| 00:02.09 | herlo | this is a cool "powered by" sticker |
| 00:02.11 | herlo | or here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/MarketingCollateral |
| 00:02.13 | herlo | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/MarketingCollateral?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=FedoraStickers_F8_1.png |
| 00:02.42 | herlo | its the new Fedora 8 theme |
| 00:03.18 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 00:03.26 | decriptor_ | those stickers are sooo lame :P |
| 00:04.12 | herlo | ~lart decriptor_ |
| 00:04.12 | ibot | strangles decriptor_ with a 9-pole serial cable |
| 00:04.24 | herlo | ~squash decriptor_ |
| 00:04.29 | herlo | ~quash decriptor_ |
| 00:04.31 | decriptor_ | herlo: is that all you gots |
| 00:04.36 | herlo | ~whip decriptor_ |
| 00:04.36 | ibot | ACTION takes decriptor_ outside to be thoroughly whipped by herlo |
| 00:04.49 | decriptor_ | ~lart herlo |
| 00:04.49 | ibot | executes killall -TERM herlo |
| 00:04.52 | herlo | ~whallop decriptor_ |
| 00:04.52 | ibot | ACTION gets her boyfriend herlo to whallop decriptor_ until decriptor_ whimpers like a little girl! |
| 00:04.53 | decriptor_ | :P |
| 00:05.07 | herlo | ~cook decriptor_ |
| 00:05.07 | ibot | ACTION throws decriptor_ in a big pan with veggies inside and cooks decriptor_ on 350 for an hour |
| 00:05.07 | decriptor_ | you've been killalled :P |
| 00:05.23 | herlo | decriptor_: obviously you'll need to use -9 |
| 00:05.36 | herlo | decriptor_: I don't kill *that* easily |
| 00:05.54 | herlo | ~travolta decriptor_ |
| 00:05.54 | ibot | ACTION replaces decriptor_ with several craters in a multi-colored display of superior fire power |
| 00:06.20 | herlo | ~bacon decriptor_ |
| 00:06.24 | herlo | ahh, that'd be a good one |
| 00:06.46 | decriptor_ | ~kill herlo |
| 00:06.47 | ibot | ACTION shoots a excited pseudoelectron gun at herlo |
| 00:06.54 | decriptor_ | :D |
| 00:07.40 | herlo | ~bacon decriptor_ |
| 00:07.40 | ibot | ACTION goes Footloose on decriptor_, even though its illegal |
| 00:07.50 | decriptor_ | :P |
| 00:07.56 | herlo | decriptor_: thought you might like that one |
| 00:08.09 | decriptor_ | guess what some person came into the opensuse channel asking about fixing wireless on vista |
| 00:08.26 | herlo | ~lart vista |
| 00:08.26 | ibot | puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at vista |
| 00:08.38 | herlo | ~lart vista |
| 00:08.38 | ibot | hereby declares vista a troll |
| 00:08.48 | herlo | exactly! |
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| 00:20.49 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 00:25.37 | vontrapp | mmmm |
| 00:30.38 | Supaplex | make some for us to! |
| 00:33.06 | elg | come on down |
| 00:33.45 | elg | redbeard2 doesn't believe there's such a thing as a good chile relleno |
| 00:34.06 | vontrapp | shame |
| 00:34.07 | elg | and who can blame him. I live 40 miles from the green chile capital of the world and not one restaurant I've gone to yet has had a decent chile relleno |
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| 00:48.17 | findlay-w | Jayce^: that's cool |
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| 01:07.03 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=VANRYT@216.49.181.128) |
| 01:08.11 | levi | Yay, I have vmware guest tools running again. |
| 01:08.41 | levi | Dang it, the smorrey interview thing totally failed to spawn a long-running thread. |
| 01:11.31 | mrpull-x | levi: did you hear that vmware was going to open source the guest tools? |
| 01:19.03 | levi | mrpull-x: Yeah, and apparently they did. I downloaded them. Something didn't compile, so I just grabbed the tools from the latest server tarball. |
| 01:20.54 | mrpull-x | i went to vmworld last week |
| 01:21.26 | mrpull-x | the upcomming replacement for HA is really cool |
| 01:21.44 | *** join/#utah decriptor_ (n=decripto@166-70-62-130.ip.xmission.com) |
| 01:23.04 | nick125 | http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070918-sco-has-substantial-doubts-about-its-ability-to-survive.html |
| 01:23.07 | nick125 | \o/ |
| 01:29.31 | herlo | http://www.myconfinedspace.com/1999/11/30/internet-browsers/internetbrowsers/ |
| 01:29.32 | *** join/#utah ccjoe-n800 (n=ccjoe@dhcp68.emcb.utah.edu) |
| 01:29.36 | herlo | ^_^ |
| 01:32.01 | nick125 | I hope novell takes SCO for every single cent. |
| 01:32.30 | herlo | nick125: they'll file ch7... |
| 01:32.44 | nick125 | Either way, I hope SCO goes out of business. for good. |
| 01:34.53 | herlo | http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html - just as hilarious |
| 01:34.56 | brac | [Why BSD is superior to Linux] |
| 01:35.11 | herlo | not that I necessarily agree...but |
| 01:35.35 | nick125 | SCO is going to be delisted from NASDAQ |
| 01:35.40 | nick125 | hahaaha |
| 01:39.56 | herlo | wow, I'm good tonight! - http://www.diditforthelulz.com/attowned.jpg |
| 01:40.14 | nick125 | old :p |
| 01:40.19 | nick125 | But still funny |
| 01:42.02 | herlo | yeah, but I've never seen it |
| 02:14.41 | findlay-w | ~quote scox |
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| 02:28.46 | atoponce | i need a fast factoring algorithm for large numbers |
| 02:29.03 | atoponce | counter % n == 0 ain't cutting it |
| 02:29.10 | atoponce | any ideas? |
| 02:29.44 | Supap|ex | faster monkies |
| 02:29.58 | atoponce | they're on strike |
| 02:30.07 | atoponce | ~blame the union |
| 02:30.08 | ibot | ACTION blames the union (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 02:30.26 | levi | atoponce: I included a link to a text that talked about factoring algorithms in my comment on your factoring blog entry. |
| 02:30.42 | levi | And, yes, an exponential algorithm is definitely not going to cut it. |
| 02:31.02 | atoponce | levi: the palindrome one? |
| 02:31.26 | atoponce | oh. the prime number |
| 02:31.38 | levi | Oh, yeah, it was primes you were doing. |
| 02:31.59 | levi | The text I linked to probably talks about factoring, too. |
| 02:32.32 | atoponce | i looked at the pollard rho algorithm, but that doesn't always guarantee factors? |
| 02:32.53 | levi | IIRC, it was about cryptography. |
| 02:33.00 | atoponce | yeah |
| 02:33.07 | atoponce | looking at it now |
| 02:34.06 | levi | I don't know any particular factoring algorithms, but you aren't going to find any that are exceptionally efficient, obviously. |
| 02:34.06 | atoponce | heh. the pages i need are not part of that book review |
| 02:34.15 | atoponce | of course |
| 02:34.20 | atoponce | rsa would break, iirc |
| 02:34.27 | levi | Yeah. |
| 02:34.53 | atoponce | i just need something fast enough to get past problem 12 on project euler... |
| 02:34.54 | levi | Unless you get someone to build you a large, stable quantum computer. |
| 02:35.03 | levi | Then you could run Shor's algorithm. |
| 02:35.09 | atoponce | i read about that one |
| 02:35.33 | atoponce | i think that's a bit much for what i'm going after. :) |
| 02:36.07 | levi | But that's not going to happen any time soon, and I think there are other public key cryptosystems that wouldn't be affected by it. |
| 02:36.25 | levi | So it wouldn't be the end of the security world, either. |
| 02:36.49 | atoponce | heh |
| 02:38.33 | levi | Looks like the General Number Field Sieve is the fastest known factoring algorithm. |
| 02:39.11 | levi | Good luck understanding it. :) |
| 02:39.33 | atoponce | yeah... saw that one too |
| 02:39.56 | levi | "I wrote this library when I finally managed to understand the ins and outs of factoring large integers using advanced sieving methods (it took years)." |
| 02:40.00 | atoponce | the only one i could get my mind around was pollard rho, and that's not guaranteed to return factors |
| 02:40.42 | levi | You looked at the wikipedia article, I assume? |
| 02:40.52 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 02:41.01 | atoponce | that and a few other sites |
| 02:41.05 | levi | It's a hard problem, so most of the non-trivial solutions are going to be difficult to wrap your brain around. |
| 02:41.22 | elg | -chat it's a |
| 02:41.22 | brac | it's a møøse! |
| 02:44.13 | atoponce | ok. here's another question then: |
| 02:44.29 | atoponce | can i tell how many factors are in a number without finding the factors themselves? |
| 02:44.41 | atoponce | i don't think so |
| 02:44.51 | atoponce | but worth the shot anyway |
| 02:44.59 | levi | I don't think so either. |
| 02:45.08 | levi | But I don't really know. |
| 02:45.18 | levi | My math-fu is weak. |
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| 03:01.11 | *** join/#utah klys (n=admini@128.187.174.213) |
| 03:01.36 | klys | http://www.lib.byu.edu/ |
| 03:01.37 | brac | [Harold B. Lee Library] |
| 03:01.40 | klys | suggestions welcome |
| 03:02.46 | levi | What, you want a magazine to read? |
| 03:02.53 | klys | for you |
| 03:02.59 | levi | For me? |
| 03:03.02 | klys | I'd do all the work of course |
| 03:03.39 | levi | Maybe find an IEEE Computer Society journal. |
| 03:03.56 | klys | ok, pick up a call number and I'm on my way |
| 03:05.10 | Supap|ex | note to self. tape box bottom before placing stuff in it. |
| 03:07.37 | levi | klys: ISSN: 1045-9219 |
| 03:07.40 | klys | cool |
| 03:07.54 | levi | IEEE Transactions on Parallel & Distributed Systems |
| 03:08.00 | levi | knock yourself out. :) |
| 03:08.01 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 03:10.15 | klys | http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/servlet/opac?punumber=71 |
| 03:10.19 | brac | [IEEE Xplore: Parallel and Distributed Systems, IEEE Transactions on] |
| 03:10.27 | klys | url resource only, not printed here |
| 03:10.42 | klys | let me know if you can't get the url |
| 03:11.47 | levi | You should have full text access to it there. I probably have access to it here, too, but only if I go through the UVSC proxy. |
| 03:12.30 | levi | I'm not sure what the deal is here. Am I suggesting something for you to read, or what? |
| 03:13.00 | klys | like, something in print? |
| 03:13.14 | klys | so as to summarize it and chat a bit |
| 03:13.14 | Supap|ex | http://digg.com/environment/Lights_Out_Utah |
| 03:14.00 | levi | klys: Beats me. I'm heading home, anyway. |
| 03:14.53 | levi | I won't be turning my lights off, either. |
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| 03:29.00 | elg | Supap|ex: all I see is lights off digg |
| 03:29.22 | Supap|ex | that's all I saw to |
| 03:30.16 | Zelut | can anyone tell me the command/method of having selinux rebuild the proper context for files system wide? |
