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| 00:03.47 | *** mode/#utah [+o GvzEvxre] by ChanServ |
| 00:05.00 | TimRikerUTOSC | the audio buzzing is nice (not) |
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| 00:05.38 | TimRikerUTOSC | where? |
| 00:05.47 | TimRikerUTOSC | sure enough. |
| 00:06.03 | redbeard2 | anyone else in here at utosc? |
| 00:08.22 | elg | ~lart redbeard2 |
| 00:08.22 | ibot | slaps redbeard2 upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 00:08.51 | redbeard2 | man, there's some hack jabbering away in the front of the room |
| 00:09.15 | thaddeusq | so tell them to shut-up |
| 00:09.47 | thaddeusq | Unless they're supposed to be jabbering. |
| 00:09.57 | redbeard2 | i think he is |
| 00:14.48 | *** topic/#utah by TimRikerUTOSC -> The channel for content free discussion in Utah | http://plug.org/irc | Utah Open Source Conference - September 6-8, 2007 - https://register.utosc.org | All hail tinfoil!!1! | #utos for live heckling^Wcomments |
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| 00:44.00 | goozbach | yay for confrences |
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| 00:48.43 | shadowwire | ~nick shadowwire |
| 00:48.47 | shadowwire | crap |
| 00:48.55 | shadowwire | lart lame commands |
| 00:49.03 | shadowwire | ~lart lame commands |
| 00:49.03 | ibot | pulls out his louisville slugger and uses lame commands's head to break the homerun record |
| 00:49.18 | shadowwire | Anyone here? |
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| 03:35.39 | elg | ~microgreen $redbeard1 is <action>replaces $redbeard1's onions with micro greens. |
| 03:35.40 | ibot | elg: okay |
| 03:35.48 | elg | ~microgreen emcnabb |
| 03:35.49 | ibot | ACTION replaces emcnabb's onions with micro greens. |
| 03:36.15 | elg | ~onjoin redbeard1 -~microgreen redbeard1 |
| 03:36.16 | ibot | ok, elg |
| 03:41.46 | elg | ~onjoin redbeard1 -say ~microgreen redbeard1 |
| 03:41.46 | ibot | ok, elg |
| 04:10.16 | elg | levi: been looking at the pompeii oven closer |
| 04:10.40 | elg | levi: this page i think answers your question: http://www.fornobravo.com/pompeii_oven/why_round.html , though I'm confused by this paragraph: |
| 04:10.43 | brac | [Why Build an Italian Brick Oven | Round Brick Oven Design] |
| 04:10.47 | elg | The downside is that a pizza oven can only bake around 20-30 loaves of bread from a single firing, not 75. But for a home oven, that works for me. I make more bread than we could ever eat, and I give lots away. |
| 04:11.37 | elg | I don't see why you could cook more bread in a barrel-vault oven. it wouldn't necessarily hold any more heat, and as far as cooking surface area goes you can't beat a circle for making the most of the area |
| 04:13.35 | elg | i'll have to look at this closer and see if i can pick up any pizza-making tips. :) http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html |
| 04:13.37 | brac | [Vera Pizza Napoletana Specification | Verace Pizza Napoletana] |
| 04:33.30 | levi | Good evening. |
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| 06:50.18 | v_silent | hi to all , as i understand this is a channel dedicated to VIM? |
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| 15:05.43 | goozbach | my laptop got delayed again |
| 15:05.50 | goozbach | sinuhe: coming to the conference? |
| 15:10.46 | sinuhe | goozbach: No, I'll be unable to make it. :-( |
| 15:11.15 | sinuhe | goozbach: My laptop got delayed, too. They're saying the 11th now. Dax and Bryan have got theirs already, though, the hosers. |
| 15:12.32 | goozbach | I'm wondering if canceling again and re-ordering will save me money |
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| 15:13.37 | sinuhe | goozbach: It will cost you another few weeks... |
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| 15:19.07 | nick125 | I don't know if logitech quality has gone down the tubes or if this is the a bad batch of keyboards, but, this sucks. The media key on this keyboard also depressed and won't come back up. |
