16:45.49 | fungus | Wrong, OpenBSD beats DOS security by miles. |
| 16:46.16 | elg | name one high-profile DOS security breach in the past 3 years |
| 16:46.30 | sjansen | Hmm... looks like OpenBSD only supports one CPU. What kinda trash is that? |
| 16:46.41 | elg | enhances security |
| 16:46.42 | fungus | Easy, any user using it has full access to the system. Big security hole. |
| 16:47.36 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@137.65.56.123) |
| 16:47.40 | sjansen | Security is about preventing users from using the system in a way the system was not designed to be used. elg is right, DOS is more secure. |
| 16:47.42 | fungus | http://openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#SMP |
| 16:47.43 | brac | [8 - General Questions] |
| 16:48.17 | fungus | sjansen: Do you use SSH? |
| 16:48.25 | fungus | How much you wanna bet it is OpenSSH? |
| 16:48.28 | elg | ssh is for paranoics |
| 16:48.38 | elg | I use snail mail |
| 16:49.15 | sjansen | I heard if you don't pay some buy named Theo every month he'll come to your company and start screaming loud rants about cheap skate CEO's. That's why they call him Theo the Rant. |
| 16:49.26 | sjansen | No thanks. Penguins are more cuddly. |
| 16:50.12 | fungus | LOL, you're just being silly now. |
| 16:50.55 | sjansen | I tried OpenSSH once. Had some trouble getting my Linux box to talk to HP-UX. Went back to telnet and ftp. |
| 16:51.09 | sjansen | What do I need SSH for anyway? I've got a VPN. That should be enough. |
| 16:51.26 | fungus | LOL |
| 16:51.37 | fungus | Now that is a good one. |
| 16:51.50 | sjansen | Shoot, I guess I overplayed my hand. |
| 16:53.02 | sjansen | Okay, I admit it, everything from BSD is dying to the previous comment was a lie. I know BSD isn't dying. (Or is it?) And y'all been using our X.org/Gnome/KDE for years. And OpenBSD added SMP support last week. |
| 16:54.12 | fungus | X.org/Gnome/KDE don't *belong* to Linux. |
| 16:54.13 | sjansen | Well, except for the part about OpenSSH and HP-UX, if you don't configure HP-UX correctly OpenSSH's sftp can't find sftp-server. |
| 16:54.33 | fungus | Well HP-UX sucks anyway. :) |
| 16:54.59 | sjansen | Sure they do. Most of the developers use Linux. The only one's that don't are corporate shills or bored college students. |
| 16:55.34 | fungus | Speaking of bored college students... (cough)Linus(cough) |
| 16:55.36 | sjansen | Linux keeps adding cool stuff like udev & inotify & dbus & selinux & PolicyKit & etc. |
| 16:56.07 | sjansen | All FreeBSD does is copy Linux ideas. Well, that and optimize their network stack. |
| 16:56.10 | dataw0lf | BSD _is_ dying. It may be a slow death, and preventable, but it is dying. |
| 16:56.47 | dataw0lf | sjansen: but have you compared BSD and Linux network metrics with the 2.6 kernel? especially packet mangling / filtering? |
| 16:56.52 | fungus | sjansen: are you ignoring the work Theo and the OpenBSD group are doing to get hardware vendors to open their drivers, and specs? |
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| 16:58.20 | fungus | I agree that FreeBSD is behind in many ways, but it's not dead yet. |
| 16:59.19 | fungus | http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/spamalot/heisnotdeadyet.htm |
| 16:59.21 | brac | [Lyrics, He Is Not Dead Yet Lyrics >>] |
| 17:00.11 | dataw0lf | I never said it was dead yet. It's just dying. |
| 17:00.29 | fungus | Yeah, it probably is... It is really sad. |
| 17:01.00 | dataw0lf | maybe if Apple gave more back to the BSD community.... |
| 17:01.03 | dataw0lf | but I digress. |
| 17:01.30 | fungus | lol, agreed. Imagine what would happen then. whoa. |
| 17:01.42 | sjansen | dataw0lf: Oh, well, yes of course. Everyone knows netfilter is better than pf. |
| 17:01.53 | dataw0lf | sjansen: true that. |
| 17:02.26 | fungus | Now that I disagree with. I love pf. Might not be as extendable or flexible, but is a hell of a lot cleaner. |
| 17:02.31 | sjansen | Then FreeBSD could run on a slow semi-microkernel too! |
| 17:03.39 | dataw0lf | fungus: that would be iptables versus pf |
| 17:03.41 | sjansen | You know, sometimes I read the list of new features added to Linux each week and I wonder: How can anyone else hope to compete? |
| 17:03.54 | sjansen | Then I realize, they can't. Not for long. |
