| 01:03.50 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@001-756-568.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 01:03.55 | Sargun | t |
| 01:11.14 | Lakshmi | hey |
| 01:12.15 | Det3 | Wow. People on in the evening. |
| 01:14.26 | Sargun | cows. |
| 01:16.33 | Det3 | cows, eh? |
| 01:16.41 | Det3 | cows go mow. |
| 01:16.45 | Det3 | koos go mooo. |
| 01:19.47 | *** join/#utah xbmodder_ (n=Sargun@h4606e361.area1.spcsdns.net) |
| 01:20.02 | nick125 | I've always wondered, let's say a cop comes up to you with the suspicion of having..let's say drugs on you, and they want to search you. If you say "I ain't got no drugs on me", can the police use that as a confession? |
| 01:20.16 | Det3 | No, he hasn't mirandized you et. |
| 01:20.17 | Det3 | er, yet. |
| 01:20.35 | Det3 | In fact, he can't even search you unless you consent to it, or he gets a warrant. |
| 01:21.02 | nick125 | Well, I'm using that as an example. Can the police take double negatives as a confession? |
| 01:21.23 | xbmodder_ | nick125, I think Det3 qualifies as one of those people :-P |
| 01:21.28 | xbmodder_ | mirandized! |
| 01:22.18 | Det3 | The double negative... I'd say that the police *could* use it if they were grasping, but any defense attorney worth their salt would easly get it thrown out. |
| 01:22.51 | Det3 | I'd like to think that a competent judge would see that as splitting hairs a wee bit thinly. |
| 01:26.17 | xbmodder_ | the beauty of UDP |
| 02:10.17 | *** join/#utah Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 02:10.26 | nick125 | Sargun: hey |
| 02:32.09 | levi | Det3: I'm working with audio equipment at work now. |
| 02:32.47 | levi | Well, not this moment, but in my current job. |
| 02:34.40 | Det3 | levi: Cool. What kind of equipment? |
| 02:35.29 | Sargun | Cool. |
| 02:35.33 | Sargun | How much does it cost. |
| 02:35.47 | Det3 | Sargun: What, the audio interface? |
| 02:37.15 | vontrapp | atoponce: galculator isn't rpn! you got me excited for nothing |
| 02:37.25 | Sargun | yeah |
| 02:37.37 | vontrapp | galculator is the same piece of crap that every other stupid gui calculator app is |
| 02:37.44 | Det3 | Sargun: Does it matter? |
| 02:38.29 | Det3 | Sargun: If it does, I have 48 I/O on this interface, and it cost me $25/channel. |
| 02:38.54 | Sargun | that's not bad |
| 02:38.58 | Det3 | To me, it doesn't. Sound quality is what's important. |
| 02:38.58 | Sargun | RCA interfaces? |
| 02:39.01 | Sargun | or optical? |
| 02:39.03 | Det3 | Nope, 1/4" TRS. |
| 02:39.06 | Sargun | :-( |
| 02:39.14 | Sargun | Optical FTW. |
| 02:39.27 | Det3 | Hah. Then retrofit all the synthesizers and recording gear on the planet with TOSLINK. :-) |
| 02:40.11 | levi | Det3: I work for Harman Pro Group, working on some audio network stuff. |
| 02:40.20 | Det3 | ROFL. |
| 02:40.35 | Det3 | "DOD Electronics Corporation" |
| 02:40.43 | levi | Heh, cool. :) |
| 02:40.45 | Det3 | Friends don't let friends let harman buy their companies. |
| 02:40.51 | Sargun | "Audio network" |
| 02:40.59 | Det3 | I assume it's something to do with DriveRack? |
| 02:41.11 | Det3 | Or is this totally new, hush-hush stuff? |
| 02:41.19 | levi | Totally new stuff. |
| 02:41.25 | Det3 | Sweet. |
| 02:41.37 | Det3 | I applied to work there when I was looking to move back here. |
| 02:41.41 | Det3 | Didn't even get a response. |
| 02:41.47 | Det3 | I burned my bridges there THAT badly. |
| 02:41.54 | levi | Heh. |
| 02:41.58 | Det3 | Even though I've worked on some of the top equipment in the market. |
| 02:42.37 | Sargun | networking audio stuffs |
| 02:42.37 | Det3 | I won't apply there again. Heh. :-) |
| 02:42.49 | Det3 | Sargun: It's actually quite a tough nut to crack, because of latency. |
| 02:43.25 | Det3 | Well, assuming a) you're not compressing data, and b) the compression is lossless. |
| 02:43.46 | Det3 | levi: If you ever need a consultant. :-) http://www.det3.net/ |
| 02:44.00 | levi | Do you mean 'or'? Because if you're not compressing, it's definitely lossless. ;) |
| 02:44.40 | Sargun | FibreChannel gives you like .25 ms of |
| 02:45.12 | Det3 | Sargun: yes, but what does FC-AL cost? You need a transciever, a MAC, and that's just for the bottom three layers. |
| 02:45.22 | Sargun | yeah |
| 02:45.31 | Det3 | That's close to $100-$200 there in raw parts cost. |
| 02:45.50 | Det3 | Not to include the cost of the fiber, which unless I'm mistaken, is still single mode. |
| 02:45.57 | Det3 | And I'm being generous. |
| 02:46.02 | Sargun | yeah |
| 02:46.16 | Det3 | levi: How much does a basic driverack system cost? |
| 02:46.18 | levi | Compare with cat5, the cheapest cable in the universe. :) |
| 02:46.23 | Sargun | it's about $1400 for our end to end redudant fibre connectors |
| 02:46.30 | Det3 | Yep. |
| 02:46.48 | Det3 | levi: Exactly. And if you can develop a protocol that sits on top of Ethernet and closes the timing loop... |
| 02:47.12 | levi | Det3: I really don't know how much. I only started recently, and I'm somewhat insulated from individual products except for the one I'm using as a dev platform. |
| 02:47.27 | Sargun | Well, year a non-IP platform? |
| 02:47.28 | levi | Det3: That sounds like an excellent idea. ;) |
| 02:47.38 | Det3 | levi: Yes, it is because I've done it already. |
| 02:49.07 | Det3 | levi: But still wasn't a magic bullet. It was still supposed to be on a semi-proprietary set of network hardware. The killer is if you want to just make it work for $GENERIC_NETWORK, where you don't have control of what's in between point A and B. It could be a switch, a hub, and it depends too - layer 2, layer 3? All that changes stuff. What if it has QoS? And what O/S are you using? That makes a difference too... |
| 02:49.24 | Sargun | Linux |
| 02:49.26 | Sargun | Or BSD |
| 02:49.45 | Det3 | Sargun: Yes, but how many generic musicians use Linux or BSD? And don't bring up Mach and OS/X. :-) |
| 02:49.57 | levi | Det3: Yeah, you really need an end-to-end, standardized solution. |
| 02:51.08 | Det3 | levi: Exactly. And that's damned near impossible unless you either constrain the network by using an approved list of components and connections, or if you write your own protocol at the Ethernet level while installing some kind of kernel-mode driver on the OSes. |
| 02:51.16 | Det3 | That's why I stick with Firewire most of the time. 61883-6 FTW. |
| 02:52.47 | Det3 | But, I don't work in audio anymore. Not unless I'm consulting. |
| 02:53.13 | Det3 | levi: Are you going to Winter NAMM? |
| 02:53.16 | herlo | frack! |
| 02:54.00 | levi | Probably not. |
| 02:54.16 | Det3 | Too bad - I'd say let's get together and have a drink. |
| 02:54.25 | Det3 | Oh hey, is it true that Jason Lamb is back at Harman now? |
| 02:54.45 | levi | Apparently, yes. |
| 02:54.58 | levi | I got a Linked In invite from him. |
| 02:55.08 | Det3 | Shit. No wonder Fender was calling me. |
| 02:55.17 | levi | Though I'm not entirely sure who he is. :) |
| 02:55.35 | Det3 | He designed the DOD Grunge distortion, among other things. |
| 02:56.00 | Det3 | Was the grand high poobah of stomp boxes for a while. |
| 02:58.45 | levi | Heh, cool. |
| 02:59.03 | Det3 | I remember giving him and Rob Swenson an idea for a vocal box. Heheheh. |
| 02:59.28 | Det3 | Would have Digitech packaging, IVL pitch shifting, dbx compression, and Lexicon reverb. |
| 02:59.34 | Det3 | But it was too much "brand dilution" |
| 02:59.40 | Det3 | That was um... '98? |
| 02:59.42 | Det3 | yeah. |
| 03:00.14 | levi | Apparently he's the DigiTech Market Manager now. |
| 03:00.34 | Det3 | *nod* I wouldn't see him back at Harman for anything but, considering DOD is a huge shell of its former self. |
| 03:00.59 | Det3 | I laugh about it with Kathy DiFrancesco on the rare occasion we hang out. |
| 03:06.25 | atoponce | vontrapp: galculator *does* have rpn |
| 03:07.33 | fozzmoo | ~cheer rpm |
| 03:07.34 | ibot | Three cheers for rpm! Hip hip Hurray! Hip hip Hurray! Hip hip Hurray! |
| 03:07.37 | fozzmoo | ~cheer rpn |
| 03:07.38 | ibot | Three cheers for rpn! Hip hip Hurray! Hip hip Hurray! Hip hip Hurray! |
| 03:07.44 | fozzmoo | heh heh. |
| 03:08.02 | fozzmoo | Det3: You work at Harman? |
| 03:08.15 | Det3 | fozz: I used to, back when I was young and thought I knew everything. ;-) |
| 03:08.19 | fozzmoo | Me too. |
| 03:08.22 | fozzmoo | I worked there in 93-94 |
| 03:08.52 | fozzmoo | I converted the building's networking infrastructure from coax ethernet (repeated to hell) to twisted pair. |
| 03:09.02 | fozzmoo | No, wait. 94-95 |
| 03:09.05 | fozzmoo | That's right. |
| 03:09.12 | Det3 | Hehehe. |
| 03:09.25 | fozzmoo | Where did you work? |
| 03:09.31 | Det3 | You might have seen me then. Over 6', tech on the assembly floor. |
| 03:09.33 | Det3 | Long-ass hair. |
| 03:09.36 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. |
| 03:09.37 | Det3 | Not that it's unique at Harman. |
| 03:09.40 | fozzmoo | Wait. Half th floor looked that way |
| 03:09.42 | Det3 | Answered to the name "Joe" |
| 03:09.48 | Det3 | I know, I'm so unique... |
| 03:10.12 | fozzmoo | Probably so. |
| 03:10.19 | fozzmoo | I spent a lot of time crossing the floor. :) |
| 03:10.27 | fozzmoo | making bar code printers work, tc. |
| 03:10.29 | fozzmoo | etc. |
| 03:10.45 | fozzmoo | I don't really remember anyone from there... except Marci in HR. ;-) |
| 03:11.14 | Det3 | yeah, I started in late '93 after I was out of high school as an assembler. Moved up to tech about 3 months into it. Got laid off in '95 (I pissed off Georgia) only to return as a PCB designer in '97. |
| 03:11.26 | fozzmoo | Georgia in HR? |
| 03:11.37 | Det3 | No, Georgia was the evening manufacturing shift supervisor. |
| 03:11.40 | fozzmoo | Oh okay, |
| 03:11.54 | Det3 | yeah. |
| 03:12.03 | fozzmoo | Sheesh. I remember there was a big guy in a band called Anger Overload who worked on the floor. |
| 03:12.09 | Det3 | Got laid off again in '98 - even though it was a thinly veiled firing. |
| 03:12.14 | Det3 | Oh yeah, Mike was his name? |
| 03:12.23 | fozzmoo | I saw them in Brigham City before I worked there. |
| 03:12.26 | fozzmoo | I don't remember his name. |
| 03:12.28 | fozzmoo | Real nice guy. |
| 03:12.32 | fozzmoo | But he was ANGRY on stage. :) |
| 03:12.51 | Det3 | Oh yeah. One of my old friends put the screaming bomb on his air tanks for paintball. |
| 03:14.00 | fozzmoo | cool. |
| 03:14.31 | Det3 | *nod* |
| 03:14.37 | Det3 | Man, I was so stupid back then. |
| 03:25.09 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@michmax.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 03:27.45 | vontrapp | atoponce: i'll take another look |
| 03:29.22 | levi | vontrapp: Did you get your semaphores working? |
| 03:29.28 | fozzmoo | Det3: We all were! |
| 03:29.34 | fozzmoo | ti`ocpi: HI! |
| 03:29.41 | vontrapp | levi: yeah |
| 03:29.43 | vontrapp | funny story |
| 03:29.49 | vontrapp | so this morning i took a fresh look at it |
| 03:29.54 | Det3 | fozzmoo: Yeah, but would Harman hire you back if you wanted to go back there? :-) |
| 03:29.57 | ti`ocpi | heya fozz! |