| 15:19.13 | nick125 | And this is the second keyboard I'm on. |
| 15:19.27 | nick125 | I love the keyboard itself, it's just the damn media keys |
| 15:19.50 | nick125 | So, I'm going to go and return it (if it's a bad batch, I don't want another bad keyboard) and buy it at circuit city (and hey, I'll save $22 too). |
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| 15:44.38 | findlay-w | UTOS! |
| 15:47.01 | goozbach | findlay-w: hi! |
| 15:47.09 | goozbach | elg here? |
| 15:49.45 | findlay-w | hey goozbach |
| 15:50.12 | findlay-w | maybe I can contrive TimRiker to part with one of his handheld gadgets today |
| 15:55.00 | elg | elg there |
| 15:55.18 | elg | for 5 minutes |
| 15:55.20 | findlay-w | elg everywhere |
| 15:55.25 | elg | invoke goozbach |
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| 16:14.28 | TimRiker | findlay-w: heh. probably not, but you can check em out if you like. |
| 16:21.18 | goozbach | elg: nevermind |
| 16:22.47 | levi | elg: I'd read the 'Why round?' discussion on Forno Bravo, I just wondered if you had any thoughts on it. |
| 16:23.28 | levi | elg: It seems to suggest that barrel vault ovens end up with a lot more thermal mass due to necessary concrete cladding over the oven. |
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| 16:24.23 | elg | levi: necessary concrete cladding? |
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| 16:24.43 | elg | I don't buy it. an arch is as self-sustaining in the x/y direction as a dome is in all directions |
| 16:24.51 | levi | elg: That's what it says; I don't know if it's really necessary or if people just tend to do it. |
| 16:25.17 | elg | yeah, that's a good question |
| 16:25.39 | elg | I do think there's an argument for cold/hot spots though. or at least, that you'd get more even reradiation |
| 16:25.46 | elg | plus domes are just cooler. :) |
| 16:25.51 | elg | er, hotter. ;-) |
| 16:25.56 | levi | Yeah. I think I'd definitely want to make a dome. |
| 16:26.14 | elg | you've got me thinking... wonder if I could make my dry-stack oven into a cylinder instead and if that would be an improvement |
| 16:27.04 | levi | There was a guy on that geodesic oven thread that cast a bunch of big triangles out of refractory material and had a self-supporting dome with no mortar. |
| 16:27.32 | findlay-w | why settle on an dome? Make a hyperdome! |
| 16:27.41 | elg | levi: that would be really slick |
| 16:27.44 | levi | That would be not-so-cheap, but it would be very portable. |
| 16:27.58 | elg | yeah, and not-so-easy. but definitely übergeek |
| 16:28.13 | levi | Well, unless you finished it like he did with concrete cladding. :) |
| 16:28.36 | levi | Well, I don't think it would be terribly hard, aside from getting the forms right. |
| 16:28.44 | elg | yeah, that's the catch with cool approaches like geodesic |
| 16:29.16 | elg | you really want some kind of insulation, whether it's vermiculate concrete or what, so the outer enclosure and inner dome are really independent entities |
| 16:29.21 | levi | It would probably be way easier to do the cast approach than the geodesic brick approach. |
| 16:29.49 | elg | maybe... you'd have to build a lot of forms, or waste a lot of time waiting for individual triangles |
| 16:30.13 | elg | with the brick, you need a good mitre saw that can cut brick, but the process is fast and precise |
| 16:30.15 | levi | Well, it didn't look like it took a whole lot of them. They were pretty big. |
| 16:30.32 | elg | that would cut down on the needed precision |
| 16:31.02 | elg | I think (in the future when I have a house and yard) I'll probably do a normal dome with a geodesic shell (and insulation in between) |
| 16:31.23 | elg | the shell might be something spacey, not even brick... or it might be bricklike. probably depends on my taste that year :) |
| 16:32.16 | levi | Well, somewhat. The guy who cut the bricks to make his looked like he did a pretty precise job with the cutting, but the small variations in cutting and assembly created some significant problems by the time he got to the upper courses. |
