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| 02:01.48 | elg | ~rlart |
| 02:01.48 | ibot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs tiwula |
| 02:10.38 | elg | so I wrapped my oven in heavy-duty tinfoil. how spacey :) |
| 02:10.51 | elg | I'll probably fire it friday, see if that makes a difference |
| 02:11.16 | levi | So, what's the deal with the Chinese-manufactured DVDs of tv shows? Are they legit? |
| 02:11.53 | elg | if not (or not enough) I'll get me some unfaced fiberglass and another box of tinfoil, and make a fiberglass tinfoil sandwich |
| 02:16.12 | levi | Did you post the plans you followed to build the oven on your blog? |
| 02:21.31 | levi | I see you posted plans, but I don't see any followup in the search engine. |
| 02:29.19 | levi | I want to see pictures. |
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| 02:44.08 | Supaplex|roaming | silly opera. how am I suppose to resize a window (macos) I can't reach the bottom left corner of? the + button on the title bar has no effect. |
| 03:39.56 | levi | Aaagh. I need to intercept these stupid junk catalogs before my wife can get ahold of them. |
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| 04:41.06 | *** join/#utah decriptor1 (n=sshaw@sshaw.fttp.xmission.com) |
| 04:42.42 | levi | Supaplex|roaming: Did you not have it installed before? |
| 04:43.53 | decriptor1 | everyone signed up for the conference? |
| 04:48.18 | fozzmoo | http://www.engrish.com/recent_detail.php?imagename=with-your-private.jpg |
| 04:48.23 | fozzmoo | decriptor1: Think so. |
| 04:49.48 | Supaplex|roaming | levi: not since I reinstalled |
| 04:50.04 | decriptor1 | Think leaves room for failure :P |
| 04:50.14 | decriptor1 | This conference is just getting better and better |
| 04:50.20 | decriptor1 | I'm really excited |
| 04:52.31 | fozzmoo | decriptor1: I'm pretty sure I've got 4 people registered to go. |
| 04:52.35 | fozzmoo | And then me. |
| 04:55.45 | decriptor1 | awesome |
| 04:58.40 | Supaplex|roaming | GAH |
| 04:58.45 | Supaplex|roaming | ~lart crumcast |
| 04:58.45 | ibot | follow's crumcast with a gauntlet and ... scratch ... HUMILIATION |
| 05:04.22 | Supaplex|roaming | wow voyager. that was ... laughable. |
| 05:15.26 | tensai | Jayce^: what's up with this? |
| 05:15.29 | tensai | 2007-08-28 23:09:47 H=plug.org (orodruin.plug.org) [63.108.71.211] temporarily rejected MAIL <wjcorrosive@mcgenterprisesonline.com>: Could not complete sender verify |
| 05:15.47 | tensai | Jayce^: did you set us up the bomb? |
| 06:28.41 | atoponce | Supaplex|roaming: here's a pastebin when trying to install: http://pastebin.ca/674402 |
| 06:28.54 | atoponce | looked through bugs.debian.org, and i don't see anything |
| 06:29.24 | atoponce | it seems to me that either they've pulled nm-applet out of network-manager-gnome, which i can't find, or there are package version problems |
| 06:30.56 | atoponce | any help would be appreciated, as the applet won't start in the tray |
| 06:31.08 | atoponce | and i can't figure out how to get it started |
| 06:35.35 | fozzmoo | atoponce: Is the NetworkManager service running? |
| 06:35.58 | atoponce | fozzmoo: yes |
| 06:38.12 | fozzmoo | Looks like your distribution's repository has some stuff out of sync. |
| 06:38.13 | atoponce | network-manager is installed, i just don't know how to get at the applet without network-manager-gnome |
| 06:38.26 | atoponce | yeah. that's what i'm thinking |
| 06:39.07 | fozzmoo | When I do an 'rpm -ql NetworkManager-gnome' on my Fedora 7 box... |
| 06:39.19 | fozzmoo | nm-applet is in /usr/bin/nm-applet |
| 06:39.35 | fozzmoo | BTW: It's version 0.6.5-7 |
| 06:40.10 | fozzmoo | Does aptitude refresh a cache of available packages each time it's run? |
| 06:41.04 | atoponce | yeah. when an 'aptitude update' is ran |
| 06:41.14 | fozzmoo | Did you do that? |
| 06:41.40 | atoponce | of course |
| 06:41.45 | fozzmoo | Ok. Just checking. |
| 06:41.49 | atoponce | running sid, it's a daily task. :) |
| 06:42.41 | fozzmoo | Next thing I'd do is check bug reports... I'd imagine anyone else currently trying to use NetworkManager in gnome while running sid is having similiar issues. :) |
| 06:43.29 | fozzmoo | OTOH, might be fixed within a few hours. Someone probably pushed network-manager into the tree and didn't push network-manager-gnome yet. |
| 06:43.32 | atoponce | that's what i'd think |
| 07:06.01 | atoponce | fozzmoo: looks like there are updates coming. i've downgraded the network-manager package untill the new dependencies come in |
| 07:06.12 | fozzmoo | neet. |
| 07:06.39 | atoponce | seems to have solved my problem anyway... at 1 in the morning |
| 07:07.19 | fozzmoo | :) |
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| 12:03.02 | maquis | jsmith: what are you doing up at this hour? |
| 12:08.30 | jsmith | maquis: Working! |
| 12:08.48 | jsmith | maquis: Of course, it's a 8:00am here... so it's not an obscene hour here like it is where you are |
| 12:09.43 | jsmith | maquis: So the question should be, what are *you* doing up at this hour? |
| 12:11.32 | maquis | waiting for some other people to fix some stuff |
| 12:18.10 | jsmith | Ah, the joys... |
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| 13:28.23 | ^Migs^ | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5371500.stm |
| 13:32.40 | harleypig | Cool trick: sudo !! |
| 13:33.23 | harleypig | err ... dog's penis? |
| 13:33.56 | harleypig | Donkey penis?! |
| 13:35.26 | harleypig | omg: "What better way to secure a contract than over a steaming penis fondue." |
| 13:48.47 | ^Migs^ | hahahaha |
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| 14:38.30 | goozbach | http://echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/star_trek_insp.html |
| 14:38.41 | goozbach | star treck inspriational posters |
| 14:38.43 | ^Migs^ | blocked for porn |
| 14:38.47 | ^Migs^ | Star Trek porn? |
| 14:39.10 | ^Migs^ | well, whatever floats your boat |
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| 14:49.57 | klys | 'lo |
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| 15:02.24 | klys | ...will be with you again; I, will be with ... |
| 15:03.59 | elg | it came to me in the shower |
| 15:04.35 | fozzmoo | elg: Ahhh, yes, the contemplation chamber. |
| 15:04.54 | jsmith | elg: I thought it came from outer space? |
| 15:05.05 | *** join/#utah Shadowwire (n=shadowwi@mail.swplumb.com) |
| 15:05.09 | klys | yo yo yo |
| 15:05.12 | elg | if i have to get fiberglass (will try one with pyro skill and tin foil wrap first) i can wrap the unfaced fiberglass insulation in tinfoil |
| 15:05.15 | Shadowwire | sup sup sup? |
| 15:05.35 | elg | not just lay tinfoil on top, but wrap the batts |
| 15:05.38 | Shadowwire | Sweet. |
| 15:05.50 | jsmith | elg: Sounds like a lot of work |
| 15:06.01 | Shadowwire | Seems like a lot of work. For what? |
| 15:06.02 | elg | not if you get the 2 ft wide tinfoil stuff. |
| 15:06.17 | elg | i only needed three sheets to wrap the whole oven |
| 15:06.18 | fozzmoo | The Costco tinfoil. |
| 15:06.27 | Shadowwire | What is the point? |
| 15:06.30 | elg | insulation |
| 15:06.52 | Shadowwire | yes, but why wrap it in tinfoil. |
| 15:06.54 | elg | i'm (hopelessly?) optimistic that just tinfoil will make enough difference though |
| 15:06.57 | klys | does your house get hot and then it wouldn't anymore? |
| 15:07.19 | elg | Shadowwire: why wrap the insulation in tinfoil? have you ever played with fiberglass insulation? |
| 15:07.23 | elg | don't want to leave that exposed |
| 15:07.45 | Shadowwire | Tinfoil is a poor temperiture barrier. |
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| 15:07.53 | elg | bad to skin, inhale. plus if it gets rained on it will lose insulation power |
| 15:08.03 | elg | tinfoil is a great radiation barrier |
| 15:08.19 | Shadowwire | And, Yes i play with fibreglass insulation all the time. |
| 15:08.29 | elg | cool. how much does about 12 feet cost? |
| 15:08.38 | Shadowwire | I think the best solution is ... Shower? |
| 15:08.47 | RyanE | the Tinfoil-backed fiberglass deflects 20% more alien mind-probe energy. |
| 15:09.01 | Shadowwire | I cant argue with that. |
| 15:09.10 | Keighvin | I can. |
| 15:09.23 | elg | Shadowwire: you don't shower? |
| 15:09.58 | Shadowwire | Where did that come from? (Yes I take my yearly showers in feb) |
| 15:10.49 | RyanE | elg: At least fiberglass doesn't break down in water, so it can dry out pretty well. |
| 15:10.52 | elg | i think it came from the internet |
| 15:11.03 | elg | RyanE: yeah, it doesn't retain the water either |
| 15:11.21 | RyanE | yeah, as long as it's well drained, I think outside it shouldn't need wrap. |
| 15:11.22 | elg | but drying it out would take precious energy, and it's supposed to be preventing energy loss :) |