| 03:30.01 | fozzmoo | Det3: Maybe. |
| 03:30.03 | fozzmoo | I dunno. |
| 03:30.11 | Det3 | yeah. |
| 03:30.16 | fozzmoo | Dunno if they could afford me now. :) |
| 03:30.25 | vontrapp | where it declares vals with the nice informative comment, twas a comma instead of a semicolon |
| 03:30.26 | Det3 | For me, it's a "Well, we'd rather spend all of our money designing a new hardware synthesizer." |
| 03:30.37 | Det3 | I think they'd rather go bankrupt.;-) |
| 03:30.56 | fozzmoo | Cool thing is, I was on the Harman companies committee to decide what the companies were going to do about this new world wide web thing in 1995. |
| 03:31.06 | Det3 | hah. |
| 03:31.08 | fozzmoo | I flew back to Northridge and met with people from JBL, Harman, and others. |
| 03:31.23 | fozzmoo | It was fun. That was right after the Northridge earthquake. |
| 03:31.26 | Det3 | I can't remember who the comms dude was though... I think he came in after you, was long tall and gothy. |
| 03:31.31 | Det3 | Oh yeah, yum. |
| 03:31.37 | levi | vontrapp: Whoops. Sorry I didn't catch that for you. |
| 03:32.00 | vontrapp | heh, no problem, that's what happens > midnight |
| 03:32.28 | vontrapp | still not sure why that made it hold the value for the scope of the function but not after |
| 03:32.58 | Det3 | Damn... I've got 24U of rackspace, 6 keyboards, a mackie control, Det3::Rotokontroll and a PC-1600 to arrange in a semi-usable fashion for composition and mixdown. PFEH! |
| 03:33.19 | vontrapp | ~pfeh |
| 03:33.28 | vontrapp | ~wtf pfeh |
| 03:33.46 | Det3 | ~wtf harman |
| 03:33.50 | Det3 | Hahahah. |
| 03:33.59 | vontrapp | ~wtf wtf |
| 03:34.06 | vontrapp | ~language ibot |
| 03:34.07 | ibot | ACTION grabs ibot by the ear and washes ibot's mouth out with soap |
| 03:34.10 | Det3 | ~wtf recursion |
| 03:34.17 | vontrapp | ~recursion |
| 03:34.18 | ibot | To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. |
| 03:34.19 | Det3 | ~help |
| 03:34.36 | vontrapp | Det3: wtf is for acronyms, other things, you just ~thing |
| 03:34.56 | Det3 | vontrapp: Cool. I haven't messed with irc bots since I worked at Harman. |
| 03:35.05 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 03:35.10 | levi | vontrapp: It did that because the comma told it sems was another local int you were declaring. |
| 03:35.49 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 03:36.12 | vontrapp | aah |
| 03:36.14 | vontrapp | of course |
| 03:38.06 | vontrapp | i still don't have it so the socket is cleaned up nicely that it can bind again |
| 03:38.32 | Sargun | ? |
| 03:39.05 | Det3 | Okay, I took that the WRONG way. |
| 03:39.47 | Sargun | Det3, I'm not sure what you mean, I think you must have a very WRONG idea. |
| 03:40.12 | Det3 | Sargun: Of course. An idea that's banned in Happy Valley, Salt Lake, and most of the lower 48. |
| 03:40.57 | Sargun | yheh |
| 03:40.58 | Sargun | heh |
| 03:41.05 | Sargun | Not in Uteah |
| 03:41.11 | Sargun | In good 'ol California. |
| 03:41.16 | Det3 | Exactly. |
| 03:41.23 | Sargun | Near San Francisco. |
| 03:41.24 | Det3 | Where they re-bind sockets all day long. |
| 03:41.29 | Sargun | oh... |
| 03:41.30 | Sargun | heh |
| 03:41.32 | Det3 | No cleanup necessary. |
| 03:41.39 | Sargun | Yes, your very disturbed. |
| 03:41.41 | vontrapp | um, do #define "strings" not end with \0? |
| 03:41.41 | vontrapp | i do write(fd, STRING, 80) and i get STRINGSTRING2STRING3 |
| 03:41.59 | vontrapp | or does write not stop at \0? |
| 03:42.02 | Det3 | Sargun: Thank you! |
| 03:42.06 | levi | write is not a string operation. |
| 03:42.18 | levi | It's a byte operation. |
| 03:42.45 | vontrapp | mmk |
| 03:43.16 | vontrapp | but fprintf isn't working for some reason |
| 03:43.32 | levi | You either want to write with strlen(STRING) as the length, or use a FILE and fputs. |
| 03:46.02 | vontrapp | i try a FILE* with fprintf |
| 03:46.04 | vontrapp | no dice |
| 03:48.31 | vontrapp | if i have an int fd, and a FILE* fp from fdopen(fd), do i have to close fp? |
| 03:48.31 | vontrapp | or is closing fd sufficient? |
| 03:55.10 | levi | I think fdopen allocates buffers and stuff that it would be wise to free. |
| 03:55.27 | levi | You're using C++, though... doesn't iostream know how to handle fds? |
| 03:57.12 | vontrapp | yeah, but i like printf |
| 03:58.19 | levi | C'mon, if you're going to write C++, write C++. ;) |
| 04:15.15 | levi | Man, are these guys really that afraid of the word 'impossible'? |
| 04:15.35 | levi | I think they may have been exposed to too many motivational posters. |
| 04:16.26 | vontrapp | quick, send some demotivational posters to the list! |
| 04:17.32 | vontrapp | levi: so what's the c++ way to read from a file? |
| 04:19.21 | vontrapp | i figured out why fprintf wasn't working |
| 04:19.27 | levi | Ummm... *looks around for a C++ expert* |
| 04:19.29 | vontrapp | i was opening it "rw" instead of "r+" |
| 04:19.37 | levi | Whoops. :) |
| 04:21.12 | vontrapp | fgets seems to be crashing though |
| 04:21.26 | Det3 | Heh. Sounds like my last foray into Cairo. |
| 04:25.53 | levi | "I use tabs not spaces for indenting. I do this because pressing space multiple times takes more effort than hitting the tab key one time." |
| 04:26.21 | levi | Hi, I'd like to introduce you to vim and emacs. |
| 04:27.23 | levi | Ack, and he's using Hungarian notation with CamelCase. |
| 04:27.51 | Det3 | wtfVoidPointer? |
| 04:27.55 | Det3 | evil! |
| 04:33.24 | vontrapp | who is this? |
| 04:35.41 | levi | vontrapp: Someone who is also unwilling to call perpetual motion machines impossible. |
| 04:39.05 | levi | From this page: http://dreamrpgonline.com/node/22 |
| 04:43.37 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=me@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 04:48.05 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 04:58.47 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (n=me@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 05:23.08 | levi | I can't believe that my statement that perpetual motion machines are impossible is so controversial on PLUG. |
| 05:31.32 | sontek | levi: I thought it was a pretty useless remark =) |
| 05:32.39 | sontek | sucks that my topic went so far off topic though |
| 05:32.55 | sontek | it had good information for awhile |
| 05:35.08 | atoponce | levi: they're not impossible. that one guy just recently "proved" it |
| 05:35.16 | atoponce | i use that term loosely, btw |
| 05:35.46 | levi | atoponce: What guy are you referring to? |
| 05:36.52 | atoponce | http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/132461497/exploded_view_of_ste.html |
| 05:37.59 | levi | atoponce: Oh, that... yet another in a long line of 'perpetual motion machines' that aren't. |
| 05:38.16 | Supaplex | it runs on hype! |
| 05:38.23 | atoponce | c'mon. magnets hold their magnetism forever. duh |
| 05:40.30 | levi | Thermodynamics always gets you in the end. |
| 05:43.58 | *** join/#utah carrus85 (n=carrus85@216.83.145.38) |
| 05:47.42 | atoponce | isn't debian packaging seamonkey anymore? |
| 05:48.49 | *** join/#utah kreg (n=kreg@208.98.188.95) |
| 05:48.52 | vontrapp | atoponce: i wouldn't know, i had to remove debian stable from my sources |
| 05:49.08 | vontrapp | but i don't recall ever seeing it in debian |
| 05:49.34 | atoponce | they had it before |
| 05:49.49 | atoponce | i suspect they've ditched it, as building mozilla is a pita |
| 05:50.06 | vontrapp | ~hug darcs |
| 05:50.07 | ibot | ACTION sneaks up on darcs and suddenly hugs darcs tightly |
| 05:50.15 | vontrapp | it tells me when i have trailing whitespace |
| 05:51.00 | levi | Yay, darcs. :) |
| 05:51.35 | vontrapp | automatic backups :) |
| 05:52.09 | vontrapp | although i've never once lost any data that wasn't on a floppy |
| 05:52.25 | vontrapp | i've had an hd go bad, but was able to recover everything, thankfully |
| 05:56.33 | levi | So, does anyone have an opinion on what sort of infrastructure PLIG should be built? |
| 05:57.16 | levi | I could install pretty much whatever on my home server, but having it sitting on my DSL line is probably not a great long-term solution. |
| 05:57.43 | levi | Something like Google Groups or Google Code would be sub-optimal, but a free way to get an email list at least. |
| 05:58.06 | Sargun | seamonkey is? |
| 05:59.02 | Sargun | Mac people suck |
| 05:59.04 | Sargun | ah, seamonkey is Mozilla |
| 05:59.18 | levi | Sargun sucks |
| 05:59.43 | vontrapp | bind: Address already in use sucks |
| 06:00.33 | vontrapp | levi: if google code did darcs, but no, it doesn't :( |
| 06:01.33 | levi | I think darcs would probably not be a terribly good fit in this case, anyway. |
| 06:03.16 | vontrapp | but i still want google code to do darcs |
| 06:03.36 | Sargun | heh. |
| 06:04.47 | levi | Yeah, that would be nice. |
| 06:04.58 | levi | Do they offer anything besides svn? |
| 06:05.21 | vontrapp | don't think so |
| 06:10.09 | *** join/#utah kreg (n=kreg@208.98.188.95) |
| 06:15.32 | vontrapp | k, who's awake? |
| 06:15.51 | vontrapp | you get to see just how atrocious my network connection is |
| 06:16.01 | vontrapp | telnet fugal.net 1983 |
| 06:16.07 | vontrapp | vote for your favorite distro |
| 06:16.59 | vontrapp | or type results to see the current results |
| 06:18.09 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:18.16 | Sargun | your hans? |
| 06:18.23 | Sargun | I get nothing |
| 06:18.24 | vontrapp | von |
| 06:18.29 | vontrapp | it takes a long time |
| 06:18.37 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:18.37 | Sargun | wow |
| 06:18.40 | Sargun | that is a long time |
| 06:18.43 | vontrapp | because it's tunneled to my laptop |
| 06:18.46 | Sargun | von fugal. |
| 06:18.50 | vontrapp | which is behind the worst isp ever |
| 06:18.58 | vontrapp | gentoo, and a cheater |
| 06:19.01 | Sargun | mind if I script my voting? |
| 06:19.02 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:19.07 | Sargun | I was seeing |
| 06:19.20 | Sargun | if it had some sorta repetition detection algorithm |
| 06:19.27 | vontrapp | nope |
| 06:19.30 | vontrapp | just simple |
| 06:22.41 | Sargun | you should write on |
| 06:22.41 | Sargun | one |
| 06:23.01 | Sargun | what language? |
| 06:23.24 | vontrapp | well, the lab spec says to write a client that will cast tons of votes, so that would be counter productive |
| 06:23.31 | vontrapp | c++ |
| 06:23.53 | vontrapp | just got a whole bunch of accepts |
| 06:23.55 | vontrapp | but no votes |
| 06:24.44 | Sargun | heh |
| 06:27.50 | Sargun | vontrapp, I found a bug! |
| 06:28.00 | vontrapp | what's that? |
| 06:28.03 | Sargun | 1800 1s |
| 06:28.13 | Sargun | don't produce a bad vote! |
| 06:28.43 | vontrapp | as in 111111111111111..... to 1800 of them? |
| 06:29.04 | Sargun | yeah |
| 06:29.13 | vontrapp | well it didn't produce a good vote |
| 06:29.24 | vontrapp | did the connection close? |
| 06:29.29 | vontrapp | it's probably still transferring |
| 06:29.50 | Sargun | 1800 7s cause it to hang |
| 06:30.02 | Sargun | what kinda connection do you have |
| 06:30.08 | Sargun | and then exit by closing the socket |