| 17:04.21 | dataw0lf | dang, sjansen, you're much more obvious with the trolling today then usual. You sound like me. Where did your subtlety go? |
| 17:04.29 | elg | nothing exciting would happen if apple gave back. well, exciting in eye-candy ways |
| 17:04.39 | elg | but underneath the covers, linux is superior to osx too |
| 17:05.12 | fungus | In many ways yes, but there are some "under the covers" stuff that is cool in osx. |
| 17:05.16 | dataw0lf | I despise OS X, I'm merely saying that if the work their kernel engineers are doing could be shared with the BSD community in some sort of mutual beneficial manner, BSD may stand a better chance of living. |
| 17:05.18 | fungus | eg. launchd |
| 17:05.21 | sjansen | I'm bored with subtle. Today I decided to go with true but politically incorrect. |
| 17:05.33 | dataw0lf | sjansen: Ah. Nice choice. |
| 17:05.38 | elg | launchd sucks with a capital VACUUM |
| 17:06.05 | dataw0lf | I really don't like launchd either. |
| 17:06.26 | elg | would you like a side of insensitivity with that, sjansen? |
| 17:06.36 | sjansen | launchd was a good proof of concept. Although you could argue others came up with most of the ideas first. Eventually Linux will have something better. |
| 17:07.14 | fungus | Hopefully Linux will implement a better version. I like the ideas. The implementation isn't the best though. |
| 17:07.31 | sjansen | Dependencies? Gentoo had that, probably others too. Asynchronous? SUSE had that, probably others too. Events? I'll see your events and raise you dbus. |
| 17:08.15 | fungus | But it's beauty is it's simplicity and centralization. |
| 17:08.20 | elg | ubuntu uses that new one |
| 17:08.29 | fungus | inetd, rc, cron in one spot. |
| 17:08.32 | elg | don't remember the name. looked promising |
| 17:08.39 | fungus | Upstart |
| 17:08.42 | elg | yeah |
| 17:08.58 | elg | personally I think something like runit, with some of the features of upstart, is a good way to go |
| 17:09.17 | elg | but it has to maintain simplicity and transparency in the UNIX way |
| 17:09.22 | sjansen | There are actually several launchd like programs being designed right now. Ubuntu got all the press, but Fedora is working on one too. And like I said other distros already have some of the framework. |
| 17:09.36 | elg | launchd is like XML on hallucigens having a nightmare |
| 17:09.38 | sjansen | elg: And not involve XML. |
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| 17:09.53 | sjansen | Heh, guess we agree. |
| 17:10.18 | levi | Wow, agreement. |
| 17:10.21 | fungus | Yeah the broken plist thing OSX does really sucks. It is broken XML not really true XML. |
| 17:10.23 | levi | We can't be having any of that here. |
| 17:10.36 | elg | just enabling a service that isn't enabled by default (say, at) is a mysterious incantation that you have to google (and wade through the not-quite-right versions) |
| 17:10.43 | sjansen | levi: I disagree. I think we can. |
| 17:10.59 | levi | elg: OK, my solution to the time conversion thing is up. |
| 17:11.13 | levi | I wasted far too much time last night on that. |
| 17:12.02 | levi | Mine would make Wirth cry. |
| 17:12.04 | decriptor_ | jayce: ping |
| 17:12.19 | elg | sweet, a state machine! |
| 17:12.52 | levi | I thought of doing the state machine with labels and gotos for the states instead of an outer switch, but this is what came out instead. |
| 17:13.09 | elg | :) |
| 17:13.41 | levi | Take that, high-level-language weenies! ;) |
| 17:13.47 | levi | I don't need no stinkin' regex engine! |
| 17:14.19 | elg | you almost tempt me to write something in lex |
| 17:14.45 | elg | good thing my lex/yacc book is at home |
| 17:15.26 | Supaplex | yeah, not like google can't find one online. |
| 17:15.28 | levi | I would also like to write a parsing expression grammar for it. |
| 17:15.39 | levi | elg: Did you see this? http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~awarth/papers/dls07.pdf |
| 17:15.53 | levi | "OMeta: an Object-Oriented Language for Pattern Matching" |
| 17:17.45 | elg | no, looks interesting |
| 17:17.59 | elg | Supaplex: can't find what? |
| 17:19.11 | levi | elg: It builds extended PEGs into the language, and you can use them for pattern matching code was well as data, apparently. |
| 17:19.36 | levi | I really like PEGs. |
| 17:19.37 | Supaplex | elg: your lex/yacc book (or equiv) |
| 17:19.46 | elg | accept no substitutions |