| 03:30.34 | Supap|ex | two clicks, and http://www.lightsoffamerica.com/ viola. |
| 03:30.36 | Zelut | ie; I installed a machine without selinux and have later added it, and the contexts are all wrong. |
| 03:30.37 | brac | [] |
| 03:31.12 | elg | what a dumb idea |
| 03:32.06 | elg | ie; |
| 03:32.12 | elg | ei; I |
| 03:32.14 | elg | ie; I |
| 03:32.22 | elg | oh, it's the url |
| 03:47.35 | Supap|ex | -chat about the url |
| 03:47.35 | brac | the url though |
| 04:08.09 | harleypig | Does anyone know of an equivalent to aptitude in gentoo? |
| 04:09.28 | vontrapp | -chat about aptitude |
| 04:09.28 | vontrapp | harleypig: emerge aptitude? |
| 04:09.32 | brac | aptitude had |
| 04:09.43 | klys | emerge, then, is it |
| 04:09.54 | harleypig | vontrapp: That's a better response than #gentoo gave me. :D |
| 04:12.05 | vontrapp | -chat about aptitude in gentoo |
| 04:12.05 | vontrapp | -lart lag |
| 04:12.05 | brac | incorrect usage, ask for help using 'brac: help chat' |
| 04:12.08 | Supap|ex | harleypig: for what function? selecting packages? installing? dependency resolution? deleting unused packages on removal? cute little text games? |
| 04:12.29 | harleypig | all of the above ... |
| 04:13.41 | harleypig | I'm just looking for a tui that'll allow me to browse packages, etc. |
| 04:13.49 | harleypig | I'm aware of, and use, the cmd line tools ... |
| 04:14.18 | vontrapp | apt-get moo |
| 04:14.25 | vontrapp | super cow powers! |
| 04:14.31 | harleypig | :] |
| 04:25.42 | vontrapp | -lart elg |
| 04:25.52 | vontrapp | those camel spiders... |
| 04:27.38 | vontrapp | *shiver* |
| 04:28.23 | klys | is there a less ignorant form of irc? |
| 04:29.38 | klys | or, right, nntp |
| 04:34.12 | vontrapp | yaml gurus? |
| 04:34.57 | vontrapp | pastie doesn't do yaml!! |
| 04:35.00 | vontrapp | crap |
| 04:35.25 | vontrapp | http://pastie.caboo.se/98914 |
| 04:35.36 | vontrapp | tis rss filters |
| 04:36.00 | vontrapp | as you can tell, there's a lot of repetition |
| 04:36.00 | vontrapp | i want to keep it DRY |
| 04:36.00 | vontrapp | advicE? |
| 04:48.02 | harleypig | use a poncho? |
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| 05:11.51 | decriptor_ | question to those that like assembly, the few?, where do I start? |
| 05:12.55 | harleypig | .code |
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| 05:13.25 | *** join/#utah harleypig (n=harleypi@66.236.68.4.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 05:13.36 | harleypig | That's what I get for being a smart ass. |
| 05:14.12 | harleypig | http://asm.sourceforge.net/ |
| 05:14.13 | brac | [Linux Assembly] |
| 05:14.18 | harleypig | Is a good place to start |
| 05:15.17 | decriptor_ | I've heard about nasm and yasm are they similar? |
| 05:15.27 | harleypig | or was ... looks like they're looking for a new maintainer. |
| 05:15.30 | decriptor_ | in this case I have to do the code that I want on a mac server |
| 05:16.16 | harleypig | well, the concepts are the same ... but I don't know of any sites specific to mac assembly programming. |
| 05:16.51 | harleypig | as far as nasm and yasm ... I don't have any experience with yasm |
| 05:16.53 | decriptor_ | it has nasm on it, but I image that it would be a little different, its similar to freebsd or whatever its based on |
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| 05:18.32 | harleypig | Yeah, the closer you get to metal, the more specific the language has to become ... otoh, asm has become rather ... |
| 05:18.43 | harleypig | homogeneous? |
| 05:18.49 | harleypig | not sure that's the right word |
| 05:19.54 | synic | /test |
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| 05:21.07 | levi | decriptor_: You might try looking for 'Programming from the Ground Up' |
| 05:21.22 | decriptor_ | google for it? |
| 05:21.41 | levi | decriptor_: it's an online text that teaches programming via x86 assembly in Linux. |
| 05:21.51 | levi | So yes, google it. :) |
| 05:21.51 | decriptor_ | oh cool |
| 05:22.00 | decriptor_ | since there is no other way :P |
| 05:22.33 | levi | Well, there are plenty of other ways. |
| 05:22.39 | harleypig | http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/pgubook/ |
| 05:22.42 | harleypig | that one? |
| 05:23.09 | levi | At some point, though, you've got to learn the real hardware/software interface. |
| 05:23.16 | levi | harleypig: I think that's it. |
| 05:23.56 | levi | x86 assembly only bares a small resemblance to what actually goes on inside the chip these days, though. |
| 05:24.02 | levi | bears? |
| 05:24.05 | levi | Whatever. |
| 05:28.44 | levi | The main reason to learn asm programming these days is to teach you how the hardware, operating system, and programming languages interact. |
| 05:29.05 | levi | Stuff like memory layout, stack manipulation, system calls, etc. |
| 05:35.08 | *** join/#utah decriptor_ (n=decripto@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 05:35.47 | decriptor_ | I've been interested in that stuff |
| 05:35.52 | decriptor_ | I'm going into computer engineering |
| 05:36.03 | levi | Cool. :) |
| 05:36.05 | decriptor_ | this is for an operating system theory class |
| 05:36.13 | levi | Oh, nice. |
| 05:36.16 | levi | What school? |
| 05:36.25 | decriptor_ | I was going to originally do EE, but like the programming too UVSC |
| 05:36.38 | levi | Who's teaching it? |
| 05:36.49 | decriptor_ | the project is to implement 3 disk algorithms for a simulation |
| 05:36.51 | decriptor_ | durney |
| 05:36.56 | levi | I got a bum deal when I took OS theory there. had a crappy adjunct professor. |
| 05:37.24 | decriptor_ | who was it |
| 05:37.30 | decriptor_ | do you remember |
| 05:37.32 | levi | Brockbank |
| 05:37.48 | levi | Mr. Fraud |
| 05:38.49 | decriptor_ | no sure I knew of him |
| 05:39.14 | decriptor_ | once it becomes UVU I think we will be able to avoid some of that |
| 05:39.14 | levi | He was teaching finance before he got dragged into CS. |
| 05:39.23 | decriptor_ | how's that work |
| 05:39.35 | levi | Well, he had done OS programming years ago for IBM. |
| 05:39.39 | decriptor_ | finance and OS theory aren't exactly the same thing |
| 05:39.44 | decriptor_ | ah |
| 05:40.23 | levi | Somehow they'd booked more sections than they had teachers, and they grabbed him at the last minute. |
| 05:41.35 | decriptor_ | that sucks |
| 05:41.35 | levi | Anyway, he did an awful job and just about all my classmates dropped it, even waaaay into the course when it wouldn't normally be possible anymore. |
| 05:41.39 | decriptor_ | I hate when they do that |
| 05:42.11 | levi | Those of us who remained were already somewhat familar with the material, so we practically taught the class. |
| 05:42.13 | decriptor_ | that's sad since the person was a programmer at IBM |
| 05:43.00 | klys | wow, decriptor_: do you have nasm, yasm, or masm32? |
| 05:43.04 | levi | Well, he'd been running securities fraud schemes or something for the last 20 years, so he probably hadn't thought about operating systems since the invention of the PC. ;) |
| 05:43.35 | levi | The semester after I had him, there was an article in the school paper about his fraud conviction. |
| 05:44.05 | decriptor_ | klys: ? what do you mean |
| 05:44.13 | levi | He probably started teaching when the SEC froze his accounts and he went to trial. |
| 05:44.23 | decriptor_ | oh |
| 05:44.26 | decriptor_ | that guy |
| 05:44.38 | decriptor_ | stupid |
| 05:44.38 | klys | decriptor_: I can see that you haven't done this before. get nasm >= v0.98 and I'll have a look at http://www.x86.org, hold on |
| 05:44.56 | decriptor_ | oh |
| 05:48.19 | klys | http://www.marathon.ru/~fedor/doc/osdesign/pmode/386intel.zip |
| 05:48.32 | klys | or anywhere that has 386intel.zip |
| 05:48.43 | klys | gtg, the library is closing |
| 05:48.56 | decriptor_ | cool thanks |
| 05:49.06 | klys | np man, good luck! |
| 05:49.16 | klys | ciao |
| 05:49.17 | decriptor_ | thanks |
| 05:49.18 | *** part/#utah klys (n=admini@128.187.174.213) |
| 05:49.19 | decriptor_ | ciao |
| 05:50.23 | levi | http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07262/818671-85.stm |
| 05:50.24 | brac | [CMU professor gives his last lesson on life] |
| 05:53.40 | decriptor_ | levi: do you see my messages? |
| 05:53.53 | decriptor_ | this nick isn't registered so some can't see my replies |
| 05:55.09 | levi | Nope, didn't see them. No one can see your replies if your nick isn't registered. |
| 05:56.24 | decriptor_ | I can't switch my nick in this program for some reason |
| 05:58.48 | *** part/#utah decriptor_ (n=decripto@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 06:03.26 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 06:04.15 | decriptor | that's better |
| 06:18.24 | Supap|ex | ~lart yesterday |
| 06:18.24 | ibot | hereby declares yesterday a troll |
| 06:18.43 | Supap|ex | that's insult, not lart. |
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| 14:21.33 | tensai | elg: chile relleno... that's the mushy thing that's covered in too much sauce? wait, that describes all the food at most mexican places. |
| 14:22.40 | goozbach | chile relleno is AWESOME! |
| 14:22.45 | goozbach | nummers even |
| 14:23.47 | jsmith | tensai: Not if it's done right! |
| 14:24.14 | tensai | jsmith: clearly that's the distinction. I haven't found any yet. |
| 14:24.37 | jsmith | tensai: Well... since you live in a town that's really known for it's abundance of good food... |
| 14:24.42 | elg | tensai: if it's done right it's like battered&fried fish, but with a gooey cheese-filled chile instead of fish |
| 14:25.24 | tensai | elg: I bet the fish appreciates that |
| 14:25.35 | vontrapp | shouldn't even have sauce |
| 14:25.48 | vontrapp | i don't konw why anyone puts sauce on rellenos |
| 14:25.50 | elg | you can put an enchilada sauce on it |
| 14:26.07 | tensai | elg: can I put a pint of sauce on it? |
| 14:26.15 | elg | you can put motor oil on it if you want |
| 14:27.14 | vontrapp | me eats a chilecheese bagel |
| 14:27.25 | vontrapp | cream chease mixed with salsa verde and chili's and cheese |
| 14:27.36 | vontrapp | now that's nummmey |
| 14:27.55 | tensai | I'm just ranting. seems that most mexican places, that I've been to anyway, drench their food in sauce, like they're trying to hide the flavor. |
| 14:28.09 | vontrapp | they are |
| 14:28.22 | vontrapp | however, el azteca's drenches the mole in sauce |
| 14:28.29 | vontrapp | which is very good, mole sauce is the best |
