| 00:04.34 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.222.111) |
| 00:37.23 | *** join/#utah klys (n=daniel@72.8.101.65) |
| 00:38.49 | klys | tell all your homies |
| 00:39.08 | klys | word to your mother's homie |
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| 01:54.41 | elg | ~lart vontrapp |
| 01:54.41 | ibot | takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down vontrapp's throat until vontrapp puts on 150lbs |
| 02:19.29 | levi_home | Good evening. |
| 02:25.47 | klys | yo |
| 02:26.51 | levi_home | What are the haps my friends? |
| 02:31.50 | klys | we're cleaning up around here |
| 02:34.52 | levi_home | Cleaning up? |
| 02:35.25 | klys | yeah well my roommate is supposedly looking for a dustbuster |
| 02:36.12 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@208.53.47.251) |
| 02:36.17 | klys | and... talked a guy into booting linux in #allegro |
| 02:37.33 | klys | and... it's noisy around here a lot |
| 02:37.44 | klys | not too much though |
| 02:38.44 | klys | do you have a breadmaker? |
| 02:38.54 | klys | my recipe needs work |
| 02:51.26 | levi_home | Yes, I have a breadmaker, but it is in a box right now. |
| 03:11.53 | rsimpkins | I really like MS Flight Sim X |
| 03:12.22 | rsimpkins | I just went up in a twin, and caused everything to fail, the engines to catch on fire, nothing working but the control surfaces. |
| 03:13.48 | rsimpkins | My only complaint is that it's still too easy - even with all the realism settings set to max. |
| 03:15.02 | klys | half of what makes flight hard is waiting arbitrary intervals and staying alert to the next ones, I'm guessing |
| 03:21.28 | findlay | herlo: ping |
| 03:43.04 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 04:01.54 | rsimpkins | klys: Only at night IMO. During the day you can actually enjoy the scenery, when you are manuvering you can't really enjoy it as much. |
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| 04:44.39 | findlay | nothing beats flightgear |
| 04:44.52 | findlay | but I'm no expert |
| 04:45.09 | findlay | flightgear lets me hack on the source, therefore |
| 04:45.14 | findlay | ~flightgear++ |
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| 05:37.32 | levi_home | Gah. My wife let the cat out several hours ago and he's not back at the door yet, and she's worried sick. |
| 05:38.49 | klys | hmm, it would be fun to help a neighbor look for a cat, too bad you're so far away |
| 05:40.01 | levi_home | We already walked around the neighborhood. |
| 05:40.11 | levi_home | Hopefully the cat is just prowling around. |
| 05:43.49 | elg | i once had to go looking for cows |
| 05:44.17 | elg | they're more expensive to replace than cats |
| 05:45.01 | levi_home | Sure, but your wife doesn't get totally distraught over a cow. |
| 05:45.30 | elg | no, but my aunt and grandparents were totally distraught |
| 05:45.38 | elg | even though it was the neighbor's cow |
| 05:46.14 | elg | we had cats that prowled several square miles probably |
| 05:46.20 | elg | and fended for themselves against coyotes |
| 05:46.23 | elg | it's probably fine |
| 05:48.04 | levi_home | Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's fine, but my wife is a first-class worrier. |
| 05:48.48 | levi_home | A lot of it is because the cat has been indoors most of his life so far; he's only been going outside regularly for a week or two. |
| 06:03.27 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@michmax.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 07:18.04 | herlo | Fedora 8 is booting!!! |
| 07:21.20 | fozzmoo | herlo: This one is for you: http://castro.iodynamics.com/~fozz/girl_in_data_center.jpg |
| 07:22.14 | fozzmoo | She just heard/read that you got Fedora 8 booting. |
| 07:22.29 | herlo | fozzmoo: sweet! |
| 07:22.37 | herlo | I did it in KVM too |
| 07:22.44 | fozzmoo | How's that for some lame gimp compositing? :) |
| 07:22.55 | herlo | ROFLMAO |
| 07:23.01 | herlo | still laughing |
| 07:23.10 | herlo | oooh |
| 07:23.13 | herlo | boy |
| 07:23.29 | herlo | fozzmoo: its perfect |
| 07:23.45 | fozzmoo | I'm a little punchy myself from spending hours looking through stock photography for the new Iodynamics website. |
| 07:24.24 | herlo | fozzmoo: how's that coming? |
| 07:24.29 | fozzmoo | It's up. |
| 07:24.39 | fozzmoo | You could be the first non-Io person to visit. :) |
| 07:24.57 | herlo | probably |
| 07:24.58 | herlo | :) |
| 07:25.17 | herlo | ROFLMAO, another chick who just found out I booted Fedora 8! |
| 07:25.28 | fozzmoo | Heh heh. |
| 07:25.40 | fozzmoo | I was talking to Thom about that picture... and he said it was kinda creepy... |
| 07:25.48 | fozzmoo | then I told him it was for the Iodynamics home page... |
| 07:25.55 | fozzmoo | and then he changed his answer to, "It's perfect!" |
| 07:26.08 | herlo | haha, perfect! |
| 07:26.33 | fozzmoo | I said, "Why creepy?" |
| 07:26.40 | fozzmoo | He said, " there's just a certain...zeal about her, like she might be watching a real-life version of The Running Man, or some other bloodsport. " |
| 07:26.55 | fozzmoo | So... there she is. |
| 07:27.03 | herlo | nice design, but it still feels very "old school" html |
| 07:27.05 | herlo | not sure why |
| 07:27.06 | fozzmoo | She's watching someone about to get their legs pulled off. |
| 07:27.20 | herlo | nice |
| 07:27.26 | fozzmoo | Well, I'm old school. |
| 07:27.36 | fozzmoo | The design is very CSS-based. |
| 07:27.41 | fozzmoo | and it's completely fluid. |
| 07:28.09 | fozzmoo | No tables on this site... not anymore. |
| 07:29.03 | fozzmoo | herlo: Do you know if goozbach is gonna go KVM-crazy with Neverblock? |
| 07:29.11 | fozzmoo | Or will they stick with Xen? |
| 07:29.36 | herlo | fozzmoo: my guess, Xen |
| 07:29.57 | herlo | fozzmoo: wasn't implying that it was HTML Tables, just that it felt that way |
| 07:30.04 | fozzmoo | Yeah. I can see that. |
| 07:30.09 | fozzmoo | It's very... rectangular. :) |
| 07:30.17 | fozzmoo | But, hey, she's plenty happy about it. |
| 07:31.39 | herlo | yes she is! |
| 07:31.43 | herlo | :-D |
| 07:41.48 | findlay | often I subconsciously push meta keys on the keyboard while I'm reading something just for fun and ir really bugs me when windows pops up with some dumb accessibility dialog when I find I've pressed the shift key too many times |
| 07:42.17 | findlay | so I'm always glad to be back in fluxbox or $WM where I can depress the shift key with abandon |
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| 13:40.13 | goozbach | fozzmoo: nice looking site |
| 13:58.25 | elg | man I hate this sorry excuse for student accounts |
| 13:59.21 | elg | they can't keep things in the right columns, tey have no dates, the balance column is run by some completely nonmathematical logic |
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| 14:48.26 | Shadowwire | ~lart getting up at all |
| 14:48.26 | ibot | takes a big bite out of getting up at all's jugular vein |
| 14:48.47 | Shadowwire | ~bite morning |
| 14:48.47 | ibot | ACTION takes a big bite out of morning's jugular vein |
| 14:49.00 | Shadowwire | hello all. |
| 14:49.10 | sinuhe | Hallo |
| 15:09.30 | *** join/#utah wps (n=wps@64.0.193.149) |
| 15:13.20 | maquis | http://xkcd.com/ <-- :) |
| 15:17.47 | levi | So tired. |
| 15:18.14 | levi | Stupid cat had jumped the fence or crawled under or something into the backyard, and was there until the sprinklers turned on at 6am or something. |
| 15:21.07 | *** join/#utah elg (n=fugalh@216.31.27.110) |
| 15:21.13 | levi | Morning, elg. |
| 15:21.29 | *** join/#utah vontrapp (n=von@71-34-2-231.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 15:21.45 | levi | elg: The cat came to the door at around 6am when the sprinklers went on. He was in the back yard, where we didn't think to look because it's got a tall fence. |
| 15:23.25 | vontrapp | ~hug starbucks |
| 15:23.25 | ibot | ACTION hugs starbucks |
| 15:23.32 | *** join/#utah redbeard2 (n=route@209.101.186.195) |
| 15:23.59 | levi | vontrapp: Why are you hugging starbucks? |
| 15:24.29 | Shadowwire | Starbucks is a great pick-me-up on crappy mornings. |
| 15:24.40 | vontrapp | because they have wifi |
| 15:24.41 | vontrapp | i'm in an airport |
| 15:24.58 | levi | So is the fridge at work, fully stocked with Mountain Dew, Coke, etc. |
| 15:25.16 | Shadowwire | Sorry, Just expressing my own starbucks... Um... Whatever. |
| 15:25.26 | vontrapp | and the airports wifi wanted to charge me $8/day |
| 15:25.31 | levi | There's also a free coffee machine at work, though I don't use it. |
| 15:25.49 | Shadowwire | Someone needs to hug Mountain dew. |
| 15:27.43 | vontrapp | well, it's about the crappiest connection in the world, but at least it's something |
| 15:27.47 | vontrapp | 75% packet loss :( |
| 15:28.42 | levi | Yow. |
| 15:28.43 | RyanE | it's the frappuchino machine dripping onto the router. |
| 15:29.09 | Shadowwire | hah. :) |
| 15:30.45 | klys | that would be juicy |
| 15:31.03 | Shadowwire | klys: Sup? |
| 15:31.06 | klys | yo |
| 15:31.17 | klys | I'm looking for montezuma |
| 15:31.25 | Shadowwire | Why? |
| 15:31.34 | klys | because I remember... |
| 15:31.49 | Shadowwire | Is that code for something in linux or something? |
| 15:31.51 | klys | 'sup wid you? |
| 15:32.02 | klys | sound files |
| 15:32.19 | Shadowwire | Im just sitting being confused about Montezuma. ? |
| 15:32.29 | klys | it's sound files man |
| 15:32.54 | Shadowwire | So Montezuma is what you call sound files in Linux? |
| 15:33.00 | klys | cool |
| 15:33.10 | klys | are you running linux? |
| 15:33.27 | Shadowwire | I have fedora running on a virtual machine. |
| 15:33.36 | klys | what does ls say? |
| 15:34.07 | Shadowwire | Hold on a sec. |
| 15:34.25 | klys | hmm, is it a pain to paste back and forth? |
| 15:34.32 | Shadowwire | Yes. |
| 15:34.41 | klys | how do you highlight? |