| 15:11.30 | RyanE | I assume you're talking about the oven. |
| 15:11.30 | RyanE | :) |
| 15:11.42 | elg | the drainage isn't the bad part though, it's that I don't want it exposed for my son to play with |
| 15:11.48 | elg | and it's kinda ugly too :) |
| 15:11.53 | RyanE | Yeah, that's an issue. |
| 15:12.13 | klys | fiberglass is usually half-wrapped in paper, and exposed to rain it gets smelly |
| 15:12.15 | elg | but i'm keeping my fingers crossed for the radiation barrier |
| 15:12.22 | RyanE | I would also try to shield it from rain from above, keep the drainage good, and not worry about it. |
| 15:12.29 | RyanE | I wouldn't get the paper-wrap kind for outside. |
| 15:12.32 | Shadowwire | What are you insulating? |
| 15:12.41 | RyanE | brick oven |
| 15:12.41 | elg | http://hans.fugal.net/brick |
| 15:14.08 | Shadowwire | Why do you need to insulate it. Seems like thats what the brick is for. |
| 15:14.39 | elg | the brick is to hold the heat and release it into the inside of the oven |
| 15:14.49 | fozzmoo | elg: YOu're in New Mexico. Can't you just put your food on your patio or something? |
| 15:14.53 | elg | if it releases half the heat into the outside air, you lose that much cooking capacity |
| 15:14.57 | RyanE | fozzmoo: hah! |
| 15:15.00 | elg | fozzmoo: that works for eggs, yeah |
| 15:15.11 | RyanE | and the warm-up time is decreased with insulation, no? |
| 15:15.14 | Shadowwire | Thats why you have more than one layer of brick. |
| 15:15.50 | herlo | RyanE: ping |
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| 15:15.55 | RyanE | herlo: pong |
| 15:15.56 | elg | RyanE: that too |
| 15:16.03 | elg | Shadowwire: ah, but insulation is cheaper than brick |
| 15:16.07 | RyanE | elg: you're too ambitious. |
| 15:16.11 | elg | at least, the cheap stuff is |
| 15:16.18 | herlo | RyanE: so we're gonna start up LardWars in about 2-3 weeks. Want to see if you can beat us all? |
| 15:16.22 | elg | RyanE: no, I'm not ambitious enough, so I have to be creative |
| 15:16.32 | RyanE | herlo: I just started with my former co-workers. |
| 15:16.34 | elg | if I were ambitious (and rich) I'd build a full-blown oven out of plans and not have to think at all |
| 15:16.35 | Shadowwire | So, Where do you get the structural integrity? |
| 15:16.40 | RyanE | herlo: like this week. :) |
| 15:16.51 | herlo | RyanE: okay. Be that way! |
| 15:16.53 | herlo | :) |
| 15:16.54 | RyanE | elg: I'm talking about just baking bread... :) |
| 15:16.55 | elg | Shadowwire: structural integrity? bricks are pretty rigid |
| 15:16.58 | herlo | RyanE: did you change jobs? |
| 15:17.06 | RyanE | herlo: what's the penalty / prize? |
| 15:17.20 | RyanE | herlo: only 2 years ago... The original was when I was at a different company. |
| 15:17.20 | elg | RyanE: oh, yeah. well for that I may agree. so far I've not even come close to getting anything like what I get out of the oven from the brick oven |
| 15:17.31 | herlo | $100 competition / $50 personal |
| 15:17.34 | elg | but since I already have the bricks, it's fun to try things out |
| 15:17.36 | Shadowwire | If you have only one layer teres not much to hold it together. |
| 15:17.49 | RyanE | herlo: we're doing the one who loses the least has to invite all the others over for a nice dinner. |
| 15:17.49 | elg | people with full-blown ovens claim it's totally awesome |
| 15:17.54 | herlo | RyanE: oh, so you are still at Control4. When are you coming to game night then? |
| 15:17.55 | elg | but we'll see |
| 15:18.10 | RyanE | herlo: Last Night. :) |
| 15:18.14 | herlo | RyanE: that's an option. we've not agreed on terms though people are starting to ask |
| 15:18.17 | RyanE | herlo: unfortunately, I had to mow the lawn. |
| 15:18.26 | herlo | RyanE: you tried? |
| 15:18.34 | RyanE | herlo: I was going to, but real life intervened. |
| 15:18.52 | RyanE | by the time I had finished mowing, it was 9:15, and I was dirty and sweaty. |
| 15:18.55 | Shadowwire | Are you going to heat this oven with wood first, or Gas, or someting else. |
| 15:19.04 | herlo | RyanE: I didn't get there til almost 9:40 |
| 15:19.13 | elg | Shadowwire: you wouldn't want to play hockey on top of it |
| 15:19.14 | herlo | RyanE: but I understand that you are a lazy bastard |
| 15:19.16 | herlo | :) |
| 15:19.17 | elg | but it holds itself up |
| 15:19.18 | RyanE | herlo: if your terms are not egregious, I would consider participating in two.. :) |
| 15:19.25 | RyanE | herlo: you know me well. |
| 15:19.41 | herlo | RyanE: I'll let you know when its starting. Do you think you can win two? |
| 15:19.44 | Shadowwire | If you made it small and thick you could heat it with natural gas. |
| 15:19.52 | RyanE | herlo: I jsut have to not *lose* two.. :) |
| 15:20.00 | herlo | RyanE: true that |
| 15:20.02 | RyanE | this decade. |
| 15:20.32 | Shadowwire | Heated with wood would have to be larger. |
| 15:21.35 | RyanE | herlo: I'm down 1.32% in 8 days... My goal this round is 8%... |
| 15:23.14 | klys | last game tounament I participated in was an informal halo match, 8 players |
| 15:23.46 | klys | there's been a fair bit of starcraft going on around here though |
| 15:24.05 | klys | the guy who gave me a ride yesterday was playing FF7 |
| 15:24.12 | Shadowwire | Starcraft 2. Thats all. |
| 15:24.22 | Shadowwire | I cant wait. |
| 15:24.37 | klys | I can't wait until I can run it. get me a copy |
| 15:25.00 | RyanE | meeting time... later. |
| 15:25.30 | Shadowwire | anyone here play Battlefield2 |
| 15:25.36 | elg | ~distract RyanE |
| 15:25.37 | ibot | ACTION puts on a brunet wig and saunters past RyanE with a cold beer in her hand. "Hello, sailor! Wanna go for a ride?" |
| 15:25.41 | klys | only if that's all |
| 15:26.07 | Shadowwire | thats odd. |
| 15:27.12 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@63.110.13.126) |
| 15:27.43 | klys | hello sinhue |
| 15:27.48 | klys | sinuhe |
| 15:29.02 | sinuhe | klys: hello |
| 15:29.13 | klys | are you working on anything |
| 15:29.25 | sinuhe | klys: When am I not working? :-) |
| 15:29.38 | klys | care to share |
| 15:30.40 | sinuhe | klys: Why do you ask? |
| 15:31.01 | klys | since shadow is gone and I have nothing much to talk about |
| 15:31.31 | sinuhe | Ah...I'm actually in the middle of something, but can always glance over from time to time. |
| 15:31.52 | klys | ok, let me know if you're in it later |
| 15:31.58 | Shadowwire | Gone where? |
| 15:32.06 | klys | hmm, I couldn't tell |
| 15:32.28 | goozbach | howdy sinuhe |
| 15:32.32 | goozbach | where ya at this week? |
| 15:32.45 | sinuhe | goozbach! |
| 15:32.47 | sinuhe | LA |
| 15:32.52 | goozbach | White house? |
| 15:32.58 | sinuhe | Not yet |
| 15:33.07 | goozbach | say hi to the manager guy for me |
| 15:33.29 | klys | I hear there are some good museums in LA |
| 15:33.49 | Shadowwire | I hear there are some good riots in LA. |
| 15:34.06 | sinuhe | goozbach: of course |
| 15:34.25 | sinuhe | goozbach: Did I mention a couple of guys from your 033 class are here? |
| 15:34.42 | goozbach | my 033? |
| 15:34.44 | goozbach | cool |
| 15:34.52 | goozbach | you're teaching them? |
| 15:34.54 | goozbach | cool |
| 15:34.55 | sinuhe | Including that guy you couldn't let in. I nearly ran into the same problem with him. |
| 15:35.01 | goozbach | oh boy |
| 15:35.16 | goozbach | tell them I say hi |
| 15:35.16 | sinuhe | goozbach: I'm on my third class now and have already proctered an exam. |
| 15:35.25 | goozbach | 253 then? |
| 15:35.35 | goozbach | or 133? |
| 15:35.35 | sinuhe | goozbach: not yet |
| 15:38.21 | Keighvin | ~lart Jayce^ |
| 15:38.21 | ibot | forces Jayce^ to use Outlook Express |
| 15:38.28 | Jayce^ | ooooh.. |
| 15:38.33 | Jayce^ | ~kill Keighvin |
| 15:38.34 | ibot | ACTION shoots a hyper-charged fluxpositrino gun at Keighvin |
| 15:39.14 | Keighvin | Note, that while he shot AT me, there was no indication that his target was actually hit - much less damaged. |
| 15:39.48 | Shadowwire | ~eat both combatants |
| 15:39.49 | ibot | ACTION eats both combatants and falls over dead |
| 15:39.52 | Jayce^ | just distracting you, then making you look at nude harleypig pictures... much more effective |
| 15:40.47 | Keighvin | It's just harley. It's not like he's got anything on goatse or tubgirl. |
| 15:40.55 | Keighvin | I mean, he's even more tame than Ouchie the Clown. |
| 15:41.23 | Shadowwire | you sound experienced in this area. |
| 15:41.27 | Jayce^ | Keighvin, harleypig is tubgirl :) |
| 15:41.40 | levi | Here's a serious WTF: http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=17262 |
| 15:41.41 | Keighvin | Now THAT would be a sight to see. |
| 15:42.27 | Jayce^ | levi, I'll only watch it if it's the same graphics quality as the version on my HP48gx |