| 16:34.02 | levi | It might also be interesting to try to do a traditional dome with bricks cut to precise trapezoidal prisms. |
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| 16:34.39 | levi | But really, I should probably just follow the plans as-is, at least for my first attempt. :) |
| 16:38.53 | elg | i don't think you can go drastically wrong cutting the bricks for doming |
| 16:39.28 | elg | unless you plan to dry stack it, in which case you'd have to be awfully precise |
| 16:39.45 | elg | i wish I had a bunch of little brick-shaped blocks for trying out designs |
| 16:39.54 | elg | on the table |
| 16:39.59 | levi | Well, no, but that's a lot of cuts and a lot of waste brick. And you have to re-do the angles for each chain. |
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| 16:40.27 | elg | true, but less wasted mortar and better heat retention |
| 16:40.39 | elg | (assuming mortar is worse than brick) |
| 16:41.16 | elg | and with a decent mitre saw and not all that many chains it wouldn't be that much of an issue |
| 16:41.49 | levi | True. Maybe I'll do it. If I posted a lot of pictures, I'd be the star of the Forno Bravo forums. |
| 16:41.57 | elg | :) |
| 16:42.38 | levi | So I just need to get me a nice sliding compound mitre saw and a diamond cutting blade. |
| 16:42.48 | levi | And do a bunch of math. :) |
| 16:42.55 | elg | that's the fun part :) |
| 16:45.30 | levi | And then I'll have a nice sliding compound mitre saw for doing trim work when we get around to fancying up the house a bit. |
| 16:45.59 | elg | never underestimate the value of a mitre saw :) |
| 16:46.52 | levi | Oh, I appreciate it a great deal, having done all the trim work in my condo with a cheapo mitre box. |
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| 17:03.18 | levi | Hmm, a forum poster suggests that the brick dust would wreck a nice compound mitre saw's engine in short order. So, one like this could be my best bet: http://www.amazon.com/Northern-Industrial-Compound-Sliding-Miter/dp/B0000ERMV0 |
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| 17:38.16 | albino | Is there a conference play by play going here? |
| 17:44.36 | elg | try #utos |
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| 17:54.27 | levi | Yay, I get a hello world string now when I read() from my resource manager's /dev file. |
| 17:56.49 | ^Migs^ | ZOMG ITS MIGS |
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| 19:29.10 | levi | Is everyone at the conference or something? |
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| 19:43.34 | nick125 | Any ideas on how to send an X keypress through python? |
| 19:43.45 | thaddeusq | Lars-UT: Hello! |
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| 20:01.29 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 20:03.04 | ^Migs^ | what's a good open source Internet filter, something that could be deployed on a 'gateway' server? |
| 20:03.51 | Tene | squid, dansguardian, privoxy |
| 20:04.07 | neybar | I second dansguardian |
| 20:04.52 | goozbach | dansguardian |
| 20:05.12 | nick125 | dansguardian |
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| 20:20.54 | Lars-UT | thaddeusq: yo! |
| 20:21.39 | goozbach | umm screen and airssi? |
| 20:23.00 | Tene | airssi? |
| 20:26.10 | Lars-UT | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:26.21 | thaddeusq | pgp.mit.edu |
| 20:26.33 | Lars-UT | thaddeusq: thx |
| 20:26.45 | thaddeusq | it's replicated with several other key servers |
| 20:27.18 | Lars-UT | I think I have 2 keys there that are 8 or 9 years old... with orphaned email addresses. |
| 20:27.28 | Lars-UT | time to upload a new one. |
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| 20:27.43 | goozbach | irssi |
| 20:27.45 | goozbach | my bad |
| 20:31.57 | Tene | I was wondering if that was a typo or if it was some irssi extension or fork or something. |
| 20:39.01 | rsimpkins | I bought an iPod nano. It is being shipped from China. |