| 15:35.28 | klys | you know, you should have emacs running and a file open mounted via smbfs at your windows disk |
| 15:35.43 | Shadowwire | you lost me. |
| 15:35.50 | klys | share a drive |
| 15:36.00 | klys | install smbfs package |
| 15:36.13 | Shadowwire | I have a shared drive. |
| 15:36.15 | klys | ping your windows host |
| 15:36.17 | klys | oh |
| 15:36.34 | klys | are you using X or the tty? |
| 15:36.45 | Shadowwire | ? |
| 15:36.59 | klys | is your linux display graphical or textual |
| 15:37.35 | Shadowwire | Graphical, however I have the terminal open. |
| 15:37.40 | klys | k |
| 15:37.58 | klys | can you enter keystrokes such as ctrl+lalt+F7 ? |
| 15:38.18 | Shadowwire | ls says "Desktop Documents Download Music Pictures Public Templates Videos |
| 15:38.48 | Shadowwire | yes? |
| 15:39.27 | klys | are you running gnome or kde? |
| 15:39.36 | Shadowwire | gnome |
| 15:39.55 | klys | also, after you press ctrl+lalt+F1 does the display become textual |
| 15:39.57 | ^Migs^ | it's so annoying when I ask someone a simple question in IM then the first thing they ask for is my phone extension |
| 15:40.19 | klys | yeah, some people refuse to learn |
| 15:40.23 | Shadowwire | Yes. |
| 15:40.36 | klys | k |
| 15:41.00 | klys | so if you press the other keystroke I said earlier, is it now graphical? |
| 15:41.22 | Shadowwire | Affirmitive. |
| 15:41.56 | klys | ok, the textual display is tty1 and you have 6 of them |
| 15:42.02 | klys | I have 24 of them |
| 15:42.15 | Shadowwire | what does that mean? |
| 15:42.32 | klys | alt+F1 ... alt+f6 |
| 15:42.40 | klys | are tty1 ... /dev/tty6 |
| 15:42.50 | klys | alt+F7 is tty7 |
| 15:42.53 | klys | and X |
| 15:43.06 | klys | because X reserved the next available tty |
| 15:43.48 | klys | a tty is a teletype terminal |
| 15:43.58 | klys | your terminal type is linux |
| 15:44.24 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 15:44.28 | klys | I have seen linux, ansi, cygwin, and... maybe one or two others |
| 15:44.45 | klys | a pty is a pseudoterminal |
| 15:44.53 | klys | you get those when using telnet or ssh |
| 15:45.27 | Shadowwire | cool. Go on. |
| 15:45.36 | klys | info libc |
| 15:45.49 | klys | here, I'll tell you how to do something |
| 15:45.51 | Shadowwire | come agai? |
| 15:45.53 | Shadowwire | n |
| 15:46.01 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 15:46.03 | klys | do you have the package 'screen' installed |
| 15:46.09 | Shadowwire | ? |
| 15:46.17 | *** part/#utah Yorokobi (n=Yorokobi@unaffiliated/yorokobi) |
| 15:46.26 | Shadowwire | how can i tell? |
| 15:46.30 | klys | can you type screen at a tty, then type C-a C-d to detach |
| 15:47.01 | Shadowwire | what is the syntax? |
| 15:47.09 | klys | ctrl+a ctrl+d |
| 15:47.13 | klys | man screen |
| 15:47.28 | klys | screen --help |
| 15:48.15 | klys | screen -r to resume, screen -r 1234 to resume 1234, screen -d -r 1234 to kick and attach, screen -xr 1234 to share |
| 15:48.31 | Shadowwire | somehow i got logged out. |
| 15:48.37 | klys | now, consider whether is smaller, your tty or your xterm |
| 15:48.55 | klys | ah, ctrl+d is EOF |
| 15:49.26 | klys | you must not have screen installed |
| 15:49.44 | klys | I mean, it says something like 'command not found'? |
| 15:50.06 | Shadowwire | yes |
| 15:50.21 | klys | look for the package and install it with rpm -i |
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| 15:50.54 | Shadowwire | um. |
| 15:51.04 | klys | is it on a cd? |
| 15:51.09 | Shadowwire | no |
| 15:51.20 | klys | do you have mandrake cooker apt? |
| 15:51.23 | Shadowwire | Can i find it online? |
| 15:51.28 | klys | rpmfind.net |
| 15:51.29 | Shadowwire | a wha? |
| 15:51.40 | klys | you want the same distro version you're using |
| 15:52.11 | Shadowwire | where do I find what distro im using? |
| 15:52.15 | klys | hmm |
| 15:52.29 | klys | in /etc/motd |
| 15:52.33 | klys | cat /etc/motd |
| 15:52.50 | elg | cat /etc/issue if that doesn't work |
| 15:52.55 | klys | right thx |
| 15:53.02 | elg | you know, if you happen to have a WORTHWHILE motd |
| 15:53.16 | ^Migs^ | how do I find out which version of Linux I'm using? |
| 15:53.25 | elg | ditto |
| 15:53.26 | klys | uname -r |
| 15:53.42 | ^Migs^ | no, that's the kernel |
| 15:53.45 | elg | ^Migs^: klys has a good point. do you mean kernel version or distro version? |
| 15:53.50 | ^Migs^ | sorry, distro version |
| 15:53.51 | klys | uh, linux? |
| 15:53.53 | klys | ok |
| 15:53.59 | unum | technically linux is the kernel |
| 15:54.06 | ^Migs^ | yeah, you're right. My bad. Stop correcting me. |
| 15:54.11 | ^Migs^ | I already know I'm wrong. |
| 15:54.15 | elg | ^Migs^: you're wrong |
| 15:54.20 | ^Migs^ | Thank you elg. |
| 15:54.21 | klys | now go to the corner |
| 15:54.21 | unum | sorry I saw you corrected it after I posted |
| 15:54.27 | klys | ;) |
| 15:54.38 | elg | ^Migs^: what's more, you forgot the GNU/ |
| 15:54.45 | unum | doesn't it say the distro name somewhere? |
| 15:54.46 | elg | ~lynch ^Migs^ |
| 15:54.53 | ^Migs^ | wow, I should just go hang myself right now |
| 15:54.57 | klys | so, your /etc/apt/sources.list |
| 15:54.58 | elg | unum: usually in /etc/issue |
| 15:55.16 | unum | I think debian tells you when you login |
| 15:55.20 | unum | don't they all do that |
| 15:55.37 | klys | I touch /etc/sel/.hushlogin |
| 15:55.38 | elg | not necessarily, but I think it's common practice |
| 15:55.39 | Shadowwire | im using release 7 (moonshine) |
| 15:55.39 | klys | skel |
| 15:55.48 | unum | nope redhat doesn't... |
| 15:55.55 | elg | unless you make a real motd instead of some stupid advertisement and disclaimer of warranty |
| 15:55.56 | klys | use only those packages from rpmfind.net |
| 15:56.00 | klys | the moonshine ones |
| 15:56.21 | unum | the /etc/issue seems to be the right place to look |
| 15:56.29 | klys | I like the colorized motd's that assume your screen has 80 columns |
| 15:56.30 | elg | something like this for example. :) |
| 15:56.31 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.31 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.31 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.31 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.31 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.32 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.35 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:56.37 | elg | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:57.19 | Shadowwire | How odd? |
| 15:57.36 | klys | without -Row, I think it's bison |
| 15:57.45 | klys | or a beetle |
| 15:58.04 | klys | wait there's a head in the middle |
| 15:58.13 | klys | it's a gnu |
| 15:58.20 | unum | aaah |
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| 15:58.55 | atoponce | what in the world is that? |
| 15:59.08 | klys | archaic ascii art |
| 15:59.18 | Shadowwire | Looks like a space ship. |
| 15:59.21 | klys | not even any ibm extended ascii |
| 15:59.39 | atoponce | a side view of the millenium falcon? |
| 15:59.50 | klys | top view, ship facing down |
| 16:00.02 | Shadowwire | Yea, thats got to be it. |
| 16:00.32 | klys | do you have putty installed too? |
| 16:01.01 | vontrapp | yes, it's the millenium falcon |
| 16:01.06 | vontrapp | the name of the computer it's on is falcon |
| 16:01.09 | vontrapp | it's the bestest motd |
| 16:01.15 | klys | I wish putty was nicer with the clipboard, but it works all the time, so, usually got to use it |
| 16:02.24 | klys | anyone here have a linuxcare pocket cd? |
| 16:03.23 | klys | guess not |
| 16:04.05 | Shadowwire | Ok. im having difficulty figuring out which package to download. |
| 16:04.23 | klys | shadowwire: you should run a moonedit session on windows and bip into it from X |
| 16:04.49 | klys | all the ones mentioned? |
| 16:04.57 | Shadowwire | Yet again. Wha? |
| 16:05.10 | klys | is rpmfind giving you an architecture choice? |
| 16:05.21 | Shadowwire | Yes |
| 16:05.27 | klys | use i386 |
| 16:05.33 | Shadowwire | I dont see anything later than 5. |
| 16:05.39 | klys | then i586 |
| 16:06.00 | vontrapp | Shadowwire: the thing to do first is see if you have some kind of package manager |
| 16:06.08 | vontrapp | then, if you find that, search in it for screen |
| 16:06.14 | vontrapp | then it should automatically install it |
| 16:06.49 | Shadowwire | ok. |
| 16:07.11 | Shadowwire | since vontrapp just left, anyone else know how to do that? |
| 16:07.19 | klys | no, he didn't either |
| 16:07.31 | Shadowwire | I see. |
| 16:07.46 | Shadowwire | Was he just trying to confuse me? |
| 16:08.01 | Shadowwire | Because it sure sounded good. |
| 16:08.11 | klys | keep in mind you have many sources for information on how to do things, so you're not always asking me when I don't have the best answer |
| 16:08.28 | Shadowwire | col. |
| 16:08.31 | Shadowwire | cool. |
| 16:08.35 | Shadowwire | :) |
| 16:08.40 | klys | :) |
| 16:09.36 | klys | with mandrake, one version of mandrake uses mandrake-cooker |
| 16:09.37 | Shadowwire | Ok, so if it says "Fedora core 4 for i386" will that work? |
| 16:09.48 | klys | still rpmfind |
| 16:09.55 | Shadowwire | yes |
| 16:10.08 | klys | so, no apt |
| 16:10.32 | Shadowwire | wha? is getting old. |
| 16:10.37 | Shadowwire | apt? |
| 16:10.41 | klys | you want to avoid this problem I've been telling you about it for a long time |
| 16:10.56 | Shadowwire | huh? |
| 16:11.13 | Shadowwire | What, Getting old? |
| 16:11.39 | klys | using an rpm system, you have to not use apt, and you're basically using an rpm installer. I've seen them they're usually gui installers |
| 16:12.41 | Shadowwire | so I want an apt, not an rpm? |
| 16:12.44 | klys | like kpackage |
| 16:12.50 | klys | look for that in X |
| 16:12.58 | Shadowwire | what is x? |
| 16:13.04 | klys | your GUI |
| 16:13.10 | klys | it should be on the menu |
| 16:13.14 | Shadowwire | x windows, I see now. |
| 16:13.17 | klys | in a prominent location |