| 06:30.13 | Sargun | what's your buffer size |
| 06:30.18 | vontrapp | 80 |
| 06:30.22 | Sargun | or are you using a dynamically expanding buffer? |
| 06:30.27 | vontrapp | yeah, when it overruns the buffer, it just ignores you |
| 06:30.28 | Sargun | or seeing if buffer exceeds 80 |
| 06:30.29 | Sargun | die. |
| 06:30.30 | Sargun | oh |
| 06:30.34 | Sargun | that's mean |
| 06:30.41 | Sargun | maybe make it kick the connection |
| 06:30.48 | Sargun | after 79 bytes? |
| 06:31.26 | Sargun | how are you handling the multiple connections |
| 06:31.36 | Sargun | non-blocking IO? |
| 06:31.55 | vontrapp | actually, it should just go one with the 79 bytes like that's what you sent in the first place |
| 06:32.01 | vontrapp | threads |
| 06:32.19 | vontrapp | pthreads, to be precise |
| 06:32.36 | levi | vontrapp: Is this for some sort of assignment? |
| 06:33.38 | vontrapp | yeah |
| 06:34.27 | Sargun | hm |
| 06:34.32 | Sargun | threads are bad |
| 06:35.40 | levi | Looks like RForum has mailing list integration. |
| 06:35.54 | vontrapp | threads are fun |
| 06:39.50 | Sargun | uh |
| 06:39.52 | Sargun | fork bomb |
| 06:39.53 | Sargun | wait |
| 06:39.55 | Sargun | its not fork |
| 06:39.57 | Sargun | its thread |
| 06:39.59 | Sargun | hm... |
| 06:40.06 | Sargun | why are you using a tunnel? |
| 06:42.24 | vontrapp | don't bomb yourself |
| 06:42.24 | vontrapp | even if my little prog did allow you to dos it, my lame isp would effectively take the brunt of it |
| 06:42.24 | vontrapp | because i don't have a public ip |
| 06:48.12 | Sargun | lol |
| 06:48.21 | Sargun | your ISP doesn't give you a public IP? |
| 06:48.32 | vontrapp | hah, yeah right |
| 06:48.50 | vontrapp | not in byu student areas |
| 06:51.03 | vontrapp | Sargun: run your script again |
| 08:35.51 | Sargun | uh |
| 08:35.54 | Sargun | vontrapp, can I |
| 09:13.57 | *** join/#utah goozbach (n=goozbach@brooks.netradius.com) |
| 09:16.13 | Sargun | ... |
| 09:16.56 | Lakshmi | sargun |
| 09:19.54 | Sargun | OH NO! |
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| 12:16.07 | *** join/#utah thrain][ (n=dpn@72.8.105.196) |
| 13:34.58 | Supaplex | m'orning |
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| 13:59.10 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-68-22-220-206.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) |
| 14:08.11 | goozbach | mysql gurus: how do I get the entire query that is shown in "show processlist"? |
| 14:09.02 | Supaplex | for catching slow queries? (there's a better way), if not, maybe you can enumerate them per process/connection. |
| 14:09.59 | Newsome | hey. You got a problem with O'Hare? :) |
| 14:10.20 | goozbach | Supaplex: I just want to get the entire query, I don't know if it's slow |
| 14:10.22 | tensai | Newsome: I don't but now you do :P |
| 14:11.15 | Newsome | Hmm. I just found an interesting bug in GoDaddy's ordering system. |
| 14:11.18 | Supaplex | well let's see. I suspect there's a way to enumerate it per process. |
| 14:12.36 | Newsome | allows for $9 domain extensions of unlimited length (for example, 5 years for $9 total) |
| 14:12.47 | Supaplex | heh cool :p |
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| 14:15.30 | *** join/#utah atoponce (n=aaron@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.bronze.atoponce) |
| 14:15.50 | Supaplex | how'd you hear it if it's not there? |
| 14:16.12 | atoponce | ~onjoin -atoponce |
| 14:16.12 | ibot | ok, atoponce |
| 14:17.33 | elg | levi: your surgeon analogy is so much better than mine. |
| 14:17.33 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@64-205-130-223.client.dsl.net) |
| 14:18.03 | vontrapp | elg: what was yours? |
| 14:18.26 | elg | something lame about doctors and nurses |
| 14:20.51 | sjansen | Doctors Who isn't lame. |
| 14:21.12 | sjansen | Well... usually isn't. |
| 14:21.49 | sjansen | But everyone has their off Doctors. It's just part of being a Time Lord. |
| 14:22.41 | sjansen | Like the episode where the Doctor turned into a small, furry, squeaking rodent and spent half the episode squeaking Shakespeare. |
| 14:23.14 | sjansen | It was like 2001 all over, but with less humming obelisk and more furry squeaking. |
| 14:23.27 | Newsome | I think that was Star Trek: The Trouble with Tribbles |
| 14:25.36 | sjansen | Newsome: No, I think you're confused. I'm talking about the strange Doctor Who/Simpsons cross channel multi-episode collaboration. You know, the one were Homer drops a donut in the Tardis and the Doctor has to back into pre-Cambrian England to prevent future archaeologists from accidentally starting WWIIII after discovering a Dalek with a saxophone? |
| 14:25.54 | *** join/#utah atoponce (n=aaron@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.bronze.atoponce) |
| 14:26.51 | atoponce | ibot: boo! |
| 14:26.52 | ibot | for heaven's sake, atoponce, don't do that! |
| 14:26.52 | Newsome | Okay, but where do Freud, Abraham Lincoln, Genghis Khan, and Socrates come in? |
| 14:29.17 | tensai | San Dimas High School football rules! |
| 14:35.20 | sjansen | tensai++ |
| 14:38.03 | elg | you've flipped |
| 14:40.44 | sjansen | ~quote SCOX |
| 14:41.53 | Supaplex | an intel stock quote would have been funny with the FDIV bug in the mix. |
| 14:42.07 | Supaplex | Change -2.45555555666677778888 |
| 14:42.09 | Supaplex | :P |
| 14:42.22 | Supaplex | back in the day |
| 14:42.32 | redbeard2 | tensai: i had a student once in a class in austin tell me that we needed a command in linux for "dude". it didn't matter what it did, so long as something happened when you typed in "dude". |
| 14:42.55 | redbeard2 | so i had him type in: alias dude='echo Be most excellent to each other' |
| 14:43.13 | Newsome | Excellent! |
| 14:43.26 | redbeard2 | now i use that in all my beginner classes... including the lecture that i just ended |
| 14:44.06 | redbeard2 | one of my students commended me for my frequent use of obscure movie references |
| 14:44.06 | Newsome | sounds like a good example usage of alias |
| 14:44.10 | sjansen | dude! |
| 14:44.38 | redbeard2 | i also showed them what to do to their coworkers' machines if they ever need to exact revenge |
| 14:44.39 | goozbach | redbeard2: I used to give out prizes to the students who named the movie references |
| 14:44.55 | redbeard2 | alias vi='emacs' |
| 14:45.04 | redbeard2 | alias vim='emacs' |
| 14:45.09 | *** topic/#utah by sjansen -> The channel for content free discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | PLIG RFC: http://plig.jottit.com/ | Be excellent to each other. |
| 14:45.14 | goozbach | alias vi='rm -rf /; sync; sync; reboot -f -n;' |
| 14:45.31 | redbeard2 | goozbach: dude, i'm not _that_ evil |
| 14:45.45 | Supaplex | $ dude where\'s my car? |
| 14:45.46 | Supaplex | Be most excellent to each other where's my car? |
| 14:45.48 | vontrapp | that's not being excellent to eachother |
| 14:45.56 | sjansen | I can see goozbach's "prizes": |
| 14:46.17 | redbeard2 | besides, wouldn't it be faster to do: alias vi='cat /var/log/messages > /dev/hda; sync; reboot -fn' |
| 14:46.59 | Supaplex | huzzah for netboot. let's see, that would wipe out the /tmp partition on my other box. |
| 14:47.00 | sjansen | "Badgers? Badgers? We don't need no stinking badgers!" The first student to tell me the reference won't have their root password changed to something impossible to type. |
| 14:47.33 | redbeard2 | yesterday was zombie day. my students who had seen shaun of the dead learned that they already knew the one and only way to kill zombie processes. |
| 14:47.37 | sjansen | Supaplex: Actually, you forgot to redefine dude. |
| 14:47.51 | redbeard2 | "...by removing the head or destroying the brain." |
| 14:48.05 | sjansen | wait, sorry, forgot it was an alias, not a function |
| 14:48.24 | Supaplex | sjansen: I aliased it just as goozbach mentioned (ommited for brevity) |
| 14:48.57 | Supaplex | anyways, time to run an errand or two. |
| 14:49.45 | tensai | ~dude |
| 14:49.46 | ibot | Be most excellent to each other! |
| 14:53.31 | tensai | who wants to be my TCP guru today? |
| 14:54.14 | tensai | when a connection is torn down, who sends a FIN and who sends a FIN/ACK and why? |
| 14:54.53 | sjansen | I would expect whoever is closing to send FIN, and the other person to FIN,ACK. I'd expect it to depend on the protocol. |
| 14:55.57 | sjansen | But if I'm wrong, that's only because I haven't bothered double checking and your check hasn't cleared yet. |
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| 14:58.15 | tensai | my book says that FIN/ACK can be sent first, in which case the peer responds with FIN |
| 14:58.57 | tensai | but why would a host choose FIN/ACK over FIN? setting that one bit would take precious time. maybe I'm just lazy but I would always send FIN. |
| 14:59.55 | tensai | time to read the RFC I guess |
| 15:00.13 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@70.102.163.132) |
| 15:02.28 | vontrapp | waiting for the ack when sending just fin takes precious time |
| 15:03.09 | tensai | ah, the RFC diagram makes more sense. this book isn't clear. the first to close always sends FIN, followed by an ACK. wait, where does a FIN+ACK get sent?... |
| 15:04.34 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 15:05.03 | vontrapp | is there a command i can run to force a port open for bind? |
| 15:05.05 | *** join/#utah fungus (n=olsonl@2001:5c0:8fff:fffe:0:0:0:1647) |
| 15:05.15 | vontrapp | i'm sick of waiting on timeout |
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| 15:10.34 | goozbach | vontrapp: I could just /kick you? |
| 15:11.02 | vontrapp | goozbach: not for irc |
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| 15:32.07 | Det3 | dum de dum. |
| 15:32.17 | Det3 | Tcl testbenches. :-) |
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| 15:46.39 | javert42 | I'm trying to start a fedora install, but it's hanging up on "Loading pata_via driver..." Does anybody know how I can tell the kernel not to load it? |
| 15:55.36 | vontrapp | javert42: try disabling direct DMA in the bios |
| 15:55.43 | vontrapp | or other dma options |
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| 16:18.53 | levi | Good morning. |
| 16:19.02 | sjansen | javert42: Is it hanging, or just taking forever? Give it a few minutes. That's a known bug. |
| 16:19.08 | sjansen | levi: prove it |
| 16:22.06 | levi | sjansen: A proof is left as an exercise for the reader. :P |
| 16:23.16 | levi | elg: Unfortunately, the whole tail of that thread was a bunch of us talking past each other. |
| 16:23.22 | Det3 | levi: You should write undergraduate textbooks. |
| 16:23.53 | levi | Det3: Maybe someday. I would eventually like to end up teaching at a university. |
| 16:24.14 | Det3 | levi: I'm saving that for retirement, but I have to get my BSEE and MSEE first. |
| 16:24.25 | Det3 | Now if I can just get Dr. Cotter to let me back in.... |
| 16:24.36 | levi | Det3: I'm in the same place, and then a Ph.D as well. |
| 16:24.47 | levi | Except mine will be in CS, not EE. |