| 20:39.22 | rsimpkins | I wonder how much fedex from china costs? |
| 20:39.49 | *** mode/#utah [+o elg] by ChanServ |
| 20:43.44 | elg | \/merge jayce Jayce^ |
| 20:44.48 | levi | Heh, I'm playing random stuff off a music server. I just went from Ministry's "Psalm 69" to Erasure's "Chains of Love" |
| 20:44.53 | levi | Talk about song whiplash. |
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| 21:17.20 | elg | -lart vontrapp* |
| 21:18.44 | tensai | ~lart router failures |
| 21:18.44 | ibot | eats router failures's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti |
| 21:18.58 | elg | -lart tensai failure |
| 21:19.13 | tensai | ha! I haven't read /. in years |
| 21:19.20 | elg | brick oven pizza party tonight! |
| 21:26.51 | maquis | ~slashdot |
| 21:29.51 | tensai | no, it burns. it burns! |
| 21:29.56 | tensai | ~lart maquis |
| 21:29.56 | ibot | turns maquis into a lifesized tux doll |
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| 21:51.02 | into_311 | how many people in the IRC room are actually at the Utah Open Source conference right now? |
| 21:52.41 | thaddeusq | here |
| 21:54.32 | into_311 | which room? |
| 21:54.53 | thaddeusq | Gentoo |
| 21:55.07 | into_311 | cool then, do you like gentoo? or are you just there for the python lesson? |
| 21:55.20 | thaddeusq | I'm the room manager in here. |
| 21:55.55 | into_311 | what is the room manager? |
| 21:56.27 | thaddeusq | Make sure the presenter has everything they need |
| 21:57.04 | into_311 | cool then |
| 21:57.11 | into_311 | I'm in the distribution smackdown room ;) |
| 21:57.37 | thaddeusq | How's that? Over-run by Ubuntu zealots? |
| 21:57.39 | into_311 | it's turning into sort of a flame war in here though. we might have to get out the fire extinguisher or something |
| 21:57.43 | into_311 | hmm, sorta... |
| 21:58.17 | thaddeusq | How's the turn out? |
| 21:58.22 | into_311 | wifi wasn't working in the room here. so we were looking to setup an adhoc network and one guy who has a mac steps up to setup the adhoc network |
| 21:58.36 | into_311 | everybody in the whole room was bashing him, LOL |
| 21:58.42 | into_311 | yeah, pretty good |
| 21:58.50 | into_311 | chairs are full |
| 21:59.42 | into_311 | some good debates |
| 21:59.45 | thaddeusq | I just noticed my former boss is in here. |
| 22:00.05 | into_311 | oops |
| 22:00.10 | into_311 | is that good or bad? |
| 22:00.18 | thaddeusq | neither. just interesting. |
| 22:02.16 | into_311 | thats good |
| 22:03.13 | levi | Man, how useless is a 'distribution smackdown' at a conference? |
| 22:03.51 | thaddeusq | Is it useless if the room is full?? |
| 22:04.04 | levi | Um, yeah. |
| 22:04.39 | levi | Just shows the caliber of people you've got in attendance, or a lack of any real content elsewhere in the same timeframe. |
| 22:05.36 | thaddeusq | I don't think so. One thing that was talked about in a previous session that I went to is that people involved in an open community are passionate... |
| 22:05.58 | thaddeusq | A room full of people, to me, shows that they are passionate about their distro. |
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| 22:06.26 | levi | So? There will be zero content, just a bunch of passionate people wasting their time. |
| 22:07.22 | levi | A whole hoarde of passionate zealots accomplish a lot less than a mildly interested guy who sits down and solves a problem. |
| 22:07.46 | levi | Passion is useless if it doesn't motivate you to do useful things. |
| 22:08.00 | levi | And a 'distribution smackdown' is not a useful thing. |
| 22:08.23 | levi | In fact, it is an actively un-useful thing. |
| 22:09.06 | thaddeusq | I guess that depends on how you define "wasting time" |
| 22:09.07 | thaddeusq | in that case, most of what goes on in here is "wasting time" |
| 22:09.39 | levi | That's probably why I'm not there. |
| 22:09.51 | thaddeusq | I meant in this channel |
| 22:09.59 | levi | Well, sure. |
| 22:10.01 | thaddeusq | and you are here. |