| 17:19.59 | elg | if you find the o'reilly lex/yacc book in pdf format, that would be sufficient |
| 17:20.32 | Supaplex | if you know the isbn+upc you can get the book samples on their website |
| 17:24.02 | levi | Huh, Jesse has gone full-time with his Facebook developing/consulting business. |
| 17:24.51 | levi | I signed up to Facebook to see what it was about. Yow; so full of useless stuff! But at least it looks nicer than MySpace. |
| 17:25.07 | elg | you are more curious than I |
| 17:25.11 | atoponce | i don't see the code attached to levi's mail. am i missing something? |
| 17:25.40 | levi | atoponce: Shows up for me both in gnus and gmail |
| 17:26.09 | atoponce | hmm... odd. i see it in gmail too, but not iceape... |
| 17:26.35 | levi | iceape must suck. |
| 17:26.39 | atoponce | heh |
| 17:26.41 | atoponce | must |
| 17:26.59 | atoponce | ahh. there it is |
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| 17:56.25 | wps | jayce: loved you post about the java guys and whiteboards |
| 17:56.38 | wps | induced a hearty chuckle |
| 17:58.09 | atoponce | jbellis needs a little smackdown here and there |
| 18:00.33 | mrpull | heh... remember the discussion here a couple weeks ago about using a spreadsheet program other than excel |
| 18:00.35 | mrpull | ? |
| 18:00.43 | mrpull | http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/28/1518246&from=rss |
| 18:01.13 | mrpull | i was joking when I suggesting using a SQL database... are these commenters joking or serious? |
| 18:03.18 | elg | one man's joke is another /. commentor's bright idea |
| 18:06.28 | Supaplex | depending on the application, sql could be a lot better. How many companies store ip address space assignments with dozens of worksheets per xls? |
| 18:06.59 | vontrapp | haha, "Want to see a shrink? Use emacs" |
| 18:07.12 | vontrapp | if that ain't the truth .... |
| 18:08.27 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 18:14.03 | Supaplex | off the top of your head, does anyone recall how awk can match a field and print the line only if the match is there? |
| 18:14.59 | atoponce | vontrapp: it's the difference between maintaing an entire platform or a text editor |
| 18:15.02 | atoponce | i prefer the latter. :) |
| 18:33.20 | goozbach | I found another picture of sjansen http://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/mediarelations/ken_29057_53720.jpg |
| 18:33.26 | goozbach | :) |
| 18:37.06 | Supaplex | so much for awk. I have perl. <3 |
| 18:38.22 | mrpull | goozbach: what are those in front of pseudo-sjansen? coins? |
| 18:38.54 | goozbach | Supaplex: here's my take, if it's too complicated for sort|grep|cut then you *NEED* to be using perl |
| 18:39.26 | goozbach | mrpull: no idea, it's from the /. article about making an ice age using iron |
| 18:40.40 | Supaplex | I've seen awk do it before. I don't recall the syntax. that's why I grabbed the trusty "better memory than me" dead-tree notebook. |
| 18:41.04 | goozbach | AWK had it's day |
| 18:41.11 | goozbach | until perl came around |
| 18:41.35 | goozbach | mrpull: he'res the article: http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=282&cid=32086&ct=162. |
| 18:42.02 | Supaplex | no loss. I <3 perl anyway |
| 18:45.11 | Supaplex | humm Need to get 1479MB/1517MB of archives. After unpacking 3708MB will be used. |
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| 18:48.48 | levi | Well, I'm glad at least one person appreciated my C program. |
| 18:49.56 | Supaplex | oh? |
| 18:50.10 | levi | elg said something like, 'cool, a state machine' |
| 18:50.31 | tensai | I long ago abandoned awk/sed/etc. for straight up perl and I've never regretted it |
| 18:50.36 | Supaplex | ahh. I didn't look at that yet. sounds interesting. |
| 18:50.58 | levi | tensai: Well, if those are your alternatives... |
| 18:51.08 | Supaplex | sometimes perl isn't available, so I like keeping the old skills refined. :) |
| 18:51.22 | Supaplex | s/the old/alternate/ |
| 18:51.24 | tensai | Supaplex: yes, we maintain probably 50,000 IP addresses in a series of spreadsheets and it's a nightmare |
| 18:51.28 | levi | Those are the sources of perl's evil, anyway. |
| 18:52.11 | tensai | levi: and you would prefer...? |
| 18:52.31 | Supaplex | tensai: seems like a common itch |
| 18:53.26 | tensai | Supaplex: if you ever find a scratcher, please let me know |