| 15:42.30 | Keighvin | Shadowwire: I've been online long enough to think that, "www? wtf? That's like the lamest prefix ever. And good grief, you have to download a helper app to look at HTML? I'll stick with gopher, thanks." |
| 15:43.05 | ^Migs^ | Cerenzie calls the new script by Marc Gottlieb "Gladiator meets Mad Max." The film is set 25 years in the future and includes a Las Vegas suspended in mid-air. |
| 15:43.13 | ^Migs^ | an impressive accomplishment for only 25 years |
| 15:44.04 | Keighvin | But if any place could pull it off, it'd be Vegas. |
| 15:44.10 | Keighvin | Even if they only use mirrors. |
| 15:44.19 | Shadowwire | That must be it. |
| 15:44.34 | klys | keighvin: so, do you have a gopher client |
| 15:44.47 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 15:44.56 | Keighvin | I bet Sigfried and Copperfield shack up after Roy dies, and they spend all their time doing industrial illusion installations like that. |
| 15:45.20 | klys | even copied files with it before |
| 15:45.37 | Keighvin | klys: I use lynx's rudimentary support for the gopher protocol, but I haven't had cause to for several years. |
| 15:45.45 | levi | Mmm, I miss gopher. |
| 15:46.21 | Keighvin | NASA's general information shell was at 192.149.89.61 |
| 15:46.29 | Keighvin | Ah, the days of memorized IP addresses. |
| 15:47.04 | Keighvin | I'll avoid waxing too nostalgic though, or somebody's going to start doing handshake charades - trying to wistle the 300 baud connect or something. |
| 15:47.38 | Shadowwire | Things are so much simpler these days, and more complex at the same time... ? |
| 15:47.44 | levi | I mostly wandered around gopher to find interesting files and new MUDs. |
| 15:48.05 | klys | yes, the world has abandoned the complexities of itself |
| 15:48.10 | levi | Also, archie was cool. |
| 15:48.49 | klys | ok, http://hnb.sf.net/ |
| 15:51.10 | klys | http://downloads.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/hnb/hnb-1.5-win32.zip |
| 15:51.29 | klys | be sure to edit the .hnbrc file if you want to use it on win32 |
| 15:54.58 | Keighvin | Lets not forget BBSs. |
| 15:55.02 | Keighvin | Lots of good stuff there. |
| 15:55.53 | klys | yes, my favorite was rbbs-pc, though a lot of people liked wwiv |
| 15:57.20 | klys | galactic warzone, trade wars 2002, ... |
| 15:57.31 | Jayce^ | you started with a planet, controlled production/tax,etc.. then added planets and attacked others |
| 15:58.01 | ^Migs^ | Trade Wars 2002 was one of the best |
| 15:58.07 | ^Migs^ | plenty of Telnet BBSs still run it |
| 15:58.16 | ^Migs^ | and of course, Legend of the Red Dragon |
| 15:58.20 | klys | I would like to know of a utah telnet bbs |
| 15:58.28 | ^Migs^ | don't remember Galactic Warzone, though |
| 15:58.31 | ^Migs^ | there was the Planets game |
| 15:58.32 | ^Migs^ | that was awesome |
| 15:58.51 | ^Migs^ | also made by the maker of Legend of the Red Dragon, incidentally |
| 15:58.56 | ^Migs^ | did anyone play The Pit? |
| 15:59.03 | ^Migs^ | only worked on WWIV, IIRC |
| 15:59.23 | klys | me, no |
| 16:01.40 | Jayce^ | klys, there is one that gets run at byu, their list has the info |
| 16:01.53 | klys | the uug mailing list? |
| 16:01.55 | Jayce^ | and beandog has the Green dragon (web'd version) |
| 16:01.56 | Jayce^ | yeah |
| 16:02.02 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I've played that one |
| 16:02.26 | ^Migs^ | the Green Dragon, I mean, not the BYU BBS |
| 16:03.56 | ^Migs^ | http://www.rtsoft.com/ |
| 16:04.14 | ^Migs^ | guy who made LORD and Planets. Also made Dink Smallwood, which is a great little RPG. |
| 16:09.52 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 16:21.08 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@65.89.234.66) |
| 16:25.40 | levi | Hmm, C varargs functions are kind of evil. |
| 16:26.21 | elg | kind of? |
| 16:26.25 | elg | dracula was kind of evil |
| 16:27.15 | Shadowwire | Yea, all he did was kill thousands of turks and put their heads on spikes lining the road. |
| 16:28.34 | levi | Well, thank goodness for vsyslog and vprintf, anyway. |
| 16:28.48 | fozzmoo | levi: That should be on a t-shirt. :) |
| 16:28.56 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 16:29.04 | elg | speak of the devil |
| 16:29.06 | Shadowwire | which part? |
| 16:29.12 | Keighvin | The pointy bits. |
| 16:29.27 | Shadowwire | I see. . . |
| 16:30.09 | elg | it's days like this that I wish some idiots hadn't destroyed the vending machines in this building |
| 16:30.19 | fozzmoo | Destroyed? |
| 16:30.28 | fozzmoo | Are they testing weapons of snack destruction? |
| 16:30.36 | beandog | oy. |
| 16:30.39 | beandog | fozzmoo, bad. |
| 16:31.08 | fozzmoo | beandog: Well, you know... elg is in New Mexico... where they do those kinds of things. |
| 16:31.14 | Keighvin | Besides, Harley was nowhere near them. |
| 16:31.52 | klys | shadowwire: how's business |
| 16:32.19 | Shadowwire | BOOMING! |
| 16:32.24 | klys | cool |
| 16:32.28 | Shadowwire | sorry |
| 16:32.39 | Keighvin | ~nuke Shadowwire |
| 16:32.40 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at Shadowwire ... B☢☢M! |
| 16:32.41 | klys | you're doing a good job, I'm sure |
| 16:32.47 | Shadowwire | Didnt mean to yell. |
| 16:33.10 | Shadowwire | !perry |
| 16:33.12 | UtahBot | Shadowwire: Error: "perry" is not a valid command. |
| 16:33.12 | klys | BA?XA?A?XA?M |
| 16:33.15 | fozzmoo | Shadowwire: What's the biz? |
| 16:33.38 | Shadowwire | Selling plumbing supplys |
| 16:33.46 | Shadowwire | pedaling pipe. |
| 16:34.09 | Keighvin | klys: on a gui client like xchat those extended characters map to little round radiation symbols, as substituted for O's in this case. |
| 16:34.29 | klys | utf8 ? |
| 16:34.47 | Keighvin | At least you're not pedaling files. |
| 16:34.51 | klys | I'm sure I could get a utf8 consolefont, just haven't dealt it out yet |
| 16:34.52 | Keighvin | klys: probably. |
| 16:35.08 | fozzmoo | Ahhh. Pipe pushin. |
| 16:35.16 | fozzmoo | Shadowwire: In Utah? |
| 16:35.22 | klys | cedar city |
| 16:35.39 | Shadowwire | just give away all my secrets klys. |
| 16:35.46 | fozzmoo | Cool. |
| 16:35.53 | fozzmoo | klys: You in Cedar too? |
| 16:36.05 | klys | no, provo next to byu |
| 16:36.06 | Shadowwire | Im not in sales however. (as you may have guessed) |
| 16:36.18 | fozzmoo | Shadowwire: You coming to UTOSC? |
| 16:36.22 | beandog | mm, cedar city ftw. |
| 16:37.37 | Shadowwire | I would like to, but no. |
| 16:39.25 | fozzmoo | ~Shadowwire |
| 16:39.31 | fozzmoo | ~lart Shadowwire |
| 16:39.31 | ibot | pushes the wall down onto Shadowwire whilst whistling innocently |
| 16:39.48 | Shadowwire | Im glad there was a window there. |
| 16:39.52 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 16:49.43 | klys | no, I haven't ever run diff/patch on an ascii hnb file |
| 16:50.04 | klys | no, not from perl |
| 16:50.35 | ^Migs^ | http://youtube.com/watch?v=L1lKyCjeLJA |
| 16:55.21 | klys | well, this is a laptop system, and doesn't have lamp components installed, so mostly this is an example for starters; down to l for now |
| 16:57.21 | Shadowwire | klys: What exactly are you doing? |
| 16:57.59 | klys | the thing I wanted you to do when you left, ls /etc > file; emacs -nw file, hit C-k twice and C-y, sort it out |
| 16:58.17 | klys | yours is way different I'm sure |
| 16:58.31 | Shadowwire | what does everyone think of Income tax? |
| 16:58.45 | Shadowwire | ~lart the IRS |
| 16:58.45 | ibot | changes the IRS's permissions to 0777 and tells the world |
| 16:59.01 | klys | file as head of household if you want to understand how to itemize thoroughly? |
| 16:59.28 | klys | a heavy progressive income tax has been made slightly less progressive? |
| 17:00.03 | Shadowwire | Itemizing is only usefull if you make more than 24k yr. |
| 17:00.32 | Shadowwire | What does income tax pay for. Anyone know? |
| 17:05.42 | *** join/#utah jsmith (n=jsmith@000-143-916.area3.spcsdns.net) |
| 17:10.05 | klys | there's a pie chart, I was thinking 1/5 interest, 1/3 defense, 1/5 SS, but that just gets the math all wrong |
| 17:10.25 | Shadowwire | in 1895 the U.S. Supreme Court decided that income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution. |
| 17:11.07 | Shadowwire | Social programs is the answer. |
| 17:12.41 | goozbach | we should all go form a utopian civilization ath the bottom of the ocean |
| 17:14.52 | Tene | best idea ever. |
| 17:17.49 | tensai | but then who will pollute the atmosphere? |
| 17:18.13 | Keighvin | I'll do it. |
| 17:18.40 | Jayce^ | yeah, Keighvin needs to start buying carbon offsets after lunch everyday.. |
| 17:20.20 | fozzmoo | goozbach: You see the URL I sent you? |