| 16:26.11 | Det3 | *nod* Good little bit there. |
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| 16:30.33 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 16:31.16 | Supaplex | what's the alternative to l2tp that might be supported on a dialup/pop server? (drawing a blank) |
| 16:31.31 | Peregrinus | pptp? |
| 16:32.25 | Supaplex | humm yeah. or maybe even vpn (but more overhead?) |
| 16:35.48 | sjansen | Harumph! |
| 16:36.08 | Peregrinus | Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating either l2tp or pptp. |
| 16:36.12 | sjansen | Google my name on right there on page 1 is someone that isn't me. |
| 16:36.24 | sjansen | Back in the day, I owned at least the first 5 pages. |
| 16:36.52 | sjansen | Although... Over the first 7 pages there are only 3 results that aren't me, so I guess that's something. |
| 16:37.01 | sjansen | But still... |
| 16:37.42 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:37.49 | sjansen | ~beat neybar |
| 16:37.49 | ibot | ACTION beats neybar with a very wet, sticky noodle |
| 16:37.54 | vontrapp | sjansen: you're the first result for me |
| 16:38.10 | vontrapp | even my google desktop result is you |
| 16:38.22 | goozbach | sjansen: you're saying this isn't you? http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=community&id=5386413 |
| 16:38.34 | Tene | Accounts I have in three places show up on the second page for my name... |
| 16:38.47 | Tene | My twitter account shows up on page 5 |
| 16:39.08 | levi | elg: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/scienceblogs/CyKN/~3/161974038/fugues_from_the_ridiculous_to.php |
| 16:39.11 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 16:39.26 | sjansen | goozbach: respect your elders |
| 16:40.48 | sjansen | goozbach: I'm a grumpy, old, bearded Unix admin and programmer. Do you think that looks like me? |
| 16:41.02 | sjansen | ~beat goozbach |
| 16:41.02 | ibot | ACTION beats goozbach with a dripping-wet & less-than-fresh fish |
| 16:41.21 | sinuhe | sjansen: Yes, you are grumpy, but curmudgeon is not yet: you're not old enough. |
| 16:41.23 | sjansen | ~botsnack |
| 16:41.23 | ibot | :), sjansen |
| 16:41.52 | sinuhe | sjansen: Given some time, however... |
| 16:41.57 | sinuhe | :-) |
| 16:42.03 | sjansen | Not yet. But it's only a matter of time. I already have a blog, now all I need is the shotgun, a porch and a rocking chair. |
| 16:42.49 | sjansen | A few more years and I'll be writing 15,000 word rants about kids these days and why they should stay off my lawn. |
| 16:43.00 | sjansen | Yessir, it'll be wonderful. I can't wait. |
| 16:44.44 | Supaplex | then we'll print t-shirts that read: Mr Cheney, I'm not a quail! |
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| 16:50.25 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@137.65.57.31) |
| 16:52.23 | levi | Let me take a moment to plug the PLIG website I put up at http://plig.jottit.com/ and ask anyone who's interested to let me know what you'd like to see out of it. |
| 16:53.37 | sjansen | ~plig levi |
| 16:53.38 | ibot | ACTION ties levi down and proceeds to explain the advantages of perl^w python^w ruby^w haskell^w lisp^w scheme^w java^w C^w forth^w bf^w elg^w pascal |
| 16:54.48 | Tene | levi: If you're looking for suggestions, I'm vaguely interested in summaries of "These are the things that I learned from learning this programming language that I wasn't aware of or didn't understand before" for various languages. |
| 16:55.56 | Tene | Or, more generally, articles along the lines of "This is how I learned about Functional Programming" and other such ideas. |
| 16:56.34 | Tene | Basically, I don't know what I don't know, and I'd like to be exposed to other ideas to motivate me to learn new things. |
| 16:57.15 | Sargun | Who here is above 30 |
| 16:57.26 | Sargun | *!sargun |
| 16:58.02 | sjansen | I don't see how PLIG can hope to actually succeed. |
| 16:58.17 | mrpull | sjansen: that is the spirit! |
| 16:58.38 | sjansen | I don't think local interest is strong enough for anything other than flamewars or pontification by unqualified windbags. |
| 16:58.53 | *** join/#utah Lakshmi (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/lakshmi) |
| 16:58.59 | sjansen | I'd love to be proven wrong, but what's the draw? |
| 16:59.07 | mrpull | sjansen: i can start the flamewars if you can be the windbag ;-) |
| 16:59.34 | sjansen | I want hear from experienced programmers using non-mainstream languages or twisting mainstream languages in evil ways. |
| 17:00.12 | sjansen | But user groups don't seem to pull in that type of person very often. |
| 17:00.17 | mrpull | i like the idea of an umbrella language interest group... i'm not able to attend urug, utah-python, perl mongers, etc...but a single group is attractive |
| 17:00.30 | rsimpkins | jayce: ping |
| 17:01.26 | sjansen | User groups tend to pull in students and working stiffs. Students sometimes do interesting things, but students are rarely experienced enough to be interesting. And working stiffs are usually don't boring work. |
| 17:02.18 | Tene | sjansen: so what type of group would the people you'd like to hear from be interested in? |
| 17:02.32 | Tene | Also, do you include yourself in that group? |
| 17:03.10 | *** part/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 17:04.07 | Sargun | Peregrinus, heh |
| 17:04.14 | Sargun | Where did mheath go? |
| 17:05.36 | levi | sjansen: The idea is to draw hobbyist programmers who are interested in learning other languages. |
| 17:05.46 | sjansen | That's just it, I'm not sure they're thick enough on the ground to find and attract. Most people doing wicked cool things in one language don't have much time to explore others in depth. Or if they do, they're doing it in a national forum like ACM, lambda-the-ultimate or alt.computers.languages.too.much.free.time. |
| 17:05.53 | mrpull | Sargun: a soul seeking pilgrimage to his motherland |
| 17:06.38 | Tene | mrpull: he went to sulk in his parents' basement? |
| 17:06.46 | levi | sjansen: Doesn't have to be an in-depth exploration. And you don't even have to do more than one language if you don't want. |
| 17:06.47 | mrpull | Tene: something like that |
| 17:06.51 | sjansen | I consider myself a hobbyist. I enjoy exploring languages, but once you go past core languages like C, Java, Perl, Python, Ruby I'd just being blowing smoke. |
| 17:07.41 | levi | sjansen: Those core languages are perfectly appropriate for the group as well. It's not meant to be entirely esoteric stuff. |
| 17:08.02 | sjansen | levi: Yeah, but without a certain depth, what's the point? You have to reach a certain level of experience before you can say anything more useful than "monads are hard". |
| 17:08.41 | sjansen | I mean, I could claim "no one need continuations, anonymous object should be enough" but that doesn't mean I'm right. |
| 17:09.45 | sjansen | levi: Yeah, but what's my motivation to participate? If I wanted to know about Java's new iterator syntax, I could just Google it or hang out in UJUG. |
| 17:09.47 | levi | sjansen: So, you're saying there's no one around that might be able to provide a counterargument to that? |
| 17:09.54 | elg | sjansen: well, talking about what monads are in the first place is probably excellent material for the group |
| 17:09.56 | elg | as I understand it |
| 17:10.42 | Tene | Perhaps one of the goals is just to get several smart people together in a language-oriented setting and discover what sort of discussions might happen? |
| 17:10.48 | sjansen | Most languages are really more of the same with different syntax. |
| 17:10.49 | levi | The point is breadth, not depth. And if there's no one around with enough depth in a specific language, then discussion will have to be superficial about that. |
| 17:10.58 | elg | sjansen: the idea is to expose people who are intersted enough to sign up for a mailing list and go to the occasional meeting, to things about other languages that they don't or won't have the time to explore, at least without a motivation by learning something cool about the language from another language hobbyist |
| 17:11.12 | neybar | I'm interested in learning new languages. My biggest detraction is lack of time. And most projects that I think would be cool to learn a new language on are generally faster and more reliably built in the languages that I already know. |
| 17:11.30 | neybar | I have a whole list of languages that I think would be interesting to learn about though. |
| 17:11.32 | elg | and discussing just how much languages are more of the same with different syntax, and how much differences actually do make a difference, is a fascinating topic |
| 17:11.48 | sjansen | Sure, there's fundamental differences like strong and weak typing, but can we productively discuss that? Honestly? And there's cultural differences, but can we productively discuss that? |
| 17:11.49 | elg | learning about a new language on your own takes dedication and effort |
| 17:12.04 | levi | Another idea is to provide a way for people with a vague interest in something with resources and a couple of peers interested in the same thing, and some quick exercises to play with. |
| 17:12.04 | elg | sitting there and listening to someone talk about it in a meeting is painless, interesting, and non-committal |
| 17:12.38 | levi | I think a lot of people would like to learn a new language, but have no idea what they'd program with it. |
| 17:12.49 | elg | sjansen: can we productively discuss that? well, yes, if we can enlighten a half dozen people to what strong and weak typing even _is_, we've made a difference |
| 17:12.55 | sjansen | Right, but who's going to present about the other language? Someone who started teaching himself a month ago? |
| 17:13.02 | elg | why not? |
| 17:13.14 | elg | sure, they won't be an expert |
| 17:13.21 | elg | others will have questions, that he won't be able to answer |
| 17:13.28 | elg | everyone will be curious and go home and learn more |
| 17:13.31 | levi | sjansen: It's sort of a 'study group' concept. |
| 17:13.32 | elg | including the presenter |
| 17:13.58 | levi | sjansen: The members of a study group certainly aren't experts, but the fact that there's a group at all magnifies their individual efforts. |
| 17:13.58 | sjansen | Because if they're not an expert, I have little reason to trust their judgment. I can be not an expert and form my own opinions in very little time too. |
| 17:14.17 | levi | sjansen: There are things in the world aside from opinion, Mr. Opinionated. :) |
| 17:14.46 | elg | levi: that link was great |
| 17:14.56 | levi | elg: The fugues one? |
| 17:14.58 | elg | fugues are awesome |
| 17:15.03 | levi | I thought you'd enjoy that. |
| 17:15.21 | sjansen | Sitting in a room full of the blind leading the blind doesn't sound like much fun to me because my user group experience has taught me eventually someone with too much ego and not enough experience will start making claims that take us down the wrong path. |