| 16:13.46 | klys | yes, x, xorg, x11, X11R6, xfree86, X, F7, etc. |
| 16:14.50 | klys | X runs on windows did you know that? |
| 16:15.11 | Shadowwire | no |
| 16:15.49 | klys | keep a log of the packages I keep mentioning so you know what to download next |
| 16:16.02 | klys | moonedit |
| 16:16.05 | Shadowwire | um, ok. |
| 16:16.06 | klys | and screen |
| 16:16.32 | klys | and hnb because it does cool xml |
| 16:16.51 | klys | do you have python webhosting? |
| 16:17.00 | Shadowwire | im trying to fing the package manager right? |
| 16:17.08 | klys | k |
| 16:20.54 | klys | gnome-package-manager? |
| 16:23.48 | Shadowwire | software updater, perhaps? |
| 16:24.06 | klys | anaconda |
| 16:24.16 | Shadowwire | say wha? |
| 16:24.18 | klys | I found it at http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 |
| 16:24.32 | klys | look for anaconda or just type it into xterm as root |
| 16:24.49 | klys | so you might have to su, then type anaconda |
| 16:25.52 | Shadowwire | so, you want me to go into the terminal, and then type anaconda? |
| 16:25.59 | Shadowwire | command not found |
| 16:26.00 | klys | the xterm |
| 16:26.08 | Shadowwire | xterm? |
| 16:26.21 | Shadowwire | ctrl alt f1? |
| 16:26.23 | klys | the terminal could refer to either the xterm or any tty, so it's ambiguous |
| 16:26.34 | klys | use your x terminal |
| 16:26.35 | Shadowwire | ok, gotcha. |
| 16:27.13 | Shadowwire | -bach: anaconda: command not found |
| 16:27.18 | klys | hmm |
| 16:27.31 | Shadowwire | now what. |
| 16:27.36 | klys | I just found it in the article, reality may be different |
| 16:27.46 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 16:28.01 | klys | the guy who recommended you install fedora should provide this level of support or I call BS |
| 16:28.09 | *** join/#utah tiwula (n=lane@195.sub-166-161-154.myvzw.com) |
| 16:28.14 | Shadowwire | he's on vacation. |
| 16:28.18 | klys | hehe |
| 16:28.33 | Shadowwire | you call BS on what? |
| 16:28.41 | klys | the recommendation |
| 16:28.43 | Shadowwire | :) |
| 16:28.57 | Shadowwire | I see. (: |
| 16:29.12 | klys | so, what else is nre |
| 16:29.14 | klys | new |
| 16:29.19 | klys | and ready to eat |
| 16:29.23 | klys | mre |
| 16:29.28 | klys | hmm |
| 16:29.48 | klys | burrito! |
| 16:35.25 | *** join/#utah tonedevf (n=dave@155.100.73.251) |
| 16:35.30 | *** part/#utah tonedevf (n=dave@155.100.73.251) |
| 16:35.35 | *** join/#utah tonedevf (n=dave@155.100.73.251) |
| 16:37.18 | Shadowwire | ok, so where can I get the version of linux that you are using? |
| 16:37.22 | Shadowwire | klys: |
| 16:37.49 | Shadowwire | I will install in on a virtual machine and turn this fedora7 off. |
| 16:39.06 | klys | shadowwire: reserve 6-7 GB |
| 16:39.16 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 16:39.18 | klys | and I will give you a cd .iso to burn |
| 16:39.22 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 16:39.31 | Shadowwire | do you have an ftp? |
| 16:40.13 | *** join/#utah moriancumer (n=jared@c-67-177-42-19.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:40.20 | klys | I have ftp access to two sites, but this is public |
| 16:40.37 | *** join/#utah Yorokobi (n=Yorokobi@unaffiliated/yorokobi) |
| 16:40.48 | Shadowwire | ok. |
| 16:41.14 | klys | www.debian.org/CD |
| 16:41.25 | klys | get the netinstall iso |
| 16:41.27 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: What is the problem with fedora? Lots and lots of people use fedora. But Debian is good too. :) |
| 16:41.46 | klys | we can't find the package manager anaconda |
| 16:41.51 | Shadowwire | difficulty finding a package manager. |
| 16:41.58 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: Like, yum? |
| 16:42.02 | Shadowwire | sure? |
| 16:42.17 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: What do you want yum to do that it doesn't do? |
| 16:42.19 | Shadowwire | I know nothing about Linux. |
| 16:42.30 | klys | type yum as root in xterm |
| 16:42.32 | *** join/#utah sinuhe (n=sinuhe@64-205-130-223.client.dsl.net) |
| 16:42.55 | Shadowwire | I just unloaded the VM. Let me reload it. |
| 16:43.02 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: I do 'yum install <package>' or 'yum upgrade' |
| 16:43.16 | klys | ok, yum update |
| 16:43.26 | Shadowwire | so, yum is the package manager? |
| 16:43.32 | klys | guess so |
| 16:43.38 | rsimpkins | update, oops. I'm too sleepy. :) |
| 16:44.24 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: Now, arguably apt/aptitude are much better package managers - found in debian - but for most of what I do yum is sufficient. |
| 16:45.37 | Shadowwire | can fedora run apt/aptitude? like can it be loaded as a package? |
| 16:45.57 | klys | only mandrake-cooker can use rpms over apt |
| 16:46.07 | Shadowwire | ok |
| 16:46.29 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: Let me check.... |
| 16:46.36 | klys | you'd be up to the whim of mandrake and who knows if they're doing like redhat |
| 16:47.06 | *** join/#utah thaddeusq (n=thaddeus@216.49.181.128) |
| 16:47.09 | Shadowwire | ok yum works. |
| 16:47.57 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: If you haven't updated yet, do yum update |
| 16:47.57 | Supaplex | but they renamed to mandriva |
| 16:48.18 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: The fedora project is a moving target, they frequently push out updates. |
| 16:49.25 | Shadowwire | ok. What is the syntax for updating? |
| 16:49.35 | Supaplex | yum update |
| 16:49.56 | Shadowwire | seems to be working. |
| 16:50.54 | *** join/#utah bmidgley (n=bmidgley@242.sub-75-216-41.myvzw.com) |
| 16:53.12 | rsimpkins | Shadowwire: I recommend you get a VM going with Debian as well. For servers I prefer Debian stable, or CentOS. |
| 16:56.04 | klys | rsimpkins: does that really help with the clipboard? |
| 16:57.00 | rsimpkins | klys: I'm lost, what? |
| 16:57.16 | klys | I mean, does it allow you to paste between vms |
| 16:57.34 | rsimpkins | Does what allow you to paste? |
| 16:57.44 | klys | vmware for debian |
| 17:01.14 | klys | wait, you were recommending running debian in a vm, at the same time as fedora |
| 17:01.57 | klys | shadowwire: since it's an hour from whenever, copy this chat session to a log or text file |
| 17:03.45 | *** join/#utah steve8track (n=steve@trapezewireless175.insecure.utah.edu) |
| 17:04.05 | *** part/#utah steve8track (n=steve@trapezewireless175.insecure.utah.edu) |
| 17:11.28 | *** join/#utah fozzmoo (n=fozz@65.89.234.66) |
| 17:12.01 | klys | m |
| 17:13.29 | klys | don't worry, it'll have a motd |
| 17:16.14 | klys | shadowwire: where are you 4 hours from now? |
| 17:17.11 | klys | ditch the lessons and buy an encyclopedia |
| 17:17.46 | klys | an be warned, no one is being warned about the tower |
| 17:17.56 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@160.79.186.34) |
| 17:18.43 | sjansen | An announcement: I have decided that "Backup Up ___" is awkward and silly. From now on I intend to say "Back Upping ___" |
| 17:19.20 | klys | sjansen: are you still upping your cd collection? |
| 17:19.29 | klys | ;) |
| 17:20.03 | sjansen | I vaguely remember what CDs are, but could you remind me again? |
| 17:20.18 | klys | cd-quality is 128 kbps |
| 17:20.57 | klys | the cd-rw is the real money in america |
| 17:21.39 | klys | someone's business card will fit in someone's camcorder |
| 17:22.38 | sjansen | uh... huh? |
| 17:22.43 | klys | oh, remind |
| 17:22.50 | klys | 700 MB |
| 17:22.55 | klys | that's a cd |
| 17:23.23 | klys | 80 minutes of uncompressed pcm |
| 17:23.48 | levi | klys appears to be on a stream-of-consciousness kick this morning. |
| 17:24.06 | klys | I was more reminisce, like, remind for the sake of |
| 17:30.54 | ^Migs^ | http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/bring-me-solo-and-the-wookiee-they-will-all-suffr-4-dis-outrage_r.jpg |
| 17:33.27 | klys | anyone who says wookie is not being serious |
| 17:39.20 | levi | I'm not sure what would make you think that there was any attempt at seriousness. |
| 17:39.48 | klys | it was a glaring pun and it needed an expose |
| 17:43.58 | klys | in irc, the eye is directed to the bottom line |
| 17:44.18 | klys | we think we know everything |
| 17:44.23 | klys | we're so stuck up |
| 17:44.31 | klys | our cursor is beneath us |
| 17:48.14 | ^Migs^ | Graduate unemployment is highest among those who achieve the lowest grades, a study suggests. |
| 17:48.22 | ^Migs^ | WOW GOOD RESEARCH THERE |
| 17:48.25 | ^Migs^ | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6947621.stm |
| 17:50.34 | sjansen | Hey, sometimes research turns up surprising results. |
| 17:51.04 | sjansen | It wouldn't have surprised me if they'd discovered really high grades == loves school too much == not good in the real world == lower pay. |
| 17:51.10 | klys | some employment applications actually ask for the gpa |
| 17:52.09 | goozbach | I didn't go to college and look at me... I'm KICK-A! |
| 17:52.22 | klys | 2:00 doesn't seem like it's too bad |
| 17:52.27 | sjansen | Another possible theory is: low grades == entered work force during school == higher salary. |
| 17:53.11 | sjansen | goozbach: Hate to break it to you, but the fact that people enjoy kicking your posture does not qualify you for a high salary. |
| 17:55.01 | sjansen | Oh bother, sjansen said, there I go again. If I can't say something nice... |
| 17:59.44 | goozbach | if it makes you feel any better, I have to use debian for a short while here (until I completely re-vamp my infrastructure) |
| 17:59.52 | goozbach | it's painful |
| 18:00.02 | Supaplex | painful? |
| 18:00.15 | fozzmoo | goozbach is a RH-type guy. |
| 18:00.40 | fozzmoo | goozbach: I woudl find that painful too... but, thankfully, Linux is Linux is LInux |
| 18:00.41 | Supaplex | ahh. |
| 18:01.17 | fozzmoo | goozbach: If it gets to be too painful, just take a moment and close your eyes and remind yourself that you're gonna be getting hitched soon. |