| 18:54.21 | levi | tensai: Well, perl makes a pretty good text munger. I just don't munge a lot of text. |
| 18:55.07 | tensai | I'm lucky/unlucky enough to munge quite a bit and keeping track of all the syntaxes was just too much |
| 18:55.27 | levi | I agree, using perl is probably better than sed/awk/etc. |
| 18:58.43 | levi | I don't have much use for bash, sed, awk, etc. I think they're ugly, nasty little languages, and I'm glad I don't have to deal with them in depth. |
| 18:59.58 | Tene | levi: what are you saying are the sources of perl's evil? |
| 19:00.33 | levi | sed, awk, and the other mini-languages that were forged together in unholy union at its heart. |
| 19:00.46 | RyanE | levi: heh |
| 19:02.30 | vontrapp | ugh, i hate it when computers close your connections to go to sleep |
| 19:03.05 | levi | Fortunately, perl itself isn't as evil as the sum of its more evil bits. |
| 19:03.12 | vontrapp | well, i guess going to sleep is one thing, but on a windows machine when i'm putty'd in and the _screensaver_ comes on, i come back to it and my connection is dead |
| 19:03.42 | levi | vontrapp: Yeah, the screensaver thing is annoying, but there's not much you could do about the sleep part. |
| 19:04.11 | Tene | Ahh. |
| 19:04.18 | elg | Ohh. |
| 19:04.31 | levi | Ooh. |
| 19:04.38 | elg | Ehh. |
| 19:04.55 | vontrapp | someone beat me to the scheme solution |
| 19:04.57 | levi | Eeeh. |
| 19:05.25 | elg | defunitely |
| 19:05.33 | levi | vontrapp: No, that was Common Lisp. |
| 19:05.54 | levi | The scheme solution would look rather different. |
| 19:08.30 | levi | I was thinking of doing it in Scheme, but it was easier to hack up a state machine in C. |
| 19:11.53 | levi | See, this contest is an example of the sort of thing PLIG would be good for. |
| 19:13.18 | vontrapp | ~contest levi |
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| 19:50.31 | levi | So tired. |
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| 20:00.37 | herlo | http://xkcd.com/322/ |
| 20:00.38 | brac | [xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe] |
| 20:09.44 | atoponce | http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openbsd-misc/2007/9/1/153822 |
| 20:09.46 | atoponce | thoughts? |
| 20:13.36 | beandog | yes. |
| 20:13.39 | beandog | use ck-sources. |
| 20:14.38 | beandog | Seriously though, you cant use bsd license and then scream bloody murder when people actually take the code and do with it whatever they want. |
| 20:15.11 | Supaplex | unless they ommit credits |
| 20:15.16 | beandog | even then, its called dual-licensing |
| 20:15.19 | beandog | Supaplex, right |
| 20:21.26 | sontek | ck stopped his sources |
| 20:23.54 | levi | beandog: Why can't you get upset when you choose a permissive license and people still violate it? |
| 20:25.06 | beandog | sontek, I know, super sucky. :( |
| 20:25.29 | levi | Just because the BSD guys don't have an unshaven hippy spending all his time screaming about the license and generally getting in people's faces doesn't mean it's any less binding. |
| 20:25.39 | beandog | levi, Im not convinced, in that case, it was violated |
| 20:25.46 | beandog | levi, I agree. |
| 20:26.03 | beandog | just ignore me :) |
| 20:26.44 | levi | Well, removing the license is pretty clearly in violation. I haven't followed it in detail, because I don't really care, but if someone removed the license they're pretty clearly in violation. |
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| 20:28.21 | beandog | levi, oh is that what they did? I thought they just kinda re-licensed it, keeping the old one, but if they ditched the old one completely, then yes, Id be pissed as well. |
| 20:28.27 | Tene | levi: what's the proper way to indicate "You can use this code under *either* of these two available licenses. Take your pick."? |
| 20:28.43 | beandog | Tene, you can dual-license stuff pretty easily. |
| 20:28.54 | beandog | There are some interesting dual-license (or even tri-) scenarios |
| 20:28.59 | PelaoFeliz | Yeah -- how can you use mutually exclusive licenses |
| 20:29.04 | beandog | Ive seen ones where its public domain / BSD / gpl tri-licensed |
| 20:29.04 | levi | Tene: You can't do that if you don't own the code to begin with. |
| 20:29.12 | atoponce | you have to keep them all in tact, however, if you redistribute |