| 17:15.33 | neybar | sjansen: that is sort of unfair though. Who here isn't a self-taught linux geek? Most of us don't need much motivation to start learning something. I don't think it is fair to say that just because I haven't spent years programming in language X, I can't present on the basics of a language and say what I liked or disliked about it so far |
| 17:15.44 | levi | sjansen: I don't envision most of the activity taking place in meetings, actually. |
| 17:16.18 | elg | heh. ping is not gnu |
| 17:16.20 | sjansen | I don't want to know that duck typing is yummy. I want to know how hard it is to build a 50,000+ line system using duck typing. |
| 17:16.53 | levi | sjansen: The groups isn't really about 50,000+ line systems or what you might build them in. It's about programming languages. |
| 17:17.00 | levi | s/groups/group/ |
| 17:17.21 | sjansen | I don't want to know monads are hard. I want to ask hard questions about a real world example where monads made a program better. |
| 17:18.01 | levi | I don't know why you keep bringing up Monads. I don't know if there's enough local Haskell experience to cover it in any depth, and it's a particularly difficult one to boot. |
| 17:18.31 | levi | But I think that PLIG would be a good forum for a group of people interested in learning Haskell to get together and work through a tutorial or something. |
| 17:19.01 | sjansen | Maybe it's because I already waste a lot of time every day with my ear to the ground waiting to hear about new tech, it doesn't sound that interesting to me. Sounds like you're talking about a distributed ear network. |
| 17:19.02 | levi | I could certainly give a presentation about continuations, though. |
| 17:19.29 | levi | No, it's not about listening for new tech at all. |
| 17:19.45 | sjansen | I keep bringing up monads because I've been trying to teach myself haskell lately, so it's on my mind. |
| 17:20.07 | sjansen | I'm trying to figure out what they are, not just how to use them, and whether they're actually useful. |
| 17:20.10 | levi | Forth is just as legitimate a topic as Javascript or Scala or whatever. |
| 17:20.43 | sjansen | Okay, I shouldn't say new. I should say, outside the mainstream. Interesting. Different. |
| 17:20.46 | levi | sjansen: As a PLIG participant, you could post links to resources you find particularly useful as you're searching, and discuss what you've found with others. |
| 17:21.03 | elg | someone might be able to give you the 5-line description of monads that works for you |
| 17:21.17 | levi | sjansen: Well, C is just as legitimate as Forth or Javascript. |
| 17:21.27 | sjansen | 90% of user group members are lurkers |
| 17:21.28 | elg | and you wouldn't have to waste so many hours trying to figure them out on your own driving you to bitterness :) |
| 17:21.54 | sjansen | How are you going to take a topic that seems to have limited interest and find non-lurkers? |
| 17:22.01 | levi | sjansen: Sure, but the idea is to generate material that's useful for lurkers, and to provide simple things to draw them into a bit of activity. |
| 17:23.15 | levi | A presentation or write-up on co-routines in C would be fun, for example, as much as I hate C. :) |
| 17:24.07 | elg | sjansen: we already have enough non-lurkers |
| 17:24.15 | Sargun | low-level languages are evil |
| 17:24.21 | elg | the question is where will we find the other 90%? |
| 17:24.33 | sjansen | How will it escape from Plug's gravity well? |
| 17:24.35 | levi | We've seen on PLUG how a simple programming problem can draw people out of the woodwork. |
| 17:25.11 | sjansen | How will it organize yourself? |
| 17:25.25 | levi | I couldn't parse that sentence. |
| 17:25.54 | vontrapp | sjansen: you keep talking like the group would be a bunch of X users trying to learn about Y |
| 17:25.58 | sjansen | In theory, there was demand for Utah Windows Users Anonymous, but it enjoy a brief time in the sun and died. |
| 17:26.05 | sjansen | How will it organize itself? |
| 17:26.22 | sjansen | Or are you proposing you're willing to organize it? |
| 17:26.22 | elg | sjansen: it died because I stopped being a professional admin ;-) |
| 17:26.38 | levi | sjansen: What do you think I've been doing? |
| 17:27.12 | sjansen | levi: And who's going to help you? |
| 17:27.27 | levi | sjansen: Well, that remains to be seen. Apparently not you. |
| 17:27.30 | sjansen | One reason Plug survives is jayce is really good at getting other people to do stuff for him. |
| 17:28.00 | vontrapp | ideally it would be upside-down-A(X) backwards-E(Y) : Y knows a lot about X and enlightens others that want to know more about X |
| 17:29.45 | sjansen | levi: Well, yes, true, but that's not my point. My point is, "if you build it they will come" isn't true. You're doing the work, you're asking the questions that need to be asked, and I'm pushing back to make sure you're being skeptical enough. |
| 17:29.52 | vontrapp | ∀(X) ∃(Y) : Y knows X, teaches others |
| 17:30.20 | sjansen | vontrapp: for a sufficient large population, perhaps |
| 17:30.30 | levi | sjansen: Well, I'm under no illusion that this is a guranteed success. |
| 17:31.03 | vontrapp | sjansen: just define the set of languages to be exaclty what languages you have members that know a lot about it |
| 17:31.08 | vontrapp | it can start small |
| 17:31.23 | levi | But it's something that I've wanted for a long time, so I'm going to give it a shot. |
| 17:32.26 | elg | ~wake postfix gurus |
| 17:32.27 | ibot | ACTION throws a barrel-full of ice water on postfix gurus and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!" |
| 17:32.43 | elg | echo test | mutt hans@example.com |
| 17:32.50 | levi | I mean, I'd never be able to get a Scheme Users Group or, even less likely, an OCaml Users Group, to take off. |
| 17:32.57 | elg | ends up in my inbox. (my smtp server is set to mail.fugal.net) |
| 17:33.03 | elg | that's bad. how do I fix it? |
| 17:33.49 | elg | to clarify, my smtp relay server for theh postfix on my laptop is set to mail.fugal.net, which is where the interception is happening |
| 17:34.17 | *** part/#utah Peregrinus (n=lamontp@class1-nat.gurulabs.com) |
| 17:37.39 | decriptor | vontrapp: how did you get those characters? |
| 17:37.50 | vontrapp | http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/search.htm?q=quantifier&preview=entity |
| 17:38.10 | decriptor | I have discrete math this semester I'd love to add those characters |
| 17:38.47 | vontrapp | i have that url as a quick search in firefox, with %s where quantifier is |
| 17:39.01 | decriptor | nice |
| 17:39.21 | decriptor | I already bookmarked it |
| 17:39.22 | elg | vontrapp: blog that |
| 17:39.27 | elg | the quick search |
| 17:39.28 | vontrapp | elg: i already did |
| 17:39.34 | decriptor | link? |
| 17:40.19 | vontrapp | http://von.fugal.net/blog/show/Instant_Unicode_Gratification/32 |
| 17:41.34 | Sargun | heh |
| 17:44.04 | elg | nice |
| 17:44.13 | elg | I'd never looked at making quick search bookmarks |
| 17:44.18 | elg | didn't even realize about keywords |
| 17:46.02 | vontrapp | "unicode quantifier" :) |
| 17:53.40 | *** join/#utah vontrapp_ (n=von@70.102.163.132) |
| 18:01.16 | *** join/#utah vontrapp_ (n=von@70.102.163.132) |
| 18:03.53 | Supaplex | humm where can I find a linux friendly internal isdn adapter for next to nothing.... |
| 18:04.25 | Sargun | why ISDN? |
| 18:04.27 | Sargun | WHY? |
| 18:04.49 | Supaplex | customers have $$ is why |
| 18:05.25 | Sargun | who wants ISDN? |
| 18:05.32 | Supaplex | some guy in TN |
| 18:05.53 | Sargun | an ISDN from TN to UT? |
| 18:05.54 | atoponce | vontrapp: grpn is another rpn-function calc... |
| 18:05.59 | atoponce | although not very pretty |
| 18:05.59 | Supaplex | I'd like to have a testbed box to test things to. |
| 18:06.14 | Supaplex | Sargun: no, http://www.surfthe.us/dul/ |
| 18:06.20 | elg | http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~pelzlpj/orpie/ |
| 18:06.21 | brac | [Orpie] |
| 18:06.37 | elg | orpie is the awesomest non-hp48g rpn calc |
| 18:06.55 | levi | Plus it's written in OCaml. |
| 18:18.44 | sjansen | *sigh* I really do need to find time to learn OCaml. |
| 18:19.08 | tensai | aha! I found the offending FIN |
| 18:19.16 | Supaplex | Sargun: whereis time returns a few results. ;) hehe |
| 18:19.16 | sjansen | Now that I've started on Haskell, though, I feel should understand it better before switch tracks. |
| 18:19.31 | sjansen | SYN,tensai |
| 18:21.06 | sjansen | elg: Did you solve your Postfix problem? I'm not sure I understood the question. |
| 18:25.20 | sjansen | levi: How about Language Exploration Group instead? LEG isn't likely to be confused with PLUG? |
| 18:27.07 | vontrapp | language exploration group orgy? |
| 18:27.08 | sjansen | You'd get people signing up to be members just for the shirt. |
| 18:27.13 | vontrapp | sorry, couldn't think of another o word |
| 18:27.17 | vontrapp | LEGO |
| 18:27.54 | sjansen | "LEG men know more ways.... wait, this is getting too dirty" |
| 18:28.55 | *** join/#utah hatul30 (i=hatul30@gateway/tor/x-9e2a09b4d99498b0) |
| 18:31.29 | elg | sjansen: not yet, have been grading tests |
| 18:31.31 | elg | er, homeworks |
| 18:31.50 | sjansen | ~grade elg |
| 18:31.59 | elg | the problem is, anything that goes through my smtp server, if it matches one of my users (hans,jacob,von,etc.) it gets delivered to us no matter what the domain is |
| 18:32.27 | elg | i sent an email to jacob@jacobthurman.com and it ended up in Jacob's email |
| 18:32.40 | sjansen | Oh, hey, look at that elg is a permutation of leg. It could be the Language Exploration and elg fan Group. |
| 18:32.50 | sjansen | If only I could find a way to make that recursive... |
| 18:32.54 | elg | luckily this mostly affects me. and maybe von. but needless to say jacob doesn't know the answer to the question I asked jacob |
| 18:33.10 | elg | sweet. the elg fan group |
| 18:33.24 | vontrapp | elg's language group |
| 18:33.35 | elg | heh. but it's not my language group |
| 18:33.47 | elg | lEvi's Language Group |
| 18:33.49 | sjansen | You could start a hostile takeover. |
| 18:34.04 | elg | Elg is levi's Language Group |
| 18:34.10 | elg | ellg |
| 18:34.16 | elg | then I wouldn't have to change my nick ;-) |
| 18:34.22 | elg | but I like plig |
| 18:34.41 | sjansen | dig dug |
| 18:34.44 | sjansen | plig plug |
| 18:34.59 | vontrapp | what does plig stand for agian? |
| 18:35.03 | vontrapp | digger was better |
| 18:35.15 | vontrapp | dig dug had the worst graphics and music |
| 18:35.19 | elg | programming language interest group |
| 18:35.29 | elg | or was it provo language interest group? |
| 18:35.41 | vontrapp | maybe we could make it plink |
| 18:35.57 | elg | k for klowns? |
| 18:36.31 | sjansen | Isn't plinko a Price is Right game? |
| 18:38.18 | vontrapp | pilage? programming interesting languages and group esoterics? |
| 18:38.40 | sjansen | Now that's a group I'd join. |
| 18:39.21 | sjansen | Would could be better than sitting our discussing languages than going out to destroy and steal stuff after the meeting? |