| 14:28.46 | elg | second only to gopher sauce |
| 14:28.50 | vontrapp | yeah, mole is the sauce, you know what i mean |
| 14:29.05 | tensai | elg: made from real gophers? |
| 14:29.12 | elg | and their fur |
| 14:29.18 | vontrapp | is that like go4wood? |
| 14:29.27 | vontrapp | mmm fiber |
| 14:29.41 | elg | they don't spend as much time in tunnels as moles do, which gives them a little extra flavour |
| 14:34.53 | elg | i saw an interesting pseudo chile relleno recipe |
| 14:35.19 | elg | chiles, stuff with cheese (as normal), but instead of batter, wrap them in won ton skins and fry |
| 14:35.32 | elg | for when batter is just too messy |
| 14:35.44 | tensai | elg: what kind of batter is it? |
| 14:35.53 | elg | egg batter |
| 14:36.03 | elg | but I'm still searching for the perfect batter |
| 14:36.16 | elg | gonna get ABs first book from the library and study up |
| 14:36.48 | elg | the one I had at $celebrated_restaurant the other day wasn't even fried, it was just pan fried, like a fried egg |
| 14:37.23 | elg | and that's basically what it was, a boring chile stuffed in not enough cheese wrapped in scrambled egg without any seasoning |
| 14:37.30 | elg | sick sick sick |
| 14:37.57 | jsmith | That sounds as bad as the food in tensai's neck of the woods |
| 14:37.57 | elg | the ideal chile is hot enough to make your scalp sweat, but mild enough to actually eat |
| 14:38.28 | elg | jsmith: yes, it's an astonishing phenomenon. I must have tried a dozen different restaurants' chiles rellenos here |
| 14:38.35 | elg | and haven't had a decent one yet |
| 14:38.39 | elg | except when I make my own |
| 14:40.11 | tensai | elg: what chile do you use? |
| 14:40.35 | elg | new mexico green, of course |
| 14:40.47 | elg | closely related to anaheim, which is usually milder |
| 14:40.57 | elg | but the mexicans use poblano a lot |
| 14:41.08 | elg | so if you can't get green chile you can aim for poblano |
| 14:41.31 | elg | but really, any chile that you think stands on its own with cheese |
| 14:43.26 | elg | i'm debating whether to blog it now or wait until I get the ideal batter figured out |
| 14:43.38 | jsmith | Work on the batter. |
| 14:43.41 | tensai | speaking of chiles, I ate a whole fresh jalapeno the other day and boy was it spicy. that hurt a little. |
| 14:43.49 | tensai | elg: what kind of cheese? |
| 14:43.57 | elg | monterey jack |
| 14:44.04 | jsmith | I prefer pepper-jack myself |
| 14:44.06 | elg | queso oaxaca if you're in mexico |
| 14:44.16 | elg | colby jack or pepper jack would do in a pinch |
| 14:44.26 | elg | but if your chile is spicy enough you shouldn't need the pepper jack :) |
| 14:44.42 | elg | although, since it can be hard to get sufficiently spicy green chile outside of NM, that might be a good compensation |
| 14:45.16 | jsmith | Yeah... poblano + pepper-jack works in a pinch |
| 14:46.26 | elg | mozarella works in a deep pinch |
| 14:46.58 | jsmith | Ouch... Might as well skip the chili and make mozarella sticks |
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| 14:58.59 | bachisanerd | anybody else having problems with gaim/pidgin and AIM this morning? |
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| 15:07.51 | jsmith | bachisanerd: Not I. |
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| 15:12.08 | goozbach | note to self: when running a remote command via ssh, it helps to supply a username |
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| 15:29.22 | goozbach | zenoss is nice in theory, but geez it takes forever to get your head around how to monitor stuff |
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| 15:33.36 | jsmith | goozbach: Good... I'll let you figure it out and then teach me |
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| 15:35.22 | Mecworks | hm |
| 15:35.36 | Mecworks | Who's been programming iBot with stupid things. |
| 15:36.08 | findlay-w | ~onjoin Mecworks Mecworks r0x0rz d00d |
| 15:36.08 | ibot | ok, findlay-w |
| 15:36.14 | Mecworks | :) |
| 15:37.04 | Mecworks | ~convert 300 feet to barleycorns |
| 15:38.01 | findlay-w | ~convert elvis to solar masses |
| 15:38.06 | bachisanerd | ~convert 1 inch to barleycorns |
| 15:38.11 | findlay-w | ~convert elvis to kilograms |
| 15:38.12 | jsmith | ~convert 300 feet to rods |
| 15:38.47 | Mecworks | ~convert 18.1818 rods to barley corns |
| 15:38.51 | Mecworks | ~convert 18.1818 rods to barleycorns |
| 15:39.11 | findlay-w | and here I thought all our measurments were going to be based on this Planck dude |
| 15:39.21 | bachisanerd | done |
| 15:39.37 | findlay-w | nope |
| 15:40.08 | Mecworks | If work were measured in expenditures over distance of bareleycorns, it would be very measuerable. |
| 15:40.48 | bachisanerd | ~convert 1 barlycorn to lightyears |
| 15:41.28 | bachisanerd | ~convert 1 barleycorn to lightyears |
| 15:42.25 | goozbach | meh, we should measure everthing in smoots |
| 15:42.29 | findlay-w | ~convert 1 yoctobarleycorn to yottaparsecs |
| 15:42.45 | findlay-w | ~convert 1 yoctomicron to yottaparsecs |
| 15:42.46 | goozbach | ~convert 1 barleycorn to smoots |
| 15:42.52 | goozbach | ~convert 1 barleycorn to smoot |
| 15:42.59 | goozbach | ibot doen'st know smoots |
| 15:43.03 | goozbach | ~smoot |
| 15:43.04 | ibot | somebody said smoot was a unit of distance, 1.7 meters long. Used to measure the Harvard Bridge by MIT students. |
| 15:43.13 | findlay-w | aha, patch time! |
| 15:43.19 | goozbach | see ibot you do know smoots |
| 15:43.49 | findlay-w | goozbach: ibot uses the convert module on CPAN |
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| 15:56.54 | levi | CD shrinkwrapping has to be the most annoying packaging ever. |
| 15:57.18 | *** join/#utah decriptor (n=sshaw@137.65.56.34) |
| 15:57.38 | Tene | I'm probably more annoyed by the omghuge hard plastic shells on very small electronic items, such as SD cards. |
| 15:58.29 | fozzmoo | It's theft deterent |
| 15:58.48 | levi | And they wonder why no one wants to buy this crap anymore. |
| 15:58.49 | fozzmoo | CD shrinkwrapper, OTOH, is just annoying. |
| 15:59.08 | Jayce^ | the plastic shells are worse than the CD wrappings... |
| 15:59.21 | findlay-w | I'm a cd shrinkwrap unwrapping expert |
| 15:59.48 | levi | I can usually unwrap shrinkwrap okay, but this particular CD is very tightly wrapped. |
| 15:59.57 | findlay-w | use the force |
| 16:00.10 | Jayce^ | bought some razor-knifes the other day.. I had to use my old razor to get the darn things out, still took a long time |
| 16:00.16 | fozzmoo | hee hee. |
| 16:00.46 | Mecworks | Hey, in openSuse 10.2, I don't see the Kicker dictionary applet. Does anyone know where I can get it? |
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| 16:00.54 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 16:01.23 | fozzmoo | Mecworks: It's part of kdenetwork-extras in F7 |
| 16:01.31 | fozzmoo | So, maybe look for something similar. |
| 16:01.35 | levi | I had to poke a hole in the stupid wrap with the only sharp thing I could find handy, a staple remover. |
| 16:01.56 | fozzmoo | Oooh. Staple Removers... the precursor to the Leatherman. |
| 16:01.58 | dataw0lf | I always cut a line across the top with my canine |
| 16:03.49 | mrpull-x | dataw0lf: does he get a doggy snack when you are done? |
| 16:04.15 | dataw0lf | har |
| 16:04.20 | dataw0lf | a scooby snack |
| 16:04.21 | levi | WTF? The computer drive doesn't read it. |
| 16:05.41 | levi | Oh, yeah it does. |
| 16:07.09 | Jayce^ | w00t, delisting sco on the 27th |
| 16:07.29 | findlay-w | ~quote scox |
| 16:09.42 | sontek | Mecworks: in 10.3 I see kdeaccesibility4-kicker |
| 16:11.36 | Mecworks | hm |
| 16:18.05 | sontek | Mecworks: I found that with zypper se kicker |
| 16:24.27 | ^Migs^ | http://www.tinyurl.com/3bnwn2 |
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| 16:36.14 | findlay-w | ~weather kpvu |
| 16:36.28 | sjansen | ~weather moon |
| 16:36.45 | findlay-w | there's no ICAO airport on the moon yet, silly |
| 16:36.46 | sjansen | NASA can't find the moon?! That's not good. |
| 16:37.08 | dataw0lf | south hollywood, small back alley set |
| 16:37.16 | sjansen | heh |
| 16:37.34 | dataw0lf | ;-) |
| 16:38.10 | Mecworks_ | Found it. Kdict is in the kdenetwork3-query on OpenSuse 10.2 |
| 16:38.19 | RyanE | unfortunately, there's not an ICAO airport on the moon lot, either. :( |
| 16:51.42 | goozbach | sjansen: I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say, it's cold, and dry on the moon |
| 16:52.54 | tensai | with no wind and clear skies |
| 16:52.56 | RyanE | That depends on which side you're on. The dark side, cold. The light side, considerably warmer. |
| 16:53.15 | RyanE | i.e. 260F on the sun-side., -280F on the dark side. |
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| 17:42.00 | findlay-w | but you don't know the power of the dark side |
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| 18:59.04 | brasto | what does the generics table do that virtmaps do not do? |
| 18:59.29 | brasto | above is a sendmail question :) |
| 19:00.08 | Sargun | -runs away- |
| 19:00.12 | Sargun | cause you much pain? |
| 19:00.15 | Sargun | and suffering? |
| 19:00.26 | Sargun | Why would you use sendmail? |
| 19:00.34 | Sargun | so you go blind while configuring it? |
| 19:01.58 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 19:07.24 | Keighvin | You know, that's how IE won the first browser war. |
| 19:08.23 | Sargun | install postfix? |
| 19:08.51 | ^Migs^ | but that actually requires...INSTALLING something |
| 19:08.54 | tristanbob | I forgot how ugly and outdated the Windows XP installer is |
| 19:11.10 | brasto | I'm not sure how a postfix install, or any other sendmail replacement would effect my production vps server. |
| 19:13.27 | Sargun | heh |
| 19:13.32 | Sargun | its not that bad. |
| 19:13.43 | Sargun | It wouldn't. |
| 19:14.21 | Sargun | brasto, What distro? |
| 19:15.04 | brasto | freebsd 6.2 - found the info on what genericstable does |
| 19:15.09 | brasto | it's for reverse mapping |
| 19:15.21 | brasto | virtusertable maps email addresses to users |
| 19:15.31 | brasto | genericstable maps users to email addresses |
| 19:16.02 | brasto | kinda dumb if you ask me since it creates a potential problem when you have two locations you have to update with the same information... |
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| 19:24.51 | beandog | stupid gmail |
| 19:24.53 | beandog | spam-- |