| 18:01.33 | fozzmoo | :) |
| 18:02.08 | goozbach | yeah there is that! |
| 18:02.27 | fozzmoo | goozbach: As for your success in life, you're definitely the exception and not the rule. |
| 18:02.51 | fozzmoo | Having worked with you a bit, I can say it kinda tells you didn't finish college. :) |
| 18:03.08 | goozbach | for all of those who missed my reference, go rent/netflix/watch/steal "Orange County" right now! |
| 18:03.11 | fozzmoo | That's not meant as a disparaging comment or anything. |
| 18:03.23 | goozbach | fozzmoo: how so? |
| 18:03.44 | goozbach | it's cause I'm hippy-ish? |
| 18:03.45 | fozzmoo | The whole purpose of college, IMO, is to prove to an official institution that you are capable of jumping through hoops. |
| 18:03.57 | fozzmoo | That's 99% of what college degree is all about. |
| 18:04.04 | goozbach | you're saying I'm not a hoop-jumper? |
| 18:04.10 | goozbach | ibot: get me a hoop! |
| 18:04.14 | fozzmoo | heh. |
| 18:04.27 | fozzmoo | Doing that for 4, 5 or more years, does something to a person. |
| 18:04.42 | fozzmoo | Whether that thing is good or bad isn't really the issue. |
| 18:04.43 | goozbach | I'm glad I'm not a hoop jumper |
| 18:04.51 | goozbach | it fits well with the ethos here: |
| 18:05.15 | fozzmoo | When people require a degree for a job, I think that's really what they're looking for... |
| 18:05.23 | fozzmoo | not education or skills- but committment to finish stuff. |
| 18:05.29 | tensai | goozbach: hoop jumper, no. but you are a hoopy frood. |
| 18:05.34 | fozzmoo | hee hee. |
| 18:05.43 | goozbach | "ask questions, challenge assumptions" --CXRi ethos |
| 18:06.22 | goozbach | I blame canada, and tensai for all my frood-isms |
| 18:07.40 | fozzmoo | goozbach: I think I'm very similiar.... it took me 11-12 years to get my bachelors |
| 18:08.59 | klys | shadowwire: ping |
| 18:09.22 | goozbach | meh, I don't want a degree anymore |
| 18:09.56 | klys | and you decided this while staring at irc? |
| 18:10.06 | fozzmoo | Researchers found that most people rated their time at university as the best years of their life, closely followed by their retirement years. |
| 18:10.18 | fozzmoo | http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23408430-details/Why+the+late-30s+are+a+man's+misery+years/article.do |
| 18:10.58 | fozzmoo | And then there's me... at 35... entering, what this study says is, the worst 9 years of my life. |
| 18:12.10 | tensai | if last year wasn't the best year of your life, you're not trying hard enough |
| 18:14.46 | goozbach | I'd say that the last two years have been the best ones of my life so far |
| 18:15.06 | goozbach | the last 16 months or so, even more so |
| 18:15.14 | Shadowwire | PONG |
| 18:15.52 | klys | cool |
| 18:15.57 | Shadowwire | School is good... For those who are good at it. |
| 18:16.00 | klys | where are you in 4 hours? |
| 18:16.09 | Shadowwire | Here at work. |
| 18:16.13 | klys | doing? |
| 18:16.40 | fozzmoo | How dare you do something without first consulting with klys?! |
| 18:17.19 | klys | hpw dare I wait for something without first consulting with my schedule |
| 18:17.20 | Shadowwire | Who knows. Installing a toilet, resurching a decent network backup, Patching Drywall, Drooling on my keyboard half asleap. |
| 18:17.28 | klys | k |
| 18:17.37 | Shadowwire | Why? |
| 18:17.57 | klys | because work is so unstructured, I'm starting to think you don't like it |
| 18:18.10 | Shadowwire | Not today i dont. |
| 18:18.18 | klys | I mean, you could |
| 18:18.22 | klys | I could |
| 18:18.30 | Shadowwire | could what? |
| 18:18.34 | klys | like a job |
| 18:18.44 | Shadowwire | I do like my job most days. |
| 18:19.02 | Shadowwire | Days that I forget to stub out for a toilet suck. |
| 18:19.29 | klys | well, do they have you on a radio? |
| 18:19.41 | Shadowwire | I have a company phone. |
| 18:19.43 | *** join/#utah ti`ocpi (n=Chelle@michmax.dsl.xmission.com) |
| 18:20.16 | Shadowwire | Somedays I just want to murder someone. |
| 18:20.18 | klys | ok, you can tell when it's an involved call I guess |
| 18:20.32 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@160.79.186.34) |
| 18:20.43 | Shadowwire | what the hail? |
| 18:20.55 | *** join/#utah sjansen (n=sjansen@160.79.186.34) |
| 18:21.03 | klys | he's bowing to ibot |
| 18:21.10 | Shadowwire | the hail with king hermit. |
| 18:21.16 | klys | is it beneath him? |
| 18:21.29 | Shadowwire | maybe? |
| 18:21.32 | klys | yes |
| 18:21.38 | Shadowwire | fair enuph. |
| 18:21.56 | Shadowwire | well, I gotta go fix stuff. Later. |
| 18:22.10 | klys | so, when you get an involved call and we've been talking, maybe punch a letter, like `m' |
| 18:22.24 | klys | k? |
| 18:22.30 | klys | ciao |
| 18:22.35 | Shadowwire | Ill be back. M |
| 18:22.46 | Shadowwire | or was that "m"? |
| 18:22.51 | klys | either way |
| 18:22.55 | Shadowwire | cool. |
| 18:22.55 | klys | eMphasis |
| 18:22.58 | Shadowwire | m |
| 18:28.58 | ^Migs^ | http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/roo/394685593.html |
| 18:30.27 | *** join/#utah linuxalien (i=nobody@oalug/member/linuxalien) |
| 18:30.34 | findlay | hello |
| 18:30.39 | klys | 'lo |
| 18:30.42 | findlay | ~hail the sjansen hermit |
| 18:30.42 | ibot | ACTION bows down to the sjansen hermit and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" |
| 18:36.46 | ^Migs^ | http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6624865 |
| 18:38.12 | ^Migs^ | Moscow - A Russian region of Ulyanovsk has found a novel way to fight the nation's birth-rate crisis: It has declared Sept. 12 the Day of Conception and for the third year running is giving couples time off from work to procreate. |
| 18:38.41 | linuxalien | wow. sounds fun! |
| 18:38.51 | findlay | ~migs linuxalien |
| 18:38.51 | ibot | ACTION forces linuxalien to learn perl from ^Migs^ |
| 18:39.09 | linuxalien | Not Perl! Nooooooooooooo! |
| 18:39.28 | Supaplex | and not from ^Migs^ ;) |
| 18:39.44 | ^Migs^ | BWAHAHAHAHAHA |
| 18:42.23 | linuxalien | :) |
| 18:42.25 | linuxalien | hehe |
| 18:47.35 | findlay | this is a first rate opportunity to get married with impunity |
| 18:47.45 | findlay | by a doctor of divinity who resides in this viscinity |
| 18:50.57 | linuxalien | marriage is evil! |
| 18:51.12 | linuxalien | It's like lord of the rings...one ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them! |
| 18:51.37 | Tene | I want that bind shird. |
| 18:53.49 | Tene | https://secure.isc.org/index.pl?/store/t-shirt/ |
| 18:54.03 | Tene | "One name daemon to rule them all and in the darkness bind them" |
| 18:55.20 | linuxalien | Wow, my browser is loading slow |
| 19:00.44 | *** join/#utah kreg (n=kreg@208.98.188.95) |
| 19:03.24 | *** part/#utah tonedevf (n=dave@155.100.73.251) |
| 19:14.34 | *** join/#utah neybar (n=jalance@pollux.northsky.com) |
| 19:15.45 | klys | #include <stdlib.h> #include <unistd.h> #include <utmp.h> int sis() { utmp* boom = new utmp; *boom = ( utmp ){ USER_PROCESS, 0, "", "sis", "bah", "localhost", { 0, 0 }, 0, { 0, 0 }, { 127, 0, 0, 1 } }; login( boom ); delete boom; for(;;) pause(); } #include <sys/types.h> #include <stdio.h> bool done = false; int in = STDIN_FILENO; void io( int signal ) { fd_set inputs; struct timeval time_zero = { 0, 0 }; for(;;) { FD_ZERO( &inputs ); FD_SET( in, &inputs ); int co |
| 19:16.17 | Supaplex | too long... |
| 19:16.27 | *** join/#utah JoshH (i=josh@josh.xmission.com) |
| 19:16.54 | klys | basically it adds an entry to `who` |
| 19:18.01 | levi | klys: Yuck. |
| 19:20.26 | klys | bah was logged in |
| 19:20.57 | klys | hit enter and he's not |
| 19:21.00 | levi | What's with this 'new' and 'delete' stuff? |
| 19:21.24 | klys | well it's c++ code |
| 19:21.30 | klys | I do new by default |
| 19:23.01 | levi | That's C code with 'new' and 'delete' in it where malloc and free should be. |
| 19:23.12 | klys | there's a bool |
| 19:23.28 | levi | Just a typedef away from C. |
| 19:23.40 | klys | you want to make it look ugly? |
| 19:23.57 | levi | It's C. It already looks ugly. |
| 19:24.09 | klys | you were predecided on the yuck |
| 19:24.26 | levi | There's also the little matter that it lacks any kind of sensible formatting. |
| 19:24.39 | klys | just...makes it easier to read |
| 19:24.41 | klys | ;) |
| 19:25.32 | levi | And the fact that it got cut off after 'int c' |
| 19:25.51 | *** part/#utah Yorokobi (n=Yorokobi@unaffiliated/yorokobi) |
| 19:26.27 | klys | oh... that's int count; must be your irc client. I use irssi |
| 19:26.44 | levi | No, that's your irc client not realizing where the server cuts off lines. |
| 19:27.58 | klys | well, you deserve the rest |
| 19:28.19 | klys | int count = select( FD_SETSIZE, &inputs, NULL, NULL, &time_zero ); if( count == 0 ) break; if( FD_ISSET( in, &inputs ) ) { short data = 0; int rc = read( in, &data, 1 ); if( rc > 0 ) { printf( "%c\n", ( char )data ); } } } } #include <signal.h> int main( int argc, char* argv ) { pid_t pid; if( 0 == ( pid = fork() ) ) sis(); signal( SIGIO, io ); while( !done ) pause(); return 0; } |
| 19:28.41 | *** join/#utah tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.180.56) |
| 19:29.54 | sinuhe | I have irssi with that problem, but 0.8.10. I notice that 0.8.11 has released, but I haven't checked through the News file yet to see if it patched the problem. |
| 19:31.55 | levi | klys: That's not /my/ limit, it's the irc server's limit. |
| 19:32.44 | Supaplex | perl -MPOSIX -MSys::Utmp -e '$g=Sys::Utmp->new();g->setutent(type=>USER_PROCESS,pid=>$$,host=>UT_HOSTSIZE,addr=>0,user=>getpwuid($<));' |
| 19:32.56 | sinuhe | levi: Right, but with irssi 0.8.10 at least the client doesn't have a mechanism to either break up the text into separate entries, or find another solution. |
| 19:32.57 | Supaplex | ;) |
| 19:33.00 | Supaplex | untested. |
| 19:33.09 | levi | sinuhe: Indeed. |