| 18:39.53 | Tene | Ruby And Perl Enthusiasts |
| 18:40.18 | vontrapp | parse error |
| 18:41.08 | sjansen | Perl Enthusiasts Envying Ruby |
| 18:42.11 | Supaplex | EAGAIN |
| 18:42.27 | vontrapp | nice! |
| 18:42.32 | vontrapp | now what's it stand for? |
| 18:43.46 | vontrapp | PROM php reaks of mold |
| 18:44.32 | tensai | ~lart setxkbmap |
| 18:44.32 | ibot | executes killall -HUP setxkbmap |
| 18:44.39 | vontrapp | Perl Only 'Elps Monkeys |
| 18:44.55 | tensai | I decided to switch to dvorak and now my keyboard is all goofy |
| 18:45.03 | tensai | after switching back to qwerty, that is |
| 18:45.09 | vontrapp | tensai: yeah, that one likes to segfault and things, and leave you with bad keyboard |
| 18:45.12 | Tene | Languages Are More Exciting than Real-life. |
| 18:45.19 | tensai | my multimedia keys don't work :( |
| 18:45.29 | Tene | tensai: fire them and hire new ones. |
| 18:45.34 | findlay-w | you're not multimediated? |
| 18:45.42 | tensai | Tene: can't. union rules. |
| 18:45.44 | vontrapp | tensai: what desktop you use? |
| 18:45.49 | tensai | vontrapp: kde |
| 18:46.00 | Supaplex | grep -n EAGAIN /usr/include/asm-generic/errno-base.h |
| 18:46.00 | Supaplex | 14:#define EAGAIN 11 /* Try again */ |
| 18:46.02 | vontrapp | well i can't help you then |
| 18:46.04 | Tene | tensai: does xev respond to them? |
| 18:46.24 | tensai | Tene: yes |
| 18:46.38 | findlay-w | what about the kde keybinding dialog? |
| 18:46.41 | Tene | *obviously* KDE is inferior to $x. |
| 18:46.49 | vontrapp | Supaplex: that's why it's so perfect, try again in a different language |
| 18:46.49 | vontrapp | except we need it to make an acronym about the group |
| 18:47.08 | findlay-w | $x being e |
| 18:47.22 | tensai | findlay-w: I played with it a bit but it wouldn't reset |
| 18:47.31 | tensai | I could log out, but what a pain |
| 18:47.39 | findlay-w | yeah |
| 18:47.48 | vontrapp | ∀(x) : x > kde |
| 18:48.37 | vontrapp | tensai: try using xxkb |
| 18:48.56 | tensai | I have meta-s and meta-d set up to change desktop left and right. meta-d still works but not meta-s. |
| 18:48.59 | vontrapp | tensai: did you set the proper layouts in your xorg.conf? |
| 18:49.26 | Tene | findlay-w: still using e17? |
| 18:49.42 | tensai | vontrapp: it used to be working just fine. XbkLayout is "us" |
| 18:49.48 | findlay-w | Tene: yeah |
| 18:49.59 | vontrapp | tensai: yeah, you only have one layout |
| 18:50.09 | vontrapp | you want XkbLayout "us dvorak" |
| 18:50.37 | findlay-w | Tene: it does everything I want and is nice to look at |
| 18:50.48 | vontrapp | if you try to change the layout with only one layout in xorg.conf, Bad Things™ happen |
| 18:50.56 | findlay-w | but I still need to figure out how to customize my own theme |
| 18:50.58 | tensai | vontrapp: xxkb won't install due to some library conflict |
| 18:51.04 | vontrapp | sad |
| 18:51.25 | tensai | vontrapp: ok, that makes a little bit of sense. so I would have to list "dvorak" in there too? |
| 18:51.29 | elg | newspaper (college paper) front page: "Women have yet to equal men in politics" |
| 18:51.34 | vontrapp | yeah |
| 18:51.42 | findlay-w | elg: what does that mean? |
| 18:52.01 | findlay-w | is it a quota thing? Should the next 40 presidents be women just to even things out? |
| 18:52.17 | Tene | findlay-w: which theme are you using for now? |
| 18:52.29 | levi | elg: That sounds... potentially controversial. ;) |
| 18:52.39 | findlay-w | Tene: simply-white |
| 18:52.49 | findlay-w | and I can't get it to change :( |
| 18:53.25 | tensai | findlay-w: that sounds fair. and from now on my wife has to take out the garbage. |
| 18:53.36 | *** join/#utah ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 18:54.32 | elg | I reckon it probably means women are being discriminated against, and how unfair and we should all be up in arms |
| 18:54.39 | rsimpkins | What if the president of the united states gets pregnant? |
| 18:54.50 | elg | but what it *says* is that women just aren't as good as men at being politicians (yet) |
| 18:54.54 | elg | i haven't read the article |
| 18:56.18 | rsimpkins | I really think ol' Hillary has a shot. Anyone? *ducks* |
| 18:56.19 | findlay-w | rsimpkins: then the offspring becomes the property of the people |
| 18:57.06 | rsimpkins | I think the "America's Mom" jokes would be awesome. :) |
| 18:57.31 | Supaplex | findlay-w: lol |
| 18:57.49 | findlay-w | but to be president you have to be like 45 or something |
| 18:58.02 | elg | then she can blame every mistake she makes for the next 9 months on hormones |
| 18:58.05 | tensai | findlay-w: 35 |
| 18:58.08 | findlay-w | that's well beyond prime birhting years |
| 18:58.10 | Supaplex | I thought it wasn't that high |
| 18:58.18 | Supaplex | 35 sounds more like it |
| 18:58.18 | findlay-w | oh |
| 18:58.24 | findlay-w | well, it's in the Constitution |
| 18:58.35 | tensai | that's the sole reason I haven't run for president yet |
| 18:58.46 | maquis | 35 is a bit on the high end, but perfectly possible |
| 18:58.46 | dataw0lf | it's 35 |
| 18:58.47 | tensai | next election cycle though. you watch |
| 18:58.52 | elg | too old? |
| 18:59.19 | rsimpkins | "neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." |
| 18:59.30 | elg | maquis: are you implying 35-year olds are more high than 45 year olds? |
| 18:59.34 | tensai | ~lart elg for being an imperitent whipper snapper |
| 18:59.34 | ibot | does a little 'renice 20 -u elg' for being an imperitent whipper snapper |
| 18:59.44 | rsimpkins | Wasn't Kennedy the youngest pres? |
| 18:59.46 | Sargun | hi! |
| 18:59.50 | tensai | rsimpkins: yes |
| 18:59.51 | dataw0lf | rsimpkins: yes |
| 18:59.59 | findlay-w | Sargun: hies!!1 |
| 19:00.03 | elg | rsimpkins: yes, so nobody younger than him can be elected |
| 19:00.06 | Sargun | ~lart findlay-w |
| 19:00.06 | ibot | slams findlay-w against a large cement Tux |
| 19:00.32 | rsimpkins | You can be a senetor at 30, and pres at 35. |
| 19:00.54 | rsimpkins | I guess I better get going with my senate campain then.... :) |
| 19:01.09 | findlay-w | I'll vote for you |
| 19:01.16 | rsimpkins | First I need nap. Then I'm going to spend 3 months on my ranch in texas. |
| 19:01.17 | findlay-w | you'll replace the |
| 19:01.28 | findlay-w | Senate with an array of 10,000 linux machines |
| 19:01.35 | rsimpkins | Then, I'll have my daddy call up all his buddies to endorse me. |
| 19:02.04 | rsimpkins | The Senate can be replaced with a single 486 DX2 66. |
| 19:02.12 | findlay-w | sweet! |
| 19:02.18 | findlay-w | imagine the savings |
| 19:02.35 | rsimpkins | I'll modify fortune to spit out sound bites for CNN. |
| 19:02.53 | dataw0lf | make sure to get some credit card processing software for SIGs |
| 19:03.22 | tensai | but stay away from airport bathrooms |
| 19:03.36 | rsimpkins | I'm going to change the Lincoln bedroom in to a networking closet when I'm pres. :) |
| 19:04.15 | rsimpkins | And I think I'll move the white house to Hawaii. |
| 19:04.23 | rsimpkins | Right on the edge of the beach. |
| 19:04.47 | dataw0lf | boyeeeeeeee! |
| 19:04.50 | dataw0lf | </movie reference> |
| 19:05.42 | rsimpkins | Gonna move the house to Alaska, and pres to Hawaii... ahhh yeah! |
| 19:07.02 | rsimpkins | Then Ted Stevens can complain about all the tubes getting clogged up, while spending billions on Alaskan infrustructure. |
| 19:07.33 | dataw0lf | has he been fired yet? |
| 19:07.48 | rsimpkins | You can't fire a senetor, I think they have to be shot. ;) |
| 19:08.18 | dataw0lf | his head is the size of a barn, I'm sure it would be easy |
| 19:08.39 | *** join/#utah vontrapp_ (n=von@70.102.163.132) |
| 19:08.42 | rsimpkins | We just need to draft him in to the marines and send him to Iraq. |
| 19:09.09 | rsimpkins | Give him 4 months - and we'll have a nice strong buracrazy there. |
| 19:09.31 | tensai | the ted stevens thing was a complete misunderstanding |
| 19:09.37 | vontrapp | stupid ricker rackum |
| 19:09.52 | tensai | he confused a report from his aides on the Internet with a memo from his doctor telling him his tubes were clogged |
| 19:12.40 | findlay-w | the complete works of Elizabeth Gaskell are $900 |
| 19:12.49 | findlay-w | guess I'm not getting that anytime soon |
| 19:13.00 | elg | me either |
| 19:13.04 | findlay-w | whereas Jane Austen goes for about $70 |
| 19:13.17 | elg | and people have actually heard of jane austen |
| 19:13.41 | dataw0lf | victorian soap operas |
| 19:13.44 | dataw0lf | blech |
| 19:13.54 | findlay-w | bleach? |
| 19:13.57 | RyanE | that's circular. The *reason* JA are $70 is because of economies of scale. |
| 19:14.15 | findlay-w | um, Jane Austen is NOT Victorian, she's Romantic |
| 19:14.26 | findlay-w | thank you very much |
| 19:14.28 | dataw0lf | either way, gay. |
| 19:14.39 | dataw0lf | read some Clancy and get your testosterone back up, guy |
| 19:14.59 | findlay-w | Victoria probably wasn't even coherent (if born at all) in Jane Austen's heyday |
| 19:16.10 | findlay-w | yeah you're right. Mozart will have to do for now |
| 19:16.18 | elg | RyanE: the reason JA are $70 is because A) it's public domain and B) enough people want to buy them that several publishers compete |
| 19:16.38 | findlay-w | elg: EG is public domain too |
| 19:16.47 | elg | yeah, but nobody wants to buy her stuff |
| 19:16.52 | elg | so it's a niche |
| 19:17.02 | findlay-w | true |
| 19:17.24 | elg | of course, I could be completely wrong. I've never heard of her so I assume nobody else cares either, but maybe she's a famous author in some genre I could care less about |
| 19:17.34 | findlay-w | the BYU library has a set though |
| 19:18.22 | elg | i want to stab people when they break ports |
| 19:18.39 | elg | or packages in general, but with ports it's doubly annoying because it turns out as a compile error |
| 19:18.41 | dataw0lf | elg: as in FreeBSD? |
| 19:18.52 | elg | as in macports, but if I used freebsd I'd feel the same about their ports |
| 19:18.56 | tensai | findlay-w: does project gutenburg have them? |
| 19:18.57 | findlay-w | the port of LA is supposed to be the busiest in the workd |
| 19:19.12 | findlay-w | tensai: probably some of it |
| 19:19.20 | elg | which reminds me |
| 19:19.26 | findlay-w | EG scholarship seems to be a relatively recent thing |
| 19:19.31 | elg | october starts next week. i'll be reading frankenstein |
| 19:19.44 | findlay-w | and listening to German drinking songs |
| 19:19.58 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 19:20.07 | tensai | hmm. why is my email working? it doesn't make sense. |
| 19:20.27 | elg | findlay-w: are you studying jane and liz? |
| 19:20.46 | findlay-w | I am |
| 19:20.49 | elg | I thought your thing was esoteric "classical music" |
| 19:21.08 | elg | what does one call the collection of genres that most people think of as "classical"? |
| 19:21.10 | findlay-w | I've picked up a side diversion |
| 19:21.33 | elg | aren't they about romance and falling in love and all that stuff you despise? |
| 19:21.38 | findlay-w | elg: Western Music or art music |
| 19:21.45 | findlay-w | not at all |