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| 19:40.53 | goozbach | the interenet is broken |
| 19:40.58 | goozbach | who did it |
| 19:40.59 | goozbach | ? |
| 19:46.26 | decriptor | is there a utah php irc channel |
| 19:46.27 | decriptor | ? |
| 19:47.01 | vontrapp | #crap? |
| 19:47.15 | vontrapp | don't know if that's utah |
| 19:47.55 | decriptor | :P |
| 19:48.01 | decriptor | its not for me :D |
| 19:48.10 | decriptor | its for this guy I know :D |
| 19:48.38 | Tene | decriptor: if there is one, it's probably at #uphpu |
| 19:48.45 | Tene | I've heard that group name before. |
| 19:49.13 | decriptor | yup that did it |
| 19:51.37 | vontrapp | yay, somebody sent a 4.5M email with a flier for todays colloquim to the ENTIRE CS department (faculty,students,grads) |
| 19:52.11 | vontrapp | it's also dated Sep 14 |
| 19:52.16 | vontrapp | but i only just now got it |
| 19:52.21 | sontek | #uphpu |
| 19:52.27 | sontek | but stay away from php! ;) |
| 19:58.42 | decriptor | sontek: no worries |
| 19:58.48 | decriptor | its for a friend |
| 19:59.00 | decriptor | you know that I won't go down that road |
| 19:59.02 | decriptor | :P |
| 19:59.19 | decriptor | friends don't let friends program in php |
| 19:59.21 | decriptor | :D |
| 19:59.30 | decriptor | I'm causing all kind of trouble today |
| 19:59.42 | sontek | :D |
| 20:00.44 | decriptor | I went in there and started talking about perl :D |
| 20:02.12 | herlo | why does everyone hate php so? The people there are so kind and loving |
| 20:02.55 | herlo | plus php is the programming language that's easiest to learn. Sure, it has its problems, but what language doesn't? |
| 20:03.18 | herlo | Is your language so high and mightily perfect that you can cast the first stone ? |
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| 20:04.49 | decriptor | herlo: absolutely, c is so much better. Anyone that's programmed in c knows :P |
| 20:05.58 | beandog | herlo, its just the new kid on the block |
| 20:06.13 | beandog | but, there also some pretty stupid design decisions. |
| 20:06.34 | beandog | I still like it though |
| 20:06.38 | beandog | but Id rather know C++ |
| 20:07.31 | decriptor | goozbach: I had that last night |
| 20:08.21 | sontek | herlo: I've already told you why its bad |
| 20:08.25 | sontek | herlo: and yes my language is :D |
| 20:09.38 | sontek | herlo: its all design decisions, its juts a nasty language to work with |
| 20:10.41 | sontek | herlo: you can't learn that naming standards or know a certain function will be in a namespace, because neither exist in the language |
| 20:11.09 | sontek | and its a bad language to learn with because you learn bad habits |
| 20:18.33 | beandog | meh |
| 20:18.35 | beandog | I disagree with that |
| 20:18.36 | beandog | but whatever. |
| 20:18.46 | beandog | ASP is a truly horrible language to start with |
| 20:18.58 | beandog | but I think once you move onto a "better" language, youre just going to learn how to do things better anyway |
| 20:19.25 | beandog | besides, Id say good code is always going to be the exception, and not the rule, regardless of the language. |
| 20:22.53 | goozbach | wanna know what one of the worst smells ever is? |
| 20:22.59 | goozbach | rotten coffee water |
| 20:25.16 | sontek | ASP is a terrible first web development experience because it changes the complete life cycle of the page |
| 20:25.26 | sontek | goozbach: its true |
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| 20:35.49 | Tene | herlo: I disagree with your evaluation of the community. |
| 20:36.38 | Tene | I consider teaching that building sql through literal string interpolation is a good idea to be an attack, not friendliness. |
| 20:37.19 | Tene | If someone walks up to you, smiles and speaks kindly, and tries to convince you that it's awesome to cut your own hands off, is that friendliness? |
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| 20:42.40 | ^Migs^ | depends on how friendly you say it |
| 20:43.24 | ^Migs^ | I could be the leader of a cult that promotes self-mutilation. It's still friendliness, even though you may disagree with what I'm saying, but that's okay, because you're welcome to disagree. |
| 20:44.02 | Tene | You'd still be upset if they convinced your child to join, wouldn't you? |
| 20:45.03 | ^Migs^ | that's different, because a minor I am responsible for would be involved, and I am NOT Having no stinkin' brainwashin' corn-pickin' robe-wearin' kool-aid-drink' cultist tell MY kids what to believe. That's MY job. |
| 20:52.33 | jsmith | ^Migs^: You calling me a cultist? |
| 20:53.41 | ^Migs^ | if the shoe fits... |
| 20:53.56 | beandog | I want a robe |
| 20:53.58 | beandog | with kool-aid |
| 20:54.41 | ^Migs^ | that does sound kind of cool, actually |
| 20:55.12 | ^Migs^ | kool-aid has too much sugar, so I can do without that, but a really comfortable awesome-looking robe I could go for |
| 20:55.18 | beandog | where do you get a robe anyway |
| 20:55.22 | beandog | a good culty robe |
| 20:55.23 | ^Migs^ | I don't even know! |
| 20:55.30 | beandog | yah |
| 20:55.33 | beandog | sounds comfy |
| 20:55.35 | ^Migs^ | Monks 'R' Us? |
| 20:55.44 | ^Migs^ | I mean, I have a bathrobe, but it doesn't have a hood |
| 20:55.58 | beandog | the world really hasnt improved that much since the middle ages. |
| 20:56.00 | ^Migs^ | I don't know if I'd want a pullover robe or a wraparound-and-tie robe |
| 20:58.39 | Tene | I'd go with the wrap-and-tie |
| 21:12.42 | levi | Yeah, probably easier to relieve yourself with a wrap-and-tie. |
| 21:15.43 | goozbach | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:15.59 | levi | You've got to hike it up, though. |
| 21:16.03 | levi | And hold it up. |
| 21:16.04 | goozbach | you just have to expose more of yourself to relive yourself |
| 21:16.25 | levi | With a split front, you just let it hang open. |
| 21:20.09 | sjansen | Isn't technology wonderful? How did humanity survive before developing the ability to quickly discuss and disperse such critical wisdom? |
| 21:31.35 | herlo | Tene: you are up in the night. People in the php community *do* know what they are talking about. I find that people harshly judge php for its failings even if it doesn't fit your needs... PHP does have many good qualities... |
| 21:33.36 | Jayce^ | php, training wheels without the bike |
| 21:33.48 | Jayce^ | jsmith-away, you rock |
| 21:35.09 | levi | herlo, resident PHP apologist. I guess every group needs one, lest the anti-php folks get complacent. |
| 21:36.42 | herlo | How am I an apologist? |
| 21:36.53 | herlo | I apologized for nothing about php. I like php and hate it at the same time... |
| 21:37.56 | levi | Being an apologist doesn't mean apologizing. |
| 21:38.14 | levi | It means you're standing up for points under attack. |
| 21:38.37 | sjansen | ~dict apologist |
| 21:38.57 | herlo | levi: I obviously didn't know that |
| 21:39.48 | ^Migs^ | knowing is half the battle |
| 21:40.19 | sjansen | Bother, I missed a chance to slam PHP. |
| 21:40.52 | levi | sjansen: You must be getting complacent! Need to keep that anti-PHP ammo sharp! |
| 21:40.56 | Tene | sjansen: here, I'll give you another. |
| 21:41.07 | Tene | herlo: what good qualities? |
| 21:41.19 | ^Migs^ | gosh, I love PHP |
| 21:41.20 | ^Migs^ | there you go |
| 21:41.22 | Jayce^ | sjansen, nah, the opportunity is always there |
| 21:41.35 | sjansen | Let's put things in this light: I don't much like PHP or Python. However, I respect Python because it has developed a community that does a decent job of teaching new developers good habits. An explicit goal of Python is making writing bad code hard. |
| 21:42.00 | ^Migs^ | that begs the question. Is a language responsible for the community tha follows it? |
| 21:42.07 | sjansen | ^Migs^: yes |
| 21:42.10 | beandog | I think the real issue here is that nobody is going to change anyone's mind, so give up. :) |
| 21:42.12 | Jayce^ | and this from somebody who really hates a lot of the python community-attitude :) |
| 21:42.30 | ^Migs^ | Why? |
| 21:42.33 | sjansen | A good designer knows that form follows function. |
| 21:43.03 | ^Migs^ | Just because PHP doesn't always require good form doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it. Is it the fault of PHP that people don't know good form? |
| 21:43.33 | sjansen | PHP has historically done the opposite. They made things easy with no thought for doing things correctly. (register globals anyone?!) |
| 21:43.38 | fungus | If we apply that logic to Perl as well, it sucks just as bad. |
| 21:43.50 | fungus | use warnings and strict isn't on by default. |
| 21:43.57 | Jayce^ | in perl 5.. |
| 21:44.02 | sjansen | It was only natural that a lot of bad code was written. Bad habits were taught. The community became a cesspool. |
| 21:44.04 | fungus | lol. |
| 21:44.18 | Jayce^ | but Larry commented exactly about that, where the community is driving to correct an early designers opinion |
| 21:44.23 | herlo | ^Migs^: I'd say that people who use php can learn good form and those who participate in our commuity *actually* have the know how. |
| 21:44.28 | levi | PHP wasn't even originally meant to be a programming language. |
| 21:44.39 | sjansen | Sure, smart people used PHP. Good PHP code was written. But it was drown in a flood of bad code. |
| 21:45.09 | fungus | PHP fulfills it's niche very well. |
| 21:45.18 | Jayce^ | and the perl community is the same one that worked hard to drive "Matt" of matt's script archives away from perl.. |
| 21:45.23 | Jayce^ | and where did he go :) |
| 21:45.41 | herlo | ~lart sjansen |
| 21:45.41 | ibot | follow's sjansen with a gauntlet and ... scratch ... HUMILIATION |
| 21:45.49 | Tene | Jayce^: I'm not familiar with that bit of perl history... |
| 21:46.00 | sjansen | PHP was designed by the blind leading the blind. It's going to take years for it to claw itself out of the hole it's dug. Someday it will. If it doesn't get replaced by better languages. |
| 21:46.06 | fungus | I agree with your point Jayce^. I disagree with sjansen's attitude that a language that isn't strict is a bad language. |
| 21:46.08 | Jayce^ | Tene, the matt's one? |
| 21:46.13 | Tene | Jayce^: yes. |
| 21:46.30 | Jayce^ | Tene, you familiar with matt's script archive? |
| 21:46.35 | Tene | Jayce^: No. |
| 21:46.38 | Jayce^ | or what it once was?\ |
| 21:46.44 | Tene | Jayce^: never heard of it. |
| 21:46.45 | fungus | Famous creator of Formmail.pl |
| 21:46.47 | Jayce^ | ahh, matt was a wannabe coder, |