| 17:20.34 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: You see the URL I sent YOU? |
| 17:20.44 | Jayce^ | ME? :) |
| 17:20.45 | Jayce^ | yes |
| 17:20.49 | fozzmoo | You like? |
| 17:20.52 | Jayce^ | funny |
| 17:20.59 | fozzmoo | I enjoyed it. |
| 17:30.49 | Jayce^ | http://youtube.com/watch?v=HEFE3B0Rje0 "Mom my Ride" |
| 17:31.54 | *** join/#utah findlay-w (n=justin@gocastlerock.com) |
| 17:33.08 | goozbach | fozzmoo: haven't seen it yet |
| 17:33.27 | findlay-w | school time |
| 17:33.34 | fozzmoo | I sent it to your MSN account. |
| 17:33.46 | fozzmoo | No. Your PLUG Jabber account, actually. |
| 17:34.10 | goozbach | unlike my previous job, I have to work here |
| 17:34.21 | fozzmoo | Sure. Listen while you work. :) |
| 17:36.48 | Supaplex|roaming | tensai: let's hope Keighvin stays in the big room, so the stench won't choke you in your new shiney utopian civilization :) |
| 17:37.34 | Keighvin | Carbon emissions rarely have any scent. |
| 17:37.45 | Keighvin | Both monoxide and dioxide are odorless. |
| 17:37.54 | Keighvin | And methane is not abundant. |
| 17:38.01 | Supaplex|roaming | I was talking about the mexican fewds |
| 17:38.17 | Supaplex|roaming | ;) |
| 17:40.10 | Shadowwire | Ug |
| 17:41.50 | tensai | Supaplex|roaming: well, we have to leave somebody behind to finish our noble goal of planetary destruction |
| 17:44.15 | Shadowwire | wait, Whos goal was that? |
| 17:45.00 | Shadowwire | tensai? was that you? |
| 17:45.49 | tensai | Shadowwire: I just assumed since we're doing such a good job |
| 17:46.49 | Shadowwire | Of poluting the atmosphere? |
| 17:47.27 | Shadowwire | ThermalDepolymerization and Plasma Gasification is the answer. |
| 18:11.47 | goozbach | gasification! |
| 18:11.58 | goozbach | yes that's something I can get behind |
| 18:12.08 | goozbach | (figuretively speaking of course) |
| 18:14.02 | Shadowwire | http://www.recoveredenergy.com/ check it out. |
| 18:15.10 | Shadowwire | http://www.thermaldepolymerization.org/ this one too. |
| 18:16.29 | goozbach | I think plasma arc is cooler |
| 18:16.35 | goozbach | cause it's an arc |
| 18:16.39 | goozbach | bzzzzzzz! |
| 18:17.01 | Shadowwire | Thermal Depolymerization (TDP) is a process which is able to convert any organic material into any product now produced from oil. |
| 18:18.38 | ^Migs^ | hahaha |
| 18:18.43 | ^Migs^ | Girl, 3, survives fatal shooting |
| 18:18.43 | ^Migs^ | http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6968000/6968619.stm |
| 18:19.23 | ^Migs^ | the article itself isn't funny, just the headline |
| 18:19.47 | Shadowwire | How so? |
| 18:20.00 | ^Migs^ | when was the last time you survived a fatal shooting? |
| 18:20.26 | ^Migs^ | s/you/anyone/ |
| 18:20.47 | unum | of course it means the shooting was fatal for other people |
| 18:22.12 | ^Migs^ | that's not obvious from the headline, though |
| 18:22.51 | Shadowwire | I see. That is kind of funnywhen you look at it that way. |
| 18:23.03 | ^Migs^ | Shootings are often funny when viewed a certain way |
| 18:23.26 | Tene | ~shoot migs |
| 18:23.27 | ibot | ACTION shoots migs in the eye with a frozen turkey cannon! |
| 18:24.21 | Shadowwire | Yea, that was halarious. (from my point of view) |
| 18:24.28 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 18:24.28 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:25.02 | Keighvin | Shadowwire: You should have seen it from ^Migs^'s. |
| 18:25.34 | *** join/#utah sinuhe_ (n=sinuhe@63.110.13.126) |
| 18:26.22 | ^Migs^ | My whole life is practically non-stop laughter. |
| 18:28.22 | goozbach | "and how many times have you sucessfully commited suicide?" |
| 18:31.49 | Shadowwire | 2 or 3 |
| 18:32.05 | goozbach | redbeard2: http://www.culinart.net/silicone.html |
| 18:32.53 | goozbach | and http://www.totallychocolate.com/ |
| 18:33.30 | Shadowwire | I saw the word Plastique and thought it was about explosives. |
| 18:34.08 | Shadowwire | Too much battlefield and counterstrike i guess. |
| 18:48.24 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 18:50.58 | ^Migs^ | I wish I knew what happened to my copy of Battlefield 2 :( |
| 18:52.09 | Keighvin | Got blowed up? |
| 18:52.24 | ^Migs^ | FRAGGED |
| 18:52.33 | Keighvin | Right. Blowed up. |
| 18:53.45 | Keighvin | want: http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/video/9adf/ |
| 18:54.09 | Keighvin | Man, what the cold war spies would have given for todays consumer doodads. |
| 19:05.50 | *** join/#utah klys_ (n=admini@72.8.101.65) |
| 19:05.57 | klys_ | shadowwire: ping |
| 19:11.28 | Shadowwire | klys: pong |
| 19:11.54 | Shadowwire | I bought 10 copies of battlefield 2 because I wanted all my friends to be able to play. |
| 19:12.17 | Shadowwire | they were $10 each from my buddy who works @ EA |
| 19:12.41 | klys_ | wow |
| 19:12.53 | Shadowwire | Its a fun game. |
| 19:13.00 | klys_ | which directx and msversion does it require |
| 19:13.04 | Shadowwire | Kind of bloat ware, but fun. |
| 19:13.11 | Shadowwire | 9x |
| 19:13.39 | klys_ | a guy here wsa playing me a little kalai on the guitar only a few minutes ago. |
| 19:13.51 | Shadowwire | who was he? |
| 19:14.27 | klys_ | mane: trent, hometown: henderson |
| 19:14.36 | klys_ | s/mane/name/ |
| 19:14.54 | klys_ | just a little |
| 19:15.49 | klys_ | would you please transcribe today's irc session since you joined to a .txt file for me, and email it |
| 19:16.06 | klys_ | my server got it in the shuffle |
| 19:17.30 | *** join/#utah rsimpkins (n=rsimpkin@unaffiliated/rsimpkins) |
| 19:17.46 | rsimpkins | Hey all. Has anyone here ever had any dealings with Isilon? |
| 19:20.42 | Shadowwire | klys: You serious? |
| 19:21.16 | *** join/#utah jnbek (n=jnbek@c-67-161-221-47.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 19:21.47 | klys_ | shadowwire: yes because it got unplugged and I lost it, so yes |
| 19:22.25 | Shadowwire | Is there an easy to copy from iirc |
| 19:22.42 | thaddeusq | klys_: just wait until tomorrow and then go to: http://ibot.rikers.org/ |
| 19:23.45 | Shadowwire | nice. |
| 19:24.14 | klys_ | ircii you mean? |
| 19:24.46 | Shadowwire | um... yes? |
| 19:25.19 | klys_ | use the mouse, highlight, then middle-click somewhere in an editor? |
| 19:25.47 | klys_ | or push C-y if it's emacs. I reccomend gnotepad+ or gedit for this |
| 19:26.20 | klys_ | are you running ircii from X? |
| 19:26.22 | Shadowwire | i cant highlight in the irc window. |
| 19:26.31 | klys_ | is gpm running? |
| 19:26.46 | Shadowwire | Im running it from XP |
| 19:26.59 | klys_ | oh, ircii/epic4 for windows xp? |
| 19:27.14 | Shadowwire | yup. |
| 19:27.25 | klys_ | uh, dos? |
| 19:27.32 | klys_ | dosbox? |
| 19:27.44 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=route@65.200.183.126) |
| 19:27.50 | klys_ | right-clich the title bar and look for select? |
| 19:29.00 | klys | did it work? |
| 19:29.10 | Jayce^ | man, PHP really is training wheels without the bike |
| 19:29.23 | klys | php4 or 5? |
| 19:29.28 | fozzmoo | Doesn't matter. |
| 19:29.29 | Jayce^ | doesn't matter |
| 19:29.31 | fozzmoo | ;-) |
| 19:29.32 | Jayce^ | :) |
| 19:29.40 | klys | do you have php5 hosting? |
| 19:29.54 | Jayce^ | ? |
| 19:30.19 | Jayce^ | I don't use php, I'm dealing with somebody calling themselves a programmer, because they are using it.. |
| 19:30.43 | Shadowwire | So, define a programer. |
| 19:30.47 | klys | compare it to javascript then, not java |
| 19:31.31 | klys | the most opinionated definitions of programmers usually come from ##c |
| 19:32.21 | fozzmoo | ##c? |
| 19:32.31 | klys | a programmer for me is someone who knows enough to qualify for a job and has done something cool |
| 19:32.42 | klys | yeah I'm in there too |
| 19:32.45 | Jayce^ | this person doesn't understand how to return a value :) |
| 19:32.57 | fozzmoo | Whew. |
| 19:33.00 | klys | return by reference? |
| 19:33.06 | klys | because maybe it doesn't |
| 19:33.09 | Jayce^ | they didn't know what API was.. |
| 19:33.19 | Shadowwire | I supose the definition of programer is like the definition of a Politician. |
| 19:33.26 | Jayce^ | eg the *basics* elude them... |
| 19:33.27 | klys | well, you should know a few tla's |
| 19:34.45 | Shadowwire | by tla you mean? |
| 19:34.54 | klys | 3 letter acronym |
| 19:35.11 | fozzmoo | As I said before... there should be some kind of accredited engineering certification for programmers. |
| 19:35.20 | klys | there are a lot, really |
| 19:35.28 | fozzmoo | At the minimum, some kind of rating system for expertise in each language. |
| 19:35.40 | fozzmoo | klys: LEGITIMATE certification. WIDELY ACCEPTED certification. |
| 19:35.49 | klys | then moderate posts at a programming weblog like metafilter |
| 19:35.51 | fozzmoo | Of those, there really aren't. |
| 19:35.55 | fozzmoo | Especially with PHP. heh heh. |