| 22:10.37 | levi | Anyone who expects IRC to be anything other than a diversion is probably deluded. |
| 22:10.52 | thaddeusq | haha |
| 22:10.57 | levi | But #utah doesn't charge admission or pretend to be a serious resource for people. |
| 22:11.12 | levi | "The channel for content free discussion in Utah" |
| 22:11.26 | thaddeusq | so you're implying by that the UTOSC is a waste of money? |
| 22:11.59 | levi | I'm not there to judge the conference as a whole, but attending a 'distribution smackdown' would be a waste of money. |
| 22:12.21 | thaddeusq | You mean to tell me that you've never gone to a "paid" conference where you didn't have at least one session that was meant as a "diversion" just like #utah? |
| 22:13.14 | levi | I haven't been to many, but no, the only sessions I was aware of there had at least some useful content. |
| 22:13.33 | thaddeusq | I should note that I'm not in the distribution smackdown class. I'm in another class. |
| 22:14.12 | levi | Well, you kind of have to be where you are if you're the room manager, right? :) |
| 22:14.17 | thaddeusq | Just having been to many conferences in my career, I would say that everyone that I've been to had at least one session per day that was meant as a diversion. |
| 22:14.52 | thaddeusq | Actually I chose to be the room manager for this room because of the content of this class. |
| 22:15.24 | levi | I've been to three. The Embedded Systems conference, a sysadmin conference that I can't recall the name of, and a small one for the Open IB Alliance. |
| 22:15.43 | thaddeusq | I've never programmed in python and so I was interested in how python is laid out. |
| 22:17.07 | levi | Well, that's cool. It sounds like you're in a useful presentation. I'm just saying the distro smackdown is useless and counterproductive. |
| 22:17.41 | thaddeusq | I think it's interesting that the distribution smack down would have a full room when there is a class at the same time taught by Phil Windley about OpenID |
| 22:18.12 | levi | Again, I think it speaks to the caliber of people in attendance. |
| 22:18.45 | thaddeusq | Next year I hope you grace us with your presence. :) |
| 22:20.34 | levi | Well, I'm sure there are plenty of excellent people there, too. They're probably mostly presenting things and attending useful sessions. |
| 22:20.47 | thaddeusq | I should note that Phil Windley's class probably has more people in attendance than the Distribution session. Not every chair is full, but it's in a much bigger room. |
| 22:21.50 | levi | At least it gets the outspoken distro-zealots in a single room where they won't disrupt others. ;) |
| 22:22.05 | thaddeusq | That's for sure. |
| 22:22.46 | levi | Anyway, that's enough diversion for me for now. Have fun with python. |
| 22:24.35 | Zelut | thaddeusq: which one? |
| 22:24.50 | Zelut | I stepped into the distro throwdown, but there was no throwing to be had |
| 22:25.00 | thaddeusq | that's the one. |
| 22:26.39 | Tene | Perhaps there should be a sparring tournament, taking records on advocates of which distro are more competent at violence than others. |
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| 22:54.00 | klys | wow I'm still here |
| 22:54.26 | klys | internet access has been difficult recently |
| 22:56.01 | levi | That's unfortunate. |
| 22:56.13 | levi | You're not at UTOSC? |
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| 22:56.36 | klys | hmm, guess I got too busy locating jobs and dealing with the byu move. |
| 22:56.50 | klys | so, lost track of utosc. |
| 22:57.17 | klys | are you there? |
| 22:57.22 | levi | Nope. |
| 22:57.24 | levi | I'm at work. |
| 22:57.26 | klys | ok |
| 22:58.19 | levi | Heh, I crashed the network driver in QNX. Good thing I'm connected over the serial port. |
| 22:58.25 | klys | what's a good language for algorithmic formulation and implementation? |
| 22:58.37 | klys | algorithmic programming, I mean |
| 22:59.16 | klys | to do things like quicksort, paintbrushes, and reading tokens from files |