| 21:46.48 | sjansen | fungus: Right. Thankfully, most people have abandoned Perl because while it allows bad code it punishes bad coders more. |
| 21:46.50 | macnewbold | haha |
| 21:46.51 | Jayce^ | fungus++ |
| 21:47.14 | Jayce^ | he jumped into perl and began creating "free code for the web"... things like formmail that quickly became very popular |
| 21:47.23 | fungus | FormMail.pl was the bane of any webhosting server admin. |
| 21:47.23 | Jayce^ | problem is, he had no clue about coding, security, etc.. |
| 21:47.46 | Jayce^ | all his stuff was well known for exploits, etc.. they usually got the original job done, but at a huge expense |
| 21:48.08 | Jayce^ | the perl community kept suggesting fixes, but he thought it was good enough usually.. |
| 21:48.23 | sjansen | PHP fills its niche well only if you define the niche as "templating language". As soon as you start using it to build a large system you'd better have developers that have memorized a long list of common mistakes to avoid. |
| 21:48.24 | Jayce^ | a couple folks actually started a "Not Matt's Scripts" site... |
| 21:48.32 | Jayce^ | Matt now uses PHP |
| 21:48.36 | herlo | so you guys can pull a few examples out of your hat, but think about the popularity of current php based apps. I'd say that MediaWiki, Wordpress and others are pretty secure. Sure they have their faults (all apps do, we're human), but I think some of that works pretty well... |
| 21:48.44 | sjansen | fungus: Who said I think a language has to be strict to be good? |
| 21:48.59 | Tene | herlo: I'd suggest you avoid it. MediaWiki is a horrible mess. |
| 21:49.07 | beandog | uh |
| 21:49.08 | fungus | sjansen: if you continue to call PHP a bad language because it allows bad code, then you *must* concede that perl is also a bad language. |
| 21:49.08 | herlo | Tene: i heard you said that... |
| 21:49.11 | sjansen | One reason I don't like Python is its strictness. |
| 21:49.12 | beandog | WordPress is anything *but* secure |
| 21:49.18 | herlo | beandog: I disagree |
| 21:49.26 | beandog | herlo, go look at the release archives |
| 21:49.30 | tensai | it's been a while since I've fought with FormMail. maybe not this year, but definitely last. it scares me how many people still use it. |
| 21:49.36 | beandog | Every release for the past 8 months or so has been an emergency, security bugfix release. |
| 21:49.37 | sjansen | fungus: Perl is a bad language for writing maintainable code. PHP is a bad language for writing secure code. |
| 21:49.40 | herlo | beandog: In the hands of the right admin and following standard rules, you can secure it just fine |
| 21:49.53 | beandog | but, thats just sloppy code |
| 21:50.00 | beandog | herlo, yah I agree |
| 21:50.03 | herlo | beandog: there have been? I've only known of a couple... |
| 21:50.10 | fungus | sjansen: so if you don't like the p* langs, which is your fave? |
| 21:50.11 | beandog | herlo, yah, its that bad. |
| 21:50.13 | sjansen | Perl punishes quickly once you go past a few hundred lines and developers either learn discipline or switch languages. |
| 21:50.26 | sjansen | Unfortunately, PHP doesn't punish for bad code as quickly. |
| 21:50.31 | Keighvin | I've even seen good VB code; the quality and security of the product has more to do with who writes it. |
| 21:50.38 | beandog | herlo, I maintain it in Gentoo, it's a mess of a nightmare. I think theyve had one normal release since I took it over |
| 21:51.13 | Tene | PHP also doesn't provide anything sane at all for trying to do anything large. No use strict, no anything. |
| 21:51.24 | beandog | http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168529 |
| 21:51.31 | Tene | It *encourages* a tangled mess of nightmares, as far as I can tell. |
| 21:51.43 | Tene | That's the only explanation I can come up with for the common patterns I've seen in PHP apps. |
| 21:52.04 | fungus | Tene: wrong. PHP does have a use strict equivalent. error_reporting(E_ALL&E_STRICT); |
| 21:52.19 | sjansen | fungus: I'm still looking for the perfect language. Ruby is most enjoyable, but unfortunately while the design is decent the backend is immature. Too slow, too informally defined. |
| 21:52.21 | beandog | I dont see why it matters if PHP does what you want it to do |
| 21:52.23 | levi | You'll learn a whole new world of strictness. :) |
| 21:52.32 | levi | That, or Ada. |
| 21:52.37 | beandog | who cares if theyre technically a utopian correct coder |
| 21:52.53 | fungus | Ok, so sjansen is just a language snob. Ignore him! |
| 21:53.31 | levi | fungus has no taste in languages. Ignore him! |
| 21:53.33 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:53.46 | levi | elg: Hey, welcome to the PHP battleground. |
| 21:53.50 | herlo | fungus: agreed |
| 21:53.55 | sjansen | fungus: You asked for my opinion of languages. Not what language I'd use. |
| 21:54.01 | Jayce^ | Do not truffle with the humungous fungus! |
| 21:54.30 | Jayce^ | herlo, I thought you knew him better |
| 21:54.37 | Jayce^ | sjansen loves C++ FTW |
| 21:54.43 | levi | Hah! |
| 21:54.45 | fungus | I am just sick of uppity language snobs, that think their shit don't stink. |
| 21:54.48 | sjansen | I'd use Python for a large app others would have to maintain. I'd use Perl for scripting, or if I knew that smart developers would be maintaining the code. I'd use Ruby if I wanted to have fun. |
| 21:54.53 | sjansen | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 21:54.53 | ibot | squeezes Jayce^ till Jayce^ turns blue like papa smurf |
| 21:55.04 | levi | I think calling sjansen a C++ lover would be about the lowest insult you could use against him. |
| 21:55.20 | sjansen | No, calling me a Visual C++ would be lower. |
| 21:55.21 | Jayce^ | hence the above statement |
| 21:56.10 | herlo | Jayce^: ask sjansen |
| 21:56.19 | herlo | Jayce^: I dare you, ask him if he writes in Java |
| 21:56.41 | herlo | Jayce^: do it! |
| 21:56.44 | sjansen | PHP encourage quick and dirty solutions. Every bit of the language is designed around the goal. |
| 21:56.58 | sjansen | Jayce^: I'll save you the trouble. |
| 21:57.13 | levi | Anyone who's interested in the history of programming languages should read this: http://www.swissdelphicenter.ch/en/niklauswirth.php |
| 21:57.17 | brac | [SwissDelphiCenter.ch : Pascal and its Successors - Niklaus Wirth] |
| 21:57.26 | sjansen | I was writing Java code for work until I discovered the library that motivated the choice wasn't going to meet my needs. |
| 21:57.31 | tensai | sjansen loves writing Enterprise software in Visual C++ |
| 21:57.39 | herlo | sjansen: you stopped!? |
| 21:57.51 | sjansen | I didn't enjoy it. I tried hard to avoid the Java verbosity trap. But I did bite the bullet. |
| 21:58.10 | herlo | sjansen: so what is Xiphias going to look like now? |
| 21:58.29 | levi | Hey, I write software in C and I hate C. It's not an intellectually inconsistent thing to do. |
| 21:59.05 | elg | levi: thanks. it's like the phoenix |
| 21:59.07 | sjansen | herlo: Probably Pango-Cairo based. Designed in Python. Moved to C where Python isn't fast enough. |
| 21:59.14 | elg | PHoenix Programming language |
| 21:59.45 | sjansen | fungus: In other words, only a lousy developer is unaware of the quality of his tools. |
| 22:00.44 | fungus | I agree. but don't call it a "bad language" it is good for what it ascribes to be. |
| 22:00.46 | sontek | [P]retty [H]orrible [P]rogramming language |
| 22:00.54 | fungus | ~lart sontek |
| 22:00.54 | ibot | shoves a crumpet down sontek's throat, happy now?! Huh? Want some JAM with that? |
| 22:00.58 | sontek | :D |
| 22:01.04 | sjansen | If you're willing to accept the cost and complexity of PHP and choose to use it anyway, go ahead. Personally, I think the cost and complexity is too high when better alternatives exist. Unfortunately, too many people choose PHP without a full understanding of the challenges its poor design hides. |
| 22:01.16 | Jayce^ | sontek, I think they need to listen to gnats descriptions on the languages |
| 22:01.36 | levi | In general, too many people choose programming languages without much knowledge of the alternatives. |
| 22:01.49 | sontek | Jayce^: haha |
| 22:01.50 | sjansen | PHP is fine for throwing together personal home pages. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line PHP started claiming it was appropriate for Web apps. |
| 22:02.07 | beandog | isnt it generally a matter of opinion which one is better anyway, considering you can reach the same goals with pretty much any language? |
| 22:02.16 | herlo | sjansen: interesting. Never heard of Pango-Cairo |
| 22:02.18 | fungus | It is appropriate for web apps. Small to medium sized web apps anyway. |
| 22:02.26 | beandog | I mean, technically, they all have their strengths and weaknesses |
| 22:02.26 | RyanE | here we go again. |
| 22:02.33 | beandog | but if you can write, good clean code in all of em ... does it really matter? |
| 22:02.39 | sjansen | beandog: If you think all languages are equal, you haven't learned a large enough range of language to a sufficient proficiency. |
| 22:02.48 | beandog | sjansen, nothing wrong with that |
| 22:02.54 | sjansen | If all languages were equal we'd all be coding in assembly. |
| 22:03.03 | levi | beandog: Absolutely not. Programming languages, Turing-equivalency aside, are not equivalent in the most important aspects. |
| 22:03.21 | beandog | I didnt say technically they were equal |
| 22:03.23 | fungus | Not all langs are equal, but all languages have good sides, and none are "bad" |
| 22:03.26 | RyanE | you can also pound a nail into the wall with a fish frozen in Liquid Nitrogen. |
| 22:03.33 | levi | fungus: That's false, too. |
| 22:03.35 | Jayce^ | RyanE, nah, it shatters |
| 22:03.58 | sjansen | fungus: Check out gurulabs.com. I'd call that a small Web site. If I could show you the code behind it, you'd agree it's proof that PHP isn't a good language for small Web apps. |
| 22:04.00 | levi | fungus: The criteria that you use to find a language "bad" may change, but you can objectively compare them. |
| 22:04.02 | beandog | I said you can achieve the same goal with all of them, how is it relevant which one is better? |
| 22:04.03 | fungus | Their just jealous about the attention and popularity PHP has. |
| 22:04.36 | beandog | anyway. Im just gonna keep coding in the languages I like, and Ill stay happy that way. :) |
| 22:04.39 | levi | beandog: So, you can build a house out of popsicle sticks or standard lumber. How is it relevant which one is better? |