| 19:35.59 | Shadowwire | NOT ACCEPTED certification. |
| 19:36.40 | fozzmoo | Most people who do PHP aren't programmers. They're "scriptors" |
| 19:36.45 | fozzmoo | Some are even man enough to admit it. |
| 19:36.46 | ^Migs^ | nonsense |
| 19:36.55 | ^Migs^ | a scripter is a type of programmer |
| 19:37.10 | ^Migs^ | PHP even has Zend Certification |
| 19:37.16 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: I'll buy that. |
| 19:37.43 | fozzmoo | Zend Certification? What does that certify you are capable of doing |
| 19:37.44 | fozzmoo | ? |
| 19:37.49 | ^Migs^ | Programming in PHP |
| 19:37.57 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 19:38.26 | fozzmoo | I should be "working" instead of bashing PHP. |
| 19:38.38 | klys | hacker, cracker, phreak, scripter, script writer, coder, graphics, all-in-all we have a lot of opinionated words floating around already |
| 19:38.39 | fozzmoo | Why do you people tempt me so?! |
| 19:38.53 | Shadowwire | Do it! |
| 19:38.55 | ^Migs^ | yeah, this place is too freakin interesting |
| 19:39.12 | Shadowwire | Let it Rip! |
| 19:39.28 | Shadowwire | go fossmoo go! |
| 19:40.07 | Jayce^ | they actually sent it to me, and asked me to look at it so I could find out what it would return... |
| 19:40.27 | Jayce^ | man, glad they aren't in my company |
| 19:40.37 | Jayce^ | heh.. can you say sql injection? |
| 19:40.49 | Jayce^ | oooh, and Tainting... |
| 19:40.56 | Jayce^ | since I"m posting to this, I could have some fun |
| 19:41.46 | Shadowwire | Play with them a little. Let us know how it goes. |
| 19:41.49 | fozzmoo | My last encounter with PHP code involved fixing an SQL injection vulnerability that had been exploited. |
| 19:42.04 | ^Migs^ | uh |
| 19:42.10 | ^Migs^ | mysql_real_escape_string() |
| 19:42.12 | ^Migs^ | derrr |
| 19:42.23 | ^Migs^ | PHP is great if you're not an idiot |
| 19:42.24 | Jayce^ | no, not even that..... |
| 19:42.30 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: I agree. |
| 19:42.50 | ^Migs^ | too bad they made it idiot-friendly |
| 19:42.56 | fozzmoo | Yeah. Like Windows. |
| 19:43.02 | ^Migs^ | *rimshot* |
| 19:43.17 | fozzmoo | M$ created a whole culture of people who don't know how to use computers. |
| 19:43.30 | ^Migs^ | but use them anyway |
| 19:43.33 | ^Migs^ | what's really bad about that? |
| 19:43.43 | fozzmoo | Just like PHP has created a whole culture of scripters who don't know how to program. |
| 19:43.46 | ^Migs^ | it brings technology to people who otherwise would be too stupid to use it |
| 19:44.02 | ^Migs^ | both those situations create jobs for many, many people |
| 19:44.04 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: It's not a problem until they need support. |
| 19:44.41 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: I |
| 19:45.00 | fozzmoo | I've often wondered if Bill Gates was in bed with some kind of computer consultant union. |
| 19:45.04 | Jayce^ | and don't even get me started on the schema, just from what it shows here.. |
| 19:45.14 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: He knows what a "schema" is?! |
| 19:45.27 | fozzmoo | Jayce^: Don't let Dan see it! |
| 19:45.31 | Jayce^ | no, my casting of what they have.. |
| 19:45.34 | Jayce^ | no kidding |
| 19:45.43 | Jayce^ | did you see dan's presenting at UTOS? |
| 19:45.54 | fozzmoo | I'm certainly going to try to attend it. |
| 19:46.02 | Jayce^ | I thought about finding a soapbox for him to stand on.. |
| 19:46.12 | fozzmoo | Do it. |
| 19:46.28 | fozzmoo | He should have titled it "Hanksifying your database" |
| 19:46.36 | fozzmoo | I coined that term when I worked there. |
| 19:47.39 | Jayce^ | he will be quoting Date's "Database In Depth" liberally I hear |
| 19:48.00 | fozzmoo | Save me a seat in the front. |
| 19:48.15 | Jayce^ | anybody who's "Picked up" Databases (vs learning in db theory type classes) *must* attend that one |
| 19:48.56 | fozzmoo | NULL columns? Eternal damnation! |
| 19:50.01 | fozzmoo | Not that I *never* use null columns... but I make dang sure it's never going to pose a problem. As a result, I VERY rarely use NULL columns. |
| 19:50.09 | fozzmoo | Maybe for a "notes" field. |
| 19:54.02 | Jayce^ | here we go, his title is "The role of the relational model in a growing world of unstructured data" |
| 19:54.48 | klys | and does it play a complex role in said world which as mentioned has lost track of its own complexity? |
| 19:55.33 | klys | or is the relational model a referent to mysql or something |
| 19:55.45 | Jayce^ | *snicker* you really don't know Dan :) |
| 19:55.54 | goozbach | which one is this? |
| 19:56.08 | Jayce^ | Dan Hanks... he's a relational theory nut |
| 19:56.11 | jsmith | "Data is only unstructured to the untrained eye" |
| 19:56.14 | Jayce^ | no database is *good enough* |
| 19:56.32 | goozbach | hmm |
| 19:56.38 | Jayce^ | though PG and Oracle have the best implementations for him ATM |
| 19:56.41 | beandog | how do you get sed to just delete a line |
| 19:56.51 | klys | what about a collaborative version of hnb with a good clipboard? what does it have to be good enough for? |
| 19:57.16 | Jayce^ | klys, attend his presentation and you'll understand |
| 19:57.38 | klys | if he was just drivelling then relational means RDBMS and good means perfect. |
| 19:58.47 | rsimpkins | So, no one using Isilon out there? |
| 19:59.43 | jsmith | rsimpkins: What's that? |
| 20:00.04 | rsimpkins | jsmith: isilon.com |
| 20:03.35 | klys | is IL on? yeah I'm going, what about you <snicker> |
| 20:03.43 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Interesting... the question is, how well does it work? |
| 20:03.54 | rsimpkins | jsmith: That's what I'd like to know actually. |
| 20:04.04 | rsimpkins | jsmith: The software is awesome. |
| 20:04.14 | rsimpkins | Or based on what I've seen of it, it is. |
| 20:04.15 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Sounds scary... |
| 20:04.34 | rsimpkins | jsmith: Oh, there are FAR more frightening choices. |
| 20:04.34 | klys | can it work two places at once? |
| 20:04.37 | elg | o/~ I'm waiting for the night to fall... |
| 20:04.59 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Obviously... whatcha gonna use these for? |
| 20:05.04 | jsmith | elg: Where's brac? |
| 20:05.04 | rsimpkins | jsmith: Dunno. |
| 20:05.19 | klys | ...keeps us from the stark, reality... |
| 20:05.26 | jsmith | rsimpkins: It's nice to want, isn't it? |
| 20:05.30 | klys | There is a Star in the Sky |
| 20:05.38 | rsimpkins | jsmith: It's better to get. |
| 20:05.40 | klys | Guiding my way with its Eye |
| 20:05.54 | jsmith | rsimpkins: Tis better to receive than to want? |
| 20:05.55 | Jayce^ | elg, DM++ |
| 20:06.18 | rsimpkins | jsmith: I have no complaints at all. |
| 20:06.47 | klys | and when I squinted the World seemed Rose-Tinted |
| 20:06.56 | klys | Angels appeared to Descend |
| 20:10.04 | elg | jsmith: he was hogging ram |
| 20:10.41 | jsmith | elg: Ah, we taught him too much, eh? |
| 20:11.02 | RyanE | shame, he was approaching the singularity. |
| 20:11.24 | klys | next time I go off you do it too ok |
| 20:11.45 | klys | 'nuff said |
| 20:14.10 | elg | jsmith: yeah, the markov module, among others, was a memory hog |
| 20:14.25 | elg | One day I may rewrite him |
| 20:14.43 | elg | btw, if you do have some reasonably large pc133 sticks I might be able to use them and bring him back :) |
| 20:15.29 | jsmith | elg: Everything I have is now yours :-) |
| 20:15.31 | elg | this box has two ddr slots and two sdram slots. as of tomorrow both ddr slots will be in use. I wonder if it can have memory in the sdram slots concurrently |
| 20:15.43 | jsmith | elg: I doubt it |
| 20:16.19 | elg | probably right |
| 20:17.16 | elg | what about old ddr266 sticks larger than 512? |
| 20:17.17 | tensai | I wouldn't be surprised if you could. look up your mobo manual and see |
| 20:17.19 | elg | :) |
| 20:17.28 | elg | tensai: sure, complicate things. |
| 20:17.45 | elg | i know it has a 2 gig max, so I could fit another 512 if it does let me |
| 20:21.23 | goozbach | one of the greatest schlock moments: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20061023.html |
| 20:24.20 | Jayce^ | classic schlock |
| 20:25.24 | Keighvin | Aye. S'a good'n. |
| 20:25.53 | klys | collaborative code shouldn't rely on an rdbms. |
| 20:26.39 | klys | sure, an rdbms has transaction rollback, but it's not a backend fit for everyone's taste |
| 20:26.58 | fozzmoo | I guess you have to weigh pros and cons. |
| 20:27.21 | klys | and more important, editing a database isn't actually accomplishing work in the sense of running the same program interactively |
| 20:27.53 | *** join/#utah lane_ (n=lane@208.64.90.18.static.utahbroadband.com) |