| 20:29.24 | elg | no |
| 20:29.41 | levi | Tene: If you own the code, you simply distribute it with a single license of your choice to the individual. |
| 20:29.42 | elg | you pick one, or pick them all |
| 20:30.14 | elg | i.e. if something is dual licensed gpl and x, I can make changes and redistribute under gpl only |
| 20:30.14 | levi | Tene: If you have someone else's BSD-licensed code, you can't say 'You get to pick BSD or GPL for my version'. |
| 20:30.15 | tensai | PelaoFeliz: if you own the copyright, you could release it under 100 different licenses if you want |
| 20:30.16 | atoponce | elg: you can't pick the one you like, stripping the others |
| 20:30.17 | elg | or x only |
| 20:30.20 | elg | sure you can |
| 20:30.35 | elg | that's what it means to dual license |
| 20:30.36 | atoponce | from what i understand, that's breaking the license |
| 20:30.46 | atoponce | that's what his point is in that post, i gather |
| 20:30.49 | elg | or you can make a new SINGLE license that is "everything in GPL plus everything in X" |
| 20:31.05 | elg | or whatever combinatory logic you want to use |
| 20:31.07 | levi | elg: That's if the code is yours to begin with. |
| 20:31.13 | atoponce | right |
| 20:31.14 | elg | but then you're not distributing it under two licenses |
| 20:31.24 | tensai | this code in question isn't dual licensed. it's BSD licensed. period |
| 20:31.25 | PelaoFeliz | so if I dual license my code with a license saying "nobody can ever copy this code ever no matter what", and "free code, do whatever you want with it, no attribution, no license restrictions, nothing", then what? |
| 20:31.27 | elg | you're distributing it under one license that resembles two licenses mishmashed together |
| 20:31.28 | atoponce | i can't take firefox, strip two of the three licenses, and redistribute |
| 20:31.34 | elg | that's not what people mean when they say dual license |
| 20:31.47 | elg | levi: naturally |
| 20:31.52 | tensai | PelaoFeliz: people are obliged to the terms of whichever license they accept |
| 20:31.57 | levi | elg: That's not what was happening in the case in question. |
| 20:31.59 | elg | PelaoFeliz: they can pick their poison |
| 20:32.07 | elg | well I don't care what the case in question is :) |
| 20:32.32 | levi | elg: Some guy took BSD-licensed code and added some stuff and wanted it to be GPL. |
| 20:32.39 | PelaoFeliz | so... you only have to abide by 1 of the licenses? |
| 20:33.00 | levi | PelaoFeliz: If it's dual-licensed and you get to pick, then yes. |
| 20:33.08 | elg | PelaoFeliz: yes. whenever you redistribute it to someone, you have to be in compliance with one of the licenses |
| 20:33.15 | PelaoFeliz | makes sense to me |
| 20:33.19 | levi | In this case, the original code was NOT dual-licensed. |
| 20:33.20 | elg | you don't have to pick one now and be bound to it for the rest of your life or anything |
| 20:33.24 | atoponce | sent to plug. i'm interested to see all opinions on this |
| 20:33.40 | tensai | PelaoFeliz: I could license some code to levi as GPL and other code to elg as proprietary. levi could redistribute and elg could not, even though they might be the same code. |
| 20:33.56 | elg | yup |
| 20:34.07 | elg | unless levi gave me his gpl code, then I could redistribute that under GPL |
| 20:34.07 | levi | atoponce: I think the only differences here are because some are talking about one thing and some are talking about another. |
| 20:34.19 | tensai | elg: exactly |
| 20:34.20 | PelaoFeliz | I don't see how you can have a legally binding license conglomerate, since the interpretation would be so messy -- seems there has to be a single license at some point |
| 20:34.36 | tensai | PelaoFeliz: if you own it, you get to write the rules |
| 20:34.46 | atoponce | levi: definitely |
| 20:34.51 | elg | and people and their lawyers get to argue the interpretation |
| 20:34.56 | tensai | id software has dual licensed (gpl/proprietary) their game engines for many years |
| 20:35.02 | elg | which is why you are best off choosing one that lawyers spewed forth |
| 20:36.44 | tensai | a while back somebody offered $50,000 to buy Linux under a proprietary license. the idea is outrageously impossible because all the code authors own their contributions. |
| 20:36.46 | elg | atoponce: re the plug post, you can't strip the license, BSD or otherwise |