| 19:33.30 | levi | sinuhe: My comment was to contest the insinuation that my client was still somehow at fault. |
| 19:34.01 | levi | Or that I had anything to do with the truncation of the not-quite-C code. |
| 19:34.15 | Supaplex | yes, your client is defunct |
| 19:34.22 | Supaplex | my irssi does it all the time |
| 19:34.23 | Supaplex | Irssi 0.8.10 (20051211) - http://irssi.org/ |
| 19:34.46 | Supaplex | s/your client/irssi/ |
| 19:35.01 | levi | My client at the moment is xchat, and it knows how to properly deal with this situation. |
| 19:35.29 | levi | It talks to the server when it connects to find the max line length and breaks messages into appropriately-sized chunks. |
| 19:36.06 | levi | Anyway. |
| 19:36.18 | sjansen | ~sjansen |
| 19:36.19 | ibot | sjansen is one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is |
| 19:36.31 | sjansen | Oh, good, goozbach hasn't stolen my froodishness. |
| 19:36.44 | klys | anyone who says frood is not being serious |
| 19:36.55 | klys | ;) |
| 19:37.01 | sinuhe | levi: Which client did you say you were using? |
| 19:37.06 | fozzmoo | I dunno. I think sjansen is pretty serious about being a frood. |
| 19:37.08 | Supaplex | anyone that expects #utah to be serious is a frood |
| 19:37.33 | sinuhe | Supaplex: You doubt my seriousness? Are you threatning me? |
| 19:37.42 | klys | fordoidister |
| 19:37.44 | levi | I am firmly of the opinion that C++ should not be used as a fancy C compiler with 'new' and 'delete' to replace malloc and free. C++ has its place, but simply covering over malloc and free is not that place. |
| 19:37.45 | sjansen | I've noticed klys like to repeat certain phrase when triggered by certain words. Any bets on whether klys is a really smart bot? ;-) |
| 19:37.50 | Supaplex | s/to /to always / |
| 19:38.20 | sinuhe | Supaplex: Oh, sure. :-) |
| 19:38.27 | levi | sinuhe: The answer to that ought to still be on your screen, or at least only a little ways back in the buffer. |
| 19:38.35 | sjansen | C++ has a place as a form of torture. |
| 19:39.08 | levi | C++ has a place as a way to create abstractions that C can't. If you're not going to use them, just use C. |
| 19:39.11 | klys | c++ works, and anyone who says it doesn't is probably using c |
| 19:39.52 | sjansen | C++ works poorly, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't tried to use it with anything other than a recent version of g++. |
| 19:40.18 | sinuhe | levi: As for irssi, I take advantage of the bug to pair down how much I blather. :-) |
| 19:40.19 | klys | sjansen: poorly with what wrapper? |
| 19:40.39 | sjansen | C++ is too mutable, too variable, too big. |
| 19:40.51 | levi | klys: Heh. Says the guy who just wrote a C program with it. |
| 19:40.51 | klys | you understood the code too |
| 19:41.27 | levi | C++0x looks like a promising update to the language. |
| 19:41.51 | sjansen | It's insane the switching compiler version can result in incompatible code. It's insane that hardware and compiler designers had to design their own ABI instead have a nice reliable, compatible, universal standard. |
| 19:42.50 | sinuhe | sjansen: What's your take on Objective C? |
| 19:42.58 | sjansen | Have access to HP-UX? Try mixing acc and gcc C code. No problem. Now try mixing C++ code. |
| 19:43.24 | klys | still uses the Yuck operator (new) |
| 19:43.36 | sjansen | Have access to g++ 2.95 and g++ 4.1? Try mixing C code (within reason). Now try mixing C++ code. |
| 19:43.54 | sjansen | sinuhe: I've never felt a need to explore Objective C. |
| 19:44.09 | levi | sjansen: It remains true, however, that there's no other language that provides the same power to create abstraction combined with nearly complete control over the resulting executable code. |
| 19:44.36 | sjansen | If GNUstep weren't irrelevant and Mac OS proprietary, I might care more about Objective C. |
| 19:44.51 | levi | sjansen: It's not often that the average programmer needs a tool like that, and I wish there was another alternative, but the fact still stands. |
| 19:45.05 | klys | sjansen: what's the main task package for GNUstep ? |
| 19:45.56 | klys | gnustep-core, nm |
| 19:45.58 | sinuhe | One of the problems I observe (or perhaps that I have been trained to observe) is C++ programmers who program as if they are using C. The two "styles" don't mix. |
| 19:45.58 | sinuhe | sjansen: What makes GNUstep irrelevant? |
| 19:45.59 | sjansen | The fact also stands the you can redefine the + sign to perform a SOAP connection and dynamically grow a link list by added the result of an XSLT tranformation or the SOAP reply. |
| 19:46.14 | sjansen | That kind of power I don't need or want. |
| 19:46.41 | levi | sinuhe: That's precisely what I'm complaining to klys about. |
| 19:46.48 | klys | metaintuitive |
| 19:47.08 | klys | not for formalists |
| 19:47.16 | klys | a hack to read |
| 19:47.31 | sjansen | sinuhe: I'm not going to try to explain why GNUstep is irrelevant to a person that uses a mail client without proper MIME support. |
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| 19:48.02 | sjansen | You're just a bit too... individualist for me to easily explain my reasoning. |
| 19:48.02 | sinuhe | Ouch. |
| 19:48.22 | levi | sjansen: I think you're being a bit disingenuous. It's just ad-hoc polymorphism applied more generally to the language. |
| 19:48.26 | sinuhe | metamail is sufficient, barring the multipart/alternative bug. |
| 19:48.48 | sjansen | Fine, I'll try. |
| 19:49.32 | klys | not easy to rewrite the username when sending SMTP |
| 19:49.37 | sjansen | GNUstep is not widely used. Until Mac OS, neither was *STEP. It might have had some cool ideas, but so do a lot of other projects. |
| 19:49.45 | sjansen | They're usually called research projects. |
| 19:50.09 | levi | *STEP was quite a bit beyond the research project stage and into the niche market stage. |
| 19:50.30 | levi | You don't find research projects on the shelf at the local computer superstore. |
| 19:51.18 | sjansen | There's nothing wrong with being a research project as long as you admit you are. When the project turns into a quixotic quest to roll be the clock to a different decade... you're wasting your time. If you admit it's a waste of time and you're just doing it for fun, fine. But don't pretend you're going to change the world or you'll just be left behind. |
| 19:51.24 | klys | anyone here have a linuxcare busines card? |
| 19:51.34 | klys | s/sin/ssin/ |
| 19:51.40 | klys | pff |
| 19:51.52 | klys | ness |
| 19:51.56 | levi | klys: YOU LOSE |
| 19:52.47 | sjansen | sinuhe: Have you read the history of Xanadu (the program, not the legend)? That's what I mean by irrelevant. |
| 19:53.19 | klys | was it some type of hypertexting program? |
| 19:53.31 | klys | there were early ones, like texinfo |
| 19:53.41 | levi | I would say GNUStep maintains a sliver of relevance due to its similarity to Cocoa, which is definitely relevant to a growing share of the PC market. |
| 19:53.58 | sjansen | http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html |
| 19:54.07 | klys | k |
| 19:54.22 | sjansen | klys: It was/is/may someday be. |
| 19:54.41 | klys | hypertext library |
| 19:54.59 | klys | smells like vaporware |
| 19:55.07 | levi | No kidding. |
| 19:55.32 | sjansen | levi: But is anyone actually using GNUstep to port Mac apps to Linux? Will they? Has anything groundbreaking been written using GNUstep? The only thing I can think of is opengroupware and I'm not a big fan. |
| 19:56.19 | sjansen | If the goal of GNUstep is to bring Cocoa apps to F/OSS systems, they've got a whole lot more work to do. |
| 19:56.21 | levi | sjansen: I don't recall if anyone's tried to port Mac apps. But skills are transferable, anyway. |
| 19:56.34 | sjansen | Within strict limits. |
| 19:57.32 | levi | What, you're trying to say that the skill with Objective C and the NS class structure won't transfer well to Cocoa? Certainly details will be different, but the model is the same. |
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| 19:58.10 | levi | You admit you haven't even looked at Objective C, so I doubt you are familiar with the Cocoa and GNUstep library structures. |
| 19:58.28 | sjansen | Theory transferable. Large chunk of specific API, not transferable. Apple has added a lot of interesting tech that was never part of *Step. |
| 19:58.34 | bonez39 | I received an email today, about a health issue. The email alledgedly has some links which I as the reader can follow to find more about the issues discussed. But... |
| 19:59.01 | bonez39 | ...when I open this message in mutt, I see it say Click Here and yet there is no link there, even if I view it in text mode. |
| 19:59.22 | bonez39 | ...how do I view this message and find the links or how do I tell the sender that their email has STRIPPED out the links? |
| 19:59.23 | levi | sjansen: GNUStep has very little new stuff, and Cocoa retains the core NS stuff. So, nearly everything transfers from GNUStep to Cocoa. |
| 19:59.38 | sjansen | Assume you limit yourself to just core Cocoa. |
| 20:00.06 | sjansen | How many Mac apps do you think do that? Not the interesting ones. |
| 20:00.28 | levi | sjansen: You apparently are not listening to what either of us are actually saying. |
| 20:00.40 | sjansen | My problem is exactly that GNUstep has very little new stuff. |
| 20:01.06 | levi | I quote you, "Large chunk of specific API, not transferable". That is factually incorrect. Nearly all of GNUStep is transferable. |
| 20:01.15 | levi | It is true that you need to learn a lot more. |
| 20:01.22 | sjansen | I'm not interested in how easy it is to create a window, a button, etc. I'm interested in Apple cool font tech, it's Rendevouz support, etc... |
| 20:01.23 | levi | But those new class libraries are similar to the old ones in design. |
| 20:02.40 | sjansen | So I could learn GNUstep and know how to use a dying technology or easily switch to Cocoa. Or I could skip straight to Cocoa and creat cool apps that probably can't be brought back to GNUstep. |