| 19:21.57 | elg | well, brittney spears is western |
| 19:22.07 | tensai | elg: it's also about drinking tea and death |
| 19:22.14 | elg | and when I think art music I think highbrow better-than-thou music that's too artistic to sound good |
| 19:22.28 | elg | tensai: and wearing 10 layers of clothes |
| 19:22.29 | findlay-w | perhaps there's no good name |
| 19:23.12 | findlay-w | drinking dead tea with 10 pairs of socks on |
| 19:23.21 | Sargun | uh |
| 19:23.26 | findlay-w | hu |
| 19:23.35 | tensai | elg: orchestral, syphonic. that covers a good chunk of it. |
| 19:23.47 | tensai | s/syp/symp/ |
| 19:23.48 | findlay-w | tensai: that's a good way to say it |
| 19:24.19 | tensai | speaking of which, I'm going to be in an opera this year. should be fun. |
| 19:24.33 | findlay-w | which one? |
| 19:26.07 | tensai | I don't know yet. I was asked to sing in the chorus and we haven't started yet. It's a christmas story about some kids that do something. |
| 19:26.45 | elg | tensai: too limiting |
| 19:27.09 | elg | what about chamber music? solos? |
| 19:28.05 | elg | I recommend "pre-pop" |
| 19:28.09 | findlay-w | those are spurious outsiders |
| 19:28.10 | elg | even for contemporary art music |
| 19:28.18 | findlay-w | pre jazz? |
| 19:28.26 | elg | jazz was pop in its tiem |
| 19:28.29 | elg | time even |
| 19:28.35 | findlay-w | true |
| 19:28.44 | elg | and ragtime |
| 19:28.53 | elg | I really sort of draw the line starting at ragtime I guess |
| 19:28.57 | findlay-w | I guess the serious stuff was never really 'popular' |
| 19:29.01 | levi | How about 'music commonly referred to as classical'? |
| 19:29.15 | elg | folk music has always been around |
| 19:29.20 | findlay-w | that sounds too PC |
| 19:29.27 | findlay-w | :) |
| 19:29.29 | elg | and much classical music was popular music |
| 19:29.42 | elg | but I think there's a line that was crossed with ragtime |
| 19:30.19 | findlay-w | some ragtime and jazz composers were concerned with 'legitimizing' their music in the context of the traditional stuff |
| 19:31.36 | levi | Mmm, I love putting on these headphones and hearing the conversations going on around fade to nothingness. |
| 19:31.41 | *** topic/#utah by elg -> The channel for content free discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | PLIG RFC: http://plig.jottit.com/ | Be excellent to sjansen. |
| 19:31.56 | elg | Mmm, I love not having conversations going around. :) |
| 19:32.01 | findlay-w | ~excellent sjansen |
| 19:32.02 | elg | and having speakers |
| 19:32.08 | elg | but hey, I like that headphone effect too |
| 19:32.28 | levi | I get that effect too at home late at night. |
| 19:32.35 | levi | Since I have an office there now. |
| 19:36.10 | elg | nice |
| 19:36.18 | elg | i'll have an office someday |
| 19:36.37 | decriptor | if you have a bad disk in a raid 5 does the performance of the machine get affected (software raid) |
| 19:36.41 | elg | with a desk, reading chair, speakers, and window |
| 19:36.46 | levi | Unfortunately, I share it with my wife, so it's overflowing with sewing and scrapbooking crap. |
| 19:37.06 | levi | My reading chair is in the bedroom. |
| 19:37.39 | elg | my bedroom's too small |
| 19:37.48 | elg | at least, with a california king in it it is :) |
| 19:38.02 | levi | My bedroom is bigger than my family room. |
| 19:38.30 | levi | I wish I could talk my wife into a king-size bed. |
| 19:39.00 | levi | We're using my pre-marriage full-size bed, not even a queen. |
| 19:39.21 | elg | we had a double (that's the same as full right?) when I first got married |
| 19:39.40 | elg | she doesn't want to give up the cuddle? |
| 19:39.55 | elg | can you learn lucid snoring? |
| 19:39.57 | levi | She's 6 months pregnant and uses a gigantic body pillow. You can imagine how much room I've got. :) |
| 19:40.00 | elg | karate toss-turn? |
| 19:40.39 | elg | I always slept in a single growing up, on the top bunk, so I mostly stay in my little strip |
| 19:40.54 | elg | my wife, who had the double, sprawls out |
| 19:41.06 | levi | Even then, you get a little bit of room to move. |
| 19:41.07 | elg | but with a king, she usually doesn't crowd me out :) |
| 19:41.37 | elg | now's the time, or maybe when she's 8 months, to put your foot down |
| 19:41.43 | elg | while you have the belly and pillow as an excuse :) |
| 19:42.08 | levi | Well, I've got used to it, and I don't really want to spend money on a mattress at the moment. |
| 19:42.49 | decriptor | elg: you have to be careful, my last one came 6.5 weeks early |
| 19:43.00 | decriptor | that 8 month thing wouldn't have worked out so well : |
| 19:43.01 | decriptor | :P |
| 19:43.34 | elg | levi: what's her due date? |
| 19:44.02 | levi | elg: Dec 8 |
| 19:44.10 | tensai | decriptor: yes, performance will degrade. the OS has to read each of the redundant sectors and recalculate the original data. |
| 19:44.22 | elg | what does "IN TRANSIT TO" mean in ups tracking? that it's on a truck somewhere? that it's close? that it's sitting in a truck in the parking lot? |
| 19:44.25 | tensai | decriptor: I can't give you any hard numbers but it is a factor |
| 19:44.30 | elg | they have departure scan and then in transit to |
| 19:44.33 | decriptor | tensai: thanks |
| 19:44.42 | vontrapp | my templated class compiles just fine until the linker comes and throws around undefined references |
| 19:44.55 | levi | elg: Just means it's somewhere between its departure scan and the arrival scan at the next place. |
| 19:45.02 | decriptor | this is the second time a drive has gone in a couple months so we are looking at another machine right now :/ |
| 19:45.20 | tensai | levi: I recall when we upgraded from a full to a queen. it was great. she still wants a king but I find them too large. |
| 19:45.31 | elg | someone just thought it'd be nice to note that at 2:25am? |
| 19:45.46 | tensai | elg: what else are you gonna do at 2:25am? |
| 19:46.25 | elg | if they're bored, they could say 'driving through tenessee' or something more descriptive :) |
| 19:47.08 | elg | ah, I think I see |
| 19:47.16 | elg | it left NJ at 4:24am on 9/26 |
| 19:47.34 | elg | then, the next line is in transit to albuqueque 2:25am on 9/26 |
| 19:47.39 | elg | *before* the line before it |
| 19:47.42 | elg | so I bet it's time zone |
| 19:48.04 | *** join/#utah decriptor_ (i=sshaw@nat/novell/x-7196035e174d51b9) |
| 19:48.04 | elg | as it leaves NJ at 4:24, it becomes in transit to albuquerque at 2:25am alb. time |
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| 19:59.45 | vontrapp | am i doing this right? |
| 20:00.52 | vontrapp | http://pastie.caboo.se/101504 |
| 20:01.50 | vontrapp | and the implementation http://pastie.caboo.se/101506 |
| 20:02.03 | vontrapp | i'm getting link errors |
| 20:02.55 | levi | What kind of link errors? |
| 20:03.06 | vontrapp | test.cc:(.text+0x4f): undefined reference to `sem_q<int>::sem_q()' |
| 20:05.16 | levi | Hmm. |
| 20:07.52 | levi | Well, it looks like the right syntax to me. |
| 20:08.15 | *** join/#utah decriptor (i=sshaw@nat/novell/x-532884dc5e702933) |
| 20:08.36 | vontrapp | is there a special compile option? |
| 20:09.05 | vontrapp | well, there's no options needed to make the stl classes work |
| 20:09.07 | vontrapp | grrr |
| 20:09.26 | elg | have you tried template <class T> sem_q::sem_q()? |
| 20:10.15 | elg | or template sem_q<class T>::sem_q()? |
| 20:10.33 | elg | if you couldn't tell, my template debugging strategy is, shoot in the dark until you hit |
| 20:11.29 | levi | vontrapp: Did you actually implement the methods? |
| 20:11.46 | vontrapp | yeah |
| 20:11.57 | elg | do you mean define, levi? |
| 20:12.16 | levi | Implement the methods, define the functions... whatever. :) |
| 20:12.26 | vontrapp | template<class T> sem_q<T>::funcname() {} |
| 20:12.33 | vontrapp | is that the right syntax? |
| 20:13.35 | elg | have you tried template <class T> class sem_q { sem_q(); } |
| 20:14.33 | vontrapp | just the constructer alone you mean? |
| 20:15.01 | levi | vontrapp: You could always just put the bodies inside the template you've already got. |
| 20:15.42 | vontrapp | ~c++ sjansen |
| 20:15.52 | sjansen | ~c++-- |
| 20:15.53 | elg | vontrapp: yes |
| 20:15.59 | elg | but leave the implementation as |
| 20:16.15 | elg | template <class T> sem_q<T>::sem_q() {} |
| 20:17.05 | Sargun | ~rlart |
| 20:17.05 | ibot | farts in Lakshmi's general direction |
| 20:17.09 | Sargun | o.O |
| 20:17.20 | Sargun | ~rlart |
| 20:17.21 | ibot | takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down thaddeusq's throat until thaddeusq puts on 150lbs |
| 20:17.26 | vontrapp | elg: still get undefined reference |
| 20:22.35 | elg | what about non-constructor/destructors? |
| 20:22.39 | elg | will they compile ok |
| 20:22.45 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@h4607ddbe.area7.spcsdns.net) |
| 20:22.45 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:23.31 | levi | vontrapp: It works fine for me if I just put the definitions of the member functions in the template. |
| 20:23.35 | vontrapp | they give the same errors |
| 20:23.56 | elg | you are including the header file right? |
| 20:24.12 | vontrapp | i'm including it |
| 20:24.21 | elg | oh I think I know |
| 20:25.01 | elg | something about scope and headers |
| 20:25.19 | elg | basically, you can't implement templates in a separate .o file |
| 20:25.29 | nick125 | I love SSH. |
| 20:25.42 | nick125 | I randomly logged into the machine next me |
| 20:25.45 | elg | http://www.ddj.com/cpp/184403420 |
| 20:25.48 | brac | [Dr. Dobb's | Moving Templates Out of Header Files | November 1, 1997] |
| 20:26.20 | vontrapp | using schizo or what? |
| 20:26.41 | nick125 | I ran xdialog saying a message "Big Brother is watching", 30 seconds later the machine was shutdown :D |
| 20:28.01 | levi | "This is the point at which most people give up and infer that template implementations simply aren't meant to go into implementation files." |
| 20:28.04 | levi | Indeed. |
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| 20:31.45 | elg | -lart vontrapp |
| 20:32.15 | sjansen | "This is the point at which most people give up and infer programming wasn't meant to be done in C++." |
| 20:32.30 | levi | No kidding. |
| 20:33.02 | sjansen | You're not going to like my next quote. |
| 20:33.39 | levi | Sometimes I think I'd like to learn C++, just because you can do things with it that you can do in few other languages. But then I remember stuff like this, and decide it's not worth it unless someone wants to pay me. |
| 20:33.58 | vontrapp | well, if i #include "semq.cc" from main.cc that works |
| 20:33.59 | vontrapp | is that going to be problematic down the road? |
| 20:34.07 | sjansen | "This is the point when most people realize if $DEITY had wanted us to program in C++ he wouldn't have invented C." |
| 20:34.35 | sjansen | Life is too short to learn C++. |
| 20:34.52 | elg | vontrapp: not if the only thing in there is the definition of a template class |
| 20:35.02 | elg | but you might as well just put it in semq.h in that case |