| 20:37.01 | atoponce | right |
| 20:37.07 | tensai | so to relicense it every single person who added code would have to agree to it |
| 20:37.13 | elg | tensai: right, and they gave permission for gpl, but nothing else. |
| 20:37.21 | tensai | but if you are the sole author, it suddenly begins to be possible |
| 20:37.28 | elg | some projects (e.g. asterisk) require developers to sign over the code they contribute |
| 20:37.47 | elg | to a person or entity |
| 20:37.58 | elg | which could then re- or dual-license at a later time |
| 20:37.59 | tensai | elg: not quite. they still own the copyrights, but they grant digium a right to also distribute it non-gpl. |
| 20:38.13 | elg | ok, wasn't sure of the details |
| 20:38.22 | tensai | fsf, otoh, does require copyright assignment for some projects |
| 20:38.25 | elg | i'm thinking I have seen one that actually keeps the copyrights |
| 20:38.34 | tensai | that way the fsf owns the copyright and can pursue violations |
| 20:41.29 | tensai | whew, that was a fast paced and short lived copyright discussion |
| 20:41.37 | atoponce | heh |
| 20:42.00 | atoponce | frankly, anything deraadt posts, i turn a deaf ear to, but he has a valid point here i think |
| 20:42.19 | atoponce | i sense some fud in the post, however |
| 20:44.54 | tensai | that's the price of being so brazenly outspoken. people start to ignore you. |
| 20:48.24 | RyanE | tensai: were you saying something? :) |
| 20:48.50 | tensai | RyanE smells like dog doo! |
| 20:49.06 | RyanE | tensai: I know you are, but what am I? |
| 20:49.18 | tensai | curses! foiled again |
| 20:49.37 | RyanE | yeah, having 5 kids *finally* pays off... Woot! |
| 20:50.23 | tensai | my kids aren't old enough to start with the mental abuse. it's all physical for now. |
| 20:50.59 | goozbach | spelilng is not my strong suite |
| 20:51.24 | Supaplex | spelling* |
| 20:52.40 | goozbach | case in point |
| 20:52.41 | Supaplex | you have a suite. all I have is this lousy t-shirt. |
| 20:53.16 | tensai | sorry, that would be a suit |
| 20:53.56 | Supaplex | uh yeah. |
| 20:54.25 | *** join/#utah Yorokobi (n=Yorokobi@unaffiliated/yorokobi) |
| 20:55.45 | tensai | うれしい |
| 20:59.14 | Yorokobi | tensai, I would respond in kind but I don't have scim installed on this machine :) |
| 20:59.44 | tensai | mine broke yesterday and I wasted two good hours fixing it |
| 21:00.03 | tensai | turns out if LANG=en_US, scim gets really unhappy |
| 21:00.33 | tensai | but anyway, your nick always makes me smile :) |
| 21:02.25 | *** join/#utah kreg_lt (n=kreg@208.98.188.95) |
| 21:02.43 | Supaplex | I smiled when I tried to pronounce it. No idea what it means though :) |
| 21:06.24 | tensai | it means happiness |
| 21:07.20 | Supaplex | :) |
| 21:08.09 | Yorokobi | Break it down into syllables and roll the r: yoh-roh-koh-bee |
| 21:09.25 | goozbach | what does it mean? |
| 21:09.26 | Supaplex | yea, that's how it sounds in my head. |
| 21:09.31 | goozbach | pineapple? |
| 21:09.37 | atoponce | goozbach: 4 lines up |
| 21:09.48 | goozbach | ahh |
| 21:09.55 | goozbach | then it does mean pineapple! |
| 21:09.57 | goozbach | :) |
| 21:10.04 | atoponce | ~feed goozbach |
| 21:10.05 | ibot | ACTION offers goozbach some pizza |
| 21:10.17 | goozbach | *cheezy grin bounce* |
| 21:10.29 | goozbach | ~pineapple |
| 21:10.30 | ibot | ACTION dances around with a pineapple on her head, singing ~o pineapple pineapple pineapple ~o |
| 21:10.57 | goozbach | ~pineapple Yorokobi |
| 21:11.21 | Yorokobi | ~cucaracha goozbach |
| 21:11.38 | Yorokobi | huh, thwarted by ibot |
| 21:12.15 | atoponce | ibot has her ascii art wrong |
| 21:12.38 | atoponce | o/~ ~/o |
| 21:12.44 | goozbach | ~factinfo pineapple |
| 21:12.44 | ibot | pineapple -- created by goozbach <n=goozbach@brooks.netradius.com> at Wed Feb 21 19:47:58 2007 (219 days); it has been requested 12 times, last by goozbach, 2m 14s ago. |
| 21:13.09 | goozbach | correction, I have my ascii art wrong! |
| 21:13.39 | Yorokobi | ibot, cucaracha is $0 smashes cockroaches with army boots while singing o/~ La cucaracha, la cucaracha ~/o |
| 21:13.40 | ibot | Yorokobi: okay |
| 21:13.48 | Yorokobi | ~cucaracha yorokobi |
| 21:14.00 | Yorokobi | meh |
| 21:14.55 | atoponce | ibot: no, cucaracha $victim is <action> smashes cockroaches and $victim with army boots while singing o/~ La cucaracha, la cucaracha ~/o |