| 20:03.03 | levi | So, tell me: What is the bulk of the work in learning a new development system? Is it in picking up the new class libraries that support the latest features, or is it learning the core language, development model, base libraries, how to structure your code, how to build GUIs, etc? |
| 20:03.36 | levi | sjansen: Dude, I'm not arguing that GNUStep has a lot of relevance. I said it has 'a sliver of relevance'. |
| 20:03.39 | sjansen | Learning lisp is harder than using lisp, of course. |
| 20:03.57 | levi | Cocoa would probably be a better choice, if you have access to it. |
| 20:04.07 | sjansen | But what's the point of learning lisp if I'm trying to create an app that has to implement integrate with a JMX solution? |
| 20:04.18 | levi | sjansen: You're setting up a straw man. |
| 20:04.30 | sjansen | If I know I depend on JMX, wouldn't it be smarter to just learn Java? |
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| 20:05.14 | sjansen | I'm saying unless things change radically, GNUstep is irrelevant and a waste of time. You're setting up the strawman with "you can use GNUstep to learn Cocoa". |
| 20:05.32 | goozbach | is it friday? |
| 20:05.32 | goozbach | sjansen doesn't usually tirade on any day but friday |
| 20:05.48 | sjansen | Or worse yet, "if you already know Cocoa, you know GNUstep". So? Big woopty! Why do I care? |
| 20:05.54 | levi | I never said that. I said that if you learn GNUstep for the sake of curiosity, or for whatever reason, most of that skill will transfer if you later decide to learn Cocoa. |
| 20:06.03 | levi | Thus, it is not entirely irrelevant. |
| 20:06.18 | levi | And you've been setting up all sorts of other supposed arguments for me and shooting them down. |
| 20:06.46 | levi | If you have the specific goal of learning Cocoa, just learn Cocoa, by all means. |
| 20:07.07 | levi | It would take an idiot to suggest learning GNUStep first is a good idea, and I'm certainly not advocating that. |
| 20:09.52 | Supaplex | that's the gnu copycat of nextstep? |
| 20:10.05 | Supaplex | so many lame wm, so little time... |
| 20:10.38 | klys | right, I advocate learning c++ first. that doesn't mean I advocate doing boring things with it first like making widgets |
| 20:11.05 | levi | Learning Minix , by your reasoning, would be a complete waste of time if you intended to become a Linux hacker. Minix is commercially irrelevant and you're never going to get a job hacking on it. |
| 20:11.55 | levi | However, I maintain that it's still relevant to some degree, because there's a pretty important set of OS theory and implementation concepts that you'll pick up by learning minix that you can later transfer to hacking Linux, if you should later desire to do so. |
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| 20:12.40 | sjansen | levi: So you don't disagree that GNUstep is irrelevant? Perhaps a fun curiosity, like memorizing Monty Python scripts, but probably not practical? |
| 20:12.47 | levi | Whether taking the time to learn minix is a good idea is largely dependant on your goals and circumstances. And, I would say the same is true for GNUstep. |
| 20:12.58 | levi | sjansen: GNUstep is certainly not commercially relevant. |
| 20:13.33 | levi | But learning it will give you skills, most of which will be transferable to Cocoa programming. But you shouldn't learn it if you really want to just learn Cocoa. |
| 20:13.49 | sinuhe | sjansen: First, I think your explanation as OpenStep (implimented in GNUstep) as a research project doesn't quite do it the justice it deserves. Second, regarding your comment regarding changing the world, I admit I'm in it for the fun, not to change the world. Third, I vaguely remember reading on Xanadu, but have forgot anything beyond that. Fourth... |
| 20:14.00 | klys | learning minix is probably not bad if you're actually taking the code snippets and using them in your own kernel like the author suggests |
| 20:15.27 | levi | sjansen: Most of the people who originally hacked on Linux had no idea that it would eventually become relevant, and were just doing it for fun. That doesn't make them complete wastes of time, because you both end up having fun and gaining skills that may be transferable to more 'relevant' jobs. |
| 20:16.11 | sinuhe | Fourth, windowmaker at least is used directly by the Darwin project and impliments windowing hints for the next NextStep and Aqua hints (or at least some of them). It attempts to be useable. GNUstep, however, is not really a desktop, as much as it is a development focus. |
| 20:16.11 | sinuhe | GNUstep's viability relies on OpenStep's *and* Aqua, though it could be argued that Aqua has supplanted its relevance. |
| 20:16.34 | klys | so what is viable? |
| 20:16.57 | levi | GNUStep hacking happens to have a skill set that is nearly a clean subset of Cocoa hacking, which makes the skills gained from it relevant. It doesn't change the relevance of the GNUStep project itself, though, which is pretty small. |
| 20:17.04 | klys | I want a file manager just like you would |
| 20:17.25 | *** part/#utah Supaplex (i=supaplex@166-70-62-199.ip.xmission.com) |
| 20:18.09 | klys | can't play politics with gui programs and get away with it |
| 20:18.27 | levi | can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding |
| 20:18.41 | levi | (I can play the non-sequitur game, too!) |
| 20:18.47 | sinuhe | As for antiquated, you seem to be caught in the "is it modern" variable loop that is nothing more than social clap trap. For me, the questions are, "Is it fun?" and, "Can I make it work for me?" |
| 20:19.26 | sinuhe | It all sounds like the normal BSD is dead mantra that is a bunch of bull, (though I did find amusement in a statement you made to me once about BSD reimplimenting 20th century technology). |
| 20:20.00 | klys | so I worry about my windowmanager in my spare time because most people have a good chance of voting for a derivative |
| 20:20.40 | klys | the derivative != the original, and both will be replaced |
| 20:20.55 | klys | gui programming is not a stable business model |
| 20:23.51 | levi | sjansen must be working or something. |
| 20:24.50 | sinuhe | s/you/sjansen/ |
| 20:24.50 | sinuhe | Hmmm...what happened to ibot? |
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| 20:28.03 | goozbach | yes it is |
| 20:28.19 | klys | it to your word |
| 20:29.43 | klys | on what is |
| 20:32.09 | herlo | goozbach: !!! Thank you so much for your help! |
| 20:32.20 | goozbach | herlo: I'm glad it worked |
| 20:32.26 | goozbach | I don't have any idea what I did |
| 20:32.29 | herlo | goozbach: Neverblock rocks. Answering questions at 2am is never fun! |
| 20:32.37 | goozbach | (I doubt I was even awake) |
| 20:32.45 | herlo | goozbach: haha, you called me back and everything |
| 20:32.49 | herlo | :) |
| 20:32.50 | goozbach | good |
| 20:32.57 | goozbach | so it did work |
| 20:33.03 | goozbach | and that REALLY did happen? |
| 20:33.12 | goozbach | thought it might have been a dream |
| 20:33.50 | herlo | haha, tx again |
| 20:35.20 | findlay | this is so stupid |
| 20:35.44 | klys | are you questioning someone's delight? |
| 20:35.48 | sinuhe | I think goozbach gets so caught up with caffeine drip, that when he actually does sleep, he is still response to the outside world. |
| 20:35.56 | sinuhe | s/with/with his/ |
| 20:36.19 | sinuhe | s/response/responsive/ |
| 20:36.23 | findlay | this MB's bios is gone the stupid manufacturer's site doesn't have a DOS flasher I can use on a floppy to reflash the bios. Meanwhile the computer won't boot the hard drive |
| 20:36.36 | klys | hmm |
| 20:36.58 | findlay | it has some stupid Live Flahser(R) or somthing dumb like that |
| 20:37.08 | klys | boot knoppix I guess. it doesn't have wine, but you can install grub on a floppy |
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| 20:37.29 | findlay | oh, and when I try to boot a livecd it kernel panics |
| 20:37.42 | klys | bad write? |
| 20:37.50 | findlay | some pci error |
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| 20:38.30 | klys | you want a grub boot floppy with freedos? |
| 20:38.42 | findlay | what good would that do me? |
| 20:38.46 | klys | grub install |
| 20:38.52 | findlay | there's nothing to flash the bios with |
| 20:38.57 | klys | hmm |
| 20:39.00 | findlay | there's nothing wrong with grub |
| 20:39.18 | klys | do you have a windows boot floppy? |
| 20:39.25 | findlay | effectively |
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| 20:42.29 | moriancu1er | does anyone else have a problem with Comcast all the time? |
| 20:42.34 | Tene | I do! |
| 20:42.35 | klys | used to |
| 20:42.51 | *** part/#utah moriancumer (n=jared@c-67-177-42-19.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 20:42.53 | klys | when I had comcast |
| 20:42.57 | findlay | no thanks to msi for having multiple convoluted product numbers for this MB |
| 20:43.14 | klys | use the one without the barcode, yeah |
| 20:43.17 | findlay | I have problems with comcast even though I don't have them |
| 20:43.38 | klys | because they don't relay smtp? |
| 20:43.53 | moriancu1er | findlay: lol |
| 20:44.39 | moriancu1er | I'm power cycling the modem daily |
| 20:44.45 | findlay | because they're autocratic and authoritarian and monopolistic |
| 20:44.53 | klys | you should file suit |
| 20:44.55 | findlay | mercilessly so |
| 20:45.10 | klys | make a petition |
| 20:45.21 | klys | class action petition |
| 20:45.24 | moriancu1er | they are the lesser evil to qwest |
| 20:45.43 | klys | well, qwest has to deal with inferior signal strength |
| 20:45.45 | sontek | moriancu1er: did you just get comcast? |
| 20:46.13 | sontek | moriancu1er: both me and my co-worker had to powercycle our modems daily for about a month after getting new service and then it just went away :p |