| 22:59.31 | levi | Do you want to implement your algorithms procedurally or functionally? |
| 22:59.43 | klys | well, what's the main difference |
| 23:00.06 | klys | because I think it's just that functions can do recursion |
| 23:00.14 | klys | bt I'm probably not right |
| 23:00.56 | klys | s/bt/though/ |
| 23:01.25 | levi | The main difference between functional and procedural programming is that there is no mutation in functional programming. |
| 23:01.43 | klys | you mean like polymorphism mutation? |
| 23:01.52 | levi | No, like assignment to variables. |
| 23:02.12 | klys | I don't think it's needed to make a big deal out of multiple inhericance's effect on polymorphism |
| 23:02.15 | klys | so |
| 23:02.36 | klys | the variables are more loosely typed? |
| 23:02.47 | levi | Typing has nothing to do with it. |
| 23:03.11 | levi | The question is whether you mutate variables or not. |
| 23:03.21 | klys | ok, so I'm assigning to a variable, and in this assignment there is a mutation from one storage method to another, is this what you mean |
| 23:04.10 | levi | You simply don't assign to variables in functional programming. You can bind names to values, but those bindings don't change afterward in the context of that binding. |
| 23:04.18 | klys | ok |
| 23:04.35 | klys | so it's more like a constant |
| 23:04.44 | klys | no |
| 23:04.52 | levi | So, if within a block you say that a = 4, a is just another name for 4, not a storage location that you can change the contents of. |
| 23:05.33 | klys | then with the functional part, you can call a function by saying f( a ) and get f( 4 ), how does this help |
| 23:05.38 | levi | The differences between how you implement algorithms functionally vs. procedurally stem from this difference. |
| 23:06.36 | klys | would functional programming be more for excel macros or similar? |
| 23:07.14 | levi | Functional programming is for anything you'd like to implement with it. |
| 23:07.53 | levi | It's not domain-specific; it's a way of approaching the task of writing a program. |
| 23:07.56 | klys | lemme see, within a block of code, you say: a = 4; it's like #define a 4 ,how does this help |
| 23:08.35 | levi | Name bindings are lexically scoped, so a is only 4 within that block. But to answer your question... |
| 23:08.56 | levi | Lack of mutation gives you some important properties that can make your program easier to reason about. |
| 23:09.32 | levi | First of all is referential transparency. The output of a function depends only upon its inputs, and for any given inputs, it always returns the same output. |
| 23:09.32 | klys | ok, relocating the block's data area would change a? |
| 23:10.06 | klys | so there are no state changes? |
| 23:10.55 | albino | wow, useful stuff in #utah, amazng |
| 23:10.57 | levi | There can be state changes in the overall system, but individual variable bindings do not change. |
| 23:11.05 | klys | when I was programming in assembly it was settling into a group of procedures where each important maybe one out of 5 had data |
| 23:11.37 | albino | levi: you looked at enchilada at all? |
| 23:11.53 | klys | so, variable bindings may not include dependencies on system status? |
| 23:11.58 | levi | albino: Not that I recall, but it sounds vaguely familiar. What is it? |
| 23:12.35 | levi | klys: It might help to take a few steps back and cover the foundations of functional programming. |
| 23:12.38 | albino | levi: A programming language that loves immutability |
| 23:12.46 | albino | more than haskell even |
| 23:13.46 | klys | or are the functions subject to a parameter-only scope |
| 23:14.31 | levi | Ahh, yeah, I looked at the enchilada page briefly once. |
| 23:15.03 | levi | klys: Functional programming is based on the lambda calculus, which is a mathematical system that has been around for quite a while. |
| 23:16.33 | klys | looking at the wikipedia, it would appear state change access is discouraged by the compiler |
| 23:17.09 | levi | The language consists of lambda expressions. An expression is a variable, an abstraction expression, or an application expression. |