| 20:35.31 | elg | o/~ you might as well.... |
| 20:35.36 | levi | Just put all the code for the semq implementation in semq.h. It's what most everyone does. |
| 20:35.50 | levi | That's why you hear about 'compiling your headers' in C++ circles. |
| 20:36.16 | levi | That never made any sense to me as a C programmer until I learned about templates. |
| 20:37.49 | brasto | http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/851/1364/1600/97566/bewareb.jpg |
| 20:38.00 | brasto | that's a safe picture... |
| 20:38.15 | elg | beware of the photoshop |
| 20:38.44 | tensai | elg: no, that looks totally real |
| 20:39.12 | mrpull | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:39.43 | tensai | who's got a mythtv and records hd content? |
| 20:39.45 | elg | photoshop |
| 20:39.47 | mrpull | especially how it must be bending the light around the arrow tip |
| 20:41.25 | tensai | brasto: did you make that? |
| 20:42.42 | sjansen | http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/09/java-is-right-answer-to-wrong-question.html |
| 20:42.44 | brac | [raganwald: Java is the right answer to the wrong question, Ruby is the wrong answer to the right question] |
| 20:43.01 | Supaplex | java on rails |
| 20:43.05 | Supaplex | uhh wait. nm |
| 20:45.39 | redbeard2 | keeping in mind that i never, ever mention religion in my class, one of my students just said, "man, you're irish? i thought you were mormon!" |
| 20:45.41 | elg | sjansen is the multiple choice answer to the wrong test |
| 20:45.54 | elg | haha |
| 20:46.07 | elg | well you did come from utah |
| 20:46.22 | elg | everyone knows all utahns are mormon |
| 20:46.25 | elg | and not irish |
| 20:46.28 | redbeard2 | apparently |
| 20:46.53 | *** join/#utah bachisanerd (n=Benjamin@65-100-212-127.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 20:47.19 | sjansen | elg: I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I've decided it's a compliment. |
| 20:47.45 | elg | and therein lies the secret to happiness |
| 20:48.18 | tensai | c++? |
| 20:48.28 | sjansen | ~lart tensai |
| 20:48.28 | ibot | whips out a sword and chops tensai in half |
| 20:50.02 | Supaplex | back together that is |
| 20:50.23 | goozbach | sjansen: http://blog.friocorte.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/komodo-vi-bindings.pdf |
| 20:50.44 | brasto | tensai: nope, just found it |
| 20:51.28 | brasto | Hey guys, I'd like to promote my client's site. I provide their hosting, and they are promoting their product at a huge bicycling expo in Las Vegas |
| 20:52.23 | brasto | I want to digg their site, but it seems digg is more for news articles or "Stories" than for site front pages... |
| 20:52.51 | brasto | Should I try to digg this anyway? http://delta7sports.com/index.html |
| 20:52.53 | brac | [Delta 7 Sports | Arantix Bike Frame | IsoTruss Bike] |
| 20:53.19 | brasto | Or, should I dig my blog/news article about it? http://flfn.org/blog/brasto/delta7sports-sotruss-arantix |
| 20:53.20 | mrpull | brasto: sure... people spam digg every day |
| 20:53.37 | mrpull | but spamming #utah isn't going to gain you any favors |
| 20:53.56 | brasto | mrpull, I'm an active member of the group, so I'm not just trying to spam |
| 20:54.12 | brasto | I use FreeBSD on the server |
| 20:54.45 | brasto | and I don't want to just spam digg |
| 20:55.29 | brasto | I want something successful that people will want to dig on digg |
| 21:06.42 | levi | http://www.acme.com/jef/singing_science/ |
| 21:08.07 | levi | (Where the original 'Why Does the Sun Shine?' can be found) |
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| 21:41.46 | elg | levi: never heard of it, but those look cool |
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| 21:45.18 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.154.118) |
| 21:49.26 | levi | It's the TMBG 'The sun is a mass of incandescent gas...' song. |
| 22:11.10 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@161.28.252.68) |
| 22:11.15 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 22:11.39 | decriptor | ping anyone... |
| 22:12.05 | PelaoFeliz | ack |
| 22:12.30 | elg | pong anyone |
| 22:14.35 | decriptor | cool |
| 22:14.56 | decriptor | it seems as though UVSC isn't blocking irc |
| 22:16.39 | elg | i'm going to try freezing small bâtards |
| 22:16.40 | elg | dough |
| 22:17.03 | tensai | elg: I've heard that works but I've never tried it personally |
| 22:17.06 | elg | then take it out of the freezer before bed, then turn on the oven when I rise and pop it in for a nice warm breakfast |
| 22:17.11 | elg | with little effort |
| 22:17.33 | elg | if I ever get a toaster oven, it might even be little energy :) |
| 22:18.00 | elg | i've heard dough freezes well, too |
| 22:22.05 | elg | i went to a "european grill" the other day for dinner |
| 22:22.16 | elg | their sourdough baguette was astonishingly good |
| 22:22.22 | elg | excellent crust, nice taste |
| 22:22.35 | elg | so much better than the brick oven place down the road |
| 22:22.51 | elg | i asked them about it, they do cook it there but the dough comes frozen |
| 22:33.49 | *** join/#utah protocol (n=protocol@ool-182c9eaa.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 22:42.20 | tensai | elg: after reading about your brick oven, I decided to alter my pizza baking method |
| 22:43.23 | tensai | I heated up my baking stone to 450 and slid the pizza right on |
| 22:43.27 | tensai | normally we assemble the pizza on the stone and then put it in, which to be honest has never sat right with me |
| 22:43.48 | tensai | it cooked much quicker and tasted wonderful. the only problem was my pizza was larger than my stone. |
| 22:43.57 | JoshH | ya, teh stone should be hot first |
| 22:44.35 | protocol | ouch |
| 22:44.40 | JoshH | at least that's what the stone i got for christmas said on it |
| 22:45.00 | protocol | wait... what kind of pizza is that? |
| 22:47.09 | elg | tensai: that can be messy :) |
| 22:47.16 | elg | but yes, definitely heat the stone first |
| 22:47.24 | elg | and don't stop at 450°. get it as hot as your oven goes |
| 22:47.50 | tensai | elg: I know that in theory, but I get nervous at high temperatures |
| 22:48.01 | tensai | protocol: home-made |
| 22:48.20 | elg | my apartment hasn't burnt down yet |
| 22:48.24 | tensai | elg: luckily it was only slightly larger, so it cooked up just fine with no spillage |
| 22:48.33 | protocol | tensai, nice. Tried doing that once... didn't come out to great |
| 22:48.48 | elg | then you've come to the right place |
| 22:48.58 | protocol | lol |
| 22:49.00 | tensai | protocol: what part failed? |
| 22:49.17 | protocol | tensai, um. The whole thing |
| 22:49.28 | protocol | Not with the stone per se |
| 22:49.59 | tensai | elg: I've got a bigger stone that I'll use next time too |
| 22:50.10 | tensai | I also want to get a peel |
| 22:50.16 | protocol | Do these stones fit in standard ovens? |
| 22:50.33 | elg | protocol: here's what I do: mix a dough, let it rest at least an hour. roll it or stretch it into any shape that will fit on your stone. spread marinara sauce on, put mozarella cheeze on, put pepperoni on, and bake on the stone at 500° |
| 22:50.41 | tensai | protocol: as long as you measure the oven first. my oven is actually pretty small and all my stones fit just fine. |
| 22:50.57 | elg | (you'll want a pizza peel to transfer it to the stone) |
| 22:51.17 | tensai | elg: metal or wooden peel, what's your preference? |
| 22:51.18 | elg | protocol: I just got me some unglazed tile for $1 a square (6 squares) |
| 22:51.23 | protocol | well, I have the peel... just no stone -_- |
| 22:51.44 | elg | protocol: works great, and you don't have tensai's problem of the pizza being too big :) |
| 22:51.53 | elg | and you just leave them in all the time |
| 22:51.56 | tensai | you could use a baking sheet, it's just not as cool |
| 22:52.18 | protocol | I bet. Baking sheet is too "Martha Stewart" for me. Rather go hardcore |
| 22:52.27 | elg | tensai: good question. I've never had metal, but assuming it doesn't make things harder to slide off I'd go with metal |
| 22:52.27 | tensai | elg: where did you get them? the people at home depot just stared at me when I asked. |
| 22:52.32 | elg | my wood one has warped |
| 22:52.46 | elg | a tile shop |
| 22:53.10 | tensai | elg: and you set them on the bottom or on a rack? |
| 22:53.10 | protocol | you guys make your dough from scratch? |
| 22:53.24 | elg | being warped hasn't harmed anything really |
| 22:53.29 | tensai | protocol: yup. it's the simplest dough around. |
| 22:53.30 | elg | plus, metal can be thinner, which can be handy |
| 22:53.43 | elg | protocol: http://hans.fugal.net/bread.pdf |
| 22:54.20 | protocol | thanks |
| 22:54.51 | tensai | 3 C flour, 1 T yeast, 1/2 t salt, 2 T oil, 1 C warm water. let rise 30-60 minutes. |
| 22:55.00 | elg | don't OD on the sauce. I remember when I started I used to add too much sauce |
| 22:55.11 | elg | makes things soggy |
| 22:55.43 | tensai | I'll tell you all a secret I learned working at pizza hut |
| 22:55.56 | protocol | But I like the sauce... |
| 22:56.21 | tensai | leave a 1/2 inch space around the edge free of sauce and cover well with cheese. the cheese adheres to the crust and keeps the contents from sliding off when cut. |
| 22:56.40 | elg | cool, I'll remember that |
| 22:56.50 | tensai | protocol: warm up a little and dip it like breadsticks |
| 22:56.52 | elg | what's the secret to pan pizza? |
| 22:57.05 | tensai | elg: lots and lots of grease |
| 22:57.07 | levi | Lots of grease? ;) |
| 22:57.16 | levi | Aw, beat me. |
| 22:57.23 | elg | that's what I thought, but what *kind*? |
| 22:57.29 | tensai | http://www.cookingforengineers.com/recipe/172/Pan-Pizza |
| 22:57.32 | elg | is the dough greasy, or the pan? |
| 22:57.44 | tensai | the pan. the dough is literally swimming in grease. |
| 22:58.17 | tensai | most of it stays in the pan though. the oil fries the bottom of the crust and gives you that crispy taste. |
| 22:58.45 | protocol | brb |
| 22:58.49 | tensai | PH uses some kind of neutral oil. not sure what type. I used canola and it works fine |
| 22:59.06 | elg | my wife will never let me make it regularly, but it'll be fun to try |
| 22:59.44 | tensai | that recipe is quite delicious. works great in 9" cake rounds. it's more complicated than on a stone, but delicious. |
| 22:59.48 | tensai | nice change of pace |
| 23:00.21 | elg | you don't need a heavy iron pan or anything? |
| 23:00.29 | tensai | nope |
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| 23:01.12 | tensai | the pizza hut pans aren't that much heavier than a cake pan. certainly not like a cast-iron pan. |
| 23:01.55 | sargun-palm | pizza hut is a subsidary of yum brands. |
| 23:02.32 | sargun-palm | also, the owners of taco bell, long john silver, and a&w restaurants |
| 23:03.09 | tensai | gotta run and make some no-knead bread |
| 23:06.10 | sargun-palm | bye |
| 23:06.19 | sargun-palm | don't die |
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