| 20:28.30 | klys | also, relying on the database you lose a degree of your learning curve to the database, and control over what you're doing with your data |
| 20:28.41 | Jayce^ | rdbms isn't the only thing using a relational model either. |
| 20:29.12 | klys | if the database only supports rows, then you won't be able to share columns like moonedit. it doesn't use sql data |
| 20:30.06 | klys | also, it's easy to assume that since you can run sql over tcp that this will accomplish what you would otherwise want to do with ip multicast |
| 20:30.29 | klys | people become protective of databases and hide them behind websites |
| 20:31.17 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I agree. People should put databases in front and websites behind! |
| 20:31.27 | klys | security built into a database took off at novell but I think it fizzled because X.500 looks designed to keep track of people not data. |
| 20:31.32 | fozzmoo | Down with database backends! |
| 20:32.09 | klys | so, we need a solution in a non-scripting language |
| 20:32.30 | klys | something to share categories and treat them for news, voting, and style |
| 20:32.49 | levi | klys: Man, I have no idea what you're getting at. |
| 20:33.01 | klys | of course, o'reilly's solution is LAMP. mysql/postgres |
| 20:33.15 | klys | and they're all over the bookstore |
| 20:33.39 | klys | is anyone solving the problem of a collaborative hierarchy on a fine-grained level |
| 20:33.56 | levi | What do you even mean by a 'collaborative hierarchy'? |
| 20:34.00 | fozzmoo | klys: And you don't want to use a database or LDAP? |
| 20:34.11 | fozzmoo | (LDAP is a database, right?) |
| 20:34.25 | klys | look, when the topic changes, the context is new. move it around in a structure. join and leave. like NNTP |
| 20:34.26 | levi | Yes, LDAP is a hierarchical database. |
| 20:34.57 | fozzmoo | So, you want NNTP but with security? |
| 20:35.05 | klys | you're getting there |
| 20:35.14 | klys | interactive |
| 20:36.24 | klys | if I want security, who am I, a host to a private conversation? every private converation shown in public needs a sane title, category, and known moderation tactic such as a credential |
| 20:36.47 | klys | otherwise it's just encryption |
| 20:36.58 | ^Migs^ | I wouldn't really call LDAP a "database." |
| 20:37.09 | fozzmoo | How public are we talking about? |
| 20:37.17 | klys | security is like, about trust, not about hiding from the public |
| 20:37.21 | ^Migs^ | but I'm mostly just saying that to start an argument |
| 20:37.23 | fozzmoo | Would you still rely on a centralized user base? |
| 20:37.28 | klys | sure |
| 20:37.32 | fozzmoo | ^Migs^: I KNEW IT! |
| 20:37.49 | levi | Well, LDAP itself isn't a database. It's a protocol for talking to one. |
| 20:38.07 | klys | ldap is the easy X.500 |
| 20:38.17 | klys | eDirectory supports it |
| 20:38.28 | levi | It's Lightweight! |
| 20:38.31 | ^Migs^ | http://www.oreillynet.com/sysadmin/blog/2006/05/ldap_is_not_a_database.html |
| 20:38.53 | ^Migs^ | yeah, edirectory is a database |
| 20:39.05 | ^Migs^ | and I'm also saying that to provoke an argument |
| 20:39.09 | klys | anyway, ldap is for keeping finger information according to me |
| 20:39.15 | levi | ^Migs^: That guy clearly doesn't know what 'database' means. |
| 20:39.41 | ^Migs^ | The “D” in “LDAP” stands for “directory”, not “database” |
| 20:39.41 | ^Migs^ | LOL |
| 20:39.49 | ^Migs^ | SQL is useless when run against an LDAP server. |
| 20:39.50 | ^Migs^ | haha |
| 20:39.56 | ^Migs^ | yeah, I agree with you, he doesn't know what he's talking about |
| 20:40.04 | klys | so, did I bring up ldap |
| 20:40.22 | levi | klys: No, but no one knew what in the world you were talking about, so we grasped at straws. |
| 20:40.28 | *** join/#utah fugalh (n=fugalh@dhcp40.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 20:40.35 | ^Migs^ | his idea of a "database" is rather narrow and specialized |
| 20:40.50 | klys | I'm not talking about a shared waste |
| 20:41.00 | levi | His idea of 'database' is limited to SQL-based relational databases. |
| 20:41.25 | *** part/#utah fugalh (n=fugalh@dhcp40.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 20:41.41 | levi | klys: I don't think we're talking about what you're talking about anymore. We're mocking the idiot who doesn't think LDAP talks to a database. |
| 20:42.07 | klys | well, mysql is a login method now |
| 20:42.11 | klys | pam-mysql |
| 20:43.02 | levi | I'm sure that's been true for far longer than this idiot has been sysadmining. |
| 20:44.17 | klys | hey, does someone have an opinion or am y just being screwy about my market research |
| 20:44.18 | levi | But anyway, it is no surprise that there are idiots with blogs who shout stupid things from the hilltop. It's practically what the internet is all about these days. |
| 20:44.49 | levi | klys: I'm not sure what you're wanting me to have an opinion about, or what it's got to do with market reasearch. |
| 20:44.58 | levi | Er, research. |
| 20:45.11 | klys | what kind of database do you want? |
| 20:45.27 | levi | I don't want any kind of database at the moment. |
| 20:45.43 | levi | And when I do want a database, the kind will probably depend on what I want to do. |
| 20:45.51 | klys | what kind of chatroom improvement |
| 20:46.16 | levi | Why would I want to improve chatrooms? IRC ought to be enough for anyone. ;) |
| 20:46.39 | klys | irc is lossy and is it memorable or now what? |
| 20:46.58 | levi | You should go learn Erlang and write a new chatroom with it. |
| 20:47.00 | klys | I wouldn't use it instead of rcs |
| 20:48.53 | levi | I wouldn't use IRC instead of the Royal College of Surgeons either. That would be silly. |
| 20:49.11 | klys | to par get: revision control |
| 20:49.48 | levi | I wouldn't use any chat system instead of RCS. I wouldn't use RCS for revision control, either. |
| 20:49.53 | klys | of course, irc belongs in a system of collaboration |
| 20:50.32 | levi | Most version control systems use specialized databases, too. |
| 20:50.48 | klys | nice thing about rcs: uses flat files |
| 20:51.09 | levi | not-nice things about rcs: everything else. |
| 20:52.13 | levi | Speaking of vcss, I'm learning Perforce at work. |
| 20:52.15 | levi | Yuck. |
| 20:52.24 | klys | well, consider the programming challenge of satisfying the public in a non-demeaning way without fronting some web portal |
| 20:52.50 | klys | of course, there's DOM |
| 20:53.13 | klys | it's xml and everyone I know seems to agree xml is the anti-database drug |
| 20:53.37 | klys | then, there's ip multicast |
| 20:53.53 | klys | rjamm used it, but it was java. now moonedit uses it |
| 20:54.17 | levi | xml is evil. |
| 20:54.40 | klys | xml is also wordperfect to the rest of the tags |
| 20:54.54 | klys | <div> |
| 20:55.07 | klys | ok, </div> |
| 20:55.11 | klys | what do you prefer |
| 20:56.47 | levi | moonedit looks bizarre. |
| 20:57.11 | klys | what I'm getting: erlang, the Concurrent, real-time, distributed functional language |
| 20:57.31 | levi | That is indeed what erlang is. |
| 20:58.12 | klys | next question is how does it cope with people behind a router |
| 20:59.22 | levi | It deals with people behind routers about as well as C++ does. |
| 21:00.00 | klys | huh, so I can drop a socket an reconnect from perl |
| 21:01.19 | klys | does it link with C |
| 21:01.28 | elg | the real question is how well does it deal with infinite recursion and global warming |
| 21:01.45 | klys | those are arbitrary hardware limits |
| 21:02.04 | elg | as is a router |
| 21:02.09 | klys | yes |
| 21:02.26 | klys | elg: are you behind a router? |
| 21:02.51 | elg | absolutely not. I connect to the internet with a rusty fork |
| 21:02.58 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 21:02.58 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:03.21 | klys | so I had this ide earlier about diffing and patching an ascii hnb file |
| 21:03.29 | klys | and posting it in a public location |
| 21:03.31 | klys | idea |
| 21:03.53 | klys | and setting up an http post method for patching |
| 21:04.02 | klys | and a perl script to request a diff |
| 21:04.31 | klys | oh, is erlang gui or cli |
| 21:04.46 | Jayce^ | erlang is a language... |
| 21:05.03 | klys | I know, it downloaded tcl is why I ask |
| 21:05.20 | elg | tcl is a language too |
| 21:06.37 | klys | is there an irc server project written with erlang |
| 21:06.43 | *** join/#utah brac (n=fugalh@dhcp40.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:06.58 | levi | I think that's one of the example projects in Programming Erlang. |
| 21:07.18 | elg | yes. though it's not an irc client, but an irc-like server |