| 23:17.51 | klys | go on |
| 23:18.13 | klys | I hadn't thought of variables as useful expressions much outside of [] |
| 23:19.30 | klys | as far as what would make a change from 4, anyway |
| 23:19.50 | levi | An abstraction expression looks like lambda x . e, where x is an identifier and e is an expression. |
| 23:20.13 | klys | and you define them first and call them later? |
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| 23:20.42 | levi | Yes, you have to create an abstraction before you can apply it. |
| 23:21.23 | levi | Applications are written as two adjacent expressions. |
| 23:21.27 | elg | finally. this is a good fire, didn't take much effort, and it should be dying down at just about the right time |
| 23:21.42 | klys | how hot is the approach? |
| 23:21.58 | elg | 12 |
| 23:22.10 | klys | better |
| 23:22.46 | levi | So, '(lambda x . x) y' is an application of the expression y to the abstraction lambda x . x |
| 23:23.00 | klys | ok |
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| 23:23.58 | levi | Now, what a abstraction does is to bind the identifier on the left of the . to the value that is applied to the abstraction. |
| 23:25.00 | levi | So if you were to evaluate '(lambda x . x) y' you would bind the identifier x to the value of y within the expression on the right side of the . in the abstraction. |
| 23:26.23 | levi | In this case, the value of y would be bound to the symbol 'x'. The expression on the right side is just 'x', so the whole expression would evaluate to the value bound to x, which is the value that was bound to y. |
| 23:27.02 | levi | Of course, the only way to bind values is through abstraction expressions. In the above example, y is a free variable; there's no abstraction expression that tells us what it's bound to. |
| 23:27.34 | levi | Inside the abstraction (on the right hand side) x is a bound variable. |
| 23:28.21 | klys | ok, I'm still here |
| 23:28.54 | levi | Anyway, that's all there is to lambda calculus, but it turns out it's sufficiently powerful to express any computable function. |
| 23:29.00 | elg | oh, this will *not* do |
| 23:29.14 | elg | the homework submission system she has set up is completely crazy |
| 23:29.32 | levi | You have to resort to some rather interesting encodings to represent things like numbers and boolean values. |
| 23:29.39 | elg | it renames the uploaded file to FirstnameLastname and keeps the extension (one extension, so a .tar.gz ends up with .gz) |
| 23:29.47 | klys | so, how do you multiple |
| 23:29.49 | klys | y |
| 23:29.57 | Tene | elg: set up a system with a simpler interface to manipulate the complex system. |
| 23:30.05 | elg | it's not complex, it's just braindead |
| 23:30.14 | klys | s/multiple/multiply/ |
| 23:30.28 | elg | but I think I will write my own. she said I could if I didn't like it. |
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| 23:31.48 | levi | klys: Well, that gets pretty complicated in the bare lambda calculus. Suffice it to say, you can define integers, integer operations, etc. solely through the stuff I discussed so far. |
| 23:32.21 | klys | ok, how do you int it = 0; for(; it < 10; ++it ); |
| 23:32.37 | levi | So let's talk about an extended lambda calculus that already has integers and operations on them. |
| 23:32.44 | klys | ok |
| 23:33.17 | levi | Also, abstractions that bind multiple names at the same time. That's a convenient shorthand. |
| 23:34.01 | klys | do they bind them to differing expressions |
| 23:34.22 | levi | Here's an example of what I mean: |
| 23:35.01 | levi | (lambda x y z . x + y * z) would be the same as (lambda x . (lambda y . (lambda z . x + y * z))) |
| 23:37.15 | levi | (lambda x y z . x + y * z) 1 2 3 => 1 + 2 * 3 => 7 |
| 23:37.25 | klys | ok |
| 23:37.25 | levi | Where => means 'evaluates to' |
| 23:37.46 | klys | is x then usable as 7 |
| 23:38.01 | levi | Only within the abstraction. |
| 23:38.07 | levi | Er, no. |
| 23:38.12 | levi | x is never bound to 7. |