| 22:04.40 | beandog | screw you guys! |
| 22:04.44 | beandog | :) |
| 22:05.02 | RyanE | I personally consider PHP like a leatherman. You can do a lot of things with it, none of them as well as with a purpose-built tool. |
| 22:05.20 | levi | PHP is like the cheap knock-off leatherman tool, maybe. |
| 22:05.33 | sjansen | beandog: I can write a modern Web app from scratch in assembly in a few years. Or I could use a modern language and get the job done in a few months. |
| 22:05.34 | Jayce^ | levi, was just typing something along those lines |
| 22:05.35 | RyanE | levi: given. except it's a leatherman that has had odd tools welded onto blades. |
| 22:05.39 | fungus | levi smells like poo-poo\ |
| 22:05.51 | levi | fungus smells like toe-jam! |
| 22:05.52 | beandog | sjansen, right, but were not talking that big a gap between something like perl and php |
| 22:06.04 | beandog | and using levi's extreme example also doesnt work |
| 22:06.09 | Jayce^ | RyanE, yeah, doesn't fold, all the blades are out at all times |
| 22:06.10 | RyanE | ooh.. now you're stirring the pot. |
| 22:06.11 | beandog | Were not talking about BASIC and Ruby |
| 22:06.23 | RyanE | Jayce^: and half of them are rusty blades. |
| 22:06.24 | Jayce^ | want an extra feature, weld on another piece |
| 22:06.25 | beandog | So dont have your examples be as broad between differences. |
| 22:06.30 | RyanE | but you can still use it to make websites... :) |
| 22:06.36 | sjansen | I'll admit that PHP and Perl are roughly equivalent in the hands of a poor developer. |
| 22:06.43 | levi | beandog: Admittedly, my example was extreme. But there's a continuum, and at what point do you declare something 'not good enough'? |
| 22:06.54 | beandog | levi, when MS makes it. ;) |
| 22:06.59 | sjansen | However, if you're willing to dig into advanced Perl you'll dicover it's much more powerful than PHP. |
| 22:07.05 | beandog | sjansen, I agree |
| 22:07.25 | RyanE | sjansen: that way leads the path of madness. |
| 22:07.26 | levi | And more thoughtfully-designed, to boot. |
| 22:07.29 | beandog | Anyway, my whole point was .. go with what works best for you. Ill admit theres always going to be something technologically superior. But dont bash people just because they are good with what theyve chosen |
| 22:07.43 | sjansen | I the hands of a mediocre developer, Python is a much better choice than PHP. |
| 22:08.04 | levi | beandog: Who's bashing people? Most of us, at least, are bashing PHP. |
| 22:08.19 | sjansen | For starters, Python will motivate the developer to use decent templating, modular design, and probably a good framework. |
| 22:08.23 | levi | I can't help it if people want to become proficient in a really bad language. |
| 22:08.25 | fungus | You are also bashing PHP users |
| 22:08.32 | levi | Actually, it's a hobby for some people. |
| 22:08.35 | sjansen | beandog: A little sensitive, perhaps? |
| 22:08.36 | beandog | sjansen, hmm, okay I have to agree with you there. |
| 22:08.42 | beandog | re python |
| 22:08.46 | levi | fungus: I hate C, yet I use it. When I bash C, am I then bashing myself? |
| 22:08.52 | levi | I don't think so. |
| 22:08.57 | beandog | sjansen, not really, Im not completely sold on PHP either, but I dont like many of the alternatives |
| 22:09.20 | fungus | You were bashing the users and the community, and the resultant code. |
| 22:09.24 | RyanE | PHP was a hobby for me until I got hired on a stint to use it for a few years. Paid the bills fine. |
| 22:09.31 | levi | fungus: Someone might have been, but it wasn't me. |
| 22:09.51 | fungus | Ok, maybe it wasn't you. but you still smell like poo-poo. :) |
| 22:10.17 | levi | By people who program in awful languages as a hobby, I mean people who build brainf*** compilers and whatnot. |
| 22:10.43 | sjansen | beandog: I think I've discovered the answer. Right now, the answer is: "While some languages and frameworks hide it better than others, the Web is fundamentally broken and things won't get better until we evolve the Web to something better." |
| 22:11.01 | beandog | sjansen, definately |
| 22:11.20 | fungus | Ok, I'll concede there. |
| 22:11.33 | levi | sjansen: I don't think the Web is fundamentally broken. What's broken is that it's being used for things it wasn't designed for. |
| 22:11.55 | sjansen | But it's still a fundamental truth that using Python to build Web apps is smarter than using PHP or C to write Web apps. |
| 22:12.05 | fungus | Which means that the Web is now broken by it's *new* definition. |
| 22:12.10 | levi | People are forgetting the fact that the Internet is, or at least should be, protocol-agnostic. |
| 22:12.31 | sjansen | levi: When I say Web, I don't mean Internet. |
| 22:12.34 | levi | fungus: No, it just means that a lot of people are really stupid. |
| 22:12.39 | levi | sjansen: I know. |
| 22:12.47 | sjansen | I mean HTTP+Web Browsers to create applications. |
| 22:13.15 | levi | sjansen: See, what you just said is broken, not the Web. |
| 22:13.29 | beandog | woah |
| 22:13.31 | fungus | Correct, the definition of the Web has evolved, and now the protocols that run it are broken in terms of the new definition. |
| 22:13.35 | levi | The Web actually works remarkably well. |
| 22:13.36 | beandog | what is up with gtk+ file selector auto completion? |
| 22:13.39 | RyanE | it's broken, but it's less broken than some of the previous alternatives. |
| 22:14.04 | RyanE | i.e. Fat-client Client-Server apps over the internet. |
| 22:14.27 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:14.33 | levi | fungus: People who think like that are broken, and really want something else but are insisting on shoehorning it on top of the Web anyway. |
| 22:14.44 | levi | fungus: Wrong thinking like that doesn't make the Web broken. |
| 22:15.26 | fungus | more snobbery. |
| 22:15.31 | levi | Part of why they want to shoehorn stuff onto the Web is that everyone forgot about the rest of the Internet, and also broke a lot of its features. |
| 22:15.37 | fungus | life is evolution. |
| 22:15.57 | fungus | things change, change is inevitable |
| 22:15.59 | levi | fungus: And it isn't snobbery to claim that the Web is broken because it doesn't do the dumb things you want to do with it? |
| 22:16.09 | fozzmoo | Could someone give me a brief recap here? |
| 22:16.10 | sjansen | levi: We seem to disagree on whether HTTP+Web Browsers can be evolved to provide a decent platform for applications. |
| 22:16.18 | RyanE | fozzmoo: probably not. :) |
| 22:16.37 | levi | sjansen: Well, it probably could be. We may disagree on whether it should. |
| 22:16.49 | RyanE | fozzmoo: well, starting at about 16:00 hours, there was a brief 'PHP sucks' thread, which has devolved into 'the web is broken'. |
| 22:16.54 | fozzmoo | Awh. |
| 22:16.55 | sjansen | I think they can. I think they're a very compelling platform, but they need some fundamental changes. Starting with replacing the cookie with something better. |
| 22:16.58 | fozzmoo | I would have loved to chime in on that. |
| 22:17.09 | fozzmoo | Because... |
| 22:17.11 | fozzmoo | PHP SUCKS! |
| 22:17.18 | levi | fozzmoo: 'Web is broken' is still new and fresh. PHP, not so much. |
| 22:17.20 | fungus | And so does fozzmoo |
| 22:17.25 | RyanE | fozzmoo: and I forgot, a couple of people got slightly offended, thinking that PHP *users* were painted with a broad brush as being stupid. |
| 22:17.48 | levi | fungus is apparently getting his feelings hurt, since he's lowered to the level of calling me smelly. |
| 22:17.49 | fozzmoo | Most PHP developers are... kinda dumb. |
| 22:18.09 | fungus | No, no feelings hurt. I just like to fling poo\ |
| 22:18.13 | fozzmoo | But that's largely due to the language. |
| 22:18.20 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@12.188.193.132) |
| 22:18.22 | fozzmoo | And the problems with the language is largely due to the developers. |
| 22:18.29 | fozzmoo | It's a downward spiral of junk. |
| 22:18.32 | levi | fungus: If you're flinging it, you probably smell like it too. :) |
| 22:18.33 | RyanE | fozzmoo: I don't think I was dumb to do PHP for 3 years. They *did* pay me, after all... |
| 22:18.35 | Tene | If your tool is a wet fish, you're going to learn some very wrong things about how to build houses. |
| 22:18.38 | fozzmoo | Starting with Rasmus Lerdorf. |
| 22:18.50 | Tene | If your tool is php, you're going to learn some very wrong things about how to build software. |
| 22:18.53 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@12.188.193.132) |
| 22:18.54 | fozzmoo | RyanE: I agree. I did it for a time as well... and will do it now for money as well. |
| 22:19.08 | fozzmoo | It's a good example to learn by, that's for sure. |
| 22:19.13 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.174.112) |
| 22:19.19 | Tene | Fish are great for eating, not for building. PHP is fine for personal home pages, not for applications. |
| 22:19.21 | RyanE | fozzmoo: you mean a *bad* example to learn *from*, right... |
| 22:19.30 | Tene | It's okay to use different tools for different jobs. |
| 22:19.32 | fozzmoo | Exactly. :) |
| 22:19.39 | levi | People who go into software development without any real training using a language that doesn't have strong opinions about software design are going to end up creating their own opinions, and they're most likely going to be... less than optimal. |
| 22:20.00 | levi | Thus the hate towards PHP and its users. |
| 22:20.01 | sjansen | RyanE: Being payed to use PHP isn't dump. Being payed to use PHP and not rising above the mediocrity of most PHP apps is dumb.. |
| 22:20.34 | RyanE | sjansen: there is a certain quality in 'slumming' and just getting it done and going home. |
| 22:20.36 | sjansen | If you're being payed to use PHP, you have a responsibility to learn how to use it right. |
| 22:20.40 | fozzmoo | I'm gaining more respect for Java for this reason. |
| 22:20.43 | RyanE | sjansen: when you don't think you can make a difference, it's the way to go. |
| 22:20.46 | Tene | Using PHP to build something for your own use is just fine. Using PHP to build something and then claiming that it is secure and good is dumb. |
| 22:20.54 | fozzmoo | I mean, I hate Java because of it's incredible verbosity. |
| 22:21.14 | fozzmoo | But programming in Java is a lot more of a chore than VB or PHP. |
| 22:21.16 | sjansen | I started down the path of learning how to write safe, maintainable code in PHP. Turns out it's more work than I'm willing to do. I'd rather use a language where it's not so easy and tempting to do something stupid. |