| 21:08.04 | elg | so that you don't have to deal with the actual protocol issues while trying to learn something about erlang |
| 21:08.05 | levi | Ahh, ok. |
| 21:08.05 | klys | so, would it be useful for something like bitlbee |
| 21:08.29 | levi | You could certainly implement something like bitlbee in erlang. |
| 21:08.53 | elg | as in any language |
| 21:09.26 | klys | typer: no file(s) to analyze |
| 21:09.34 | levi | It's an excellent language for concurrent processing of multiple network streams with different (or the same, even) network protocols. |
| 21:09.36 | elg | except java. if you used java it would have to be a mixed Swing/AWT GUI and run in a sandbox on a server, combined with java web start on your own box |
| 21:10.18 | klys | so, I can handle 3-4 sockets and it would be like a template |
| 21:10.32 | levi | elg: Go ahead, jump. |
| 21:10.35 | brac | ACTION jumps |
| 21:11.11 | brac | :ACTION jumps |
| 21:11.35 | klys | levi: are you just pulling my leg, have you used it for anything serious |
| 21:11.37 | levi | I think elg is doing some IRC protocol hacking right now. |
| 21:11.54 | elg | sniffing might be a better word |
| 21:11.59 | brac | *sniff* |
| 21:12.08 | elg | can't figure out how to initiate an action though |
| 21:12.47 | levi | klys: I haven't used it for anything serious, but ejabberd is written in erlang, and it's the language that Ericsson used to implement a high-end telephone switch that achieved nine nines of reliability. |
| 21:13.05 | nick125 | Actions use a weird character |
| 21:13.19 | levi | It's definitely an industrial-strength language. |
| 21:13.54 | klys | it's going to be 5:00 in a couple of hours I just know it |
| 21:15.24 | brac | ACTION jumps |
| 21:15.33 | brac | ACTION jumps |
| 21:15.43 | levi | Poor brac just can't get off the ground. |
| 21:15.53 | goozbach | pineapple |
| 21:16.00 | goozbach | brac: talk about pineapple is |
| 21:16.11 | goozbach | brac: chat about pineapple is |
| 21:16.26 | brac | pineapple |
| 21:16.35 | klys | can brac respond to keybindings j/k |
| 21:16.42 | brac | pineapple is the lorious fruit from goozbachland |
| 21:18.12 | levi | Hmm, next Ubuntu release name is Hardy Heron. |
| 21:18.52 | elg | at least it's not hardy boys on heroin |
| 21:19.15 | levi | That would be an ill-advised name. |
| 21:20.06 | levi | OK, time to learn LLDP. |
| 21:20.11 | elg | LLDP? |
| 21:20.19 | elg | Lovely Linux Documentation Project? |
| 21:21.36 | Jayce^ | Lisp Leaning Database Protocols |
| 21:22.11 | ^Migs^ | Lollipops Licking Dingos and Prairiedogs |
| 21:22.32 | elg | i'm pretty sure licking dingos is illegal somewhere |
| 21:22.44 | Jayce^ | better tell harleypig then |
| 21:23.05 | Keighvin | It's only illegal if you can prove the dingo didn't give consent. |
| 21:23.18 | Jayce^ | Lillyputins Like Drag People |
| 21:23.32 | Jayce^ | midget cross-dressers? |
| 21:24.27 | Keighvin | google for "dingo licking" (in quotes) retrieved 132 hits. |
| 21:24.53 | Jayce^ | how about google images.... :-p |
| 21:25.17 | Keighvin | Haven't done that. |
| 21:25.25 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 21:25.25 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:25.25 | klys | actually the main reason I'm not writing code is that I'm stuck on my scheduler code |
| 21:25.35 | Keighvin | But from a scan of the front page, it's usually used as a literal verb action of the dingo in question. |
| 21:25.47 | Keighvin | However, the top hit does demonstrate "dingo licking" as a pejorative. |
| 21:28.39 | ^Migs^ | some people I'm sure take that as a compliment |
| 21:33.02 | Keighvin | I'm sure they do, my dingo licking friend. |
| 21:40.10 | klys | there's openlldp, though it's not in debian's apt |
| 21:46.49 | klys | ...but I..was....so...hungr<snore> |
| 21:48.16 | *** join/#utah beandog (n=steve@gentoo/developer/beandog) |
| 21:51.08 | Shadowwire | Wake UP! |
| 21:51.38 | klys | hey |
| 21:51.47 | Shadowwire | straw |
| 21:52.12 | klys | quick, ask me about a buzzword |
| 21:52.13 | *** join/#utah skale (i=jules@host86-141-171-121.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:52.19 | Shadowwire | wheat, barley, alf-alfa. |
| 21:52.23 | klys | pit |
| 21:52.28 | Shadowwire | tip |
| 21:52.36 | klys | ~ask |
| 21:52.37 | ibot | Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there, just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will. |
| 21:53.03 | klys | ...and stuff like that |
| 21:53.05 | Shadowwire | hey, quick. whats a buzzword! |
| 21:53.17 | klys | programming acronym |
| 21:53.32 | Shadowwire | oh. |
| 21:53.52 | Shadowwire | Alow me to formulate annother question. |
| 21:54.27 | Shadowwire | Would half a bee be half a bee if only half the bee were a bee? |
| 21:54.41 | klys | its half&half |
| 21:55.25 | klys | beebeep |
| 21:55.44 | Shadowwire | Kind of like IMO |
| 21:56.01 | klys | in my opinion, |
| 21:56.21 | klys | it's not so noisy around here after all |
| 21:56.22 | Jayce^ | Shadowwire, i'd like to buy a license.. |
| 21:56.53 | Shadowwire | hu? |
| 21:57.03 | klys | to battlefield2 I'm guessing |
| 21:57.28 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 21:58.12 | *** join/#utah elg1 (n=fugalh@dhcp40.cs.nmsu.edu) |
| 21:58.28 | Shadowwire | I think I have 3 that have yet to be opened. |
| 21:58.39 | elg1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:58.54 | Jayce^ | wow, that's some action :) |
| 21:58.58 | klys | ACTIONA |
| 21:59.04 | Shadowwire | Sweet action! |
| 21:59.05 | skale | hi elg1 |
| 22:00.01 | Shadowwire | skale: do you have scales? |
| 22:00.09 | klys | now I'm wondering if I should be hitting up some http/telnet server for the video |
| 22:00.16 | skale | nope |
| 22:00.52 | Shadowwire | I just keep wondering if there are more like me out there. |
| 22:01.30 | skale | shadowwire, are you a student ? |
| 22:01.43 | klys | where do you get a 3-digit kitchen scale out of curiosity |
| 22:02.01 | klys | oh, haha |
| 22:02.09 | Shadowwire | skale: nope |
| 22:02.41 | Shadowwire | I havnt seen the inside of a school for a long time. |
| 22:02.56 | skale | I see |
| 22:03.03 | klys | how long since you have a newspaper |
| 22:03.18 | Shadowwire | By the way, Who is Linus Torvalds? |
| 22:03.34 | skale | a pinguin ? :) |
| 22:03.46 | Shadowwire | Newspapers are evil. |
| 22:03.53 | klys | tudent of andy tanenbaum, until last year maintainer of and original author of the kernel ar kernel.org |
| 22:04.13 | *** join/#utah Newsome (n=sorenson@adsl-75-0-136-70.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:04.19 | klys | s/tud/stud/ar/of/ |
| 22:04.28 | klys | at |
| 22:04.48 | klys | of too, I'm sure |
| 22:05.37 | klys | andy tanenbaum: author of minix and outspoken proponent of operating systems writing |
| 22:06.48 | klys | how many ways are there to remember seeing the high gargonan |
| 22:07.01 | Shadowwire | Jayce^: Were you serious? |
| 22:07.23 | Shadowwire | Im guessing that was a question for me? |
| 22:07.27 | klys | sure |
| 22:08.03 | Jayce^ | Shadowwire, that's the beginning of the half-a-bee sketch |
| 22:08.12 | tensai | andy tanenbaum also runs electoral-vote.com |
| 22:08.25 | Shadowwire | For an answer, one would have to understand the fundamentals of the question. (which I dont) |
| 22:09.14 | *** join/#utah TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 22:09.14 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:09.21 | klys | well, it would entail his customs of turning, how many of them there are, and how well-guarded he is, and how much will deters you from the fact of the observation |
| 22:10.12 | Shadowwire | oh... In that case. 3 |
| 22:11.56 | Shadowwire | hey, how do do that third person thing. like *shadowwire 'does something'. |
| 22:12.06 | klys | so, like 3 still frames to the observador |
| 22:12.23 | klys | is it postconfrontational |
| 22:13.02 | Keighvin | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:13.03 | klys | it's /me |
| 22:14.01 | klys | or more latin, like he's remembered in greed, disgust, or avarice |
| 22:14.37 | *** join/#utah bonez39 (n=scott@c-71-195-243-49.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:14.45 | bonez39 | Message from syslogd@fyrenice at Wed Aug 29 15:39:24 2007 ... |
| 22:14.45 | bonez39 | fyrenice kernel: Disabling IRQ # |
| 22:14.51 | bonez39 | what might cause that error message? |
| 22:14.55 | Shadowwire | klys: I beleive your question was, "how many ways are there to remember the high gargonan." |
| 22:15.00 | klys | ok |
| 22:15.16 | bonez39 | I had a term open and it just shows that... .. a syslog message... |
| 22:15.32 | klys | bonez39: a lot of unhandled irqs |
| 22:15.49 | bonez39 | I have NEVER seen such a message.. |
| 22:17.36 | Shadowwire | hey, How do I change my alius like that? |