| 21:14.55 | ibot | atoponce: okay |
| 21:15.02 | Yorokobi | ah |
| 21:15.17 | goozbach | ibot: no, cucaracha $sjansen is <action> smashes cockroaches with army boots while singing o/~ La cucaracha, la cucaracha ~/o |
| 21:15.17 | ibot | goozbach: okay |
| 21:15.30 | goozbach | doh' |
| 21:15.42 | atoponce | ~smash goozbach |
| 21:15.43 | ibot | ACTION flings an anvil in goozbach's general direction |
| 21:15.50 | goozbach | ibot: no, cucaracha $sjansen is <action> smashes cockroaches and $sjansen with army boots while singing o/~ La cucaracha, la cucaracha ~/o |
| 21:15.50 | ibot | okay, goozbach |
| 21:16.06 | goozbach | ~cucarach Yorokobi |
| 21:16.14 | goozbach | ~cucaracha Yorokobi |
| 21:16.14 | ibot | ACTION smashes cockroaches and Yorokobi with army boots while singing o/~ La cucaracha, la cucaracha ~/o |
| 21:19.21 | Yorokobi | ja matta, minnasan |
| 21:20.51 | atoponce | ~x jp en ja matta, minnasan |
| 21:24.24 | atoponce | ja matta ne minna-san i think is what he was after... |
| 21:36.47 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@fugalh.NMSU.Edu) |
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| 22:06.48 | nick125 | http://infowars.net/articles/september2007/280907Cake.htm < ... |
| 22:06.50 | brac | [School Guards Break Child's Arm And Arrest Her For Dropping Cake] |
| 22:07.01 | nick125 | Someone needs to be fired and thrown in jail for a while. |
| 22:10.35 | beandog | wth? |
| 22:11.18 | beandog | I think security guards just enjoy wrestling people to the ground, for any reason whatsoever. |
| 22:12.20 | nick125 | Maybe they can wrestle "Bubba" in a jail cell. |
| 22:12.32 | levi | beandog: Why else would anyone else want to be a security guard? |
| 22:12.37 | beandog | levi, the gun? |
| 22:12.44 | levi | Well, same thing. |
| 22:12.46 | beandog | :) |
| 22:13.01 | beandog | the chance to be on "COPS" |
| 22:13.03 | *** join/#utah decriptor (i=sshaw@nat/novell/x-0830e27260bcdd02) |
| 22:13.07 | beandog | free donuts |
| 22:13.15 | beandog | thats all I can think of. |
| 22:14.18 | beandog | too bad they didnt post the video ofthe incident |
| 22:14.22 | beandog | or did they just have pictures |
| 22:14.31 | nick125 | they do have a video, I believe |
| 22:14.40 | beandog | oh |
| 22:14.44 | beandog | two links, doh |
| 22:15.09 | nick125 | You didn't see the text saying "Watch video of the incident here and here."? :P |
| 22:15.20 | beandog | she got expelled, too? |
| 22:15.21 | beandog | sheesh |
| 22:15.44 | beandog | "It all started with a piece of birthday cake, but it ended up with a high school girl being beaten and expelled." |
| 22:15.47 | beandog | best tagline evah. |
| 22:16.59 | tensai | levi: great answer :D |
| 22:18.18 | beandog | arrested for littering, sheesh |
| 22:18.25 | beandog | well, theyre gonna get a lotta cash from the court settlement. |
| 22:19.56 | levi | tensai: I hate those kind of puzzles, especially as interview questions. |
| 22:21.26 | tensai | A: use calculator to figure out how much time you would lose implementing such a "clever" solution. using said time, go to the store and buy a rack of lamb. |
| 22:22.52 | elg | atoponce: if I run tor on my laptop as a server, which I am frequently putting to sleep, changing location, etc., would that be helpful or rude to the tor network? |
| 22:23.45 | atoponce | it would be helpful. to the network, when you're up, you're just more bandwidth, so i can't see how it would be detrimental |
| 22:25.41 | elg | just concerned about how quickly my disappearance is noted. what about NAT? if I'm occasionally behind a nat will it handle that gracefully (either working fine or at least ignoring me)? |
| 22:27.26 | atoponce | the port would need to be opened in the nat, of course |
| 22:27.41 | atoponce | but your appearance/disappearance won't be a problem i think |
| 22:28.36 | elg | well I'm thinking about the occasional café or something |
| 22:29.54 | atoponce | caf? |
| 22:30.39 | elg | cafe |
| 22:30.44 | elg | for the utf-challenged |
| 22:31.04 | atoponce | but your disappearance is immediate. every 90s (i need to double-check that), the servers rotate paths, so you'd be noticed fairly quickly |
| 22:31.08 | atoponce | might be 30sec |
| 22:31.37 | atoponce | if the port isn't opened in the firewall, you won't be able to get it in the network... |