| 22:21.18 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=route@12.165.219.4) |
| 22:21.21 | fozzmoo | It requires a certain background. |
| 22:21.24 | fozzmoo | OO, at least. |
| 22:21.26 | Tene | When I have to clean off a server because somebody lied and advertised an exploit facilitation device as a CMS... |
| 22:21.50 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 22:21.52 | sjansen | I'd rather work in an environment where management's expectations haven't been twisted by too many developers producing too many lousy solutions too quickly. |
| 22:22.12 | RyanE | sjansen: wouldn't we all, but when you're unemployed for 5 months in a new house, you can't be too choosy. |
| 22:22.17 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Yes! |
| 22:22.23 | levi | fozzmoo: That's my point. Java has a pretty strong opinion on how software should be written. It may not be the best, but it's far, far from the worst. |
| 22:22.33 | RyanE | of course, the environment has changed since then, and Programmers are back on top. |
| 22:22.34 | fozzmoo | RyanE: True. But this isn't a realistic discussion to begin with. |
| 22:22.36 | fozzmoo | We're all idealists. |
| 22:22.44 | fozzmoo | levi: I agree. |
| 22:23.02 | Tene | fozzmoo: how goes the java indoctrination? |
| 22:23.11 | fozzmoo | Tene: Today... I hate my life. |
| 22:23.17 | Tene | :( |
| 22:23.28 | RyanE | fozzmoo: funny, that's how I felt *EVERY* day I had to program Java. |
| 22:23.29 | fozzmoo | Not so much because of the Java... but because of all the business crap I'm being indoctrinated with. |
| 22:23.35 | levi | So, an untrained programmer who gets started with Java has a much better chance of either picking up reasonable software development practices or getting frustrated and leaving software development entirely. :) |
| 22:23.50 | fozzmoo | I'm not programming in Java, yet. |
| 22:23.54 | fozzmoo | I'm "architecting" |
| 22:23.57 | RyanE | of course, that was back in the days before "Java 2", and the ground had a tendency to change underneath you back then. |
| 22:24.06 | fozzmoo | RyanE: Fun. |
| 22:24.10 | Tene | fozzmoo: can't you write a five-line perl script to "architect" for you? |
| 22:24.29 | fozzmoo | Tene: Not a bad idea. |
| 22:24.41 | RyanE | there you go. metaprogram the Java from a nice perl script... |
| 22:25.09 | fozzmoo | perl -MGD -e "draw_blobs_with_lines_between();" |
| 22:25.12 | sjansen | RyanE: I never said "starving homelessness is better than PHP". I did it for a time, but as soon as something better came along I jumped at it. |
| 22:25.32 | sjansen | And I'm not going back. |
| 22:25.39 | RyanE | sjansen: heh. You crack me up. I'm not sure that starving homelessness is not better than writing Java... :) |
| 22:25.46 | fozzmoo | sjansen: It sounds like the overwhelming opinion here is that, given the current job market, NOBODY should be programming in PHP. :) |
| 22:26.03 | sjansen | Another important lesson I learned from PHP is "being the lowest bidder sucks". |
| 22:26.35 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Oh yeah. I remember that lesson too. :) |
| 22:26.46 | fozzmoo | sjansen: Especially when the lowest bidder has never actually done any PHP before. |
| 22:26.58 | Tene | Oh! Nobody has made an analogy to cars yet! |
| 22:27.02 | RyanE | sjansen: and lives in India |
| 22:27.52 | levi | Tene: PHP is a rusted-out Yugo, and Java is a shiny new Hummer! |
| 22:27.52 | Tene | I was looking at programming-language postings the other day on various job sites... |
| 22:28.06 | Tene | There were way more perl postings than php postings. |
| 22:28.15 | Tene | perl was about equal with .Net |
| 22:28.25 | fozzmoo | Tene: That surprises me. |
| 22:28.31 | levi | How many C postings? |
| 22:28.34 | fozzmoo | I'm used to seeing a lot of PHP postings. |
| 22:28.48 | sjansen | I'd say that's fair. Java is an over large ego trip that will slowly destroy the world if it's not kept in check. But at least it'll keep its users safe if they can afford it. |
| 22:28.49 | fozzmoo | Of course, they're usually part time or contract. |
| 22:28.51 | *** join/#utah klys (n=dsl@72.8.101.169) |
| 22:28.58 | Tene | http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=perl%2Cpython%2Cphp%2Cruby%2Cc%23&l= -- one of the sites with a pretty graph |
| 22:29.25 | fozzmoo | "Developer needed to fix critcal PHP app. Call ASAP!" |
| 22:29.52 | levi | Apropos of nothing, BT's latest album is actually some good electronica. |
| 22:29.56 | RyanE | You add C to it, and the others are considerably lower... |
| 22:30.09 | Tene | I was recently introduced to VNV Nation. |
| 22:30.13 | Tene | I'm thoroughly enjoying it. |
| 22:30.18 | RyanE | Of course, I wonder if their search algorithm is seeing *all the c's* in the job app... :) |
| 22:30.24 | sjansen | PHP is the only thing you can afford before graduating from college. A stage we all pass through on the way to adulthood. |
| 22:30.43 | fozzmoo | Yes, it appears C is doing well. |
| 22:30.50 | levi | RyanE: Yeah, I wouldn't trust those numbers. |
| 22:30.54 | fozzmoo | C++ is also doing well. |
| 22:31.08 | Tene | I've never heard of that job site before, but it has a pretty graph! |
| 22:31.10 | RyanE | levi: c++ I would, though. |
| 22:31.15 | fozzmoo | But Java rules them all. |
| 22:31.18 | *** join/#utah Hearts|laptop (n=hearts@166-70-210-101.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:31.30 | fozzmoo | Oh. But .NET rules over Java |
| 22:31.53 | fozzmoo | WHOA! "BASIC" kicks ass on everything. |
| 22:31.56 | RyanE | nice to see that the two things I program in regularly are the top two, according to this likely extremely non-scientific but pretty graph. |
| 22:31.58 | fozzmoo | Something's askew here. |
| 22:32.25 | fozzmoo | http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=perl%2Cpython%2Cphp%2Cruby%2Cc%2B%2B%2CJava%2C.NET%2CBASIC&l= |
| 22:32.26 | levi | fozzmoo: Any job listing with the word 'basic' will be picked up. |
| 22:32.35 | fozzmoo | oh. |
| 22:32.37 | Tene | http://www.presicient.com/langjobs.html |
| 22:32.38 | brac | [Dynamic Language Jobs Barometer for 2007-Sep-20] |
| 22:32.40 | levi | Clearly not what you want, and also why the C one was so high. |
| 22:33.03 | fozzmoo | Oh wow. If you know the "experience" language, you're guaranteed a gazillion offers. |
| 22:33.08 | levi | http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=%22perl+programmer%22%2C%22c+programmer%22%2C%22java+programmer%22&l= |
| 22:33.12 | *** join/#utah decriptor_ (n=decripto@166-70-62-130.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:33.13 | Tene | hehehe |
| 22:33.16 | RyanE | fozzmoo: good thing I have experience. |
| 22:33.29 | *** part/#utah decriptor_ (n=decripto@166-70-62-130.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:33.39 | *** join/#utah decriptor_ (n=decripto@166-70-62-130.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:34.21 | levi | http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=%22perl+programmer%22%2C%22c+programmer%22%2C%22java+programmer%22&l= |
| 22:34.34 | levi | Hmm, it cuts off my urls. |
| 22:34.47 | levi | http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=%22perl+programmer%22%2C%22c+programmer%22%2C%22java+programmer%22%2C%22c%2B%2B+programmer%22%2C%22c%23+programmer%22%2C%22php+programmer%22&l= |
| 22:34.57 | fozzmoo | Wow. That "Job Postings Per Capita" chart is fun. |
| 22:35.00 | levi | There we go. Java FTW. |
| 22:35.06 | sjansen | Python is a Toyota Camry. Perl is a rusty Yugo (just like PHP) that can transform into a Lamborghini if only you could remember where you put the button. |
| 22:35.44 | fozzmoo | http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=%22perl+programmer%22%2C%22c+programmer%22%2C%22java+programmer%22%2C%22c%2B%2B+programmer%22%2C%22.NET+programmer%22%2C%22php+programmer%22&l= |
| 22:36.23 | fozzmoo | I replaced C# with .NET |
| 22:36.31 | Hearts|laptop | TinyURL anyone? |
| 22:36.36 | fozzmoo | It overtook Java |
| 22:36.44 | sjansen | Replacing C# with .Net isn't fair. |
| 22:36.57 | sjansen | F# is also .Net, but worlds different. |
| 22:37.11 | levi | sjansen: Well, VB is more likely to show up than F# :) |
| 22:37.13 | decriptor_ | then you have to add ASP.NET |
| 22:37.14 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I guess VB .NET ... |
| 22:37.19 | fozzmoo | Yeah. There's that crap too. |
| 22:37.23 | levi | And ASP.NET, yeah. |
| 22:37.29 | levi | F# is actually pretty nice. |
| 22:37.34 | fozzmoo | What is F#? |
| 22:37.39 | decriptor_ | kind of surprised to see c++ going up |
| 22:37.49 | fozzmoo | decriptor_: Everything's going up with the market. |
| 22:37.55 | levi | F# is the .NET version of OCaml. |
| 22:38.00 | sjansen | *sigh* One of these days I'll have to learn a *ML... |
| 22:38.01 | RyanE | time to go buy the parts to fix the 65" TV. Later. |
| 22:38.01 | fozzmoo | (Except C) |
| 22:38.31 | fozzmoo | RyanE: Good luck finding the 37" wrench |
| 22:38.32 | decriptor_ | but C# is dipping and not really but surprised that java is as big as it it |
| 22:38.35 | levi | There's plenty of demand for good C programmers. |
| 22:38.53 | RyanE | fozzmoo: I think I'll stay under $100, which for a 'free' broken 65" TV is not bad... |
| 22:38.54 | decriptor_ | levi: I'm guessing that that's because there isn't that main really good c programmers |
| 22:39.05 | fozzmoo | RyanE: What's wrong with it? |
| 22:39.10 | sjansen | But first, I have to become proficient enough with monads to decide if they're fundamentally flawed or radically innovative. |
| 22:39.26 | RyanE | fozzmoo: convergence chips, which is the problem with a huge number of 3-5 year old RPTV sets. |
| 22:39.41 | *** part/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:39.42 | RyanE | but I've replaced the chips, and convergence is still out. Likely a burned resistor or pico fuse. |
| 22:39.44 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:39.51 | RyanE | fozzmoo: convergence chips, which is the problem with a huge number of 3-5 year old RPTV sets. |
| 22:39.54 | RyanE | but I've replaced the chips, and convergence is still out. Likely a burned resistor or pico fuse. |
| 22:40.16 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@dhcp12.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 22:40.25 | fozzmoo | Some guy on the radio a couple weeks ago was complaining about the fact that TV repairmen don't really have jobs anymore. |