| 20:47.00 | moriancu1er | sontek: I've them for about a year and half and this issue has just started recently. |
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| 20:49.16 | vontrapp | it wasn't even starbucks that had the wireless earlier |
| 20:49.26 | vontrapp | and to think i bought a creme from them |
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| 21:19.47 | sjansen | RL got in the way of our discussion, but I'd like to point out that most of the hopeless cases that became relevant started out as fun projects that accidentally because relevant. For example, Linux. Unfortunately, GNUstep is the reverse. It started out as a serious response to *Step being interesting but closed the open then who knows what. GNUstep is closer to Xanadu than Linux, IMNSHO. |
| 21:21.01 | levi | sjansen: I agree, but that's beside the point. People who chose to hack on Linux in the beginning didn't do so because of the relevance of Linux. |
| 21:22.12 | levi | Even so, it would have been a perfectly fine avenue to take to learn how an OS kernel works. And that knowledge would have been relevant even if Linux didn't become so. |
| 21:22.14 | sjansen | What's beside the point? I think I haven't made my point obvious enough. It bugs me that people waste their time on irrelevant projects unaware they're irrelevant. |
| 21:22.58 | sjansen | If you know your irrelevant, no problem. Hack! Learn! Have fun! |
| 21:23.03 | levi | sjansen: Why does someone else's choice of how they spend their time bother you? |
| 21:23.14 | ^Migs^ | people's choices often PISS ME OFF |
| 21:23.22 | findlay | has anyone heard about my project to reverse-engineer all models of TI calculators? |
| 21:23.23 | sjansen | But if you think that implementing a better version of CVS is doing the world a favor, wake up. |
| 21:23.41 | ^Migs^ | yeah, CVS is perfect enough as it is |
| 21:23.56 | levi | Well, darcs and git did me a favor or two, at least. |
| 21:24.00 | findlay | it's way cool and relevant because once everybody finds out my stuff they will be able to flash their pocket calculators with my super advanced firmware! |
| 21:24.35 | sjansen | Because it's such a waste when smart programmers waste their time on useless projects. I'd prefer to see the OpenBSD community improving OpenBSD or OpenBSH or OpenNTP or whatever their pf replacement is called. It think it's really sad they waste their time on OpenCVS. |
| 21:25.16 | levi | sjansen: Useless to you. The projects are probably useful to the people working on them. |
| 21:25.20 | levi | sjansen: You're just being selfish. |
| 21:25.40 | sjansen | Darcs is a research project. Git is a radically innovative re-imagining of revision control. Making a better CVS is like polishing dog poop. |
| 21:26.11 | findlay | what's SVN in sjansen-rhetoric? |
| 21:26.18 | sjansen | CVS had it's day and I'm thankful for it, but I wish it had died faster. |
| 21:26.59 | sjansen | SVN was a good idea, but we need to let it die too. The future is distributed, and SVK isn't the future. |
| 21:27.27 | sjansen | Back when the only option was CVS or proprietary, SVN was a noble effort. |
| 21:28.09 | findlay | or arch |
| 21:28.10 | sjansen | SVN is still better than CVS, but it needs to become more distributed or be declared maintenance only. |
| 21:28.48 | ^Migs^ | so what's the BEST, sjansen? |
| 21:28.55 | findlay | I am |
| 21:28.58 | sjansen | Unfortunately, it was too hard to tell if arch was a brilliant idea or the ravings of a madman. |
| 21:29.19 | levi | As far as I'm concerned, Linux needs to be put out to pasture and something new and interesting brought in to replace it. |
| 21:29.29 | findlay | at least arch is legacy |
| 21:29.32 | sjansen | ^Migs^: I don't know. We're going to have to let the market pick a winner. The winner may not be best, but it'll be better than CVS or SVN. |
| 21:29.48 | findlay | BZR, duh |
| 21:29.52 | Jayce^ | if you use svn, it can be at least a little better with SVK |
| 21:29.54 | levi | Unix has had its day, already. Time for some innovation in systems software. |
| 21:30.08 | findlay | levi: Windows VISTA! |
| 21:30.19 | levi | findlay: I said innovation. |
| 21:30.22 | findlay | heh |
| 21:30.27 | ^Migs^ | I nominate DQM |
| 21:30.28 | sjansen | Best could be Hg, but I doubt it. Best could be Darcs, but probably won't be. Best could be bzr, and I hope so. But I'm starting to suspect git will win in the long term. |
| 21:30.35 | ^Migs^ | or PDQ |
| 21:30.39 | ^Migs^ | KJU |
| 21:30.49 | findlay | RJY |
| 21:30.54 | findlay | BVD |
| 21:30.55 | sjansen | TTYL |
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| 21:31.43 | findlay | this is most distressing |
| 21:31.55 | levi | What is? |
| 21:32.44 | ^Migs^ | ROFLWTFBBQLOLZPOTATOZ |
| 21:32.58 | findlay | this MB that will no longer boot |
| 21:33.15 | ^Migs^ | I added about 10000 courses to Moodle and all of a sudden it no longer works |
| 21:33.37 | findlay | levi: Apple seems willing to do interesting things with their stuff |
| 21:33.57 | rsimpkins | 812,756,878,012 KiB |
| 21:34.04 | rsimpkins | Oops. :) |
| 21:34.05 | ^Migs^ | http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/photos/5/2/6/1247625.jpg |
| 21:34.36 | rsimpkins | ^Migs^: rad |
| 21:35.08 | levi | findlay: Not at the low level. It's still essentially the same underpinnings that NeXT used years and years ago, with some changes at the mid-to-higher levels. |
| 21:35.49 | findlay | levi: well before the switched to the comodity hardware platform they used something other than a bios |
| 21:36.19 | levi | findlay: They used OpenFirmware, which is also nothing new. |
| 21:36.34 | levi | Cool, but not new. |
| 21:37.00 | findlay | I guess they can't try new stuff just for fun but have to think about making money with it |
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| 21:38.19 | levi | Yeah. They do tend to make sweeping changes more than Microsoft, but they haven't really done anything innovative at the system software level since NeXT. |
| 21:38.24 | levi | And that was a long time ago. |
| 21:39.02 | findlay | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:39.19 | findlay | I sound like a marketing guy using all these words |
| 21:39.58 | findlay | and what has OSS come up with? Everything else? Everything from copycat to the really esoteric stuff :) |
| 21:40.18 | goozbach | worst captcha ever? http://forum.compiz-fusion.org/register.php?do=addmember |
| 21:40.19 | levi | They may be moving into a position like that, but their current platform works well enough for them and they would prefer to differentiate at higher levels. |
| 21:40.46 | Tene | I see no captcha, goozbach |
| 21:40.56 | levi | OSS comes up with all sorts of interesting things, but most of them are research projects no one pays attention to because everyone is in love with Unix. |
| 21:41.07 | fozzmoo | goozbach: Maybe you need to take a screenshot. |
| 21:41.32 | fozzmoo | That's pretty bad. |
| 21:41.57 | fozzmoo | The form should say, "What do you think this says?" |
| 21:42.54 | Jayce^ | wow, are they using the full unicode set? |
| 21:42.56 | levi | Mine says, "kill fozzmoo" |
| 21:43.29 | levi | Or at least that's what the splotches look like to me. ;) |
| 21:43.39 | findlay | I see the opening bars to Beethoven's 4th symphony |
| 21:43.42 | fozzmoo | levi: Really? Mine says, "I'm in kingergarten and I just learned how to write my ABCs." |
| 21:43.58 | fozzmoo | s/kinger/kinder/ |
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| 21:44.26 | Jayce^ | KERMIT! |
| 21:44.56 | sjansen | Continuing the earlier discussion, I admit that getting annoyed when smart developers waste their time on stupid projects is selfish. |
| 21:45.06 | sjansen | And I ask what's wrong with being selfish? |
| 21:45.59 | sjansen | Let's say an amazing chef runs a restaurant down the street. One day he decide his true calling is painting dog playing poker. Wouldn't that annoy you? |
| 21:46.10 | sjansen | Especially if the chef used to give you free food? |
| 21:46.29 | sjansen | Even if he offered to give you free velvet paintings of dogs play poker? |
| 21:46.59 | findlay | has redbeard2 taken up painting card-wielding dogs? |
| 21:47.48 | elg | sjansen: who has decided to go off and spend their lives painting fish murals on sidewalks? |
| 21:50.10 | sjansen | GNUstep, OpenCVS, most anyone that thinks creating yet another Linux distro is actually a good idea |
| 21:50.55 | findlay | what about Hurd? Will no one think of it anymore? |
| 21:51.06 | ^Migs^ | we need mheath! |
| 21:51.29 | levi | It is, at least, not Unix. But no one is really interested in it. |
| 21:51.57 | sjansen | I think Haskell is the perfect example of how to swim against the stream. |
| 21:52.25 | sjansen | They started out as a research project with some pragmatic goals: reduce duplication of effort while exploring new ideas. |
| 21:52.38 | *** part/#utah ^Migs^ (n=migs@205.122.50.69) |
| 21:53.20 | sjansen | Things turned out so well cutting edge developers started doing real work with Haskell, so the Haskell developers made a deliberate decision to become more relevant. |
| 21:54.01 | sjansen | They recognized that in order to be relevant you have to have support for common standards, infrastructure for community modules, etc. |
| 21:54.24 | levi | sjansen: Also, you have to be lucky and have good timing. |
| 21:55.06 | levi | The effort to make Haskell practical has coincided with an increased interest in functional programming. |
| 21:55.45 | sjansen | Contrast that to irrelevant projects. They think mindless dedication to idealist goals is better than acknowledging change. In less general terms: If your MUA can't handle HTML email, it might be irrelevant. No matter how evil HTML email may be. |
| 21:56.04 | Tene | sjansen: if you knew more about what's going on with Perl 6 development, I'd be interested to hear what you had to say about it. |