| 22:34.36 | mrpull | i remember some discussion a long time back on whether it was ethical to participate in tor networks... what if (even if it is encypted and anonymous) your node is used to route illicit material? |
| 22:35.32 | atoponce | i run a tor server, and knowing what it could be used for is cause of concern for my wife |
| 22:35.41 | Tene | If that's a problem for you, don't participate in tor. |
| 22:36.00 | atoponce | however, there are those in china and others who can't get the information they are entitled to without it |
| 22:36.03 | atoponce | so... |
| 22:36.11 | atoponce | s/others/elsewhere/ |
| 22:36.46 | mrpull | actually, the discussion may have centered around freenet rather than tor |
| 22:36.55 | mrpull | but i've had similar concerns about tor |
| 22:37.01 | atoponce | i hove to keep reminding her (and myself) that it's being used for the Greater Good |
| 22:37.33 | mrpull | atoponce: what is your take on freenet? |
| 22:37.42 | levi | Is it really being used for that? |
| 22:41.08 | atoponce | mrpull: i haven't looked at freenet in detail, but it's my impression that tor is stronger at it's anonymity |
| 22:42.14 | mrpull | freenet concerns me more than tor because you actually host some of the contents rather than just routing them as with tor |
| 22:42.42 | mrpull | to know that a slice of the web's worst could be hosted from my machine (using freenet) doesn't sit well with me |
| 22:44.21 | tristanbob | how do I make vino listen to localhost only? |
| 22:45.53 | atoponce | levi: the most recent case was tor exit nodes being seized in germany, as they are the visible servers to the world, for child porn |
| 22:46.09 | atoponce | they actually held a decent backbone to the network, and it suffered a bit when they went down |
| 22:47.01 | atoponce | but of course, they found no child porn on the servers. i don't know if they made it back to the network or not |
| 22:47.24 | atoponce | xmission, iirc, hosts a tor server or two |
| 22:48.16 | atoponce | but all the data being routed through my server (i chose a middle node) is encrypted, so i could never find out one way or the other |
| 22:49.45 | levi | Well, considering the ratio of porn to other stuff on the net, I think it's pretty likely that there's a lot of porn on tor. |
| 22:50.00 | levi | And idiots who want to use anonymity to do stupid things. |
| 22:50.05 | elg | it is pretty slow though (based on my observation in the past 5 minutes) |
| 22:50.07 | levi | Like flood IRC channels. |
| 22:50.24 | atoponce | elg: yes. it's very slow and very flaky |
| 22:50.28 | elg | and downloading big images over tor seems like it would drive you crazy |
| 22:50.36 | atoponce | it's fast dialup atm |
| 22:50.55 | atoponce | well, probably more accurately regular dialup. :) |
| 22:51.19 | atoponce | it's a great solution for getting around web filters though, if you can't ssh tunnel |
| 22:51.48 | atoponce | levi: i think what's making it the worst speed-wise, isn't porn, but illegal torrents |
| 22:52.04 | levi | Illegal porn torrents! |
| 22:52.07 | atoponce | join #tor for a day, and you'll see more questions about getting bittorrent to work on tor than porn |
| 22:52.19 | elg | hehe |
| 22:52.30 | atoponce | it's annoying |
| 22:52.42 | levi | Yeah, well, that's humanity for you. |
| 22:52.55 | atoponce | no arguments there |
| 22:53.12 | RyanE | with how sue-happy the RIAA and MPAA are, if I was downloading torrents of copyrighted info, I'd want to use tor as well. |
| 22:53.36 | atoponce | sure. it just pisses us honest people off is all |
| 22:53.50 | RyanE | yep |
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| 22:54.01 | atoponce | then you get berated in IRC |
| 22:54.10 | atoponce | :) |
| 22:54.18 | elg | ~berate emcnabb |
| 22:54.24 | levi | Yeah, like that's every stopped anyone. |
| 22:54.28 | levi | s/every/ever/ |
| 22:54.40 | atoponce | makes me feel better though |
| 22:54.48 | levi | IRC beratement is like encouragement from your peers. |
| 22:56.17 | atoponce | here's my thing. you want to download th elatest of the sopranos? go wardriving, find an open ap, and go to town |
| 22:56.41 | atoponce | then you can have your torrent and ping hou can have his wikipedia |
| 23:03.01 | levi | Cool, a paper on delimited continuations in operating systems. |
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