| 22:17.47 | klys | use /nick ? |
| 22:17.52 | Shadowwire | cool |
| 22:18.22 | klys | haha |
| 22:18.23 | The | ops |
| 22:19.06 | The_artist_forme | crap |
| 22:19.38 | Shadowwire | double crap. |
| 22:19.54 | Shadowwire | hey shadowire |
| 22:20.01 | Shadowwwire | He left. |
| 22:20.09 | Shadowwire | tripple crap. |
| 22:20.34 | Tripple_Crap | You wrang? |
| 22:20.42 | klys | trip: whazzaa |
| 22:20.50 | Tripple_Crap | Er, rang, I guess. |
| 22:20.51 | Shadowwire | Sometimes I get so confused. |
| 22:21.29 | Shadowwire | So, why would it say "klys is now known as klys"? |
| 22:22.12 | Shadowwire | oh, its the underscore thingy_ |
| 22:22.35 | klys | which is why filename spaces are redundant |
| 22:23.00 | Shadowwire | quadruple crap. |
| 22:23.19 | klys | so, easily visible? |
| 22:23.45 | klys | ____ is a solid line at my system |
| 22:24.02 | klys | on row 14 of 0...15 |
| 22:25.25 | Shadowwire | I should clean my desk one of there days. |
| 22:26.06 | klys | my desk is, well, up for debate today |
| 22:27.37 | klys | did you ever figure out emacs |
| 22:27.52 | Shadowwire | Yea, Im a pro. |
| 22:27.58 | klys | cool |
| 22:28.11 | klys | ever run gcc with success |
| 22:28.17 | Shadowwire | Did you not catch the sarcasm in my typing? |
| 22:28.38 | klys | it was cool sarcasm, it doesn't mean I approve of everything you're think'd |
| 22:29.08 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@166-70-238-250.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:29.09 | Shadowwire | um. . . What? |
| 22:29.18 | klys | are you mid-think |
| 22:29.24 | Shadowwire | stupid ibot anyway. |
| 22:29.24 | klys | or post-thunk |
| 22:29.30 | Keighvin | a~lart fozzmoo for fun |
| 22:29.30 | klys | oh |
| 22:29.35 | Keighvin | ~lart fozzmoo for fun |
| 22:29.35 | ibot | chops fozzmoo in half with a free AOL CD for fun |
| 22:29.36 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 22:29.51 | fozzmoo | Now you have two of fozzmoo! |
| 22:30.05 | fozzmoo | Now you have two of fozzmoo! |
| 22:30.11 | klys | now yet |
| 22:30.16 | klys | though not already |
| 22:30.26 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@fugalh.nmsu.edu) |
| 22:30.40 | Shadowwire | Snap out of it man! your not making any sense! |
| 22:30.52 | klys | he wouldn't admit to an already |
| 22:31.22 | fozzmoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:31.23 | klys | ah, you already do, er, /did/, i mean... |
| 22:31.26 | fozzmoo | oh. oops. |
| 22:31.40 | klys | well, |
| 22:32.01 | Shadowwire | deep subject. |
| 22:32.03 | klys | fozzmoo is still awaiting the self-already admission |
| 22:32.12 | klys | it would un-two |
| 22:32.39 | Shadowwire | This must be programer talk. |
| 22:32.50 | klys | hmm |
| 22:34.14 | klys | so, tackling the bread seems easy and I have plenty of butter |
| 22:34.20 | klys | maybe I'll get up |
| 22:35.26 | *** join/#utah kreg (n=kreg@208.98.188.95) |
| 22:37.31 | klys | better |
| 22:42.05 | klys | essay on how is now yet: the past will mostly be, something present is unprepared. so immediacy falls. dare we pick it up, no, only one can pick it up. then claim to care whom? yet: awareness in some shows clear on the issue. there is also a rise. greatness will have not stumbled misfortunately |
| 22:44.06 | klys | of course you can 'pick it up', we all consider how few are. now at least (heisenburg) are involved. so, admit that something happened, right. |
| 22:47.13 | Shadowwire | right. |
| 22:47.25 | Shadowwire | I mean, |
| 22:51.03 | Keighvin | Anybody want to buy my house? |
| 22:51.54 | Keighvin | I wasn't gonna do it for the bacon, but the panythose seals the deal. |
| 22:52.32 | Keighvin | I've got a pound of it in the fridge. |
| 22:52.35 | Keighvin | Exceuse me, your fridge. |
| 22:52.40 | tensai | heh |
| 22:53.44 | Shadowwire | Wow, thats a good deal. |
| 22:53.58 | Keighvin | Yeah - just cost you the pantyhose. |
| 22:54.09 | Shadowwire | I wish I had some bacon. |
| 22:55.43 | tensai | fozzmoo: I love your .sig :) |
| 22:56.50 | fozzmoo | which one? |
| 22:59.52 | tensai | in the most recent message to sllug. for those of you with children, who don't know it, there is a nursery downstairs. |
| 23:00.19 | fozzmoo | heh heh. Yeah. That's a good one. |
| 23:00.33 | fozzmoo | The .sig quote rotates. |
| 23:00.49 | fozzmoo | 203 records in that database. |
| 23:10.44 | Keighvin | You're going to be charged extra for that burp since you're roaming. |
| 23:10.54 | Supaplex|roaming | my bad. it was a hiccup. |
| 23:11.40 | Supaplex|roaming | o.O |
| 23:15.17 | Keighvin | Wow. You can get a six unit aparment complex for under $160K in OH. |
| 23:17.20 | *** part/#utah bonez39 (n=scott@c-71-195-243-49.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:18.31 | levi | LLDP = link-level discovery protocol |
| 23:18.40 | Shadowwire | you can get a six by six foot cubicle for that here. |
| 23:18.43 | levi | New IEEE standard to replace stuff like CDP. |
| 23:18.45 | fozzmoo | levi: yeah- it's a new one. |
| 23:18.59 | levi | You VoIP people should be all over LLDP. |
| 23:19.04 | fozzmoo | levi: It's a good example of a "Request" protocol. |
| 23:19.30 | fozzmoo | I gave a presentation at my wife's work on distributed systems... |
| 23:19.46 | levi | Ahh, cool. :) |
| 23:19.53 | fozzmoo | I was talking about the differences between Request and Request-Reply and Request-Reply-Acknowledgment models. |
| 23:19.58 | levi | I included it in a research paper for a networking class. |
| 23:20.04 | fozzmoo | I use LLDP as an example of Request. |
| 23:20.25 | levi | How did you first learn of LLDP? |
| 23:20.31 | fozzmoo | I don't remember. Google. :) |
| 23:20.37 | levi | 802.1AB |
| 23:21.03 | fozzmoo | It'll be nice to have functionality standardized. |
| 23:21.12 | levi | Indeed. |
| 23:21.14 | fozzmoo | Instead of having to rely on software that works with each vendor's implementation. |
| 23:21.54 | levi | CDP was fairly widely implemented. The HP Procurve switches I was using a while ago did it. |
| 23:22.11 | levi | They're switching to LLDP in future products, though. |
| 23:22.32 | levi | "Station and Media Access Control Connectivity Discovery" |
| 23:23.50 | levi | My paper was on methods for discovery of link-level network topology. |
| 23:24.36 | levi | LLDP and SNMP would clearly be the best way to do that if all your hardware supported it. Alas, the real world rarely allows such best-case scenarios. |
| 23:35.29 | jsmith-away | LLDP, eh? |
| 23:35.43 | jsmith | levi: Mind explaining it in laymen's terms? |
| 23:36.55 | levi | jsmith: The idea behind LLDP is for devices on a network to be able to announce their presence and some of their features. |
| 23:37.51 | levi | On a switch, you could send and listen for LLDP packets on all your ports, so you'd be able to see that you had a peer switch on port 1, a SIP phone on port 2, etc. |
| 23:38.58 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@63.110.13.126) |
| 23:39.20 | levi | (assuming the other switch and phone sent out LLDP packets, of course) |
| 23:40.16 | levi | You could then go in with a SNMP tool and get an automatic map of the topology of your network. |
| 23:40.43 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 23:40.47 | jsmith | levi: Very nice... and the devices on the network could identify themselves? |
| 23:41.02 | jsmith | levi: This is fantastic... it's exactly what I dreamed up a couple of years ago! |
| 23:41.04 | levi | Yes, to some degree. |
| 23:41.20 | levi | Well, now you know which protocol to use. :) |
| 23:41.34 | jsmith | So it's like CDP, only done correctly... and different vendors will play nicely, right? |
| 23:41.40 | levi | Yup. |
| 23:42.21 | levi | The standard was ratified in 2005, so it's barely getting rolled out in products. |
| 23:42.43 | levi | I think it's in the process of some extensions right now. |
| 23:43.32 | levi | You should definitely use whatever influence you have in the VoIP community to push it. :) |
| 23:47.33 | levi | To be technically accurate, LLDP defines 'protocol data units' that fit in ethernet frames, not 'packets' :) |
| 23:49.18 | levi | The only mandatory data in a LLDPPDU are the chassis ID, port ID, and a TTL value. |
| 23:49.43 | levi | But, presumably, there will usually be others. |
| 23:52.50 | levi | Hmm. That's all that's mandatory, but the basic management TLV set is required. It includes port description, system name, system description, system capabilities (includes its capabilities and current primary function, such as end station, bridge, router) and management address. |
| 23:54.39 | levi | There's also a TLV set for VLAN stuff, and a TLV set that includes stuff like PoE stuff, link aggregation, maximum frame size, etc. |