| 23:38.29 | levi | x is 1 |
| 23:38.36 | klys | ok |
| 23:38.50 | levi | And only within the lambda expression. |
| 23:39.08 | levi | variable bindings only exist within the lambda expressions. |
| 23:39.09 | klys | so, there is a stack or queue? |
| 23:39.46 | klys | I think I would prefer a language where stack switching is still possible |
| 23:39.48 | levi | The implementation details are irrelevant to this discusion. |
| 23:39.54 | klys | ok |
| 23:40.15 | klys | algorithmic functional language syntax |
| 23:40.25 | levi | OK, so you asked how to loop a certain number of times. |
| 23:40.32 | klys | cool |
| 23:42.03 | klys | saying: lambda x y z . x + y * z, does this abstaction have a convenient application |
| 23:42.32 | klys | or can you name the abstraction as well as the parameters |
| 23:42.49 | levi | In order to display that in a straightforward manner, I'm going to handwave over a couple of other things, a global namespace and conditionals. |
| 23:43.01 | klys | or maybe, changin the parameters just changes the value of something like (lambda?) |
| 23:43.19 | klys | s/handwave/handweave/ |
| 23:44.19 | levi | We'll add global bindigs with (define x . e) where x is a name and e is a lambda calculus expression. The result of evaluating it is to bind a name to an expression that stays in a global environment of bindings that subsequent evaluations will take into account. |
| 23:45.18 | levi | And we'll add conditionals with (if e1 e2 e3) where e1 is an expression that evaluates to a boolean, e1 is evaluated if true and e2 is evaluated if false. |
| 23:45.37 | levi | Now, a looper: |
| 23:47.52 | levi | (define looper . (lambda x . (if (x > 0) (looper (x - 1)) 0))) |
| 23:49.15 | klys | looks like things are usually recursive |
| 23:50.15 | levi | Well, recursion is the only option for iterating, since you need a new value bound to the variable, and a new application (in the lambda calculus sense) is the only way to get that. |
| 23:50.31 | findlay-w | ~lambda levi |
| 23:51.39 | klys | so, in recursion, I run the call stack up until all relevant values have been calculated, then do the math |
| 23:52.30 | levi | Well, the only math in this expression was evaluated before the recursive call. |
| 23:53.00 | klys | to determine the initial x |
| 23:53.36 | klys | or, it runs the recursion in forwards instead of actually doing C recursion |
| 23:54.07 | klys | is this anything like lisp? |
| 23:54.40 | levi | If you evaluate (looper 2), you get (if (2 > 0) (looper (2 - 1)) 0) => (if (2 > 0) (looper 1) 0) => (if (2 > 0) (if (1 > 0) ... |
| 23:55.06 | klys | if I were still making theoretical demands I could come up with a number of qualities I would like the syntax to possess |
| 23:55.34 | klys | yes, it seems interpreted |
| 23:55.47 | levi | It doesn't have to be interpreted. |
| 23:55.50 | klys | ok |
| 23:56.14 | klys | if not interpreted, would it do C recursion or infix evaluation? |
| 23:56.32 | levi | Lambda calculus is a theoretical construct. I've handwaved it a lot closer to Scheme because it's too awkward to do straight lambda calculus. |
| 23:56.48 | levi | Your question tells me you're not understanding what I'm saying. |
| 23:57.20 | klys | I'm liking the idea of implementing the recursion by evaluating the recursed-to part first |
| 23:57.27 | levi | I'm describing the semantics of functional programming languages. Infix vs. prefix is a purely syntactic matter. |
| 23:57.41 | levi | You can dress this stuff up in whatever syntax you like. |
| 23:57.49 | klys | which is what I was describing as fixed |
| 23:58.26 | klys | I think with the right compiler you could also implement the above construct either way |
| 23:58.57 | levi | I think you're confused, but I'm still not sure what you're talking about. |
| 23:59.39 | levi | There are different processes for evaluating expressions, but that doesn't change their meaning. |
| 23:59.47 | klys | ok |
| 23:59.50 | klys | to you |
| 23:59.59 | klys | how they show up in the code |