| 21:56.36 | sjansen | Based on what little I know about Perl 6, it's exciting. Perl's got some great tech and I enjoy using it. |
| 21:57.15 | sjansen | But sometimes it reminds me of C++. Incredibly messy and unmanageably complicated. |
| 21:57.38 | levi | Yeah, you can overload +. ;) |
| 21:57.55 | levi | Which is apparently a pet peeve of sjansen. |
| 21:58.08 | findlay | what's '+.'? |
| 21:58.10 | sjansen | I've read the apocolyses and the exagesis. I like that they're cleaning some things up. Other things sound like they're taking TIMTOWTDI too far. |
| 21:58.29 | findlay | ~python sjansen |
| 21:58.30 | ibot | ACTION sends a jittery python to attack sjansen. |
| 21:58.33 | levi | findlay: Well, '+.' is the floating point addition operator in OCaml. I meant '+', though. |
| 21:58.43 | findlay | oh |
| 21:58.44 | sjansen | Parrot would be great, if only they could get other communities to adopt it. |
| 21:58.52 | Tene | Their plan is basically to reduce the "unmanageably", not the "complicated". |
| 22:00.32 | levi | I think Perl 6 is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's something I'll choose to use for personal projects. |
| 22:01.02 | findlay | braincrap should be good enough for anyone |
| 22:05.21 | sjansen | levi: BTW, I don't mind overloading +. I do mind abusing + to do complicated, stupid things. |
| 22:05.51 | levi | sjansen: Well, you can't really blame C++ for people doing stupid things with it. |
| 22:06.31 | sjansen | If I can blame PHP for encouraging a braid dead culture, I should be able to do the same with C++. |
| 22:07.27 | sjansen | Don't get me wrong, I respect the Bjarne Stroustroup. Great idea, made the world better. But it's time to move on. |
| 22:07.48 | levi | Except I don't think C++ or its community really encourage that sort of thing. |
| 22:08.21 | sjansen | Unfortunately, and this would have been hard to predict until giving things a try, C++ make some stupid decisions. Too complicated, too opaque. |
| 22:08.27 | findlay | I must have fried the PCI controller :( |
| 22:08.50 | findlay | because the bios is fine and the livecd complains about pci errors |
| 22:09.45 | levi | sjansen: I'm not sure if its problem is too much opaqueness or if it's not enough. |
| 22:09.47 | sjansen | The complication of C++ encourages developers with bad taste to do stupid things because it isn't always obvious what is good and what is bad. |
| 22:10.12 | sjansen | Both, actually. The mixture of abstraction. |
| 22:10.39 | sjansen | It shouldn't be possible to do anything really stupid until you know the language well enough to know better. |
| 22:11.01 | levi | Anyway, C++ still has a place for expert programmers. But I don't think it should be used by the masses. |
| 22:11.38 | sjansen | Perl suffers they same weakness. Brilliant C++ and Perl programmers exist, but the languages have a bad reputation because so much bad amateur code exists. |
| 22:11.43 | levi | And I would be happy to see a replacement for it in the realm of systems programming. |
| 22:12.19 | levi | Well, close-to-the-metal systems programming. |
| 22:12.46 | sjansen | I'm not a big fan of Java, but at least it had the right ideaL Most programmers aren't very good at what they do so don't let the do anything too stupid. |
| 22:14.29 | sjansen | Haskell is the exact opposite. Amateurs will probably never be writing Haskell. But based on what I've seen so far, once I actually know enough Haskell to write a 5000+ line program, it'll probably be pretty good because it forces me to think carefully at such a high level. |
| 22:14.40 | sjansen | Assuming I'm smart enough to learn that much Haskell. |
| 22:14.44 | levi | The fact remains though that there are some domains where there's no good replacement for C++. |
| 22:14.44 | Tene | xmonad! |
| 22:15.49 | levi | So it can't just be universally deprecated. |
| 22:15.57 | sjansen | levi: If you're going to make that argument, you'll have to admit there's no good replacement for C. |
| 22:15.59 | levi | As much as I'd like it to be. |
| 22:16.13 | sjansen | Sure it can. In fact, it has. C++ is going the way of C. |
| 22:16.49 | levi | sjansen: C++ would be the replacement for C, though I wouldn't call it 'good'. |
| 22:16.59 | sjansen | Although I'm not sure close-to-the-hardware should be done with anything so complicated as C++. Better a subset of C++. |
| 22:17.12 | levi | A subset of C++ is still C++. |
| 22:17.32 | sjansen | Or almost Java. |
| 22:17.34 | sjansen | Or almost D. |
| 22:17.41 | sjansen | Or almost C. |
| 22:17.45 | sjansen | You get the idea. |
| 22:18.05 | levi | But it /is/ C++. |
| 22:18.58 | levi | Given the choice to implement an embedded system from scratch, I'd pick C++ over C in a heartbeat. |
| 22:19.01 | sjansen | No. It /is/ C with a complicated pre-processor. ;-) |
| 22:19.12 | *** join/#utah Supaplex (i=supaplex@166-70-62-199.ip.xmission.com) |
| 22:20.29 | levi | Anyway, besides C, what alternatives are there when you haven't got the resources for a virtual machine or large runtime? |
| 22:20.50 | Supaplex | assembler |
| 22:21.01 | levi | Supaplex: That's going in the wrong direction. |
| 22:22.12 | levi | I'm talking about writing low-level system software that needs to have manual control over at least some of its memory allocation and layout, as well as having facilities for abstraction, without a lot of language-imposed overhead. |
| 22:22.44 | levi | C++ /can/ introduce overhead, but it was carefully designed so that you can avoid that overhead if you need to. |
| 22:22.53 | sjansen | I don't know Ocaml, but I've heard people I respect wish it could be used instead of C. |
| 22:22.54 | levi | The 'pay for what you need' philosophy. |
| 22:23.46 | levi | sjansen: I know OCaml, and I respect it, but it's got a pretty hefty runtime associated with it and doesn't have any facility for manual control over memory allocation and layout. |
| 22:23.56 | levi | It is very speedy, though. |
| 22:24.12 | sjansen | Ah, too bad, the implication seemed to be that careful Ocaml could have that control. |
| 22:25.07 | findlay | what about something like scheme? |
| 22:25.14 | Supaplex | my vote is in. cinnamon teddy grahams is it. mmmm |
| 22:25.21 | levi | Well, you can have some degree of control by avoiding creating closures and such, but that's even less straightforward than avoiding the overhead in C++. |
| 22:26.24 | levi | findlay: Something based on scheme could possibly fit the bill, but there's nothing available and mature enough to actually use, and it would have the same resource control issues as OCaml. |
| 22:27.44 | levi | In C++, you can see where everything gets allocated and freed and where just by following the source code. Sometimes you have to dig for it, but it's all there. In Scheme and OCaml, memory allocation is implicit, and you just have to know where the implementation will do the allocation and where it won't. |
| 22:28.12 | levi | And neither Scheme nor OCaml provide any facilities for manually allocating and freeing memory. |
| 22:28.23 | findlay | why is memory/resource allocation that important? |
| 22:28.37 | sjansen | embedded |
| 22:28.39 | levi | findlay: Because resources are finite. |
| 22:29.01 | sjansen | On really small systems and really big systems it's important to pay attention. |
| 22:29.05 | Supaplex | uclibc too big? :P |
| 22:29.11 | levi | findlay: If that finite amount is fairly large, automatic garbage collection does a good job of taking care of things, and is getting better. |
| 22:29.15 | sjansen | Not everyone is writting yet another blogging app. |
| 22:29.21 | findlay | and you can't just expect the language to take care of that? :) |
| 22:29.49 | levi | For applications programming, it's reasonable to expect the language/runtime to take care of that. |
| 22:29.51 | Supaplex | I expect $subordinate to |
| 22:30.06 | levi | But how are you going to write the garbage collector? |
| 22:30.30 | Supaplex | let the city do it ;) |
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| 22:32.17 | *** mode/#utah [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:33.39 | levi | Anyway, people have written operating systems in Lisp, Haskell, etc., but they're not the sort of operating systems you'd be able to fit in a little gadget. |
| 22:34.03 | sjansen | Exactly. That's my point. Just ask TimRiker, he'll confirm it. |
| 22:35.24 | levi | AFAIK, he writes his embedded stuff in straight C. That works, as does C++, but I still would like something better. |
| 22:37.27 | *** join/#utah media (n=media@65.48.77.206) |
| 22:37.48 | media | RyanE: Ping |
| 22:38.48 | Supaplex | avr c :) |
| 22:39.53 | media | Hmm, where's a c4 guru when ya need em. ;) |
| 22:40.04 | Tene | explosives? |
| 22:40.10 | media | control4. ;) |
| 22:40.28 | media | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:59.39 | Shadowwire | ~logout |
| 23:00.56 | sjansen | http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2007/08/15/a-bright-future-security-and-modern-type-systems |
| 23:03.23 | levi | sjansen: Here's a version of Scheme that can be used for efficient low-level programming: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/papers/cs/210/ftp:zSzzSzftp.nj.nec.comzSzpubzSzkelseyzSzprescheme.pdf/kelsey97prescheme.pdf |
| 23:04.00 | levi | It has a working implementation that's freely available, but its only real use now is compiling the scheme48 virtual machine. |
| 23:05.33 | levi | It's the sort of language I'd like to see adapted for broad use. It wouldn't have to have Scheme syntax; something like metalua with the same kind of pre-scheme-like limitations would be fine with me. |
| 23:06.32 | levi | Time for home. |
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| 23:38.15 | klys | man, 2.5 hrs, not bad for a day's nap |
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