| 22:40.35 | RyanE | it's a disease. Orphaned electronics find their way to my house... |
| 22:40.36 | *** join/#utah thrain][ (n=dpn@72.8.105.196) |
| 22:41.02 | RyanE | the only problem is if I can't fix it, it's 300lbs, that I don't want to haul to the DI. |
| 22:41.04 | beandog | I think we should have a distro smackdown next |
| 22:41.16 | levi | RyanE: If you can't fix it, why would DI want it? |
| 22:41.19 | beandog | gentoo > your mom |
| 22:41.52 | RyanE | levi: maybe they can fix it better than I, but you've got a point. I suppose I could part it out, lots of cool parts in a big RPTV. Hopefully I can just fix it. |
| 22:41.55 | levi | Yes, gentoo is a better Linux distro than my mom is. That follows pretty readily from the fact that my mom is not a Linux distro. |
| 22:42.06 | thrain][ | lucky |
| 22:42.06 | levi | RyanE: No, they'll just throw it away. |
| 22:42.10 | RyanE | levi: fighting with logic is not fair. |
| 22:42.21 | levi | RyanE: And be mad at you for dropping off a huge piece of garbage. |
| 22:42.25 | thrain][ | RyanE: craigslist |
| 22:42.32 | thrain][ | people love weird crap on there |
| 22:42.43 | RyanE | thrain][: good idea. Hopefully it won't come to that. Later, all. |
| 22:42.49 | beandog | levi, funsucker! |
| 22:44.23 | klys | levi: remind me not to comer to your door |
| 22:44.37 | levi | klys: I yelled at the last guy who came to my door. |
| 22:45.14 | levi | If you show up with a clipboard, beware. |
| 22:45.16 | klys | ...message in a bottle... |
| 22:46.05 | thrain][ | I've got a welcome mat that says "leave" |
| 22:46.14 | thrain][ | pretty cool, if I do say so myself |
| 22:46.20 | klys | haha I hope you don't qwant it anymore |
| 22:46.47 | levi | klys: Well, I might actually recognize you if you showed up. But if you tried to sell me something or get me to take a survey.... |
| 22:46.52 | thrain][ | hey, it's old... I could use a new one |
| 22:47.25 | klys | see, 'thing' and 'that' make no sense to someone you just met anyway |
| 22:47.28 | thrain][ | outta here... oh, and slackware's the best |
| 22:47.54 | decriptor_ | for a drink coaster |
| 22:48.28 | klys | decriptor_: how's asm? |
| 22:48.49 | decriptor_ | haven't had a chance to do more than copy and pass the hello world program |
| 22:48.51 | decriptor_ | :( |
| 22:49.01 | decriptor_ | I might have to use c due to time constraints |
| 22:49.10 | klys | that's fine, you practically have to reboot to do asm on modern hardware anyway |
| 22:49.53 | decriptor_ | plus this is just a school project. Its a simply one so I was thinking it would be fun to have done it in assembly |
| 22:50.10 | levi | klys: That's not true. |
| 22:50.25 | levi | klys: How do you think a compiler works, anyway? |
| 22:50.31 | klys | ok |
| 22:50.57 | levi | Just like an assembler, except it does some more complicated language translation first. |
| 22:51.05 | klys | most of the mnemonics in asm are described as 16-bit when ione first learns |
| 22:51.36 | levi | klys: You should go read 'Programming From the Ground Up' too, apparently. |
| 22:52.02 | decriptor_ | levi: I only found that book for sale, is there an online free ebook? |
| 22:52.30 | levi | http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/pgubook/ |
| 22:52.33 | levi | Right there. |
| 22:52.43 | klys | just because you blacklist part of my programming experience as something I don't know according to those you would refer me to... |
| 22:53.11 | decriptor_ | levi: I was there, just didn't catch that download link :D |
| 22:53.40 | klys | still, programming from the ground up, does it affiliate well with official hackiong jargon, or is it anything like "the zen and art of programming"? |
| 22:53.40 | levi | klys: I'm not saying you don't know assembly language. I'm saying you apparently aren't aware of how to do asm programming in Linux. |
| 22:53.52 | klys | yeah, I use gas |
| 22:53.58 | klys | or nasm |
| 22:54.08 | decriptor_ | and only had to 8 hours a day still |
| 22:54.24 | klys | and nm and ar and ld |
| 22:55.09 | levi | Well, then you should be well aware that you can do it without any rebooting. |
| 22:55.22 | klys | still gas is done in v86 mode or kernel code only |
| 22:56.29 | klys | it's just more comfortable an environment to use frm |
| 22:57.38 | levi | Maybe rebooting and all that is more comfortable to you. It's certainly not necessary. |
| 22:58.24 | klys | so anyway, to accomplish something in assembly, you're probably using dos or bios calls, unless you've learned the int 0x80 tricks |
| 22:59.25 | levi | klys: You're using your OS system calls. There's a well defined interface. |
| 22:59.36 | levi | 'Programming From the Ground Up' goes over all this. |
| 22:59.45 | decriptor_ | finally have it |
| 23:04.15 | sinuhe | sjansen: So which programming language, or scripting language, would you put as your preferred (the one that doesn't take all your time or make you look stupid)? |
| 23:04.56 | levi | Python doesn't make you look stupid and is pretty easy to come up to speed with. |
| 23:05.13 | klys | of course it might take up all your time, so, put perl |
| 23:06.03 | klys | php would make you look stupid and does take up a lot of people's time, usually secondhand |
| 23:06.28 | klys | ruby, I don't know anyone who really does ruby |
| 23:06.34 | levi | Perl will take up all your time looking up what all the sigils and implicit variables are. :P |
| 23:06.45 | levi | klys: Plenty of people in the channel do ruby. |
| 23:06.54 | klys | cool |
| 23:07.46 | elg | sjansen uses java exclusively |
| 23:08.09 | sinuhe | herlo: Heh. Stuart and I have been at this one since he taught my rh133 class. No bravery needed. A flame war hasn't started (yet). |
| 23:08.18 | sinuhe | elg: Frightening. |
| 23:08.37 | elg | sinuhe: actually, it's quite the opposite. I'm just hoping to get a rise out of him |
| 23:08.49 | sinuhe | elg: I don't think he told me that. |
| 23:09.03 | elg | he didn't tell you he hates java? |
| 23:09.16 | elg | oh wait, maybe I'm confusing java with C++. |
| 23:09.21 | elg | I think that's right, I think he hates c++ more |
| 23:09.21 | sinuhe | elg: I was getting worried about him there. I don't think he told me he hates Java, but I don't blame him. |
| 23:09.34 | Tene | levi: if you can't remember the difference between four different sigils, how can you remember any sort of api or the variables you're using in a part of your program? |
| 23:10.34 | elg | Tene: if your api had calls named c32sa() and d1321ab() would you remember them two weeks down the road? |
| 23:10.36 | sinuhe | elg: I do remember him mentioning C++. I have considered learning it. |
| 23:10.54 | elg | a fine language with some incredible warts |
| 23:11.21 | herlo | sinuhe: hehe |
| 23:11.22 | Tene | elg: if there were only four of them and I used them on every variable in my program, yes, yes I would. |
| 23:11.49 | elg | ~sigil |
| 23:12.08 | tensai | elg: that would be the %, @, $ prepended to variables |
| 23:12.25 | tensai | &remove($elg{'brain'}); |
| 23:12.52 | elg | i'm confusing sigils with the implicit variables and suc |
| 23:13.04 | elg | sigils are just another ridiculous syntax design decision |
| 23:13.10 | Tene | elg: howso? |
| 23:13.16 | sinuhe | elg,herlo: I am a product of GNU land, being a C and Scheme nerd (not that I claim any proficiancy). |
| 23:13.29 | elg | they're part of the syntax, and they're ridiculous |
| 23:14.01 | sinuhe | elg,herlo: I'm curious about tcl and ruby, and like awk over perl. I don't like Java. |
| 23:14.23 | Tene | elg: if they're ridiculous, ridicule something specific about them. |
| 23:14.52 | elg | bozo the clown is ridiculous |
| 23:14.58 | sinuhe | elg,herlo: I know some ECMAscript, but who doesn't. What I know is more oriented towards text processing/markup. |
| 23:15.00 | elg | I don't have to tell you exactly why his shoes are ridiculous |
| 23:15.30 | herlo | especially DJango. I just need a project to write in it now... |
| 23:15.36 | Tene | I personally like the idea that different things should look different. |
| 23:15.42 | sinuhe | herlo: I have a buddy that thinks python is the bomb. It seems OK from what I can tell, but not enough to excite me. |
| 23:16.06 | elg | it's a matter of subjective opinion |
| 23:16.18 | elg | there's someone out there who thinks bozo the clown isn't ridiculous |
| 23:16.22 | elg | gtg |
| 23:20.52 | tensai | I like perl's sigils too. they're cute. |
| 23:32.39 | levi | perl sigils look like line noise, or alternatively like BASIC. |
| 23:33.17 | Tene | lisp uses too many parens. |
| 23:34.54 | levi | No, it makes the unconscionable sins of exclusively using parentheses for delimiting and opening them on the left of a function name instead of the right. |
| 23:35.37 | levi | Programming C in a functional style would produce a similar number of brackets, but they would vary between {}s and ()s and they would open to the right of identifiers instead of the left. |
| 23:36.53 | levi | Anyway, Lisp's syntax makes it easy to use macros. Perl's syntax makes it easy to write terse code. |
| 23:38.02 | levi | Notice that I didn't recommend Lisp for the guy who wanted a language that didn't make him look stupid or take a lot of time to learn. |
| 23:39.00 | beandog | you guys are still talking about languages? |
| 23:39.01 | beandog | sheesh |
| 23:39.09 | beandog | what ever happened to the robe discussion |
| 23:39.33 | levi | No one disputed my iron-clad argument for wrap-and-tie robes. :P |
| 23:41.23 | fozzmoo | I like the snap-your-fingers-and-it-falls-off robes. |
| 23:41.27 | fozzmoo | Not for me, though. |
| 23:41.32 | Tene | for harleypig? |
| 23:41.41 | fozzmoo | No, not for harleypig either. |
| 23:41.52 | fozzmoo | Not for anyone in #utah, actually.:) |
| 23:42.18 | Tene | Aw, and I was going to get one for 'chelle. |
| 23:42.36 | fozzmoo | Is she in #utah now? |
| 23:42.49 | Tene | Oh, not currently. |
| 23:42.56 | fozzmoo | Cuz I'd make a BIG FRICKIN exception for Chelle. :) |
| 23:42.57 | Tene | She often is, though. |
| 23:43.07 | fozzmoo | Yeah. |
| 23:43.57 | beandog | wrap and tie? |
| 23:44.06 | beandog | we need pictures |
| 23:44.29 | Tene | beandog: of levi demonstrating the benefits of wrap-and-tie? |
| 23:44.35 | beandog | uh |
| 23:47.04 | beandog | robes! |
| 23:47.16 | fozzmoo | And the lack thereof! |
| 23:56.30 | levi | There will be no pictures of me in any kind of robe. |
| 23:59.04 | levi | I hope no one is overly disappointed. |
